| In the first half of the season, the struggles of rookie left tackle Andrew Thomas were very well-documented and outright mystifying to those who saw him play at the University of Georgia. Pro Football Focus credited him with surrendering 36 pressures and a lowly 45.3 pass blocking grade, and the eye test showed him to be a pass protection liability frequently beat by inside moves. But over the last four games, Pro Football Focus now notes that Thomas has shown significant improvement: He has allowed only eight pressures in the last four games, and his pass blocking grade has improved to 69.6. |
Nice little article on our first round draft pick.
Thomas Improvement - (
New Window )
I'd assume its over the past 4 games, either way, he's better now than he was before.
Just wait until he gives up a sack, they will all be back then.
That’s what it sounds like to me too
Quote:
"He has allowed only eight pressures in the last four games, and his pass blocking grade has improved to 69.6."
I'd assume its over the past 4 games, either way, he's better now than he was before.
The question is is it improved to overall 69.6 or just over the 4 games. My guess it's the 4 games because he'd probably need a really high average over the 4 games to get it up there overall.
1) I just saw this thead, been busy
2) I never one who said Thomas was a bust. I vertainly felt there needed to be more time before evaluating him. It is not uncommon for rookies to struggle but come on later.
3) I agree Thomas is much, much better. But he was starting from such a low bar that much, much better still leaves him in the lower 1/3 or so of starting tackles. He still has a ways to go.
I felt it was premature, and honestly it still is.
Thomas was high up on my draft wish list. And I am pleased the DG finally drafted some OL. That doesn't change my opinion of DG. Something that was obvious to a fan behind a keyboard shouldn't have taken him 3 off seasons to get around to doing.
Wk1. 53.8 PBLK/64.7 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/4 HUR
Wk2. 52.5 PBLK/47.4 RBLK | 1 SK/1 HIT/3 HUR
Wk3. 51.5 PBLK/58.0 RBLK | 0 SK/2 HIT/2 HUR
Wk4. 53.0 PBLK/44.9 RBLK | 2 SK/0 HIT/4 HUR
Wk5. 31.7 PBLK/73.7 RBLK | 1 SK/0 HIT/8 HUR
Wk6. 56.2 PBLK/79.5 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/3 HUR
Wk7. 40.2 PBLK/73.3 RBLK | 1 SK/1 HIT/3 HUR
Wk8. 72.2 PBLK/59.3 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/3 HUR
Wk9. 66.4 PBLK/58.2 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/1 HUR
Wk10. 64.0 PBLK/40.0 RBLK | 1 SK/2 HIT/1 HUR
Wk12. 67.3 PBLK/59.5 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/0 HUR
Wk1. 53.8 PBLK/64.7 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/4 HUR
Wk2. 52.5 PBLK/47.4 RBLK | 1 SK/1 HIT/3 HUR
Wk3. 51.5 PBLK/58.0 RBLK | 0 SK/2 HIT/2 HUR
Wk4. 53.0 PBLK/44.9 RBLK | 2 SK/0 HIT/4 HUR
Wk5. 31.7 PBLK/73.7 RBLK | 1 SK/0 HIT/8 HUR
Wk6. 56.2 PBLK/79.5 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/3 HUR
Wk7. 40.2 PBLK/73.3 RBLK | 1 SK/1 HIT/3 HUR
Wk8. 72.2 PBLK/59.3 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/3 HUR
Wk9. 66.4 PBLK/58.2 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/1 HUR
Wk10. 64.0 PBLK/40.0 RBLK | 1 SK/2 HIT/1 HUR
Wk12. 67.3 PBLK/59.5 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/0 HUR
I believe that was the first game Lemieux started. I think Lemieux has looked really good and maybe some of Thomas' improvement can be attributed to him? I think Hernandez has been absolutely atrocious this year, and imagine that hurt Thomas.
Just like, “I don’t care how we do it, I just want to be in contention by Thanksgiving!” And then, it became, “yeah but, look who we beat and we play in the NFC Least.”
I believe that was the first game Lemieux started. I think Lemieux has looked really good and maybe some of Thomas' improvement can be attributed to him? I think Hernandez has been absolutely atrocious this year, and imagine that hurt Thomas.
Good observation, that's exactly right.
EXACTLY!!
I felt it was premature, and honestly it still is.
Thomas was high up on my draft wish list. And I am pleased the DG finally drafted some OL. That doesn't change my opinion of DG. Something that was obvious to a fan behind a keyboard shouldn't have taken him 3 off seasons to get around to doing.
Mcl, you are too bright to be dark.....you make it sound like DG hasn’t been doing anything for 3 seasons fixing up the OL. Let’s look at this again...
Offseason 1, he went after Norrell in FA, but lost out. He took Solder seeing that he was the BPA. As I recall at that time, no one was moaning and groaning over him either. Plus, he played tackle, not guard, so we were happy.
2018
Solder....FA tackle
He also drafted Hernandez, who everybody loved that pick.
During the season he picked up the following:
JBrown....everyone loved, played very well
Omameh.....we weren’t sure about
Pulley.....starter on Chargers, but uncertain
Chad Wheeler....another hopeful drafted late
2019:
He picked up
MRemmers....not a bad stop gap tackle
Halapio....hopeful center, but got injured
Zeitler.....an all pro from Cleveland.
Solder and Hernandez round the line out
Gates.....was drafted, and as you can see, not a bad pick
2020
The whole world knows what he has done....nothing short of SPECTACULAR
Conclusion: If you believe he should have drafted OL in the top 3 rounds in 2018 and 2019 like he did in 2020, then that is a fair debatable point. Were the OL guys coming out those years as good as the ones we got this year? He did draft Hernandez high up in 2018 but I think maybe he didn’t draft someone high up in 2019 because he traded for Zeitler and picked up Remmers. And of course, we went DJ and Sexy Dexy in our first two picks....both huge needs too. I think we were locked into Solder and of course we all were hoping for Hernandez to improve in year 2.
But as you can see, DG was very busy in all 3 offseasons trying to firm up the Hog Mollies....it just took some time. And don’t forget, we had a ton of other pressing needs to plug in.
Lastly, I don’t think 3 years is a long time to rebuild a football team. I think the feeling was in 2018 to not rebuild but to give Eli one more chance...it didn’t work out.
My gut tells me a guy the size of Becton is destined to spend a lot of time in the training room and most likely develop some chronic issues that hold him back. I have nothing to back that up except for the fact he has already spent time on the injury list.
Quote:
Something definitely clicked Week 8 it seems.
Wk1. 53.8 PBLK/64.7 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/4 HUR
Wk2. 52.5 PBLK/47.4 RBLK | 1 SK/1 HIT/3 HUR
Wk3. 51.5 PBLK/58.0 RBLK | 0 SK/2 HIT/2 HUR
Wk4. 53.0 PBLK/44.9 RBLK | 2 SK/0 HIT/4 HUR
Wk5. 31.7 PBLK/73.7 RBLK | 1 SK/0 HIT/8 HUR
Wk6. 56.2 PBLK/79.5 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/3 HUR
Wk7. 40.2 PBLK/73.3 RBLK | 1 SK/1 HIT/3 HUR
Wk8. 72.2 PBLK/59.3 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/3 HUR
Wk9. 66.4 PBLK/58.2 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/1 HUR
Wk10. 64.0 PBLK/40.0 RBLK | 1 SK/2 HIT/1 HUR
Wk12. 67.3 PBLK/59.5 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/0 HUR
I believe that was the first game Lemieux started. I think Lemieux has looked really good and maybe some of Thomas' improvement can be attributed to him? I think Hernandez has been absolutely atrocious this year, and imagine that hurt Thomas.
Hernandez has not been atrocious this year. Actually he was one of our best ol before getting covid. Thomas has played better because he improved his fundamentals.
Lemieux has gotten better each game but he was pretty bad the first game. Let's hope that continues.
It boggles my mind that so many people here shit on good players.
That’s clearly coaching plus reps.
Quote:
about Thomas before my post above.
I felt it was premature, and honestly it still is.
Thomas was high up on my draft wish list. And I am pleased the DG finally drafted some OL. That doesn't change my opinion of DG. Something that was obvious to a fan behind a keyboard shouldn't have taken him 3 off seasons to get around to doing.
Mcl, you are too bright to be dark.....you make it sound like DG hasn’t been doing anything for 3 seasons fixing up the OL. Let’s look at this again...
Offseason 1, he went after Norrell in FA, but lost out. He took Solder seeing that he was the BPA. As I recall at that time, no one was moaning and groaning over him either. Plus, he played tackle, not guard, so we were happy.
2018
Solder....FA tackle
He also drafted Hernandez, who everybody loved that pick.
During the season he picked up the following:
JBrown....everyone loved, played very well
Omameh.....we weren’t sure about
Pulley.....starter on Chargers, but uncertain
Chad Wheeler....another hopeful drafted late
2019:
He picked up
MRemmers....not a bad stop gap tackle
Halapio....hopeful center, but got injured
Zeitler.....an all pro from Cleveland.
Solder and Hernandez round the line out
Gates.....was drafted, and as you can see, not a bad pick
2020
The whole world knows what he has done....nothing short of SPECTACULAR
Conclusion: If you believe he should have drafted OL in the top 3 rounds in 2018 and 2019 like he did in 2020, then that is a fair debatable point. Were the OL guys coming out those years as good as the ones we got this year? He did draft Hernandez high up in 2018 but I think maybe he didn’t draft someone high up in 2019 because he traded for Zeitler and picked up Remmers. And of course, we went DJ and Sexy Dexy in our first two picks....both huge needs too. I think we were locked into Solder and of course we all were hoping for Hernandez to improve in year 2.
