Listened to the All 22 offense breakdown from the
Big Blue Banter Podcast.
They are killing Jason Garrett for:
1. Running antiquated routing concepts (i.e. curl routes to death) versus proven concepts like the
Mills Concept. Not horizontal or drag routes. Poor use of space on the field.
2. Not making adjustments with pre-snap motion to offset the jamming of our receivers which killed the timing of the offense on at least 50 percent the plays. They note Slayton was man handled throughout the game which kills the deep routes designed to create space on underlying routes.
3. Not making adjustments with 13 personnel sets for the two DTs, two Wide 9 DEs and two LBs in the A gaps on a several occasions.
They are not sure Jason Garrett should be the OC next year. While I don't know if I agree Garrett was clearly out coached by Vance Joseph!
Is the problem the scheme? The problem the OL? The problem Jones? Probably a combination of all three. There is no debate the offense stinks. The numbers don't lie. Only the Jets are worse in 2020.
There are 3 games left until next year unless the Giants can win at least 2 of the next 3. Then we'll see what happens heading into 2021.
Quote:
The Giants primary targets Average Separation:
Shepard - 3.1
Engram - 2.9
Slayton - 2.2
Tate - 2.2
Which doesn't put anyone in the top 40 for the league.
That's exactly what I"m looking for - where did you find that?
Stats - ( New Window )
Thank you Christian - much appreciated.
on a side note - there are some REALLY good receivers that create less separation than the Giants WR and there are some complete duds that create more...just sayin.
Not running the second to last ranked offense in the league. No chance.
Two things are clear..
1. Judge does not need Garrett's help
2. Garrett's offensive play calling sucks
I am done with this guy.
Has there ever been a bad offensive coordinator in the NFL who hasn't managed to put together some "really awesome drives?"
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they had a shit game, I think that's what happened. Garrett called a very good game against Seattle. In fact, probably his best of the year aside from the Philly win. He called a great game against Tampa. Jones sucked in that game and we probably win by 7 if he can make one of the 5 throws he missed. Called a good game at Washington. The Bengals game was weird, but prior to Jones going down I think the offense was moving the ball well.
We laid an egg against the Cards. It happens. Now, that isn't to say Garrett has been 'good' all year, he hasn't been. But I'm in the camp where he's been better than people say.
I know it happens, but that's not my point. The vision and pieces of the Offense didn't change between Seattle and Arizona...it was the same.
So how is this on Garrett?
If the D didn’t play lights out, we lose that SEA game and the narrative continues.
I don't think its a big deal if they get a QB friendly system that is similar to Shurmur's. His system was far better for Jones' skill set.
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In comment 15081691 LBH15 said:
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In comment 15081674 ryanmkeane said:
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they had a shit game, I think that's what happened. Garrett called a very good game against Seattle. In fact, probably his best of the year aside from the Philly win. He called a great game against Tampa. Jones sucked in that game and we probably win by 7 if he can make one of the 5 throws he missed. Called a good game at Washington. The Bengals game was weird, but prior to Jones going down I think the offense was moving the ball well.
We laid an egg against the Cards. It happens. Now, that isn't to say Garrett has been 'good' all year, he hasn't been. But I'm in the camp where he's been better than people say.
I know it happens, but that's not my point. The vision and pieces of the Offense didn't change between Seattle and Arizona...it was the same.
So how is this on Garrett?
LBH what type of response are you looking for from anyone in this thread? Its a fan board - are you expecting people to react coldly to both wins and losses?
The Giants scored 17 against the Seahawks and 7 against the Cardinals. Obviously the Seahawk victory was led by the defense, but fans were also happy to see the offense consistently generating push on runs up the middle in the second half. That's how the offense scored. And what does that have to do with scheme? You're one of the worst posters on this forum dude.
Best post on this thread. Especially the last part.
Wow, just wow.
You guys are calling out LBH on his posts, while completely missing his point. Doesn't reflect well on you guys.
