Allen:
58%
3089 yards
20 TDs
9 Interceptions
14 fumbles
47.9 QBR
85.3 Rate
Jones:
62%
2714 yards
9 tds
9 int
10 fumbles
QBR 63.3
Rate 78.9
Conclusion: as you can see, Allen wasn’t really any better except in TD passes thrown. I didn’t show this but I’m sure Josh Allen scored more tds with his legs too.
The point I want to make is simply this.....Josh Allen took off in year 3, not year 2. Sure his team won 10 games in year 2 while Jones probably wins 6. But Allen’s team primarily won because of their top tier defense, which Jones doesn’t have.
Allen took off when the Bills got him STEFON DIGGS, a true #1 receiver. Let’s watch and then judge Jones if and when we can get him such a toy to play with. Oh, I also think it would help Jones greatly to give him an OC who is creative and not old school like Garrett. After all, Jones did throw for 24 tds and over 300 yards often as a rookie in Shurmur’s offense.
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What should the Bears do with him? They have a winning record with him and his numbers aren’t bad.
If you don’t think Trubisky should be resigned, I assume the view would be the same with Jones in 1-2 years.
Trubisky is generally viewed as a miss, and not a very good player. Interesting to compare his four years to Jones's two:
Trubisky: 50 games (49 starts), 63.6% completions, 4.2% TD, 2.3% INT, .54 fumbles/game, 6.7 Y/A, 6.5 AY/A, 29-20 record as a starter
Jones: 26 games (25 starts), 62.0% completions, 3.7% TD, 2.4% INT, 1.08 fumbles/game, 6.5 Y/A, 6.2 AY/A, 7-18 record as a starter
The numbers speak for themselves.
You bring up a good point. As you know, the Bears got very down on Trub and replaced him for about 5 games with Foles. Trub did not look good before that. Then, all of a sudden, he comes back in and BOOM....HE GETS IT!
This is year 4, not year 2. Why don’t we see by this that sometimes 25 games is not enough to judge a qb, especially one with little talent surrounding him. You have to admit, Trub has many more cute toys to play with than Danny.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
Thank you Ben....glad to know some people “get what we are trying to say” on threads like this one. I guess some people are either too emotional or too caught up in their biases that they can’t listen and reason calmly.
Please Eric, post more. You have great insight. Thanks
Doubles TDs and wins while reducing turnovers. It wasn’t just year 3. He made the jump in year 2 and was significantly better than Jones.
The ‘Process”? Jones is not on the same path. There is no comparison of these guys after year 2 and that doesn’t even consider the clear difference in talent.
20 tds, not 29
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a play, where the defender made a very headsy play (but because he wasn't actually "involved" in the result most people have no idea he made a play) right after he delivers an absolute dime to Tate's dead body for 19 yards for the to tie score. It's bananas! How many times is Allen making that exact throw? Not too many. And I'd 100 percent rather have Allen than DJ, but people just refuse to believe that DJ really has an unbelievable accurate arm with touch. But its not rifle so shrug.
I feel like a lot of people on here almost want him to fail. It’s strange. Give the guy another year and see what he can do with some better receivers. Allen emerged in year 3, Jones has played 25 games.
And if he's still bad next year the Giants will have wasted another 3 years of this "rebuild" and will be starting over, at least at QB. Again.
There's a real danger that making super duper extra sure Jones isn't the guy does nothing but set us back again.
I for one cannot wait to get past this dark stain on the franchise that has been Dave Gettlemans tenure. 5 years from now he'll be remembered like Phil Jackson is by Knicks fans
Comparing Allen and Jones is an exercise in futility, Allen was a raw prospect with very little NFL coaching, who had a world of physical talent. Jones had 4 years of NFL caliber coaching at the position and another year under the NFL qb guru, Pat Shurmur. Allen has gotten better every year since year 1, Jones took a massive step back.
