Can you honestly and confidently say you expect and believe Williams will replicate this level of production not once but 3 or more times in the next 5?
I would say chances are he goes back to being the player that he was before this season - players have their peak or career years. And that isn't a bad thing, esp if we do find that ER in the draft.......but money is an issue.
I am not under the impression he's finally figured it out. Guy's a hard worker, never misses a game, and things are falling right for him 2020.
However, you can make the case he's playing with better players and scheme, and this level of play is the new norm or close to it.
This will be a tough decision for DG (or whoever) & company.......
I find this as one of the most fair assessments I've seen.
As far as crippling the cap, obviously you want to use your cap smartly, but I'd remind you of Nate Solder. He's been attrocious and it doesn't seem to be hurting us that much.
Solder opting out cleared up space for Logan Ryan to be on the team, see how that worked out nicely for us?
We've been steaming pile of crap both years we had his money on the books. He wasn't the only reason for that but this point makes zero sense.
A lot of people survive car accidents, doesn't mean you should point that out and drive sloppily.
This is a good point and I thought about that while making this post actually. I was more referencing moving forward. It hasn't handicapped us all that much as far as 2021 is concerned. Obviously you want to make best use of you cap dollars and that signing absolutely does hurt, but I was more referencing this as it pertains to LW. Paying a guy market value, that has been very healthy, that is only 25 or 26 will almost certainly not hurt.
Solder was a slightly declining player at 30 that fell of the cliff, it was a risky gamble. We however have no idea what the stipulations of taking the Giants job in 2018 were. Because all the people that point to DG being an absolute failure, I point to them it was only really bad in 2018.
Moving forward has been really good. Especially considering the fact that in season in 2018, either he realized his mistake or it was an easy sell to ownership this wasn't going to be a quick fix. In fact the further we get, the better the moves start to look, which would have killed that argument this year, if we didn't start 0-5 and currently sit at 5-7 there would be no argument.
I did a couple all 22 breakdowns last year and what was apparent to me is our coaching staff was some of the worst I've seen. DG was completely sunk by Shurmur and the clown car. After the Patriots game I was kind of perplexed that Shurmur could force results out of QBs and still don't have a theory on that. Not just schematically either, we know guys regressed under this coaching staff. Hal Hunter coaching our line made me sick. Personally, I put that at his feet actually as that's where I believe the signs point to, but I don't have tangible proof of that. I think he had a very minimal voice in hiring Judge, but once again, I have no proof of that.
RE: I have no idea why anyone thinks the Giants would be better
We finally have an extremely stout young D-Line that plays excellent together and which is led by LW, and yet you have members posting the weakest arguments to not sign this guy. It's the same individuals who have ragged the deal from the start and IMO their egos can't handle the fact they were wrong and just double down in here.
Again, don't misrepresent what anyone said. Who said the Giants would be better without him? Pretty much everyone said they would love to proceed with him on the DL. Even most that didn't like the trade never disliked the player. Speaking for myself, I liked the idea of adding Williams but once we knew he was their interest, I would have preferred via FA as opposed to trade. I firmly believe that could have happened for significantly less than the approximately $20M he is looking for.
At a lower price, I think it is the kind of signing that would have intrigued most. Some would question whether he was worth the $15M or so. Others would optimistically think a change of scenery would potentially yield the player the Jets thought they were getting. If he then went out and played like this, we'd feel like we got a steal. If he went out and played like he did for us last year, we'd be happy, but looking for more. If he played like he did for most of his Jets career, we'd be pissed and ripping Gettleman.
I still do not love the trade, but I love the player we get. That doesn't mean I didn't want him or thought the 3rd round pick would outperform him. AGAIN, 2 notions that nobody here claimed (or at least I know I didn't). I would have liked to have snagged him in FA and had a 3rd round pick, especially with the draft we just had. I would like both. I would also like Williams for another 3-5 years, which unfortunately is not a foregone conclusion with what he is asking. I don't blame him for asking because he is having the season to back it up. I also expect the Giants to give him close to what he wants and him to take it. I only hope he continues to live up to it.
As far as crippling the cap, obviously you want to use your cap smartly, but I'd remind you of Nate Solder. He's been attrocious and it doesn't seem to be hurting us that much.
Solder opting out cleared up space for Logan Ryan to be on the team, see how that worked out nicely for us?
We've been steaming pile of crap both years we had his money on the books. He wasn't the only reason for that but this point makes zero sense.
A lot of people survive car accidents, doesn't mean you should point that out and drive sloppily.
This is a good point and I thought about that while making this post actually. I was more referencing moving forward. It hasn't handicapped us all that much as far as 2021 is concerned. Obviously you want to make best use of you cap dollars and that signing absolutely does hurt, but I was more referencing this as it pertains to LW. Paying a guy market value, that has been very healthy, that is only 25 or 26 will almost certainly not hurt.
Solder was a slightly declining player at 30 that fell of the cliff, it was a risky gamble. We however have no idea what the stipulations of taking the Giants job in 2018 were. Because all the people that point to DG being an absolute failure, I point to them it was only really bad in 2018.
Moving forward has been really good. Especially considering the fact that in season in 2018, either he realized his mistake or it was an easy sell to ownership this wasn't going to be a quick fix. In fact the further we get, the better the moves start to look, which would have killed that argument this year, if we didn't start 0-5 and currently sit at 5-7 there would be no argument.
I did a couple all 22 breakdowns last year and what was apparent to me is our coaching staff was some of the worst I've seen. DG was completely sunk by Shurmur and the clown car. After the Patriots game I was kind of perplexed that Shurmur could force results out of QBs and still don't have a theory on that. Not just schematically either, we know guys regressed under this coaching staff. Hal Hunter coaching our line made me sick. Personally, I put that at his feet actually as that's where I believe the signs point to, but I don't have tangible proof of that. I think he had a very minimal voice in hiring Judge, but once again, I have no proof of that.
But, it does factor in for 2021. His salary is back on the books. Depending on where the cap lands next year, that could be huge. It also may factor in to the very decision this thread is centered around.
RE: So now the argument to incest a large chunk of the cap on Williams
is Solder sucks and he has a big contract? First of all, the only reason his contract isn't killing us is he elected not to play this year due to COVID. Otherwise, he would likely be our LT (ugh) and his salary would prohibit us from making one or more deals we made to shore up the D in response to injuries and other circumstances.
Second, we paid him like a top 5 OL. He has been a mediocre LT, at best. That has absolutely been debilitating. It forced us to spend a premium pick on another LT. It forced us to play a shitty LT because of his salary. It eats up a lot of cap space. The bad side is, and I am not sure of this, but opting out extends his deal by a year, which means we will have his salary back on the books next year, because we wouldn';t cut him until the following year.
One - Solder has been of the worst tackles in football. The point is there were signs his play was declinging and we were singing a 30-year-old tackle to the most money ever at the position. I was more referencing as it pertains to 2021. Obviously SuperBowl caliber teams can't have contracts like that on books, but the point is that hasn't completely sunk us as far as being competitive goes and LW doesn't even come close to coming to those parameters you laid out. LW is the same damn player he has before this big sack season. The film bears that out.
