Allen:
58%
3089 yards
20 TDs
9 Interceptions
14 fumbles
47.9 QBR
85.3 Rate
Jones:
62%
2714 yards
9 tds
9 int
10 fumbles
QBR 63.3
Rate 78.9
Conclusion: as you can see, Allen wasn’t really any better except in TD passes thrown. I didn’t show this but I’m sure Josh Allen scored more tds with his legs too.
The point I want to make is simply this.....Josh Allen took off in year 3, not year 2. Sure his team won 10 games in year 2 while Jones probably wins 6. But Allen’s team primarily won because of their top tier defense, which Jones doesn’t have.
Allen took off when the Bills got him STEFON DIGGS, a true #1 receiver. Let’s watch and then judge Jones if and when we can get him such a toy to play with. Oh, I also think it would help Jones greatly to give him an OC who is creative and not old school like Garrett. After all, Jones did throw for 24 tds and over 300 yards often as a rookie in Shurmur’s offense.
Or wide open dropped potential td passes or multiple dropped end zone tds..
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Or wide open dropped potential td passes or multiple dropped end zone tds..
Like you, I watch the Giants more often and more closely than any other team. So I can't say for certain that other teams have this tragedy befall them, but I suspect all QBs have TDs dropped, and still throw more TDs than DJ has.
But if it is a more prevalent issue among Giants receivers, I guess that's another feather in the cap of that tremendous GM we have building the roster!
Your expertise on DJ is impressive
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In comment 15099157 Greg from LI said:
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Or wide open dropped potential td passes or multiple dropped end zone tds..
Like you, I watch the Giants more often and more closely than any other team. So I can't say for certain that other teams have this tragedy befall them, but I suspect all QBs have TDs dropped, and still throw more TDs than DJ has.
But if it is a more prevalent issue among Giants receivers, I guess that's another feather in the cap of that tremendous GM we have building the roster!
Of course it happens. We absolutely need upgraded WRs
And let's not even get into the difference in athleticism or the rocket launcher Allen is packing.
All posters are doing launching into these comparisons is embarrassing themselves.
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I'm sure next season when Jones doesn't sniff Allen's 3rd year there will be plenty of new excuses and alternate comparisons.
Your expertise on DJ is impressive
If we're going to make year to year comparisons, Jones better get to that level.
My recollection is that Allen was pitched as a project while Jones was supposed to be close to pro ready.
And let's not even get into the difference in athleticism or the rocket launcher Allen is packing.
All posters are doing launching into these comparisons is embarrassing themselves.
It really is embarrassing.
More evidence most posters either don't watch other players or don't know what they are watching...
Different Head Coach.
Different OC.
Rookies all over the OL.
No training camp this year.
Loses his best RB.
No one to throw the ball to of note.
I personally think we need to give this coaching staff and our young players the benefit of a training camp and more coaching from this current staff before we start tearing it down again.
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In comment 15099161 rsjem1979 said:
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I'm sure next season when Jones doesn't sniff Allen's 3rd year there will be plenty of new excuses and alternate comparisons.
Your expertise on DJ is impressive
If we're going to make year to year comparisons, Jones better get to that level.
Get him a healed SB back and receiver upgrades and he will, I believe..If he doesn’t than he may not be too long for this team.
Or you could simply look at the progress each made from year one to year two. Allen went from 10 passing TDs to 20, while bringing INTs down from 12 to 9. Jones went from 24/12 to 9/9.
So the takeaway is if you want to look at stats, Allen improved significantly from year 1 to year 2, while Jones regressed.
The trajectories they are both on could not be more dissimilar.
In 2019 that jumped to 10-6, including 4 fourth quarter comebacks and 5 game winning drives. Bills offense improves to 20 points per game.
Daniel Jones won-loss record has gone from 3-9 to 4-9 in his two years. Point scored dropped from 21 per game to 17. He had 1 fourth qtr comeback and 2 game winning drives in 2019, and NONE so far in 2020.
So do you really want to conclude Josh Allen didn't specifically make the Bills team much better in his second year, and that his second year wasn't a success?
And can you even remotely suggest the same about Jones' second year?
I agree with this statement. He needs to make strides next season or we need to make another move. I do think the coaching changes have really hampered him this season. Sophomore slumps are also not uncommon in the NFL.
In terms of the comparison with Allen, I think there are a lot of factors that make it almost impossible to do. Allen has had coaching stability, and a much better D to rely on early in his career. I feel like the Giants would be well served to follow the Bills blueprint of getting a few playmakers this offseason but I don’t expect the Giants to be as good as the Bills are this year next season. We are probably two years away from that potential.
If you believe Jones will make a massive improvement next year that’s fine. It may absolutely happen. But Josh Allen is not a precedent to point to which informs us about that likelihood.
If you believe Jones will make a massive improvement next year that’s fine. It may absolutely happen. But Josh Allen is not a precedent to point to which informs us about that likelihood.
I know. I foolishly entered into the fray..My bad
i agree!
Allen's third year would have been considerably different without Stefon Diggs. Let's see what weapons the Giants give Jones for year 3.
Or you could simply look at the progress each made from year one to year two. Allen went from 10 passing TDs to 20, while bringing INTs down from 12 to 9. Jones went from 24/12 to 9/9.
So the takeaway is if you want to look at stats, Allen improved significantly from year 1 to year 2, while Jones regressed.
The trajectories they are both on could not be more dissimilar.
Very well said - the last sentence in particular underscores the overall point.
I agree with this post. To be honest, I don't even think he's a game manager though.
Isn't it your duty as a game manager to not fuck up the game, limit throws but make them when you have to, have a good run game (yeah, Jones has legs) and keep the ball safe, from turnovers?
He does anything but keep the ball safe and doesn't do the best job in the world avoiding game costly turnovers.
I do like using him as a runner. There are a couple problems though:
1. He doesn't seem to read the option particularly well. There have been several times he should have pulled out down and kept it that he didn't, and the running back got buried.
2. He's an effective runner in accepted plays that get him going downhill quickly. He isn't creating pass opportunities much with his legs, or making plays off schedule.
If Jones is going to be the quarterback the offense had to be designed to get him out of the pocket, reading half the field, and moving towards the LOS. He can't, repeat can't, be kept in the pocket with any regularity.
He can't play from the pocket.
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While I don’t think for a minute that he’s anything more than a game manager, I understand giving him ‘21. Now after what will be a third year next season, is it unreasonable to expect 25-30 tds? Or do we keep waiting for the 6th pick to develop?
I agree with this post. To be honest, I don't even think he's a game manager though.
Isn't it your duty as a game manager to not fuck up the game, limit throws but make them when you have to, have a good run game (yeah, Jones has legs) and keep the ball safe, from turnovers?
He does anything but keep the ball safe and doesn't do the best job in the world avoiding game costly turnovers.
Lately he’s been better in the turnover department, to be fair. The knock I have against him is he doesn’t make enough plays. Get him a better cast next year and see how he does. If he stays healthy for 14 or more games, throws for maybe 3500 yards and tosses 25-30 tds like I said above, then you have a case for moving forward with him. Just as long as we see some clutch play late in close games that at the very least put the team in position to tie/win games. Don’t make those numbers hollow by padding in garbage time. Anything less than that, and you need to go in a different direction in 2022. Gun to my head, in all honesty, I think Judge and Company go QB shopping in the spring of 2022. I don’t think Jones is good enough to meet my proposed parameters.
But I think there are 2 main differences.
The 1st difference is that Jones' sophomore season is a clear step down from his rookie season. Whereas Josh Allen clearly improved in his 2nd year. This is a major difference between their perceived trajectories which is why Bills' fans were more optimistic than we are in our QB after Year 2.
The 2nd difference is that Josh Allen possessed obvious physical traits that indicated a high ceiling. His size stood out on TV from day 1, he was a big boy with a rocket arm who could move really well. I dislike Big Ben as a person but I enjoyed his playstyle when he was younger, Allen didn't brush off defenders in the same way but his size and mobility definitely made you think about that comparison a bit. The upside was obvious with Allen.
