LW is getting there but he's certainly benefiting from terrific pass coverage and schemes.
So I'm still reluctant paying a guy LW top market dollar -in his contract year - when I see what Graham is producing with this entire defense at every level.
Dude, Im convinced youre either just fucking nuts or truly a Skins fan.
Literally every time Wilson dropped back LW was caving in his side of the line and whenever they ran the ball, he was doing the same thing as well as sealing off his edge.
LW is Richard Seymour+ at this point. 26 and destroying schemes.
But maybe THIS coach, and the TEAM he is creating can change an individual's mental state and bring out the best.
Winning solves a lot of problems. I hope he has a long and productive future as a Giant! He certainly looks like he is having fun. So are WE!
No offense, but dumb comment. Effort was always there and he plays 2 ways. Fucking starting to kick some ass.
No offense taken, but my comment was referring more as to when he was a Jet, where is effort was sometimes questioned.
Never heard that about him as a Jet. He was also on a swamped DLine with Wilkerson, Richardson all of which played the same position for the most part.
Dude, Im convinced youre either just fucking nuts or truly a Skins fan.
Literally every time Wilson dropped back LW was caving in his side of the line and whenever they ran the ball, he was doing the same thing as well as sealing off his edge.
LW is Richard Seymour+ at this point. 26 and destroying schemes.
Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
1) I still think the trade, given when it happened and what we gave up was stupid. I would rather have made a play for him in the off season, which would have cost less than the tag we gave him or the deal he is likely to get.
2) I still do not believe he is worth $18-20M, like he is looking for. But, this was the type of game the Jets were looking for. And the type of game, against this competition and this time of year with what's at stake, that would make a contract with him more palatable.
3) There is no denying, this could be his signature game as a player. He has arrived and I admit, it will be hard to ignore him or let him walk after a game like this with the rest of the season he's had.
This game really changed my entire outlook of the team this year. It came close to doing the same for Williams. I always said I liked him and thought he was a good player. This was the type of next level game that establishes him, with the rest of the his season to date as the base.
RE: Just because something has a positive outcome...
...doesn't mean it was a good decision. I realize that some people have a problem with this concept.
okay so then if he made what group think says was a good decision but it had a negative outcome... would you still say it was a good decision? Something tells me that this is a heads I win, tails you lose thing Gary.
What I really think is going on here is someone is not admitting he was wrong about something.
RE: RE: There's a lot of people here that are stuck in football
Having elite edge rushers isn't even close to necessary anymore. These QBs are too mobile. It's realy simple, get decent rush across the line and mush rush the QB, especially these shorter mobile guys If you get really good interior pressure its a big plus and stay disciplined on the line. This was a fucking marvel to watch today. Cover the back end, And these guys are so fucking disciplined, its a wonder to see. We'll see the same exact game plan next week.
We don't agree on a lot, but I am with you on this. PRBC works if you have the back-end talent to cover. And right now we do...This is precisely how Belichick has coached New England the last decade.
Find under-valued assets like Van Noy and Ninkovitch, have tough LBs, and have good cover guys.
Did you lose faith we were going to win? I certainly did, or at least was 50/50. Man it's scary as shit to watch, but we stayed super disciplined and they just didn't make the plays with their WRs and QB. Wild to think. The QB isn't as good next week, but the WRs are much better. I know I'll get roasted for it, but these guys coming up don't drop the ball like the Seahawks do. Our defensive talent is legit though. God damn what a game. Was really impressed how much we ran the ball today and beat them up front offensively. Should be better this week even. Expect a little higher scoring game on both ends against Cards. Big dick Judge laying pipe on the NFL. This is just fucking awesome to watch. I'm really thinking we may have the best coach in NFL. Looooooove it.
RE: RE: Just because something has a positive outcome...
...doesn't mean it was a good decision. I realize that some people have a problem with this concept.
okay so then if he made what group think says was a good decision but it had a negative outcome... would you still say it was a good decision? Something tells me that this is a heads I win, tails you lose thing Gary.
What I really think is going on here is someone is not admitting he was wrong about something.
Yes, it is possible for a good decision to turn out bad and vice versa. It's no different in games with play calling. Sometimes you call the right play and it doesn't work. Sometimes you make the wrong call and you execute.
It's possible that the trade was not smart, given where our team was last year, where the Jets were, the season Williams was having for them, and the prospects of him leaving via FA. His price tag, if left on the Jets, would have been much lower, as it would have been perceived as more of a flyer.