Let me spell it our for you. First of all his question is rhetorical. He isn't really expecting a literal answer. LBH is not commenting on the team itself, and looking for folks' response to the team. He is asking a penetrating question to us fans about their own narratives. He is noting that a week ago, there was a group of fans praising everything about the team and especially Gettleman's "vision". A week later they play a bad game, and it's not Gettleman's "vision" that's an issue is the coach. It seems hypocritical to ascribe success primarily to DG and failure primarily to a coach. Seems like those who do that have personal narrative/agenda. He is trying to call that our without being so blunt and confrontational as I just put it. He is making people question their thinking.
It takes being quite obtuse to so completely miss the point of his posts and to call him out for it.
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In comment 15081697 JB_in_DC said:
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In comment 15081691 LBH15 said:
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In comment 15081674 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
they had a shit game, I think that's what happened. Garrett called a very good game against Seattle. In fact, probably his best of the year aside from the Philly win. He called a great game against Tampa. Jones sucked in that game and we probably win by 7 if he can make one of the 5 throws he missed. Called a good game at Washington. The Bengals game was weird, but prior to Jones going down I think the offense was moving the ball well.
We laid an egg against the Cards. It happens. Now, that isn't to say Garrett has been 'good' all year, he hasn't been. But I'm in the camp where he's been better than people say.
I know it happens, but that's not my point. The vision and pieces of the Offense didn't change between Seattle and Arizona...it was the same.
So how is this on Garrett?
LBH what type of response are you looking for from anyone in this thread? Its a fan board - are you expecting people to react coldly to both wins and losses?
The Giants scored 17 against the Seahawks and 7 against the Cardinals. Obviously the Seahawk victory was led by the defense, but fans were also happy to see the offense consistently generating push on runs up the middle in the second half. That's how the offense scored. And what does that have to do with scheme? You're one of the worst posters on this forum dude.
Best post on this thread. Especially the last part.
Wow, just wow.
You guys are calling out LBH on his posts, while completely missing his point. Doesn't reflect well on you guys.
Let me spell it our for you. First of all his question is rhetorical. He isn't really expecting a literal answer. LBH is not commenting on the team itself, and looking for folks' response to the team. He is asking a penetrating question to us fans about their own narratives. He is noting that a week ago, there was a group of fans praising everything about the team and especially Gettleman's "vision". A week later they play a bad game, and it's not Gettleman's "vision" that's an issue is the coach. It seems hypocritical to ascribe success primarily to DG and failure primarily to a coach. Seems like those who do that have personal narrative/agenda. He is trying to call that our without being so blunt and confrontational as I just put it. He is making people question their thinking.
It takes being quite obtuse to so completely miss the point of his posts and to call him out for it.
Mmmmmkay.
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In comment 15081697 JB_in_DC said:
Quote:
In comment 15081691 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15081674 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
they had a shit game, I think that's what happened. Garrett called a very good game against Seattle. In fact, probably his best of the year aside from the Philly win. He called a great game against Tampa. Jones sucked in that game and we probably win by 7 if he can make one of the 5 throws he missed. Called a good game at Washington. The Bengals game was weird, but prior to Jones going down I think the offense was moving the ball well.
We laid an egg against the Cards. It happens. Now, that isn't to say Garrett has been 'good' all year, he hasn't been. But I'm in the camp where he's been better than people say.
I know it happens, but that's not my point. The vision and pieces of the Offense didn't change between Seattle and Arizona...it was the same.
So how is this on Garrett?
LBH what type of response are you looking for from anyone in this thread? Its a fan board - are you expecting people to react coldly to both wins and losses?
The Giants scored 17 against the Seahawks and 7 against the Cardinals. Obviously the Seahawk victory was led by the defense, but fans were also happy to see the offense consistently generating push on runs up the middle in the second half. That's how the offense scored. And what does that have to do with scheme? You're one of the worst posters on this forum dude.
Best post on this thread. Especially the last part.
Wow, just wow.
You guys are calling out LBH on his posts, while completely missing his point. Doesn't reflect well on you guys.