And like you and BW I think it is a red flag when guys turn it up in a contract year. Gotta start asking yourself some questions to dive deeper. Personality-wise, he certainly isn't that. And if was just a contract year thing, why not last year as well? Last year was a contract year for him too.
hard to look good if the people around you aren't.
But if you don't notice the higher frequency this year of LW beating and sometimes even abusing people in 1 on 1 matchups, we aren't watching the same games.
He did the same, but the coverage was bad or we got zero from the edge. He's the same player. I will say yesterday he turned it up a notch, but that's variance and in my minds a good sign. I like guys that play like a man possessed in the biggest games, in close games, with the most stakes on the line, when I'm sure it was made clear to them all week are going to need a heroic effort for you with Colt starting at QB.
RE: RE: So now the argument to incest a large chunk of the cap on Williams
is Solder sucks and he has a big contract? First of all, the only reason his contract isn't killing us is he elected not to play this year due to COVID. Otherwise, he would likely be our LT (ugh) and his salary would prohibit us from making one or more deals we made to shore up the D in response to injuries and other circumstances.
Second, we paid him like a top 5 OL. He has been a mediocre LT, at best. That has absolutely been debilitating. It forced us to spend a premium pick on another LT. It forced us to play a shitty LT because of his salary. It eats up a lot of cap space. The bad side is, and I am not sure of this, but opting out extends his deal by a year, which means we will have his salary back on the books next year, because we wouldn';t cut him until the following year.
One - Solder has been of the worst tackles in football. The point is there were signs his play was declinging and we were singing a 30-year-old tackle to the most money ever at the position. I was more referencing as it pertains to 2021. Obviously SuperBowl caliber teams can't have contracts like that on books, but the point is that hasn't completely sunk us as far as being competitive goes and LW doesn't even come close to coming to those parameters you laid out. LW is the same damn player he has before this big sack season. The film bears that out.
And like you and BW I think it is a red flag when guys turn it up in a contract year. Gotta start asking yourself some questions to dive deeper. Personality-wise, he certainly isn't that. And if was just a contract year thing, why not last year as well? Last year was a contract year for him too.
One, I absolutely do not think Williams is the same player he always was. He is a significantly better player this year than at any other point in his career, except maybe 2016. Two, last year, once off the Jets, he did pick up his play, but it is a valid question that I've asked myself in re: to contract year.
Bottom line, if he was the same player he was on the Jets, I don't think we are having this conversation. The question, as with all FA, is this the player he will be for 3-5 years. I certainly hope so.
RE: RE: I have no idea why anyone thinks the Giants would be better
We finally have an extremely stout young D-Line that plays excellent together and which is led by LW, and yet you have members posting the weakest arguments to not sign this guy. It's the same individuals who have ragged the deal from the start and IMO their egos can't handle the fact they were wrong and just double down in here.
Again, don't misrepresent what anyone said. Who said the Giants would be better without him? Pretty much everyone said they would love to proceed with him on the DL. Even most that didn't like the trade never disliked the player. Speaking for myself, I liked the idea of adding Williams but once we knew he was their interest, I would have preferred via FA as opposed to trade. I firmly believe that could have happened for significantly less than the approximately $20M he is looking for.
At a lower price, I think it is the kind of signing that would have intrigued most. Some would question whether he was worth the $15M or so. Others would optimistically think a change of scenery would potentially yield the player the Jets thought they were getting. If he then went out and played like this, we'd feel like we got a steal. If he went out and played like he did for us last year, we'd be happy, but looking for more. If he played like he did for most of his Jets career, we'd be pissed and ripping Gettleman.
I still do not love the trade, but I love the player we get. That doesn't mean I didn't want him or thought the 3rd round pick would outperform him. AGAIN, 2 notions that nobody here claimed (or at least I know I didn't). I would have liked to have snagged him in FA and had a 3rd round pick, especially with the draft we just had. I would like both. I would also like Williams for another 3-5 years, which unfortunately is not a foregone conclusion with what he is asking. I don't blame him for asking because he is having the season to back it up. I also expect the Giants to give him close to what he wants and him to take it. I only hope he continues to live up to it.
I wasn't referencing you MM. I also view the trade in a way that the draft picks given up in no way assures you of getting an avg starter let alone the backbone of your D. Of course when first done it did appear to be a bit much for a player who had not fulfilled close to his potential yet. Now I think it was an excellent trade
RE: RE: RE: I have no idea why anyone thinks the Giants would be better
We finally have an extremely stout young D-Line that plays excellent together and which is led by LW, and yet you have members posting the weakest arguments to not sign this guy. It's the same individuals who have ragged the deal from the start and IMO their egos can't handle the fact they were wrong and just double down in here.
Again, don't misrepresent what anyone said. Who said the Giants would be better without him? Pretty much everyone said they would love to proceed with him on the DL. Even most that didn't like the trade never disliked the player. Speaking for myself, I liked the idea of adding Williams but once we knew he was their interest, I would have preferred via FA as opposed to trade. I firmly believe that could have happened for significantly less than the approximately $20M he is looking for.
At a lower price, I think it is the kind of signing that would have intrigued most. Some would question whether he was worth the $15M or so. Others would optimistically think a change of scenery would potentially yield the player the Jets thought they were getting. If he then went out and played like this, we'd feel like we got a steal. If he went out and played like he did for us last year, we'd be happy, but looking for more. If he played like he did for most of his Jets career, we'd be pissed and ripping Gettleman.
I still do not love the trade, but I love the player we get. That doesn't mean I didn't want him or thought the 3rd round pick would outperform him. AGAIN, 2 notions that nobody here claimed (or at least I know I didn't). I would have liked to have snagged him in FA and had a 3rd round pick, especially with the draft we just had. I would like both. I would also like Williams for another 3-5 years, which unfortunately is not a foregone conclusion with what he is asking. I don't blame him for asking because he is having the season to back it up. I also expect the Giants to give him close to what he wants and him to take it. I only hope he continues to live up to it.
I wasn't referencing you MM. I also view the trade in a way that the draft picks given up in no way assures you of getting an avg starter let alone the backbone of your D. Of course when first done it did appear to be a bit much for a player who had not fulfilled close to his potential yet. Now I think it was an excellent trade
Got it.
Should teams ever give any player a mega-contract?
That may be a valid position, but I find it interesting that literally every team in the NFL pays a select few of its players a lot of money. A GM could take the approach that they'll never pay more than say $9mm a year to anyone, ensuring that the team has a very solidly laid foundation of good but not outstanding players. Interestingly, none do. Which either suggests a lack of imagination or that the market is accurately pricing elite talent.
We can have that discussion in the abstract - I think it's a pretty interesting one - but if we accept that the Giants are not going to build their team that way, in that case the "peak year" argument when applied to Leonard W is just pure c**p (sorry to be blunt).
I remember reading in the draft write-ups when LW entered the NFL that many pro scouts thought he was the best player in the draft. On draft night, people were surprised that he slipped all the way to the Jets. Then he gets stuck playing for an abysmal organization. Next, he comes here and plays for Bettcher, actually playing pretty well. Now, he's suddenly on a team that is developing with excellent coaching and he's kicking butt.
