Keep Tomlinson. Williams is part of what can be an insane DL for years. Been 10 years since this team had young guys who deserved second contracts. Can they for once re-sign them
Nothing has changed - he has been the same exact player. This year the sacks are showing up. He has always been disruptive
Exactly. Williams may be going way past his average for sacks per year, but he's never been as 'bad' at getting the QB as most would have you think before now.
Is he playing better in this system? Absolutely.
However, it's not night/day. He's always been high value, now it's just truly top 5 high value. He's playing like peak JPP right now.
...doesn't mean it was a good decision. I realize that some people have a problem with this concept.
Gary come on. People blast the GM all over the planet when things go wrong, when the players you acquire help you win football games it was the right move.
LW is getting there but he's certainly benefiting from terrific pass coverage and schemes.
So I'm still reluctant paying a guy LW top market dollar -in his contract year - when I see what Graham is producing with this entire defense at every level.
RE: Just because something has a positive outcome...
...doesn't mean it was a good decision. I realize that some people have a problem with this concept.
Terrible take. Absolutely horrendous.
His numbers were off and he was expecting a contract. The effort and availability were there, so our GM traded a 3rd for him and because of that we were afforded the right to franchise him this year to see if he figured it out unstead of waiting till FA to throw a huge contract at a guy who hasnt produced.
Having elite edge rushers isn't even close to necessary anymore. These QBs are too mobile. It's realy simple, get decent rush across the line and mush rush the QB, especially these shorter mobile guys If you get really good interior pressure its a big plus and stay disciplined on the line. This was a fucking marvel to watch today. Cover the back end, And these guys are so fucking disciplined, its a wonder to see. We'll see the same exact game plan next week.
LW is getting there but he's certainly benefiting from terrific pass coverage and schemes.
So I'm still reluctant paying a guy LW top market dollar -in his contract year - when I see what Graham is producing with this entire defense at every level.
That’s the same with every player and position. On his own, anyone sucks. Ut give him ten other guys and....
RE: RE: Just because something has a positive outcome...
Having elite edge rushers isn't even close to necessary anymore. These QBs are too mobile. It's realy simple, get decent rush across the line and mush rush the QB, especially these shorter mobile guys If you get really good interior pressure its a big plus and stay disciplined on the line. This was a fucking marvel to watch today. Cover the back end, And these guys are so fucking disciplined, its a wonder to see. We'll see the same exact game plan next week.
We don't agree on a lot, but I am with you on this. PRBC works if you have the back-end talent to cover. And right now we do...This is precisely how Belichick has coached New England the last decade.
Find under-valued assets like Van Noy and Ninkovitch, have tough LBs, and have good cover guys.
was way over the top. He’s young. He was never accused of being lazy. He brings it 100%..
The problem is that we could have simply signed him as a FA. 2019 Jets FA Leonard Williams wildest dreams contract would have been far far less than what we will need to pay him now. Why on earth people would rather pay Williams anything he wants now versus paying him a mediocre contract and using the savings for another player is beyond me.
RE: RE: Most knew the physical talent was there...
LW is getting there but he's certainly benefiting from terrific pass coverage and schemes.
So I'm still reluctant paying a guy LW top market dollar -in his contract year - when I see what Graham is producing with this entire defense at every level.
Dude, Im convinced youre either just fucking nuts or truly a Skins fan.
Literally every time Wilson dropped back LW was caving in his side of the line and whenever they ran the ball, he was doing the same thing as well as sealing off his edge.
LW is Richard Seymour+ at this point. 26 and destroying schemes.
But maybe THIS coach, and the TEAM he is creating can change an individual's mental state and bring out the best.
Winning solves a lot of problems. I hope he has a long and productive future as a Giant! He certainly looks like he is having fun. So are WE!
No offense, but dumb comment. Effort was always there and he plays 2 ways. Fucking starting to kick some ass.
No offense taken, but my comment was referring more as to when he was a Jet, where is effort was sometimes questioned.
Never heard that about him as a Jet. He was also on a swamped DLine with Wilkerson, Richardson all of which played the same position for the most part.
Dude, Im convinced youre either just fucking nuts or truly a Skins fan.
Literally every time Wilson dropped back LW was caving in his side of the line and whenever they ran the ball, he was doing the same thing as well as sealing off his edge.
LW is Richard Seymour+ at this point. 26 and destroying schemes.
Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
1) I still think the trade, given when it happened and what we gave up was stupid. I would rather have made a play for him in the off season, which would have cost less than the tag we gave him or the deal he is likely to get.
2) I still do not believe he is worth $18-20M, like he is looking for. But, this was the type of game the Jets were looking for. And the type of game, against this competition and this time of year with what's at stake, that would make a contract with him more palatable.
3) There is no denying, this could be his signature game as a player. He has arrived and I admit, it will be hard to ignore him or let him walk after a game like this with the rest of the season he's had.
This game really changed my entire outlook of the team this year. It came close to doing the same for Williams. I always said I liked him and thought he was a good player. This was the type of next level game that establishes him, with the rest of the his season to date as the base.
RE: Just because something has a positive outcome...
...doesn't mean it was a good decision. I realize that some people have a problem with this concept.
okay so then if he made what group think says was a good decision but it had a negative outcome... would you still say it was a good decision? Something tells me that this is a heads I win, tails you lose thing Gary.
What I really think is going on here is someone is not admitting he was wrong about something.
RE: RE: There's a lot of people here that are stuck in football
Having elite edge rushers isn't even close to necessary anymore. These QBs are too mobile. It's realy simple, get decent rush across the line and mush rush the QB, especially these shorter mobile guys If you get really good interior pressure its a big plus and stay disciplined on the line. This was a fucking marvel to watch today. Cover the back end, And these guys are so fucking disciplined, its a wonder to see. We'll see the same exact game plan next week.
We don't agree on a lot, but I am with you on this. PRBC works if you have the back-end talent to cover. And right now we do...This is precisely how Belichick has coached New England the last decade.
Find under-valued assets like Van Noy and Ninkovitch, have tough LBs, and have good cover guys.
Did you lose faith we were going to win? I certainly did, or at least was 50/50. Man it's scary as shit to watch, but we stayed super disciplined and they just didn't make the plays with their WRs and QB. Wild to think. The QB isn't as good next week, but the WRs are much better. I know I'll get roasted for it, but these guys coming up don't drop the ball like the Seahawks do. Our defensive talent is legit though. God damn what a game. Was really impressed how much we ran the ball today and beat them up front offensively. Should be better this week even. Expect a little higher scoring game on both ends against Cards. Big dick Judge laying pipe on the NFL. This is just fucking awesome to watch. I'm really thinking we may have the best coach in NFL. Looooooove it.
RE: RE: Just because something has a positive outcome...
...doesn't mean it was a good decision. I realize that some people have a problem with this concept.
okay so then if he made what group think says was a good decision but it had a negative outcome... would you still say it was a good decision? Something tells me that this is a heads I win, tails you lose thing Gary.
What I really think is going on here is someone is not admitting he was wrong about something.
Yes, it is possible for a good decision to turn out bad and vice versa. It's no different in games with play calling. Sometimes you call the right play and it doesn't work. Sometimes you make the wrong call and you execute.
It's possible that the trade was not smart, given where our team was last year, where the Jets were, the season Williams was having for them, and the prospects of him leaving via FA. His price tag, if left on the Jets, would have been much lower, as it would have been perceived as more of a flyer.
I love the way he is playing this year. We have seen this kind of play from MAYBE once before in 2016 (I think). This game probably ensured he will get a big payday. Is he worth $18M+? I'm still not convinced. BUT...but, I wouldn't feel terrible giving it to him if that's what they think it takes. This game elevated his status, in my opinion given the time of year, the opponent, and what is at stake. I really want to keep both him and Tomlinson. Perhaps with the OL play, it is more possible, as they likely don't need a high priced OL via FA.
At this point you've got to give Coach Chaos credit.
All of the Defensive Linemen seem to be playing up to their ability, and good team ball. There isn't much dropoff when Hill & Austin Johnson play. I love the urgency and every down effort up front. There are a lot of resources invested there, and they are getting a good return.
RE: RE: RE: There's a lot of people here that are stuck in football
Having elite edge rushers isn't even close to necessary anymore. These QBs are too mobile. It's realy simple, get decent rush across the line and mush rush the QB, especially these shorter mobile guys If you get really good interior pressure its a big plus and stay disciplined on the line. This was a fucking marvel to watch today. Cover the back end, And these guys are so fucking disciplined, its a wonder to see. We'll see the same exact game plan next week.
We don't agree on a lot, but I am with you on this. PRBC works if you have the back-end talent to cover. And right now we do...This is precisely how Belichick has coached New England the last decade.
Find under-valued assets like Van Noy and Ninkovitch, have tough LBs, and have good cover guys.
Did you lose faith we were going to win? I certainly did, or at least was 50/50. Man it's scary as shit to watch, but we stayed super disciplined and they just didn't make the plays with their WRs and QB. Wild to think. The QB isn't as good next week, but the WRs are much better. I know I'll get roasted for it, but these guys coming up don't drop the ball like the Seahawks do. Our defensive talent is legit though. God damn what a game. Was really impressed how much we ran the ball today and beat them up front offensively. Should be better this week even. Expect a little higher scoring game on both ends against Cards. Big dick Judge laying pipe on the NFL. This is just fucking awesome to watch. I'm really thinking we may have the best coach in NFL. Looooooove it.
The defense was playing so good that I still felt that they were going to hold up in the end. Definitely a mindset change but for me but they are just being coached so well and playing with discipline that I felt they could make the plays.
Dude, Im convinced youre either just fucking nuts or truly a Skins fan.
Literally every time Wilson dropped back LW was caving in his side of the line and whenever they ran the ball, he was doing the same thing as well as sealing off his edge.
LW is Richard Seymour+ at this point. 26 and destroying schemes.
Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
Such a dumb take. So is Aaron Donald not worth it because Jalen Ramsey is playing corner?
It’s a team game. No single player is going to dominate without the other pieces working.
RE: RE: RE: RE: There is a lot of chicken and egg here...
Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
Such a dumb take. So is Aaron Donald not worth it because Jalen Ramsey is playing corner?
It’s a team game. No single player is going to dominate without the other pieces working.
That's the comparison you want to make here? Aaron Donald? A guy currently putting together a resume as one of the greatest DTs of all time...?
I mean, I get your point to a degree but this is the wrong way to do it.
Look, I get it. LW is playing well, but I think a lot of this is a reflection of the back four and their stellar play...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: There is a lot of chicken and egg here...
Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
Such a dumb take. So is Aaron Donald not worth it because Jalen Ramsey is playing corner?
It’s a team game. No single player is going to dominate without the other pieces working.
That's the comparison you want to make here? Aaron Donald? A guy currently putting together a resume as one of the greatest DTs of all time...?
I mean, I get your point to a degree but this is the wrong way to do it.
Look, I get it. LW is playing well, but I think a lot of this is a reflection of the back four and their stellar play...
LW was a good player last year with less talent around him and a shit coaching staff. What you’re seeing now is what his potential is with a little help.
He’s been saddled with trash around him his entire career until this year.
Did you lose faith we were going to win? I certainly did, or at least was 50/50. Man it's scary as shit to watch, but we stayed super disciplined and they just didn't make the plays with their WRs and QB. Wild to think. The QB isn't as good next week, but the WRs are much better. I know I'll get roasted for it, but these guys coming up don't drop the ball like the Seahawks do. Our defensive talent is legit though. God damn what a game. Was really impressed how much we ran the ball today and beat them up front offensively. Should be better this week even. Expect a little higher scoring game on both ends against Cards. Big dick Judge laying pipe on the NFL. This is just fucking awesome to watch. I'm really thinking we may have the best coach in NFL. Looooooove it.
Once Wilson crossed midfield with 2 TO, first down, and a 1:13 , I thought it was going to be a classic Russell Wilson rabbit-out-of-hat scenario. That's what he does. I've seen it too many times and figured we were about to get another dose...
Thankfully the "12th Man" wasn't there today and thank the Football Gods for letting the better team win today.
I was just waiting for some bullsh-t flag on that 4th down to bail out Wilson, too, btw...
But the trade remains the worst I can remember in the history of the team. The criticism of the trade never had a thing to with LW as a player. And as Matt points out above, we have overpaid for LW and with his continued success we will almost certainly continue to have to overpay for LW. But, there’s people who see this and then there’s people who see something else. I will say LW is playing much better than I thought he was capable. He’s having a great season. And yes, I would sign him but you have to remember the NFL is as much about resource allocation as it is about talented evaluation.
Anyway, LW was a fucking beast today and I loved watching the game!
But the trade remains the worst I can remember in the history of the team. The criticism of the trade never had a thing to with LW as a player. And as Matt points out above, we have overpaid for LW and with his continued success we will almost certainly continue to have to overpay for LW. But, there’s people who see this and then there’s people who see something else. I will say LW is playing much better than I thought he was capable. He’s having a great season. And yes, I would sign him but you have to remember the NFL is as much about resource allocation as it is about talented evaluation.
Anyway, LW was a fucking beast today and I loved watching the game!
Dumb. One of the worst you can remember? GTFOH. Such a dumb hot take.
I found the trade strange at the time, but looks like it has worked out thus far. I hope we can sign him.
For the crowd that thinks we could have signed him as a FA, I don't think that was a slam dunk or likely at all. We've been a losing organization, just jettisoned basically the whole roster in 2 years, starting with our 4th coach in 6 years, and playing in a city that has skewered him for not getting enough sacks. I don't think we we would've an attractive option for him.
and the Jets retained him and he continued to play the way was playing for them, what do you think he would have gotten on the FA market? Is 3 years, $30M way off, with some guaranteed money?
I just think they could have had him cheaper than what he is seeking now. The Giants are basically stuck after this game. If he finished the season strong, they basically can't let him walk because he will be the first legitimate FA player they've had to retain in a long time, outside OBJ. On the other hand, cap-wise they may regret it in a year or two when they have no room to maneuver.
Just pay him his worth and be done with it. He’s as sure a thing as possible. Good teams pay good players.
djm - My worry is him not being a sure thing. This season is out of line for him. Even his previous best season in 2016 wasn't this good. So, how do you bet on him doing it again, 3 or 4 more times at a very premium price?
Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
(...) what do you think he would have gotten on the FA market? Is 3 years, $30M way off (...)
Since you asked... yes, it is. Jonathan Hankins got $10 million per three years ago, and he was a third round pick who couldn't get any pass rush at all (with Snacks playing at a pro bowl level next to him).
The notion that the Giants would have automatically been able to sign Williams and do so cheaply is severely misguided. Someone would have seen the value and paid him decently. The people who make these decisions do it professionally, they don't just check in once a week to offer a quick opinion...
(...) what do you think he would have gotten on the FA market? Is 3 years, $30M way off (...)
Since you asked... yes, it is. Jonathan Hankins got $10 million per three years ago, and he was a third round pick who couldn't get any pass rush at all (with Snacks playing at a pro bowl level next to him).
The notion that the Giants would have automatically been able to sign Williams and do so cheaply is severely misguided. Someone would have seen the value and paid him decently. The people who make these decisions do it professionally, they don't just check in once a week to offer a quick opinion...
And, in my scenario, Williams would have been a FA DL coming off a season with 0 sacks and about 30 tackles. That isn't big money territory.
Also, Hankins became a FA after having 3 sacks and 33 tackles. He also had a career high 7 sacks just 2 seasons before that. At that point in his career, he was not that different than Williams, production wise.
of the trade was to make sure the Giants wouldn’t have to bid against other teams in FA. What could have happened is that another team could have been able to offer him more money than the Giants could, there’s no guarantee they could have simply just signed him in FA as many are suggesting. As Gettlemen said, ‘The juice was worth the squeeze.’ It’s not hard to understand, the team needed an infusion of talent on the defense and they saw the opportunity to add him.The likelihood a 3rd-rounder would have the impact he is right now is much smaller.
Also, I recall just this past offseason someone still saying the Eli trade was bad..after two Superbowl MVPs against the greatest dynasty this league has ever seen. No trade is bad if it directly results in two Super Bowl wins.
RE: RE: RE: Had the Giants not traded for Williams
(...) Hankins (...) At that point in his career, he was not that different than Williams (...)
Mr. Leonard - 6'5, 4.97 40m dash
Hankins - 6'3, 5.31 40m dash
There's a reason Williams was considered the second best player in the draft when he came out. And he was all of 25 during free agency.
Yes, there is a reason he was considered so highly in the draft. But, he and Hankins still had similar production. There is a reason the Jets were willing to trade someone once considered so highly in the draft. The player we are seeing is who they expected to get; it is not the player they received for most of his time there.
Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
is largely the same player he's always been. He was on a dysfunctional poorly coached D last year and - surprise surprise - he didn't have any stats.
It kills me that people think he had some sort of epiphany rather than understand he's playing within a great D now.
Leonard Williams was an outstanding player for the Jets, he was an outstanding player last year and he is again, this year.
LW was "outstanding" for the Jets? That's quite a loose definition of outstanding...
If the Jets are so poorly coached team - which is probably true - why is Quinnen Williams killing it for the Jets this year? And without LW as his partner...
it's a good thing that DG and the Giants saw this talent and potential in Williams while others did not. We got him while others were sleeping. Worrying about the contract at this point seems ridiculous to me. He's going to get paid and he's worth every penny.
Giving up ONLY a 3rd round pick for a guy who is playing like a top 5 DL will seem like a prescient move by Gettleman. Guy is playing lights out, just add a guy like Dupree or a stud ER in the draft, sign Leo, and this can be a top 5 NFL defense. Giants football is back!
....the question now is he worth the big contract? The idea was to sign and trade that year, and maybe get a good deal. But that didn't happen....still.............
He's been very durable, hardly ever misses a game.
What are the terms of a new deal? How does it work with our current salary cap.
In the end, the trade was a good one........whatever way it goes. The comp pick will be significant at this point, right?
value in the conversation and just focus on LW the player, which I think most people thought very highly of from the moment he was traded for.
I think that I don't see talked about enough in this whole LW thing is if the team was SO sure about him, why didn't he get locked up prior to this season? It seems like the team was as skeptical of him as a player as some posters were so to bring out the "I told you so's" when the same team that gave up two draft picks didn't get a long term commitment from him, they didn't exactly look prepared on it at all. And I think that's what people's problem is. Rarely do you see a player get traded and not sign a long term deal after picks are surrendered.
That's what some people seem to fail to realize in this. The story and timer on if this was a good deal starts when we ink him to the long term deal. Giving up picks to trade for a player never should or is about one year on a franchise tender. The concern is that the Giants didn't seem to have a plan with the player that reflected his perspective demands when they traded for him. His demands could very well again be beyond what his production dictated (as they were last year) and some players are just like that.
Once he is signed to a long term deal and we think we are at least getting fair value based on his production I am 100% willing to say the trade looks smarter than originally critiqued. And I think people are confused because of how weird it is to give up picks with a 1-7 team for a player in a contract year the burden of proof was high to show it was a smart move. Just because people saw a difficult contract situation and a player not performing up to the money they wanted meant that can say it was definitively a bad trade doesn't mean he can have a good season and it means it's automatically a good trade. Draft picks are valuable on a 3-4 year salary horizon and if he ends up an overpaid player on a team that is mediocre or bad, this great season he's having doesn't mean that much. Great players can still be bad value, I don't think some people really reflect they understand that concept.
Good thoughts. Team LW have to feel they are in the pole position going into the offseason in terms of first ask.
I'd still let Team LW walk and say thanks for a great year. Just don't feel comfortable with paying for what looks like - finally - a real breakthrough year. If we decide to keep him, I'd FT one more time...
the "why didn't he sign long term" argument is overflowing w hypocrasy
the NYG have been clear from day 1 they wanted to keep LW but that doesn't mean you hand him or any player a blank check. It's a salary negotiation where it takes BOTH SIDES to form an agreement.
I think I have whiplash from the abrupt shift in opinion from the "leonard williams is overpaid" crew. Just a few weeks ago he wasn't worth the $16m tag now the NYG made a mistake by not paying him more?
Should they have paid him whatever he wanted and ignored their option to simply tag him and pay $16m this year?
Should they ignore that option again next year if LW says he wants Aaron Donald money?
I'm actually pointing out the hypocrisy in people saying "See DG was smart he knew he was going to be this player!" if he did actually know that he would have signed him long term is my point.
The Giants played it like this with the FT because they were skeptical too and there is no other way to slice it. Which leads to the other relevant point of what were they expecting when they traded for him? What was their plan?
He was traded for during a losing season; he seemingly played well last season; the team didn't pursue a DT in free agency or draft; and he was tagged (not transitional but franchise) allowing for additional months to sort out a contract, and most importantly he fits the vision of what this GM is trying to build here.
What is the issue because his price tag isn't going down?
the NYG have been clear from day 1 they wanted to keep LW but that doesn't mean you hand him or any player a blank check. It's a salary negotiation where it takes BOTH SIDES to form an agreement.
I think I have whiplash from the abrupt shift in opinion from the "leonard williams is overpaid" crew. Just a few weeks ago he wasn't worth the $16m tag now the NYG made a mistake by not paying him more?
Should they have paid him whatever he wanted and ignored their option to simply tag him and pay $16m this year?
Should they ignore that option again next year if LW says he wants Aaron Donald money?
It's not hypocrisy nor a change in opinion to question why he isn't signed to an extended contract. It is part and parcel to spending value to pursuing him on a losing team and then not completing the deal. This is the GM's vision and presumably plan...go execute it as the price is only going up, right?
I'm actually pointing out the hypocrisy in people saying "See DG was smart he knew he was going to be this player!" if he did actually know that he would have signed him long term is my point.
The Giants played it like this with the FT because they were skeptical too and there is no other way to slice it. Which leads to the other relevant point of what were they expecting when they traded for him? What was their plan?
My god is this a horrendous take. I don't know if it's intellectual dishonesty or gettleman dysmorphia but this has got to be the stupidest take du jour.
To answer your question about what their plan was - it seems simple to me because they commented publicly at each step in the process. They acquired a player they believed in, attempted to sign him to a long term contract, and in absence of an agreement with the player fell back on the option pay him as a top 5 player at his position.
They will likely negotiate with him again this offseason, and tag him again if they can't come to an agreement.
Unless you think the better negotiating style is giving players whatever they ask for?
Nope, but there are other options that can be pursued
I'm actually pointing out the hypocrisy in people saying "See DG was smart he knew he was going to be this player!" if he did actually know that he would have signed him long term is my point.
The Giants played it like this with the FT because they were skeptical too and there is no other way to slice it. Which leads to the other relevant point of what were they expecting when they traded for him? What was their plan?
My god is this a horrendous take. I don't know if it's intellectual dishonesty or gettleman dysmorphia but this has got to be the stupidest take du jour.
To answer your question about what their plan was - it seems simple to me because they commented publicly at each step in the process. They acquired a player they believed in, attempted to sign him to a long term contract, and in absence of an agreement with the player fell back on the option pay him as a top 5 player at his position.
They will likely negotiate with him again this offseason, and tag him again if they can't come to an agreement.
Unless you think the better negotiating style is giving players whatever they ask for?
Keep up the good fight, Eric. Holy smokes these are some bad takes. Some are just never going to admit the Giants had a plan with LW and they are still trying to execute such plan. Doesn’t fit their narrative.
No I don't think it is good to write a blank check
but you aren't acknowledging that the trade put them in a terrible negotiating position. What in what I was saying said they should give him a blank check?
I am saying that there is a reason many teams trade picks and ensure they can agree on a long term deal as the trade is being made, to avoid situations like the one we are in now.
It isn't really a good strategy to trade for a player and franchise them two years in a row, players want long term deals and you strain the relationship with them.
I don't know what is so "horrendous" about the take of it is good to sign a player long term when you trade draft picks for them and do your diligence on what that will take before the deal is completed.
Good thoughts. Team LW have to feel they are in the pole position going into the offseason in terms of first ask.
I'd still let Team LW walk and say thanks for a great year. Just don't feel comfortable with paying for what looks like - finally - a real breakthrough year. If we decide to keep him, I'd FT one more time...
Agree on tag. I absolutely love the season he is having. But, one, I don't trust we will see it again and two, I don't think it is a $20M season.
RE: RE: Not liking the trade was never about Williams
Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
Interesting question. With each week, I am becoming worried we will lose Graham this off season. That really scares me.
As for Williams, the only thing I can say in terms of expectations moving forward is he isn't the typical FA coming out of nowhere in a contract year. He has had some success before, even if moderate. But, more importantly, all year long he is double and even triple teamed. So, it's not like a typical DL that has a big year in large part because he is defended 1 on 1 or benefits from another great DL alongside him and then when he gets the payday and the attention of OLs he disappears. That isn't an issue here. But, I still can't be certain he will maintain a level of production even close to this.
it's a good thing that DG and the Giants saw this talent and potential in Williams while others did not. We got him while others were sleeping. Worrying about the contract at this point seems ridiculous to me. He's going to get paid and he's worth every penny.
I am just happy we found Williams.
I just don't see how you can say he is worth every penny. He wants Donald money, but isn't Donald. And he has not consistent track record of this play to be able to expect it. Even looking just at this season, I can't see committing $20M per for 5 years. That could be a debilitating contract moving forward.
RE: No I don't think it is good to write a blank check
but you aren't acknowledging that the trade put them in a terrible negotiating position. What in what I was saying said they should give him a blank check?
I am saying that there is a reason many teams trade picks and ensure they can agree on a long term deal as the trade is being made, to avoid situations like the one we are in now.
It isn't really a good strategy to trade for a player and franchise them two years in a row, players want long term deals and you strain the relationship with them.
I don't know what is so "horrendous" about the take of it is good to sign a player long term when you trade draft picks for them and do your diligence on what that will take before the deal is completed.
The bad take was saying it was a mistake that they didn't extend him when they clearly wanted and tried to do. They can't make the player say yes.
The horrendous take is saying that despite all evidence to the contrary, they didn't believe in the player because they couldn't agree to a contract.