The upside is a little less obvious for Jones. Although I'm down on Jones to the point that I wouldn't mind another QB next year, I'm probably higher on his upside that most of his other doubters. The "Danny Dimes" nickname might've been forced, but he really did throw a decent amount of really impressive passes as a rookie that made you overlook the other flaws. But in terms of overall raw talent and untapped potential, he doesn't stand out like Allen did. And his mental shortcomings (pre-snap issues, eyes locking onto his primary targets, terrible pocket awareness) really hurts him in my eyes since his physical traits aren't standout.
I hope he turns into an MVP candidate like Josh Allen, but I don't think it's a fair comparison at this point based on what both QBs showed through 2 years.
exactly, dude has franchise qb written all over him....i was banging the table to draft him back in 18....but noooo we took a fucking running back
That wasn't the case against Tampa. Slayton was open deep the whole game.
Barkley had one injury in college, a high ankle sprain that I think he missed two games for. He was not injury prone when he was drafted. And Allen was rated by most “experts” behind Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen.
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being a game manager and only being able to throw the ball 10 yards to anyone because nobody is open downfield, and you don't have all day to throw.
That wasn't the case against Tampa. Slayton was open deep the whole game.
He's a 1 read qb, doesnt know how to read the field and extend the play....pretty much a broke mans Eli Manning
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we could of had Josh allen the qb and Josh Alllen the pass rusher....instead we got a beat down rb and a qb no where near the level of Bills Josh Allen
Barkley had one injury in college, a high ankle sprain that I think he missed two games for. He was not injury prone when he was drafted. And Allen was rated by most “experts” behind Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen.
Well I wish I can shoiw you my posts, I came from an older giants forum that got deleted where me and another guy was arguing which is better Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson...saquan was no where near the conversation. Should I bring up Sy's evaluation of Josh allen? a real scouts opinion would be interesting
You have no idea what I believe in Jonjes. Put Pat Mohomes in Giants and Jones in Chiefs i bet you everything that Jones would have 30+ TDs and Mahomes would have 15-.....Jones defently needs recievers
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In comment 15099275 Danny Dimes said:
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we could of had Josh allen the qb and Josh Alllen the pass rusher....instead we got a beat down rb and a qb no where near the level of Bills Josh Allen
Barkley had one injury in college, a high ankle sprain that I think he missed two games for. He was not injury prone when he was drafted. And Allen was rated by most “experts” behind Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen.
Well I wish I can shoiw you my posts, I came from an older giants forum that got deleted where me and another guy was arguing which is better Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson...saquan was no where near the conversation. Should I bring up Sy's evaluation of Josh allen? a real scouts opinion would be interesting
I’m not doubting that you or Sy or other people liked Allen. I’m just saying that 1.) Barkley did not have a significant injury history when he was drafted and 2.) Allen was not regarded by the majority as being the best QB in the draft. It wasn’t a situation where it was an obvious choice between Barkley and Allen that year. If I remember correctly Allen had some shoulder issues in college that scared some teams.
But Jones has no where near the talent of Josh Allen, have you seen him jumping over people? what QB does that
But I think there are 2 main differences.
The 1st difference is that Jones' sophomore season is a clear step down from his rookie season. Whereas Josh Allen clearly improved in his 2nd year. This is a major difference between their perceived trajectories which is why Bills' fans were more optimistic than we are in our QB after Year 2.
The 2nd difference is that Josh Allen possessed obvious physical traits that indicated a high ceiling. His size stood out on TV from day 1, he was a big boy with a rocket arm who could move really well. I dislike Big Ben as a person but I enjoyed his playstyle when he was younger, Allen didn't brush off defenders in the same way but his size and mobility definitely made you think about that comparison a bit. The upside was obvious with Allen.
The upside is a little less obvious for Jones. Although I'm down on Jones to the point that I wouldn't mind another QB next year, I'm probably higher on his upside that most of his other doubters. The "Danny Dimes" nickname might've been forced, but he really did throw a decent amount of really impressive passes as a rookie that made you overlook the other flaws. But in terms of overall raw talent and untapped potential, he doesn't stand out like Allen did. And his mental shortcomings (pre-snap issues, eyes locking onto his primary targets, terrible pocket awareness) really hurts him in my eyes since his physical traits aren't standout.
I hope he turns into an MVP candidate like Josh Allen, but I don't think it's a fair comparison at this point based on what both QBs showed through 2 years.
Allen's first year is very interesting because the improvement really started to manifest in the second half. He was actually the second leading rusher in the NFL for the last two months of that season. He finished the year with 630 rushing yards and 8 rushing TDs.
And after a very rough start as a passer, he finished on a more promising note. For FY '18, he had 10 TDs/12INTs. But in the last 8 games he had 8 TDs/5 INTs. So there were some positive signs that he was starting to get it...
And he's more of a scrambler than Jones. Jones can run, but Allen can scramble. A scrambler is much more dangerous.
While the post snap processing isn’t great with DJ it’s not so awful that it isn’t hard to imagine it will look much better down the line and especially with some better skill players. The presnap stuff isn’t horrific, he’s missing a line call and misdiagnosing or two here, but that’s another thing that isn’t so bad it isn’t hard to fathom. There’s a reason BB is dominant against rookie and 2nd year QBs. He confuses the hell out of them presnap.
The ball security has been better, the ball has been higher, with one notable exception. When he takes off to run he drops his hands, which is hard to beat out of guys. Anyone notice the difference between the interceptions last year and this year because I certainly do. Last year it was showing poor reads, poor anticipation, and taking the bait. Saw a couple of those early in the year, but the majority of his picks are his WRs gifting them to the other team.
The TDs are down mostly because it was pretty clear to me what they wanted to do with him this year in early weeks. They wanted to clean up the decision making which caused lots of hesitation which ironically caused a few picks early. The decision making has been pretty good lately but we just don’t have the horses. He needs help which in IMO is going to lessen the load on him moving forward.
DJ isn’t a great athlete by NFL standards, but he’s fast as fuck. With a healthy Saquon we are going to see a lot more man. Get some guys that can win their 1 v 1 matchups and let DJ torch them with his legs when the focus is on Saquon intermittently in run game and if they don’t want to spy him in pass game with some actual weapons that need attention. This will help keep him healthy as well.
As early as week 6 I started catching next years QB class, but something clicked for him in 2nd half of TB and I imagine the coaching staff saw it too. He’s starting to put all the pieces together. Next year we’ll have our answer if he’s the guy moving forward.
It's very likely that Jones will be the 2021 opening day starter. But what many of use are seeing in his game makes me wonder if we are going to be experiencing a full-scale QB controversy by next October or November. If Jones continues to play like he is currently, Judge will see his very career threatened by an underperforming QB and may bench him.
So in terms of BBI controversy, you ain't seen nothing yet.
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In comment 15099292 eric2425ny said:
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In comment 15099275 Danny Dimes said:
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we could of had Josh allen the qb and Josh Alllen the pass rusher....instead we got a beat down rb and a qb no where near the level of Bills Josh Allen
Barkley had one injury in college, a high ankle sprain that I think he missed two games for. He was not injury prone when he was drafted. And Allen was rated by most “experts” behind Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen.
Well I wish I can shoiw you my posts, I came from an older giants forum that got deleted where me and another guy was arguing which is better Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson...saquan was no where near the conversation. Should I bring up Sy's evaluation of Josh allen? a real scouts opinion would be interesting
I’m not doubting that you or Sy or other people liked Allen. I’m just saying that 1.) Barkley did not have a significant injury history when he was drafted and 2.) Allen was not regarded by the majority as being the best QB in the draft. It wasn’t a situation where it was an obvious choice between Barkley and Allen that year. If I remember correctly Allen had some shoulder issues in college that scared some teams.
I agree bro, I have a saquan jersey and only one I trust will be in the team 5+ years from now. Im a conspiracy therist and firmly believe saquan just opted out this year. He will come back way stronger next year and Giants let him sit out. Give that beast an OL and its home runs every fucking play. I love Barkley
The biggest thing I see is he is extremely confident. Moves in the pocket, sets his feet and lets it rip it tight windows.