What about this situation screams out that LW is a particular high risk signing? The answer is nothing. I haven't even brought up yet how everyone thinks he's a professional who is good in the locker room. Case closed.
He's certainly the same player he's been. He played like a man possessed yesterday, but I think that's a plus. Played well in big spots, in a big game, when the message all week was the defense needed a Herculian effort.
And please stop with the "we should have just signed him in FA". He wasn't getting to FA. Add to the fact that we certainly aren't going to be big players in FA this year and even on the offchance we don't resign him we'll get a 3rd comp pick.
The fact is salaries increase, especially for top players, every year
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
RE: Should teams ever give any player a mega-contract?
That may be a valid position, but I find it interesting that literally every team in the NFL pays a select few of its players a lot of money. A GM could take the approach that they'll never pay more than say $9mm a year to anyone, ensuring that the team has a very solidly laid foundation of good but not outstanding players. Interestingly, none do. Which either suggests a lack of imagination or that the market is accurately pricing elite talent.
We can have that discussion in the abstract - I think it's a pretty interesting one - but if we accept that the Giants are not going to build their team that way, in that case the "peak year" argument when applied to Leonard W is just pure c**p (sorry to be blunt).
I remember reading in the draft write-ups when LW entered the NFL that many pro scouts thought he was the best player in the draft. On draft night, people were surprised that he slipped all the way to the Jets. Then he gets stuck playing for an abysmal organization. Next, he comes here and plays for Bettcher, actually playing pretty well. Now, he's suddenly on a team that is developing with excellent coaching and he's kicking butt.
What about this situation screams out that LW is a particular high risk signing? The answer is nothing. I haven't even brought up yet how everyone thinks he's a professional who is good in the locker room. Case closed.
Exactly. In fact guys like LW don't make FA because their own teams resign them. The type of guys they let walk generally have injury red flags or are limited as players. Exactly why we had to trade for him and there were other suitors.
People are acting like he's a different player here I know are only results orientated and not process. Unless your name is Aaron Donald, you aren't generating sacks on your own as an interior DL. He's pretty much a unicorn in NFL history as far as interior DL go. And we won't even have to pay him like we would have to pay Donald. That was the impasse on Donald's contract for a while and that's why the Rams folded and gave him the contract.
Is finally the Big Cat. Did you see the athleticism on one of he RW sacks? He is nimble for a big man. Don't forget the cap is likely going down in 2021. He is going to get damn near Buckner money and I think we should pay it. Honestly, if the opportunity cost is Barkley's next contract I would rather have LW. It will be less, at a more important position.
The fact is salaries increase, especially for top players, every year
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
Agree, so why didn’t DG sign him earlier this year? Was he trying to save the Giants money but now actually caused the opposite?
RE: Should teams ever give any player a mega-contract?
What about this situation screams out that LW is a particular high risk signing? The answer is nothing. I haven't even brought up yet how everyone thinks he's a professional who is good in the locker room. Case closed.
At the right price, LW is not high risk. That's been the crux of the debate.
IMV, he's a good player. A good player playing pretty damn well right now. But is he a great player who deserves elite money?
I read that he's doing what LW has always done. Sorry, I don't buy that. He's closing the deal this year by taking the QB down. That is what great players do. They finish.
Do we remember all of the times LT nearly got to the QB? Uh, no. We remember that he closed.
RE: For those who disagree, just answer one question
Can you honestly and confidently say you expect and believe Williams will replicate this level of production not once but 3 or more times in the next 5?
IMO this is the wrong way of looking at this question.
If there was any "confident" way to replicate pro bowl production from a DL the going rate for players like LW wouldn't be $20m. And even more so if there were multiple ways to confidently replace that production.
So here's how I would phrase the right question. What is the best use of $ to purchase production in FA next year? Then you weigh that production against Leonard Williams cost/contributions.
If they believe he's been the best player on defense this year, and has the right work ethic, it's going to be very hard to find a player that can match his production because he also never misses games.
The fact is salaries increase, especially for top players, every year
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
Agree, so why didn’t DG sign him earlier this year? Was he trying to save the Giants money but now actually caused the opposite?
It's not a couple of million. It's saving more than that per year over 5 years and it is more about how much is guaranteed and the salary cap hit.
One thing bw said had me think about the question differently
Below is what Judge said about him after the win. I'll trust Judge and the GM to put their heads together and determine if signing Williams is worth the investment, and will be happy if it happens. The guy us a beast, in his prime, and a team leader. That's hard to replace.
Quote:
"That guy is a man. That dude is a man. There's things about Leo that you may not know by not being in the locker room with him. First off, this guy is a pleasure to be around. This guy smiles all the time. He's a great teammate, he's very coachable. You give him something to work on, he's going to work as hard as he can to master it. He gives us a lot of versatility on the defense because of his skillset. And this dude is just a guy that when you see him in your locker room before the game, he makes you feel a little bit better. Obviously there's statistics on the field that you see, what you don't see is what kind of guy he is to coach, what kind of teammate he is away from it. That's as important if not more important than all the statistics you see on the sheets. This guy helps everyone else raise their level of preparation and play."
The fact is salaries increase, especially for top players, every year
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
Agree, so why didn’t DG sign him earlier this year? Was he trying to save the Giants money but now actually caused the opposite?
There were rumors of him wanting 18-20 million that’s why. Hard to sign a guy with to that type of contract until proof is in the pudding. There’s also no benefit when you can just tag him at that point.
RE: One thing bw said had me think about the question differently
Is he a good/very good player playing great this year or is he a great player? Hard to say, because he never played at this level before.
Maybe he's....you know.....progressing? This is such an arm chair take. He's been an excellent player playing in poor overall conditions. Now he's playing in good conditions, for a good coaching staff, and looks much better as he approaches his prime. Not being able to evaluate a good player on a bad team is pretty lame. The guy had 17.5 sacks before he got to NY and the talk was "can this guy ever get a sack"? It's classic head in the ground, "I only watch the Giants" nonsense. Look at the thread when we originally acquired him - there are a few people who actually watched him play and followed his career that were happy about the trade. There's a reason for that.
RE: RE: So now the argument to incest a large chunk of the cap on Williams
What if he plays just good in 2021 like he did in 2019, but not as good as 2020?
What happens if Team LW suggests that is due to letting Dalvin walk in free agency and put more pressure on LW to perform? What happens if its because Bradberry or the secondary is banged up all year in 2021 and hurries/sacks drop for everybody.
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
RE: RE: RE: So now the argument to incest a large chunk of the cap on Williams
And if was just a contract year thing, why not last year as well? Last year was a contract year for him too.
This.
I'd feel a ton more comfortable dumping money on LW if he we saw this production two years in a row...........
Could the simple solution be franchise him a second time, and show me again?
That's a possibility, but also very likely he doesn't accept the tag. From his perspective, he'd be correct to do so. Both sides gambled on this year. He showed them what they wanted. Taking the tag again would be viewed as an unnecessary risk on his end.
RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
Correct. I may have a few reservations due to the contract he is seeking, but overall, this is a textbook case for the Franchise tag. You have a decent player obtained who played well, but not great. He wants big money, team isn't sure. Tag him and both sides gamble on this season. He delivered better than expected production, so he earned the tag this year and backs up his request. The team got what they wanted/needed to see. Like I said, I am worried that this was the first year we've seen from him like this in 6 seasons. But, as for the process, it works and the Giants really have to work something out with him.