Some of you do not realize that it could take years to find your next franchise guy. You don’t step into the next franchise qb because the dinosaur GM says he found one. The Bills are a great example, how many years between Kelly and Allen? Th Giants could be in for a long time between Manning and the next true franchise guy, and it’s a reality a lot of BBI does not want to face. Right now Jones simply does not look the part.
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29 Tds, 9 INTs. 10 win team.
Doubles TDs and wins while reducing turnovers. It wasn’t just year 3. He made the jump in year 2 and was significantly better than Jones.
The ‘Process”? Jones is not on the same path. There is no comparison of these guys after year 2 and that doesn’t even consider the clear difference in talent.
20 tds, not 29
One reason why I was so enamored with Lamar Jackson. Too bad he didn’t fall into our lap in round 2.
Hey Ron, didn’t you know.....half of BBI just knew he would be an All Pro in his third year immediately after the second year. I guess they knew this because he ran for 9 tds that year. Certainly not because of his passing.
For what it’s worth, I would like anyone who said Allen would be an All Pro in his third year to link an archived thread showing you stated such. I would like to give the credit to those who actually went on record to utter such prophecy.
It seems the predictions on Allen were more measured than that...
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How many games Allen would have won with this Giant roster.
Hey Ron, didn’t you know.....half of BBI just knew he would be an All Pro in his third year immediately after the second year. I guess they knew this because he ran for 9 tds that year. Certainly not because of his passing.
For what it’s worth, I would like anyone who said Allen would be an All Pro in his third year to link an archived thread showing you stated such. I would like to give the credit to those who actually went on record to utter such prophecy.
If it counts for anything I thought Allen was going to be a real good one after watching him last year. He was also my 2nd favorite QB in that draft after Mayfield. On that same vein, I think DJ is on a trajectory to be a good QB as well, maybe not Allens elite ceiling (didn't see that coming) but more like a perennial top 8-12 guy. At the end of the day who knows. I hope I'm underselling it!
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How many games Allen would have won with this Giant roster.
Hey Ron, didn’t you know.....half of BBI just knew he would be an All Pro in his third year immediately after the second year. I guess they knew this because he ran for 9 tds that year. Certainly not because of his passing.
For what it’s worth, I would like anyone who said Allen would be an All Pro in his third year to link an archived thread showing you stated such. I would like to give the credit to those who actually went on record to utter such prophecy.
Lol, I think what probably happened is all of those people that we thought were saying Rosen was going to be great were actually typing Allen and it was mysteriously auto-correcting to Rosen.
What the hell does it have to do with 58 sitting in the passing lane after recognizing the play? If DJ doesn't recognize it, it gets batted down. It's hard to tell if he was in a position to make that play without all 22 but it certainly looks like. DJ did what he could there, when you have OLB's that don't crash and sit on plays, the playcalling is too obvious. Not all on Garrett though, there's only so much we can run down there with this cast. He still almost made the play and with a better throw, he does. Not easy to do moving forward, but I'm impressed he didn't just try to force it in there and recognized it real-time.
What gets lost in the sauce was the previous pass and catch to Tate. Now that was a very nice play on both ends.
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Persistently late getting the ball to the receiver. Look at that aspect of his game. It happens often.
What the hell does it have to do with 58 sitting in the passing lane after recognizing the play? If DJ doesn't recognize it, it gets batted down. It's hard to tell if he was in a position to make that play without all 22 but it certainly looks like. DJ did what he could there, when you have OLB's that don't crash and sit on plays, the playcalling is too obvious. Not all on Garrett though, there's only so much we can run down there with this cast. He still almost made the play and with a better throw, he does. Not easy to do moving forward, but I'm impressed he didn't just try to force it in there and recognized it real-time.
I agree Zeke, I didn’t see it this way until reading your post. This is part of the whole “you need to get Jones some weapons this offseason” argument. When you have legitimate threats that teams have to account for guys like Lewis would be wide open on this play instead of having a linebacker spying the play and forcing a tight throw. I always think back to 2008 after Burress shot himself and our offense basically imploded. That offense was a well oiled machine in terms of the pass and run working with one another. The minute Burress went down teams could stack the box because they had no one to fear on the outside. This is our current predicament and why Jones is not deserving of all the shit he gets on here at the moment.