Jones I think is lacking in this area. Confidence and trust to let it rip sometimes. I think also some of these longer sideline passes are trying to protect this flaw.
LOL
It's very likely that Jones will be the 2021 opening day starter. But what many of use are seeing in his game makes me wonder if we are going to be experiencing a full-scale QB controversy by next October or November. If Jones continues to play like he is currently, Judge will see his very career threatened by an underperforming QB and may bench him.
So in terms of BBI controversy, you ain't seen nothing yet.
Yep, it's coming. Pre-draft discussions will be interesting as well if lose on sunday and move up in the draft order.
I find it so funny how many QB experts on this board. Pre-snap reads quoted by many who have no fucking idea what that means but it sounds good. Like quoting trust the science even though you have zero idea what the SCIENCE actually is. It is funny though how a fairly apt comparrison gets ripped apart becauase you don't like the guy the comparison is supporting so you knock it completely. Some of the arguments against the comparison actually show how much making a definitive statement about someone, just 2 years in can be so wrong..
#1- Many of you here were 100% against the Giants even considering Allen back in 2018 as the 2nd pick in the draft. You had Darnold above him, Rosen was a choice by many here and even Mayfield was a popular choice amongst a small but very vocal group. The idea was Allen couldn't hit the broadside of the barn and his cannon arm was the only reason he was even being considered in the first round.
Now many of you are using the fact that he wasn't trained by a QB guru and didn't have the pro friendly offense as an excuse for his first two years and that he has developed now in year 3.
#2- The talk about athleticism and the fact that Allen has more TDs on the ground than JOnes. Hmmm.. So you are now saying that Allen is a better QB because he scores more TDs than Jones. I would think the fact that he has Diggs, Beasley, Gabriel (draft pick who has played well), a completely revamped Oline that has played very well and he is playing in the same system for his 3rd year in a row may have something to do with that. But, that doesn't fit your narrative so that is ignored. I suspect if Allen had our WR corps and was on his 2nd pro system in 2 years he wouldn't have as many TD passes (for sure) and probbaly ,ess rushing TDs as well.
Jones has been hampered by a completely shit system passing wise this year , along with the WORST WR's group in the NFL! His best weapon and one the would have freed him up more was lost in the first half of game 2 for the season. His rushing TDs include 1 TD called back on holding and the trip and fall on an 80 yard fucking run that many here like to joke about but who most of you couldn't even run 80 yards period! Do I wish he had scored, of course I do. But, I am pretty thrilled he is such a threat that when healthy teams have to game plan against him. Now imagine that same option play with Barkley in the backfield.
I get it, some of you want Jones gone.One of you in this thread has made slight comments (in other threads) that the Giants were racist for not drafting Lamar Jackson. Others wanted Herbert this year (and honestly, if we didn't have Jones I am sure he would have been the choice) but, we already drafted our QB. The crowd that want Trevor Lawrence was in full throat until week 10. We have a QB who has shown he can play and has shown he is a dual threat when healthy. We need other parts and he needs time to develop. If you jettison him now are full on rebuild again as we haven't even finished this rebuild.
Jones next season will be a 67% or higher comp % QB, with 30 plus TDs passing and 5 plus TDs rushing assuming Barkley is healthy and we sign and or draft a few weapons on offense!
New OC and no training camp to get up to speed
Horrible OL play for the majority of the year
Horrible WR play the entire year
Below average RB for nearly the whole year
At least some of those things will be better next year.
The big issue with Jones in consistency. We've seen him make amazing throws and quick decisions, but we've also seen him (sometimes in the same game) make inaccurate throws, wrong reads or hold the ball way too long.
If he is more consistent in 2021, coupled with some better OL and skill position play he will be a good QB.
If he is still inconsistent even after a full preseason, then I don't think he ever will be.
And nobody here understands what a pre and post-snap read is? If you have watched football for more than a year or two you know what they are. So do the announcers - many ex NFL QBs - who make the same criticism.
Nobody - including you - knows what Jones will be next year. But so far you are the only one posting his stats for 2021.
I find it so funny how many QB experts on this board. Pre-snap reads quoted by many who have no fucking idea what that means but it sounds good. Like quoting trust the science even though you have zero idea what the SCIENCE actually is. It is funny though how a fairly apt comparrison gets ripped apart becauase you don't like the guy the comparison is supporting so you knock it completely. Some of the arguments against the comparison actually show how much making a definitive statement about someone, just 2 years in can be so wrong..
#1- Many of you here were 100% against the Giants even considering Allen back in 2018 as the 2nd pick in the draft. You had Darnold above him, Rosen was a choice by many here and even Mayfield was a popular choice amongst a small but very vocal group. The idea was Allen couldn't hit the broadside of the barn and his cannon arm was the only reason he was even being considered in the first round.
Now many of you are using the fact that he wasn't trained by a QB guru and didn't have the pro friendly offense as an excuse for his first two years and that he has developed now in year 3.
#2- The talk about athleticism and the fact that Allen has more TDs on the ground than JOnes. Hmmm.. So you are now saying that Allen is a better QB because he scores more TDs than Jones. I would think the fact that he has Diggs, Beasley, Gabriel (draft pick who has played well), a completely revamped Oline that has played very well and he is playing in the same system for his 3rd year in a row may have something to do with that. But, that doesn't fit your narrative so that is ignored. I suspect if Allen had our WR corps and was on his 2nd pro system in 2 years he wouldn't have as many TD passes (for sure) and probbaly ,ess rushing TDs as well.
Jones has been hampered by a completely shit system passing wise this year , along with the WORST WR's group in the NFL! His best weapon and one the would have freed him up more was lost in the first half of game 2 for the season. His rushing TDs include 1 TD called back on holding and the trip and fall on an 80 yard fucking run that many here like to joke about but who most of you couldn't even run 80 yards period! Do I wish he had scored, of course I do. But, I am pretty thrilled he is such a threat that when healthy teams have to game plan against him. Now imagine that same option play with Barkley in the backfield.
I get it, some of you want Jones gone.One of you in this thread has made slight comments (in other threads) that the Giants were racist for not drafting Lamar Jackson. Others wanted Herbert this year (and honestly, if we didn't have Jones I am sure he would have been the choice) but, we already drafted our QB. The crowd that want Trevor Lawrence was in full throat until week 10. We have a QB who has shown he can play and has shown he is a dual threat when healthy. We need other parts and he needs time to develop. If you jettison him now are full on rebuild again as we haven't even finished this rebuild.
Jones next season will be a 67% or higher comp % QB, with 30 plus TDs passing and 5 plus TDs rushing assuming Barkley is healthy and we sign and or draft a few weapons on offense!
This is well written and I remember the questions about Allen’s accuracy. If I remember correctly it seemed like half the board was enamored with Rosen.
The link below details Allen’s shoulder injury while in college. This is one of the reasons he wasn’t drafted in the top 5.
Link - ( New Window )
It's very likely that Jones will be the 2021 opening day starter. But what many of use are seeing in his game makes me wonder if we are going to be experiencing a full-scale QB controversy by next October or November. If Jones continues to play like he is currently, Judge will see his very career threatened by an underperforming QB and may bench him.
So in terms of BBI controversy, you ain't seen nothing yet.
cosmicj...this is what I've been saying. Jones starts 2021, but I'm not surprised if he's on a different team as a backup in 2022.
My answer, no and if that was the case, the Giants would have drafted Herbert last year. The Giants will wait a year too long before deciding to move on from Jones and will set the team back another 4 years
I partly get the point but where he was drafted suggests his untapped upside in theory. I know that “potential” shouldn’t be the default answer but I agree with it in part. I would have liked to have seen more from him by the end of year 2 but I also realize the shit sandwich we’ve been so it’s a conundrum (for me as a fan). I trust Judges evaluation and just have to hope for the best on whatever the decision is in why to do at QB moving forward.