RE: RE: One thing bw said had me think about the question differently
Is he a good/very good player playing great this year or is he a great player? Hard to say, because he never played at this level before.
Maybe he's....you know.....progressing? This is such an arm chair take. He's been an excellent player playing in poor overall conditions. Now he's playing in good conditions, for a good coaching staff, and looks much better as he approaches his prime. Not being able to evaluate a good player on a bad team is pretty lame. The guy had 17.5 sacks before he got to NY and the talk was "can this guy ever get a sack"? It's classic head in the ground, "I only watch the Giants" nonsense. Look at the thread when we originally acquired him - there are a few people who actually watched him play and followed his career that were happy about the trade. There's a reason for that.
How is that an armchair take? He was a high first round pick who never produced like one. The Jets may be a shitshow, but there are still expectations on 1st rounders. If he was our pick, many, if not most, would have been disappointed by last year. Then we traded for him last year and he played a little better, but not great. This season is the first time he has been a dominating force. This is his first great season. Why is that difficult?
It is 100% possible the combination of his work ethic and the coaching and the defensive system and the players around him are all contributing factors to a career improvement after 6 seasons. But, it is also possible that this year is an aberration. That unknown is what troubles some.
Nobody denies he is having a great season. Nobody here dislikes him. It is purely the business end of the decision about paying him in the ballpark of $18-20M for the next 5 years that worries some.
RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
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Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
It's not my hang up that's the issue at all. I want LW signed to a market deal as much as anybody. Hell, even a market deal+ at this stage, otherwise I don't know why he was traded for.
But the reason he is not already isn't going away imv.
Free Agency...it will clear up everything.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
It's not my hang up that's the issue at all. I want LW signed to a market deal as much as anybody. Hell, even a market deal+ at this stage, otherwise I don't know why he was traded for.
But the reason he is not already isn't going away imv.
Free Agency...it will clear up everything.
The reason is not is actually quite simple. The Giants were reluctant to pay the kind of money he was asking. They bought time by tagging him. Both sides did not meet an agreement before the deadline, so they each bank on the tag year. Williams bet on himself. Now, if the giants don't pay him, somebody else will. The Giants should have seen what they wanted and will likely pay him this offseason. This is a case where the tag worked out exactly how it is supposed to.
RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
The reason is not is actually quite simple. The Giants were reluctant to pay the kind of money he was asking. They bought time by tagging him. Both sides did not meet an agreement before the deadline, so they each bank on the tag year. Williams bet on himself. Now, if the giants don't pay him, somebody else will. The Giants should have seen what they wanted and will likely pay him this offseason. This is a case where the tag worked out exactly how it is supposed to.
Let's see how this works out.
RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
That is how I see it also, but I am resigned to him getting pretty close to his asking price. If he reverts back to even the play with us last year, it is overpaying. If he plays similar to this season for 2 or 3 more years, I am thrilled.
This notion that he was always this player is what is not sitting with me. You can say the Jets sucked. You can say we sucked and the scheme/lack of talent around him contributed to lack of stats. You can say whatever you want. But, never before this year was he a disruptive/dominating player. If we get anything resembling this player moving forward, everyone is happy (except NYG opponents). If we get the Jets Leonard Williams, people will be calling for his head.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
The reason is not is actually quite simple. The Giants were reluctant to pay the kind of money he was asking. They bought time by tagging him. Both sides did not meet an agreement before the deadline, so they each bank on the tag year. Williams bet on himself. Now, if the giants don't pay him, somebody else will. The Giants should have seen what they wanted and will likely pay him this offseason. This is a case where the tag worked out exactly how it is supposed to.
Let's see how this works out.
It's going to work out with the NYG giving LW a contract comparable to what Buckner/Jones got this past offseason. Read Judge's quote on Williams yesterday, never say never but it's unlikely they let him walk.
RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
That is how I see it also, but I am resigned to him getting pretty close to his asking price. If he reverts back to even the play with us last year, it is overpaying. If he plays similar to this season for 2 or 3 more years, I am thrilled.
This notion that he was always this player is what is not sitting with me. You can say the Jets sucked. You can say we sucked and the scheme/lack of talent around him contributed to lack of stats. You can say whatever you want. But, never before this year was he a disruptive/dominating player. If we get anything resembling this player moving forward, everyone is happy (except NYG opponents). If we get the Jets Leonard Williams, people will be calling for his head.
The risk of overpay (in an extended contract) has only grown in 2020. And it was pretty damn high already in 2019 because of the process that went down.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
The reason is not is actually quite simple. The Giants were reluctant to pay the kind of money he was asking. They bought time by tagging him. Both sides did not meet an agreement before the deadline, so they each bank on the tag year. Williams bet on himself. Now, if the giants don't pay him, somebody else will. The Giants should have seen what they wanted and will likely pay him this offseason. This is a case where the tag worked out exactly how it is supposed to.
Let's see how this works out.
It's going to work out with the NYG giving LW a contract comparable to what Buckner/Jones got this past offseason. Read Judge's quote on Williams yesterday, never say never but it's unlikely they let him walk.
I agree it's unlikely they let him walk, the process they went thru basically ensured it. And I read the quote.
All things helping Team LW.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Williams has been a top player since he came here
people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
That is how I see it also, but I am resigned to him getting pretty close to his asking price. If he reverts back to even the play with us last year, it is overpaying. If he plays similar to this season for 2 or 3 more years, I am thrilled.
This notion that he was always this player is what is not sitting with me. You can say the Jets sucked. You can say we sucked and the scheme/lack of talent around him contributed to lack of stats. You can say whatever you want. But, never before this year was he a disruptive/dominating player. If we get anything resembling this player moving forward, everyone is happy (except NYG opponents). If we get the Jets Leonard Williams, people will be calling for his head.
The risk of overpay (in an extended contract) has only grown in 2020. And it was pretty damn high already in 2019 because of the process that went down.
I agree. But, at the same time you have to acknowledge that the likelihood of walking away also greatly diminished. You can't ask a player to put up or shut up and then not re-sign him after a season like this.
but something to think about, is Graham. I have read by some here that Williams is finally in a system and with a coach that suits him and allows his talent to shine. This notion that this is an ideal situation for him, how does the prospect of losing Graham this year or next weigh? I think you have to be banking on the player, not the system here.
I am not sure they actually asked him to put up or shut up.
Williams has proven the upside both the Jets and Giants suspected he had is true. Good for him.
I wish they would have signed him last year, so that the bulk of the guaranteed money hit in his 6th and 7th season. But it's not a tragedy if the bulk hits in his 7th and 8th.
I think his fair value right now is equal to the deal Buckner signed, $39.3M guaranteed at signing, with $44.3M total guarantees.
So long as it's in the Giants court whether to keep him on the team in his 9th and 10th NFL season.
you know what else leads to guys getting overpaid?
players who are on teams that win Super Bowls. It is a results business and players who produce results get paid. Leonard Williams is no different.