But as you can see, DG was very busy in all 3 offseasons trying to firm up the Hog Mollies....it just took some time. And don’t forget, we had a ton of other pressing needs to plug in.
Lastly, I don’t think 3 years is a long time to rebuild a football team. I think the feeling was in 2018 to not rebuild but to give Eli one more chance...it didn’t work out.
I've said many times that the draft is where you have to go to find good OL. Teams don't allow good OL reach FA anymore. They are too valuable.
Lets look more closely at that list of "attempts" to fix the OL.
2018: Needed to replace 100% of the OL. Wasted money on failed FA. Traded away a functional center. Got lucky on the waiver wire, and had 1 ok draft choice. Relied on non-functional players at C and RT. Both replaced (1 injured, 1 released) in season. Horrible roster construction decisions.
Norwell - a High Priced FA that has busted since then (not signed)
Solder - Signed to a horrible contract, FA Bust
Hernandez - Yay a draft pick, has been barely passable
J. Brown - Waiver pickup, lucky to get him, would have been cheap to resign, played decent, inexplicably let him walk in FA
Omameh - FA MASSIVE BUST
Gates - UDFA (not drafted), lucky signing and good development, UDFA's that make it are pure luck
Pulley - FA Bust (didn't live up to his not too expensive contract)
*Chad Wheeler was a UDFA in 2017, was not brought in by DG. However DG depended on him to man a starting tackle position. He was awful, not worth a roster spot. After years in the league the best he can do is a practice squad spot.
2019: More not very good FA, still relying on a non-functional C, wasted trade bait on a position that could have been filled by resigning a cheap J Brown. Picked up a player that played about the same and paid twice as much.
Remmers - meh, FA not very good
*Halapio was a 2016 signing, not brought in by DG. Beyond awful player. Didn't deserve an NFL roster spot. Instead DG wanted him to start. Not in the league at the moment.
Zeitler - Trade, has been average since here (we could have had J Brown and gotten about the same level of play without giving up players and less money)
*Gates was 2018 not 2019
2020 - Finally some draft pickups!!! What took so long??? That said the jury is still out, can't say it was "SPECTACULAR" yet. That's unwarranted hyperbole. Actually the best thing was dumping the old non-functional C, and getting lucky after several years of development with a UDFA. Still brought in yet another sucky FA RT.
Fleming: FA BUST
Thomas: #4 pick in the draft, hasn't lived up to draft position, but getting better and showing potential.
Peart: Has flashed, not starting but shows potential
Lemieux: Up and down, not starting, may have potential
Overall, DG's efforts have been punctuated by numerous forays into FA that busted and wasted money. Having good luck in UDFA and waivers (and either never realizing the luck, or taking years to realize the luck), And wasting trade resources when it wasn't necessary. And 3 off-seasons to finally use some draft capital and see improvement, when his first year he had the opportunity to draft multiple premium choices in the deepest OL draft in over a decade. This is hardly what I would call a good effort, or even a good faith effort. This was hot garbage until either DG realized that another OL failure would mean getting fired, or Judge realized such. Arguing that DG was making a good effort to fix the OL is a losing argument. His decision making was atrocious.
How does one live up to #4 pick draft position 11 games into his career?
Quote:
Something definitely clicked Week 8 it seems.
Wk1. 53.8 PBLK/64.7 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/4 HUR
Wk2. 52.5 PBLK/47.4 RBLK | 1 SK/1 HIT/3 HUR
Wk3. 51.5 PBLK/58.0 RBLK | 0 SK/2 HIT/2 HUR
Wk4. 53.0 PBLK/44.9 RBLK | 2 SK/0 HIT/4 HUR
Wk5. 31.7 PBLK/73.7 RBLK | 1 SK/0 HIT/8 HUR
Wk6. 56.2 PBLK/79.5 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/3 HUR
Wk7. 40.2 PBLK/73.3 RBLK | 1 SK/1 HIT/3 HUR
Wk8. 72.2 PBLK/59.3 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/3 HUR
Wk9. 66.4 PBLK/58.2 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/1 HUR
Wk10. 64.0 PBLK/40.0 RBLK | 1 SK/2 HIT/1 HUR
Wk12. 67.3 PBLK/59.5 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/0 HUR
I believe that was the first game Lemieux started. I think Lemieux has looked really good and maybe some of Thomas' improvement can be attributed to him? I think Hernandez has been absolutely atrocious this year, and imagine that hurt Thomas.
However, this isn't isolated to Hernandez. I can't see how in the first week of starting Lemieux would have that much of a positive impact on Thomas. It has certainly helped and they are combining to make the left side pretty darn good against the run. I think OC is also a factor. Gates has steadily improved, so perhaps line calls and blocking calls have vastly improved as well.
Either way, we are starting to have the look of a very solid OL. That is why I feel it is important to get Peart in the starting lineup this year. That would leave only 1 question, in Hernandez vs. Zeitler at RG. I still think Hernandez has the potential and I like that he's younger. It would seem Zeitler really isn't in their plans and would be a likely cap casualty this off season. But, that is up to the coaches. I wouldn't mind seeing Hernandez at RG for more than a series, like last week, though.
IMO, Fleming has been bad enough that at least over the first half, he failed to live up to even that small contract. Seems to be playing a bit better lately, but that may be more a function of the competition.
Quote:
Thomas: #4 pick in the draft, hasn't lived up to draft position, but getting better and showing potential.
How does one live up to #4 pick draft position 11 games into his career?
Uh, in case you didn't notice Thomas was absolutely atrocious the first half. While I expect and can live with rookie struggles, that performance failed to live up to even the lowest bar you would set for the #4 pick in the draft. That said, I was always willing and still am willing to give him more time. Things like this happen with rookies. He has made good improvement. There needs to be more. He is playing now at a level I would expect for a #4 pick to be playing at from day 1. It just took 8 games for him to get there. Of course we all know about the issues with Columbo and Judge regarding his technique... So... Maybe the coach was the problem. Thus he gets more time.
Quote:
If you expected more than below average starter from a OT signing a 1 yr/$3.4M deal, then it's your expectations that are busted. That's low end starter/backup swing tackle money.
IMO, Fleming has been bad enough that at least over the first half, he failed to live up to even that small contract. Seems to be playing a bit better lately, but that may be more a function of the competition.
He wasn't signed with the expectation that he would be a starter.
And yes, I agree he probably felt desperation sink in this past offseason which is why we got the OL Strategy that underpinned this past draft. This was the biggest flaw in the team and his poor decisions in this area were also killing the potential careers of Barkley and Jones, his two "franchise" picks. He had to draft at least 3 O-lineman, including two Tackles and he still needed the Gates experiment to bear fruit at Center to boot. It actually had to happen...think about that.
Quite frankly, thank the lord we are seeing some improvement. But to see the progress the Giants have had this season with their OL, including Gates, and calling it "fixed" is way too premature. This line has a ways to go in terms of development before we can suggest it is a strength in run & pass. And to convert that premature thinking into the main reason to keep Gettleman on further as GM is also eye-rolling to me which has been suggested as of late.
And lastly, save me the "no GM gets every decision right" speech as well. The NYG franchise shouldn't have to rely on pure desperation just to put together a functioning Offensive Line after several years on the job. At that point I actually can't conclude the GM did anything really well...it's that he finally got lucky.
And yes, I agree he probably felt desperation sink in this past offseason which is why we got the OL Strategy that underpinned this past draft. This was the biggest flaw in the team and his poor decisions in this area were also killing the potential careers of Barkley and Jones, his two "franchise" picks. He had to draft at least 3 O-lineman, including two Tackles and he still needed the Gates experiment to bear fruit at Center to boot. It actually had to happen...think about that.
Quite frankly, thank the lord we are seeing some improvement. But to see the progress the Giants have had this season with their OL, including Gates, and calling it "fixed" is way too premature. This line has a ways to go in terms of development before we can suggest it is a strength in run & pass. And to convert that premature thinking into the main reason to keep Gettleman on further as GM is also eye-rolling to me which has been suggested as of late.
And lastly, save me the "no GM gets every decision right" speech as well. The NYG franchise shouldn't have to rely on pure desperation just to put together a functioning Offensive Line after several years on the job. At that point I actually can't conclude the GM did anything really well...it's that he finally got lucky.
Agreed LBH, the posts above are picking on picayune details and missing the bigger picture that I was trying to paint, but that you summarized well.
THe constant thought I have in my head regarding DG and the OL this year is... Even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut.
Quote:
I agree completely with the sentiment that Gettleman has not done well at all in his decision making with respect to this critical area. Definitely not for a lack of effort, but the process still resulted in poor decisions and results which is really all that should matter in grading DG and determining if he should be trusted further in this capacity.
And yes, I agree he probably felt desperation sink in this past offseason which is why we got the OL Strategy that underpinned this past draft. This was the biggest flaw in the team and his poor decisions in this area were also killing the potential careers of Barkley and Jones, his two "franchise" picks. He had to draft at least 3 O-lineman, including two Tackles and he still needed the Gates experiment to bear fruit at Center to boot. It actually had to happen...think about that.
Quite frankly, thank the lord we are seeing some improvement. But to see the progress the Giants have had this season with their OL, including Gates, and calling it "fixed" is way too premature. This line has a ways to go in terms of development before we can suggest it is a strength in run & pass. And to convert that premature thinking into the main reason to keep Gettleman on further as GM is also eye-rolling to me which has been suggested as of late.