Just call it what is was - a late delivery.
Yea, I don’t know how we’re ignoring Allen’s 510 rushing yards and 9 TDs. If he put up those numbers this year, we would’ve clinched a playoff spot already.
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In comment 15099670 KWALL2 said:
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29 Tds, 9 INTs. 10 win team.
Doubles TDs and wins while reducing turnovers. It wasn’t just year 3. He made the jump in year 2 and was significantly better than Jones.
The ‘Process”? Jones is not on the same path. There is no comparison of these guys after year 2 and that doesn’t even consider the clear difference in talent.
20 tds, not 29
One reason why I was so enamored with Lamar Jackson. Too bad he didn’t fall into our lap in round 2.
Second round? Lamar should have been our pick at 4. He's better than Barkley at running and Jones at passing. What a disaster that pick was.
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In comment 15099448 gidiefor said:
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chit sandwich he has for skill players on office is talking out of his or her respective ass
How do you know Jones isn't dragging down the rest of the roster?
I can point to specific plays the skill players made where Jones failed to make the right play. I can point to plays where Jones had sufficient time in the pocket, didn't get the ball out, and took a bad sack and fumbled.
It's easy to point at the surrounding cast as the cause, and I agree they aren't great. But that doesn't make Jones good either.
I don't know why so many are so invested in giving him the benefit of the doubt. What has he done to earn it?
Go Terps -- you are a known rip it downer -- so one would expect you to take the off with their heads route given any sort of controversy -- so I'm including you in the gas that is coming out the rear
You really don't know what you are talking about as far as this goes -- you want results and you aren't getting them -- so you'd rather rip it down and start all over -- I get it -- so do most 3 year olds I know
Nice! Now the mods are skipping over the post itself to label and insult the poster! I guess Eric finally scrapped the civility thing and asked the mods to go in a different direction?
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It is not comparing the PLAYER, its comparing the PROCESS.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
Thank you Ben....glad to know some people “get what we are trying to say” on threads like this one. I guess some people are either too emotional or too caught up in their biases that they can’t listen and reason calmly.
Or maybe it’s...GASP...they simply don’t agree with you!
There are plenty of posters on this thread that pointed out additional facts and statistics as a counterpoint to your view. But no, they can’t have a valid point. They must just be dumber than you, or have an agenda. There is just no way any reasonable person could see things differently than you.
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In comment 15099647 Ben in Tampa said:
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It is not comparing the PLAYER, its comparing the PROCESS.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
Thank you Ben....glad to know some people “get what we are trying to say” on threads like this one. I guess some people are either too emotional or too caught up in their biases that they can’t listen and reason calmly.
Or maybe it’s...GASP...they simply don’t agree with you!
There are plenty of posters on this thread that pointed out additional facts and statistics as a counterpoint to your view. But no, they can’t have a valid point. They must just be dumber than you, or have an agenda. There is just no way any reasonable person could see things differently than you.
Not true Mike. I don’t need people to think like I do. What I take issue with are empty words or not presenting an argument t with some merit or making unfounded accusations, like what you posted here.
So let me hold your hand and help you here...
The thread’s purpose was to give us hope to see that just like Allen took off in year 3, so can our boy, Dimes.
But if you noticed, there are some who absolutely don’t like DJ and are already convinced we should move on. These guys absolutely don’t want a year 3 trial and have provided a lot of empty words and illogical arguments to support their case. The ones that kill me are the guys who say....”you can’t make that comparison between these two...”
Ahhhh, why not?
For the record Mike, I don’t care if someone wants DG or DJ gone....fine by me.
In his second year Allen had a good TD/INT ratio, Jones doesn't.