Yes.
Who's with me?
Allen's supporting cast last season was much better than what Jones had this year IN JUST ABOUT EVERY RESPECT. Better receivers. Better O-line. Better running game due to better blocking. Better defense. Better special teams.
Jones needs another season that starts with a full run of camps to settle the OL plus some significantly better receivers to mature and show what he can do.
Haha. I saw that too. Say what?
Allen's supporting cast last season was much better than what Jones had this year IN JUST ABOUT EVERY RESPECT. Better receivers. Better O-line. Better running game due to better blocking. Better defense. Better special teams.
Sounds like they must have a better GM too.
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If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?
Yes.
Who's with me?
To answer that question a little differently...If Jones were a UDFA, every mock draft would have us taking a QB.
Jones was picked #6 because of his potential. He will get a longer leash to prove himself like Eli did. But at some point the body of evidence available has to outweigh potential.
Touchdowns matter, probably more importantly than any of the other stats.
Allen is Elway way on steroids while Jones will be lucky to reach Alex Smith territory. Unfortunately for the Giants and fans
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If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?
I partly get the point but where he was drafted suggests his untapped upside in theory. I know that “potential” shouldn’t be the default answer but I agree with it in part. I would have liked to have seen more from him by the end of year 2 but I also realize the shit sandwich we’ve been so it’s a conundrum (for me as a fan). I trust Judges evaluation and just have to hope for the best on whatever the decision is in why to do at QB moving forward.
What untapped upside is there, really? This isn't Mahomes or Allen, players who were described out of college as hugely talented but unpolished. The book on Jones coming out was that he was well coached, mechanically polished (this has borne out not to be true), and about as prepared for the college to pro transition as you could be. There's no massive physical talent there that hasn't yet been unlocked.
I don't see anything in Jones that's untapped.
I just don’t understand the argument that he hasn’t shown enough to be the QB next year. And he’s shown progress throughout the season with clearly a different mandate from Judge than Shurmur. Shurmur pretty much just let him go out there and let it rip and it resulted in a lot more QB responsible interceptions. You can talk stats all day, but you put year 2 Allen in this offense and they don’t look much better and I’m
Someone that’s liked Allen a ton since the draft and he has potential of being number 2 to Mahomes for a long time.
I think he'd get the chance to compete if he had these same two years under his belt. Plus...
1. Very inexpensive as a UDFA. So we could still hit paydirt.
2. Does have interesting skills that fit the modern game.
3. NFL experience.
Furthermore, I think the narrative of "he needs more help to see what we actually have" would be more tolerable because of the UFDA status. I mean, there had to be some really good reasons why he wasn't drafted, and most likely he didn't have the ability to elevate the play of others...
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In comment 15099382 Go Terps said:
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If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?
I partly get the point but where he was drafted suggests his untapped upside in theory. I know that “potential” shouldn’t be the default answer but I agree with it in part. I would have liked to have seen more from him by the end of year 2 but I also realize the shit sandwich we’ve been so it’s a conundrum (for me as a fan). I trust Judges evaluation and just have to hope for the best on whatever the decision is in why to do at QB moving forward.
What untapped upside is there, really? This isn't Mahomes or Allen, players who were described out of college as hugely talented but unpolished. The book on Jones coming out was that he was well coached, mechanically polished (this has borne out not to be true), and about as prepared for the college to pro transition as you could be. There's no massive physical talent there that hasn't yet been unlocked.
I don't see anything in Jones that's untapped.
I like the Bills and will be rooting for them to win it all.
If there's a QB in the draft this April worth picking, and the cost isn't prohibitive, Jones's existence shouldn't preclude that. Assuming we're 50/50 to win/lose this weekend, that means a 50% chance that we pick 8th as a worst case scenario -- no one else wins to help us move up the draft order. It's likely one of Wilson or Lance is there at 8th. If we move up the order, the odds increase that it's both.
But just like when we drafted Jones, you don't draft a QB just to replace Jones with anyone. That's how we got into this mess in the first place.
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In comment 15099278 ryanmkeane said:
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being a game manager and only being able to throw the ball 10 yards to anyone because nobody is open downfield, and you don't have all day to throw.
That wasn't the case against Tampa. Slayton was open deep the whole game.
He's a 1 read qb, doesnt know how to read the field and extend the play....pretty much a broke mans Eli Manning
You don’t know what your watching. Go watch this past Sundays game. Tell me he’s a one read QB. Fans who never played the game have no idea what a quick hitting route is. We started off the game with stick routes. That’s a Garret staple. That is a one read throw. You just throw the ball to the opposite shoulder of the defender. That is a one read throw. Jesus I get so annoyed reading how jones doesn’t go through progressions. He does very well with one of the worst lines in the nfl. Follow a new sport or educate yourself
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In comment 15099382 Go Terps said:
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If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?
I partly get the point but where he was drafted suggests his untapped upside in theory. I know that “potential” shouldn’t be the default answer but I agree with it in part. I would have liked to have seen more from him by the end of year 2 but I also realize the shit sandwich we’ve been so it’s a conundrum (for me as a fan). I trust Judges evaluation and just have to hope for the best on whatever the decision is in why to do at QB moving forward.
What untapped upside is there, really? This isn't Mahomes or Allen, players who were described out of college as hugely talented but unpolished. The book on Jones coming out was that he was well coached, mechanically polished (this has borne out not to be true), and about as prepared for the college to pro transition as you could be. There's no massive physical talent there that hasn't yet been unlocked.
I don't see anything in Jones that's untapped.
You might be right. Not really an easy answer, I’ll leave it to the coaches. Doesn’t make for a good discussion but it is what it is.
Allen's supporting cast last season was much better than what Jones had this year IN JUST ABOUT EVERY RESPECT. Better receivers. Better O-line. Better running game due to better blocking. Better defense. Better special teams.
Jones needs another season that starts with a full run of camps to settle the OL plus some significantly better receivers to mature and show what he can do.
Finally!!!! A fan who knows what the fuck he’s watching.
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In comment 15099289 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15099278 ryanmkeane said:
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being a game manager and only being able to throw the ball 10 yards to anyone because nobody is open downfield, and you don't have all day to throw.
That wasn't the case against Tampa. Slayton was open deep the whole game.
He's a 1 read qb, doesnt know how to read the field and extend the play....pretty much a broke mans Eli Manning
You don’t know what your watching. Go watch this past Sundays game. Tell me he’s a one read QB. Fans who never played the game have no idea what a quick hitting route is. We started off the game with stick routes. That’s a Garret staple. That is a one read throw. You just throw the ball to the opposite shoulder of the defender. That is a one read throw. Jesus I get so annoyed reading how jones doesn’t go through progressions. He does very well with one of the worst lines in the nfl. Follow a new sport or educate yourself
I respect that. Hopefully you right. I just wish he had the offenseive weapons chiefs do to shut down the haters
How do you know Jones isn't dragging down the rest of the roster?
I can point to specific plays the skill players made where Jones failed to make the right play. I can point to plays where Jones had sufficient time in the pocket, didn't get the ball out, and took a bad sack and fumbled.
It's easy to point at the surrounding cast as the cause, and I agree they aren't great. But that doesn't make Jones good either.
I don't know why so many are so invested in giving him the benefit of the doubt. What has he done to earn it?
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If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?
I think he'd get the chance to compete if he had these same two years under his belt. Plus...
1. Very inexpensive as a UDFA. So we could still hit paydirt.
2. Does have interesting skills that fit the modern game.
3. NFL experience.
Furthermore, I think the narrative of "he needs more help to see what we actually have" would be more tolerable because of the UFDA status. I mean, there had to be some really good reasons why he wasn't drafted, and most likely he didn't have the ability to elevate the play of others...
That’s the point SY was making. Your expectations of what a second year QB can do are preposterous. 2nd year QBs, regardless of how elite they are, turn out to be, or draft status, aren’t elevating this cast of characters. Put 2nd year Allen in this offense missing it’s only difference maker and the stats aren’t looking much better.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
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Holy shit, have you watched Allen play? FFS
exactly, dude has franchise qb written all over him....i was banging the table to draft him back in 18....but noooo we took a fucking running back
I love this kind of hindsight.