And lastly, save me the "no GM gets every decision right" speech as well. The NYG franchise shouldn't have to rely on pure desperation just to put together a functioning Offensive Line after several years on the job. At that point I actually can't conclude the GM did anything really well...it's that he finally got lucky.
Agreed LBH, the posts above are picking on picayune details and missing the bigger picture that I was trying to paint, but that you summarized well.
THe constant thought I have in my head regarding DG and the OL this year is... Even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut.
5 nuts in 2 years in pretty good. Gates was some real digging. Thomas, Hernandez, Lemieux, Peart, Gates is not bad. And Fleming as the backup where he belongs will be fine. And for the first time in years they're a well coached unit.
Quote:
In comment 15065947 LBH15 said:
Quote:
I agree completely with the sentiment that Gettleman has not done well at all in his decision making with respect to this critical area. Definitely not for a lack of effort, but the process still resulted in poor decisions and results which is really all that should matter in grading DG and determining if he should be trusted further in this capacity.
And yes, I agree he probably felt desperation sink in this past offseason which is why we got the OL Strategy that underpinned this past draft. This was the biggest flaw in the team and his poor decisions in this area were also killing the potential careers of Barkley and Jones, his two "franchise" picks. He had to draft at least 3 O-lineman, including two Tackles and he still needed the Gates experiment to bear fruit at Center to boot. It actually had to happen...think about that.
Quite frankly, thank the lord we are seeing some improvement. But to see the progress the Giants have had this season with their OL, including Gates, and calling it "fixed" is way too premature. This line has a ways to go in terms of development before we can suggest it is a strength in run & pass. And to convert that premature thinking into the main reason to keep Gettleman on further as GM is also eye-rolling to me which has been suggested as of late.
And lastly, save me the "no GM gets every decision right" speech as well. The NYG franchise shouldn't have to rely on pure desperation just to put together a functioning Offensive Line after several years on the job. At that point I actually can't conclude the GM did anything really well...it's that he finally got lucky.
Agreed LBH, the posts above are picking on picayune details and missing the bigger picture that I was trying to paint, but that you summarized well.
THe constant thought I have in my head regarding DG and the OL this year is... Even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut.
5 nuts in 2 years in pretty good. Gates was some real digging. Thomas, Hernandez, Lemieux, Peart, Gates is not bad. And Fleming as the backup where he belongs will be fine. And for the first time in years they're a well coached unit.
First of all it's been 3 years, not 2. Second of all the jury is still out on the 2020 rookies. Lets talk in 2022...
Plus Hernandez and Thomas are premium picks, with Thomas an uber premium pick. Zeitler was an expensive trade deal, Those are expected to be hits. The blind squirrel was handed those nuts. So far the only nut that I can give credit for is Gates, and finding a nut among UDFAs is just pure luck. Certainly no credit for Fleming or Solder. Many thought that Flowers showed potential during his rookie year, gutting out on a bad ankle. Turns out, that was the best he ever played at T, it was downhill from there. It's possible the same happens to these rookies. I certainly hope not, but we have to wait to find out.
Much better coaching seems to be another factor. How much of the improved line play is due to coaching and how much is due to better players. I tend to think the coaching has had more impact than player quality.
By the way, Gates had not only been an improvement in the blocking aspect of C play, he clearly has been doing a much better job of calling the blocking schemes. We see far few stunts and blitzes confusing them. Hernandez and Zeitler seem to know who to block. That make a huge difference. It's why I always say that while a good left tackle is of importance 1A along the OL, C is 1B.
People were ripping Thomas as if he is Ereck flowers 2.0 by Week 2 of the season.
But hey, if we want to talk positives - we have to wait until 2022. Sounds reasonable.
By the way, Gates had not only been an improvement in the blocking aspect of C play, he clearly has been doing a much better job of calling the blocking schemes. We see far few stunts and blitzes confusing them. Hernandez and Zeitler seem to know who to block. That make a huge difference. It's why I always say that while a good left tackle is of importance 1A along the OL, C is 1B.
These guys may not be headed to the Pro Bowl, but this is the first season in years where the OL has improved during the season. Judge clearly knows how to coach by identifying and fixing problems.
People were ripping Thomas as if he is Ereck flowers 2.0 by Week 2 of the season.
But hey, if we want to talk positives - we have to wait until 2022. Sounds reasonable.
I never ripped Thomas or any of the other rookies. So you are addressing the wrong person
Quote:
drinking sand for the past decade when it come to OL play. Even below average play looks like pro bowl level to us. These guys are still performing below average, especially all the rookies. So let's not go counting the pro bowl votes for these guys before they've hatched.
By the way, Gates had not only been an improvement in the blocking aspect of C play, he clearly has been doing a much better job of calling the blocking schemes. We see far few stunts and blitzes confusing them. Hernandez and Zeitler seem to know who to block. That make a huge difference. It's why I always say that while a good left tackle is of importance 1A along the OL, C is 1B.
These guys may not be headed to the Pro Bowl, but this is the first season in years where the OL has improved during the season. Judge clearly knows how to coach by identifying and fixing problems.
I tend to agree, and I as I said, we have been wandering the desert in search of OL water for a decade... We are giddy about a few drops that are comparatively speaking like a pitcher of ambrosia.
Quote:
In comment 15065282 guitarguybs12 said:
Quote:
Something definitely clicked Week 8 it seems.
Wk1. 53.8 PBLK/64.7 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/4 HUR
Wk2. 52.5 PBLK/47.4 RBLK | 1 SK/1 HIT/3 HUR
Wk3. 51.5 PBLK/58.0 RBLK | 0 SK/2 HIT/2 HUR
Wk4. 53.0 PBLK/44.9 RBLK | 2 SK/0 HIT/4 HUR
Wk5. 31.7 PBLK/73.7 RBLK | 1 SK/0 HIT/8 HUR
Wk6. 56.2 PBLK/79.5 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/3 HUR
Wk7. 40.2 PBLK/73.3 RBLK | 1 SK/1 HIT/3 HUR
Wk8. 72.2 PBLK/59.3 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/3 HUR
Wk9. 66.4 PBLK/58.2 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/1 HUR
Wk10. 64.0 PBLK/40.0 RBLK | 1 SK/2 HIT/1 HUR
Wk12. 67.3 PBLK/59.5 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/0 HUR
I believe that was the first game Lemieux started. I think Lemieux has looked really good and maybe some of Thomas' improvement can be attributed to him? I think Hernandez has been absolutely atrocious this year, and imagine that hurt Thomas.
Hernandez has not been atrocious this year. Actually he was one of our best ol before getting covid. Thomas has played better because he improved his fundamentals.
Lemieux has gotten better each game but he was pretty bad the first game. Let's hope that continues.
It boggles my mind that so many people here shit on good players.
I really disagree. I don't think Hernandez has been good at all - I think he's been a massive issue.
Quote:
In comment 15065282 guitarguybs12 said:
Quote:
Something definitely clicked Week 8 it seems.
Wk1. 53.8 PBLK/64.7 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/4 HUR
Wk2. 52.5 PBLK/47.4 RBLK | 1 SK/1 HIT/3 HUR
Wk3. 51.5 PBLK/58.0 RBLK | 0 SK/2 HIT/2 HUR
Wk4. 53.0 PBLK/44.9 RBLK | 2 SK/0 HIT/4 HUR
Wk5. 31.7 PBLK/73.7 RBLK | 1 SK/0 HIT/8 HUR
Wk6. 56.2 PBLK/79.5 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/3 HUR
Wk7. 40.2 PBLK/73.3 RBLK | 1 SK/1 HIT/3 HUR
Wk8. 72.2 PBLK/59.3 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/3 HUR
Wk9. 66.4 PBLK/58.2 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/1 HUR
Wk10. 64.0 PBLK/40.0 RBLK | 1 SK/2 HIT/1 HUR
Wk12. 67.3 PBLK/59.5 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/0 HUR
I believe that was the first game Lemieux started. I think Lemieux has looked really good and maybe some of Thomas' improvement can be attributed to him? I think Hernandez has been absolutely atrocious this year, and imagine that hurt Thomas.
I agree and I also think it may have impacted Solder a little as well. It did seem that in a lot of the film breakdowns the last couple of years Hernandez wasn't just physically beaten, but making the wrong choices about who to pick up when there are multiple defenders, twists, etc.
However, this isn't isolated to Hernandez. I can't see how in the first week of starting Lemieux would have that much of a positive impact on Thomas. It has certainly helped and they are combining to make the left side pretty darn good against the run. I think OC is also a factor. Gates has steadily improved, so perhaps line calls and blocking calls have vastly improved as well.
Either way, we are starting to have the look of a very solid OL. That is why I feel it is important to get Peart in the starting lineup this year. That would leave only 1 question, in Hernandez vs. Zeitler at RG. I still think Hernandez has the potential and I like that he's younger. It would seem Zeitler really isn't in their plans and would be a likely cap casualty this off season. But, that is up to the coaches. I wouldn't mind seeing Hernandez at RG for more than a series, like last week, though.
Interesting analysis - that's a good point on Thomas.
Agreed on Peart. I'm pretty high on Gates/Lemieux, getting more excited on Thomas. I'm down on Hernandez but not writing him off.
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Talking in 2022??
People were ripping Thomas as if he is Ereck flowers 2.0 by Week 2 of the season.
But hey, if we want to talk positives - we have to wait until 2022. Sounds reasonable.
I never ripped Thomas or any of the other rookies. So you are addressing the wrong person
Just curious FMiC.