In his second year Allen was winning games and leading his team to the playoffs, meanwhile according to his coach and others here Jones did a good job vs the Ravens, who blew us out, because he was able to "get the ball out". After 20+ games we're still grading Jones on a curve.
There is no comparison between these two players. Stop kidding yourselves.
Just call it what is was - a late delivery.
What are you talking about. He either feignts a rush or recognizes it mid play and just sits on the passing lane. Which is one of the big ways you stop these rub routes down on goal line. Getting your edge into the passing lanes. He didn’t just hesitate out of nowhere and he’s sitting directly in the passing lane! Cmon!
Q: That two-point attempt at the end looked like a well-designed play. What happened and why didn't that execute?
A: It was a great play, a great play call. We have to get the ball out there sooner, too.
The play was there to be made and it's up to Jones to figure out to deliver the pass. I have to imagine Garrett goes over the type of throw that has to be made, and where the defensive players might be on that side. And then they practice to get it right. Otherwise, why run it?
Q: That two-point attempt at the end looked like a well-designed play. What happened and why didn't that execute?
A: It was a great play, a great play call. We have to get the ball out there sooner, too.
The play was there to be made and it's up to Jones to figure out to deliver the pass. I have to imagine Garrett goes over the type of throw that has to be made, and where the defensive players might be on that side. And then they practice to get it right. Otherwise, why run it?
Jones is a disaster and the best thing that Judge can say about him during his banal performance vs Baltimore is "he got the ball out"..
what the fuck? If Judge isn't convinced it is time to get a new QB he is an idiot too. If Judge doesn't see it and press for another QB option he's not the coach for us. How long will this stubbornness and idiocy continue? All these teams are rebuilding in two years before our eyes and we are stuck with a recalcitrant, illogical and immovable regime .
Q: That two-point attempt at the end looked like a well-designed play. What happened and why didn't that execute?
A: It was a great play, a great play call. We have to get the ball out there sooner, too.
The play was there to be made and it's up to Jones to figure out to deliver the pass. I have to imagine Garrett goes over the type of throw that has to be made, and where the defensive players might be on that side. And then they practice to get it right. Otherwise, why run it?
So now post game presses are golden nuggets of information? That’s the QB version of coach speak.
1. Was it a well designed play?
2. Was Lewis open to make the play?
3. Was the throw there to be made?
4. Should Jones have made the throw?
5. And I don't know this, but what do you think was the second option if the throw to Lewis wasn't there?
1. Was it a well designed play?
2. Was Lewis open to make the play?
3. Was the throw there to be made?
4. Should Jones have made the throw?
5. And I don't know this, but what do you think was the second option if the throw to Lewis wasn't there?
After rewatching that more times than I'd like, it was a well-designed play. My initial thoughts were this was on Garrett, but damn that was actually a pretty impressive draw up. Bucs had no chance if Barrett doesn't recognize it. Of course it's pretty easy when you put Lewis in motion like that, but most football players are dumb so kudos to him (really want to see him in blue next year)
Lewis was open to make the play, but it's not an easy throw after the timing got all fucked up. I'm not sure if he could of floated it out there either right off snap, the DB probably in position to make a play considering the angle. It was there to be made late, but like I said once you pump like that and pull it down and then go directly back to same guy, it's like putting a pass at a jump shooter's feet, if that analogy makes sense. But it was there, but very little window with a DB having an angle to close. IMO - second option would have been Shephard crossing at front of goal line. Which is where he probably would have went, but Lewis looked really open, but DB in close and angle.
This isn't saying I don't expect for DJ to make this play moving into the future, he had options here. But he's in his second year and recognizing the one guy who can make the play in the passing lane is impressive. Watch way too many young QBs where they are marching down the field late and then on a critical 3rd/4th down they don't even give their team a chance there. The ball gets batted down and the climax becomes rather anti-climatic.