I for one am glad they didn't pay him pre-results because I don't think the discount would have been all that significant. It was reported he wanted 18-20m, so lets say he'd have taken 18x4. Would you have preferred to pay him 72m last year or 80m off this year?
IMO the test drive with new staff/scheme was well worth that 10% increase.
The Giants just ran out of options and are afraid of using free agency.
They didn't put it that way, but that is essentially what this tag amounted to. They were reluctant to pay. This season serves to help make that decision. While the tag is technically an option again, I don't see any way Williams accepts it.
He at least had consecutive years with 12 and 8 sacks with the 9ers. And he has essentially averaged 2X the sacks over his career versus LW. Not that this matters, but over the last three years when you talked about the best DTs in the NFL, Buckner was in the discussion.
I'm sticking with my original position:
(1) Let LW test the market to see what his true value is. If he walks, thanks for the last year of service.
(2) If the decision is to keep him, then we re-apply the tag. I don't trust DTs to have multiple great years unless they are from another planet like Donald.
is the fact that this thread and discussion is even taking place is a good thing. It means Williams is having a great season and played to a level that makes the Giants seriously consider re-signing him. I think the worst case scenario going into the off season would have been him playing like last year. He was playing very well, but nowhere near what could be considered elite. That would have left them with a much tougher decision. On the other hand, if he just stunk up the joint, it would probably mean the Giants still sucked, but at least it would also cement the decision not to sign him. With his play, it probably cements the decision to try to re-sign him.
is the fact that this thread and discussion is even taking place is a good thing. It means Williams is having a great season and played to a level that makes the Giants seriously consider re-signing him. I think the worst case scenario going into the off season would have been him playing like last year. He was playing very well, but nowhere near what could be considered elite. That would have left them with a much tougher decision. On the other hand, if he just stunk up the joint, it would probably mean the Giants still sucked, but at least it would also cement the decision not to sign him. With his play, it probably cements the decision to try to re-sign him.
Matt - with all do respect, I don't follow this logic. LW was specifically targeted and trade for by a losing team in the middle of the 2019 season. He was already exactly what they were looking for otherwise they shouldn't have done the deal. And I would think they saw more in him than he showed for the Jets otherwise why not see who else becomes available during free agency.
With that, they would have been far better off coming to an agreement (or had one in hand). Now I realize it takes two parties to agree to get it done, by how was the dynamic ever going to change and why would LW's price tag ever go down? Right now, it's Christmas time for Team LW under the cap and our guys made it happen.
He at least had consecutive years with 12 and 8 sacks with the 9ers. And he has essentially averaged 2X the sacks over his career versus LW. Not that this matters, but over the last three years when you talked about the best DTs in the NFL, Buckner was in the discussion.
I'm sticking with my original position:
(1) Let LW test the market to see what his true value is. If he walks, thanks for the last year of service.
(2) If the decision is to keep him, then we re-apply the tag. I don't trust DTs to have multiple great years unless they are from another planet like Donald.
1 is fine.
As to 2, if can get a market deal from him this offseason, his asking price is never going down.
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Can you honestly and confidently say you expect and believe Williams will replicate this level of production not once but 3 or more times in the next 5?
I would say chances are he goes back to being the player that he was before this season - players have their peak or career years. And that isn't a bad thing, esp if we do find that ER in the draft.......but money is an issue.
I am not under the impression he's finally figured it out. Guy's a hard worker, never misses a game, and things are falling right for him 2020.
However, you can make the case he's playing with better players and scheme, and this level of play is the new norm or close to it.
This will be a tough decision for DG (or whoever) & company.......
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As far as crippling the cap, obviously you want to use your cap smartly, but I'd remind you of Nate Solder. He's been attrocious and it doesn't seem to be hurting us that much.
Solder opting out cleared up space for Logan Ryan to be on the team, see how that worked out nicely for us?
We've been steaming pile of crap both years we had his money on the books. He wasn't the only reason for that but this point makes zero sense.
A lot of people survive car accidents, doesn't mean you should point that out and drive sloppily.
This is a good point and I thought about that while making this post actually. I was more referencing moving forward. It hasn't handicapped us all that much as far as 2021 is concerned. Obviously you want to make best use of you cap dollars and that signing absolutely does hurt, but I was more referencing this as it pertains to LW. Paying a guy market value, that has been very healthy, that is only 25 or 26 will almost certainly not hurt.
Solder was a slightly declining player at 30 that fell of the cliff, it was a risky gamble. We however have no idea what the stipulations of taking the Giants job in 2018 were. Because all the people that point to DG being an absolute failure, I point to them it was only really bad in 2018.
Moving forward has been really good. Especially considering the fact that in season in 2018, either he realized his mistake or it was an easy sell to ownership this wasn't going to be a quick fix. In fact the further we get, the better the moves start to look, which would have killed that argument this year, if we didn't start 0-5 and currently sit at 5-7 there would be no argument.
I did a couple all 22 breakdowns last year and what was apparent to me is our coaching staff was some of the worst I've seen. DG was completely sunk by Shurmur and the clown car. After the Patriots game I was kind of perplexed that Shurmur could force results out of QBs and still don't have a theory on that. Not just schematically either, we know guys regressed under this coaching staff. Hal Hunter coaching our line made me sick. Personally, I put that at his feet actually as that's where I believe the signs point to, but I don't have tangible proof of that. I think he had a very minimal voice in hiring Judge, but once again, I have no proof of that.
We finally have an extremely stout young D-Line that plays excellent together and which is led by LW, and yet you have members posting the weakest arguments to not sign this guy. It's the same individuals who have ragged the deal from the start and IMO their egos can't handle the fact they were wrong and just double down in here.
At a lower price, I think it is the kind of signing that would have intrigued most. Some would question whether he was worth the $15M or so. Others would optimistically think a change of scenery would potentially yield the player the Jets thought they were getting. If he then went out and played like this, we'd feel like we got a steal. If he went out and played like he did for us last year, we'd be happy, but looking for more. If he played like he did for most of his Jets career, we'd be pissed and ripping Gettleman.
I still do not love the trade, but I love the player we get. That doesn't mean I didn't want him or thought the 3rd round pick would outperform him. AGAIN, 2 notions that nobody here claimed (or at least I know I didn't). I would have liked to have snagged him in FA and had a 3rd round pick, especially with the draft we just had. I would like both. I would also like Williams for another 3-5 years, which unfortunately is not a foregone conclusion with what he is asking. I don't blame him for asking because he is having the season to back it up. I also expect the Giants to give him close to what he wants and him to take it. I only hope he continues to live up to it.
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As far as crippling the cap, obviously you want to use your cap smartly, but I'd remind you of Nate Solder. He's been attrocious and it doesn't seem to be hurting us that much.
Solder opting out cleared up space for Logan Ryan to be on the team, see how that worked out nicely for us?
We've been steaming pile of crap both years we had his money on the books. He wasn't the only reason for that but this point makes zero sense.
A lot of people survive car accidents, doesn't mean you should point that out and drive sloppily.
This is a good point and I thought about that while making this post actually. I was more referencing moving forward. It hasn't handicapped us all that much as far as 2021 is concerned. Obviously you want to make best use of you cap dollars and that signing absolutely does hurt, but I was more referencing this as it pertains to LW. Paying a guy market value, that has been very healthy, that is only 25 or 26 will almost certainly not hurt.