Is this you going on record as saying that you think that Thomas, Lemieux and Peart are all going to be plus starters for the Giants, and that we can determine this sooner than the end of the 2021 season?
This is a yes or no question.
If your answer is no, then that completely undermines the thrust of your post. In other words, if you answer is no, then you agree with my post are are just trying to stir up shit.
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In comment 15065947 LBH15 said:
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I agree completely with the sentiment that Gettleman has not done well at all in his decision making with respect to this critical area. Definitely not for a lack of effort, but the process still resulted in poor decisions and results which is really all that should matter in grading DG and determining if he should be trusted further in this capacity.
And yes, I agree he probably felt desperation sink in this past offseason which is why we got the OL Strategy that underpinned this past draft. This was the biggest flaw in the team and his poor decisions in this area were also killing the potential careers of Barkley and Jones, his two "franchise" picks. He had to draft at least 3 O-lineman, including two Tackles and he still needed the Gates experiment to bear fruit at Center to boot. It actually had to happen...think about that.
Quite frankly, thank the lord we are seeing some improvement. But to see the progress the Giants have had this season with their OL, including Gates, and calling it "fixed" is way too premature. This line has a ways to go in terms of development before we can suggest it is a strength in run & pass. And to convert that premature thinking into the main reason to keep Gettleman on further as GM is also eye-rolling to me which has been suggested as of late.
And lastly, save me the "no GM gets every decision right" speech as well. The NYG franchise shouldn't have to rely on pure desperation just to put together a functioning Offensive Line after several years on the job. At that point I actually can't conclude the GM did anything really well...it's that he finally got lucky.
Agreed LBH, the posts above are picking on picayune details and missing the bigger picture that I was trying to paint, but that you summarized well.
THe constant thought I have in my head regarding DG and the OL this year is... Even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut.
5 nuts in 2 years in pretty good. Gates was some real digging. Thomas, Hernandez, Lemieux, Peart, Gates is not bad. And Fleming as the backup where he belongs will be fine. And for the first time in years they're a well coached unit.
Yeah, not so much. I will agree with Gates as he has been a clear find for this regime. But all the free agent OL signees have been awful. Hernandez is losing his starting job to a Day 3 rookie. And Zeitler was a trade, while beneficial still weakened another area and he has shown himself to be much less than expected for his price tag.
This 2020 draft is kind of what needed to happen back in 2018. Gettleman just didn’t have things planned out well as to how to rebuild the Giants.
But that isn’t new news.
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In comment 15065966 .McL. said:
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In comment 15065947 LBH15 said:
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I agree completely with the sentiment that Gettleman has not done well at all in his decision making with respect to this critical area. Definitely not for a lack of effort, but the process still resulted in poor decisions and results which is really all that should matter in grading DG and determining if he should be trusted further in this capacity.
And yes, I agree he probably felt desperation sink in this past offseason which is why we got the OL Strategy that underpinned this past draft. This was the biggest flaw in the team and his poor decisions in this area were also killing the potential careers of Barkley and Jones, his two "franchise" picks. He had to draft at least 3 O-lineman, including two Tackles and he still needed the Gates experiment to bear fruit at Center to boot. It actually had to happen...think about that.
Quite frankly, thank the lord we are seeing some improvement. But to see the progress the Giants have had this season with their OL, including Gates, and calling it "fixed" is way too premature. This line has a ways to go in terms of development before we can suggest it is a strength in run & pass. And to convert that premature thinking into the main reason to keep Gettleman on further as GM is also eye-rolling to me which has been suggested as of late.
And lastly, save me the "no GM gets every decision right" speech as well. The NYG franchise shouldn't have to rely on pure desperation just to put together a functioning Offensive Line after several years on the job. At that point I actually can't conclude the GM did anything really well...it's that he finally got lucky.
Agreed LBH, the posts above are picking on picayune details and missing the bigger picture that I was trying to paint, but that you summarized well.
THe constant thought I have in my head regarding DG and the OL this year is... Even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut.
5 nuts in 2 years in pretty good. Gates was some real digging. Thomas, Hernandez, Lemieux, Peart, Gates is not bad. And Fleming as the backup where he belongs will be fine. And for the first time in years they're a well coached unit.
Yeah, not so much. I will agree with Gates as he has been a clear find for this regime. But all the free agent OL signees have been awful. Hernandez is losing his starting job to a Day 3 rookie. And Zeitler was a trade, while beneficial still weakened another area and he has shown himself to be much less than expected for his price tag.
This 2020 draft is kind of what needed to happen back in 2018. Gettleman just didn’t have things planned out well as to how to rebuild the Giants.
But that isn’t new news.
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In comment 15066148 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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Talking in 2022??
People were ripping Thomas as if he is Ereck flowers 2.0 by Week 2 of the season.
But hey, if we want to talk positives - we have to wait until 2022. Sounds reasonable.
I never ripped Thomas or any of the other rookies. So you are addressing the wrong person
Just curious FMiC.
Is this you going on record as saying that you think that Thomas, Lemieux and Peart are all going to be plus starters for the Giants, and that we can determine this sooner than the end of the 2021 season?
This is a yes or no question.
If your answer is no, then that completely undermines the thrust of your post. In other words, if you answer is no, then you agree with my post are are just trying to stir up shit.
The thrust of my post was to highlight the absurdness of you preaching waiting until 2022 to talk about the line. You certainly haven't. I don't know what you've said about the rookies, but you said that it was gross negligence to go into the season with Gates, which you are apparently chalking up now to blind luck.
I think the line looks it has the best in years. Does that mean we are assured to have a solid line? No. It means there are positives to take.
Positives you repeatedly and often shit on.
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In comment 15066165 .McL. said:
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In comment 15066148 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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Talking in 2022??
People were ripping Thomas as if he is Ereck flowers 2.0 by Week 2 of the season.
But hey, if we want to talk positives - we have to wait until 2022. Sounds reasonable.
I never ripped Thomas or any of the other rookies. So you are addressing the wrong person
Just curious FMiC.
Is this you going on record as saying that you think that Thomas, Lemieux and Peart are all going to be plus starters for the Giants, and that we can determine this sooner than the end of the 2021 season?
This is a yes or no question.
If your answer is no, then that completely undermines the thrust of your post. In other words, if you answer is no, then you agree with my post are are just trying to stir up shit.
The thrust of my post was to highlight the absurdness of you preaching waiting until 2022 to talk about the line. You certainly haven't. I don't know what you've said about the rookies, but you said that it was gross negligence to go into the season with Gates, which you are apparently chalking up now to blind luck.
I think the line looks it has the best in years. Does that mean we are assured to have a solid line? No. It means there are positives to take.
Positives you repeatedly and often shit on.
You're not keeping up FMiC. I haven't shit on the line lately. I have remarked on the improvement. There is no absurdness to my post. I have been pleasantly surprised with Gates. There is hope that we may finally be putting together something decent. That has been my tone for several weeks now.
That said, it has been years of gross negligence with regards to the line. And the fact that Gates actually may work out *IS* blind luck.
That said, I am not convinced yet. So I take a measured approach. Yes there is improvement. Let's see where we are after next season.
Your response proves my point. You are just looking to stir shit up as usual.
So finally in the 3rd off-season DG does what he should have done in his first and we are supposed to praise him... Sorry, no can do.
About as far as I can is to say that, I am glad he finally came around. He is still a lousy GM. And Yes, perhaps some of his new found success has something to do with Judge. The fact that Judge may have a positive influence seems more likely than DG suddenly got a clue.
They had to do that far ahead of time ( as in avoiding FA and draft decisions to select another) and tie their professional careers to the decision.
Blind luck? Or you were just plain ass wrong?
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You’re relentless on anything dg has done with the OL yet we have what appears to be a very good young unit. Spin it any frickin way you want thems the facts. It’s been 2.5 years since DG took over not 10. Assuming this OL holds up here and stays on this trajectory you and everyone else needs to tip your hat and move the hell on. You’re treating every positive move with a negative slant. Kidding me.
So finally in the 3rd off-season DG does what he should have done in his first and we are supposed to praise him... Sorry, no can do.
About as far as I can is to say that, I am glad he finally came around. He is still a lousy GM. And Yes, perhaps some of his new found success has something to do with Judge. The fact that Judge may have a positive influence seems more likely than DG suddenly got a clue.
By the way... I take offense to you saying that
My take oin the line has been generally positive about the improvement. Specifically about Gates. In the post that FMiC responded I was praising Gates.
You guys need to learn to read what is written and not just assume that the non-cheerleaders are always negative. We are not. When we see something good we say it. The only thing is , we may take a measured approach to what it means long term.
They had to do that far ahead of time ( as in avoiding FA and draft decisions to select another) and tie their professional careers to the decision.
Blind luck? Or you were just plain ass wrong?
Bill, he was a UDFA. Any UDFA becoming a starter is blind luck. Have you read what I wrote above. I wasn't necessarily referring to just this year.
And yes, I understand that they must have seen something. He clearly flashed when he had a chance to play at tackle last year.
That said, even agreeing that they must have seen something, it is still a pretty big risk to rely on a guy who has been a backup tackle to suddenly blossom into a good starting C. C requires more intelligence than any other position on the line. Gates must have displayed superior intelligence. But still, these are very different positions, and they often don't translate. Without ever having seen him play the position under fire, it was a pretty big risk. There is some luck that the risk payed off.
I never said that keeping him hinges on OL development. I believe he is a day late and a dollar short in that department. So no. The sooner he is "retired" the better.
They had to do that far ahead of time ( as in avoiding FA and draft decisions to select another) and tie their professional careers to the decision.