I love the way he is playing this year. We have seen this kind of play from MAYBE once before in 2016 (I think). This game probably ensured he will get a big payday. Is he worth $18M+? I'm still not convinced. BUT...but, I wouldn't feel terrible giving it to him if that's what they think it takes. This game elevated his status, in my opinion given the time of year, the opponent, and what is at stake. I really want to keep both him and Tomlinson. Perhaps with the OL play, it is more possible, as they likely don't need a high priced OL via FA.
At this point you've got to give Coach Chaos credit.
All of the Defensive Linemen seem to be playing up to their ability, and good team ball. There isn't much dropoff when Hill & Austin Johnson play. I love the urgency and every down effort up front. There are a lot of resources invested there, and they are getting a good return.
RE: RE: RE: There's a lot of people here that are stuck in football
Having elite edge rushers isn't even close to necessary anymore. These QBs are too mobile. It's realy simple, get decent rush across the line and mush rush the QB, especially these shorter mobile guys If you get really good interior pressure its a big plus and stay disciplined on the line. This was a fucking marvel to watch today. Cover the back end, And these guys are so fucking disciplined, its a wonder to see. We'll see the same exact game plan next week.
We don't agree on a lot, but I am with you on this. PRBC works if you have the back-end talent to cover. And right now we do...This is precisely how Belichick has coached New England the last decade.
Find under-valued assets like Van Noy and Ninkovitch, have tough LBs, and have good cover guys.
Did you lose faith we were going to win? I certainly did, or at least was 50/50. Man it's scary as shit to watch, but we stayed super disciplined and they just didn't make the plays with their WRs and QB. Wild to think. The QB isn't as good next week, but the WRs are much better. I know I'll get roasted for it, but these guys coming up don't drop the ball like the Seahawks do. Our defensive talent is legit though. God damn what a game. Was really impressed how much we ran the ball today and beat them up front offensively. Should be better this week even. Expect a little higher scoring game on both ends against Cards. Big dick Judge laying pipe on the NFL. This is just fucking awesome to watch. I'm really thinking we may have the best coach in NFL. Looooooove it.
The defense was playing so good that I still felt that they were going to hold up in the end. Definitely a mindset change but for me but they are just being coached so well and playing with discipline that I felt they could make the plays.
Dude, Im convinced youre either just fucking nuts or truly a Skins fan.
Literally every time Wilson dropped back LW was caving in his side of the line and whenever they ran the ball, he was doing the same thing as well as sealing off his edge.
LW is Richard Seymour+ at this point. 26 and destroying schemes.
Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
Such a dumb take. So is Aaron Donald not worth it because Jalen Ramsey is playing corner?
It’s a team game. No single player is going to dominate without the other pieces working.
RE: RE: RE: RE: There is a lot of chicken and egg here...
Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
Such a dumb take. So is Aaron Donald not worth it because Jalen Ramsey is playing corner?
It’s a team game. No single player is going to dominate without the other pieces working.
That's the comparison you want to make here? Aaron Donald? A guy currently putting together a resume as one of the greatest DTs of all time...?
I mean, I get your point to a degree but this is the wrong way to do it.
Look, I get it. LW is playing well, but I think a lot of this is a reflection of the back four and their stellar play...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: There is a lot of chicken and egg here...
Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
Such a dumb take. So is Aaron Donald not worth it because Jalen Ramsey is playing corner?
It’s a team game. No single player is going to dominate without the other pieces working.
That's the comparison you want to make here? Aaron Donald? A guy currently putting together a resume as one of the greatest DTs of all time...?
I mean, I get your point to a degree but this is the wrong way to do it.
Look, I get it. LW is playing well, but I think a lot of this is a reflection of the back four and their stellar play...
LW was a good player last year with less talent around him and a shit coaching staff. What you’re seeing now is what his potential is with a little help.
He’s been saddled with trash around him his entire career until this year.
Did you lose faith we were going to win? I certainly did, or at least was 50/50. Man it's scary as shit to watch, but we stayed super disciplined and they just didn't make the plays with their WRs and QB. Wild to think. The QB isn't as good next week, but the WRs are much better. I know I'll get roasted for it, but these guys coming up don't drop the ball like the Seahawks do. Our defensive talent is legit though. God damn what a game. Was really impressed how much we ran the ball today and beat them up front offensively. Should be better this week even. Expect a little higher scoring game on both ends against Cards. Big dick Judge laying pipe on the NFL. This is just fucking awesome to watch. I'm really thinking we may have the best coach in NFL. Looooooove it.