Solder was a slightly declining player at 30 that fell of the cliff, it was a risky gamble. We however have no idea what the stipulations of taking the Giants job in 2018 were. Because all the people that point to DG being an absolute failure, I point to them it was only really bad in 2018.
Moving forward has been really good. Especially considering the fact that in season in 2018, either he realized his mistake or it was an easy sell to ownership this wasn't going to be a quick fix. In fact the further we get, the better the moves start to look, which would have killed that argument this year, if we didn't start 0-5 and currently sit at 5-7 there would be no argument.
I did a couple all 22 breakdowns last year and what was apparent to me is our coaching staff was some of the worst I've seen. DG was completely sunk by Shurmur and the clown car. After the Patriots game I was kind of perplexed that Shurmur could force results out of QBs and still don't have a theory on that. Not just schematically either, we know guys regressed under this coaching staff. Hal Hunter coaching our line made me sick. Personally, I put that at his feet actually as that's where I believe the signs point to, but I don't have tangible proof of that. I think he had a very minimal voice in hiring Judge, but once again, I have no proof of that.
Second, we paid him like a top 5 OL. He has been a mediocre LT, at best. That has absolutely been debilitating. It forced us to spend a premium pick on another LT. It forced us to play a shitty LT because of his salary. It eats up a lot of cap space. The bad side is, and I am not sure of this, but opting out extends his deal by a year, which means we will have his salary back on the books next year, because we wouldn';t cut him until the following year.
One - Solder has been of the worst tackles in football. The point is there were signs his play was declinging and we were singing a 30-year-old tackle to the most money ever at the position. I was more referencing as it pertains to 2021. Obviously SuperBowl caliber teams can't have contracts like that on books, but the point is that hasn't completely sunk us as far as being competitive goes and LW doesn't even come close to coming to those parameters you laid out. LW is the same damn player he has before this big sack season. The film bears that out.
And like you and BW I think it is a red flag when guys turn it up in a contract year. Gotta start asking yourself some questions to dive deeper. Personality-wise, he certainly isn't that. And if was just a contract year thing, why not last year as well? Last year was a contract year for him too.
But if you don't notice the higher frequency this year of LW beating and sometimes even abusing people in 1 on 1 matchups, we aren't watching the same games.
He did the same, but the coverage was bad or we got zero from the edge. He's the same player. I will say yesterday he turned it up a notch, but that's variance and in my minds a good sign. I like guys that play like a man possessed in the biggest games, in close games, with the most stakes on the line, when I'm sure it was made clear to them all week are going to need a heroic effort for you with Colt starting at QB.
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is Solder sucks and he has a big contract? First of all, the only reason his contract isn't killing us is he elected not to play this year due to COVID. Otherwise, he would likely be our LT (ugh) and his salary would prohibit us from making one or more deals we made to shore up the D in response to injuries and other circumstances.
Second, we paid him like a top 5 OL. He has been a mediocre LT, at best. That has absolutely been debilitating. It forced us to spend a premium pick on another LT. It forced us to play a shitty LT because of his salary. It eats up a lot of cap space. The bad side is, and I am not sure of this, but opting out extends his deal by a year, which means we will have his salary back on the books next year, because we wouldn';t cut him until the following year.
One - Solder has been of the worst tackles in football. The point is there were signs his play was declinging and we were singing a 30-year-old tackle to the most money ever at the position. I was more referencing as it pertains to 2021. Obviously SuperBowl caliber teams can't have contracts like that on books, but the point is that hasn't completely sunk us as far as being competitive goes and LW doesn't even come close to coming to those parameters you laid out. LW is the same damn player he has before this big sack season. The film bears that out.
And like you and BW I think it is a red flag when guys turn it up in a contract year. Gotta start asking yourself some questions to dive deeper. Personality-wise, he certainly isn't that. And if was just a contract year thing, why not last year as well? Last year was a contract year for him too.
Bottom line, if he was the same player he was on the Jets, I don't think we are having this conversation. The question, as with all FA, is this the player he will be for 3-5 years. I certainly hope so.
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Without LW?
We finally have an extremely stout young D-Line that plays excellent together and which is led by LW, and yet you have members posting the weakest arguments to not sign this guy. It's the same individuals who have ragged the deal from the start and IMO their egos can't handle the fact they were wrong and just double down in here.
Again, don't misrepresent what anyone said. Who said the Giants would be better without him? Pretty much everyone said they would love to proceed with him on the DL. Even most that didn't like the trade never disliked the player. Speaking for myself, I liked the idea of adding Williams but once we knew he was their interest, I would have preferred via FA as opposed to trade. I firmly believe that could have happened for significantly less than the approximately $20M he is looking for.
At a lower price, I think it is the kind of signing that would have intrigued most. Some would question whether he was worth the $15M or so. Others would optimistically think a change of scenery would potentially yield the player the Jets thought they were getting. If he then went out and played like this, we'd feel like we got a steal. If he went out and played like he did for us last year, we'd be happy, but looking for more. If he played like he did for most of his Jets career, we'd be pissed and ripping Gettleman.
I still do not love the trade, but I love the player we get. That doesn't mean I didn't want him or thought the 3rd round pick would outperform him. AGAIN, 2 notions that nobody here claimed (or at least I know I didn't). I would have liked to have snagged him in FA and had a 3rd round pick, especially with the draft we just had. I would like both. I would also like Williams for another 3-5 years, which unfortunately is not a foregone conclusion with what he is asking. I don't blame him for asking because he is having the season to back it up. I also expect the Giants to give him close to what he wants and him to take it. I only hope he continues to live up to it.
I wasn't referencing you MM. I also view the trade in a way that the draft picks given up in no way assures you of getting an avg starter let alone the backbone of your D. Of course when first done it did appear to be a bit much for a player who had not fulfilled close to his potential yet. Now I think it was an excellent trade
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In comment 15071464 montanagiant said:
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Without LW?
We finally have an extremely stout young D-Line that plays excellent together and which is led by LW, and yet you have members posting the weakest arguments to not sign this guy. It's the same individuals who have ragged the deal from the start and IMO their egos can't handle the fact they were wrong and just double down in here.
Again, don't misrepresent what anyone said. Who said the Giants would be better without him? Pretty much everyone said they would love to proceed with him on the DL. Even most that didn't like the trade never disliked the player. Speaking for myself, I liked the idea of adding Williams but once we knew he was their interest, I would have preferred via FA as opposed to trade. I firmly believe that could have happened for significantly less than the approximately $20M he is looking for.
At a lower price, I think it is the kind of signing that would have intrigued most. Some would question whether he was worth the $15M or so. Others would optimistically think a change of scenery would potentially yield the player the Jets thought they were getting. If he then went out and played like this, we'd feel like we got a steal. If he went out and played like he did for us last year, we'd be happy, but looking for more. If he played like he did for most of his Jets career, we'd be pissed and ripping Gettleman.