Ideally he would have resigned reasonably. Nobody would disagree with that opinion. Ideally they wouldn't have had to trade for him. Nobody would disagree with that one either. But we live in the world we have not always the world we want. If they didn't trade for him someone else was going to. And if Leonard Williams wanted to hold out to be paid more than was offered he had that right.
By trading for him the NYG got his rights and correctly exercised the tag - especially given the fact that they had a new coaching staff implementing a new scheme. There was zero downside in paying the player LESS than he wanted and should they choose to they can do it again next year.
I think, as in any negotiation, there is a degree of "good faith"...
The Giants invested draft capital in Williams, and I'm sure before they did that they had a discussion about an extension.
Williams didn't feel like half a season on another shitty team was a good representation of his value, so the Giants franchised him and he essentially has a one year "prove your worth it" year.
Now, Williams has proved it and he and the Giants return to the table. But the Giants are not without options. They still have the threat of tagging him again, which starts the process over, and it's not without risk to Williams. He could get injured. Or, he could lose leverage with a sub par to this year performance. There are a lot of unknowns if the Giants tag him again.
So what will likely happen is that both sides will return to the table again and a deal will get done that benefits both sides, that started in good faith last year.
First off, he definitely was better with us than he was last year for the Jets. With the Jets he has one good year in 2016. The rest were mediocre and why they wanted to deal him. They were content with his production, especially for a 1st round pick and had no interest in paying him.
For us, he played well and was better than the rest of our DL. But, what was that really saying last year? He had no sacks and not a lot of tackles. Yes, I know he got some pressures and just misses. That isn't a $20M player.
Even with 2016 in mind, this is the first season Williams can be called outstanding and/or having lived up to his draft day expectations.
RE: I think, as in any negotiation, there is a degree of
The Giants invested draft capital in Williams, and I'm sure before they did that they had a discussion about an extension.
Williams didn't feel like half a season on another shitty team was a good representation of his value, so the Giants franchised him and he essentially has a one year "prove your worth it" year.
Now, Williams has proved it and he and the Giants return to the table. But the Giants are not without options. They still have the threat of tagging him again, which starts the process over, and it's not without risk to Williams. He could get injured. Or, he could lose leverage with a sub par to this year performance. There are a lot of unknowns if the Giants tag him again.
So what will likely happen is that both sides will return to the table again and a deal will get done that benefits both sides, that started in good faith last year.
It's not like tagging him doesn't make him a very wealthy man. It just is another single year with no guarantees for the future. But, back to back tags would leave with with nearly $40M for 2 years of service.
it's a good thing that DG and the Giants saw this talent and potential in Williams while others did not. We got him while others were sleeping. Worrying about the contract at this point seems ridiculous to me. He's going to get paid and he's worth every penny.
I am just happy we found Williams.
I just don't see how you can say he is worth every penny. He wants Donald money, but isn't Donald. And he has not consistent track record of this play to be able to expect it. Even looking just at this season, I can't see committing $20M per for 5 years. That could be a debilitating contract moving forward.
a) Donald makes 22.5m per year
b) he has never said he wants Donald money (Ralph V. reported him wanting 18-20m when they were negotiating)
I do think after this year he is going to be looking at close to Jones/Buckner money, and he probably has a very good case to get it. But even those deals are a little deceiving relative to Donald - the amount of guaranteed money he received was about $30m higher than both. Christian did a good breakdown of the Buckner contract on one of the other recent LW threads.
I agree with you on the price Matt suggested (~$20M)
I don't really expect him to be reasonable but to me Judge this coaching staff is the X-factor. When people talked about LW liking NY and signing for a discount I was very skeptical but I could see people wanting to play for this coaching staff and taking a discount for sure. You can't exactly give DG credit for this though as when he made the trade people pretty much universally were panning our DC and HC. That is actually another issue I had with the trade, sending a player into a lame duck coaching situation isn't exactly the best way to create a fond image of the team.
I'd be fine with him at $18M and not at $20M it's really as simple as that. Some people might say you don't want to lose one of your best players over $2M but building a team is more than saying is this player good or bad.
If we never traded for him and assuming two things:
1) He remained with the Jets
2) He maintained the same level of play with them (not even elevating to what we got)
What do you think he would have brought in via FA last off season? I honestly think we did him a favor. There is no way he was getting near the tag value based on prior production. We gave him a change of scenery to up his value some. But, without that, is he much more than a $30-40M/3 years guy?
It is very possible that he will want to go to the team that pays the most. Many players can and do.
In that case, the Giants are seeing his price tag go up this year based on his performance.
On the other hand, one must consider that LW will decide that the largest contract is NOT what he cares about the most. After ending up on the Jets, he may know full well that he doesn't want to play for a loser organization no matter what. He just might decide he wants to play for an organization that he believes will give him a chance to win, as long as the offer makes him wealthy.
Having said that, perhaps the Giants recent play is working in their favor in terms of reaching a long-term agreement with LW. He seems quite happy with the organization. Check out these quotes from last night:
Quote:
It's been fun. The scheme has been fun. The guys around me have been helping me play great. The system has been helping me play great. The energy on the team has been helping me play great...
Quote:
I feel like we have a real culture now, and I love how this team is going.
With him saying things like this, is it possible that he no longer will hold out for the highest dollar contract possible before signing a long-term deal? Could it be that he will sign a reasonable extension (obviously highly paid) rather than hitting free agency to max out his contract?
RE: I think, as in any negotiation, there is a degree of
The Giants invested draft capital in Williams, and I'm sure before they did that they had a discussion about an extension.
Williams didn't feel like half a season on another shitty team was a good representation of his value, so the Giants franchised him and he essentially has a one year "prove your worth it" year.
Now, Williams has proved it and he and the Giants return to the table. But the Giants are not without options. They still have the threat of tagging him again, which starts the process over, and it's not without risk to Williams. He could get injured. Or, he could lose leverage with a sub par to this year performance. There are a lot of unknowns if the Giants tag him again.
So what will likely happen is that both sides will return to the table again and a deal will get done that benefits both sides, that started in good faith last year.
Agree Britt. I suspect he will get a deal very similar to the Jones/Buckner deals signed last year. Jones got 4x80m w/ 37m gtd at signing, Buckner got 4x84m w/ 39m gtd at signing.
I'd imagine last offseason the NYG offer was more in the 16/17m AAV (4x60m-70m) range and LW thought he may as well just play the year on the 16m tag and try to increase his value to the 18-20m range.
The decline in the cap in 2022 will put pressure on LWs' demands
But I think his ramp-up in performance will make Eric's numbers look realistic. I say $18-19mm per. Structuring the cap hit will be an interesting project for the Giants.
Btw, Aaron Donald has a cap hit of $25.0mm this season
I agree that sometimes it's more about the whole team. I hate that a discussion like this always seems to boil down to being accused disliking a player. I don't dislike Williams nor do I think this team experiences their resurgence in the second half of the season without him. The only thing I object to is the price. And that objection is because I don't know if this is the same player we will get for even 3 years, let alone 5. This is his 6th year in the league and he never before approached this level of play. It is a legitimate concern to ask if it is because it's a contract year.
On the other hand, it is a legitimate argument from him to say we both bet on me this year with the tag. I delivered, now you must. In that regard, the tag worked as intended for both. The Giants got the production they wanted and Williams backed up his request. Now, I think the Giants will feel pressured to re-sign him and will overpay. We can only hope collectively that he plays somewhere near this level, especially with the prospect of Graham being gone.
and I'd love to sign him to an incentive laden deal with roster bonuses. (Fine to do pressures, TFLs and not sacks)
I'd also go further to say that I wouldn't mind the 2nd year of the franchise tag if I had confidence it wouldn't create issues for him. (I think it likely would)
I wouldn't say the draft picks are worth two years though, and that is where I think a cohesive strategy to win is very important.
These days increasingly in the NFL it is very hard to sustain success and you have to kind of line up your assets. That 3rd and 4th round pick we traded for him had the opportunity to add value to teams more in our likely competition window. And to me that's where the draft pick thing is important. In the end, it looks like we will sign him to the kind of overpay deal that players on the open market sign and players of his caliber are available at every offseason for the overpay.
IMO you should only trade picks for a player who you have locked in at a good price, especially without the cap hit of the bonus or A+ premium players like Ramsey that are never going to hit FA. And IF you are going to trade for a non-elite player without time left on their deal, you have to agree to terms at the time of the trade. The reasons are obvious why you'd want to do it in only these ways...
RE: RE: Not liking the trade was never about Williams
Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
What in the actual fuck?????
Holy shit.
We have one poster who continues to think that Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux played RG in college (hint: neither ever did). We have another poster who thinks himself a football oracle (when asked for the stud receivers that UGA recruited, he brought up Mecole Hardman....with a straight face and condescending tone).
You two are criticizing our very best player and also offering nothing in defense of the fact that it takes quite a while for D Linemen to "get it".
The worst is poster 2 defending letting go of the best player on the D line that sacked Russell Wilson 3 times yesterdaY because he is in a contract year.
Literally cant make this up. How did that work out when we let Cornelius Griffin walk? How about Linval?
What happens when the posters who think they are the smartest say the dumbest shit?
Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
What in the actual fuck?????
Holy shit.
We have one poster who continues to think that Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux played RG in college (hint: neither ever did). We have another poster who thinks himself a football oracle (when asked for the stud receivers that UGA recruited, he brought up Mecole Hardman....with a straight face and condescending tone).
You two are criticizing our very best player and also offering nothing in defense of the fact that it takes quite a while for D Linemen to "get it".
The worst is poster 2 defending letting go of the best player on the D line that sacked Russell Wilson 3 times yesterdaY because he is in a contract year.
Literally cant make this up. How did that work out when we let Cornelius Griffin walk? How about Linval?
What happens when the posters who think they are the smartest say the dumbest shit?
No, I thought Hernandez played RG. I never said that about Lemieux and expressly said that is one reason I wanted him at LG. I may have not remembered the article about him and Zeitler correctly, but so far the end result seems to be correct. Get over it.
I'm not criticizing our best player. I do not have a bad thing to say about Williams' performance this season. I am skeptical about paying the man as much as $20M per year. Those are two completely different things.
and I'd love to sign him to an incentive laden deal with roster bonuses. (Fine to do pressures, TFLs and not sacks)
I'd also go further to say that I wouldn't mind the 2nd year of the franchise tag if I had confidence it wouldn't create issues for him. (I think it likely would)
I wouldn't say the draft picks are worth two years though, and that is where I think a cohesive strategy to win is very important.
These days increasingly in the NFL it is very hard to sustain success and you have to kind of line up your assets. That 3rd and 4th round pick we traded for him had the opportunity to add value to teams more in our likely competition window. And to me that's where the draft pick thing is important. In the end, it looks like we will sign him to the kind of overpay deal that players on the open market sign and players of his caliber are available at every offseason for the overpay.
IMO you should only trade picks for a player who you have locked in at a good price, especially without the cap hit of the bonus or A+ premium players like Ramsey that are never going to hit FA. And IF you are going to trade for a non-elite player without time left on their deal, you have to agree to terms at the time of the trade. The reasons are obvious why you'd want to do it in only these ways...
I would love an incentive laden contract, especially with easily attained incentives. But, I don't think there is any way Williams accepts it and I don't blame him. I believe the Giants and him will iron out a deal. I think it will be overpaying for him, but I think he will be a good player for us moving forward. I'm just not sure he will continue to be this good. I will be the first person to admit I am wrong in a year or two if he proves me wrong and do it gladly.
Can you honestly and confidently say you expect and believe Williams will replicate this level of production not once but 3 or more times in the next 5? For me, that is what this boils down to. Based just on this season, yes, the man deserves to be paid. $20M? I don't think so. But, certainly a lot of money and near the top of his position. But, for a 5 year deal, it is different. That is being legitimately one of the top few at your position money. Does one season make that?
I think back to older defenses. In the 80s, if we had the cap, we would have had a similar decision for much better players, in my opinion. You know LT would get paid because he was the greatest player in the history of the league, in my opinion. But, what if we had the cap to worry about. We might have had to let Banks walk earlier than he did...or crippled our team with multiple large deals leaving the rest of the roster with crumbs.
Same thing happened with Armstead, for example. And others.
Again, I have no doubt this season deserves a payday. But, if we give it to him and he doesn't produce like this year multiple times we run the risk of crippling this team's chances of continuing to grow and improve. So, do you fully believe he will continue to earn $18-20M?
My other question is less clear? If we don't re-sign him (I think we will), does that mean we can sign 2 good FAs? Would we sign 1 big name? Nobody? Re-sign Tomlilnson instead? Will we re-sign Tomlinson in addition to Williams? Can we move forward with that much money invested in the DL?
Good thoughts. Team LW have to feel they are in the pole position going into the offseason in terms of first ask.
I'd still let Team LW walk and say thanks for a great year. Just don't feel comfortable with paying for what looks like - finally - a real breakthrough year. If we decide to keep him, I'd FT one more time...
Agree on tag. I absolutely love the season he is having. But, one, I don't trust we will see it again and two, I don't think it is a $20M season.
It's not a breakthrough year though. He's the same damn player. Stats are team dependant, especially for interior pass rushing DL. I imagine we'll be having this same conversation with Saquon next year, when he's magically the only guy in history to set his personal yardage records post injury.
To be 100% clear, so my views are not continued to be misrepresented
My concerns are only about the amount of money and length of deal. As a player, I 100% would like to plan on the next 3-5 seasons with Leonard Williams. He has far exceeded expectations. It is only once you factor in the deal he is likely to get that I think you can question the worth or value or risk.
Again, to be clear, I am NOT saying he is not a good player. I am also NOT saying he can't continue to be a good to very good player. I am NOT even saying he is not a great player based on this year. What I am saying is 2 things. One, he does not have a history of being a great player. Two, because of one, I think it is fair, after 6 seasons, to at least wonder if this year is an aberration or a sign of things to come.
RE: bw - I;d love to hear your answer to my question
If we never traded for him and assuming two things:
1) He remained with the Jets
2) He maintained the same level of play with them (not even elevating to what we got)
What do you think he would have brought in via FA last off season? I honestly think we did him a favor. There is no way he was getting near the tag value based on prior production. We gave him a change of scenery to up his value some. But, without that, is he much more than a $30-40M/3 years guy?
Under that scenario, and hitting the open market, I think Team LW would have been looking at Grady Jarrett as the comp. Jarrett received $68M/4 yrs in the summer of 2019. Around $17 AAV.
Jarrett, IMV, was better at the time. So I could see teams going back to Jurrell Casey's contract a few years back - again, similar players and production - and he got something like $60M/4 yrs. AAV of $15M.
Perhaps Team LW and a team settle on $16M AAV over 4.
I think we did LW a favor AND he did us a favor going into this year. He got the opportunity to really up his game and we got a chance to see in a system that seems to fit him very well.
Now it's going to get very interesting if LW continues his good play down the stretch. If so, the asking price is going to be enormous. Which is what Team LW should do...
I don't know the answer to these questions, but I think they are valid to ask for this level of pay. Is he really a better player or does the contract year factor in? Is he the beneficiary of the coaching/scheme/improved secondary play?
If the question was simply re-sign him, it gets a resounding yes from me. When the question is do we re-sign him at $18-20M for 5 years, I don't say yes. I can understand saying yes. But, I would lean toward no. And, if we say yes, I 100% hope my concerns are all proven to be unfounded by Williams and the faith in him is rewarded.
Stop saying I am criticizing Williams I am not. bw is not. Others who are concerned about a deal like this are not. Nobody dislikes Williams.
Good thoughts. Team LW have to feel they are in the pole position going into the offseason in terms of first ask.
I'd still let Team LW walk and say thanks for a great year. Just don't feel comfortable with paying for what looks like - finally - a real breakthrough year. If we decide to keep him, I'd FT one more time...
Agree on tag. I absolutely love the season he is having. But, one, I don't trust we will see it again and two, I don't think it is a $20M season.
It's not a breakthrough year though. He's the same damn player. Stats are team dependant, especially for interior pass rushing DL. I imagine we'll be having this same conversation with Saquon next year, when he's magically the only guy in history to set his personal yardage records post injury.
LW is on pace to get 12 sacks as DT. That's a big number. So that is a break through year.
RE: For those who disagree, just answer one question
Can you honestly and confidently say you expect and believe Williams will replicate this level of production not once but 3 or more times in the next 5? For me, that is what this boils down to. Based just on this season, yes, the man deserves to be paid. $20M? I don't think so. But, certainly a lot of money and near the top of his position. But, for a 5 year deal, it is different. That is being legitimately one of the top few at your position money. Does one season make that?
I think back to older defenses. In the 80s, if we had the cap, we would have had a similar decision for much better players, in my opinion. You know LT would get paid because he was the greatest player in the history of the league, in my opinion. But, what if we had the cap to worry about. We might have had to let Banks walk earlier than he did...or crippled our team with multiple large deals leaving the rest of the roster with crumbs.
Same thing happened with Armstead, for example. And others.
Again, I have no doubt this season deserves a payday. But, if we give it to him and he doesn't produce like this year multiple times we run the risk of crippling this team's chances of continuing to grow and improve. So, do you fully believe he will continue to earn $18-20M?
My other question is less clear? If we don't re-sign him (I think we will), does that mean we can sign 2 good FAs? Would we sign 1 big name? Nobody? Re-sign Tomlilnson instead? Will we re-sign Tomlinson in addition to Williams? Can we move forward with that much money invested in the DL?
If that's your bar, you'd literally never sign anyone in FA. What cripples the cap is when you sign a guy to big money and he is injuried or the type of play doesn't even come close to producing results that justify it. In fact, if we sign LW to a 5 year contract and his giving you close to the type of play we are seeing now it would have to be one of the bargains of the NFL in 2025. This is actually part of the Cowboys resigning strategy, and while risky, it can pay dividends. They try to sign their guys to deals for as long as possible for the ones worth it. They signed Tyron Smith to a 7 year deal although there is potential that bites them in the ass towards the end, but he's been a bargain for years now.
As far as crippling the cap, obviously you want to use your cap smartly, but I'd remind you of Nate Solder. He's been attrocious and it doesn't seem to be hurting us that much. What hurts the most is signing guys outside what the market is saying and hurt. The only reason the Vernon contract hurt because it was a preposterous contract for what the market dictated and he magically started to get hurt a lot after being very healthy for Dolphins. The market has been dictated here. Cam Heywerd just signed a 16.5 million contract for 4 years and he's over 30. I'd love to see LW sign for about 18 million, and think there's an outside shot here, but if 20 million is what it takes to get it done so be it. After that I start to understand the hesitation more and more.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Not liking the trade was never about Williams
Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
What in the actual fuck?????
Holy shit.
We have one poster who continues to think that Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux played RG in college (hint: neither ever did). We have another poster who thinks himself a football oracle (when asked for the stud receivers that UGA recruited, he brought up Mecole Hardman....with a straight face and condescending tone).
You two are criticizing our very best player and also offering nothing in defense of the fact that it takes quite a while for D Linemen to "get it".
The worst is poster 2 defending letting go of the best player on the D line that sacked Russell Wilson 3 times yesterdaY because he is in a contract year.
Literally cant make this up. How did that work out when we let Cornelius Griffin walk? How about Linval?
What happens when the posters who think they are the smartest say the dumbest shit?
No, I thought Hernandez played RG. I never said that about Lemieux and expressly said that is one reason I wanted him at LG. I may have not remembered the article about him and Zeitler correctly, but so far the end result seems to be correct. Get over it.
You def said that "both have experience at RG".... it was def a thing.
But its all good.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Not liking the trade was never about Williams
Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
What in the actual fuck?????
Holy shit.
We have one poster who continues to think that Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux played RG in college (hint: neither ever did). We have another poster who thinks himself a football oracle (when asked for the stud receivers that UGA recruited, he brought up Mecole Hardman....with a straight face and condescending tone).
You two are criticizing our very best player and also offering nothing in defense of the fact that it takes quite a while for D Linemen to "get it".
The worst is poster 2 defending letting go of the best player on the D line that sacked Russell Wilson 3 times yesterdaY because he is in a contract year.
Literally cant make this up. How did that work out when we let Cornelius Griffin walk? How about Linval?
What happens when the posters who think they are the smartest say the dumbest shit?
No, I thought Hernandez played RG. I never said that about Lemieux and expressly said that is one reason I wanted him at LG. I may have not remembered the article about him and Zeitler correctly, but so far the end result seems to be correct. Get over it.
You def said that "both have experience at RG".... it was def a thing.
But its all good.
And I wasnt referring to you when pointing out that someone suggested letting LW walk
RE: RE: bw - I;d love to hear your answer to my question
If we never traded for him and assuming two things:
1) He remained with the Jets
2) He maintained the same level of play with them (not even elevating to what we got)
What do you think he would have brought in via FA last off season? I honestly think we did him a favor. There is no way he was getting near the tag value based on prior production. We gave him a change of scenery to up his value some. But, without that, is he much more than a $30-40M/3 years guy?
Under that scenario, and hitting the open market, I think Team LW would have been looking at Grady Jarrett as the comp. Jarrett received $68M/4 yrs in the summer of 2019. Around $17 AAV.
Jarrett, IMV, was better at the time. So I could see teams going back to Jurrell Casey's contract a few years back - again, similar players and production - and he got something like $60M/4 yrs. AAV of $15M.
Perhaps Team LW and a team settle on $16M AAV over 4.
I think we did LW a favor AND he did us a favor going into this year. He got the opportunity to really up his game and we got a chance to see in a system that seems to fit him very well.
Now it's going to get very interesting if LW continues his good play down the stretch. If so, the asking price is going to be enormous. Which is what Team LW should do...
Exactly my take. First of all, I had him valued lower and from the looks of some of the deals being mentioned, too low. I would be very comfortable at $15M. When we get to the atmosphere he is looking to orbit, it concerns me.
I agree 100% with the notion that we did him a favor and he did us a favor. The tag worked out great for both parties. At the very worst, he upped his price and we got his very best for a year. At the best for both parties, we reach an agreement, he gets paid, and we get a very good DL for the next 3-5 years (I won't commit to 5 because you never know when it turns into a potential cap casualty). The only real losing scenario for Giants fans is signing him and he underperforms (or returns to the Jets version of Williams).
Williams is our best player on defense, he's at an indemand position
As far as crippling the cap, obviously you want to use your cap smartly, but I'd remind you of Nate Solder. He's been attrocious and it doesn't seem to be hurting us that much.
Solder opting out cleared up space for Logan Ryan to be on the team, see how that worked out nicely for us?
We've been steaming pile of crap both years we had his money on the books. He wasn't the only reason for that but this point makes zero sense.
A lot of people survive car accidents, doesn't mean you should point that out and drive sloppily.
BW...your missing the point. He's the same player, he's putting up
sacks because of the team and scheme around him. We now have 4 guys that consistently get decent push across the line and stay disciplined and a backend that covers well. He isn't playing edge where an explosive pass rush can produce sacks on its own and even those guys need to rely on their interior to help to get the most sacks they possible can. Not saying you don't, but this is why football can be tough to talk about with people that don't understand the game from an x's and o's and strategic standpoint. Stats are as much team as they are individual. Plenty of guys put up stats because of being in good situations and plenty don't when they are in shitty situations. It's why people went apoplectic when the Giants drafted DJ, it's why people questioned the Josh Allen when he came into league because of his completion percentage. Everything is so reliant on the other 11 guys around you.
Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
What in the actual fuck?????
Holy shit.
We have one poster who continues to think that Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux played RG in college (hint: neither ever did). We have another poster who thinks himself a football oracle (when asked for the stud receivers that UGA recruited, he brought up Mecole Hardman....with a straight face and condescending tone).
You two are criticizing our very best player and also offering nothing in defense of the fact that it takes quite a while for D Linemen to "get it".
The worst is poster 2 defending letting go of the best player on the D line that sacked Russell Wilson 3 times yesterdaY because he is in a contract year.
Literally cant make this up. How did that work out when we let Cornelius Griffin walk? How about Linval?
What happens when the posters who think they are the smartest say the dumbest shit?
No, I thought Hernandez played RG. I never said that about Lemieux and expressly said that is one reason I wanted him at LG. I may have not remembered the article about him and Zeitler correctly, but so far the end result seems to be correct. Get over it.
You def said that "both have experience at RG".... it was def a thing.
But its all good.
And I wasnt referring to you when pointing out that someone suggested letting LW walk
I never said they both had experience at RG. I explicity said Hernandez played RG in college and I was wrong. I don't continue to say that, as you suggest. From day one after the draft, I said I was intrigued about Lemieux at LG for the sole reason that is where he played and dominated in college.
The thing with Hernandez stemmed from an article centered around Zeitler from last year. If I remember correctly (I guess that is a question now), the writer suggested Zeitler played multiple positions for Buffalo, but played his best at LG. I thought I read that Hernandez played RG in college, so it would have made sense to move him to RG and play Zeitler at LG. I gotn that part wrong.
But, I never said anything about Lemieux at RG. I am 100% certain of that. I was also never interested in him at RG.
As for the future at RG, I think it is an interesting question. I think Zeitler the last few weeks has played better and might be the better of the two with Hernandez, However, I think being a little older and with his salary he is more likely to be gone as a cap casulty. So, do you proceed, at least on paper before FA and draft with Hernandez as the RG, do you get rid of both, or do you bring someone in for an open competition?
RE: For those who disagree, just answer one question
Can you honestly and confidently say you expect and believe Williams will replicate this level of production not once but 3 or more times in the next 5?
I would say chances are he goes back to being the player that he was before this season - players have their peak or career years. And that isn't a bad thing, esp if we do find that ER in the draft.......but money is an issue.
I am not under the impression he's finally figured it out. Guy's a hard worker, never misses a game, and things are falling right for him 2020.
However, you can make the case he's playing with better players and scheme, and this level of play is the new norm or close to it.
This will be a tough decision for DG (or whoever) & company.......
hard to look good if the people around you aren't.
But if you don't notice the higher frequency this year of LW beating and sometimes even abusing people in 1 on 1 matchups, we aren't watching the same games.