Let me spell it our for you. First of all his question is rhetorical. He isn't really expecting a literal answer. LBH is not commenting on the team itself, and looking for folks' response to the team. He is asking a penetrating question to us fans about their own narratives. He is noting that a week ago, there was a group of fans praising everything about the team and especially Gettleman's "vision". A week later they play a bad game, and it's not Gettleman's "vision" that's an issue is the coach. It seems hypocritical to ascribe success primarily to DG and failure primarily to a coach. Seems like those who do that have personal narrative/agenda. He is trying to call that our without being so blunt and confrontational as I just put it. He is making people question their thinking.
It takes being quite obtuse to so completely miss the point of his posts and to call him out for it.
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand LBH posts.
Its clear that Judge and Garrett are aligned on this. Its why Judge keeps talking about complementary football whenever asked about the offense.
I think Garrett is calling a good offense, and executing the type of game plan that Judge wants
That being said, the only inspired offense I remember seeing this year was the Dallas game. Garrett deserves to be on the hot seat.
I agree 100%. Jones was a different QB last year. I'm not convinced it's Jones play. He seemed more comfortable and confident last year. Can we please stop all these curls to WR's?
Its clear that Judge and Garrett are aligned on this. Its why Judge keeps talking about complementary football whenever asked about the offense.
I think Garrett is calling a good offense, and executing the type of game plan that Judge wants
Mostly agree with this.
I think Garrett/Judge are calling a gameplan that they think could work within the limitations of the talent on the field.
However, if Giants run into games where they fall behind more than 8 or so points then we've got trouble in River City. Not built whatsoever to attack with passing game...only surprise from time to time.
You can say they're running a safe offense, but they're not. The number of 'near misses' because defenders see whats coming from these WRs a mile away is alarming. They're not fooling anyone, and I'm not sure it's 'increased the Giants chances of winning' because it won't work against the teams you need to beat. They've shown they can beat bad teams with it.
What's increased the chances of winning is the defense playing well.
Cripes, man, what would constitute Garrett calling a bad offense? They're 31st in both yards and points.
Would be super interesting if Judge wanted a new QB at the same time.
Would be super interesting if Judge wanted a new QB at the same time.
I would be money he does want a new QB. Garrett's offense has a lot of problems, but it's not the cause of the poor pocket presence, ball security problems, and inability to see the field. These problems existed in Shurmur's offense too.
To me this is a huge litmus test as to how power is delineated in the building.
Would be super interesting if Judge wanted a new QB at the same time.
If that happened then it is the beginning of the end for Judge. Is Mara that dumb? What don't answer that!
What is interesting about Garrett. He played with the Cowboys when they had one of the great Olines in the league. He coached after having put together one of the great lines in the league and had success. Maybe his offensive approach is limited to dominant OL's.
LOL
2020
53 attempts
52.8% 142 Yards 5TD 3 INT
2019
59 Attempts
52.5% 172 Yards 12 TD 0 INT
Quote:
In comment 15081697 JB_in_DC said:
Quote:
In comment 15081691 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15081674 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
they had a shit game, I think that's what happened. Garrett called a very good game against Seattle. In fact, probably his best of the year aside from the Philly win. He called a great game against Tampa. Jones sucked in that game and we probably win by 7 if he can make one of the 5 throws he missed. Called a good game at Washington. The Bengals game was weird, but prior to Jones going down I think the offense was moving the ball well.
We laid an egg against the Cards. It happens. Now, that isn't to say Garrett has been 'good' all year, he hasn't been. But I'm in the camp where he's been better than people say.
I know it happens, but that's not my point. The vision and pieces of the Offense didn't change between Seattle and Arizona...it was the same.
So how is this on Garrett?
LBH what type of response are you looking for from anyone in this thread? Its a fan board - are you expecting people to react coldly to both wins and losses?
The Giants scored 17 against the Seahawks and 7 against the Cardinals. Obviously the Seahawk victory was led by the defense, but fans were also happy to see the offense consistently generating push on runs up the middle in the second half. That's how the offense scored. And what does that have to do with scheme? You're one of the worst posters on this forum dude.
Best post on this thread. Especially the last part.
Wow, just wow.