Someone bring up the archives.
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chit sandwich he has for skill players on office is talking out of his or her respective ass
How do you know Jones isn't dragging down the rest of the roster?
I can point to specific plays the skill players made where Jones failed to make the right play. I can point to plays where Jones had sufficient time in the pocket, didn't get the ball out, and took a bad sack and fumbled.
It's easy to point at the surrounding cast as the cause, and I agree they aren't great. But that doesn't make Jones good either.
I don't know why so many are so invested in giving him the benefit of the doubt. What has he done to earn it?
Go Terps -- you are a known rip it downer -- so one would expect you to take the off with their heads route given any sort of controversy -- so I'm including you in the gas that is coming out the rear
You really don't know what you are talking about as far as this goes -- you want results and you aren't getting them -- so you'd rather rip it down and start all over -- I get it -- so do most 3 year olds I know
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
Jones was Eli's pick. Eli and Peyton was at duke every offseason training him. Jones isnt DG fault. Im damn sure he wouldnt pick him but the Maras and Mannings said to do it
What you don't know could fill a fucking book, man. You're not someone whose posts I seek out.
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Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
Jones was Eli's pick. Eli and Peyton was at duke every offseason training him. Jones isnt DG fault. Im damn sure he wouldnt pick him but the Maras and Mannings said to do it
Jones was forced on the Giants by the Mannings and the Barkley injury is fake. Dude...
I think he'd get the chance to compete if he had these same two years under his belt. Plus...
1. Very inexpensive as a UDFA. So we could still hit paydirt.
2. Does have interesting skills that fit the modern game.
3. NFL experience.
Furthermore, I think the narrative of "he needs more help to see what we actually have" would be more tolerable because of the UFDA status. I mean, there had to be some really good reasons why he wasn't drafted, and most likely he didn't have the ability to elevate the play of others...
That’s the point SY was making. Your expectations of what a second year QB can do are preposterous. 2nd year QBs, regardless of how elite they are, turn out to be, or draft status, aren’t elevating this cast of characters. Put 2nd year Allen in this offense missing it’s only difference maker and the stats aren’t looking much better.
If believing that a "lottery pick", especially a QB, is supposed to be a difference maker and game changer, then yes I am guilty of being preposterous.
But I will continue to insist the QB isn't just 1/11th of the offense; and thus he can only be as good as his surrounding parts. I just expect more.
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In comment 15099470 Go Terps said:
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Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
Jones was Eli's pick. Eli and Peyton was at duke every offseason training him. Jones isnt DG fault. Im damn sure he wouldnt pick him but the Maras and Mannings said to do it
Jones was forced on the Giants by the Mannings and the Barkley injury is fake. Dude...
Barkley injury? Has nothing toi do with Jones pick. Why arent the Mannings at Duke Practicing any more now? I guess your blind ass thinks its all coincidience
These have gone viral on BBI now for the last couple weeks and I haven't seen one that has even remotely hit their intended mark yet.
These threads have become as ridiculous as the comparisons some on BBI like to entertain on Aaron Rodgers vs Eli Manning from time to time when they get nostalgic.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
There is no logical reason Gettleman should be brought back. If you are on team 'DJ needs weapons' then DG has absolutely failed to surround a QB with the tools he needs to succeed. If you are on team 'DJ is a bust' then DG needs to go for picking him 6th.
Either way, the common denominator is DG.
What you don't know could fill a fucking book, man. You're not someone whose posts I seek out.
Once again twisting and contorting the facts to suit your view of the word -- if you are not seeking out my posts -- why are you reading and responding to them? Your comments on their face lack credibility
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If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?
My answer, no and if that was the case, the Giants would have drafted Herbert last year. The Giants will wait a year too long before deciding to move on from Jones and will set the team back another 4 years
Waiting a year too long is the Giants MO
Anyway, hopefully he throws 5 tds Sunday.
Anyway, hopefully he throws 5 tds Sunday.
I hope so. I want a fucking home playoff game.
I've been DYING to like Jones. DYING. I'm waiting for a reason.
If you believe Jones will make a massive improvement next year that’s fine. It may absolutely happen. But Josh Allen is not a precedent to point to which informs us about that likelihood.
This this and more this. Every situation is different yet all we do here is conjure up some other qb in some other city. Comparing jones to one qb to fit into a narrative is just fucking stupid. Compare him to the history of the nfl QB is how this works but for some it’s way too difficult and complicated. Take the easy low hanging fruit route and blast DJ and DJ while you’re at it. So much easier. And stupid. And worthless.
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And “skews” his numbers. Some here would spin it that way don’t deny it.
Anyway, hopefully he throws 5 tds Sunday.
I hope so. I want a fucking home playoff game.
I've been DYING to like Jones. DYING. I'm waiting for a reason.
It really is all about this. We need to win big games. We need to see how jones can do in a big game when everything is imperfect around him but right there for the taking. I don’t care about 5 wins or 8 wins or what happened last week. I care about Sunday.
It’s all right there for us. Go out and prove something even it’s it’s just one game against an average Dallas team. We have a chance to end the season on a winning note, wash away the last 3 games to some extent.
I don’t know, maybe I’m putting way too much on this coming game but I am placing a lot on Sunday. I think it’s fair to do so.
This game would help me go a long way to liking jones if he simply wins the game while helping the cause.
These have gone viral on BBI now for the last couple weeks and I haven't seen one that has even remotely hit their intended mark yet.
These threads have become as ridiculous as the comparisons some on BBI like to entertain on Aaron Rodgers vs Eli Manning from time to time when they get nostalgic.
I really beg some of you to go whine on another thread that suits your interests and stay away from our threads. Obviously some of us want to discuss this and we don’t see these comparisons as flawed.
Isn’t there enough I hate DG threads for you to dump on?
who had better weapons?
who had better coaching?
The shit is getting old..
1. Stronger back up QB next year due to his durability concerns.
2. A true honest evaluation of Jones after the season. The only way Jones should get significant second contract money is if he’s a game changer who makes all of his teammates better. Not someone who manages the game, that can be replaced via the draft.
After next year, we will have more than enough of a sample size to see what kind of player this is.
As for Jones, how about going out there and having another Tampa type game from *last* year. Keep eyes down the field, extend the play and move the ball down field. I’ll even take a repeat of the second Philly game where Jones had a very efficient game.
How about Jones carry the Giants to a win Sunday? Is that fair?
Are you dense? How can you say there can be no comparison here? Why can’t we compare Jones with Allen after both second years? After last year, I didn’t hear anyone saying Allen is an all pro. I posted his numbers....do they look great? No, it has only been because of Allen’s performance this year that he is now getting all this recognition....certainly not after years 1 and 2.
Other than his rushing yards and rushing tds, his passing was mediocre. So, I see no reason why a comparison can be made to show similarity with Jones and to show year 3 could also be year Jones takes off....if he gets a STEFON Diggs and has a bona fide OC.
Allen is an MVP player. He’s carrying the team and making players only guys like Mahomes and Rodgers make. 2 weeks ago the Bills pull kumerow off the streets and Allen rips a TD to the guy that very few could make. He’s cut the next week, Allen makes the other guys better, it isn’t the other way around with a QB (hellO Goff) putting up numbers because of his teammates or scheme.
Jones? Had a promising rookie year but his talent doesn’t compare to Allen. This year was awful but they should give him more time. Give him one more year. Use the resources to get the guy some talent around him for 2021.
If you don’t think Trubisky should be resigned, I assume the view would be the same with Jones in 1-2 years.
Also, Allen in year 2 made a big jump. He took care of the ball, scro4d a lot more, offense was more efficient, and they won a lot of games. From 5 wins in ur 1 to 10 in year 2.
Year 2 for Jones was a clear regression even with the issues with surrounding talent. Jones was not a good player this year. No comparison to Allen at the same stage.