RE: RE: RE: bw - I;d love to hear your answer to my question
If we never traded for him and assuming two things:
1) He remained with the Jets
2) He maintained the same level of play with them (not even elevating to what we got)
What do you think he would have brought in via FA last off season? I honestly think we did him a favor. There is no way he was getting near the tag value based on prior production. We gave him a change of scenery to up his value some. But, without that, is he much more than a $30-40M/3 years guy?
Under that scenario, and hitting the open market, I think Team LW would have been looking at Grady Jarrett as the comp. Jarrett received $68M/4 yrs in the summer of 2019. Around $17 AAV.
Jarrett, IMV, was better at the time. So I could see teams going back to Jurrell Casey's contract a few years back - again, similar players and production - and he got something like $60M/4 yrs. AAV of $15M.
Perhaps Team LW and a team settle on $16M AAV over 4.
I think we did LW a favor AND he did us a favor going into this year. He got the opportunity to really up his game and we got a chance to see in a system that seems to fit him very well.
Now it's going to get very interesting if LW continues his good play down the stretch. If so, the asking price is going to be enormous. Which is what Team LW should do...
Exactly my take. First of all, I had him valued lower and from the looks of some of the deals being mentioned, too low. I would be very comfortable at $15M. When we get to the atmosphere he is looking to orbit, it concerns me.
I agree 100% with the notion that we did him a favor and he did us a favor. The tag worked out great for both parties. At the very worst, he upped his price and we got his very best for a year. At the best for both parties, we reach an agreement, he gets paid, and we get a very good DL for the next 3-5 years (I won't commit to 5 because you never know when it turns into a potential cap casualty). The only real losing scenario for Giants fans is signing him and he underperforms (or returns to the Jets version of Williams).
If the ask was $15M/year, Williams would have already been signed last spring.
RE: RE: RE: Not liking the trade was never about Williams
We have one poster who continues to think that Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux played RG in college (hint: neither ever did). We have another poster who thinks himself a football oracle (when asked for the stud receivers that UGA recruited, he brought up Mecole Hardman....with a straight face and condescending tone).
You two are criticizing our very best player and also offering nothing in defense of the fact that it takes quite a while for D Linemen to "get it".
The worst is poster 2 defending letting go of the best player on the D line that sacked Russell Wilson 3 times yesterdaY because he is in a contract year.
Literally cant make this up. How did that work out when we let Cornelius Griffin walk? How about Linval?
What happens when the posters who think they are the smartest say the dumbest shit?
They refer to themselves as "chopperhatch".
I have no idea why anyone thinks the Giants would be better
We finally have an extremely stout young D-Line that plays excellent together and which is led by LW, and yet you have members posting the weakest arguments to not sign this guy. It's the same individuals who have ragged the deal from the start and IMO their egos can't handle the fact they were wrong and just double down in here.
So now the argument to incest a large chunk of the cap on Williams
is Solder sucks and he has a big contract? First of all, the only reason his contract isn't killing us is he elected not to play this year due to COVID. Otherwise, he would likely be our LT (ugh) and his salary would prohibit us from making one or more deals we made to shore up the D in response to injuries and other circumstances.
Second, we paid him like a top 5 OL. He has been a mediocre LT, at best. That has absolutely been debilitating. It forced us to spend a premium pick on another LT. It forced us to play a shitty LT because of his salary. It eats up a lot of cap space. The bad side is, and I am not sure of this, but opting out extends his deal by a year, which means we will have his salary back on the books next year, because we wouldn';t cut him until the following year.
I'll admit I'm surprised that Williams had this kind of a ceiling. I guess there's something to be said for a change of scenery, particularly given how dysfunctional the Jets organization is and has been.
That said, the argument can still be made that it would have been more beneficial to pursue Williams in free agency rather than sacrificing draft picks to acquire him.
Assuming the market for him would have been limited given his pedestrian Jets resume, he could currently be playing in year one of a 3-4 year deal at something like $13-14 million per. Instead, he's playing on the franchise tag, and looking at a huge payday in the offseason.
All that said, he's been much better than I anticipated.
RE: RE: For those who disagree, just answer one question
Can you honestly and confidently say you expect and believe Williams will replicate this level of production not once but 3 or more times in the next 5?
I would say chances are he goes back to being the player that he was before this season - players have their peak or career years. And that isn't a bad thing, esp if we do find that ER in the draft.......but money is an issue.
I am not under the impression he's finally figured it out. Guy's a hard worker, never misses a game, and things are falling right for him 2020.
However, you can make the case he's playing with better players and scheme, and this level of play is the new norm or close to it.
This will be a tough decision for DG (or whoever) & company.......
I find this as one of the most fair assessments I've seen.
As far as crippling the cap, obviously you want to use your cap smartly, but I'd remind you of Nate Solder. He's been attrocious and it doesn't seem to be hurting us that much.
Solder opting out cleared up space for Logan Ryan to be on the team, see how that worked out nicely for us?
We've been steaming pile of crap both years we had his money on the books. He wasn't the only reason for that but this point makes zero sense.
A lot of people survive car accidents, doesn't mean you should point that out and drive sloppily.
This is a good point and I thought about that while making this post actually. I was more referencing moving forward. It hasn't handicapped us all that much as far as 2021 is concerned. Obviously you want to make best use of you cap dollars and that signing absolutely does hurt, but I was more referencing this as it pertains to LW. Paying a guy market value, that has been very healthy, that is only 25 or 26 will almost certainly not hurt.
Solder was a slightly declining player at 30 that fell of the cliff, it was a risky gamble. We however have no idea what the stipulations of taking the Giants job in 2018 were. Because all the people that point to DG being an absolute failure, I point to them it was only really bad in 2018.
Moving forward has been really good. Especially considering the fact that in season in 2018, either he realized his mistake or it was an easy sell to ownership this wasn't going to be a quick fix. In fact the further we get, the better the moves start to look, which would have killed that argument this year, if we didn't start 0-5 and currently sit at 5-7 there would be no argument.
I did a couple all 22 breakdowns last year and what was apparent to me is our coaching staff was some of the worst I've seen. DG was completely sunk by Shurmur and the clown car. After the Patriots game I was kind of perplexed that Shurmur could force results out of QBs and still don't have a theory on that. Not just schematically either, we know guys regressed under this coaching staff. Hal Hunter coaching our line made me sick. Personally, I put that at his feet actually as that's where I believe the signs point to, but I don't have tangible proof of that. I think he had a very minimal voice in hiring Judge, but once again, I have no proof of that.
RE: I have no idea why anyone thinks the Giants would be better
We finally have an extremely stout young D-Line that plays excellent together and which is led by LW, and yet you have members posting the weakest arguments to not sign this guy. It's the same individuals who have ragged the deal from the start and IMO their egos can't handle the fact they were wrong and just double down in here.
Again, don't misrepresent what anyone said. Who said the Giants would be better without him? Pretty much everyone said they would love to proceed with him on the DL. Even most that didn't like the trade never disliked the player. Speaking for myself, I liked the idea of adding Williams but once we knew he was their interest, I would have preferred via FA as opposed to trade. I firmly believe that could have happened for significantly less than the approximately $20M he is looking for.
At a lower price, I think it is the kind of signing that would have intrigued most. Some would question whether he was worth the $15M or so. Others would optimistically think a change of scenery would potentially yield the player the Jets thought they were getting. If he then went out and played like this, we'd feel like we got a steal. If he went out and played like he did for us last year, we'd be happy, but looking for more. If he played like he did for most of his Jets career, we'd be pissed and ripping Gettleman.
I still do not love the trade, but I love the player we get. That doesn't mean I didn't want him or thought the 3rd round pick would outperform him. AGAIN, 2 notions that nobody here claimed (or at least I know I didn't). I would have liked to have snagged him in FA and had a 3rd round pick, especially with the draft we just had. I would like both. I would also like Williams for another 3-5 years, which unfortunately is not a foregone conclusion with what he is asking. I don't blame him for asking because he is having the season to back it up. I also expect the Giants to give him close to what he wants and him to take it. I only hope he continues to live up to it.
As far as crippling the cap, obviously you want to use your cap smartly, but I'd remind you of Nate Solder. He's been attrocious and it doesn't seem to be hurting us that much.
Solder opting out cleared up space for Logan Ryan to be on the team, see how that worked out nicely for us?
We've been steaming pile of crap both years we had his money on the books. He wasn't the only reason for that but this point makes zero sense.
A lot of people survive car accidents, doesn't mean you should point that out and drive sloppily.
This is a good point and I thought about that while making this post actually. I was more referencing moving forward. It hasn't handicapped us all that much as far as 2021 is concerned. Obviously you want to make best use of you cap dollars and that signing absolutely does hurt, but I was more referencing this as it pertains to LW. Paying a guy market value, that has been very healthy, that is only 25 or 26 will almost certainly not hurt.
Solder was a slightly declining player at 30 that fell of the cliff, it was a risky gamble. We however have no idea what the stipulations of taking the Giants job in 2018 were. Because all the people that point to DG being an absolute failure, I point to them it was only really bad in 2018.
Moving forward has been really good. Especially considering the fact that in season in 2018, either he realized his mistake or it was an easy sell to ownership this wasn't going to be a quick fix. In fact the further we get, the better the moves start to look, which would have killed that argument this year, if we didn't start 0-5 and currently sit at 5-7 there would be no argument.
I did a couple all 22 breakdowns last year and what was apparent to me is our coaching staff was some of the worst I've seen. DG was completely sunk by Shurmur and the clown car. After the Patriots game I was kind of perplexed that Shurmur could force results out of QBs and still don't have a theory on that. Not just schematically either, we know guys regressed under this coaching staff. Hal Hunter coaching our line made me sick. Personally, I put that at his feet actually as that's where I believe the signs point to, but I don't have tangible proof of that. I think he had a very minimal voice in hiring Judge, but once again, I have no proof of that.
But, it does factor in for 2021. His salary is back on the books. Depending on where the cap lands next year, that could be huge. It also may factor in to the very decision this thread is centered around.
RE: So now the argument to incest a large chunk of the cap on Williams
is Solder sucks and he has a big contract? First of all, the only reason his contract isn't killing us is he elected not to play this year due to COVID. Otherwise, he would likely be our LT (ugh) and his salary would prohibit us from making one or more deals we made to shore up the D in response to injuries and other circumstances.
Second, we paid him like a top 5 OL. He has been a mediocre LT, at best. That has absolutely been debilitating. It forced us to spend a premium pick on another LT. It forced us to play a shitty LT because of his salary. It eats up a lot of cap space. The bad side is, and I am not sure of this, but opting out extends his deal by a year, which means we will have his salary back on the books next year, because we wouldn';t cut him until the following year.
One - Solder has been of the worst tackles in football. The point is there were signs his play was declinging and we were singing a 30-year-old tackle to the most money ever at the position. I was more referencing as it pertains to 2021. Obviously SuperBowl caliber teams can't have contracts like that on books, but the point is that hasn't completely sunk us as far as being competitive goes and LW doesn't even come close to coming to those parameters you laid out. LW is the same damn player he has before this big sack season. The film bears that out.
And like you and BW I think it is a red flag when guys turn it up in a contract year. Gotta start asking yourself some questions to dive deeper. Personality-wise, he certainly isn't that. And if was just a contract year thing, why not last year as well? Last year was a contract year for him too.
hard to look good if the people around you aren't.
But if you don't notice the higher frequency this year of LW beating and sometimes even abusing people in 1 on 1 matchups, we aren't watching the same games.
He did the same, but the coverage was bad or we got zero from the edge. He's the same player. I will say yesterday he turned it up a notch, but that's variance and in my minds a good sign. I like guys that play like a man possessed in the biggest games, in close games, with the most stakes on the line, when I'm sure it was made clear to them all week are going to need a heroic effort for you with Colt starting at QB.
RE: RE: So now the argument to incest a large chunk of the cap on Williams
is Solder sucks and he has a big contract? First of all, the only reason his contract isn't killing us is he elected not to play this year due to COVID. Otherwise, he would likely be our LT (ugh) and his salary would prohibit us from making one or more deals we made to shore up the D in response to injuries and other circumstances.
Second, we paid him like a top 5 OL. He has been a mediocre LT, at best. That has absolutely been debilitating. It forced us to spend a premium pick on another LT. It forced us to play a shitty LT because of his salary. It eats up a lot of cap space. The bad side is, and I am not sure of this, but opting out extends his deal by a year, which means we will have his salary back on the books next year, because we wouldn';t cut him until the following year.
One - Solder has been of the worst tackles in football. The point is there were signs his play was declinging and we were singing a 30-year-old tackle to the most money ever at the position. I was more referencing as it pertains to 2021. Obviously SuperBowl caliber teams can't have contracts like that on books, but the point is that hasn't completely sunk us as far as being competitive goes and LW doesn't even come close to coming to those parameters you laid out. LW is the same damn player he has before this big sack season. The film bears that out.
And like you and BW I think it is a red flag when guys turn it up in a contract year. Gotta start asking yourself some questions to dive deeper. Personality-wise, he certainly isn't that. And if was just a contract year thing, why not last year as well? Last year was a contract year for him too.
One, I absolutely do not think Williams is the same player he always was. He is a significantly better player this year than at any other point in his career, except maybe 2016. Two, last year, once off the Jets, he did pick up his play, but it is a valid question that I've asked myself in re: to contract year.
Bottom line, if he was the same player he was on the Jets, I don't think we are having this conversation. The question, as with all FA, is this the player he will be for 3-5 years. I certainly hope so.
RE: RE: I have no idea why anyone thinks the Giants would be better
We finally have an extremely stout young D-Line that plays excellent together and which is led by LW, and yet you have members posting the weakest arguments to not sign this guy. It's the same individuals who have ragged the deal from the start and IMO their egos can't handle the fact they were wrong and just double down in here.
Again, don't misrepresent what anyone said. Who said the Giants would be better without him? Pretty much everyone said they would love to proceed with him on the DL. Even most that didn't like the trade never disliked the player. Speaking for myself, I liked the idea of adding Williams but once we knew he was their interest, I would have preferred via FA as opposed to trade. I firmly believe that could have happened for significantly less than the approximately $20M he is looking for.
At a lower price, I think it is the kind of signing that would have intrigued most. Some would question whether he was worth the $15M or so. Others would optimistically think a change of scenery would potentially yield the player the Jets thought they were getting. If he then went out and played like this, we'd feel like we got a steal. If he went out and played like he did for us last year, we'd be happy, but looking for more. If he played like he did for most of his Jets career, we'd be pissed and ripping Gettleman.
I still do not love the trade, but I love the player we get. That doesn't mean I didn't want him or thought the 3rd round pick would outperform him. AGAIN, 2 notions that nobody here claimed (or at least I know I didn't). I would have liked to have snagged him in FA and had a 3rd round pick, especially with the draft we just had. I would like both. I would also like Williams for another 3-5 years, which unfortunately is not a foregone conclusion with what he is asking. I don't blame him for asking because he is having the season to back it up. I also expect the Giants to give him close to what he wants and him to take it. I only hope he continues to live up to it.
I wasn't referencing you MM. I also view the trade in a way that the draft picks given up in no way assures you of getting an avg starter let alone the backbone of your D. Of course when first done it did appear to be a bit much for a player who had not fulfilled close to his potential yet. Now I think it was an excellent trade
RE: RE: RE: I have no idea why anyone thinks the Giants would be better
We finally have an extremely stout young D-Line that plays excellent together and which is led by LW, and yet you have members posting the weakest arguments to not sign this guy. It's the same individuals who have ragged the deal from the start and IMO their egos can't handle the fact they were wrong and just double down in here.
Again, don't misrepresent what anyone said. Who said the Giants would be better without him? Pretty much everyone said they would love to proceed with him on the DL. Even most that didn't like the trade never disliked the player. Speaking for myself, I liked the idea of adding Williams but once we knew he was their interest, I would have preferred via FA as opposed to trade. I firmly believe that could have happened for significantly less than the approximately $20M he is looking for.
At a lower price, I think it is the kind of signing that would have intrigued most. Some would question whether he was worth the $15M or so. Others would optimistically think a change of scenery would potentially yield the player the Jets thought they were getting. If he then went out and played like this, we'd feel like we got a steal. If he went out and played like he did for us last year, we'd be happy, but looking for more. If he played like he did for most of his Jets career, we'd be pissed and ripping Gettleman.
I still do not love the trade, but I love the player we get. That doesn't mean I didn't want him or thought the 3rd round pick would outperform him. AGAIN, 2 notions that nobody here claimed (or at least I know I didn't). I would have liked to have snagged him in FA and had a 3rd round pick, especially with the draft we just had. I would like both. I would also like Williams for another 3-5 years, which unfortunately is not a foregone conclusion with what he is asking. I don't blame him for asking because he is having the season to back it up. I also expect the Giants to give him close to what he wants and him to take it. I only hope he continues to live up to it.
I wasn't referencing you MM. I also view the trade in a way that the draft picks given up in no way assures you of getting an avg starter let alone the backbone of your D. Of course when first done it did appear to be a bit much for a player who had not fulfilled close to his potential yet. Now I think it was an excellent trade
Got it.
Should teams ever give any player a mega-contract?
That may be a valid position, but I find it interesting that literally every team in the NFL pays a select few of its players a lot of money. A GM could take the approach that they'll never pay more than say $9mm a year to anyone, ensuring that the team has a very solidly laid foundation of good but not outstanding players. Interestingly, none do. Which either suggests a lack of imagination or that the market is accurately pricing elite talent.
We can have that discussion in the abstract - I think it's a pretty interesting one - but if we accept that the Giants are not going to build their team that way, in that case the "peak year" argument when applied to Leonard W is just pure c**p (sorry to be blunt).
I remember reading in the draft write-ups when LW entered the NFL that many pro scouts thought he was the best player in the draft. On draft night, people were surprised that he slipped all the way to the Jets. Then he gets stuck playing for an abysmal organization. Next, he comes here and plays for Bettcher, actually playing pretty well. Now, he's suddenly on a team that is developing with excellent coaching and he's kicking butt.
What about this situation screams out that LW is a particular high risk signing? The answer is nothing. I haven't even brought up yet how everyone thinks he's a professional who is good in the locker room. Case closed.
He's certainly the same player he's been. He played like a man possessed yesterday, but I think that's a plus. Played well in big spots, in a big game, when the message all week was the defense needed a Herculian effort.
And please stop with the "we should have just signed him in FA". He wasn't getting to FA. Add to the fact that we certainly aren't going to be big players in FA this year and even on the offchance we don't resign him we'll get a 3rd comp pick.
The fact is salaries increase, especially for top players, every year
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
RE: Should teams ever give any player a mega-contract?
That may be a valid position, but I find it interesting that literally every team in the NFL pays a select few of its players a lot of money. A GM could take the approach that they'll never pay more than say $9mm a year to anyone, ensuring that the team has a very solidly laid foundation of good but not outstanding players. Interestingly, none do. Which either suggests a lack of imagination or that the market is accurately pricing elite talent.
We can have that discussion in the abstract - I think it's a pretty interesting one - but if we accept that the Giants are not going to build their team that way, in that case the "peak year" argument when applied to Leonard W is just pure c**p (sorry to be blunt).
I remember reading in the draft write-ups when LW entered the NFL that many pro scouts thought he was the best player in the draft. On draft night, people were surprised that he slipped all the way to the Jets. Then he gets stuck playing for an abysmal organization. Next, he comes here and plays for Bettcher, actually playing pretty well. Now, he's suddenly on a team that is developing with excellent coaching and he's kicking butt.
What about this situation screams out that LW is a particular high risk signing? The answer is nothing. I haven't even brought up yet how everyone thinks he's a professional who is good in the locker room. Case closed.
Exactly. In fact guys like LW don't make FA because their own teams resign them. The type of guys they let walk generally have injury red flags or are limited as players. Exactly why we had to trade for him and there were other suitors.
People are acting like he's a different player here I know are only results orientated and not process. Unless your name is Aaron Donald, you aren't generating sacks on your own as an interior DL. He's pretty much a unicorn in NFL history as far as interior DL go. And we won't even have to pay him like we would have to pay Donald. That was the impasse on Donald's contract for a while and that's why the Rams folded and gave him the contract.
Is finally the Big Cat. Did you see the athleticism on one of he RW sacks? He is nimble for a big man. Don't forget the cap is likely going down in 2021. He is going to get damn near Buckner money and I think we should pay it. Honestly, if the opportunity cost is Barkley's next contract I would rather have LW. It will be less, at a more important position.
The fact is salaries increase, especially for top players, every year
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
Agree, so why didn’t DG sign him earlier this year? Was he trying to save the Giants money but now actually caused the opposite?
RE: Should teams ever give any player a mega-contract?
What about this situation screams out that LW is a particular high risk signing? The answer is nothing. I haven't even brought up yet how everyone thinks he's a professional who is good in the locker room. Case closed.
At the right price, LW is not high risk. That's been the crux of the debate.
IMV, he's a good player. A good player playing pretty damn well right now. But is he a great player who deserves elite money?
I read that he's doing what LW has always done. Sorry, I don't buy that. He's closing the deal this year by taking the QB down. That is what great players do. They finish.
Do we remember all of the times LT nearly got to the QB? Uh, no. We remember that he closed.
RE: For those who disagree, just answer one question
Can you honestly and confidently say you expect and believe Williams will replicate this level of production not once but 3 or more times in the next 5?
IMO this is the wrong way of looking at this question.
If there was any "confident" way to replicate pro bowl production from a DL the going rate for players like LW wouldn't be $20m. And even more so if there were multiple ways to confidently replace that production.
So here's how I would phrase the right question. What is the best use of $ to purchase production in FA next year? Then you weigh that production against Leonard Williams cost/contributions.
If they believe he's been the best player on defense this year, and has the right work ethic, it's going to be very hard to find a player that can match his production because he also never misses games.
The fact is salaries increase, especially for top players, every year
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
Agree, so why didn’t DG sign him earlier this year? Was he trying to save the Giants money but now actually caused the opposite?
It's not a couple of million. It's saving more than that per year over 5 years and it is more about how much is guaranteed and the salary cap hit.
One thing bw said had me think about the question differently
Below is what Judge said about him after the win. I'll trust Judge and the GM to put their heads together and determine if signing Williams is worth the investment, and will be happy if it happens. The guy us a beast, in his prime, and a team leader. That's hard to replace.
Quote:
"That guy is a man. That dude is a man. There's things about Leo that you may not know by not being in the locker room with him. First off, this guy is a pleasure to be around. This guy smiles all the time. He's a great teammate, he's very coachable. You give him something to work on, he's going to work as hard as he can to master it. He gives us a lot of versatility on the defense because of his skillset. And this dude is just a guy that when you see him in your locker room before the game, he makes you feel a little bit better. Obviously there's statistics on the field that you see, what you don't see is what kind of guy he is to coach, what kind of teammate he is away from it. That's as important if not more important than all the statistics you see on the sheets. This guy helps everyone else raise their level of preparation and play."
The fact is salaries increase, especially for top players, every year
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
Agree, so why didn’t DG sign him earlier this year? Was he trying to save the Giants money but now actually caused the opposite?
There were rumors of him wanting 18-20 million that’s why. Hard to sign a guy with to that type of contract until proof is in the pudding. There’s also no benefit when you can just tag him at that point.
RE: One thing bw said had me think about the question differently
Is he a good/very good player playing great this year or is he a great player? Hard to say, because he never played at this level before.
Maybe he's....you know.....progressing? This is such an arm chair take. He's been an excellent player playing in poor overall conditions. Now he's playing in good conditions, for a good coaching staff, and looks much better as he approaches his prime. Not being able to evaluate a good player on a bad team is pretty lame. The guy had 17.5 sacks before he got to NY and the talk was "can this guy ever get a sack"? It's classic head in the ground, "I only watch the Giants" nonsense. Look at the thread when we originally acquired him - there are a few people who actually watched him play and followed his career that were happy about the trade. There's a reason for that.
RE: RE: So now the argument to incest a large chunk of the cap on Williams
What if he plays just good in 2021 like he did in 2019, but not as good as 2020?
What happens if Team LW suggests that is due to letting Dalvin walk in free agency and put more pressure on LW to perform? What happens if its because Bradberry or the secondary is banged up all year in 2021 and hurries/sacks drop for everybody.
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
RE: RE: RE: So now the argument to incest a large chunk of the cap on Williams
And if was just a contract year thing, why not last year as well? Last year was a contract year for him too.
This.
I'd feel a ton more comfortable dumping money on LW if he we saw this production two years in a row...........
Could the simple solution be franchise him a second time, and show me again?
That's a possibility, but also very likely he doesn't accept the tag. From his perspective, he'd be correct to do so. Both sides gambled on this year. He showed them what they wanted. Taking the tag again would be viewed as an unnecessary risk on his end.
RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
Correct. I may have a few reservations due to the contract he is seeking, but overall, this is a textbook case for the Franchise tag. You have a decent player obtained who played well, but not great. He wants big money, team isn't sure. Tag him and both sides gamble on this season. He delivered better than expected production, so he earned the tag this year and backs up his request. The team got what they wanted/needed to see. Like I said, I am worried that this was the first year we've seen from him like this in 6 seasons. But, as for the process, it works and the Giants really have to work something out with him.
RE: RE: One thing bw said had me think about the question differently
Is he a good/very good player playing great this year or is he a great player? Hard to say, because he never played at this level before.
Maybe he's....you know.....progressing? This is such an arm chair take. He's been an excellent player playing in poor overall conditions. Now he's playing in good conditions, for a good coaching staff, and looks much better as he approaches his prime. Not being able to evaluate a good player on a bad team is pretty lame. The guy had 17.5 sacks before he got to NY and the talk was "can this guy ever get a sack"? It's classic head in the ground, "I only watch the Giants" nonsense. Look at the thread when we originally acquired him - there are a few people who actually watched him play and followed his career that were happy about the trade. There's a reason for that.