Once Wilson crossed midfield with 2 TO, first down, and a 1:13 , I thought it was going to be a classic Russell Wilson rabbit-out-of-hat scenario. That's what he does. I've seen it too many times and figured we were about to get another dose...
Thankfully the "12th Man" wasn't there today and thank the Football Gods for letting the better team win today.
I was just waiting for some bullsh-t flag on that 4th down to bail out Wilson, too, btw...
But the trade remains the worst I can remember in the history of the team. The criticism of the trade never had a thing to with LW as a player. And as Matt points out above, we have overpaid for LW and with his continued success we will almost certainly continue to have to overpay for LW. But, there’s people who see this and then there’s people who see something else. I will say LW is playing much better than I thought he was capable. He’s having a great season. And yes, I would sign him but you have to remember the NFL is as much about resource allocation as it is about talented evaluation.
Anyway, LW was a fucking beast today and I loved watching the game!
But the trade remains the worst I can remember in the history of the team. The criticism of the trade never had a thing to with LW as a player. And as Matt points out above, we have overpaid for LW and with his continued success we will almost certainly continue to have to overpay for LW. But, there’s people who see this and then there’s people who see something else. I will say LW is playing much better than I thought he was capable. He’s having a great season. And yes, I would sign him but you have to remember the NFL is as much about resource allocation as it is about talented evaluation.
Anyway, LW was a fucking beast today and I loved watching the game!
Dumb. One of the worst you can remember? GTFOH. Such a dumb hot take.
I found the trade strange at the time, but looks like it has worked out thus far. I hope we can sign him.
For the crowd that thinks we could have signed him as a FA, I don't think that was a slam dunk or likely at all. We've been a losing organization, just jettisoned basically the whole roster in 2 years, starting with our 4th coach in 6 years, and playing in a city that has skewered him for not getting enough sacks. I don't think we we would've an attractive option for him.
and the Jets retained him and he continued to play the way was playing for them, what do you think he would have gotten on the FA market? Is 3 years, $30M way off, with some guaranteed money?
I just think they could have had him cheaper than what he is seeking now. The Giants are basically stuck after this game. If he finished the season strong, they basically can't let him walk because he will be the first legitimate FA player they've had to retain in a long time, outside OBJ. On the other hand, cap-wise they may regret it in a year or two when they have no room to maneuver.
Just pay him his worth and be done with it. He’s as sure a thing as possible. Good teams pay good players.
djm - My worry is him not being a sure thing. This season is out of line for him. Even his previous best season in 2016 wasn't this good. So, how do you bet on him doing it again, 3 or 4 more times at a very premium price?
Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
(...) what do you think he would have gotten on the FA market? Is 3 years, $30M way off (...)
Since you asked... yes, it is. Jonathan Hankins got $10 million per three years ago, and he was a third round pick who couldn't get any pass rush at all (with Snacks playing at a pro bowl level next to him).
The notion that the Giants would have automatically been able to sign Williams and do so cheaply is severely misguided. Someone would have seen the value and paid him decently. The people who make these decisions do it professionally, they don't just check in once a week to offer a quick opinion...
(...) what do you think he would have gotten on the FA market? Is 3 years, $30M way off (...)
Since you asked... yes, it is. Jonathan Hankins got $10 million per three years ago, and he was a third round pick who couldn't get any pass rush at all (with Snacks playing at a pro bowl level next to him).
The notion that the Giants would have automatically been able to sign Williams and do so cheaply is severely misguided. Someone would have seen the value and paid him decently. The people who make these decisions do it professionally, they don't just check in once a week to offer a quick opinion...
And, in my scenario, Williams would have been a FA DL coming off a season with 0 sacks and about 30 tackles. That isn't big money territory.
Also, Hankins became a FA after having 3 sacks and 33 tackles. He also had a career high 7 sacks just 2 seasons before that. At that point in his career, he was not that different than Williams, production wise.
of the trade was to make sure the Giants wouldn’t have to bid against other teams in FA. What could have happened is that another team could have been able to offer him more money than the Giants could, there’s no guarantee they could have simply just signed him in FA as many are suggesting. As Gettlemen said, ‘The juice was worth the squeeze.’ It’s not hard to understand, the team needed an infusion of talent on the defense and they saw the opportunity to add him.The likelihood a 3rd-rounder would have the impact he is right now is much smaller.
Also, I recall just this past offseason someone still saying the Eli trade was bad..after two Superbowl MVPs against the greatest dynasty this league has ever seen. No trade is bad if it directly results in two Super Bowl wins.