You guys are calling out LBH on his posts, while completely missing his point. Doesn't reflect well on you guys.
Let me spell it our for you. First of all his question is rhetorical. He isn't really expecting a literal answer. LBH is not commenting on the team itself, and looking for folks' response to the team. He is asking a penetrating question to us fans about their own narratives. He is noting that a week ago, there was a group of fans praising everything about the team and especially Gettleman's "vision". A week later they play a bad game, and it's not Gettleman's "vision" that's an issue is the coach. It seems hypocritical to ascribe success primarily to DG and failure primarily to a coach. Seems like those who do that have personal narrative/agenda. He is trying to call that our without being so blunt and confrontational as I just put it. He is making people question their thinking.
It takes being quite obtuse to so completely miss the point of his posts and to call him out for it.
No LBH sets up a false narrative than wants everyone to respond to it.
I must of missed all the posts saying everything is perfect last week. I did see a lot of joy that the giants finally beat a good team. People have been happy with the Judge hire. Patrick Graham has the defense playing well despite the number of injuries. People were happy because the online is run blocking well. I'm sorry I didn't see anyone claiming the offense was doing well. I didn't see a single post praising Garrett.
You want to see the difference in a good corrodinator and a bad one? Just look at the Giants. Graham has been dealing with a revolving door due to injuries and he has the d playing well. Garrett took an offense that was 19th last season and with basically the same level of talent has them at 31. He has done nothing to put his players in position to play to their strengths. He actually designed an offense that took DJ from the top rated qb throwing down field to last. Not because he sucks at it. His percentage throwing down field is still tops. We just rarely do it.
Look, 31st is 31st, no matter how you spin it, and it isn't good. That has NOTHING to do with "complimentary football". I'm pretty sure that when Judge uses that term, he's not talking about running an offense that can't get out of its own way.
But sure, let's run everything back and hope for better results. There is a term for that...
The facts are what they are, they suck at scoring the football even during a stretch of games where they were average 140 rush yards a game.
Why in God's name is Jason Garrett a magnet for any kind of benefit of the doubt?
Oh, and I don't care whether you respond to it or not.
No LBH sets up a false narrative than wants everyone to respond to it.
I must of missed all the posts saying everything is perfect last week. I did see a lot of joy that the giants finally beat a good team. People have been happy with the Judge hire. Patrick Graham has the defense playing well despite the number of injuries. People were happy because the online is run blocking well. I'm sorry I didn't see anyone claiming the offense was doing well. I didn't see a single post praising Garrett.
You want to see the difference in a good corrodinator and a bad one? Just look at the Giants. Graham has been dealing with a revolving door due to injuries and he has the d playing well. Garrett took an offense that was 19th last season and with basically the same level of talent has them at 31. He has done nothing to put his players in position to play to their strengths. He actually designed an offense that took DJ from the top rated qb throwing down field to last. Not because he sucks at it. His percentage throwing down field is still tops. We just rarely do it. [/quote]
Nailed it
Talkin' Giants has an all-22 breakdown every week for both the offense and the defense that is very accessable regardless of how much you know about the intricacies of the game. He hates Garrett.
Even The QB School on youtube stuck in a jab or two about how bad Garrett's scheme is while evaluating DJ.
And if you don't believe them, ask any Dallas fan what they think about him as OC.
The guy is indefensible, but you don't have to believe me, just watch it fir yourself.
No LBH sets up a false narrative than wants everyone to respond to it.
I must of missed all the posts saying everything is perfect last week. I did see a lot of joy that the giants finally beat a good team. People have been happy with the Judge hire. Patrick Graham has the defense playing well despite the number of injuries. People were happy because the online is run blocking well. I'm sorry I didn't see anyone claiming the offense was doing well. I didn't see a single post praising Garrett.
You want to see the difference in a good corrodinator and a bad one? Just look at the Giants. Graham has been dealing with a revolving door due to injuries and he has the d playing well. Garrett took an offense that was 19th last season and with basically the same level of talent has them at 31. He has done nothing to put his players in position to play to their strengths. He actually designed an offense that took DJ from the top rated qb throwing down field to last. Not because he sucks at it. His percentage throwing down field is still tops. We just rarely do it.