How is that an armchair take? He was a high first round pick who never produced like one. The Jets may be a shitshow, but there are still expectations on 1st rounders. If he was our pick, many, if not most, would have been disappointed by last year. Then we traded for him last year and he played a little better, but not great. This season is the first time he has been a dominating force. This is his first great season. Why is that difficult?
It is 100% possible the combination of his work ethic and the coaching and the defensive system and the players around him are all contributing factors to a career improvement after 6 seasons. But, it is also possible that this year is an aberration. That unknown is what troubles some.
Nobody denies he is having a great season. Nobody here dislikes him. It is purely the business end of the decision about paying him in the ballpark of $18-20M for the next 5 years that worries some.
RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
It's not my hang up that's the issue at all. I want LW signed to a market deal as much as anybody. Hell, even a market deal+ at this stage, otherwise I don't know why he was traded for.
But the reason he is not already isn't going away imv.
Free Agency...it will clear up everything.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
It's not my hang up that's the issue at all. I want LW signed to a market deal as much as anybody. Hell, even a market deal+ at this stage, otherwise I don't know why he was traded for.
But the reason he is not already isn't going away imv.
Free Agency...it will clear up everything.
The reason is not is actually quite simple. The Giants were reluctant to pay the kind of money he was asking. They bought time by tagging him. Both sides did not meet an agreement before the deadline, so they each bank on the tag year. Williams bet on himself. Now, if the giants don't pay him, somebody else will. The Giants should have seen what they wanted and will likely pay him this offseason. This is a case where the tag worked out exactly how it is supposed to.
RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
The reason is not is actually quite simple. The Giants were reluctant to pay the kind of money he was asking. They bought time by tagging him. Both sides did not meet an agreement before the deadline, so they each bank on the tag year. Williams bet on himself. Now, if the giants don't pay him, somebody else will. The Giants should have seen what they wanted and will likely pay him this offseason. This is a case where the tag worked out exactly how it is supposed to.
Let's see how this works out.
RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
That is how I see it also, but I am resigned to him getting pretty close to his asking price. If he reverts back to even the play with us last year, it is overpaying. If he plays similar to this season for 2 or 3 more years, I am thrilled.
This notion that he was always this player is what is not sitting with me. You can say the Jets sucked. You can say we sucked and the scheme/lack of talent around him contributed to lack of stats. You can say whatever you want. But, never before this year was he a disruptive/dominating player. If we get anything resembling this player moving forward, everyone is happy (except NYG opponents). If we get the Jets Leonard Williams, people will be calling for his head.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
The reason is not is actually quite simple. The Giants were reluctant to pay the kind of money he was asking. They bought time by tagging him. Both sides did not meet an agreement before the deadline, so they each bank on the tag year. Williams bet on himself. Now, if the giants don't pay him, somebody else will. The Giants should have seen what they wanted and will likely pay him this offseason. This is a case where the tag worked out exactly how it is supposed to.
Let's see how this works out.
It's going to work out with the NYG giving LW a contract comparable to what Buckner/Jones got this past offseason. Read Judge's quote on Williams yesterday, never say never but it's unlikely they let him walk.
RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
That is how I see it also, but I am resigned to him getting pretty close to his asking price. If he reverts back to even the play with us last year, it is overpaying. If he plays similar to this season for 2 or 3 more years, I am thrilled.
This notion that he was always this player is what is not sitting with me. You can say the Jets sucked. You can say we sucked and the scheme/lack of talent around him contributed to lack of stats. You can say whatever you want. But, never before this year was he a disruptive/dominating player. If we get anything resembling this player moving forward, everyone is happy (except NYG opponents). If we get the Jets Leonard Williams, people will be calling for his head.
The risk of overpay (in an extended contract) has only grown in 2020. And it was pretty damn high already in 2019 because of the process that went down.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
The reason is not is actually quite simple. The Giants were reluctant to pay the kind of money he was asking. They bought time by tagging him. Both sides did not meet an agreement before the deadline, so they each bank on the tag year. Williams bet on himself. Now, if the giants don't pay him, somebody else will. The Giants should have seen what they wanted and will likely pay him this offseason. This is a case where the tag worked out exactly how it is supposed to.
Let's see how this works out.
It's going to work out with the NYG giving LW a contract comparable to what Buckner/Jones got this past offseason. Read Judge's quote on Williams yesterday, never say never but it's unlikely they let him walk.
I agree it's unlikely they let him walk, the process they went thru basically ensured it. And I read the quote.
All things helping Team LW.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
That is how I see it also, but I am resigned to him getting pretty close to his asking price. If he reverts back to even the play with us last year, it is overpaying. If he plays similar to this season for 2 or 3 more years, I am thrilled.
This notion that he was always this player is what is not sitting with me. You can say the Jets sucked. You can say we sucked and the scheme/lack of talent around him contributed to lack of stats. You can say whatever you want. But, never before this year was he a disruptive/dominating player. If we get anything resembling this player moving forward, everyone is happy (except NYG opponents). If we get the Jets Leonard Williams, people will be calling for his head.
The risk of overpay (in an extended contract) has only grown in 2020. And it was pretty damn high already in 2019 because of the process that went down.
I agree. But, at the same time you have to acknowledge that the likelihood of walking away also greatly diminished. You can't ask a player to put up or shut up and then not re-sign him after a season like this.
but something to think about, is Graham. I have read by some here that Williams is finally in a system and with a coach that suits him and allows his talent to shine. This notion that this is an ideal situation for him, how does the prospect of losing Graham this year or next weigh? I think you have to be banking on the player, not the system here.
I am not sure they actually asked him to put up or shut up.
Williams has proven the upside both the Jets and Giants suspected he had is true. Good for him.
I wish they would have signed him last year, so that the bulk of the guaranteed money hit in his 6th and 7th season. But it's not a tragedy if the bulk hits in his 7th and 8th.
I think his fair value right now is equal to the deal Buckner signed, $39.3M guaranteed at signing, with $44.3M total guarantees.
So long as it's in the Giants court whether to keep him on the team in his 9th and 10th NFL season.
you know what else leads to guys getting overpaid?
players who are on teams that win Super Bowls. It is a results business and players who produce results get paid. Leonard Williams is no different.
I for one am glad they didn't pay him pre-results because I don't think the discount would have been all that significant. It was reported he wanted 18-20m, so lets say he'd have taken 18x4. Would you have preferred to pay him 72m last year or 80m off this year?
IMO the test drive with new staff/scheme was well worth that 10% increase.
The Giants just ran out of options and are afraid of using free agency.
They didn't put it that way, but that is essentially what this tag amounted to. They were reluctant to pay. This season serves to help make that decision. While the tag is technically an option again, I don't see any way Williams accepts it.
He at least had consecutive years with 12 and 8 sacks with the 9ers. And he has essentially averaged 2X the sacks over his career versus LW. Not that this matters, but over the last three years when you talked about the best DTs in the NFL, Buckner was in the discussion.
I'm sticking with my original position:
(1) Let LW test the market to see what his true value is. If he walks, thanks for the last year of service.
(2) If the decision is to keep him, then we re-apply the tag. I don't trust DTs to have multiple great years unless they are from another planet like Donald.
is the fact that this thread and discussion is even taking place is a good thing. It means Williams is having a great season and played to a level that makes the Giants seriously consider re-signing him. I think the worst case scenario going into the off season would have been him playing like last year. He was playing very well, but nowhere near what could be considered elite. That would have left them with a much tougher decision. On the other hand, if he just stunk up the joint, it would probably mean the Giants still sucked, but at least it would also cement the decision not to sign him. With his play, it probably cements the decision to try to re-sign him.
is the fact that this thread and discussion is even taking place is a good thing. It means Williams is having a great season and played to a level that makes the Giants seriously consider re-signing him. I think the worst case scenario going into the off season would have been him playing like last year. He was playing very well, but nowhere near what could be considered elite. That would have left them with a much tougher decision. On the other hand, if he just stunk up the joint, it would probably mean the Giants still sucked, but at least it would also cement the decision not to sign him. With his play, it probably cements the decision to try to re-sign him.
Matt - with all do respect, I don't follow this logic. LW was specifically targeted and trade for by a losing team in the middle of the 2019 season. He was already exactly what they were looking for otherwise they shouldn't have done the deal. And I would think they saw more in him than he showed for the Jets otherwise why not see who else becomes available during free agency.
With that, they would have been far better off coming to an agreement (or had one in hand). Now I realize it takes two parties to agree to get it done, by how was the dynamic ever going to change and why would LW's price tag ever go down? Right now, it's Christmas time for Team LW under the cap and our guys made it happen.
He at least had consecutive years with 12 and 8 sacks with the 9ers. And he has essentially averaged 2X the sacks over his career versus LW. Not that this matters, but over the last three years when you talked about the best DTs in the NFL, Buckner was in the discussion.
I'm sticking with my original position:
(1) Let LW test the market to see what his true value is. If he walks, thanks for the last year of service.
(2) If the decision is to keep him, then we re-apply the tag. I don't trust DTs to have multiple great years unless they are from another planet like Donald.
1 is fine.
As to 2, if can get a market deal from him this offseason, his asking price is never going down.
He at least had consecutive years with 12 and 8 sacks with the 9ers. And he has essentially averaged 2X the sacks over his career versus LW. Not that this matters, but over the last three years when you talked about the best DTs in the NFL, Buckner was in the discussion.
I'm sticking with my original position:
(1) Let LW test the market to see what his true value is. If he walks, thanks for the last year of service.
(2) If the decision is to keep him, then we re-apply the tag. I don't trust DTs to have multiple great years unless they are from another planet like Donald.
The actuals in Buckner's deal are much more straight forward and less scary than the $84M/$21M AAV boogiemen numbers.
It's effectively a 2/$40.378 deal, with three 1 year options with zero guaranteed money in the last 3 years.
For 2/40M the Colts got 3 additional years of penalty free team control. Hell, in 2022 his cap hit is 16M total -- or they can cut him with no dead money.
William's franchise tender is going to be $19.35M. The most idiotic thing the team could do is pay him another 20M fully guaranteed with no future team control.
in light of his rapidly improving performance, and the appearance of their strategy to build the defense from the inside out, making a multiple DL a foundation piece as the pass rush engine.
The question is can they agree somewhere between $18-20M or does Camp LW hold the Giants up further, using Chris Jones' recent deal as a benchmark.
Make no mistake, the Giants made the trade trying to lock him in sooner, and LW chose to bet himself and he has won.
William's franchise tender is going to be $19.35M. The most idiotic thing the team could do is pay him another 20M fully guaranteed with no future team control.
I just see it differently. I think it's actually a smart hedge. Let's see LW do it again.
Good point on the Buckner deal. But now that the details are out of the bag on that, I can't imagine Team LW signing that deal.
Nor should they, btw. They should ask for the moon. We just shouldn't give it to him...
in light of his rapidly improving performance, and the appearance of their strategy to build the defense from the inside out, making a multiple DL a foundation piece as the pass rush engine.
The question is can they agree somewhere between $18-20M or does Camp LW hold the Giants up further, using Chris Jones' recent deal as a benchmark.
Make no mistake, the Giants made the trade trying to lock him in sooner, and LW chose to bet himself and he has won.
Always appreciate your insight JonC. As LW's performance, value and price rises, does that preclude signing Tomlinson altogether? Is there some point at which LW's market value and demands risw that the Giants would turn to resigning Tomlinson PLUS RYAN as a better value investment than allicating ~ 20+ mil per to Williams alone?
I even can imagine that signing Tomlinson plus Ryan plus extending BJ Hill would be seen as the better "value" play than paying LW over 20 mil per AAV...
I know your take has been, for quite awhile, that they would let Dalvin walk since the see him as more of a two down player, and ultimately more readily replaceable. In fact I think Lawrence getting snaps at 0 and 1 tech is a sort of preview for how the DL would work if DT is allowed to walk as an FA.
Do you have any insight as to how they currently wiew Hill and his upside?
in light of his rapidly improving performance, and the appearance of their strategy to build the defense from the inside out, making a multiple DL a foundation piece as the pass rush engine.
The question is can they agree somewhere between $18-20M or does Camp LW hold the Giants up further, using Chris Jones' recent deal as a benchmark.
Make no mistake, the Giants made the trade trying to lock him in sooner, and LW chose to bet himself and he has won.
It would suck the heart out the team to let him go. Listen to him. That smile. It is a big deal to have a guy play like, IE all the dirty work, rush the passer too and be a guy that brings the locker room up? He was holding pocket Aces and flopped another pair in Seattle.
I want him signed even it costs us Tomlinson. If the cost was Barkley, I would rather have money tied in LW. He showed up with big plays in the most important game we have played in years.
You can't give the coaching staff credit for LW without also crediting DG. The GM is supposed to find players that have something. Coaches are supposed to get that something out of them.
They tried for some time to trade him, and we've seen much more of Hill this season as well. DT is a position where players like DT are more readily found, and the Giants themselves have shown it works over the years.
My take is they won't look to re-sign everyone. They will re-sign LW and Ryan, two of their best defenders right now, and DT is gone to a higher bidder. He would make a lot of sense for the Cowboys, if you're looking for a team that could move to drive up the price.
Dexter looks the part, a shame McIntosh can't get off the bench but Hill and Johnson have contributed.
They tried for some time to trade him, and we've seen much more of Hill this season as well. DT is a position where players like DT are more readily found, and the Giants themselves have shown it works over the years.
My take is they won't look to re-sign everyone. They will re-sign LW and Ryan, two of their best defenders right now, and DT is gone to a higher bidder. He would make a lot of sense for the Cowboys, if you're looking for a team that could move to drive up the price.
Dexter looks the part, a shame McIntosh can't get off the bench but Hill and Johnson have contributed.
LW is a load 1v1. Coaching staff seems to be scheming to get him that.
William's franchise tender is going to be $19.35M. The most idiotic thing the team could do is pay him another 20M fully guaranteed with no future team control.
I just see it differently. I think it's actually a smart hedge. Let's see LW do it again.
Good point on the Buckner deal. But now that the details are out of the bag on that, I can't imagine Team LW signing that deal.
Nor should they, btw. They should ask for the moon. We just shouldn't give it to him...
Sorry, my snark is more tongue in cheek, not directed at you.
I'm just a firm believer in using guaranteed money as leverage to secure future cost/control. Eric in Li have argued the meat square off the bones with this one!
My view is if the Giants franchise him again, they'll have paid him $35.42M fully guaranteed in 20/21, which is approaching the fully dollars the top guys are getting in their whole deals. Last year was the time to sign him.
Chris Jones is another example -- his deal is 4/80M -- but in reality it's 2/37.6M. Years 3 and 4 are effectively team options.
Reminds me of the Cranberries record - "Everybody Else Is Doing It, So Why Can't We?"
William's franchise tender is going to be $19.35M. The most idiotic thing the team could do is pay him another 20M fully guaranteed with no future team control.
I just see it differently. I think it's actually a smart hedge. Let's see LW do it again.
Good point on the Buckner deal. But now that the details are out of the bag on that, I can't imagine Team LW signing that deal.
Nor should they, btw. They should ask for the moon. We just shouldn't give it to him...
Sorry, my snark is more tongue in cheek, not directed at you.
I'm just a firm believer in using guaranteed money as leverage to secure future cost/control. Eric in Li have argued the meat square off the bones with this one!
My view is if the Giants franchise him again, they'll have paid him $35.42M fully guaranteed in 20/21, which is approaching the fully dollars the top guys are getting in their whole deals. Last year was the time to sign him.
Chris Jones is another example -- his deal is 4/80M -- but in reality it's 2/37.6M. Years 3 and 4 are effectively team options.
Reminds me of the Cranberries record - "Everybody Else Is Doing It, So Why Can't We?"
We tried to sign him last year. Spilled milk. We don't beat Seattle without him. I can't imagine him not on the team next year. I would hate it. We should have met his demands this year. Whaddya gunna do?
is the fact that this thread and discussion is even taking place is a good thing. It means Williams is having a great season and played to a level that makes the Giants seriously consider re-signing him. I think the worst case scenario going into the off season would have been him playing like last year. He was playing very well, but nowhere near what could be considered elite. That would have left them with a much tougher decision. On the other hand, if he just stunk up the joint, it would probably mean the Giants still sucked, but at least it would also cement the decision not to sign him. With his play, it probably cements the decision to try to re-sign him.
Matt - with all do respect, I don't follow this logic. LW was specifically targeted and trade for by a losing team in the middle of the 2019 season. He was already exactly what they were looking for otherwise they shouldn't have done the deal. And I would think they saw more in him than he showed for the Jets otherwise why not see who else becomes available during free agency.
With that, they would have been far better off coming to an agreement (or had one in hand). Now I realize it takes two parties to agree to get it done, by how was the dynamic ever going to change and why would LW's price tag ever go down? Right now, it's Christmas time for Team LW under the cap and our guys made it happen.
What is not to understand? Yes, they targeted him because they saw something. So what? That doesn't guarantee delivery. They felt their best shot was to secure his rights. I disagree, but that is irrelevant. Williams was looking for a huge contract. Maybe they miscalculated his perceived worth. Maybe they expected a little more from him last year. Maybe they got gun shy. I don't know. But, they agreed to the tag, which played out exactly as both sides should hope. That is why we have this discussion. He elevated his game, so he put up. Now, it is their turn or they lose him.
We tried to sign him last year. Spilled milk. We don't beat Seattle without him. I can't imagine him not on the team next year. I would hate it. We should have met his demands this year. Whaddya gunna do?
What you should do is sign him to a new deal that has no more than 40M guaranteed dollars, and give you near penalty-free flexibility over the 3rd and 4th year.
You just described many reasons as to why this was
We tried to sign him last year. Spilled milk. We don't beat Seattle without him. I can't imagine him not on the team next year. I would hate it. We should have met his demands this year. Whaddya gunna do?
What you should do is sign him to a new deal that has no more than 40M guaranteed dollars, and give you near penalty-free flexibility over the 3rd and 4th year.
Yeah. I think 4 years, $76M and $40M guaranteed is what I typed a few weeks ago as "reasonable" now.
Team LW may want to go above $80M and a higher guarantee at this point as he knows they know he is killing it on the field.
Got to be able to keep it within reason in order to still invest in the overall roster.
The other stuff that factors in that we are not privy to
is being brought up in the last several posts. How, if at all, does re-signing or not impact the rest of their FA approach? Does re-signing him mean they can only re-sign one of Tomlinson or Ryan? (I would choose Ryan)? Does it mean they re-sign neither? I don't know enough about the cap impact and what they are looking for or what the Giants thoughts are, so I am not speculating. But, I bring it up because these are the types of considerations that cause some people to pause at $18-20M. It could very well have an impact on other moves, especially with Solder's contract back on the books.
I am not saying definitively not to sign him. I am saying I have reservations doing so at that level based off a single season. I do admit that last Sunday goes a long way toward convincing anyone to pony up the money. His season overall has been great. But a performance like that against that opponent with what is at stake in December says something. If he can maintain this play through the next 4 weeks and have a big playoff game, I admit it is basically impossible not to pay him. But, that still doesn't guarantee that this year isn't the fluke.
Again, to be clear, because a lot of posts have been misrepresented by the opposing view, that doesn't mean he sucks or I think he will suck. It means he was nice player before who has elevated his game. There are many possible explanations as to why. Some, all, or none may be right. I think to bw's point, at this stage in his career it is hard to say you are confident you will get a repeat of 2020 once, let alone 2-3 times. If you don't, he is still a good player. He just isn't a $20M player outside of 2020.
FA in general is a risk. Nobody can be certain what the next season will bring, when a player starts to slow down, injury, etc. But, some players have 2 or more seasons to look at with past production to reasonably expect it. Williams doesn't have that. It doesn't discount this season. It merely allows for the question to be asked.
I don't, at any point, expect him to suck. No matter what, I expect a good player, because he has been that. The only question is will he continue beyond 2020 to be a great player. How does anyone not see that as a fair question?
Matt - as you state this has nothing to do with not wanting LW
He is good player having a great year. This also has nothing to do with giving up picks for good players, unless they are wasted because you didn't think thru the process well well and/or couldn't close the deal.
Hell, maybe the Giants win it all this season and we can tell him to just test free agency!
That seems "fair" but fair value is an elusive concept. I think there is a lot of good thought on this thread.
The challenge with LW is I don't think he wanted fair value last offseason and I don't necessarily think he will want fair value this offseason. Makes me think more, can you build a winner if you are overpaying for a player non QB player? (Think there is plenty of precedent where paying a franchise QB like that you can win a SB so I won't delve into that)
Not calling this a statistically comprehensive analysis by any means but what jumps up at me immediately is for the Eagles and Pats at the top of the food chain you've got Foles at 7.65% of the cap and Brady at 8.36% of the cap. The next down for those teams are our buddy Solder at 6.66% and Cox at 6.39%.
The Chiefs had Sammy Watkins at 10.11% of the cap and then all the way down to Laurent Duvernay-Tardif at 4.35% of the cap. Looking at that I would not be surprised to hear they were doing aggressive accounting practices with NLTBE's to pay out all the big deals this year. That being said, it is well documented that having a star QB like Mahomes on a rookie deal gets you a lot of flexibility. And you have Tyreek Hill at 1.16% of the cap as well. Totaling 11.27% of the cap for the top 2 receivers.
Now let's look at the Giants, who have their top 2 receivers at 9.55% of the cap this year. LW is taking up 8.17% or just a tick less than Brady. No doubt keeping him will count more. He is definitely going to increase that number this year, which to me, especially in a potentially sinking cap begs the question, can you win with him at a higher % and Jones not on a rookie deal? I'm not sure that makes sense to me, especially if you are paying Saquon too at a position not traditionally allocated to.
This rudimentary analysis would also kind of point to paying DT and LW perhaps as too much of an overallocation especially beyond a Jones rookie deal. (The Chiefs are paying both Hill and Watkins this year but Mahomes has a $5M cap hit which is even lower than most QB rookie deals of QBs that are impact starters)
I think especially because this roster doesn't have a lot of current star power, I'm certainly not saying you let LW walk. I'm just not sure our assets are lining up correctly for a championship squad given this roster. Would love to see counter examples further back if people have them. I'd also argue that with each passing year winning is more about allocating well and building a system around that allocation where you can let players that want to be overpaid walk than ever before. The exception being finding a player like Brady who will sign under market to give you a competitive advantage.
Regardless, you take a player like Bradberry, who is just as good at his position as LW and is just looking for a "fair" deal every time. I'm worried LW and the way we set up the leverage may have been doomed from the start, as dominant as he's looking this year inclusive of that. As it is with most high value assets, and athletes might be some of the highest value assets in the world on a unit basis, it's more about price, leverage, if you are able to project them forward better than your competition in some explainable way, etc.
A lot of really good points. The posts above mine are excellent. I "think" LW will perform after he gets his money. I believe he is a high character guy and this coaching staff found a way to use him.
That seems "fair" but fair value is an elusive concept. I think there is a lot of good thought on this thread.
The challenge with LW is I don't think he wanted fair value last offseason and I don't necessarily think he will want fair value this offseason. Makes me think more, can you build a winner if you are overpaying for a player non QB player? (Think there is plenty of precedent where paying a franchise QB like that you can win a SB so I won't delve into that)
You sure about that? Pretty sure it's Colin Cowherd, but not sure, loves to hammer home is that a QB has never won a SB making more than 15 percent of the cap. Now Brady obviously skews those numbers, but I don't think there is any evidence that teams can win a SB with their QB making a large percentage of the cap. Personally, for these type of arguments, I like to choose making a SB. The sample size of teams that win SB is just too small and things are always evolving in NFL so you can never go too far back.
Aaron Rodgers was on a big deal when he won I think. 15% is kind of an arbitrary cutoff too... Brady was making 12.2% of the cap when they won in 2019.
Don't have time to dig more but honestly it's more about can you overpay for a position player and not have a QB on a rookie deal and win to me.
I'd still do one more FT maneuver, but this seems reasonable if you want something longer term.
I just can't see Team LW taking this. They are going big game hunting...
The reality is big game hunting at DT above that band gets you to the Fletcher Cox, Aaron Donald area. I can see him getting a few more bucks guaranteed in years 3 & 4, and maybe some make believe dollars at the end.
I don't see the Giants applying the 2nd consecutive tender (19M, 125% of his salary this year), in a year with a cap reduction. It's a huge part of a smaller pie.
He's the second best player on our defense and we have the cap room
Because people here treat the cap and contracts with the intensity of a nuclear warhead.
You are in this business to keep guys like Williams. Again, I remind you all to go back to the Giants teams of the 2000s that were winning more often than not. Those teams were packed to the gills with over stuffed contracts and highly paid players. They still managed things year after year. All we do is worry about money around here. First time in years this team has a defense and some of you can't let these players walk fast enough.
Williams is going to get paid a mint from the Giants. Just friggin deal with it.
He's the second best player on our defense and we have the cap room
Because people here treat the cap and contracts with the intensity of a nuclear warhead.
You are in this business to keep guys like Williams. Again, I remind you all to go back to the Giants teams of the 2000s that were winning more often than not. Those teams were packed to the gills with over stuffed contracts and highly paid players. They still managed things year after year. All we do is worry about money around here. First time in years this team has a defense and some of you can't let these players walk fast enough.
Williams is going to get paid a mint from the Giants. Just friggin deal with it.
And because we made the “egregious” mistake of trading for him, we now have the option of franchising him again, IF NECESSARY..That’s why DG went after him at his age of 25 with solid years ahead of him: To either workout a long term contract and if necessary FT him until and when something is worked out. I was elated with the move when it happened, was not all that concerned with losing a 3rd and am even more elated now.
We need to get rid of all our good players because we will have to
There is only one tackle in top 30 of real guaranteed dollars in the NFL -- Aaron Donald.
When you shake off the window dressing of numbers, Williams will probably get ~40-45M real guaranteed dollars, which after next offseason might get him into the top 30.
He's not getting paid like a top 15 player, where the numbers really shoot up.
He's having a career year in a franchise tag year. Typically, that is a red flag. This is the same guy the Jets decided was expendable, who garnered 1 sack last season and was the anchor of defense that couldn't stop anything.