RE: RE: RE: Had the Giants not traded for Williams
(...) Hankins (...) At that point in his career, he was not that different than Williams (...)
Mr. Leonard - 6'5, 4.97 40m dash
Hankins - 6'3, 5.31 40m dash
There's a reason Williams was considered the second best player in the draft when he came out. And he was all of 25 during free agency.
Yes, there is a reason he was considered so highly in the draft. But, he and Hankins still had similar production. There is a reason the Jets were willing to trade someone once considered so highly in the draft. The player we are seeing is who they expected to get; it is not the player they received for most of his time there.
Not at the time of the trade, not when sticking him with the tag, and not when looking at his impending FA and/or potential tag again. Most, if not all, liked Williams as an interesting player when we got him and felt he played better for us last year than he was playing with the Jets. I think they made the right call with the tag this year because it gave them the chance to really evaluate him before committing fully. I don't think anyone expected play at this level, which makes it a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
is largely the same player he's always been. He was on a dysfunctional poorly coached D last year and - surprise surprise - he didn't have any stats.
It kills me that people think he had some sort of epiphany rather than understand he's playing within a great D now.
Leonard Williams was an outstanding player for the Jets, he was an outstanding player last year and he is again, this year.
LW was "outstanding" for the Jets? That's quite a loose definition of outstanding...
If the Jets are so poorly coached team - which is probably true - why is Quinnen Williams killing it for the Jets this year? And without LW as his partner...
it's a good thing that DG and the Giants saw this talent and potential in Williams while others did not. We got him while others were sleeping. Worrying about the contract at this point seems ridiculous to me. He's going to get paid and he's worth every penny.
Giving up ONLY a 3rd round pick for a guy who is playing like a top 5 DL will seem like a prescient move by Gettleman. Guy is playing lights out, just add a guy like Dupree or a stud ER in the draft, sign Leo, and this can be a top 5 NFL defense. Giants football is back!
....the question now is he worth the big contract? The idea was to sign and trade that year, and maybe get a good deal. But that didn't happen....still.............
He's been very durable, hardly ever misses a game.
What are the terms of a new deal? How does it work with our current salary cap.
In the end, the trade was a good one........whatever way it goes. The comp pick will be significant at this point, right?
value in the conversation and just focus on LW the player, which I think most people thought very highly of from the moment he was traded for.
I think that I don't see talked about enough in this whole LW thing is if the team was SO sure about him, why didn't he get locked up prior to this season? It seems like the team was as skeptical of him as a player as some posters were so to bring out the "I told you so's" when the same team that gave up two draft picks didn't get a long term commitment from him, they didn't exactly look prepared on it at all. And I think that's what people's problem is. Rarely do you see a player get traded and not sign a long term deal after picks are surrendered.
That's what some people seem to fail to realize in this. The story and timer on if this was a good deal starts when we ink him to the long term deal. Giving up picks to trade for a player never should or is about one year on a franchise tender. The concern is that the Giants didn't seem to have a plan with the player that reflected his perspective demands when they traded for him. His demands could very well again be beyond what his production dictated (as they were last year) and some players are just like that.
Once he is signed to a long term deal and we think we are at least getting fair value based on his production I am 100% willing to say the trade looks smarter than originally critiqued. And I think people are confused because of how weird it is to give up picks with a 1-7 team for a player in a contract year the burden of proof was high to show it was a smart move. Just because people saw a difficult contract situation and a player not performing up to the money they wanted meant that can say it was definitively a bad trade doesn't mean he can have a good season and it means it's automatically a good trade. Draft picks are valuable on a 3-4 year salary horizon and if he ends up an overpaid player on a team that is mediocre or bad, this great season he's having doesn't mean that much. Great players can still be bad value, I don't think some people really reflect they understand that concept.
Good thoughts. Team LW have to feel they are in the pole position going into the offseason in terms of first ask.
I'd still let Team LW walk and say thanks for a great year. Just don't feel comfortable with paying for what looks like - finally - a real breakthrough year. If we decide to keep him, I'd FT one more time...
the "why didn't he sign long term" argument is overflowing w hypocrasy
the NYG have been clear from day 1 they wanted to keep LW but that doesn't mean you hand him or any player a blank check. It's a salary negotiation where it takes BOTH SIDES to form an agreement.
I think I have whiplash from the abrupt shift in opinion from the "leonard williams is overpaid" crew. Just a few weeks ago he wasn't worth the $16m tag now the NYG made a mistake by not paying him more?