1. Was it a well designed play?
2. Was Lewis open to make the play?
3. Was the throw there to be made?
4. Should Jones have made the throw?
5. And I don't know this, but what do you think was the second option if the throw to Lewis wasn't there?
bw.. what are you whining about. Based on the latest statements all that matter is that Jones "got the ball out". That's what we're judging him on. Did he get the ball out? Accuracy and playmaking doesn't matter.
It's very strange that you give DJ credit for not making the throw if you admit that the throw is there with the right touch, etc. That's a tough one to reconcile for me.
I asked the last question about other options if Lewis wasn't there because I don't think I saw anything other than Jones possibly running in (which would have been a miracle play) or he just keeps rolling and rolling hoping for someone to break free.
So if you give him "credit" for recognizing Barrett in the passing line then you have to conclude it was a bad decision to make the throw to Lewis, and Jones needed to go to Plans B,C, etc.
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straightforward questions.
1. Was it a well designed play?
2. Was Lewis open to make the play?
3. Was the throw there to be made?
4. Should Jones have made the throw?
5. And I don't know this, but what do you think was the second option if the throw to Lewis wasn't there?
bw.. what are you whining about. Based on the latest statements all that matter is that Jones "got the ball out". That's what we're judging him on. Did he get the ball out? Accuracy and playmaking doesn't matter.
I hear you...LOL. Isn't this place great? ;)
In the future I’ll avoid you.
It's very strange that you give DJ credit for not making the throw if you admit that the throw is there with the right touch, etc. That's a tough one to reconcile for me.
I asked the last question about other options if Lewis wasn't there because I don't think I saw anything other than Jones possibly running in (which would have been a miracle play) or he just keeps rolling and rolling hoping for someone to break free.
So if you give him "credit" for recognizing Barrett in the passing line then you have to conclude it was a bad decision to make the throw to Lewis, and Jones needed to go to Plans B,C, etc.
See I actually thought it was a rub route also originally, but after watching it today it wasn't. It was just schemed up great to get the safety who had zero leverage after Lewis went in motion and why you see him bust ass to get there. What makes that situation dicey about moving to your next read is that technically it's there, but damn thats tough on the QB to make that throw. Pulling the ball down and then making the throw to the sideline without your feet set properly is a high difficulty throw. DJ is not Patrick Mahomes and everything from the Cutcliffe trained QB is based on feet up. Peyton Manning loves to say it - no feet, defeat.
I think he should have went to his next read, but have no idea what the coaches say about that one, I'd imagine the same. But this is where experience matters. This is where your QB needs to play in his sandbox, boom hit the next read with a pinpoint pass to Shep. There's different ways to skin a cat, Mahomes probably makes that throw, Peyton goes to his next read right away after pulling it down and throws a TD to Shep. But this is why people make way too much of the play of 1st and 2nd year QBs who aren't extremely physically gifted or total athletes out there. Also brings up a good point about Lamar. Does he ever learn how to do that? No, because he won't have the experience to draw on. You just don't do things like this overnight.
In the future I’ll avoid you.
Thank you. Probably a good thing to keep harmony on this site.
It's about making plays folks.
It's about making plays folks.
It absolutely is about making that play. When he's in year 4 and beyond and you need to pay him the big bucks. This was what his 20th start? I was pretty down on DJ after week 5, I saw what they were trying to do with him, but he needed to start putting it together and if he didn't show signs then we need to look at QB in this years draft. This 2nd half of the Bucs game was the turning point for me. You could see him to start putting the pieces together.
In 2019 that jumped to 10-6, including 4 fourth quarter comebacks and 5 game winning drives. Bills offense improves to 20 points per game.
Daniel Jones won-loss record has gone from 3-9 to 4-9 in his two years. Point scored dropped from 21 per game to 17. He had 1 fourth qtr comeback and 2 game winning drives in 2019, and NONE so far in 2020.
So do you really want to conclude Josh Allen didn't specifically make the Bills team much better in his second year, and that his second year wasn't a success?
And can you even remotely suggest the same about Jones' second year?
5Bowls - you never responded to this earlier post. Let me know what you think.