Now you pay through the nose for a long term deal structured for cap relief(and remember, they couldn't reach a deal after last season when he was pretty meh) or you eat up a ton of the cap on one more franchise tag at an average of the top 5 at his position and you still have to try and sign him to a long term deal. Would still have made more sense to pay him after his meh last season than now if they were that convicted about his prospects.
RE: We need to get rid of all our good players because we will have to
I know I've posted this before, but a team in the Giants situation isn't letting go good players because they just can't sign all of the good ones on their roster. They are doing so to redeploy the dollars and sign another vet FA from another team. The argument is that those signings are much more risky than just retaining someone who is playing well in your team concept. (In the case of the ER vs a DT argument, ERs are also more expensive.)
Summary: optimizing roster management by letting go your high-performing vets has less of a benefit/risk ratio than simply keeping your players.
A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.
Reading some of the posts on here, you would think the cap
doesn't apply to the NY Giants, at all. And that overpaying players, even the really good ones, doesn't affect any part of the rest of the roster in that year and future years.
And this from guys who have seemingly been Giant fans for years, and have lost their minds because of a 4-game winning streak.
Keep this in mind, Leonard Williams is not signed yet because Gettleman & Front Office doesn't subscribe to your thinking.
RE: RE: We need to get rid of all our good players because we will have to
or let them all walk. It is posed as a risk to overpay one player at the top of the league scale, when he has exactly one season that would qualify him for this level vs. perhaps using that money to re-sign 2 players, perhaps. This also doesn't mean the Giants shouldn't or won't pay him. It is worth exploring as a risk, however. The cap will impact moves, especially with another huge contract (Solder) coming back on the books.
RE: We need to get rid of all our good players because we will have to
He's having a career year in a franchise tag year. Typically, that is a red flag. This is the same guy the Jets decided was expendable, who garnered 1 sack last season and was the anchor of defense that couldn't stop anything.
Now you pay through the nose for a long term deal structured for cap relief(and remember, they couldn't reach a deal after last season when he was pretty meh) or you eat up a ton of the cap on one more franchise tag at an average of the top 5 at his position and you still have to try and sign him to a long term deal. Would still have made more sense to pay him after his meh last season than now if they were that convicted about his prospects.
Ah yes, the Jets decided he was expendable...
How’s that working out for them? Do you EVER think before posting your nonsense? The Jets? Why should we give a damn about their decision making?
It's funny that BigBlueShock accuses others of being arrogant
doesn't apply to the NY Giants, at all. And that overpaying players, even the really good ones, doesn't affect any part of the rest of the roster in that year and future years.
And this from guys who have seemingly been Giant fans for years, and have lost their minds because of a 4-game winning streak.
Keep this in mind, Leonard Williams is not signed yet because Gettleman & Front Office doesn't subscribe to your thinking.
Our defense just had its best performance in years and people are talking about letting the guy go, that glues the whole thing together, over for 1 or 2 million a year?
This isn't Madden. People are hilarious. You act like you are professional capologists. (I invent words.) You set up ab imaginary deal and put up a big red line in the proverbial sand and proclaim, a penny more and I let him walk. I am laughing at you.
We have been the worst team in football for 3 years and you guys want to run the players out of town that are bringing us back from the ledge because you have decided you are some kind of cap guru. I think some of you are so used to being miserable that it has become your comfortable.
We don't have to worry about this today.
Today it is December 9th.
We are playing meaningful games.
We appear to be ascending as a team.
Let's keep the team together, if only in our heads.
You are the same arrogant jackass that spent several months referring to posters as "Luddites" because they didn't buy your line of bullshit on analytics.
Oh, what a surprise? Repeating the same lines you always do?
Sorry not playing today. Luddite was too generous. You are just a POS.
Is there an off setting on your troll switch? Even the castrated version of you is very unpleasant. I guess that's the only way you've ever surprised me.
Is it because you are so arrogant that you think my main reason for posting is to go after you??
With each passing week where you try to work in posts about analytics, two things become increasingly obvious.
1) Your need to inject analytics into discussions - even where they don't apply is borderlining on an obsession
2) The take that the Giants have their heads up their asses regarding analytics is becoming more and more a figment of your imagination.
And if you think I'm neutered - you might want it to stay that way - I've talked to a few teams who have been approached by a jackass peddling Madden simulations as "analytics". And by George, you really don't want me to go there.
You came on this thread solely to take a potshot at me while I'm trying to have a perfectly respectful discussion with a number of people. I guess you felt justified because I called out another poster for coming onto what was a very nice a civil discussion for the sole purpose of calling another poster stupid.
Maybe think about how noble your crusade to protect the board and the Giants is when this is how you exist.
Is it because you are so arrogant that you think my main reason for posting is to go after you??
With each passing week where you try to work in posts about analytics, two things become increasingly obvious.
1) Your need to inject analytics into discussions - even where they don't apply is borderlining on an obsession
2) The take that the Giants have their heads up their asses regarding analytics is becoming more and more a figment of your imagination.
And if you think I'm neutered - you might want it to stay that way - I've talked to a few teams who have been approached by a jackass peddling Madden simulations as "analytics". And by George, you really don't want me to go there.
Excuse me? This sounds like a threat? You know what you are doing.
I have talked to teams but you know very little about me other than that and I'm not pedaling anything, not even close to my primary job. And I work with a lot of different industries about predicting stuff so yeah. Sorry one of my many forays into a non-core business of mine in predictive analytics is unimpressive to you.
You aren't as clever as you think. I'm not taking the bait revealing what you did, but it has nothing to do with Madden simulations, which couldn't be further from what I'm doing.
and he just keeps coming at me. And 1 in every 20 times I respond.
Talk to him. He's like many years my senior and he can keep taking shots at me and I'm expected to not respond when he can't even remotely control himself?
I've been on this thread to talk football, he came on just to insult me, do you not see the difference there?
RE: RE: RE: RE: We need to get rid of all our good players because we will have to
Our defense just had its best performance in years and people are talking about letting the guy go, that glues the whole thing together, over for 1 or 2 million a year?
This isn't Madden. People are hilarious. You act like you are professional capologists. (I invent words.) You set up ab imaginary deal and put up a big red line in the proverbial sand and proclaim, a penny more and I let him walk. I am laughing at you.
We have been the worst team in football for 3 years and you guys want to run the players out of town that are bringing us back from the ledge because you have decided you are some kind of cap guru. I think some of you are so used to being miserable that it has become your comfortable.
We don't have to worry about this today.
Today it is December 9th.
We are playing meaningful games.
We appear to be ascending as a team.
Let's keep the team together, if only in our heads.
Agreed this LW debate is actually a quantitative debate. Everyone would want him on the team for $7mm per, no one would want him for $30mm. So it’s really a question of what your walk away number is. Mine is 20, although I suspect LW won’t get that due to the cap declining in 2021.
about the enlightened self interest of the parties involved.
Not so much what amount but when to make the deal and how to structure it
The way to lower risk and increase whatever leverage they may possibly have for the NYG is to sign as late as possible but before FA and the draft so they have replacement optionality
Since they have to deliver guaranteed dollars in any circumstances, another transition tag in return for another year into the prime of a guy who maybe overpricing himself maybe a undesirable but acceptable tradeoff allowing two restocking seasons to keep a dominant DL.
When the event takes place for LW and for the NYG is not something we discuss that often. And for all we know, the negotiations might be very healthy. Starting last year they may have said: " We want to pay you like an elite DL but we need to see it first. Lets give you a shot to show us (and the NFL)"
Or they could be stubborn, factless, petty and difficult conversation such that we like the player but not the agent/family dynamics that come with it.
Beats me. Notice both sides have been good at keeping relatively silent in the media. So far. Unusually so. imo.
The Giants have never shown themselves incapable of retaining top talent due to financials. It seems like it's more of a LW thing than a Giants thing imo.
One more tag year may be the optimal thing indeed, especially if he's asking ridiculous money.
Plenty of factors point to both sides benefiting from a long term deal:
1) 2021 is NFL year 7 for Williams, how many defensive lineman entering year 8 hit top of market long term dollars?
2) The 1.25x accelerator gets his tender to 19M. This is fruit of calculations and agreements assuming a rising cap. 19M against a 175M cap isn’t part of the projection.
3) Top tackles not named Donald get 40M guaranteed at signing in exchange for little to no money guaranteed after 2 years. Years 3&4 are fixed price future options. Why would the Giants pay 19M for 1, when 40M gets you 2 and your choice of 3 & 4?
Then get some edge rushers -- he'll be even better.
This begins the Hog Mollie Era. Submit, or be slaughtered
It was a shot and DG hit on it.
Love it!!!
Winning solves a lot of problems. I hope he has a long and productive future as a Giant! He certainly looks like he is having fun. So are WE!
Winning solves a lot of problems. I hope he has a long and productive future as a Giant! He certainly looks like he is having fun. So are WE!
No offense, but dumb comment. Effort was always there and he plays 2 ways. Fucking starting to kick some ass.
This was always my problem with the complaining. It was a 3rd round pick and seriously, people reacted like we gave up a first rounder for the guy.
What other FA do they have to sign who contributes as much?
Give him the money...he is Richard Seymour with quickness and pass rush moves.
Exactly. Williams may be going way past his average for sacks per year, but he's never been as 'bad' at getting the QB as most would have you think before now.
Is he playing better in this system? Absolutely.
However, it's not night/day. He's always been high value, now it's just truly top 5 high value. He's playing like peak JPP right now.
Him and Lawrence together are utterly disruptive.
Gary come on. People blast the GM all over the planet when things go wrong, when the players you acquire help you win football games it was the right move.
Refreshing.
Pay him
Pay him
What/who did they think there core was going to be?
What/who did they think there core was going to be?
sorry - "Their core". not "there core"
So I'm still reluctant paying a guy LW top market dollar -in his contract year - when I see what Graham is producing with this entire defense at every level.
I’m 100% with you. Totally agree and we’re all going to be pissed in the spring when we don’t have that 5th round pick. What a waste.
Terrible take. Absolutely horrendous.
His numbers were off and he was expecting a contract. The effort and availability were there, so our GM traded a 3rd for him and because of that we were afforded the right to franchise him this year to see if he figured it out unstead of waiting till FA to throw a huge contract at a guy who hasnt produced.
Give it up.
Having elite edge rushers isn't even close to necessary anymore. These QBs are too mobile. It's realy simple, get decent rush across the line and mush rush the QB, especially these shorter mobile guys If you get really good interior pressure its a big plus and stay disciplined on the line. This was a fucking marvel to watch today. Cover the back end, And these guys are so fucking disciplined, its a wonder to see. We'll see the same exact game plan next week.
Great reference.
So I'm still reluctant paying a guy LW top market dollar -in his contract year - when I see what Graham is producing with this entire defense at every level.
That’s the same with every player and position. On his own, anyone sucks. Ut give him ten other guys and....
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...doesn't mean it was a good decision. I realize that some people have a problem with this concept.
I’m 100% with you. Totally agree and we’re all going to be pissed in the spring when we don’t have that 5th round pick. What a waste.
😂🤣
Ugggggghhhhhh....unbearable
Having elite edge rushers isn't even close to necessary anymore. These QBs are too mobile. It's realy simple, get decent rush across the line and mush rush the QB, especially these shorter mobile guys If you get really good interior pressure its a big plus and stay disciplined on the line. This was a fucking marvel to watch today. Cover the back end, And these guys are so fucking disciplined, its a wonder to see. We'll see the same exact game plan next week.
We don't agree on a lot, but I am with you on this. PRBC works if you have the back-end talent to cover. And right now we do...This is precisely how Belichick has coached New England the last decade.
Find under-valued assets like Van Noy and Ninkovitch, have tough LBs, and have good cover guys.
The problem is that we could have simply signed him as a FA. 2019 Jets FA Leonard Williams wildest dreams contract would have been far far less than what we will need to pay him now. Why on earth people would rather pay Williams anything he wants now versus paying him a mediocre contract and using the savings for another player is beyond me.
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But maybe THIS coach, and the TEAM he is creating can change an individual's mental state and bring out the best.
Winning solves a lot of problems. I hope he has a long and productive future as a Giant! He certainly looks like he is having fun. So are WE!
No offense, but dumb comment. Effort was always there and he plays 2 ways. Fucking starting to kick some ass.
No offense taken, but my comment was referring more as to when he was a Jet, where is effort was sometimes questioned.
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but he needs a nice holiday bonus before any player.
Ugggggghhhhhh....unbearable
Careful, you’ll get suspended again
So I'm still reluctant paying a guy LW top market dollar -in his contract year - when I see what Graham is producing with this entire defense at every level.
Dude, Im convinced youre either just fucking nuts or truly a Skins fan.
Literally every time Wilson dropped back LW was caving in his side of the line and whenever they ran the ball, he was doing the same thing as well as sealing off his edge.
LW is Richard Seymour+ at this point. 26 and destroying schemes.
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In comment 15069200 LBH15 said:
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but he needs a nice holiday bonus before any player.
Ugggggghhhhhh....unbearable
Careful, you’ll get suspended again
I got suspended...took my time off and am back. You got banned and came back under a different name Googs.
Loser personified.
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In comment 15068914 PA Aggie said:
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But maybe THIS coach, and the TEAM he is creating can change an individual's mental state and bring out the best.
Winning solves a lot of problems. I hope he has a long and productive future as a Giant! He certainly looks like he is having fun. So are WE!
No offense, but dumb comment. Effort was always there and he plays 2 ways. Fucking starting to kick some ass.
No offense taken, but my comment was referring more as to when he was a Jet, where is effort was sometimes questioned.
Never heard that about him as a Jet. He was also on a swamped DLine with Wilkerson, Richardson all of which played the same position for the most part.
At least until the next siuspension.
Dude, Im convinced youre either just fucking nuts or truly a Skins fan.
Literally every time Wilson dropped back LW was caving in his side of the line and whenever they ran the ball, he was doing the same thing as well as sealing off his edge.
LW is Richard Seymour+ at this point. 26 and destroying schemes.
Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
2) I still do not believe he is worth $18-20M, like he is looking for. But, this was the type of game the Jets were looking for. And the type of game, against this competition and this time of year with what's at stake, that would make a contract with him more palatable.
3) There is no denying, this could be his signature game as a player. He has arrived and I admit, it will be hard to ignore him or let him walk after a game like this with the rest of the season he's had.
okay so then if he made what group think says was a good decision but it had a negative outcome... would you still say it was a good decision? Something tells me that this is a heads I win, tails you lose thing Gary.
What I really think is going on here is someone is not admitting he was wrong about something.
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circa our super bowl runs.
Having elite edge rushers isn't even close to necessary anymore. These QBs are too mobile. It's realy simple, get decent rush across the line and mush rush the QB, especially these shorter mobile guys If you get really good interior pressure its a big plus and stay disciplined on the line. This was a fucking marvel to watch today. Cover the back end, And these guys are so fucking disciplined, its a wonder to see. We'll see the same exact game plan next week.
We don't agree on a lot, but I am with you on this. PRBC works if you have the back-end talent to cover. And right now we do...This is precisely how Belichick has coached New England the last decade.
Find under-valued assets like Van Noy and Ninkovitch, have tough LBs, and have good cover guys.
Did you lose faith we were going to win? I certainly did, or at least was 50/50. Man it's scary as shit to watch, but we stayed super disciplined and they just didn't make the plays with their WRs and QB. Wild to think. The QB isn't as good next week, but the WRs are much better. I know I'll get roasted for it, but these guys coming up don't drop the ball like the Seahawks do. Our defensive talent is legit though. God damn what a game. Was really impressed how much we ran the ball today and beat them up front offensively. Should be better this week even. Expect a little higher scoring game on both ends against Cards. Big dick Judge laying pipe on the NFL. This is just fucking awesome to watch. I'm really thinking we may have the best coach in NFL. Looooooove it.
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...doesn't mean it was a good decision. I realize that some people have a problem with this concept.
okay so then if he made what group think says was a good decision but it had a negative outcome... would you still say it was a good decision? Something tells me that this is a heads I win, tails you lose thing Gary.
What I really think is going on here is someone is not admitting he was wrong about something.
It's possible that the trade was not smart, given where our team was last year, where the Jets were, the season Williams was having for them, and the prospects of him leaving via FA. His price tag, if left on the Jets, would have been much lower, as it would have been perceived as more of a flyer.
I love the way he is playing this year. We have seen this kind of play from MAYBE once before in 2016 (I think). This game probably ensured he will get a big payday. Is he worth $18M+? I'm still not convinced. BUT...but, I wouldn't feel terrible giving it to him if that's what they think it takes. This game elevated his status, in my opinion given the time of year, the opponent, and what is at stake. I really want to keep both him and Tomlinson. Perhaps with the OL play, it is more possible, as they likely don't need a high priced OL via FA.
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In comment 15069202 Zeke's Alibi said:
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circa our super bowl runs.
Having elite edge rushers isn't even close to necessary anymore. These QBs are too mobile. It's realy simple, get decent rush across the line and mush rush the QB, especially these shorter mobile guys If you get really good interior pressure its a big plus and stay disciplined on the line. This was a fucking marvel to watch today. Cover the back end, And these guys are so fucking disciplined, its a wonder to see. We'll see the same exact game plan next week.
We don't agree on a lot, but I am with you on this. PRBC works if you have the back-end talent to cover. And right now we do...This is precisely how Belichick has coached New England the last decade.
Find under-valued assets like Van Noy and Ninkovitch, have tough LBs, and have good cover guys.
Did you lose faith we were going to win? I certainly did, or at least was 50/50. Man it's scary as shit to watch, but we stayed super disciplined and they just didn't make the plays with their WRs and QB. Wild to think. The QB isn't as good next week, but the WRs are much better. I know I'll get roasted for it, but these guys coming up don't drop the ball like the Seahawks do. Our defensive talent is legit though. God damn what a game. Was really impressed how much we ran the ball today and beat them up front offensively. Should be better this week even. Expect a little higher scoring game on both ends against Cards. Big dick Judge laying pipe on the NFL. This is just fucking awesome to watch. I'm really thinking we may have the best coach in NFL. Looooooove it.
The defense was playing so good that I still felt that they were going to hold up in the end. Definitely a mindset change but for me but they are just being coached so well and playing with discipline that I felt they could make the plays.
This is definitely the new excuse for miserable posters who somehow don’t like it when DG and the NYG are doing good things.
This is definitely the new excuse for miserable posters who somehow don’t like it when DG and the NYG are doing good things.
Its perfect. Now any decision that you don't like, which turns out to be correct and makes you wrong, can be easily talked away.
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Dude, Im convinced youre either just fucking nuts or truly a Skins fan.
Literally every time Wilson dropped back LW was caving in his side of the line and whenever they ran the ball, he was doing the same thing as well as sealing off his edge.
LW is Richard Seymour+ at this point. 26 and destroying schemes.
Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
Such a dumb take. So is Aaron Donald not worth it because Jalen Ramsey is playing corner?
It’s a team game. No single player is going to dominate without the other pieces working.
Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
Such a dumb take. So is Aaron Donald not worth it because Jalen Ramsey is playing corner?
It’s a team game. No single player is going to dominate without the other pieces working.
That's the comparison you want to make here? Aaron Donald? A guy currently putting together a resume as one of the greatest DTs of all time...?
I mean, I get your point to a degree but this is the wrong way to do it.
Look, I get it. LW is playing well, but I think a lot of this is a reflection of the back four and their stellar play...
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Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
Such a dumb take. So is Aaron Donald not worth it because Jalen Ramsey is playing corner?
It’s a team game. No single player is going to dominate without the other pieces working.
That's the comparison you want to make here? Aaron Donald? A guy currently putting together a resume as one of the greatest DTs of all time...?
I mean, I get your point to a degree but this is the wrong way to do it.
Look, I get it. LW is playing well, but I think a lot of this is a reflection of the back four and their stellar play...
LW was a good player last year with less talent around him and a shit coaching staff. What you’re seeing now is what his potential is with a little help.
He’s been saddled with trash around him his entire career until this year.
Thanks jets!
Did you lose faith we were going to win? I certainly did, or at least was 50/50. Man it's scary as shit to watch, but we stayed super disciplined and they just didn't make the plays with their WRs and QB. Wild to think. The QB isn't as good next week, but the WRs are much better. I know I'll get roasted for it, but these guys coming up don't drop the ball like the Seahawks do. Our defensive talent is legit though. God damn what a game. Was really impressed how much we ran the ball today and beat them up front offensively. Should be better this week even. Expect a little higher scoring game on both ends against Cards. Big dick Judge laying pipe on the NFL. This is just fucking awesome to watch. I'm really thinking we may have the best coach in NFL. Looooooove it.
Once Wilson crossed midfield with 2 TO, first down, and a 1:13 , I thought it was going to be a classic Russell Wilson rabbit-out-of-hat scenario. That's what he does. I've seen it too many times and figured we were about to get another dose...
Thankfully the "12th Man" wasn't there today and thank the Football Gods for letting the better team win today.
I was just waiting for some bullsh-t flag on that 4th down to bail out Wilson, too, btw...
Anyway, LW was a fucking beast today and I loved watching the game!
Anyway, LW was a fucking beast today and I loved watching the game!
Dumb. One of the worst you can remember? GTFOH. Such a dumb hot take.
For the crowd that thinks we could have signed him as a FA, I don't think that was a slam dunk or likely at all. We've been a losing organization, just jettisoned basically the whole roster in 2 years, starting with our 4th coach in 6 years, and playing in a city that has skewered him for not getting enough sacks. I don't think we we would've an attractive option for him.
I just think they could have had him cheaper than what he is seeking now. The Giants are basically stuck after this game. If he finished the season strong, they basically can't let him walk because he will be the first legitimate FA player they've had to retain in a long time, outside OBJ. On the other hand, cap-wise they may regret it in a year or two when they have no room to maneuver.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Since you asked... yes, it is. Jonathan Hankins got $10 million per three years ago, and he was a third round pick who couldn't get any pass rush at all (with Snacks playing at a pro bowl level next to him).
The notion that the Giants would have automatically been able to sign Williams and do so cheaply is severely misguided. Someone would have seen the value and paid him decently. The people who make these decisions do it professionally, they don't just check in once a week to offer a quick opinion...
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(...) what do you think he would have gotten on the FA market? Is 3 years, $30M way off (...)
Since you asked... yes, it is. Jonathan Hankins got $10 million per three years ago, and he was a third round pick who couldn't get any pass rush at all (with Snacks playing at a pro bowl level next to him).
The notion that the Giants would have automatically been able to sign Williams and do so cheaply is severely misguided. Someone would have seen the value and paid him decently. The people who make these decisions do it professionally, they don't just check in once a week to offer a quick opinion...
Also, Hankins became a FA after having 3 sacks and 33 tackles. He also had a career high 7 sacks just 2 seasons before that. At that point in his career, he was not that different than Williams, production wise.
Also, I recall just this past offseason someone still saying the Eli trade was bad..after two Superbowl MVPs against the greatest dynasty this league has ever seen. No trade is bad if it directly results in two Super Bowl wins.
Mr. Leonard - 6'5, 4.97 40m dash
Hankins - 6'3, 5.31 40m dash
There's a reason Williams was considered the second best player in the draft when he came out. And he was all of 25 during free agency.
He might win Defensive Player of the Week after today
His play has not changed at all, he is just getting sack numbers. He has always been a guy who gets pressure and can play the run
Watch the game and see who get the double team - he does, teams don’t run at him, he makes others better.
He is 26, excellent player, well liked and plays every game. You sign him for 4 years and you get 27-30. He is the type of player you invest in
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(...) Hankins (...) At that point in his career, he was not that different than Williams (...)
Mr. Leonard - 6'5, 4.97 40m dash
Hankins - 6'3, 5.31 40m dash
There's a reason Williams was considered the second best player in the draft when he came out. And he was all of 25 during free agency.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
It kills me that people think he had some sort of epiphany rather than understand he's playing within a great D now.
Leonard Williams was an outstanding player for the Jets, he was an outstanding player last year and he is again, this year.
His play has not changed at all, he is just getting sack numbers. He has always been a guy who gets pressure and can play the run
Watch the game and see who get the double team - he does, teams don’t run at him, he makes others better.
He is 26, excellent player, well liked and plays every game. You sign him for 4 years and you get 27-30. He is the type of player you invest in
+1.
When something works, we are so quick to move on because of $$$. Keep this thing going - we are entering a window.
It kills me that people think he had some sort of epiphany rather than understand he's playing within a great D now.
Leonard Williams was an outstanding player for the Jets, he was an outstanding player last year and he is again, this year.
LW was "outstanding" for the Jets? That's quite a loose definition of outstanding...
If the Jets are so poorly coached team - which is probably true - why is Quinnen Williams killing it for the Jets this year? And without LW as his partner...
I am just happy we found Williams.
He's been very durable, hardly ever misses a game.
What are the terms of a new deal? How does it work with our current salary cap.
In the end, the trade was a good one........whatever way it goes. The comp pick will be significant at this point, right?
I think that I don't see talked about enough in this whole LW thing is if the team was SO sure about him, why didn't he get locked up prior to this season? It seems like the team was as skeptical of him as a player as some posters were so to bring out the "I told you so's" when the same team that gave up two draft picks didn't get a long term commitment from him, they didn't exactly look prepared on it at all. And I think that's what people's problem is. Rarely do you see a player get traded and not sign a long term deal after picks are surrendered.
That's what some people seem to fail to realize in this. The story and timer on if this was a good deal starts when we ink him to the long term deal. Giving up picks to trade for a player never should or is about one year on a franchise tender. The concern is that the Giants didn't seem to have a plan with the player that reflected his perspective demands when they traded for him. His demands could very well again be beyond what his production dictated (as they were last year) and some players are just like that.