Should they have paid him whatever he wanted and ignored their option to simply tag him and pay $16m this year?
Should they ignore that option again next year if LW says he wants Aaron Donald money?
I'm actually pointing out the hypocrisy in people saying "See DG was smart he knew he was going to be this player!" if he did actually know that he would have signed him long term is my point.
The Giants played it like this with the FT because they were skeptical too and there is no other way to slice it. Which leads to the other relevant point of what were they expecting when they traded for him? What was their plan?
He was traded for during a losing season; he seemingly played well last season; the team didn't pursue a DT in free agency or draft; and he was tagged (not transitional but franchise) allowing for additional months to sort out a contract, and most importantly he fits the vision of what this GM is trying to build here.
What is the issue because his price tag isn't going down?
Quote:
But maybe THIS coach, and the TEAM he is creating can change an individual's mental state and bring out the best.
Winning solves a lot of problems. I hope he has a long and productive future as a Giant! He certainly looks like he is having fun. So are WE!
No offense, but dumb comment. Effort was always there and he plays 2 ways. Fucking starting to kick some ass.
No offense taken, but my comment was referring more as to when he was a Jet, where is effort was sometimes questioned.
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but he needs a nice holiday bonus before any player.
Ugggggghhhhhh....unbearable
Careful, you’ll get suspended again
So I'm still reluctant paying a guy LW top market dollar -in his contract year - when I see what Graham is producing with this entire defense at every level.
Dude, Im convinced youre either just fucking nuts or truly a Skins fan.
Literally every time Wilson dropped back LW was caving in his side of the line and whenever they ran the ball, he was doing the same thing as well as sealing off his edge.
LW is Richard Seymour+ at this point. 26 and destroying schemes.
Quote:
In comment 15069200 LBH15 said:
Quote:
but he needs a nice holiday bonus before any player.
Ugggggghhhhhh....unbearable
Careful, you’ll get suspended again
I got suspended...took my time off and am back. You got banned and came back under a different name Googs.
Loser personified.
Quote:
In comment 15068914 PA Aggie said:
Quote:
But maybe THIS coach, and the TEAM he is creating can change an individual's mental state and bring out the best.
Winning solves a lot of problems. I hope he has a long and productive future as a Giant! He certainly looks like he is having fun. So are WE!
No offense, but dumb comment. Effort was always there and he plays 2 ways. Fucking starting to kick some ass.
No offense taken, but my comment was referring more as to when he was a Jet, where is effort was sometimes questioned.
Never heard that about him as a Jet. He was also on a swamped DLine with Wilkerson, Richardson all of which played the same position for the most part.
At least until the next siuspension.
Dude, Im convinced youre either just fucking nuts or truly a Skins fan.
Literally every time Wilson dropped back LW was caving in his side of the line and whenever they ran the ball, he was doing the same thing as well as sealing off his edge.
LW is Richard Seymour+ at this point. 26 and destroying schemes.
Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
2) I still do not believe he is worth $18-20M, like he is looking for. But, this was the type of game the Jets were looking for. And the type of game, against this competition and this time of year with what's at stake, that would make a contract with him more palatable.
3) There is no denying, this could be his signature game as a player. He has arrived and I admit, it will be hard to ignore him or let him walk after a game like this with the rest of the season he's had.
okay so then if he made what group think says was a good decision but it had a negative outcome... would you still say it was a good decision? Something tells me that this is a heads I win, tails you lose thing Gary.
What I really think is going on here is someone is not admitting he was wrong about something.
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circa our super bowl runs.
Having elite edge rushers isn't even close to necessary anymore. These QBs are too mobile. It's realy simple, get decent rush across the line and mush rush the QB, especially these shorter mobile guys If you get really good interior pressure its a big plus and stay disciplined on the line. This was a fucking marvel to watch today. Cover the back end, And these guys are so fucking disciplined, its a wonder to see. We'll see the same exact game plan next week.
We don't agree on a lot, but I am with you on this. PRBC works if you have the back-end talent to cover. And right now we do...This is precisely how Belichick has coached New England the last decade.
Find under-valued assets like Van Noy and Ninkovitch, have tough LBs, and have good cover guys.
Did you lose faith we were going to win? I certainly did, or at least was 50/50. Man it's scary as shit to watch, but we stayed super disciplined and they just didn't make the plays with their WRs and QB. Wild to think. The QB isn't as good next week, but the WRs are much better. I know I'll get roasted for it, but these guys coming up don't drop the ball like the Seahawks do. Our defensive talent is legit though. God damn what a game. Was really impressed how much we ran the ball today and beat them up front offensively. Should be better this week even. Expect a little higher scoring game on both ends against Cards. Big dick Judge laying pipe on the NFL. This is just fucking awesome to watch. I'm really thinking we may have the best coach in NFL. Looooooove it.