I’m not judging him until he has weapons. I mean Eli had Burress, Toomer, Shockey, Tiki Barber, and an excellent line in his second year. Not to mention a terrific defense featuring the likes of Michael Strahan and Osi. Same story with Josh Allen. They give him Diggs and Gabriel along with further development and coaching continuity and he made a huge leap in year 3.
Jones? Had a promising rookie year but his talent doesn’t compare to Allen. This year was awful but they should give him more time. Give him one more year. Use the resources to get the guy some talent around him for 2021.
Kev - what position(s) and players wiuld you target to put the right kind of talent around Jones?
Allen is an MVP player. He’s carrying the team and making players only guys like Mahomes and Rodgers make. 2 weeks ago the Bills pull kumerow off the streets and Allen rips a TD to the guy that very few could make. He’s cut the next week, Allen makes the other guys better, it isn’t the other way around with a QB (hellO Goff) putting up numbers because of his teammates or scheme.
Jones? Had a promising rookie year but his talent doesn’t compare to Allen. This year was awful but they should give him more time. Give him one more year. Use the resources to get the guy some talent around him for 2021.
Gabriel Davis was a fourth round pick and has 6 TD’s this year. I’d say that’s a solid player.
If you don’t think Trubisky should be resigned, I assume the view would be the same with Jones in 1-2 years.
It is a dilemma many teams face. They probably strongly think that he will not get them to a championship unless they have a superb defense or team around him and then it is still a big longshot. Picking someone new does not change that. Good players get old, hurt, etc. Then you are constantly firing coaches, GM's....there is a reason why so many teams never win a championship or haven't in a eternity...it is exceptionally hard and you need some luck.
Reid is a great example where it worked it. He recognized he had a good team and good but QB that was a longshot to go the distance and he made a bold move....extreme rarity that that move ever works out.
So two options you have but there is downsides to both cases I think.
Jones in year 2: 10 TDs
Both guys make an impact with their running, you should include the rushing TDs. Allen has 9 last year.
If you watch his throws earlier, they were not that accurate in Y1 or Yr2. He's improved.
I think Jones looks more accurate when given time. He shows some of the same poor decisions that Allen did earlier. They both can run.
If Jones is going to go into a new year with another coordinator it will be hard to evaluate him. He needs consistency, like Allen, a good #1 WR and better health.
Let's see what he can do next year.
If you don’t think Trubisky should be resigned, I assume the view would be the same with Jones in 1-2 years.
Trubisky is generally viewed as a miss, and not a very good player. Interesting to compare his four years to Jones's two:
Trubisky: 50 games (49 starts), 63.6% completions, 4.2% TD, 2.3% INT, .54 fumbles/game, 6.7 Y/A, 6.5 AY/A, 29-20 record as a starter
Jones: 26 games (25 starts), 62.0% completions, 3.7% TD, 2.4% INT, 1.08 fumbles/game, 6.5 Y/A, 6.2 AY/A, 7-18 record as a starter
The numbers speak for themselves.
2.) John Brown
3.) Cole Beasley
4.) Gabriel Davis
Here are Jones’ weapons:
1.) Old Golden Tate
2.) Evan “the Enigma” Engram
3.) Darius Slayton
4.) Sterling Shepard who can never stay healthy
And I’m pretty sure Singletary/Moss is equivalent or superior to Gallman/Morris. I mean Barkley has essentially missed the entire season so I’m not even including him in this.
I’m not saying Jones is better than Allen, or that he will be, but he’s flashed enough (particularly rookie year) to get a shot next year and probably in 2022 as well.
Trubisky has Allen Robinson, how's he doing?
6 TD’s for a fourth round rookie is pretty impressive. I don’t care who his QB is. I’m not calling him a JAG at this point. There are guys that play with Mahomes and Rodgers that are not putting up numbers like that.
In FA, I would like Curtis Samuel, Galloway, and Chris Godwin.
Steelers will probably let Shuster go. You may be able to get him at a good price since his numbers are down. But he’s very young. He’s tough,
We need some size and speed. Galloway gets hurt a lot but he’s the ideal player for this team.
Josh Reynolds from the Rams could be a good bargain for a young player. He’s got some size too.
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of talking up Daniel Jones in your minds by using flawed comparisons to Josh Allen.
These have gone viral on BBI now for the last couple weeks and I haven't seen one that has even remotely hit their intended mark yet.
These threads have become as ridiculous as the comparisons some on BBI like to entertain on Aaron Rodgers vs Eli Manning from time to time when they get nostalgic.
I really beg some of you to go whine on another thread that suits your interests and stay away from our threads. Obviously some of us want to discuss this and we don’t see these comparisons as flawed.
Isn’t there enough I hate DG threads for you to dump on?
Stay away from "our" threads?
And no, never enough DG threads to suit my taste.
Brown had 400 yards and 2 TD’s in the first half of the season. He also had 1,090 yards and 6 TD’s last year. He is hurt the rest of this year yes, but he’s better than any receiver on our team right now when he was healthy. Slayton may reach that point eventually.
Agree to disagree on Gabriel. That guy is going to be a solid #2 receiver for them for quite some time. He’s 6’2, 210 pounds and is a possession type receiver which is why he has so many TD’s. He’s not a burner who creates tons of separation.
But trying to convince the doubters they shouldn’t speak with such certainty about Jones not being the guy is an exercise in futility
They rail against the “excuse makers” while at the same time jumping on every mistake Jones makes as evidence their narrative is correct, or jumping on every good play any other quarterback makes as more evidence that Jones stinks.
Me, I see the same mistakes made by Jones in other games, by quarterbacks all over the league
I see the athleticism of this guy, his arm, work ethic, demeanor, remember the struggle of Simms and Eli, and think, maybe he ll be the guy.
But trying to convince the doubters they shouldn’t speak with such certainty about Jones not being the guy is an exercise in futility
They rail against the “excuse makers” while at the same time jumping on every mistake Jones makes as evidence their narrative is correct, or jumping on every good play any other quarterback makes as more evidence that Jones stinks.
Me, I see the same mistakes made by Jones in other games, by quarterbacks all over the league
I see the athleticism of this guy, his arm, work ethic, demeanor, remember the struggle of Simms and Eli, and think, maybe he ll be the guy.
Well said. I think people forget how bad Simms and Eli looked early on. The Giants were 11-5 in Eli’s second year because of Tiki and the defense. That was a very strong roster that year.
I agree to an extent, but there are two specific plays that come to mind this year that literally cost them games. 1.) Dipshit Engram dropping that perfect pass against the Eagles that would have sealed the game and 2.) that awful play call to throw a flat pass to Dion Lewis that should have been pass interference. That play call also exemplifies our weapons issue. The fact that our go to guy in that moment was Dion Lewis speaks volumes.
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Let me say I like Jones I hope he makes it. Put aside stats, strengths and character and ask how many times with the game on the line has Daniel Jones led the team to victory? I remember several times with the game on the line, his actions cost the game. But, I can only think of one game where he led the team to victory and unfortunately with that win the Giants lost Chase Young
I agree to an extent, but there are two specific plays that come to mind this year that literally cost them games. 1.) Dipshit Engram dropping that perfect pass against the Eagles that would have sealed the game and 2.) that awful play call to throw a flat pass to Dion Lewis that should have been pass interference. That play call also exemplifies our weapons issue. The fact that our go to guy in that moment was Dion Lewis speaks volumes.
That "awful play call" would have been an easy 2 point conversion if Jones had thrown the ball on time.
The throw was both late and inaccurate.
This play is a good example of why he's been so poor in the redzone:
- The ball must be thrown when Lewis is at about the 2 yard line. Jones waits until Lewis is in the endzone.
- The ball must be thrown out in front of Lewis, leading him to the pylon. The ball is thrown to his back shoulder.
Indecisive. Inaccurate.
Link - ( New Window )
The throw was both late and inaccurate.