Once he is signed to a long term deal and we think we are at least getting fair value based on his production I am 100% willing to say the trade looks smarter than originally critiqued. And I think people are confused because of how weird it is to give up picks with a 1-7 team for a player in a contract year the burden of proof was high to show it was a smart move. Just because people saw a difficult contract situation and a player not performing up to the money they wanted meant that can say it was definitively a bad trade doesn't mean he can have a good season and it means it's automatically a good trade. Draft picks are valuable on a 3-4 year salary horizon and if he ends up an overpaid player on a team that is mediocre or bad, this great season he's having doesn't mean that much. Great players can still be bad value, I don't think some people really reflect they understand that concept.
I'd still let Team LW walk and say thanks for a great year. Just don't feel comfortable with paying for what looks like - finally - a real breakthrough year. If we decide to keep him, I'd FT one more time...
I think I have whiplash from the abrupt shift in opinion from the "leonard williams is overpaid" crew. Just a few weeks ago he wasn't worth the $16m tag now the NYG made a mistake by not paying him more?
Should they have paid him whatever he wanted and ignored their option to simply tag him and pay $16m this year?
Should they ignore that option again next year if LW says he wants Aaron Donald money?
The Giants played it like this with the FT because they were skeptical too and there is no other way to slice it. Which leads to the other relevant point of what were they expecting when they traded for him? What was their plan?
He was traded for during a losing season; he seemingly played well last season; the team didn't pursue a DT in free agency or draft; and he was tagged (not transitional but franchise) allowing for additional months to sort out a contract, and most importantly he fits the vision of what this GM is trying to build here.
What is the issue because his price tag isn't going down?
I think I have whiplash from the abrupt shift in opinion from the "leonard williams is overpaid" crew. Just a few weeks ago he wasn't worth the $16m tag now the NYG made a mistake by not paying him more?
Should they have paid him whatever he wanted and ignored their option to simply tag him and pay $16m this year?
Should they ignore that option again next year if LW says he wants Aaron Donald money?
It's not hypocrisy nor a change in opinion to question why he isn't signed to an extended contract. It is part and parcel to spending value to pursuing him on a losing team and then not completing the deal. This is the GM's vision and presumably plan...go execute it as the price is only going up, right?
The Giants played it like this with the FT because they were skeptical too and there is no other way to slice it. Which leads to the other relevant point of what were they expecting when they traded for him? What was their plan?
My god is this a horrendous take. I don't know if it's intellectual dishonesty or gettleman dysmorphia but this has got to be the stupidest take du jour.
To answer your question about what their plan was - it seems simple to me because they commented publicly at each step in the process. They acquired a player they believed in, attempted to sign him to a long term contract, and in absence of an agreement with the player fell back on the option pay him as a top 5 player at his position.
They will likely negotiate with him again this offseason, and tag him again if they can't come to an agreement.
Unless you think the better negotiating style is giving players whatever they ask for?
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I'm actually pointing out the hypocrisy in people saying "See DG was smart he knew he was going to be this player!" if he did actually know that he would have signed him long term is my point.
The Giants played it like this with the FT because they were skeptical too and there is no other way to slice it. Which leads to the other relevant point of what were they expecting when they traded for him? What was their plan?
My god is this a horrendous take. I don't know if it's intellectual dishonesty or gettleman dysmorphia but this has got to be the stupidest take du jour.
To answer your question about what their plan was - it seems simple to me because they commented publicly at each step in the process. They acquired a player they believed in, attempted to sign him to a long term contract, and in absence of an agreement with the player fell back on the option pay him as a top 5 player at his position.
They will likely negotiate with him again this offseason, and tag him again if they can't come to an agreement.
Unless you think the better negotiating style is giving players whatever they ask for?
Keep up the good fight, Eric. Holy smokes these are some bad takes. Some are just never going to admit the Giants had a plan with LW and they are still trying to execute such plan. Doesn’t fit their narrative.
I am saying that there is a reason many teams trade picks and ensure they can agree on a long term deal as the trade is being made, to avoid situations like the one we are in now.
It isn't really a good strategy to trade for a player and franchise them two years in a row, players want long term deals and you strain the relationship with them.
I don't know what is so "horrendous" about the take of it is good to sign a player long term when you trade draft picks for them and do your diligence on what that will take before the deal is completed.
I'd still let Team LW walk and say thanks for a great year. Just don't feel comfortable with paying for what looks like - finally - a real breakthrough year. If we decide to keep him, I'd FT one more time...
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Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
As for Williams, the only thing I can say in terms of expectations moving forward is he isn't the typical FA coming out of nowhere in a contract year. He has had some success before, even if moderate. But, more importantly, all year long he is double and even triple teamed. So, it's not like a typical DL that has a big year in large part because he is defended 1 on 1 or benefits from another great DL alongside him and then when he gets the payday and the attention of OLs he disappears. That isn't an issue here. But, I still can't be certain he will maintain a level of production even close to this.
I am just happy we found Williams.
I am saying that there is a reason many teams trade picks and ensure they can agree on a long term deal as the trade is being made, to avoid situations like the one we are in now.
It isn't really a good strategy to trade for a player and franchise them two years in a row, players want long term deals and you strain the relationship with them.
I don't know what is so "horrendous" about the take of it is good to sign a player long term when you trade draft picks for them and do your diligence on what that will take before the deal is completed.
The bad take was saying it was a mistake that they didn't extend him when they clearly wanted and tried to do. They can't make the player say yes.
The horrendous take is saying that despite all evidence to the contrary, they didn't believe in the player because they couldn't agree to a contract.
Ideally he would have resigned reasonably. Nobody would disagree with that opinion. Ideally they wouldn't have had to trade for him. Nobody would disagree with that one either. But we live in the world we have not always the world we want. If they didn't trade for him someone else was going to. And if Leonard Williams wanted to hold out to be paid more than was offered he had that right.
By trading for him the NYG got his rights and correctly exercised the tag - especially given the fact that they had a new coaching staff implementing a new scheme. There was zero downside in paying the player LESS than he wanted and should they choose to they can do it again next year.
The Giants invested draft capital in Williams, and I'm sure before they did that they had a discussion about an extension.
Williams didn't feel like half a season on another shitty team was a good representation of his value, so the Giants franchised him and he essentially has a one year "prove your worth it" year.
Now, Williams has proved it and he and the Giants return to the table. But the Giants are not without options. They still have the threat of tagging him again, which starts the process over, and it's not without risk to Williams. He could get injured. Or, he could lose leverage with a sub par to this year performance. There are a lot of unknowns if the Giants tag him again.
So what will likely happen is that both sides will return to the table again and a deal will get done that benefits both sides, that started in good faith last year.
For us, he played well and was better than the rest of our DL. But, what was that really saying last year? He had no sacks and not a lot of tackles. Yes, I know he got some pressures and just misses. That isn't a $20M player.
Even with 2016 in mind, this is the first season Williams can be called outstanding and/or having lived up to his draft day expectations.
The Giants invested draft capital in Williams, and I'm sure before they did that they had a discussion about an extension.
Williams didn't feel like half a season on another shitty team was a good representation of his value, so the Giants franchised him and he essentially has a one year "prove your worth it" year.
Now, Williams has proved it and he and the Giants return to the table. But the Giants are not without options. They still have the threat of tagging him again, which starts the process over, and it's not without risk to Williams. He could get injured. Or, he could lose leverage with a sub par to this year performance. There are a lot of unknowns if the Giants tag him again.
So what will likely happen is that both sides will return to the table again and a deal will get done that benefits both sides, that started in good faith last year.
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it's a good thing that DG and the Giants saw this talent and potential in Williams while others did not. We got him while others were sleeping. Worrying about the contract at this point seems ridiculous to me. He's going to get paid and he's worth every penny.
I am just happy we found Williams.
I just don't see how you can say he is worth every penny. He wants Donald money, but isn't Donald. And he has not consistent track record of this play to be able to expect it. Even looking just at this season, I can't see committing $20M per for 5 years. That could be a debilitating contract moving forward.
a) Donald makes 22.5m per year
b) he has never said he wants Donald money (Ralph V. reported him wanting 18-20m when they were negotiating)
I do think after this year he is going to be looking at close to Jones/Buckner money, and he probably has a very good case to get it. But even those deals are a little deceiving relative to Donald - the amount of guaranteed money he received was about $30m higher than both. Christian did a good breakdown of the Buckner contract on one of the other recent LW threads.
I don't really expect him to be reasonable but to me Judge this coaching staff is the X-factor. When people talked about LW liking NY and signing for a discount I was very skeptical but I could see people wanting to play for this coaching staff and taking a discount for sure. You can't exactly give DG credit for this though as when he made the trade people pretty much universally were panning our DC and HC. That is actually another issue I had with the trade, sending a player into a lame duck coaching situation isn't exactly the best way to create a fond image of the team.
I'd be fine with him at $18M and not at $20M it's really as simple as that. Some people might say you don't want to lose one of your best players over $2M but building a team is more than saying is this player good or bad.
1) He remained with the Jets
2) He maintained the same level of play with them (not even elevating to what we got)
What do you think he would have brought in via FA last off season? I honestly think we did him a favor. There is no way he was getting near the tag value based on prior production. We gave him a change of scenery to up his value some. But, without that, is he much more than a $30-40M/3 years guy?
In that case, the Giants are seeing his price tag go up this year based on his performance.
On the other hand, one must consider that LW will decide that the largest contract is NOT what he cares about the most. After ending up on the Jets, he may know full well that he doesn't want to play for a loser organization no matter what. He just might decide he wants to play for an organization that he believes will give him a chance to win, as long as the offer makes him wealthy.
Having said that, perhaps the Giants recent play is working in their favor in terms of reaching a long-term agreement with LW. He seems quite happy with the organization. Check out these quotes from last night:
With him saying things like this, is it possible that he no longer will hold out for the highest dollar contract possible before signing a long-term deal? Could it be that he will sign a reasonable extension (obviously highly paid) rather than hitting free agency to max out his contract?
The Giants invested draft capital in Williams, and I'm sure before they did that they had a discussion about an extension.
Williams didn't feel like half a season on another shitty team was a good representation of his value, so the Giants franchised him and he essentially has a one year "prove your worth it" year.
Now, Williams has proved it and he and the Giants return to the table. But the Giants are not without options. They still have the threat of tagging him again, which starts the process over, and it's not without risk to Williams. He could get injured. Or, he could lose leverage with a sub par to this year performance. There are a lot of unknowns if the Giants tag him again.
So what will likely happen is that both sides will return to the table again and a deal will get done that benefits both sides, that started in good faith last year.
Agree Britt. I suspect he will get a deal very similar to the Jones/Buckner deals signed last year. Jones got 4x80m w/ 37m gtd at signing, Buckner got 4x84m w/ 39m gtd at signing.
I'd imagine last offseason the NYG offer was more in the 16/17m AAV (4x60m-70m) range and LW thought he may as well just play the year on the 16m tag and try to increase his value to the 18-20m range.
Fletcher Cox is maybe a better comp and his contract is $17mm AAPY. Cox has a $24mm hit in 2021 (my god, the Eagles are screwed - it's glorious).
On the other hand, it is a legitimate argument from him to say we both bet on me this year with the tag. I delivered, now you must. In that regard, the tag worked as intended for both. The Giants got the production they wanted and Williams backed up his request. Now, I think the Giants will feel pressured to re-sign him and will overpay. We can only hope collectively that he plays somewhere near this level, especially with the prospect of Graham being gone.
I'd also go further to say that I wouldn't mind the 2nd year of the franchise tag if I had confidence it wouldn't create issues for him. (I think it likely would)
I wouldn't say the draft picks are worth two years though, and that is where I think a cohesive strategy to win is very important.
These days increasingly in the NFL it is very hard to sustain success and you have to kind of line up your assets. That 3rd and 4th round pick we traded for him had the opportunity to add value to teams more in our likely competition window. And to me that's where the draft pick thing is important. In the end, it looks like we will sign him to the kind of overpay deal that players on the open market sign and players of his caliber are available at every offseason for the overpay.
IMO you should only trade picks for a player who you have locked in at a good price, especially without the cap hit of the bonus or A+ premium players like Ramsey that are never going to hit FA. And IF you are going to trade for a non-elite player without time left on their deal, you have to agree to terms at the time of the trade. The reasons are obvious why you'd want to do it in only these ways...
Quote:
Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
What in the actual fuck?????
Holy shit.
We have one poster who continues to think that Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux played RG in college (hint: neither ever did). We have another poster who thinks himself a football oracle (when asked for the stud receivers that UGA recruited, he brought up Mecole Hardman....with a straight face and condescending tone).
You two are criticizing our very best player and also offering nothing in defense of the fact that it takes quite a while for D Linemen to "get it".
The worst is poster 2 defending letting go of the best player on the D line that sacked Russell Wilson 3 times yesterdaY because he is in a contract year.
Literally cant make this up. How did that work out when we let Cornelius Griffin walk? How about Linval?
What happens when the posters who think they are the smartest say the dumbest shit?
Correct.
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In comment 15069990 Matt M. said:
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Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
What in the actual fuck?????
Holy shit.
We have one poster who continues to think that Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux played RG in college (hint: neither ever did). We have another poster who thinks himself a football oracle (when asked for the stud receivers that UGA recruited, he brought up Mecole Hardman....with a straight face and condescending tone).
You two are criticizing our very best player and also offering nothing in defense of the fact that it takes quite a while for D Linemen to "get it".
The worst is poster 2 defending letting go of the best player on the D line that sacked Russell Wilson 3 times yesterdaY because he is in a contract year.
Literally cant make this up. How did that work out when we let Cornelius Griffin walk? How about Linval?
What happens when the posters who think they are the smartest say the dumbest shit?
I'd also go further to say that I wouldn't mind the 2nd year of the franchise tag if I had confidence it wouldn't create issues for him. (I think it likely would)
I wouldn't say the draft picks are worth two years though, and that is where I think a cohesive strategy to win is very important.
These days increasingly in the NFL it is very hard to sustain success and you have to kind of line up your assets. That 3rd and 4th round pick we traded for him had the opportunity to add value to teams more in our likely competition window. And to me that's where the draft pick thing is important. In the end, it looks like we will sign him to the kind of overpay deal that players on the open market sign and players of his caliber are available at every offseason for the overpay.
IMO you should only trade picks for a player who you have locked in at a good price, especially without the cap hit of the bonus or A+ premium players like Ramsey that are never going to hit FA. And IF you are going to trade for a non-elite player without time left on their deal, you have to agree to terms at the time of the trade. The reasons are obvious why you'd want to do it in only these ways...
I think back to older defenses. In the 80s, if we had the cap, we would have had a similar decision for much better players, in my opinion. You know LT would get paid because he was the greatest player in the history of the league, in my opinion. But, what if we had the cap to worry about. We might have had to let Banks walk earlier than he did...or crippled our team with multiple large deals leaving the rest of the roster with crumbs.
Same thing happened with Armstead, for example. And others.
Again, I have no doubt this season deserves a payday. But, if we give it to him and he doesn't produce like this year multiple times we run the risk of crippling this team's chances of continuing to grow and improve. So, do you fully believe he will continue to earn $18-20M?
My other question is less clear? If we don't re-sign him (I think we will), does that mean we can sign 2 good FAs? Would we sign 1 big name? Nobody? Re-sign Tomlilnson instead? Will we re-sign Tomlinson in addition to Williams? Can we move forward with that much money invested in the DL?
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Good thoughts. Team LW have to feel they are in the pole position going into the offseason in terms of first ask.
I'd still let Team LW walk and say thanks for a great year. Just don't feel comfortable with paying for what looks like - finally - a real breakthrough year. If we decide to keep him, I'd FT one more time...
Agree on tag. I absolutely love the season he is having. But, one, I don't trust we will see it again and two, I don't think it is a $20M season.
It's not a breakthrough year though. He's the same damn player. Stats are team dependant, especially for interior pass rushing DL. I imagine we'll be having this same conversation with Saquon next year, when he's magically the only guy in history to set his personal yardage records post injury.
Again, to be clear, I am NOT saying he is not a good player. I am also NOT saying he can't continue to be a good to very good player. I am NOT even saying he is not a great player based on this year. What I am saying is 2 things. One, he does not have a history of being a great player. Two, because of one, I think it is fair, after 6 seasons, to at least wonder if this year is an aberration or a sign of things to come.
1) He remained with the Jets
2) He maintained the same level of play with them (not even elevating to what we got)
What do you think he would have brought in via FA last off season? I honestly think we did him a favor. There is no way he was getting near the tag value based on prior production. We gave him a change of scenery to up his value some. But, without that, is he much more than a $30-40M/3 years guy?
Under that scenario, and hitting the open market, I think Team LW would have been looking at Grady Jarrett as the comp. Jarrett received $68M/4 yrs in the summer of 2019. Around $17 AAV.
Jarrett, IMV, was better at the time. So I could see teams going back to Jurrell Casey's contract a few years back - again, similar players and production - and he got something like $60M/4 yrs. AAV of $15M.
Perhaps Team LW and a team settle on $16M AAV over 4.
I think we did LW a favor AND he did us a favor going into this year. He got the opportunity to really up his game and we got a chance to see in a system that seems to fit him very well.
Now it's going to get very interesting if LW continues his good play down the stretch. If so, the asking price is going to be enormous. Which is what Team LW should do...
If the question was simply re-sign him, it gets a resounding yes from me. When the question is do we re-sign him at $18-20M for 5 years, I don't say yes. I can understand saying yes. But, I would lean toward no. And, if we say yes, I 100% hope my concerns are all proven to be unfounded by Williams and the faith in him is rewarded.
Stop saying I am criticizing Williams I am not. bw is not. Others who are concerned about a deal like this are not. Nobody dislikes Williams.
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In comment 15071061 bw in dc said:
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Good thoughts. Team LW have to feel they are in the pole position going into the offseason in terms of first ask.
I'd still let Team LW walk and say thanks for a great year. Just don't feel comfortable with paying for what looks like - finally - a real breakthrough year. If we decide to keep him, I'd FT one more time...
Agree on tag. I absolutely love the season he is having. But, one, I don't trust we will see it again and two, I don't think it is a $20M season.
It's not a breakthrough year though. He's the same damn player. Stats are team dependant, especially for interior pass rushing DL. I imagine we'll be having this same conversation with Saquon next year, when he's magically the only guy in history to set his personal yardage records post injury.
LW is on pace to get 12 sacks as DT. That's a big number. So that is a break through year.
I think back to older defenses. In the 80s, if we had the cap, we would have had a similar decision for much better players, in my opinion. You know LT would get paid because he was the greatest player in the history of the league, in my opinion. But, what if we had the cap to worry about. We might have had to let Banks walk earlier than he did...or crippled our team with multiple large deals leaving the rest of the roster with crumbs.
Same thing happened with Armstead, for example. And others.
Again, I have no doubt this season deserves a payday. But, if we give it to him and he doesn't produce like this year multiple times we run the risk of crippling this team's chances of continuing to grow and improve. So, do you fully believe he will continue to earn $18-20M?
My other question is less clear? If we don't re-sign him (I think we will), does that mean we can sign 2 good FAs? Would we sign 1 big name? Nobody? Re-sign Tomlilnson instead? Will we re-sign Tomlinson in addition to Williams? Can we move forward with that much money invested in the DL?
If that's your bar, you'd literally never sign anyone in FA. What cripples the cap is when you sign a guy to big money and he is injuried or the type of play doesn't even come close to producing results that justify it. In fact, if we sign LW to a 5 year contract and his giving you close to the type of play we are seeing now it would have to be one of the bargains of the NFL in 2025. This is actually part of the Cowboys resigning strategy, and while risky, it can pay dividends. They try to sign their guys to deals for as long as possible for the ones worth it. They signed Tyron Smith to a 7 year deal although there is potential that bites them in the ass towards the end, but he's been a bargain for years now.
As far as crippling the cap, obviously you want to use your cap smartly, but I'd remind you of Nate Solder. He's been attrocious and it doesn't seem to be hurting us that much. What hurts the most is signing guys outside what the market is saying and hurt. The only reason the Vernon contract hurt because it was a preposterous contract for what the market dictated and he magically started to get hurt a lot after being very healthy for Dolphins. The market has been dictated here. Cam Heywerd just signed a 16.5 million contract for 4 years and he's over 30. I'd love to see LW sign for about 18 million, and think there's an outside shot here, but if 20 million is what it takes to get it done so be it. After that I start to understand the hesitation more and more.
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In comment 15070480 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15069990 Matt M. said:
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Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
What in the actual fuck?????
Holy shit.
We have one poster who continues to think that Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux played RG in college (hint: neither ever did). We have another poster who thinks himself a football oracle (when asked for the stud receivers that UGA recruited, he brought up Mecole Hardman....with a straight face and condescending tone).
You two are criticizing our very best player and also offering nothing in defense of the fact that it takes quite a while for D Linemen to "get it".
The worst is poster 2 defending letting go of the best player on the D line that sacked Russell Wilson 3 times yesterdaY because he is in a contract year.
Literally cant make this up. How did that work out when we let Cornelius Griffin walk? How about Linval?
What happens when the posters who think they are the smartest say the dumbest shit?
No, I thought Hernandez played RG. I never said that about Lemieux and expressly said that is one reason I wanted him at LG. I may have not remembered the article about him and Zeitler correctly, but so far the end result seems to be correct. Get over it.
You def said that "both have experience at RG".... it was def a thing.
But its all good.
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In comment 15071304 chopperhatch said:
Quote:
In comment 15070480 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15069990 Matt M. said:
Quote:
Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
What in the actual fuck?????
Holy shit.
We have one poster who continues to think that Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux played RG in college (hint: neither ever did). We have another poster who thinks himself a football oracle (when asked for the stud receivers that UGA recruited, he brought up Mecole Hardman....with a straight face and condescending tone).
You two are criticizing our very best player and also offering nothing in defense of the fact that it takes quite a while for D Linemen to "get it".
The worst is poster 2 defending letting go of the best player on the D line that sacked Russell Wilson 3 times yesterdaY because he is in a contract year.
Literally cant make this up. How did that work out when we let Cornelius Griffin walk? How about Linval?
What happens when the posters who think they are the smartest say the dumbest shit?
No, I thought Hernandez played RG. I never said that about Lemieux and expressly said that is one reason I wanted him at LG. I may have not remembered the article about him and Zeitler correctly, but so far the end result seems to be correct. Get over it.
You def said that "both have experience at RG".... it was def a thing.
But its all good.
And I wasnt referring to you when pointing out that someone suggested letting LW walk
Quote:
If we never traded for him and assuming two things:
1) He remained with the Jets
2) He maintained the same level of play with them (not even elevating to what we got)
What do you think he would have brought in via FA last off season? I honestly think we did him a favor. There is no way he was getting near the tag value based on prior production. We gave him a change of scenery to up his value some. But, without that, is he much more than a $30-40M/3 years guy?
Under that scenario, and hitting the open market, I think Team LW would have been looking at Grady Jarrett as the comp. Jarrett received $68M/4 yrs in the summer of 2019. Around $17 AAV.
Jarrett, IMV, was better at the time. So I could see teams going back to Jurrell Casey's contract a few years back - again, similar players and production - and he got something like $60M/4 yrs. AAV of $15M.
Perhaps Team LW and a team settle on $16M AAV over 4.
I think we did LW a favor AND he did us a favor going into this year. He got the opportunity to really up his game and we got a chance to see in a system that seems to fit him very well.
Now it's going to get very interesting if LW continues his good play down the stretch. If so, the asking price is going to be enormous. Which is what Team LW should do...
I agree 100% with the notion that we did him a favor and he did us a favor. The tag worked out great for both parties. At the very worst, he upped his price and we got his very best for a year. At the best for both parties, we reach an agreement, he gets paid, and we get a very good DL for the next 3-5 years (I won't commit to 5 because you never know when it turns into a potential cap casualty). The only real losing scenario for Giants fans is signing him and he underperforms (or returns to the Jets version of Williams).
Solder opting out cleared up space for Logan Ryan to be on the team, see how that worked out nicely for us?
We've been steaming pile of crap both years we had his money on the books. He wasn't the only reason for that but this point makes zero sense.
A lot of people survive car accidents, doesn't mean you should point that out and drive sloppily.
And he is playing this perfectly on and off the field. Notice how he is being quoted weekly now on buying into the Judge-system.
Will say it again, looking forward to the extended market contract he signs for the Giants.
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In comment 15071332 Matt M. said:
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In comment 15071304 chopperhatch said:
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In comment 15070480 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15069990 Matt M. said:
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Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
What in the actual fuck?????
Holy shit.
We have one poster who continues to think that Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux played RG in college (hint: neither ever did). We have another poster who thinks himself a football oracle (when asked for the stud receivers that UGA recruited, he brought up Mecole Hardman....with a straight face and condescending tone).
You two are criticizing our very best player and also offering nothing in defense of the fact that it takes quite a while for D Linemen to "get it".
The worst is poster 2 defending letting go of the best player on the D line that sacked Russell Wilson 3 times yesterdaY because he is in a contract year.
Literally cant make this up. How did that work out when we let Cornelius Griffin walk? How about Linval?
What happens when the posters who think they are the smartest say the dumbest shit?
No, I thought Hernandez played RG. I never said that about Lemieux and expressly said that is one reason I wanted him at LG. I may have not remembered the article about him and Zeitler correctly, but so far the end result seems to be correct. Get over it.
You def said that "both have experience at RG".... it was def a thing.
But its all good.
And I wasnt referring to you when pointing out that someone suggested letting LW walk
The thing with Hernandez stemmed from an article centered around Zeitler from last year. If I remember correctly (I guess that is a question now), the writer suggested Zeitler played multiple positions for Buffalo, but played his best at LG. I thought I read that Hernandez played RG in college, so it would have made sense to move him to RG and play Zeitler at LG. I gotn that part wrong.
But, I never said anything about Lemieux at RG. I am 100% certain of that. I was also never interested in him at RG.
As for the future at RG, I think it is an interesting question. I think Zeitler the last few weeks has played better and might be the better of the two with Hernandez, However, I think being a little older and with his salary he is more likely to be gone as a cap casulty. So, do you proceed, at least on paper before FA and draft with Hernandez as the RG, do you get rid of both, or do you bring someone in for an open competition?