Blind luck? Or you were just plain ass wrong?
You definitely have to give them credit on this one. But that is one hell of a risk...almost, what’s the word...oh, desperation.
Can’t stand Bart Scott, but maybe he is finally thinking clearly. Or at least reading the right posts on BBI.
Except they had a full FA season, a full season of waiver wire and PS squad pickings and a draft.
Many other choices. Many other days to make choices. So deliberate choice and saw it through and brought talent you and a few others did not see ( I include myself)
Feeling they had to over pay Solder?...desperation.
Thats how I see the difference between credit which stands on its own and desperation which separately stands on its own
Except they had a full FA season, a full season of waiver wire and PS squad pickings and a draft.
Many other choices. Many other days to make choices. So deliberate choice and saw it through and brought talent you and a few others did not see ( I include myself)
Feeling they had to over pay Solder?...desperation.
Thats how I see the difference between credit which stands on its own and desperation which separately stands on its own
Bill2, I partially agree with you. They saw something.
You have to admit, that a guy that never played the position under fire is a risk.
The definition of risk is that there is some luck no matter how calculated it is.
I think the credit for the decision that Gates could be an NFL center goes to one or more coaches. Certainly, developing the talent does
Why? Is the question you should look into
Why? Is the question you should look into
I don't see any pretzels
My original point was that Gates was a 2018 UDFA. Any UDFA making it is luck. Period end. I never extended that statement of luck to this year, you and others did as a way of giving DG more credit or at least trying to discredit my comment. But that wasn't what my comment was. However, as long as you are going to take there. Not only was it luck that a UDFA "made" it, relying on him as a convert T was a risk, no matter how calculated, and that also bears an element of luck.
My main comment that people are objecting to was that Gates making it from being a UDFA in the first place was luck.
Refute that without turning yourself into a pretzel.
I think both bill and McL are right on Gates. Projecting OL forward is a difficult task regardless and success lies in managing the risk / reward of it. There is a potential narrative forming that the Giants may have corrected whatever was causing them to miscalculate so badly on their choices with this unit. I think the risk / reward seemed off on Gates by the simple fact of how when struggled with these OL assessments they had a lot more film and hard data (especially directionally) on those players than they had on Gates. If their process with these evaluations has indeed been "fixed" it is easy to simply say people had their reasons for doubting the front office but they will keep proving us wrong. However, it is still premature to call anything fixed IMO, we can all agree things look more promising than they have in years. But is important to remember how easy it is to look promising vs. the absolute crap we've seen in all of recent memory.
On desperation, unless we have some insider knowledge, there is an easy case to be made for much desperation in all of DGs years here in some areas. And then too much conservatism in other areas. Regardless, desperation and innovation can look very similar sometimes and there is a long way to go to find out just how smart the Judge Giants are. IE showing we can build a quality team. We've had many years here beating other cellar dweller and we should really hold of any declarations of us having solved a problem until it is a sustained pattern vs. a short but hopeful stretch.
Somebody was trying to claim that DG had done a good job with the line from the start and listed out all his roster moves. In that post it was stated that DG deserves credit for finding Gates in the 6th round of the 2019 draft. I pointed out that Gates was a 2018 UDFA and any UDFA making it is blind luck. Like a blind squirrel finding a nut.
If there was any pretzel going on, it was the way people were twisting that context.
I think the credit for the decision that Gates could be an NFL center goes to one or more coaches. Certainly, developing the talent does
Agree with you on this...
Hope you are well
Some combination of scouts/coaches/GM for 20202 analyzed and fought for the following choices within a new selection and development process:
Thomas
Gates
Peart
Lemieux
Fleming ( maybe less so since he was an early pick at FA so that maybe had more GM influence than the rest of the process produced)
That combination included Columbo (my understanding is that he had a big thumb on the scale when it came to his favorite selections...so maybe credit needs to be extended here...I dont know for sure).
So far, the results are nowhere near ready for final judgement but are also nowhere near the results in some recent prior years.
"Luck is the residue of design" was a favorite saying of Branch Rickey. HE got a lot of credit for it. Actually, its coined by John Milton in observation of Oliver Cromwell. So about 1640-1650 or so?
In between we have Ralph Waldo Emerson: " Weak men believe in luck or in circumstance. Strong men believe in cause and effect.”
Some combination of scouts/coaches/GM for 20202 analyzed and fought for the following choices within a new selection and development process:
Thomas
Gates
Peart
Lemieux
Fleming ( maybe less so since he was an early pick at FA so that maybe had more GM influence than the rest of the process produced)
That combination included Columbo (my understanding is that he had a big thumb on the scale when it came to his favorite selections...so maybe credit needs to be extended here...I dont know for sure).
So far, the results are nowhere near ready for final judgement but are also nowhere near the results in some recent prior years.
"Luck is the residue of design" was a favorite saying of Branch Rickey. HE got a lot of credit for it. Actually, its coined by John Milton in observation of Oliver Cromwell. So about 1640-1650 or so?
In between we have Ralph Waldo Emerson: " Weak men believe in luck or in circumstance. Strong men believe in cause and effect.”
Call it what you will... A statistical anomaly...
Statistically speaking the odds of a UDFA making it to becoming a productive start are extremely low. Sure you scout and try reduce the unknown variables as much as possible, but with UDFAs there is a lot of randomness. Not to mention that the UDFAs have some choice in the matter as well. They are free to choose where they want to sign. So, having a UDFA choose us, and then developing into a solid starter doesn't speak to a high degree of design. More like throwing s**t against the wall and see what sticks. Quoting Milton and Cromwell to describe it gives that process WAYYYY too much credit. LOL.
Cause and effect...
What bits will stick is a completely different (fecal) matter.
Desperate GMs searching for stars
Sorry if I jumped to conclusions on the back half of the thread.
To be clear...I dont think DG has the same size slice of each decision like he did prior to this year.
And being right about players and developing a high percentage of them and weeding the others fast only continues the process of making people choices by consensus instead of by prior assigned authority.
Sure its not a complete democracy (known as a circle jerk at times) but there are more than enough clues that its closer to a vetted process than a sentence on the job description that the GM "Shall make all personnel decisions"
This is nowhere more apparent than in the construction of the FA deals...which are now much different and forward smart. Nowhere more obvious than years of entrenched scout job stability followed by recent distinctly aimed performance replacement ( without prior years flowery fig leaf's as if "retirement" or :will continue to consult" hid the truth). No more hidden than the number and intensity of coaches attending the off season Combine to work the hallways and backrooms for information.
Whats the biggest difference? To me, there is an old saying that what gets watched and measured gets done. And Judge seems to be watching every detail. A 10% increase in intensity and attention in a 50 person operation is a lot more productivity and a lot more effectiveness ( meaning more work product and better work product per person)
Sorry if I jumped to conclusions on the back half of the thread.
To be clear...I dont think DG has the same size slice of each decision like he did prior to this year.
And being right about players and developing a high percentage of them and weeding the others fast only continues the process of making people choices by consensus instead of by prior assigned authority.
Sure its not a complete democracy (known as a circle jerk at times) but there are more than enough clues that its closer to a vetted process than a sentence on the job description that the GM "Shall make all personnel decisions"
This is nowhere more apparent than in the construction of the FA deals...which are now much different and forward smart. Nowhere more obvious than years of entrenched scout job stability followed by recent distinctly aimed performance replacement ( without prior years flowery fig leaf's as if "retirement" or :will continue to consult" hid the truth). No more hidden than the number and intensity of coaches attending the off season Combine to work the hallways and backrooms for information.
Whats the biggest difference? To me, there is an old saying that what gets watched and measured gets done. And Judge seems to be watching every detail. A 10% increase in intensity and attention in a 50 person operation is a lot more productivity and a lot more effectiveness ( meaning more work product and better work product per person)
I'm with ya on this Bill.
And I did comment earlier that I believe that Judge is more likely having a positive influence, than it is that DG finally figured it out. The difference in the draft and the free agent signing is just too stark. Something radically different happened this year. It is a very good thing. If that kind of evaluation and decision making becomes the new hallmark of this team, we are in for some fun years in the near future. As NGD suggested, before I sign up for results like this off-season as the new normal, I want to see it repeated... Often.
You make it sound like the guy was struggling for 5 years, it was half a fucking season.
If you can't see why people wouldn't be pleased at the #4 pick looking like the worst tackle in the NFL through half the season, I don't know what to tell you. Not just a little bit of a struggle, he was atrocious.
Gates was a UDFA and a reserve backup at several positions. Hence the choice of Halapio and Pulley. That was the choice under DG
IN 2020...a very different choice was made, defended against all alternative options and successfully developed.
DG is no longer the center maypole holding up the tent. There are lots more tent poles
There is a distinct possibility that the trial already took place and the final sentence and replacement selection not yet played out. What we are supposed to see is over this season or next. What we can chose to see is that the transition is well underway. Already
Oliver Cromwell was allowed to die of natural causes but many many always knew he would also be drawn and quartered for prior crimes. And he was in fact a dead man walking since 1640...his chosen route of succession quickly replaced and he was exhumed, cut into pieces and displayed at Tyburn. The trial and the visible end of failure separated by years in Cromwell's case.
Thats why I chose to include Miltons comment about his luck and actual design when describing the mystery of still being alive
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as if the Giants deserve some kind of positive spin because we are fans. The reason there was a lot of attention paid to Thomas struggling was because it is a huge story when the #4 pick struggles like he was especially with talent at the position behind him in the draft. The #4 pick playing decently isn't really a story, it's certainly a lovely sight to see. Forgive the naysayers but for a period this year Jones and Thomas were both prime reasons for us losing which is not at all what you want from a #6 and #4 pick in back to back years.