I still do not love the trade, but I love the player we get. That doesn't mean I didn't want him or thought the 3rd round pick would outperform him. AGAIN, 2 notions that nobody here claimed (or at least I know I didn't). I would have liked to have snagged him in FA and had a 3rd round pick, especially with the draft we just had. I would like both. I would also like Williams for another 3-5 years, which unfortunately is not a foregone conclusion with what he is asking. I don't blame him for asking because he is having the season to back it up. I also expect the Giants to give him close to what he wants and him to take it. I only hope he continues to live up to it.
I wasn't referencing you MM. I also view the trade in a way that the draft picks given up in no way assures you of getting an avg starter let alone the backbone of your D. Of course when first done it did appear to be a bit much for a player who had not fulfilled close to his potential yet. Now I think it was an excellent trade
We can have that discussion in the abstract - I think it's a pretty interesting one - but if we accept that the Giants are not going to build their team that way, in that case the "peak year" argument when applied to Leonard W is just pure c**p (sorry to be blunt).
I remember reading in the draft write-ups when LW entered the NFL that many pro scouts thought he was the best player in the draft. On draft night, people were surprised that he slipped all the way to the Jets. Then he gets stuck playing for an abysmal organization. Next, he comes here and plays for Bettcher, actually playing pretty well. Now, he's suddenly on a team that is developing with excellent coaching and he's kicking butt.
What about this situation screams out that LW is a particular high risk signing? The answer is nothing. I haven't even brought up yet how everyone thinks he's a professional who is good in the locker room. Case closed.
And please stop with the "we should have just signed him in FA". He wasn't getting to FA. Add to the fact that we certainly aren't going to be big players in FA this year and even on the offchance we don't resign him we'll get a 3rd comp pick.
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
We can have that discussion in the abstract - I think it's a pretty interesting one - but if we accept that the Giants are not going to build their team that way, in that case the "peak year" argument when applied to Leonard W is just pure c**p (sorry to be blunt).
I remember reading in the draft write-ups when LW entered the NFL that many pro scouts thought he was the best player in the draft. On draft night, people were surprised that he slipped all the way to the Jets. Then he gets stuck playing for an abysmal organization. Next, he comes here and plays for Bettcher, actually playing pretty well. Now, he's suddenly on a team that is developing with excellent coaching and he's kicking butt.
What about this situation screams out that LW is a particular high risk signing? The answer is nothing. I haven't even brought up yet how everyone thinks he's a professional who is good in the locker room. Case closed.
Exactly. In fact guys like LW don't make FA because their own teams resign them. The type of guys they let walk generally have injury red flags or are limited as players. Exactly why we had to trade for him and there were other suitors.
People are acting like he's a different player here I know are only results orientated and not process. Unless your name is Aaron Donald, you aren't generating sacks on your own as an interior DL. He's pretty much a unicorn in NFL history as far as interior DL go. And we won't even have to pay him like we would have to pay Donald. That was the impasse on Donald's contract for a while and that's why the Rams folded and gave him the contract.
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
Agree, so why didn’t DG sign him earlier this year? Was he trying to save the Giants money but now actually caused the opposite?
What about this situation screams out that LW is a particular high risk signing? The answer is nothing. I haven't even brought up yet how everyone thinks he's a professional who is good in the locker room. Case closed.
At the right price, LW is not high risk. That's been the crux of the debate.
IMV, he's a good player. A good player playing pretty damn well right now. But is he a great player who deserves elite money?
I read that he's doing what LW has always done. Sorry, I don't buy that. He's closing the deal this year by taking the QB down. That is what great players do. They finish.
Do we remember all of the times LT nearly got to the QB? Uh, no. We remember that he closed.
IMO this is the wrong way of looking at this question.
If there was any "confident" way to replicate pro bowl production from a DL the going rate for players like LW wouldn't be $20m. And even more so if there were multiple ways to confidently replace that production.
So here's how I would phrase the right question. What is the best use of $ to purchase production in FA next year? Then you weigh that production against Leonard Williams cost/contributions.
If they believe he's been the best player on defense this year, and has the right work ethic, it's going to be very hard to find a player that can match his production because he also never misses games.
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The fact is salaries increase, especially for top players, every year
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
Agree, so why didn’t DG sign him earlier this year? Was he trying to save the Giants money but now actually caused the opposite?
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The fact is salaries increase, especially for top players, every year
K. Clark signed 4-70 and G. Jarrett signed for 4-68 recently. Williams is better than both those guys. He is also better right now than the other over 30 guys making over 15M
The Only difference in his play this year are sacks are coming. He has always been a guy who pressures the QB - that has not changed. This notion that he is a different player is complete crap
He is 26 and healthy and a excellent player. You don’t let that go because you want to save a couple of million
Agree, so why didn’t DG sign him earlier this year? Was he trying to save the Giants money but now actually caused the opposite?
There were rumors of him wanting 18-20 million that’s why. Hard to sign a guy with to that type of contract until proof is in the pudding. There’s also no benefit when you can just tag him at that point.
Maybe he's....you know.....progressing? This is such an arm chair take. He's been an excellent player playing in poor overall conditions. Now he's playing in good conditions, for a good coaching staff, and looks much better as he approaches his prime. Not being able to evaluate a good player on a bad team is pretty lame. The guy had 17.5 sacks before he got to NY and the talk was "can this guy ever get a sack"? It's classic head in the ground, "I only watch the Giants" nonsense. Look at the thread when we originally acquired him - there are a few people who actually watched him play and followed his career that were happy about the trade. There's a reason for that.
This.
I'd feel a ton more comfortable dumping money on LW if he we saw this production two years in a row...........
Could the simple solution be franchise him a second time, and show me again?
What happens if Team LW suggests that is due to letting Dalvin walk in free agency and put more pressure on LW to perform? What happens if its because Bradberry or the secondary is banged up all year in 2021 and hurries/sacks drop for everybody.
Transition tag?
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
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people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
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And if was just a contract year thing, why not last year as well? Last year was a contract year for him too.
This.
I'd feel a ton more comfortable dumping money on LW if he we saw this production two years in a row...........
Could the simple solution be franchise him a second time, and show me again?
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In comment 15072330 PatersonPlank said:
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people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
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Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
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Is he a good/very good player playing great this year or is he a great player? Hard to say, because he never played at this level before.
Maybe he's....you know.....progressing? This is such an arm chair take. He's been an excellent player playing in poor overall conditions. Now he's playing in good conditions, for a good coaching staff, and looks much better as he approaches his prime. Not being able to evaluate a good player on a bad team is pretty lame. The guy had 17.5 sacks before he got to NY and the talk was "can this guy ever get a sack"? It's classic head in the ground, "I only watch the Giants" nonsense. Look at the thread when we originally acquired him - there are a few people who actually watched him play and followed his career that were happy about the trade. There's a reason for that.
It is 100% possible the combination of his work ethic and the coaching and the defensive system and the players around him are all contributing factors to a career improvement after 6 seasons. But, it is also possible that this year is an aberration. That unknown is what troubles some.
Nobody denies he is having a great season. Nobody here dislikes him. It is purely the business end of the decision about paying him in the ballpark of $18-20M for the next 5 years that worries some.
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In comment 15072330 PatersonPlank said:
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people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
It's not my hang up that's the issue at all. I want LW signed to a market deal as much as anybody. Hell, even a market deal+ at this stage, otherwise I don't know why he was traded for.