I would say chances are he goes back to being the player that he was before this season - players have their peak or career years. And that isn't a bad thing, esp if we do find that ER in the draft.......but money is an issue.
I am not under the impression he's finally figured it out. Guy's a hard worker, never misses a game, and things are falling right for him 2020.
However, you can make the case he's playing with better players and scheme, and this level of play is the new norm or close to it.
This will be a tough decision for DG (or whoever) & company.......
But if you don't notice the higher frequency this year of LW beating and sometimes even abusing people in 1 on 1 matchups, we aren't watching the same games.
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In comment 15071232 Matt M. said:
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If we never traded for him and assuming two things:
1) He remained with the Jets
2) He maintained the same level of play with them (not even elevating to what we got)
What do you think he would have brought in via FA last off season? I honestly think we did him a favor. There is no way he was getting near the tag value based on prior production. We gave him a change of scenery to up his value some. But, without that, is he much more than a $30-40M/3 years guy?
Under that scenario, and hitting the open market, I think Team LW would have been looking at Grady Jarrett as the comp. Jarrett received $68M/4 yrs in the summer of 2019. Around $17 AAV.
Jarrett, IMV, was better at the time. So I could see teams going back to Jurrell Casey's contract a few years back - again, similar players and production - and he got something like $60M/4 yrs. AAV of $15M.
Perhaps Team LW and a team settle on $16M AAV over 4.
I think we did LW a favor AND he did us a favor going into this year. He got the opportunity to really up his game and we got a chance to see in a system that seems to fit him very well.
Now it's going to get very interesting if LW continues his good play down the stretch. If so, the asking price is going to be enormous. Which is what Team LW should do...
Exactly my take. First of all, I had him valued lower and from the looks of some of the deals being mentioned, too low. I would be very comfortable at $15M. When we get to the atmosphere he is looking to orbit, it concerns me.
I agree 100% with the notion that we did him a favor and he did us a favor. The tag worked out great for both parties. At the very worst, he upped his price and we got his very best for a year. At the best for both parties, we reach an agreement, he gets paid, and we get a very good DL for the next 3-5 years (I won't commit to 5 because you never know when it turns into a potential cap casualty). The only real losing scenario for Giants fans is signing him and he underperforms (or returns to the Jets version of Williams).
If the ask was $15M/year, Williams would have already been signed last spring.
What in the actual fuck?????
Holy shit.
We have one poster who continues to think that Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux played RG in college (hint: neither ever did). We have another poster who thinks himself a football oracle (when asked for the stud receivers that UGA recruited, he brought up Mecole Hardman....with a straight face and condescending tone).
You two are criticizing our very best player and also offering nothing in defense of the fact that it takes quite a while for D Linemen to "get it".
The worst is poster 2 defending letting go of the best player on the D line that sacked Russell Wilson 3 times yesterdaY because he is in a contract year.
Literally cant make this up. How did that work out when we let Cornelius Griffin walk? How about Linval?
What happens when the posters who think they are the smartest say the dumbest shit?
They refer to themselves as "chopperhatch".
We finally have an extremely stout young D-Line that plays excellent together and which is led by LW, and yet you have members posting the weakest arguments to not sign this guy. It's the same individuals who have ragged the deal from the start and IMO their egos can't handle the fact they were wrong and just double down in here.
Second, we paid him like a top 5 OL. He has been a mediocre LT, at best. That has absolutely been debilitating. It forced us to spend a premium pick on another LT. It forced us to play a shitty LT because of his salary. It eats up a lot of cap space. The bad side is, and I am not sure of this, but opting out extends his deal by a year, which means we will have his salary back on the books next year, because we wouldn';t cut him until the following year.
That said, the argument can still be made that it would have been more beneficial to pursue Williams in free agency rather than sacrificing draft picks to acquire him.
Assuming the market for him would have been limited given his pedestrian Jets resume, he could currently be playing in year one of a 3-4 year deal at something like $13-14 million per. Instead, he's playing on the franchise tag, and looking at a huge payday in the offseason.
All that said, he's been much better than I anticipated.
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Can you honestly and confidently say you expect and believe Williams will replicate this level of production not once but 3 or more times in the next 5?
I would say chances are he goes back to being the player that he was before this season - players have their peak or career years. And that isn't a bad thing, esp if we do find that ER in the draft.......but money is an issue.
I am not under the impression he's finally figured it out. Guy's a hard worker, never misses a game, and things are falling right for him 2020.
However, you can make the case he's playing with better players and scheme, and this level of play is the new norm or close to it.
This will be a tough decision for DG (or whoever) & company.......
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As far as crippling the cap, obviously you want to use your cap smartly, but I'd remind you of Nate Solder. He's been attrocious and it doesn't seem to be hurting us that much.
Solder opting out cleared up space for Logan Ryan to be on the team, see how that worked out nicely for us?
We've been steaming pile of crap both years we had his money on the books. He wasn't the only reason for that but this point makes zero sense.
A lot of people survive car accidents, doesn't mean you should point that out and drive sloppily.
This is a good point and I thought about that while making this post actually. I was more referencing moving forward. It hasn't handicapped us all that much as far as 2021 is concerned. Obviously you want to make best use of you cap dollars and that signing absolutely does hurt, but I was more referencing this as it pertains to LW. Paying a guy market value, that has been very healthy, that is only 25 or 26 will almost certainly not hurt.
Solder was a slightly declining player at 30 that fell of the cliff, it was a risky gamble. We however have no idea what the stipulations of taking the Giants job in 2018 were. Because all the people that point to DG being an absolute failure, I point to them it was only really bad in 2018.
Moving forward has been really good. Especially considering the fact that in season in 2018, either he realized his mistake or it was an easy sell to ownership this wasn't going to be a quick fix. In fact the further we get, the better the moves start to look, which would have killed that argument this year, if we didn't start 0-5 and currently sit at 5-7 there would be no argument.
I did a couple all 22 breakdowns last year and what was apparent to me is our coaching staff was some of the worst I've seen. DG was completely sunk by Shurmur and the clown car. After the Patriots game I was kind of perplexed that Shurmur could force results out of QBs and still don't have a theory on that. Not just schematically either, we know guys regressed under this coaching staff. Hal Hunter coaching our line made me sick. Personally, I put that at his feet actually as that's where I believe the signs point to, but I don't have tangible proof of that. I think he had a very minimal voice in hiring Judge, but once again, I have no proof of that.
We finally have an extremely stout young D-Line that plays excellent together and which is led by LW, and yet you have members posting the weakest arguments to not sign this guy. It's the same individuals who have ragged the deal from the start and IMO their egos can't handle the fact they were wrong and just double down in here.
At a lower price, I think it is the kind of signing that would have intrigued most. Some would question whether he was worth the $15M or so. Others would optimistically think a change of scenery would potentially yield the player the Jets thought they were getting. If he then went out and played like this, we'd feel like we got a steal. If he went out and played like he did for us last year, we'd be happy, but looking for more. If he played like he did for most of his Jets career, we'd be pissed and ripping Gettleman.
I still do not love the trade, but I love the player we get. That doesn't mean I didn't want him or thought the 3rd round pick would outperform him. AGAIN, 2 notions that nobody here claimed (or at least I know I didn't). I would have liked to have snagged him in FA and had a 3rd round pick, especially with the draft we just had. I would like both. I would also like Williams for another 3-5 years, which unfortunately is not a foregone conclusion with what he is asking. I don't blame him for asking because he is having the season to back it up. I also expect the Giants to give him close to what he wants and him to take it. I only hope he continues to live up to it.
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As far as crippling the cap, obviously you want to use your cap smartly, but I'd remind you of Nate Solder. He's been attrocious and it doesn't seem to be hurting us that much.
Solder opting out cleared up space for Logan Ryan to be on the team, see how that worked out nicely for us?
We've been steaming pile of crap both years we had his money on the books. He wasn't the only reason for that but this point makes zero sense.
A lot of people survive car accidents, doesn't mean you should point that out and drive sloppily.
This is a good point and I thought about that while making this post actually. I was more referencing moving forward. It hasn't handicapped us all that much as far as 2021 is concerned. Obviously you want to make best use of you cap dollars and that signing absolutely does hurt, but I was more referencing this as it pertains to LW. Paying a guy market value, that has been very healthy, that is only 25 or 26 will almost certainly not hurt.
Solder was a slightly declining player at 30 that fell of the cliff, it was a risky gamble. We however have no idea what the stipulations of taking the Giants job in 2018 were. Because all the people that point to DG being an absolute failure, I point to them it was only really bad in 2018.
Moving forward has been really good. Especially considering the fact that in season in 2018, either he realized his mistake or it was an easy sell to ownership this wasn't going to be a quick fix. In fact the further we get, the better the moves start to look, which would have killed that argument this year, if we didn't start 0-5 and currently sit at 5-7 there would be no argument.
I did a couple all 22 breakdowns last year and what was apparent to me is our coaching staff was some of the worst I've seen. DG was completely sunk by Shurmur and the clown car. After the Patriots game I was kind of perplexed that Shurmur could force results out of QBs and still don't have a theory on that. Not just schematically either, we know guys regressed under this coaching staff. Hal Hunter coaching our line made me sick. Personally, I put that at his feet actually as that's where I believe the signs point to, but I don't have tangible proof of that. I think he had a very minimal voice in hiring Judge, but once again, I have no proof of that.
Second, we paid him like a top 5 OL. He has been a mediocre LT, at best. That has absolutely been debilitating. It forced us to spend a premium pick on another LT. It forced us to play a shitty LT because of his salary. It eats up a lot of cap space. The bad side is, and I am not sure of this, but opting out extends his deal by a year, which means we will have his salary back on the books next year, because we wouldn';t cut him until the following year.
One - Solder has been of the worst tackles in football. The point is there were signs his play was declinging and we were singing a 30-year-old tackle to the most money ever at the position. I was more referencing as it pertains to 2021. Obviously SuperBowl caliber teams can't have contracts like that on books, but the point is that hasn't completely sunk us as far as being competitive goes and LW doesn't even come close to coming to those parameters you laid out. LW is the same damn player he has before this big sack season. The film bears that out.
And like you and BW I think it is a red flag when guys turn it up in a contract year. Gotta start asking yourself some questions to dive deeper. Personality-wise, he certainly isn't that. And if was just a contract year thing, why not last year as well? Last year was a contract year for him too.
But if you don't notice the higher frequency this year of LW beating and sometimes even abusing people in 1 on 1 matchups, we aren't watching the same games.
He did the same, but the coverage was bad or we got zero from the edge. He's the same player. I will say yesterday he turned it up a notch, but that's variance and in my minds a good sign. I like guys that play like a man possessed in the biggest games, in close games, with the most stakes on the line, when I'm sure it was made clear to them all week are going to need a heroic effort for you with Colt starting at QB.
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is Solder sucks and he has a big contract? First of all, the only reason his contract isn't killing us is he elected not to play this year due to COVID. Otherwise, he would likely be our LT (ugh) and his salary would prohibit us from making one or more deals we made to shore up the D in response to injuries and other circumstances.
Second, we paid him like a top 5 OL. He has been a mediocre LT, at best. That has absolutely been debilitating. It forced us to spend a premium pick on another LT. It forced us to play a shitty LT because of his salary. It eats up a lot of cap space. The bad side is, and I am not sure of this, but opting out extends his deal by a year, which means we will have his salary back on the books next year, because we wouldn';t cut him until the following year.
One - Solder has been of the worst tackles in football. The point is there were signs his play was declinging and we were singing a 30-year-old tackle to the most money ever at the position. I was more referencing as it pertains to 2021. Obviously SuperBowl caliber teams can't have contracts like that on books, but the point is that hasn't completely sunk us as far as being competitive goes and LW doesn't even come close to coming to those parameters you laid out. LW is the same damn player he has before this big sack season. The film bears that out.
And like you and BW I think it is a red flag when guys turn it up in a contract year. Gotta start asking yourself some questions to dive deeper. Personality-wise, he certainly isn't that. And if was just a contract year thing, why not last year as well? Last year was a contract year for him too.
Bottom line, if he was the same player he was on the Jets, I don't think we are having this conversation. The question, as with all FA, is this the player he will be for 3-5 years. I certainly hope so.
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Without LW?
We finally have an extremely stout young D-Line that plays excellent together and which is led by LW, and yet you have members posting the weakest arguments to not sign this guy. It's the same individuals who have ragged the deal from the start and IMO their egos can't handle the fact they were wrong and just double down in here.
Again, don't misrepresent what anyone said. Who said the Giants would be better without him? Pretty much everyone said they would love to proceed with him on the DL. Even most that didn't like the trade never disliked the player. Speaking for myself, I liked the idea of adding Williams but once we knew he was their interest, I would have preferred via FA as opposed to trade. I firmly believe that could have happened for significantly less than the approximately $20M he is looking for.
At a lower price, I think it is the kind of signing that would have intrigued most. Some would question whether he was worth the $15M or so. Others would optimistically think a change of scenery would potentially yield the player the Jets thought they were getting. If he then went out and played like this, we'd feel like we got a steal. If he went out and played like he did for us last year, we'd be happy, but looking for more. If he played like he did for most of his Jets career, we'd be pissed and ripping Gettleman.
I still do not love the trade, but I love the player we get. That doesn't mean I didn't want him or thought the 3rd round pick would outperform him. AGAIN, 2 notions that nobody here claimed (or at least I know I didn't). I would have liked to have snagged him in FA and had a 3rd round pick, especially with the draft we just had. I would like both. I would also like Williams for another 3-5 years, which unfortunately is not a foregone conclusion with what he is asking. I don't blame him for asking because he is having the season to back it up. I also expect the Giants to give him close to what he wants and him to take it. I only hope he continues to live up to it.
I wasn't referencing you MM. I also view the trade in a way that the draft picks given up in no way assures you of getting an avg starter let alone the backbone of your D. Of course when first done it did appear to be a bit much for a player who had not fulfilled close to his potential yet. Now I think it was an excellent trade
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In comment 15071464 montanagiant said:
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Without LW?
We finally have an extremely stout young D-Line that plays excellent together and which is led by LW, and yet you have members posting the weakest arguments to not sign this guy. It's the same individuals who have ragged the deal from the start and IMO their egos can't handle the fact they were wrong and just double down in here.
Again, don't misrepresent what anyone said. Who said the Giants would be better without him? Pretty much everyone said they would love to proceed with him on the DL. Even most that didn't like the trade never disliked the player. Speaking for myself, I liked the idea of adding Williams but once we knew he was their interest, I would have preferred via FA as opposed to trade. I firmly believe that could have happened for significantly less than the approximately $20M he is looking for.
At a lower price, I think it is the kind of signing that would have intrigued most. Some would question whether he was worth the $15M or so. Others would optimistically think a change of scenery would potentially yield the player the Jets thought they were getting. If he then went out and played like this, we'd feel like we got a steal. If he went out and played like he did for us last year, we'd be happy, but looking for more. If he played like he did for most of his Jets career, we'd be pissed and ripping Gettleman.
I still do not love the trade, but I love the player we get. That doesn't mean I didn't want him or thought the 3rd round pick would outperform him. AGAIN, 2 notions that nobody here claimed (or at least I know I didn't). I would have liked to have snagged him in FA and had a 3rd round pick, especially with the draft we just had. I would like both. I would also like Williams for another 3-5 years, which unfortunately is not a foregone conclusion with what he is asking. I don't blame him for asking because he is having the season to back it up. I also expect the Giants to give him close to what he wants and him to take it. I only hope he continues to live up to it.
I wasn't referencing you MM. I also view the trade in a way that the draft picks given up in no way assures you of getting an avg starter let alone the backbone of your D. Of course when first done it did appear to be a bit much for a player who had not fulfilled close to his potential yet. Now I think it was an excellent trade
We can have that discussion in the abstract - I think it's a pretty interesting one - but if we accept that the Giants are not going to build their team that way, in that case the "peak year" argument when applied to Leonard W is just pure c**p (sorry to be blunt).
I remember reading in the draft write-ups when LW entered the NFL that many pro scouts thought he was the best player in the draft. On draft night, people were surprised that he slipped all the way to the Jets. Then he gets stuck playing for an abysmal organization. Next, he comes here and plays for Bettcher, actually playing pretty well. Now, he's suddenly on a team that is developing with excellent coaching and he's kicking butt.
What about this situation screams out that LW is a particular high risk signing? The answer is nothing. I haven't even brought up yet how everyone thinks he's a professional who is good in the locker room. Case closed.
And please stop with the "we should have just signed him in FA". He wasn't getting to FA. Add to the fact that we certainly aren't going to be big players in FA this year and even on the offchance we don't resign him we'll get a 3rd comp pick.
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
We can have that discussion in the abstract - I think it's a pretty interesting one - but if we accept that the Giants are not going to build their team that way, in that case the "peak year" argument when applied to Leonard W is just pure c**p (sorry to be blunt).
I remember reading in the draft write-ups when LW entered the NFL that many pro scouts thought he was the best player in the draft. On draft night, people were surprised that he slipped all the way to the Jets. Then he gets stuck playing for an abysmal organization. Next, he comes here and plays for Bettcher, actually playing pretty well. Now, he's suddenly on a team that is developing with excellent coaching and he's kicking butt.
What about this situation screams out that LW is a particular high risk signing? The answer is nothing. I haven't even brought up yet how everyone thinks he's a professional who is good in the locker room. Case closed.
Exactly. In fact guys like LW don't make FA because their own teams resign them. The type of guys they let walk generally have injury red flags or are limited as players. Exactly why we had to trade for him and there were other suitors.
People are acting like he's a different player here I know are only results orientated and not process. Unless your name is Aaron Donald, you aren't generating sacks on your own as an interior DL. He's pretty much a unicorn in NFL history as far as interior DL go. And we won't even have to pay him like we would have to pay Donald. That was the impasse on Donald's contract for a while and that's why the Rams folded and gave him the contract.
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
Agree, so why didn’t DG sign him earlier this year? Was he trying to save the Giants money but now actually caused the opposite?
What about this situation screams out that LW is a particular high risk signing? The answer is nothing. I haven't even brought up yet how everyone thinks he's a professional who is good in the locker room. Case closed.
At the right price, LW is not high risk. That's been the crux of the debate.
IMV, he's a good player. A good player playing pretty damn well right now. But is he a great player who deserves elite money?
I read that he's doing what LW has always done. Sorry, I don't buy that. He's closing the deal this year by taking the QB down. That is what great players do. They finish.
Do we remember all of the times LT nearly got to the QB? Uh, no. We remember that he closed.
IMO this is the wrong way of looking at this question.
If there was any "confident" way to replicate pro bowl production from a DL the going rate for players like LW wouldn't be $20m. And even more so if there were multiple ways to confidently replace that production.
So here's how I would phrase the right question. What is the best use of $ to purchase production in FA next year? Then you weigh that production against Leonard Williams cost/contributions.
If they believe he's been the best player on defense this year, and has the right work ethic, it's going to be very hard to find a player that can match his production because he also never misses games.
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The fact is salaries increase, especially for top players, every year
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
Agree, so why didn’t DG sign him earlier this year? Was he trying to save the Giants money but now actually caused the opposite?
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The fact is salaries increase, especially for top players, every year
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
Agree, so why didn’t DG sign him earlier this year? Was he trying to save the Giants money but now actually caused the opposite?
There were rumors of him wanting 18-20 million that’s why. Hard to sign a guy with to that type of contract until proof is in the pudding. There’s also no benefit when you can just tag him at that point.
Maybe he's....you know.....progressing? This is such an arm chair take. He's been an excellent player playing in poor overall conditions. Now he's playing in good conditions, for a good coaching staff, and looks much better as he approaches his prime. Not being able to evaluate a good player on a bad team is pretty lame. The guy had 17.5 sacks before he got to NY and the talk was "can this guy ever get a sack"? It's classic head in the ground, "I only watch the Giants" nonsense. Look at the thread when we originally acquired him - there are a few people who actually watched him play and followed his career that were happy about the trade. There's a reason for that.
This.
I'd feel a ton more comfortable dumping money on LW if he we saw this production two years in a row...........
Could the simple solution be franchise him a second time, and show me again?
What happens if Team LW suggests that is due to letting Dalvin walk in free agency and put more pressure on LW to perform? What happens if its because Bradberry or the secondary is banged up all year in 2021 and hurries/sacks drop for everybody.
Transition tag?
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
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people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
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And if was just a contract year thing, why not last year as well? Last year was a contract year for him too.
This.
I'd feel a ton more comfortable dumping money on LW if he we saw this production two years in a row...........
Could the simple solution be franchise him a second time, and show me again?
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In comment 15072330 PatersonPlank said:
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people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
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Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
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Is he a good/very good player playing great this year or is he a great player? Hard to say, because he never played at this level before.
Maybe he's....you know.....progressing? This is such an arm chair take. He's been an excellent player playing in poor overall conditions. Now he's playing in good conditions, for a good coaching staff, and looks much better as he approaches his prime. Not being able to evaluate a good player on a bad team is pretty lame. The guy had 17.5 sacks before he got to NY and the talk was "can this guy ever get a sack"? It's classic head in the ground, "I only watch the Giants" nonsense. Look at the thread when we originally acquired him - there are a few people who actually watched him play and followed his career that were happy about the trade. There's a reason for that.
It is 100% possible the combination of his work ethic and the coaching and the defensive system and the players around him are all contributing factors to a career improvement after 6 seasons. But, it is also possible that this year is an aberration. That unknown is what troubles some.
Nobody denies he is having a great season. Nobody here dislikes him. It is purely the business end of the decision about paying him in the ballpark of $18-20M for the next 5 years that worries some.
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In comment 15072330 PatersonPlank said:
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people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
It's not my hang up that's the issue at all. I want LW signed to a market deal as much as anybody. Hell, even a market deal+ at this stage, otherwise I don't know why he was traded for.
But the reason he is not already isn't going away imv.
Free Agency...it will clear up everything.
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In comment 15072336 LBH15 said:
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In comment 15072330 PatersonPlank said:
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people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
It's not my hang up that's the issue at all. I want LW signed to a market deal as much as anybody. Hell, even a market deal+ at this stage, otherwise I don't know why he was traded for.
But the reason he is not already isn't going away imv.
Free Agency...it will clear up everything.
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
The reason is not is actually quite simple. The Giants were reluctant to pay the kind of money he was asking. They bought time by tagging him. Both sides did not meet an agreement before the deadline, so they each bank on the tag year. Williams bet on himself. Now, if the giants don't pay him, somebody else will. The Giants should have seen what they wanted and will likely pay him this offseason. This is a case where the tag worked out exactly how it is supposed to.
Let's see how this works out.
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people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
This notion that he was always this player is what is not sitting with me. You can say the Jets sucked. You can say we sucked and the scheme/lack of talent around him contributed to lack of stats. You can say whatever you want. But, never before this year was he a disruptive/dominating player. If we get anything resembling this player moving forward, everyone is happy (except NYG opponents). If we get the Jets Leonard Williams, people will be calling for his head.
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The reason is not is actually quite simple. The Giants were reluctant to pay the kind of money he was asking. They bought time by tagging him. Both sides did not meet an agreement before the deadline, so they each bank on the tag year. Williams bet on himself. Now, if the giants don't pay him, somebody else will. The Giants should have seen what they wanted and will likely pay him this offseason. This is a case where the tag worked out exactly how it is supposed to.
Let's see how this works out.
It's going to work out with the NYG giving LW a contract comparable to what Buckner/Jones got this past offseason. Read Judge's quote on Williams yesterday, never say never but it's unlikely they let him walk.
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In comment 15072330 PatersonPlank said:
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people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
That is how I see it also, but I am resigned to him getting pretty close to his asking price. If he reverts back to even the play with us last year, it is overpaying. If he plays similar to this season for 2 or 3 more years, I am thrilled.
This notion that he was always this player is what is not sitting with me. You can say the Jets sucked. You can say we sucked and the scheme/lack of talent around him contributed to lack of stats. You can say whatever you want. But, never before this year was he a disruptive/dominating player. If we get anything resembling this player moving forward, everyone is happy (except NYG opponents). If we get the Jets Leonard Williams, people will be calling for his head.
The risk of overpay (in an extended contract) has only grown in 2020. And it was pretty damn high already in 2019 because of the process that went down.
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In comment 15072406 Matt M. said:
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The reason is not is actually quite simple. The Giants were reluctant to pay the kind of money he was asking. They bought time by tagging him. Both sides did not meet an agreement before the deadline, so they each bank on the tag year. Williams bet on himself. Now, if the giants don't pay him, somebody else will. The Giants should have seen what they wanted and will likely pay him this offseason. This is a case where the tag worked out exactly how it is supposed to.
Let's see how this works out.
It's going to work out with the NYG giving LW a contract comparable to what Buckner/Jones got this past offseason. Read Judge's quote on Williams yesterday, never say never but it's unlikely they let him walk.
I agree it's unlikely they let him walk, the process they went thru basically ensured it. And I read the quote.
All things helping Team LW.
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In comment 15072410 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15072330 PatersonPlank said:
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people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
That is how I see it also, but I am resigned to him getting pretty close to his asking price. If he reverts back to even the play with us last year, it is overpaying. If he plays similar to this season for 2 or 3 more years, I am thrilled.
This notion that he was always this player is what is not sitting with me. You can say the Jets sucked. You can say we sucked and the scheme/lack of talent around him contributed to lack of stats. You can say whatever you want. But, never before this year was he a disruptive/dominating player. If we get anything resembling this player moving forward, everyone is happy (except NYG opponents). If we get the Jets Leonard Williams, people will be calling for his head.
The risk of overpay (in an extended contract) has only grown in 2020. And it was pretty damn high already in 2019 because of the process that went down.
I wish they would have signed him last year, so that the bulk of the guaranteed money hit in his 6th and 7th season. But it's not a tragedy if the bulk hits in his 7th and 8th.
I think his fair value right now is equal to the deal Buckner signed, $39.3M guaranteed at signing, with $44.3M total guarantees.