You make it sound like the guy was struggling for 5 years, it was half a fucking season.
I think you missed te point. It has less to do with Thomas himself and more to do with the Giants org...
If you read NGD's longer post, its clear that his point is that the Giants organization has not earned to benefit of the doubt with regards to their ability to pick and develop OL.
Gates was a UDFA and a reserve backup at several positions. Hence the choice of Halapio and Pulley. That was the choice under DG
IN 2020...a very different choice was made, defended against all alternative options and successfully developed.
DG is no longer the center maypole holding up the tent. There are lots more tent poles
There is a distinct possibility that the trial already took place and the final sentence and replacement selection not yet played out. What we are supposed to see is over this season or next. What we can chose to see is that the transition is well underway. Already
Oliver Cromwell was allowed to die of natural causes but many many always knew he would also be drawn and quartered for prior crimes. And he was in fact a dead man walking since 1640...his chosen route of succession quickly replaced and he was exhumed, cut into pieces and displayed at Tyburn. The trial and the visible end of failure separated by years in Cromwell's case.
Thats why I chose to include Miltons comment about his luck and actual design when describing the mystery of still being alive
Ok...
That's good!
I have to admit, that although I know Cromwell's history, I didn't make the connection to the "dead man walking" thing. I was still focused on the past improprieties.
That said, I tend to agree that DG is GM pretty much in name only. I think he has been stripped of a large chunk of his power. He more or less said this at one point in the spring. So yeah, I see the parallel now with Cromwell.
Unfortunately, it was lost on me in the discussion of whether or not UDFAs becoming starters is more than just luck.
It could be as simple as his successor is not yet available.
It could be that he is in a new job...GM as administrator of choices the group of key influencers makes.
Or as in NE and other franchises...the GM as the person in charge of executing the general road map Belichek or owner provides.
You can be a GM and be the coordinator and not in charge of anything or be a GM that dictates when everyone will breathe
Dont know.
But things that happen in 2020 positively or negatively dont hang on DG shoulders with the weight they did in prior years.
imo
It could be as simple as his successor is not yet available.
It could be that he is in a new job...GM as administrator of choices the group of key influencers makes.
Or as in NE and other franchises...the GM as the person in charge of executing the general road map Belichek or owner provides.
You can be a GM and be the coordinator and not in charge of anything or be a GM that dictates when everyone will breathe
Dont know.
But things that happen in 2020 positively or negatively dont hang on DG shoulders with the weight they did in prior years.
imo
Cromwell only lived for a few months after his resignation. He was already in failing health due to malaria if I remember correctly.
It would seem that if DG is following the Cromwell path that his resignation should be coming shortly...
But yeah, you could tell from his pressers that he wasn't the same over confident blustery blow hard that he'd been in the past. His demeanor made it obvious that things had changed.
Marshall Ney: Why do you spend so much time designing medals?
Napoleon: Do you really think men fight for France?
I absolutely believe that coaching is the reason for this line beginning to play well. The players that make NFL rosters are pretty doggone close in ability, for the most part. Of course there are the standouts - the perennial All Pros - but by far, most OLinemen are only shades different in ability.
As far as Gates being a UDFA - players from colleges with bad programs often go unnoticed. Players from successful programs become "darlings" and then fail when they go to the NFL because their college program makes them look better than they are. Happens all the time at virtually every position. While it is rare, even UFDA QBs get over looked (i.e., Romo, Warner) even Brady was a 6th round pick.
So yes it is an anomaly for Gates to make it as a starting center(fingers crossed). But obviously DG and the staff must have seen something in his play to invite him. So is it blind luck?(doubtful) Or is it a combination of identifying physical and mental traits that could lead to an NFL lineman.
One thing we do not know, is how much the "need" to continue playing Eli lead to poor decisions personnel wise and cost them a year of reconstruction. Others have pointed in this direction and I did not necessarily agree, but in hindsight think it is an absolute possibility.
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In comment 15065286 BrettNYG10 said:
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In comment 15065282 guitarguybs12 said:
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Something definitely clicked Week 8 it seems.
Wk1. 53.8 PBLK/64.7 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/4 HUR
Wk2. 52.5 PBLK/47.4 RBLK | 1 SK/1 HIT/3 HUR
Wk3. 51.5 PBLK/58.0 RBLK | 0 SK/2 HIT/2 HUR
Wk4. 53.0 PBLK/44.9 RBLK | 2 SK/0 HIT/4 HUR
Wk5. 31.7 PBLK/73.7 RBLK | 1 SK/0 HIT/8 HUR
Wk6. 56.2 PBLK/79.5 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/3 HUR
Wk7. 40.2 PBLK/73.3 RBLK | 1 SK/1 HIT/3 HUR
Wk8. 72.2 PBLK/59.3 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/3 HUR
Wk9. 66.4 PBLK/58.2 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/1 HUR
Wk10. 64.0 PBLK/40.0 RBLK | 1 SK/2 HIT/1 HUR
Wk12. 67.3 PBLK/59.5 RBLK | 0 SK/0 HIT/0 HUR
I believe that was the first game Lemieux started. I think Lemieux has looked really good and maybe some of Thomas' improvement can be attributed to him? I think Hernandez has been absolutely atrocious this year, and imagine that hurt Thomas.
Hernandez has not been atrocious this year. Actually he was one of our best ol before getting covid. Thomas has played better because he improved his fundamentals.
Lemieux has gotten better each game but he was pretty bad the first game. Let's hope that continues.
It boggles my mind that so many people here shit on good players.
I really disagree. I don't think Hernandez has been good at all - I think he's been a massive issue.
He has been an above average guard. People here are pissed because they feel he should be an all pro because he was taken high in the second round.
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In comment 15065966 .McL. said:
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In comment 15065947 LBH15 said:
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I agree completely with the sentiment that Gettleman has not done well at all in his decision making with respect to this critical area. Definitely not for a lack of effort, but the process still resulted in poor decisions and results which is really all that should matter in grading DG and determining if he should be trusted further in this capacity.
And yes, I agree he probably felt desperation sink in this past offseason which is why we got the OL Strategy that underpinned this past draft. This was the biggest flaw in the team and his poor decisions in this area were also killing the potential careers of Barkley and Jones, his two "franchise" picks. He had to draft at least 3 O-lineman, including two Tackles and he still needed the Gates experiment to bear fruit at Center to boot. It actually had to happen...think about that.
Quite frankly, thank the lord we are seeing some improvement. But to see the progress the Giants have had this season with their OL, including Gates, and calling it "fixed" is way too premature. This line has a ways to go in terms of development before we can suggest it is a strength in run & pass. And to convert that premature thinking into the main reason to keep Gettleman on further as GM is also eye-rolling to me which has been suggested as of late.
And lastly, save me the "no GM gets every decision right" speech as well. The NYG franchise shouldn't have to rely on pure desperation just to put together a functioning Offensive Line after several years on the job. At that point I actually can't conclude the GM did anything really well...it's that he finally got lucky.
Agreed LBH, the posts above are picking on picayune details and missing the bigger picture that I was trying to paint, but that you summarized well.
THe constant thought I have in my head regarding DG and the OL this year is... Even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut.
5 nuts in 2 years in pretty good. Gates was some real digging. Thomas, Hernandez, Lemieux, Peart, Gates is not bad. And Fleming as the backup where he belongs will be fine. And for the first time in years they're a well coached unit.
Yeah, not so much. I will agree with Gates as he has been a clear find for this regime. But all the free agent OL signees have been awful. Hernandez is losing his starting job to a Day 3 rookie. And Zeitler was a trade, while beneficial still weakened another area and he has shown himself to be much less than expected for his price tag.
This 2020 draft is kind of what needed to happen back in 2018. Gettleman just didn’t have things planned out well as to how to rebuild the Giants.
But that isn’t new news.
Weakened another area? We traded a guy that was about to be cut for him. Come on googs.
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Before I notice risk...I see a guy trying to be a pretzel.
Why? Is the question you should look into
I don't see any pretzels
My original point was that Gates was a 2018 UDFA. Any UDFA making it is luck. Period end. I never extended that statement of luck to this year, you and others did as a way of giving DG more credit or at least trying to discredit my comment. But that wasn't what my comment was. However, as long as you are going to take there. Not only was it luck that a UDFA "made" it, relying on him as a convert T was a risk, no matter how calculated, and that also bears an element of luck.
My main comment that people are objecting to was that Gates making it from being a UDFA in the first place was luck.
Refute that without turning yourself into a pretzel.
If DG didn't have a history of finding late draft picks and UDFA you might have a point. But he does have a track record of doing just that. Maybe DG is just good at finding hidden gems along the OL.....
Orchestrate a trade down from overall #2, accumulate extra picks and do it. This is how you efficiently rebuild broken teams.
I presume decent OL were available after #2 spot, so I will let you hypothetically determine who was worthy if it matters.
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Drafted 3 ol in 2018? Okay please tell us which players he should have drafted then.
Orchestrate a trade down from overall #2, accumulate extra picks and do it. This is how you efficiently rebuild broken teams.
I presume decent OL were available after #2 spot, so I will let you hypothetically determine who was worthy if it matters.
It wouldn’t have mattered b/c Shurmur and his staff did a poor job of coaching the OL. No one on his staff, and not Shurmur, has anything close to the level of detail that Judge has.
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Drafted 3 ol in 2018? Okay please tell us which players he should have drafted then.