Nailed it [/quote]
So you missed the 1st Do We Owe Gettleman An Apology thread?
And the 2nd one? And you missed all the various posts peppered throughout the week's threads (after the win over the hawks) praising Gettleman?
If you go look, you will find them... They are in the archives.
So please explain to me again the false narrative... I'm not sure I am smart enough to figure that out on my own.
Per my recollection, there were quite a few pretty obnoxious posts trying to shove how great the team is and how great Gettleman's vision is down the throats of fans who don't like DG, and acknowledge but are cautious about the team's overall progress.
Now this week, after this loss, I don't see any of those posters backing off of how great DG and his vision are, and how the team is in the upper echelon of the conference like they said last week. However, we do have threads and posts slamming Garrett...
Which part of that is a "false narrative"? Because, I believe every part of that is independently verifiable by looking back at older threads.
Quote:
No LBH sets up a false narrative than wants everyone to respond to it.
I must of missed all the posts saying everything is perfect last week. I did see a lot of joy that the giants finally beat a good team. People have been happy with the Judge hire. Patrick Graham has the defense playing well despite the number of injuries. People were happy because the online is run blocking well. I'm sorry I didn't see anyone claiming the offense was doing well. I didn't see a single post praising Garrett.
You want to see the difference in a good corrodinator and a bad one? Just look at the Giants. Graham has been dealing with a revolving door due to injuries and he has the d playing well. Garrett took an offense that was 19th last season and with basically the same level of talent has them at 31. He has done nothing to put his players in position to play to their strengths. He actually designed an offense that took DJ from the top rated qb throwing down field to last. Not because he sucks at it. His percentage throwing down field is still tops. We just rarely do it.
Nailed it
So you missed the 1st Do We Owe Gettleman An Apology thread?
And the 2nd one? And you missed all the various posts peppered throughout the week's threads (after the win over the hawks) praising Gettleman?
If you go look, you will find them... They are in the archives.
So please explain to me again the false narrative... I'm not sure I am smart enough to figure that out on my own.
Per my recollection, there were quite a few pretty obnoxious posts trying to shove how great the team is and how great Gettleman's vision is down the throats of fans who don't like DG, and acknowledge but are cautious about the team's overall progress.
Now this week, after this loss, I don't see any of those posters backing off of how great DG and his vision are, and how the team is in the upper echelon of the conference like they said last week. However, we do have threads and posts slamming Garrett...
Which part of that is a "false narrative"? Because, I believe every part of that is independently verifiable by looking back at older threads. [/quote]
Was there any posts on those threads praising Garrett?
It is possible to think that DG has the team heading in the right direction and think that Garrett sucks at OC.
And suggesting it was Gettleman's magic touch that resulted in 4 straight wins including the upset in Seattle but Garrett's incompetence for the loss to Arizona is convenient cherry-picking to serve a personal agenda.
The team has 5 wins folks. This following years of 4 and 5 wins. And we get to play the Washington Football team twice a year.
When are you all going to look and see what it takes to build a consistent winner/potential champion versus crowning Gettleman GM of the Year for finally beating the Eagles in one of their worst years ever?
And I put forth a false narrative? Good grief.
On the flip side despite having an emerging OL, they are the 31st ranked offense in the NFL and significantly less effective than the year before.
But it's preposterous to use him as the fall guy. Just a diversion tactic to take the heat off the sophomore slump Jones is mired in. I guess this is one of the "benefits" of being the 6th pick in the draft...
Because Garrett guy has forgotten more about offense - and has the data with the other teams to prove that - than Judge and Jones combined. The guy knows what he's doing. Do you think Dak's ability to step right in for Romo and produce points was a fluke?
Please...
Jason Garrett or Daniel "DeFumbler" Jones?
I say the latter. By far.
The "DeFumbler" thing is pretty lame. The De_ nomenclature doesn't even fit Jones's name other than it starting with a D. I think you should stop trying to make it catch on.