Relying on your third RB to catch a timing route with the game on the line doesn’t seem like the ideal play call. Regardless, it should have been pass interference anyway. The point is that I would like to see Jones have some weapons that teams have to account for in situations like that. Name one receiver that any defensive coordinator is afraid of on our team right now. That’s why we stall out in the red zone all the time.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
So you don’t like DG but that has nothing to do with Jones. I read your posts regularly but how can you truly evaluate Jones when the supporting cast has won so little talent.
Watch the link I provided. Pause it at 14:31. Lewis is wide open...there are about 5 yards of separation between him and the TB safety. It was man coverage across the board.
Jones is supposed to throw his receivers open. On this crucial play he threw his receiver into coverage.
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Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
So you don’t like DG but that has nothing to do with Jones. I read your posts regularly but how can you truly evaluate Jones when the supporting cast has won so little talent.
Their lack of talent at WR was obvious at draft time. But we couldn’t pass on a much needed offensive tackle to take CeeDee Lamb for example. It’s a shame we had so many needs because this was a good WR draft. Gettleman has followed the same model the Bills have been following (not surprising since the Bills GM used to work with him). Build up the offensive and defensive lines, get your QB and then get your playmakers. The only reason he took Barkley a few years ago is because Barkley was the best all around RB prospect to come out in a long time (before McCaffrey reached his current level).
Signings like Tate were just band aids to get us through the rebuild years. I’m sure they will be loading up at WR this offseason. Then we can really see what we have with Jones.
Watch the link I provided. Pause it at 14:31. Lewis is wide open...there are about 5 yards of separation between him and the TB safety. It was man coverage across the board.
Jones is supposed to throw his receivers open. On this crucial play he threw his receiver into coverage.
I’ve seen the play a million times. I’m not saying that Jones couldn’t complete that pass, but I still think it’s a crap play call with the game on the line. I am personally not a big Dion Lewis fan, he’s like Shane Vereen part 2.
What I don't get is that you fail to realize he has played 25 NFL games. It's like you automatically think a kid who is 23 is supposed to be good at everything regarding the position of QB.
That play against Tampa, while bad, is not a reason to just say Jones won't be a very good NFL quarterback. If he's still doing that in year 3 or 4, then yes, he's going to be limited as a QB.
It's like saying a wide receiver who struggles early on can't be a great wide receiver. Same thing applies to Jones. You need to just relax and give it some fucking time man.
What I don't get is that you fail to realize he has played 25 NFL games. It's like you automatically think a kid who is 23 is supposed to be good at everything regarding the position of QB.
That play against Tampa, while bad, is not a reason to just say Jones won't be a very good NFL quarterback. If he's still doing that in year 3 or 4, then yes, he's going to be limited as a QB.
It's like saying a wide receiver who struggles early on can't be a great wide receiver. Same thing applies to Jones. You need to just relax and give it some fucking time man.
In terms of throwing people open, etc. the OP’s post is very relevant. Allen completed 58% of his passes in year 2, Jones is at 62%. Many Bills fans were not convinced about Allen prior to this season because of his inconsistency, particularly his inaccuracy. Huge turnaround this season.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
I find it quite humorous that some of those who defend Jones by sighting the lack of talent of the OL and skill position players, are also staunch defenders of Gettleman and the job he's done here.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
+1
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Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
I find it quite humorous that some of those who defend Jones by sighting the lack of talent of the OL and skill position players, are also staunch defenders of Gettleman and the job he's done here.
This rebuild was a total gut job. This offseason will be focused on playmakers. They had to get the lines right first which it seems like we are well on our way to doing.
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Dion Lewis is an 8 year veteran who entered this season with 172 receptions.
Watch the link I provided. Pause it at 14:31. Lewis is wide open...there are about 5 yards of separation between him and the TB safety. It was man coverage across the board.
Jones is supposed to throw his receivers open. On this crucial play he threw his receiver into coverage.
I’ve seen the play a million times. I’m not saying that Jones couldn’t complete that pass, but I still think it’s a crap play call with the game on the line. I am personally not a big Dion Lewis fan, he’s like Shane Vereen part 2.
How is it a crap call if he is open?
Nobody cares if you aren't a Lewis fan...the GM signed him and the coaches played him. Oh, and he got open on the play so he did his job there.
Good lord.
This play is a good example of why he's been so poor in the redzone:
- The ball must be thrown when Lewis is at about the 2 yard line. Jones waits until Lewis is in the endzone.
- The ball must be thrown out in front of Lewis, leading him to the pylon. The ball is thrown to his back shoulder.
Indecisive. Inaccurate.
Yes it happens. But when he threw Shepherd open last week he got criticized for locking onto his first read.
Veteran quarterbacks every week make bad throws
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Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
I find it quite humorous that some of those who defend Jones by sighting the lack of talent of the OL and skill position players, are also staunch defenders of Gettleman and the job he's done here.
More sad that they can't even keep their many agendas straight so they don't box themselves into corners.
The real "crafty" ones started posting about their indifference to Gettleman earlier this year. In case they needed an exit strategy.
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In comment 15099470 Go Terps said:
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Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
I find it quite humorous that some of those who defend Jones by sighting the lack of talent of the OL and skill position players, are also staunch defenders of Gettleman and the job he's done here.
This rebuild was a total gut job. This offseason will be focused on playmakers. They had to get the lines right first which it seems like we are well on our way to doing.
You really think we're "well on our way" to fixing the OL? Sure they had a 3 game stretch where they looked okay but they certainly haven't looked good lately.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
To me, this is false because it assumes Jones and Allen have the same skill sets. And they don't. Allen is the more gifted.
I don't know how anyone can watch Allen in 2019, his 2nd year, and say something like, "Gee, that guy is different. He's wild and goes off-script, but there is a lot there if the light ever goes on..."
Do you watch Jones and say anything similar to yourself?
Doubles TDs and wins while reducing turnovers. It wasn’t just year 3. He made the jump in year 2 and was significantly better than Jones.
The ‘Process”? Jones is not on the same path. There is no comparison of these guys after year 2 and that doesn’t even consider the clear difference in talent.
He has so many TDs because of the QB.
He won’t be a #2. When Brown comes back he’s back to the bench.
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In comment 15099650 BlueVinnie said:
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In comment 15099470 Go Terps said:
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Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
I find it quite humorous that some of those who defend Jones by sighting the lack of talent of the OL and skill position players, are also staunch defenders of Gettleman and the job he's done here.
This rebuild was a total gut job. This offseason will be focused on playmakers. They had to get the lines right first which it seems like we are well on our way to doing.
You really think we're "well on our way" to fixing the OL? Sure they had a 3 game stretch where they looked okay but they certainly haven't looked good lately.
I think we are close. These guys are young with the exception of Zeitler. This is the best line we have had in quite some time. Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates look to be mainstays. Hernandez will have one more year to prove it (probably at right guard) and Peart has shown promise.
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Dion Lewis is an 8 year veteran who entered this season with 172 receptions.
Watch the link I provided. Pause it at 14:31. Lewis is wide open...there are about 5 yards of separation between him and the TB safety. It was man coverage across the board.
Jones is supposed to throw his receivers open. On this crucial play he threw his receiver into coverage.
I’ve seen the play a million times. I’m not saying that Jones couldn’t complete that pass, but I still think it’s a crap play call with the game on the line. I am personally not a big Dion Lewis fan, he’s like Shane Vereen part 2.
Just when I thought I'd seen every possible excuse for Jones's poor play, here we are blaming the play-caller for creating a wide open receiver on one of the easiest throws a QB can make.
The play worked, absolutely and unequivocally. Jones fucked it up twice. First by patting the ball 5 times and throwing it late, and subsequently by throwing it poorly. If he can't make that throw, what are we even talking about here?
In the game in Tampa last year, Jones showed some magic. He was playing loose and just going for it. Granted that Tampa D was atrocious, but Jones looked the part.
This play is a good example of why he's been so poor in the redzone:
- The ball must be thrown when Lewis is at about the 2 yard line. Jones waits until Lewis is in the endzone.