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Josh Allen's won-loss record 2018 was 5-6, including 2 fourth quarter comebacks and 3 game winning drives. The Bills offense averaged 17 points per game.
In 2019 that jumped to 10-6, including 4 fourth quarter comebacks and 5 game winning drives. Bills offense improves to 20 points per game.
Daniel Jones won-loss record has gone from 3-9 to 4-9 in his two years. Point scored dropped from 21 per game to 17. He had 1 fourth qtr comeback and 2 game winning drives in 2019, and NONE so far in 2020.
So do you really want to conclude Josh Allen didn't specifically make the Bills team much better in his second year, and that his second year wasn't a success?
And can you even remotely suggest the same about Jones' second year?
5Bowls - you never responded to this earlier post. Let me know what you think.
Sorry...well, let me see, there are over 220 posts on this thread....Yikes...I hope it is t too far from this post.
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Josh Allen's won-loss record 2018 was 5-6, including 2 fourth quarter comebacks and 3 game winning drives. The Bills offense averaged 17 points per game.
In 2019 that jumped to 10-6, including 4 fourth quarter comebacks and 5 game winning drives. Bills offense improves to 20 points per game.
Daniel Jones won-loss record has gone from 3-9 to 4-9 in his two years. Point scored dropped from 21 per game to 17. He had 1 fourth qtr comeback and 2 game winning drives in 2019, and NONE so far in 2020.
So do you really want to conclude Josh Allen didn't specifically make the Bills team much better in his second year, and that his second year wasn't a success?
And can you even remotely suggest the same about Jones' second year?
5Bowls - you never responded to this earlier post. Let me know what you think.
You arguably showed Allen’s second year was more successful in that he was able to make 4th q comebacks....something DJ has not done. That is a very good point too. Don’t think I’m happy with this either. I’m a Giant fan fist and foremost, not a DJ fan. I agree....DJ definitely needs to improve in this regard....let’s see how he does in year 3. And yes, I’m very discouraged about DJ’s overall performance this year but it’s not just him. We all know what the other factors are hindering his growth.
But again, the comparison I’ve been making is simply....it is clear Allen improved in year 2 and DJ has regressed, except in turnovers, but Allen clearly has taken off in year 3 after the bills got him STEFON DIGGS, A TRUE #1 WR. Plus, he has been working with a highly respected OC for 3 years. Unlike DJ who is working with a not so respected OC in Garrett, and has not had the continuity Allen has had, and clearly doesn’t have a 1 WR.
I would like to see DJ’s 3rd year under a much better OC who will allow DJ to excel much like he did in his rookie year.
I really wasn’t comparing Allen v DJ to see who has been better...I think some guys think that erroneously. But I clearly would agree....DJ had a better year 1 than Allen and Allen had a better year 2. Allen has a great year 3.....I can’t wait to see DJ’s.
And this thread contains a fair amount of data and underlying rational that supports that Year 2 improvement for Allen.
Your thesis that Year 3 is when, and really only when, Allen improved. And therefore Giants fans need to give Jones that benefit of doubt and wait until Year 3 before we decide on him.
Jones may very well get that Year 3 but I would suggest to your thesis shouldn't be the reason why. Allen's improvement has been much more noticeable, aligned to the cumulative number of games he has started at QB, and is displayed in almost all of his respective stats, including the ones that are truly compelling such as wins and touchdowns scored. Jones' is not.
Jones regression in Year 2 versus Year 1 in many, not all, of the areas you want to see in a QB develop is disconcerting.
Year 3 could yield an entirely different Jones but that would be independent of what you are trying to show here.
Nearly all of them - Marino, Peyton, Eli, Elway, Brady, Montana, Bradshaw, Kelly, etc - showed a pattern by improving in their second year. That improvement was either more TDs, less INT, improved completion %, YPA, Rating, etc.
There were a few outliers, like Favre, Aikman, Brees, but by and large the second year is where the lights start to go on and you can see hope on the horizon.