But it's preposterous to use him as the fall guy. Just a diversion tactic to take the heat off the sophomore slump Jones is mired in. I guess this is one of the "benefits" of being the 6th pick in the draft...
Because Garrett guy has forgotten more about offense - and has the data with the other teams to prove that - than Judge and Jones combined. The guy knows what he's doing. Do you think Dak's ability to step right in for Romo and produce points was a fluke?
Please...
I don't think this is really about "knowing offense". I think there are a lot of coaches out there who know a lot. It doesn't mean that what they know either fits in the league today, or is being put to use well enough.
Again, Garrett got playcalling taken away from him in Dallas in 2019. They brought in someone else to handle offense. The result put Prescott into the discussion for a massive contract extension when before he was looked at as a replaceable part.
But it's preposterous to use him as the fall guy. Just a diversion tactic to take the heat off the sophomore slump Jones is mired in. I guess this is one of the "benefits" of being the 6th pick in the draft...
Agree, but it's the eye-rolling agendas that some try to cling to on this site never ceases to amaze me. The fans of a bottom-feeding team that is basically stuck around 4-5 wins per year with a QB that can't stop giving the ball away and a roster with zero playmakers wants to blame the Offensive Coordinator for its problems.
Win 4 in a row and beat Seattle...Gettleman's vision in now coming into play. Where are the GM of the Year ballots?
Lose badly to ARZ...Garrett's a moron.
How convenient.
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I'm essentially agnostic on Garrett. I can live with keeping him or letting him go.
But it's preposterous to use him as the fall guy. Just a diversion tactic to take the heat off the sophomore slump Jones is mired in. I guess this is one of the "benefits" of being the 6th pick in the draft...
Agree, but it's the eye-rolling agendas that some try to cling to on this site never ceases to amaze me. The fans of a bottom-feeding team that is basically stuck around 4-5 wins per year with a QB that can't stop giving the ball away and a roster with zero playmakers wants to blame the Offensive Coordinator for its problems.
Win 4 in a row and beat Seattle...Gettleman's vision in now coming into play. Where are the GM of the Year ballots?
Lose badly to ARZ...Garrett's a moron.
How convenient.
Yeah, I am neutral with regards to Garrett. I mean if you are going to give Jones a pass for not having the talent around him, shouldn't Garrett be due the same pass, and even moreso, since Jones' shortcomings has been part of the problem this year. It's the same posters who want to give Jones the benefit of the doubt, praise DG, but then turn and trash Garrett.
I'm not quite as down on Jones as some, but that is perhaps a function of necessity. The Giants will be picking in a spot that seems unlikely to produce a worthy QB, there aren't any vets that are worthy, not that I would want the Giants to pay that price... So we are stuck with Jones, so roll with it and hope.
That said, I hate hoping for success. I believe you forge success through smart planning and an iron will. Being reduced to hoping that the #6 pick in the draft finally learns to play his position in his 3rd season is infuriating and an indictment of the guy who brought him here and put the team in a position to depend on him. It's not worthy of praising his "vision" for sure.
Bottom line for me is that I believe all 3 of them share some level of culpability for the poor offense this year. None of them get a pass. However, I don't know just how much blame should be apportioned particularly to Jones and Garrett. DG in my opinion is, of course, a lost cause. Praising DG and Jones and blaming Garrett makes no sense to me.
I don't think this is really about "knowing offense". I think there are a lot of coaches out there who know a lot. It doesn't mean that what they know either fits in the league today, or is being put to use well enough.
Again, Garrett got playcalling taken away from him in Dallas in 2019. They brought in someone else to handle offense. The result put Prescott into the discussion for a massive contract extension when before he was looked at as a replaceable part.
Okay. I don't recall the specifics of that change. I think Garrett has given up play-calling duties a few times in Dallas...?
If you look at Prescott's best seasons, two of the three best QBR results came with Garrett calling the plays. FWIW.
Again, I'm not pro or con Garrett.
He hasn't been dealt the best hand but Jones hasn't lived him to end of his bargain, either.