Quote:
...doesn't mean it was a good decision. I realize that some people have a problem with this concept.
okay so then if he made what group think says was a good decision but it had a negative outcome... would you still say it was a good decision? Something tells me that this is a heads I win, tails you lose thing Gary.
What I really think is going on here is someone is not admitting he was wrong about something.
It's possible that the trade was not smart, given where our team was last year, where the Jets were, the season Williams was having for them, and the prospects of him leaving via FA. His price tag, if left on the Jets, would have been much lower, as it would have been perceived as more of a flyer.
I love the way he is playing this year. We have seen this kind of play from MAYBE once before in 2016 (I think). This game probably ensured he will get a big payday. Is he worth $18M+? I'm still not convinced. BUT...but, I wouldn't feel terrible giving it to him if that's what they think it takes. This game elevated his status, in my opinion given the time of year, the opponent, and what is at stake. I really want to keep both him and Tomlinson. Perhaps with the OL play, it is more possible, as they likely don't need a high priced OL via FA.
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In comment 15069202 Zeke's Alibi said:
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circa our super bowl runs.
Having elite edge rushers isn't even close to necessary anymore. These QBs are too mobile. It's realy simple, get decent rush across the line and mush rush the QB, especially these shorter mobile guys If you get really good interior pressure its a big plus and stay disciplined on the line. This was a fucking marvel to watch today. Cover the back end, And these guys are so fucking disciplined, its a wonder to see. We'll see the same exact game plan next week.
We don't agree on a lot, but I am with you on this. PRBC works if you have the back-end talent to cover. And right now we do...This is precisely how Belichick has coached New England the last decade.
Find under-valued assets like Van Noy and Ninkovitch, have tough LBs, and have good cover guys.
Did you lose faith we were going to win? I certainly did, or at least was 50/50. Man it's scary as shit to watch, but we stayed super disciplined and they just didn't make the plays with their WRs and QB. Wild to think. The QB isn't as good next week, but the WRs are much better. I know I'll get roasted for it, but these guys coming up don't drop the ball like the Seahawks do. Our defensive talent is legit though. God damn what a game. Was really impressed how much we ran the ball today and beat them up front offensively. Should be better this week even. Expect a little higher scoring game on both ends against Cards. Big dick Judge laying pipe on the NFL. This is just fucking awesome to watch. I'm really thinking we may have the best coach in NFL. Looooooove it.
The defense was playing so good that I still felt that they were going to hold up in the end. Definitely a mindset change but for me but they are just being coached so well and playing with discipline that I felt they could make the plays.
This is definitely the new excuse for miserable posters who somehow don’t like it when DG and the NYG are doing good things.
This is definitely the new excuse for miserable posters who somehow don’t like it when DG and the NYG are doing good things.
Its perfect. Now any decision that you don't like, which turns out to be correct and makes you wrong, can be easily talked away.
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Dude, Im convinced youre either just fucking nuts or truly a Skins fan.
Literally every time Wilson dropped back LW was caving in his side of the line and whenever they ran the ball, he was doing the same thing as well as sealing off his edge.
LW is Richard Seymour+ at this point. 26 and destroying schemes.
Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
Such a dumb take. So is Aaron Donald not worth it because Jalen Ramsey is playing corner?
It’s a team game. No single player is going to dominate without the other pieces working.
Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
Such a dumb take. So is Aaron Donald not worth it because Jalen Ramsey is playing corner?
It’s a team game. No single player is going to dominate without the other pieces working.
That's the comparison you want to make here? Aaron Donald? A guy currently putting together a resume as one of the greatest DTs of all time...?
I mean, I get your point to a degree but this is the wrong way to do it.
Look, I get it. LW is playing well, but I think a lot of this is a reflection of the back four and their stellar play...
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Just disagree. We have arguably the best cover corner in the NFL and a rover safety who is playing lights out. I see some great coverage allowing the DL the time to get there. And good for LW for getting there...and the scheming drawn up by Graham.
Such a dumb take. So is Aaron Donald not worth it because Jalen Ramsey is playing corner?
It’s a team game. No single player is going to dominate without the other pieces working.
That's the comparison you want to make here? Aaron Donald? A guy currently putting together a resume as one of the greatest DTs of all time...?