Orchestrate a trade down from overall #2, accumulate extra picks and do it. This is how you efficiently rebuild broken teams.
I presume decent OL were available after #2 spot, so I will let you hypothetically determine who was worthy if it matters.
And if there are no trades to be had? My point is you don't go into a draft with the mindset that I have to get X amount of OL this year. And you don't make a bad trade just to trade.
You do realize that there were other parts of the needed help too.
As to the giants changing the process in how players are chosen. It seams clear that there is a new process. What's not clear is who began/ made the changes. It's assumed here that it Was Judge. But if you go back to DG's first year press conference he talked about changing how the scouts scout. Creating communication between the scouts and coaches. Creating a new computer system to handle the information. Mara mentioned this as one of the reasons for keeping him this season. Ownership felt it was better to let him finish the job.
I don't know if these new systems came from DG or JJ. But there is some evidence that it started with DG.
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In comment 15066321 fireitup77 said:
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Drafted 3 ol in 2018? Okay please tell us which players he should have drafted then.
Orchestrate a trade down from overall #2, accumulate extra picks and do it. This is how you efficiently rebuild broken teams.
I presume decent OL were available after #2 spot, so I will let you hypothetically determine who was worthy if it matters.
And if there are no trades to be had? My point is you don't go into a draft with the mindset that I have to get X amount of OL this year. And you don't make a bad trade just to trade.
You do realize that there were other parts of the needed help too.
Go research whether DG had a trade available to him and whether it was reasonable.
And yes, lots of parts were needed...so that is why you accumulate picks. Assuming OL could be some portion of them.
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In comment 15066324 LBH15 said:
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In comment 15066321 fireitup77 said:
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Drafted 3 ol in 2018? Okay please tell us which players he should have drafted then.
Orchestrate a trade down from overall #2, accumulate extra picks and do it. This is how you efficiently rebuild broken teams.
I presume decent OL were available after #2 spot, so I will let you hypothetically determine who was worthy if it matters.
And if there are no trades to be had? My point is you don't go into a draft with the mindset that I have to get X amount of OL this year. And you don't make a bad trade just to trade.
You do realize that there were other parts of the needed help too.
Go research whether DG had a trade available to him and whether it was reasonable.
And yes, lots of parts were needed...so that is why you accumulate picks. Assuming OL could be some portion of them.
And like I said you don't trade just to trade. There were no offers of value.
The real test is whether Thomas is better than the three other OL that were being ranked in that area (or as good if one of the others is excellent). That’s the test of real success.
One Gettleman bark that he didn’t make that bothers me to this day is the trade up for that loser DeAndre Baker. He could have stayed put and picked Jawaan Taylor, who has been starting for the Jags for two years now. Taylor was available at a position if critical need and DG opted to bypass him. Ooops.
The real test is whether Thomas is better than the three other OL that were being ranked in that area (or as good if one of the others is excellent). That’s the test of real success.
To some degree, yes. Are all the top OTs playing Left Tackle...not sure but didn't think so.
For example, the selection of McKinney, coming from a program which knows talent and where Judge will have excellent connections, makes me optimistic about that pick. To me, that is like Saban reaching into the giants’ war room.
Maybe because it's a 247sports article.
Or because people were wondering what an "improvement article" was? Is it like an oxford comma? A past participle?
What I think is funny is that you somehow gain no intelligence over time.
the OL seems to be heading in the right direction. Everyone has wanted to see resources pumped into the OL and that's what they did.
in the remaking of the defense the priorities have been on a big physical front and coverage in the secondary - drafting Lawrence and Baker high was indicative of those priorities. the pass rush by committee approach wasn't popular but they didn't force a move that may not have been there.
Those are high level philosophical decisions made pretty early on in the rebuild - and while neither unit (OL + D) is at the final destination yet imo we are seeing that there was a soundness to the strategy. When the OL protects the QB and opens running lanes, and the defense stops the run and prevent big plays in the secondary, the games are highly competitive. They haven't done all of those things in every game and in particular had trouble protecting the QB early in the year but the story of this season has been progress in each of those areas.
The entire NYG FO deserves credit that the areas where there has been progress are the areas where they have made their biggest investments and the coaching staff deserves credit for generating return on those investments. Andrew Thomas is one piece of that but it really goes beyond him.
In your hypothetical, if there is a big enough spread then I would agree. But general rule of thumb is LT is more valuable, and Thomas can play both.
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In comment 15066342 fireitup77 said:
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In comment 15066324 LBH15 said:
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In comment 15066321 fireitup77 said:
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Drafted 3 ol in 2018? Okay please tell us which players he should have drafted then.
Orchestrate a trade down from overall #2, accumulate extra picks and do it. This is how you efficiently rebuild broken teams.
I presume decent OL were available after #2 spot, so I will let you hypothetically determine who was worthy if it matters.
And if there are no trades to be had? My point is you don't go into a draft with the mindset that I have to get X amount of OL this year. And you don't make a bad trade just to trade.
You do realize that there were other parts of the needed help too.
Go research whether DG had a trade available to him and whether it was reasonable.
And yes, lots of parts were needed...so that is why you accumulate picks. Assuming OL could be some portion of them.
And like I said you don't trade just to trade. There were no offers of value.
DG himself admitted that there was at least one fair trade offer. He had likely already built his shrine to Saquon at that point, so the trade offer was probably moot, but it did exist according to DG himself.
the OL seems to be heading in the right direction. Everyone has wanted to see resources pumped into the OL and that's what they did.
in the remaking of the defense the priorities have been on a big physical front and coverage in the secondary - drafting Lawrence and Baker high was indicative of those priorities. the pass rush by committee approach wasn't popular but they didn't force a move that may not have been there.
Those are high level philosophical decisions made pretty early on in the rebuild - and while neither unit (OL + D) is at the final destination yet imo we are seeing that there was a soundness to the strategy. When the OL protects the QB and opens running lanes, and the defense stops the run and prevent big plays in the secondary, the games are highly competitive. They haven't done all of those things in every game and in particular had trouble protecting the QB early in the year but the story of this season has been progress in each of those areas.
The entire NYG FO deserves credit that the areas where there has been progress are the areas where they have made their biggest investments and the coaching staff deserves credit for generating return on those investments. Andrew Thomas is one piece of that but it really goes beyond him.
What refusal to acknowledge...
Do you have eyes, can you read? Have you actually read the things that Terp, bw, GD, TTH, christian, JonC, LBH, NGD, myself and others have been writing lately. EVERYBODY has acknowledged the improvement and expressed some level of hope. It remains that as currently constituted the Giants are beating the dregs of the league, but still losing to the good teams. TO this point, they have not beaten a team with more than 4 wins this year. That means the Giants are still a below average team. We will start doing back flips when they next appear in the Super Bowl. Until then we are cautiously optimistic. But measured optimism isn't good enough for you over the barrel cheerleaders. Give it a rest for a change, wait and see how things play out before you pronounce the Giants "fixed" and can take their place among the NFL elite.
To keep LW he will probably increase his cap hit ~20% and Tomlinson will get a big raise to keep him. If we pay Saquon i'm just not sure the Patriots model of building throw the middle will work. You can't ignore that the Patriots model included one of the best QBs of all time playing at a discount. You can't necessarily build the same way as them. The D gave up some 4th Q leads and we don't really have good data to say this strategy we are pursuing works from a resource allocation standpoint.
We've definitely heard in some of the modernization and technology conversations in the past that the Giants look at it as a budget issue, in terms of spending in these uncapped ways, they don't seem willing to spend like other teams. To me the big concern is this, the Mara's aren't like Robert Kraft. There is plenty of evidence that there isn't enough knowledge of innovation in the building with Judge as the stark exception. The salary that DG makes, it's kind of a waste to spend that as someone that isn't a good innovation partner for Judge as what, a pension? A lifetime achievement award?
No doubt if the Giants were ahead of the curve and willing to overspend, sure, keep DG around. I don't think smart people with different perspectives are ever a bad thing. However, if you want to maximize the potential of Judge it would seem that they'd be way better off spending that money on a GM that wasn't an administrator.
And that's really even the unification of my last post and this one. I'm not sure how much room there is for success in limited resources when you weigh sentimental things as much as the Giants have shown to recently.
Said so loud and clear, went out an selected for that, fired for that cause, spent for it, increased the size of the staff for it and seem to have evidence of progress.
Given that human organizations improve when the degree of change per year is about 15-30% ( this truism is present in the writings of Frederick Taylor, Maslow, Alfred Sloan...so its not new news and its experientially true in a modern career) and slide into chaos when the number of required adjustments slides higher than that, selecting one lever to change and changing it - is long proven sound.
If they made another major change to an organizational lever its in the area of rigor per player and game preparation and per selection. This combined with selection process changes is one hell of a lot of overhaul per organizational year. Especially when considering the number of new people who have to be bought in and oriented.
Three organizational levers that were pulled:
- Dedication to Development
- Rigor prior to decisions
- Selection Process
Have there been other efforts of all different kinds? Of course. But by strategy or because humans absorb only so much at a deep level and the rest is fleeting or picked up by only a few...three major initiatives seems the boundary of large scale change efforts in all kinds of organizations.
If we focus on chosen improvement levers and not just personalities, we wind up with a picture of where progress is being made. If we focus on scores, we focus on lag indicators of progress. As each year goes by, our balance between lead and lag indicators should shift. (So should the organizations).
Progress should get faster when the first improvement levers are foundational and established habits. The weaknesses and potential impact of each top org person gets rounded down as process and practice weave their input into less impact per warlord and more impact per culture
As always, its up to each fan to see what they see and play out fandom by their core emotive needs.