But the reason he is not already isn't going away imv.
Free Agency...it will clear up everything.
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In comment 15072336 LBH15 said:
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In comment 15072330 PatersonPlank said:
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people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
This comment is going to wrong crowd. It's actually the Giants Front Office that's nitpicking.
Otherwise he would be signed, right?
This is among your sillier hang ups. When a player gets tagged there's an extension deadline. They negotiated right up to it and everything.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
Jul 13
The #Giants & standout DE Leonard Williams are on the same page as Wednesday’s deadline for franchise players to get deals looms: The plan is to play out the 1-year tag, sources say. The hope is Williams excels in the new system and becomes a big part of the team’s future.
What's so hard to understand about the decision being mutually beneficial for both sides?
It's not my hang up that's the issue at all. I want LW signed to a market deal as much as anybody. Hell, even a market deal+ at this stage, otherwise I don't know why he was traded for.
But the reason he is not already isn't going away imv.
Free Agency...it will clear up everything.
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
The reason is not is actually quite simple. The Giants were reluctant to pay the kind of money he was asking. They bought time by tagging him. Both sides did not meet an agreement before the deadline, so they each bank on the tag year. Williams bet on himself. Now, if the giants don't pay him, somebody else will. The Giants should have seen what they wanted and will likely pay him this offseason. This is a case where the tag worked out exactly how it is supposed to.
Let's see how this works out.
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people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
This notion that he was always this player is what is not sitting with me. You can say the Jets sucked. You can say we sucked and the scheme/lack of talent around him contributed to lack of stats. You can say whatever you want. But, never before this year was he a disruptive/dominating player. If we get anything resembling this player moving forward, everyone is happy (except NYG opponents). If we get the Jets Leonard Williams, people will be calling for his head.
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The reason is not is actually quite simple. The Giants were reluctant to pay the kind of money he was asking. They bought time by tagging him. Both sides did not meet an agreement before the deadline, so they each bank on the tag year. Williams bet on himself. Now, if the giants don't pay him, somebody else will. The Giants should have seen what they wanted and will likely pay him this offseason. This is a case where the tag worked out exactly how it is supposed to.
Let's see how this works out.
It's going to work out with the NYG giving LW a contract comparable to what Buckner/Jones got this past offseason. Read Judge's quote on Williams yesterday, never say never but it's unlikely they let him walk.
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In comment 15072330 PatersonPlank said:
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people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
That is how I see it also, but I am resigned to him getting pretty close to his asking price. If he reverts back to even the play with us last year, it is overpaying. If he plays similar to this season for 2 or 3 more years, I am thrilled.
This notion that he was always this player is what is not sitting with me. You can say the Jets sucked. You can say we sucked and the scheme/lack of talent around him contributed to lack of stats. You can say whatever you want. But, never before this year was he a disruptive/dominating player. If we get anything resembling this player moving forward, everyone is happy (except NYG opponents). If we get the Jets Leonard Williams, people will be calling for his head.
The risk of overpay (in an extended contract) has only grown in 2020. And it was pretty damn high already in 2019 because of the process that went down.
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In comment 15072406 Matt M. said:
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The reason is not is actually quite simple. The Giants were reluctant to pay the kind of money he was asking. They bought time by tagging him. Both sides did not meet an agreement before the deadline, so they each bank on the tag year. Williams bet on himself. Now, if the giants don't pay him, somebody else will. The Giants should have seen what they wanted and will likely pay him this offseason. This is a case where the tag worked out exactly how it is supposed to.
Let's see how this works out.
It's going to work out with the NYG giving LW a contract comparable to what Buckner/Jones got this past offseason. Read Judge's quote on Williams yesterday, never say never but it's unlikely they let him walk.
I agree it's unlikely they let him walk, the process they went thru basically ensured it. And I read the quote.
All things helping Team LW.
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In comment 15072410 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15072330 PatersonPlank said:
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people need to stop nitpicking. He is young, a major part of the defensive success, and can be a mainstay for the next 5 years. What if this and what if that, you can do that about any player. Pay the man!
The divide is simply how much to pay him at this point.
Essentially there are two camps (well, three, but I'll address that later) - pay Team LW elite dollars or pay Team LW elite AAV minus $3-$5M.
One very good season, in my eyes, does not make an elite contract.
That is how I see it also, but I am resigned to him getting pretty close to his asking price. If he reverts back to even the play with us last year, it is overpaying. If he plays similar to this season for 2 or 3 more years, I am thrilled.
This notion that he was always this player is what is not sitting with me. You can say the Jets sucked. You can say we sucked and the scheme/lack of talent around him contributed to lack of stats. You can say whatever you want. But, never before this year was he a disruptive/dominating player. If we get anything resembling this player moving forward, everyone is happy (except NYG opponents). If we get the Jets Leonard Williams, people will be calling for his head.
The risk of overpay (in an extended contract) has only grown in 2020. And it was pretty damn high already in 2019 because of the process that went down.
I wish they would have signed him last year, so that the bulk of the guaranteed money hit in his 6th and 7th season. But it's not a tragedy if the bulk hits in his 7th and 8th.
I think his fair value right now is equal to the deal Buckner signed, $39.3M guaranteed at signing, with $44.3M total guarantees.
So long as it's in the Giants court whether to keep him on the team in his 9th and 10th NFL season.
I for one am glad they didn't pay him pre-results because I don't think the discount would have been all that significant. It was reported he wanted 18-20m, so lets say he'd have taken 18x4. Would you have preferred to pay him 72m last year or 80m off this year?
IMO the test drive with new staff/scheme was well worth that 10% increase.
He at least had consecutive years with 12 and 8 sacks with the 9ers. And he has essentially averaged 2X the sacks over his career versus LW. Not that this matters, but over the last three years when you talked about the best DTs in the NFL, Buckner was in the discussion.
I'm sticking with my original position:
(1) Let LW test the market to see what his true value is. If he walks, thanks for the last year of service.
(2) If the decision is to keep him, then we re-apply the tag. I don't trust DTs to have multiple great years unless they are from another planet like Donald.
Matt - with all do respect, I don't follow this logic. LW was specifically targeted and trade for by a losing team in the middle of the 2019 season. He was already exactly what they were looking for otherwise they shouldn't have done the deal. And I would think they saw more in him than he showed for the Jets otherwise why not see who else becomes available during free agency.
With that, they would have been far better off coming to an agreement (or had one in hand). Now I realize it takes two parties to agree to get it done, by how was the dynamic ever going to change and why would LW's price tag ever go down? Right now, it's Christmas time for Team LW under the cap and our guys made it happen.
He at least had consecutive years with 12 and 8 sacks with the 9ers. And he has essentially averaged 2X the sacks over his career versus LW. Not that this matters, but over the last three years when you talked about the best DTs in the NFL, Buckner was in the discussion.
I'm sticking with my original position:
(1) Let LW test the market to see what his true value is. If he walks, thanks for the last year of service.
(2) If the decision is to keep him, then we re-apply the tag. I don't trust DTs to have multiple great years unless they are from another planet like Donald.
1 is fine.
As to 2, if can get a market deal from him this offseason, his asking price is never going down.