I mean, I get your point to a degree but this is the wrong way to do it.
Look, I get it. LW is playing well, but I think a lot of this is a reflection of the back four and their stellar play...
LW was a good player last year with less talent around him and a shit coaching staff. What you’re seeing now is what his potential is with a little help.
He’s been saddled with trash around him his entire career until this year.
Thanks jets!
Did you lose faith we were going to win? I certainly did, or at least was 50/50. Man it's scary as shit to watch, but we stayed super disciplined and they just didn't make the plays with their WRs and QB. Wild to think. The QB isn't as good next week, but the WRs are much better. I know I'll get roasted for it, but these guys coming up don't drop the ball like the Seahawks do. Our defensive talent is legit though. God damn what a game. Was really impressed how much we ran the ball today and beat them up front offensively. Should be better this week even. Expect a little higher scoring game on both ends against Cards. Big dick Judge laying pipe on the NFL. This is just fucking awesome to watch. I'm really thinking we may have the best coach in NFL. Looooooove it.
Once Wilson crossed midfield with 2 TO, first down, and a 1:13 , I thought it was going to be a classic Russell Wilson rabbit-out-of-hat scenario. That's what he does. I've seen it too many times and figured we were about to get another dose...
Thankfully the "12th Man" wasn't there today and thank the Football Gods for letting the better team win today.
I was just waiting for some bullsh-t flag on that 4th down to bail out Wilson, too, btw...
Anyway, LW was a fucking beast today and I loved watching the game!
Anyway, LW was a fucking beast today and I loved watching the game!
Dumb. One of the worst you can remember? GTFOH. Such a dumb hot take.
For the crowd that thinks we could have signed him as a FA, I don't think that was a slam dunk or likely at all. We've been a losing organization, just jettisoned basically the whole roster in 2 years, starting with our 4th coach in 6 years, and playing in a city that has skewered him for not getting enough sacks. I don't think we we would've an attractive option for him.
I just think they could have had him cheaper than what he is seeking now. The Giants are basically stuck after this game. If he finished the season strong, they basically can't let him walk because he will be the first legitimate FA player they've had to retain in a long time, outside OBJ. On the other hand, cap-wise they may regret it in a year or two when they have no room to maneuver.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Since you asked... yes, it is. Jonathan Hankins got $10 million per three years ago, and he was a third round pick who couldn't get any pass rush at all (with Snacks playing at a pro bowl level next to him).
The notion that the Giants would have automatically been able to sign Williams and do so cheaply is severely misguided. Someone would have seen the value and paid him decently. The people who make these decisions do it professionally, they don't just check in once a week to offer a quick opinion...
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(...) what do you think he would have gotten on the FA market? Is 3 years, $30M way off (...)
Since you asked... yes, it is. Jonathan Hankins got $10 million per three years ago, and he was a third round pick who couldn't get any pass rush at all (with Snacks playing at a pro bowl level next to him).
The notion that the Giants would have automatically been able to sign Williams and do so cheaply is severely misguided. Someone would have seen the value and paid him decently. The people who make these decisions do it professionally, they don't just check in once a week to offer a quick opinion...
Also, Hankins became a FA after having 3 sacks and 33 tackles. He also had a career high 7 sacks just 2 seasons before that. At that point in his career, he was not that different than Williams, production wise.
Also, I recall just this past offseason someone still saying the Eli trade was bad..after two Superbowl MVPs against the greatest dynasty this league has ever seen. No trade is bad if it directly results in two Super Bowl wins.
Mr. Leonard - 6'5, 4.97 40m dash
Hankins - 6'3, 5.31 40m dash
There's a reason Williams was considered the second best player in the draft when he came out. And he was all of 25 during free agency.
He might win Defensive Player of the Week after today
His play has not changed at all, he is just getting sack numbers. He has always been a guy who gets pressure and can play the run
Watch the game and see who get the double team - he does, teams don’t run at him, he makes others better.
He is 26, excellent player, well liked and plays every game. You sign him for 4 years and you get 27-30. He is the type of player you invest in
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(...) Hankins (...) At that point in his career, he was not that different than Williams (...)
Mr. Leonard - 6'5, 4.97 40m dash
Hankins - 6'3, 5.31 40m dash
There's a reason Williams was considered the second best player in the draft when he came out. And he was all of 25 during free agency.