You wanted change of personalities based on a sense you have?
You wanted change via the way modern change management is done?
Or you wanted to continue to show you knew better?
Clearly see him side step more smoothly and handle the inside pass rush move better than he did in early weeks. He and the Guard(s) are recognizing and picking up stunts quicker. Still would like to see him anchor a bit sooner versus giving up space, and stop getting caught riding his man around the backside of the QB (although nice recovery effort here). Strength-training will be a priority this offseason.
Be nice if the Tackles can keep McCoy clean today as we might need to actually score touchdowns versus FGs to stay in this game.
What refusal to acknowledge...
Do you have eyes, can you read? Have you actually read the things that Terp, bw, GD, TTH, christian, JonC, LBH, NGD, myself and others have been writing lately. EVERYBODY has acknowledged the improvement and expressed some level of hope. It remains that as currently constituted the Giants are beating the dregs of the league, but still losing to the good teams. TO this point, they have not beaten a team with more than 4 wins this year. That means the Giants are still a below average team. We will start doing back flips when they next appear in the Super Bowl. Until then we are cautiously optimistic. But measured optimism isn't good enough for you over the barrel cheerleaders. Give it a rest for a change, wait and see how things play out before you pronounce the Giants "fixed" and can take their place among the NFL elite.
1. Never said the NYG are "fixed". In fact I clearly stated the opposite that there is more work to be done even in the areas for optimism.
2. I think we have different definitions of measured/cautious optimism. When I see things trending in the right direction, absent an egregious failing I generally don't also think replacing key leadership.
I can literally hear some DG detractors typing their replies to the words "egregious failing" now before even submitting this reply, and I'd hopefully like to spare everyone from the same ground being recycled for the millionth time and just say few of them project "cautious or measured optimism" (imo).
3rd bonus thought - I'm not saying there haven't been moves worthy of criticism. Most everything from 2018 didn't work out. Just that some can't bring themselves to ever say "Gettleman did a good job with _______" without defensive caveats. Especially re anything pre-Judge because that then impacts the narrative. And the 2019 offseason looks pretty good in hindsight.
For about the 10th time.
If we focus on chosen improvement levers and not just personalities, we wind up with a picture of where progress is being made. If we focus on scores, we focus on lag indicators of progress. As each year goes by, our balance between lead and lag indicators should shift. (So should the organizations).
The bolded part not only resonates with whatever macro (non-personality driven) progress being made at the organizational level, but also on the macro field level.
I recall a stat from last week's game that it was the team's 6th game in a row with 100 yards rushing and that was the first time that happened since 2010. If we could all step back from arguing individual personalities - whether it's Thomas, Barkley, Hernandez, etc. - I think we'd see while there may have been some non-ideal selections along the way the sum of the parts is starting to generate aggregate production that could setup the foundation of success for this next 2-4 year window. The TO differential is improving, pass rush improving, coverage units improving, clock management, etc.
There is good going on if we can accept that it's not perfect.
For about the 10th time.
Now do LW!
(jk pls dont)
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Bradberry and Martinez.
For about the 10th time.
Now do LW!
(jk pls dont)
I would if it was a good move. Is he signed yet to a market contract?
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In comment 15066977 LBH15 said:
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Bradberry and Martinez.
For about the 10th time.
Now do LW!
(jk pls dont)
I would if it was a good move. Is he signed yet to a market contract?
He's under contract at the 5th highest cap # for a DT this year, so yes. And they have the option to keep him at the same number again next year.
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You’re relentless on anything dg has done with the OL yet we have what appears to be a very good young unit. Spin it any frickin way you want thems the facts. It’s been 2.5 years since DG took over not 10. Assuming this OL holds up here and stays on this trajectory you and everyone else needs to tip your hat and move the hell on. You’re treating every positive move with a negative slant. Kidding me.
So finally in the 3rd off-season DG does what he should have done in his first and we are supposed to praise him... Sorry, no can do.
About as far as I can is to say that, I am glad he finally came around. He is still a lousy GM. And Yes, perhaps some of his new found success has something to do with Judge. The fact that Judge may have a positive influence seems more likely than DG suddenly got a clue.
He’s also rebuilt the D. Added a young qb and drafted a franchise talent at RB who has suffered bad luck injuries the last two years.
DG will never receive any credit from you and others because you are so dug in. It’s comical to watch some of you spin.
Reminder, it’s year 3. And the roster wasn’t exactly ripe for a rebuild when the ashes and soot started to settle in January 2018.
After 2 years the team is taking shape but in your world “gross negligence for years”
3rd year. Not the 5th. And the above average defense here would like to remind you that the nyg D from 2014-2017 was a complete shit show. Now we have a pro unit in place with room for upside and growth.
Exhausting.
The official moment this rebuild started was halfway through 2018 when the season was all but lost. That’s when DG flipped the entire team upside down. Here we are 2 years later from that moment.
You hate the guy and want him out. Sorry, you’re gonna lose this one. At least the team is on the way back. Could be worse, you could have been right.
That being said, especially within the scope of managing resources, it never hurts to have more people testing new things without putting them into production or interfering with the process of running the business. We had this discussion when talking about bringing on a CTO in the past. Plenty of room for R&D without interfering with the day to day.
And that's where spending money on an "administrator" comes in. I think it becomes more of a question of how productive that person for a very high salary? How much are they adding? Let's say they are just rolling out more high tech new processes with Judge, how valuable is DG to that process vs. someone that might be able to be more additive to the process of implementing the new things Judge wants to? I'd argue that someone who types on fake keyboards to make fun of advanced math among other things we've seen from him wouldn't be super additive to that process. I'd also argue that someone that seems as allergic to trading down as DG isn't super additive to a drafting process.
I'm guessing you would also feel Belicheck is not super additive because he's mocked aspects of analytics in the past too.
That being said, especially within the scope of managing resources, it never hurts to have more people testing new things without putting them into production or interfering with the process of running the business. We had this discussion when talking about bringing on a CTO in the past. Plenty of room for R&D without interfering with the day to day.
And that's where spending money on an "administrator" comes in. I think it becomes more of a question of how productive that person for a very high salary? How much are they adding? Let's say they are just rolling out more high tech new processes with Judge, how valuable is DG to that process vs. someone that might be able to be more additive to the process of implementing the new things Judge wants to? I'd argue that someone who types on fake keyboards to make fun of advanced math among other things we've seen from him wouldn't be super additive to that process. I'd also argue that someone that seems as allergic to trading down as DG isn't super additive to a drafting process.
I do not believe Gettleman made an explanation or was even asked to explain what he meant with his air keyboard reaction. So, we are only guessing what he meant. I feel this benign gesture (in my view) spoiled a lot of the math people against him even if they are only guessing that he was mocking mathematics. That is unfortunate, because even if he was mocking mathematics, it is still possible for him to repent of that thinking, it is also unfortunate because I feel people's guesses as to what he was mocking have become concrete to consistently be certain that Gettleman thinks math and numbers are foolish.
In my view he was more than likely mocking those who insinuate that football problems can be easily solved by inputting (air keyboard) a formula and the problem to instantly retrieve a solution to a football problem that has stumped many which is now retrievable through analytics.
Handling small and large issues with the NFL departments, agents, lawyers and 31
other front offices is all hidden from us.
Yet part of the job you don't want to burden the HC.
A well functioning whole FO is what you want and thats hard to evaluate ànd personalities inside a functioning whole are very hard to isolate well enough to be certain of individual contribution.
I think thats easier under prior times example: DG before this set of scouts and coaches and agreements on Mara's role and harder now. Imo
I don’t even want to get ahead of things yet there still important football to be played. The OL and defense still have much more to prove but they are on their way the last couple of months.
How anybody can spin his first 2 as anything but atrocious, I have no clue. Heck, DG publicly admitted that his first 2 years were not good. So, when DG himself says it was bad, how can the apologist turn around and say it was good.
I think everybody agrees that there was something different this year.
Let's see, what changed this year... Oh yeah, Judge came in, and DG admitted that some of his responsibility was stripped.
So, we are supposed to suddenly say he has been a good GM, when he admitted that he hadn't been good his first 2 years, was stripped of power. Then after a new coaching staff, and a new philosophy top to bottom we see improvement and it is supposedly attributable to DG. That's some really sound logic there.
I'm with Bill2. The trial on DG already happened. He was stripped and we don't know exactly to whom we should apportion credit for the improvement, but it's doubtful that it's DG.
How anybody can spin his first 2 as anything but atrocious, I have no clue. Heck, DG publicly admitted that his first 2 years were not good. So, when DG himself says it was bad, how can the apologist turn around and say it was good.
I think everybody agrees that there was something different this year.
Let's see, what changed this year... Oh yeah, Judge came in, and DG admitted that some of his responsibility was stripped.
So, we are supposed to suddenly say he has been a good GM, when he admitted that he hadn't been good his first 2 years, was stripped of power. Then after a new coaching staff, and a new philosophy top to bottom we see improvement and it is supposedly attributable to DG. That's some really sound logic there.
I'm with Bill2. The trial on DG already happened. He was stripped and we don't know exactly to whom we should apportion credit for the improvement, but it's doubtful that it's DG.
Whatever works. The team is on the right track. I’ve seen this song and dance before now we’re saying dg isn’t even making decisions anymore.
I don’t give two shits anymore I’m just loving this. DG has rebuilt the D and OL and we’re a few adds away from fielding something with serious staying power. Judge is huge. So what. DG helped.