So long as it's in the Giants court whether to keep him on the team in his 9th and 10th NFL season.
I for one am glad they didn't pay him pre-results because I don't think the discount would have been all that significant. It was reported he wanted 18-20m, so lets say he'd have taken 18x4. Would you have preferred to pay him 72m last year or 80m off this year?
IMO the test drive with new staff/scheme was well worth that 10% increase.
He at least had consecutive years with 12 and 8 sacks with the 9ers. And he has essentially averaged 2X the sacks over his career versus LW. Not that this matters, but over the last three years when you talked about the best DTs in the NFL, Buckner was in the discussion.
I'm sticking with my original position:
(1) Let LW test the market to see what his true value is. If he walks, thanks for the last year of service.
(2) If the decision is to keep him, then we re-apply the tag. I don't trust DTs to have multiple great years unless they are from another planet like Donald.
Matt - with all do respect, I don't follow this logic. LW was specifically targeted and trade for by a losing team in the middle of the 2019 season. He was already exactly what they were looking for otherwise they shouldn't have done the deal. And I would think they saw more in him than he showed for the Jets otherwise why not see who else becomes available during free agency.
With that, they would have been far better off coming to an agreement (or had one in hand). Now I realize it takes two parties to agree to get it done, by how was the dynamic ever going to change and why would LW's price tag ever go down? Right now, it's Christmas time for Team LW under the cap and our guys made it happen.
He at least had consecutive years with 12 and 8 sacks with the 9ers. And he has essentially averaged 2X the sacks over his career versus LW. Not that this matters, but over the last three years when you talked about the best DTs in the NFL, Buckner was in the discussion.
I'm sticking with my original position:
(1) Let LW test the market to see what his true value is. If he walks, thanks for the last year of service.
(2) If the decision is to keep him, then we re-apply the tag. I don't trust DTs to have multiple great years unless they are from another planet like Donald.
1 is fine.
As to 2, if can get a market deal from him this offseason, his asking price is never going down.
He at least had consecutive years with 12 and 8 sacks with the 9ers. And he has essentially averaged 2X the sacks over his career versus LW. Not that this matters, but over the last three years when you talked about the best DTs in the NFL, Buckner was in the discussion.
I'm sticking with my original position:
(1) Let LW test the market to see what his true value is. If he walks, thanks for the last year of service.
(2) If the decision is to keep him, then we re-apply the tag. I don't trust DTs to have multiple great years unless they are from another planet like Donald.
The actuals in Buckner's deal are much more straight forward and less scary than the $84M/$21M AAV boogiemen numbers.
It's effectively a 2/$40.378 deal, with three 1 year options with zero guaranteed money in the last 3 years.
For 2/40M the Colts got 3 additional years of penalty free team control. Hell, in 2022 his cap hit is 16M total -- or they can cut him with no dead money.
William's franchise tender is going to be $19.35M. The most idiotic thing the team could do is pay him another 20M fully guaranteed with no future team control.
The question is can they agree somewhere between $18-20M or does Camp LW hold the Giants up further, using Chris Jones' recent deal as a benchmark.
Make no mistake, the Giants made the trade trying to lock him in sooner, and LW chose to bet himself and he has won.
William's franchise tender is going to be $19.35M. The most idiotic thing the team could do is pay him another 20M fully guaranteed with no future team control.
I just see it differently. I think it's actually a smart hedge. Let's see LW do it again.
Good point on the Buckner deal. But now that the details are out of the bag on that, I can't imagine Team LW signing that deal.
Nor should they, btw. They should ask for the moon. We just shouldn't give it to him...
The question is can they agree somewhere between $18-20M or does Camp LW hold the Giants up further, using Chris Jones' recent deal as a benchmark.
Make no mistake, the Giants made the trade trying to lock him in sooner, and LW chose to bet himself and he has won.
Always appreciate your insight JonC. As LW's performance, value and price rises, does that preclude signing Tomlinson altogether? Is there some point at which LW's market value and demands risw that the Giants would turn to resigning Tomlinson PLUS RYAN as a better value investment than allicating ~ 20+ mil per to Williams alone?
I even can imagine that signing Tomlinson plus Ryan plus extending BJ Hill would be seen as the better "value" play than paying LW over 20 mil per AAV...
I know your take has been, for quite awhile, that they would let Dalvin walk since the see him as more of a two down player, and ultimately more readily replaceable. In fact I think Lawrence getting snaps at 0 and 1 tech is a sort of preview for how the DL would work if DT is allowed to walk as an FA.
Do you have any insight as to how they currently wiew Hill and his upside?
The question is can they agree somewhere between $18-20M or does Camp LW hold the Giants up further, using Chris Jones' recent deal as a benchmark.
Make no mistake, the Giants made the trade trying to lock him in sooner, and LW chose to bet himself and he has won.
I want him signed even it costs us Tomlinson. If the cost was Barkley, I would rather have money tied in LW. He showed up with big plays in the most important game we have played in years.
You can't give the coaching staff credit for LW without also crediting DG. The GM is supposed to find players that have something. Coaches are supposed to get that something out of them.
Pay dat man his munny.
He earned it.
Straight up.
My take is they won't look to re-sign everyone. They will re-sign LW and Ryan, two of their best defenders right now, and DT is gone to a higher bidder. He would make a lot of sense for the Cowboys, if you're looking for a team that could move to drive up the price.
Dexter looks the part, a shame McIntosh can't get off the bench but Hill and Johnson have contributed.
My take is they won't look to re-sign everyone. They will re-sign LW and Ryan, two of their best defenders right now, and DT is gone to a higher bidder. He would make a lot of sense for the Cowboys, if you're looking for a team that could move to drive up the price.
Dexter looks the part, a shame McIntosh can't get off the bench but Hill and Johnson have contributed.
Side note, seeing some dog in Peppers.
I like this D.
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William's franchise tender is going to be $19.35M. The most idiotic thing the team could do is pay him another 20M fully guaranteed with no future team control.
I just see it differently. I think it's actually a smart hedge. Let's see LW do it again.
Good point on the Buckner deal. But now that the details are out of the bag on that, I can't imagine Team LW signing that deal.
Nor should they, btw. They should ask for the moon. We just shouldn't give it to him...
Sorry, my snark is more tongue in cheek, not directed at you.
I'm just a firm believer in using guaranteed money as leverage to secure future cost/control. Eric in Li have argued the meat square off the bones with this one!
My view is if the Giants franchise him again, they'll have paid him $35.42M fully guaranteed in 20/21, which is approaching the fully dollars the top guys are getting in their whole deals. Last year was the time to sign him.
Chris Jones is another example -- his deal is 4/80M -- but in reality it's 2/37.6M. Years 3 and 4 are effectively team options.
Reminds me of the Cranberries record - "Everybody Else Is Doing It, So Why Can't We?"
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In comment 15072551 christian said:
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William's franchise tender is going to be $19.35M. The most idiotic thing the team could do is pay him another 20M fully guaranteed with no future team control.
I just see it differently. I think it's actually a smart hedge. Let's see LW do it again.
Good point on the Buckner deal. But now that the details are out of the bag on that, I can't imagine Team LW signing that deal.
Nor should they, btw. They should ask for the moon. We just shouldn't give it to him...
Sorry, my snark is more tongue in cheek, not directed at you.
I'm just a firm believer in using guaranteed money as leverage to secure future cost/control. Eric in Li have argued the meat square off the bones with this one!
My view is if the Giants franchise him again, they'll have paid him $35.42M fully guaranteed in 20/21, which is approaching the fully dollars the top guys are getting in their whole deals. Last year was the time to sign him.
Chris Jones is another example -- his deal is 4/80M -- but in reality it's 2/37.6M. Years 3 and 4 are effectively team options.
Reminds me of the Cranberries record - "Everybody Else Is Doing It, So Why Can't We?"
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is the fact that this thread and discussion is even taking place is a good thing. It means Williams is having a great season and played to a level that makes the Giants seriously consider re-signing him. I think the worst case scenario going into the off season would have been him playing like last year. He was playing very well, but nowhere near what could be considered elite. That would have left them with a much tougher decision. On the other hand, if he just stunk up the joint, it would probably mean the Giants still sucked, but at least it would also cement the decision not to sign him. With his play, it probably cements the decision to try to re-sign him.
Matt - with all do respect, I don't follow this logic. LW was specifically targeted and trade for by a losing team in the middle of the 2019 season. He was already exactly what they were looking for otherwise they shouldn't have done the deal. And I would think they saw more in him than he showed for the Jets otherwise why not see who else becomes available during free agency.
With that, they would have been far better off coming to an agreement (or had one in hand). Now I realize it takes two parties to agree to get it done, by how was the dynamic ever going to change and why would LW's price tag ever go down? Right now, it's Christmas time for Team LW under the cap and our guys made it happen.
What you should do is sign him to a new deal that has no more than 40M guaranteed dollars, and give you near penalty-free flexibility over the 3rd and 4th year.
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We tried to sign him last year. Spilled milk. We don't beat Seattle without him. I can't imagine him not on the team next year. I would hate it. We should have met his demands this year. Whaddya gunna do?
What you should do is sign him to a new deal that has no more than 40M guaranteed dollars, and give you near penalty-free flexibility over the 3rd and 4th year.
Yeah. I think 4 years, $76M and $40M guaranteed is what I typed a few weeks ago as "reasonable" now.
Team LW may want to go above $80M and a higher guarantee at this point as he knows they know he is killing it on the field.
Got to be able to keep it within reason in order to still invest in the overall roster.
I am not saying definitively not to sign him. I am saying I have reservations doing so at that level based off a single season. I do admit that last Sunday goes a long way toward convincing anyone to pony up the money. His season overall has been great. But a performance like that against that opponent with what is at stake in December says something. If he can maintain this play through the next 4 weeks and have a big playoff game, I admit it is basically impossible not to pay him. But, that still doesn't guarantee that this year isn't the fluke.
Again, to be clear, because a lot of posts have been misrepresented by the opposing view, that doesn't mean he sucks or I think he will suck. It means he was nice player before who has elevated his game. There are many possible explanations as to why. Some, all, or none may be right. I think to bw's point, at this stage in his career it is hard to say you are confident you will get a repeat of 2020 once, let alone 2-3 times. If you don't, he is still a good player. He just isn't a $20M player outside of 2020.
FA in general is a risk. Nobody can be certain what the next season will bring, when a player starts to slow down, injury, etc. But, some players have 2 or more seasons to look at with past production to reasonably expect it. Williams doesn't have that. It doesn't discount this season. It merely allows for the question to be asked.
I don't, at any point, expect him to suck. No matter what, I expect a good player, because he has been that. The only question is will he continue beyond 2020 to be a great player. How does anyone not see that as a fair question?
Hell, maybe the Giants win it all this season and we can tell him to just test free agency!
Yeah. I think 4 years, $76M and $40M guaranteed is what I typed a few weeks ago as "reasonable" now.
Team LW may want to go above $80M and a higher guarantee at this point as he knows they know he is killing it on the field.
Got to be able to keep it within reason in order to still invest in the overall roster.
I'd like to see 4/70M, with 40M guaranteed at signing, 50M total guaranteed.
- 15M signing bonus
- 21/22 salaries guaranteed at signing
- 23 salary guaranteed first day of league year
2021 - 12.5M salary*, 5M bonus*
2022 - 12.5M salary*, 5M bonus*
2023 - 10M salary, 5M bonus*
2024 - 20M salary
The challenge with LW is I don't think he wanted fair value last offseason and I don't necessarily think he will want fair value this offseason. Makes me think more, can you build a winner if you are overpaying for a player non QB player? (Think there is plenty of precedent where paying a franchise QB like that you can win a SB so I won't delve into that)
Looking at the last 3 SB Champs:
2017 Pats
2018 Eagles
2019 Chiefs
Not calling this a statistically comprehensive analysis by any means but what jumps up at me immediately is for the Eagles and Pats at the top of the food chain you've got Foles at 7.65% of the cap and Brady at 8.36% of the cap. The next down for those teams are our buddy Solder at 6.66% and Cox at 6.39%.
The Chiefs had Sammy Watkins at 10.11% of the cap and then all the way down to Laurent Duvernay-Tardif at 4.35% of the cap. Looking at that I would not be surprised to hear they were doing aggressive accounting practices with NLTBE's to pay out all the big deals this year. That being said, it is well documented that having a star QB like Mahomes on a rookie deal gets you a lot of flexibility. And you have Tyreek Hill at 1.16% of the cap as well. Totaling 11.27% of the cap for the top 2 receivers.
Now let's look at the Giants, who have their top 2 receivers at 9.55% of the cap this year. LW is taking up 8.17% or just a tick less than Brady. No doubt keeping him will count more. He is definitely going to increase that number this year, which to me, especially in a potentially sinking cap begs the question, can you win with him at a higher % and Jones not on a rookie deal? I'm not sure that makes sense to me, especially if you are paying Saquon too at a position not traditionally allocated to.
This rudimentary analysis would also kind of point to paying DT and LW perhaps as too much of an overallocation especially beyond a Jones rookie deal. (The Chiefs are paying both Hill and Watkins this year but Mahomes has a $5M cap hit which is even lower than most QB rookie deals of QBs that are impact starters)
I think especially because this roster doesn't have a lot of current star power, I'm certainly not saying you let LW walk. I'm just not sure our assets are lining up correctly for a championship squad given this roster. Would love to see counter examples further back if people have them. I'd also argue that with each passing year winning is more about allocating well and building a system around that allocation where you can let players that want to be overpaid walk than ever before. The exception being finding a player like Brady who will sign under market to give you a competitive advantage.
Regardless, you take a player like Bradberry, who is just as good at his position as LW and is just looking for a "fair" deal every time. I'm worried LW and the way we set up the leverage may have been doomed from the start, as dominant as he's looking this year inclusive of that. As it is with most high value assets, and athletes might be some of the highest value assets in the world on a unit basis, it's more about price, leverage, if you are able to project them forward better than your competition in some explainable way, etc.
The challenge with LW is I don't think he wanted fair value last offseason and I don't necessarily think he will want fair value this offseason. Makes me think more, can you build a winner if you are overpaying for a player non QB player? (Think there is plenty of precedent where paying a franchise QB like that you can win a SB so I won't delve into that)
You sure about that? Pretty sure it's Colin Cowherd, but not sure, loves to hammer home is that a QB has never won a SB making more than 15 percent of the cap. Now Brady obviously skews those numbers, but I don't think there is any evidence that teams can win a SB with their QB making a large percentage of the cap. Personally, for these type of arguments, I like to choose making a SB. The sample size of teams that win SB is just too small and things are always evolving in NFL so you can never go too far back.
I'd like to see 4/70M, with 40M guaranteed at signing, 50M total guaranteed.
- 15M signing bonus
- 21/22 salaries guaranteed at signing
- 23 salary guaranteed first day of league year
2021 - 12.5M salary*, 5M bonus*
2022 - 12.5M salary*, 5M bonus*
2023 - 10M salary, 5M bonus*
2024 - 20M salary
I'd still do one more FT maneuver, but this seems reasonable if you want something longer term.
I just can't see Team LW taking this. They are going big game hunting...
Don't have time to dig more but honestly it's more about can you overpay for a position player and not have a QB on a rookie deal and win to me.
I just can't see Team LW taking this. They are going big game hunting...
The reality is big game hunting at DT above that band gets you to the Fletcher Cox, Aaron Donald area. I can see him getting a few more bucks guaranteed in years 3 & 4, and maybe some make believe dollars at the end.
I don't see the Giants applying the 2nd consecutive tender (19M, 125% of his salary this year), in a year with a cap reduction. It's a huge part of a smaller pie.
No system is gonna make him look better than PG's is, so he got lucky here, IMO.
Exactly, he's an anchor and you don't let those go
Because people here treat the cap and contracts with the intensity of a nuclear warhead.
You are in this business to keep guys like Williams. Again, I remind you all to go back to the Giants teams of the 2000s that were winning more often than not. Those teams were packed to the gills with over stuffed contracts and highly paid players. They still managed things year after year. All we do is worry about money around here. First time in years this team has a defense and some of you can't let these players walk fast enough.
Williams is going to get paid a mint from the Giants. Just friggin deal with it.
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He's the second best player on our defense and we have the cap room
Because people here treat the cap and contracts with the intensity of a nuclear warhead.
You are in this business to keep guys like Williams. Again, I remind you all to go back to the Giants teams of the 2000s that were winning more often than not. Those teams were packed to the gills with over stuffed contracts and highly paid players. They still managed things year after year. All we do is worry about money around here. First time in years this team has a defense and some of you can't let these players walk fast enough.
Williams is going to get paid a mint from the Giants. Just friggin deal with it.
And because we made the “egregious” mistake of trading for him, we now have the option of franchising him again, IF NECESSARY..That’s why DG went after him at his age of 25 with solid years ahead of him: To either workout a long term contract and if necessary FT him until and when something is worked out. I was elated with the move when it happened, was not all that concerned with losing a 3rd and am even more elated now.
When you shake off the window dressing of numbers, Williams will probably get ~40-45M real guaranteed dollars, which after next offseason might get him into the top 30.
He's not getting paid like a top 15 player, where the numbers really shoot up.
Now you pay through the nose for a long term deal structured for cap relief(and remember, they couldn't reach a deal after last season when he was pretty meh) or you eat up a ton of the cap on one more franchise tag at an average of the top 5 at his position and you still have to try and sign him to a long term deal. Would still have made more sense to pay him after his meh last season than now if they were that convicted about his prospects.
Specious argument. Put some bones on it, at least.
Remember the impending Cowboys cap apocalypse (acapalypse - hey, did I make that up)? Yeah, me, too.
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pay them more. Thats how you build a team.
Specious argument. Put some bones on it, at least.
Why, no one else here does.
Summary: optimizing roster management by letting go your high-performing vets has less of a benefit/risk ratio than simply keeping your players.
A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.
And this from guys who have seemingly been Giant fans for years, and have lost their minds because of a 4-game winning streak.
Keep this in mind, Leonard Williams is not signed yet because Gettleman & Front Office doesn't subscribe to your thinking.
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pay them more. Thats how you build a team.
Specious argument. Put some bones on it, at least.
What kind of bones are you looking for?
I read this as you being facetious, yes?
Now you pay through the nose for a long term deal structured for cap relief(and remember, they couldn't reach a deal after last season when he was pretty meh) or you eat up a ton of the cap on one more franchise tag at an average of the top 5 at his position and you still have to try and sign him to a long term deal. Would still have made more sense to pay him after his meh last season than now if they were that convicted about his prospects.
Ah yes, the Jets decided he was expendable...
How’s that working out for them? Do you EVER think before posting your nonsense? The Jets? Why should we give a damn about their decision making?
Seems like a fairly stupid and arrogant way to exist on a message board.
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In comment 15073540 PatersonPlank said:
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pay them more. Thats how you build a team.
Specious argument. Put some bones on it, at least.
What kind of bones are you looking for?
Plenty have added the bones, intelligently, including in this thread.
A) I won't throw the first stone against a poster, not my style, I will throw them back at people that throw them at me
B) Typical response from you, the % of your posts that are insulting people vs. actually trying to benefit a discussion is laughable
C) Clearly you've been muzzled / neutered because you would never change on your own
Again, I feel bad for you. Living inside your head is probably the most unpleasant place to be of all.
And this from guys who have seemingly been Giant fans for years, and have lost their minds because of a 4-game winning streak.
Keep this in mind, Leonard Williams is not signed yet because Gettleman & Front Office doesn't subscribe to your thinking.
Have to talk in ways they understand.
Lotsa Cap
Good Cap (Abramsian)
Cap Hell
To translate here, is LW good cap? Y/N? Y!!
This isn't Madden. People are hilarious. You act like you are professional capologists. (I invent words.) You set up ab imaginary deal and put up a big red line in the proverbial sand and proclaim, a penny more and I let him walk. I am laughing at you.
We have been the worst team in football for 3 years and you guys want to run the players out of town that are bringing us back from the ledge because you have decided you are some kind of cap guru. I think some of you are so used to being miserable that it has become your comfortable.
We don't have to worry about this today.
Today it is December 9th.
We are playing meaningful games.
We appear to be ascending as a team.
Let's keep the team together, if only in our heads.
For a few minutes at least?
FFS.
You are the same arrogant jackass that spent several months referring to posters as "Luddites" because they didn't buy your line of bullshit on analytics.
Is there an off setting on your troll switch? Even the castrated version of you is very unpleasant. I guess that's the only way you've ever surprised me.
Byeeeeee
Still no victor.
Its like watching Butterbean vs Bob Sapp.
Entertaining for a few seconds, but basically, nothing more than 2 old guys two guys breathing heavy and clinching.
You guys dislike each other.
Thinks the other is an asshole.
Both incapable of letting it go.
All of us get it.
Do the two of you?
Is it because you are so arrogant that you think my main reason for posting is to go after you??
With each passing week where you try to work in posts about analytics, two things become increasingly obvious.
1) Your need to inject analytics into discussions - even where they don't apply is borderlining on an obsession
2) The take that the Giants have their heads up their asses regarding analytics is becoming more and more a figment of your imagination.
And if you think I'm neutered - you might want it to stay that way - I've talked to a few teams who have been approached by a jackass peddling Madden simulations as "analytics". And by George, you really don't want me to go there.
Maybe think about how noble your crusade to protect the board and the Giants is when this is how you exist.
Still no victor.
Its like watching Butterbean vs Bob Sapp.
Entertaining for a few seconds, but basically, nothing more than 2 old guys two guys breathing heavy and clinching.
You guys dislike each other.
Thinks the other is an asshole.
Both incapable of letting it go.
All of us get it.
Do the two of you?
Look, I've been perfectly pleasant on this thread and he just came to stir up shit.
Oblivious.
Is it because you are so arrogant that you think my main reason for posting is to go after you??
With each passing week where you try to work in posts about analytics, two things become increasingly obvious.
1) Your need to inject analytics into discussions - even where they don't apply is borderlining on an obsession
2) The take that the Giants have their heads up their asses regarding analytics is becoming more and more a figment of your imagination.
And if you think I'm neutered - you might want it to stay that way - I've talked to a few teams who have been approached by a jackass peddling Madden simulations as "analytics". And by George, you really don't want me to go there.
Excuse me? This sounds like a threat? You know what you are doing.
I have talked to teams but you know very little about me other than that and I'm not pedaling anything, not even close to my primary job. And I work with a lot of different industries about predicting stuff so yeah. Sorry one of my many forays into a non-core business of mine in predictive analytics is unimpressive to you.
Sounds like the truth of peddling Madden simulations hits a little too close to home. I hope it isn't you, because the feedback isn't positive.
Lest you go and threaten slander again to the mods.
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Round nine hundred seventy two.
Still no victor.
Its like watching Butterbean vs Bob Sapp.
Entertaining for a few seconds, but basically, nothing more than 2 old guys two guys breathing heavy and clinching.
You guys dislike each other.
Thinks the other is an asshole.
Both incapable of letting it go.
All of us get it.
Do the two of you?
Look, I've been perfectly pleasant on this thread and he just came to stir up shit.
Again.
It's old.
Not that either of you care, but I enjoy both of you. You both have meaningful things to say.
Let it go.
Ignore each other for all of us.
Please?
Talk to him. He's like many years my senior and he can keep taking shots at me and I'm expected to not respond when he can't even remotely control himself?
I've been on this thread to talk football, he came on just to insult me, do you not see the difference there?
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In comment 15073565 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 15073540 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
pay them more. Thats how you build a team.
Specious argument. Put some bones on it, at least.
What kind of bones are you looking for?
Plenty have added the bones, intelligently, including in this thread.
Agreed - that's why I was curious what you were looking for.
This isn't Madden. People are hilarious. You act like you are professional capologists. (I invent words.) You set up ab imaginary deal and put up a big red line in the proverbial sand and proclaim, a penny more and I let him walk. I am laughing at you.
We have been the worst team in football for 3 years and you guys want to run the players out of town that are bringing us back from the ledge because you have decided you are some kind of cap guru. I think some of you are so used to being miserable that it has become your comfortable.
We don't have to worry about this today.
Today it is December 9th.
We are playing meaningful games.
We appear to be ascending as a team.
Let's keep the team together, if only in our heads.
For a few minutes at least?
FFS.
Join any thread you want or not.
Oblivious.
You're not very intelligent or interesting.Remember when you and Stan said it was a horrible investment at $3K 😂🤣😂🤣🤣🤣
I'm sure you are smart enough to appreciate the exercise of building a competitive team within the confines of a hard cap.
So it seems like a reasonable debate with LW on how to pay this "good player" a price that is beneficial to both player and team.
True?
Not so much what amount but when to make the deal and how to structure it
The way to lower risk and increase whatever leverage they may possibly have for the NYG is to sign as late as possible but before FA and the draft so they have replacement optionality
Since they have to deliver guaranteed dollars in any circumstances, another transition tag in return for another year into the prime of a guy who maybe overpricing himself maybe a undesirable but acceptable tradeoff allowing two restocking seasons to keep a dominant DL.
When the event takes place for LW and for the NYG is not something we discuss that often. And for all we know, the negotiations might be very healthy. Starting last year they may have said: " We want to pay you like an elite DL but we need to see it first. Lets give you a shot to show us (and the NFL)"
Or they could be stubborn, factless, petty and difficult conversation such that we like the player but not the agent/family dynamics that come with it.
Beats me. Notice both sides have been good at keeping relatively silent in the media. So far. Unusually so. imo.
One more tag year may be the optimal thing indeed, especially if he's asking ridiculous money.
1) 2021 is NFL year 7 for Williams, how many defensive lineman entering year 8 hit top of market long term dollars?
2) The 1.25x accelerator gets his tender to 19M. This is fruit of calculations and agreements assuming a rising cap. 19M against a 175M cap isn’t part of the projection.
3) Top tackles not named Donald get 40M guaranteed at signing in exchange for little to no money guaranteed after 2 years. Years 3&4 are fixed price future options. Why would the Giants pay 19M for 1, when 40M gets you 2 and your choice of 3 & 4?