The Giants are not good enough as a team to overcome giving him the big contract and him not continuing to play at a high level, because it will hinder their ability to add more FA. Now, if he plays like this for two or 3 more seasons, then it's a great deal. If he plays like last year or like he did, even at his best, with the Jets, then that deal kills them. That is where my resrvation comes from. A lot of you are asking the Giants to pay him like an elite player, which he never was before this year, and I'm not 100% sure he is right now. He is playing at a very high level, no doubt. But, is he Aaron Donald or even close? I don't think you can say that. Even if you believe he is, are you very confident you will be saying the same thing at this point next year?
Very good post here.
These break out moments for any player are always hard to measure going forward, especially when it's time to pay.
Can you count on the same productivity - after the break out performance - going forward? It's a really hard sell to me. I'd rather pay big dollars to the player who has demonstrated high level consistency because at least there is a pattern. That's not to say LW may not be ready to get into a enter that pattern, but it's a huge question mark.
So I'm still saying let LW walk and trust Graham's system going forward.
Which begs the question - what's more important going forward? Keeping LW? Or keeping Graham?
It kills me that people think he had some sort of epiphany rather than understand he's playing within a great D now.
Leonard Williams was an outstanding player for the Jets, he was an outstanding player last year and he is again, this year.
His play has not changed at all, he is just getting sack numbers. He has always been a guy who gets pressure and can play the run
Watch the game and see who get the double team - he does, teams don’t run at him, he makes others better.
He is 26, excellent player, well liked and plays every game. You sign him for 4 years and you get 27-30. He is the type of player you invest in
+1.
When something works, we are so quick to move on because of $$$. Keep this thing going - we are entering a window.
It kills me that people think he had some sort of epiphany rather than understand he's playing within a great D now.
Leonard Williams was an outstanding player for the Jets, he was an outstanding player last year and he is again, this year.
LW was "outstanding" for the Jets? That's quite a loose definition of outstanding...
If the Jets are so poorly coached team - which is probably true - why is Quinnen Williams killing it for the Jets this year? And without LW as his partner...
I am just happy we found Williams.
He's been very durable, hardly ever misses a game.
What are the terms of a new deal? How does it work with our current salary cap.
In the end, the trade was a good one........whatever way it goes. The comp pick will be significant at this point, right?
I think that I don't see talked about enough in this whole LW thing is if the team was SO sure about him, why didn't he get locked up prior to this season? It seems like the team was as skeptical of him as a player as some posters were so to bring out the "I told you so's" when the same team that gave up two draft picks didn't get a long term commitment from him, they didn't exactly look prepared on it at all. And I think that's what people's problem is. Rarely do you see a player get traded and not sign a long term deal after picks are surrendered.
That's what some people seem to fail to realize in this. The story and timer on if this was a good deal starts when we ink him to the long term deal. Giving up picks to trade for a player never should or is about one year on a franchise tender. The concern is that the Giants didn't seem to have a plan with the player that reflected his perspective demands when they traded for him. His demands could very well again be beyond what his production dictated (as they were last year) and some players are just like that.
Once he is signed to a long term deal and we think we are at least getting fair value based on his production I am 100% willing to say the trade looks smarter than originally critiqued. And I think people are confused because of how weird it is to give up picks with a 1-7 team for a player in a contract year the burden of proof was high to show it was a smart move. Just because people saw a difficult contract situation and a player not performing up to the money they wanted meant that can say it was definitively a bad trade doesn't mean he can have a good season and it means it's automatically a good trade. Draft picks are valuable on a 3-4 year salary horizon and if he ends up an overpaid player on a team that is mediocre or bad, this great season he's having doesn't mean that much. Great players can still be bad value, I don't think some people really reflect they understand that concept.
I'd still let Team LW walk and say thanks for a great year. Just don't feel comfortable with paying for what looks like - finally - a real breakthrough year. If we decide to keep him, I'd FT one more time...
I think I have whiplash from the abrupt shift in opinion from the "leonard williams is overpaid" crew. Just a few weeks ago he wasn't worth the $16m tag now the NYG made a mistake by not paying him more?
Should they have paid him whatever he wanted and ignored their option to simply tag him and pay $16m this year?
Should they ignore that option again next year if LW says he wants Aaron Donald money?
The Giants played it like this with the FT because they were skeptical too and there is no other way to slice it. Which leads to the other relevant point of what were they expecting when they traded for him? What was their plan?
He was traded for during a losing season; he seemingly played well last season; the team didn't pursue a DT in free agency or draft; and he was tagged (not transitional but franchise) allowing for additional months to sort out a contract, and most importantly he fits the vision of what this GM is trying to build here.
What is the issue because his price tag isn't going down?