- The ball must be thrown out in front of Lewis, leading him to the pylon. The ball is thrown to his back shoulder.
Indecisive. Inaccurate.
Listen thats exactly where that ball needs to go. But 58 is the one really making the play here. He is sitting on the passing lane because he knows exactly what we are running and recognizes it right away. It's what causes the hesitation in the play and why its a failure. Not sure if he makes the play or not, but he is certainly in position to do so. This is exactly what happened there and definetly not a fucking indictment on why we are bad in the redzone.
I feel like a lot of people on here almost want him to fail. It’s strange. Give the guy another year and see what he can do with some better receivers. Allen emerged in year 3, Jones has played 25 games.
I'm all for hyperbole, but do you really feel comfortable writing that?
To me, "unbelievable accurate" is when I watch a guy like Rodgers and I'm actually surprised when he misses.
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a play, where the defender made a very headsy play (but because he wasn't actually "involved" in the result most people have no idea he made a play) right after he delivers an absolute dime to Tate's dead body for 19 yards for the to tie score. It's bananas! How many times is Allen making that exact throw? Not too many. And I'd 100 percent rather have Allen than DJ, but people just refuse to believe that DJ really has an unbelievable accurate arm with touch. But its not rifle so shrug.
I'm all for hyperbole, but do you really feel comfortable writing that?
To me, "unbelievable accurate" is when I watch a guy like Rodgers and I'm actually surprised when he misses.
Not unbelievable accurate, should change that to very accurate. When I watch DJ in that department, I actually see a lot of Aaron Rogers game in there. Rogers had 3 years to work on his throwing to sitting on bench just working on it. We really have no idea what he would have looked like in his first 3 years, which is a tough one, because he's the best QB in a generation.
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In comment 15099698 Zeke's Alibi said:
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a play, where the defender made a very headsy play (but because he wasn't actually "involved" in the result most people have no idea he made a play) right after he delivers an absolute dime to Tate's dead body for 19 yards for the to tie score. It's bananas! How many times is Allen making that exact throw? Not too many. And I'd 100 percent rather have Allen than DJ, but people just refuse to believe that DJ really has an unbelievable accurate arm with touch. But its not rifle so shrug.
I'm all for hyperbole, but do you really feel comfortable writing that?
To me, "unbelievable accurate" is when I watch a guy like Rodgers and I'm actually surprised when he misses.
Not unbelievable accurate, should change that to very accurate. When I watch DJ in that department, I actually see a lot of Aaron Rogers game in there. Rogers had 3 years to work on his throwing to sitting on bench just working on it. We really have no idea what he would have looked like in his first 3 years, which is a tough one, because he's the best QB in a generation.
Ive always wondered that about Rodgers. How would he have panned out if he came in right away. I am sure there are a lot of QB’s who may have ended up being terrific players if they had a few years to learn. David Carr always seems like a guy whose career was destroyed by coming in right away on a team with an abysmal line. He took so many hits he was basically shell shocked after a while.
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What should the Bears do with him? They have a winning record with him and his numbers aren’t bad.
If you don’t think Trubisky should be resigned, I assume the view would be the same with Jones in 1-2 years.
Trubisky is generally viewed as a miss, and not a very good player. Interesting to compare his four years to Jones's two:
Trubisky: 50 games (49 starts), 63.6% completions, 4.2% TD, 2.3% INT, .54 fumbles/game, 6.7 Y/A, 6.5 AY/A, 29-20 record as a starter
Jones: 26 games (25 starts), 62.0% completions, 3.7% TD, 2.4% INT, 1.08 fumbles/game, 6.5 Y/A, 6.2 AY/A, 7-18 record as a starter
The numbers speak for themselves.
You bring up a good point. As you know, the Bears got very down on Trub and replaced him for about 5 games with Foles. Trub did not look good before that. Then, all of a sudden, he comes back in and BOOM....HE GETS IT!
This is year 4, not year 2. Why don’t we see by this that sometimes 25 games is not enough to judge a qb, especially one with little talent surrounding him. You have to admit, Trub has many more cute toys to play with than Danny.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
Thank you Ben....glad to know some people “get what we are trying to say” on threads like this one. I guess some people are either too emotional or too caught up in their biases that they can’t listen and reason calmly.
Please Eric, post more. You have great insight. Thanks
Doubles TDs and wins while reducing turnovers. It wasn’t just year 3. He made the jump in year 2 and was significantly better than Jones.
The ‘Process”? Jones is not on the same path. There is no comparison of these guys after year 2 and that doesn’t even consider the clear difference in talent.
20 tds, not 29
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a play, where the defender made a very headsy play (but because he wasn't actually "involved" in the result most people have no idea he made a play) right after he delivers an absolute dime to Tate's dead body for 19 yards for the to tie score. It's bananas! How many times is Allen making that exact throw? Not too many. And I'd 100 percent rather have Allen than DJ, but people just refuse to believe that DJ really has an unbelievable accurate arm with touch. But its not rifle so shrug.
I feel like a lot of people on here almost want him to fail. It’s strange. Give the guy another year and see what he can do with some better receivers. Allen emerged in year 3, Jones has played 25 games.
And if he's still bad next year the Giants will have wasted another 3 years of this "rebuild" and will be starting over, at least at QB. Again.
There's a real danger that making super duper extra sure Jones isn't the guy does nothing but set us back again.
I for one cannot wait to get past this dark stain on the franchise that has been Dave Gettlemans tenure. 5 years from now he'll be remembered like Phil Jackson is by Knicks fans
Comparing Allen and Jones is an exercise in futility, Allen was a raw prospect with very little NFL coaching, who had a world of physical talent. Jones had 4 years of NFL caliber coaching at the position and another year under the NFL qb guru, Pat Shurmur. Allen has gotten better every year since year 1, Jones took a massive step back.
Some of you do not realize that it could take years to find your next franchise guy. You don’t step into the next franchise qb because the dinosaur GM says he found one. The Bills are a great example, how many years between Kelly and Allen? Th Giants could be in for a long time between Manning and the next true franchise guy, and it’s a reality a lot of BBI does not want to face. Right now Jones simply does not look the part.
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29 Tds, 9 INTs. 10 win team.
Doubles TDs and wins while reducing turnovers. It wasn’t just year 3. He made the jump in year 2 and was significantly better than Jones.
The ‘Process”? Jones is not on the same path. There is no comparison of these guys after year 2 and that doesn’t even consider the clear difference in talent.
20 tds, not 29
One reason why I was so enamored with Lamar Jackson. Too bad he didn’t fall into our lap in round 2.
Hey Ron, didn’t you know.....half of BBI just knew he would be an All Pro in his third year immediately after the second year. I guess they knew this because he ran for 9 tds that year. Certainly not because of his passing.
For what it’s worth, I would like anyone who said Allen would be an All Pro in his third year to link an archived thread showing you stated such. I would like to give the credit to those who actually went on record to utter such prophecy.
It seems the predictions on Allen were more measured than that...
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How many games Allen would have won with this Giant roster.
Hey Ron, didn’t you know.....half of BBI just knew he would be an All Pro in his third year immediately after the second year. I guess they knew this because he ran for 9 tds that year. Certainly not because of his passing.
For what it’s worth, I would like anyone who said Allen would be an All Pro in his third year to link an archived thread showing you stated such. I would like to give the credit to those who actually went on record to utter such prophecy.
If it counts for anything I thought Allen was going to be a real good one after watching him last year. He was also my 2nd favorite QB in that draft after Mayfield. On that same vein, I think DJ is on a trajectory to be a good QB as well, maybe not Allens elite ceiling (didn't see that coming) but more like a perennial top 8-12 guy. At the end of the day who knows. I hope I'm underselling it!
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How many games Allen would have won with this Giant roster.
Hey Ron, didn’t you know.....half of BBI just knew he would be an All Pro in his third year immediately after the second year. I guess they knew this because he ran for 9 tds that year. Certainly not because of his passing.
For what it’s worth, I would like anyone who said Allen would be an All Pro in his third year to link an archived thread showing you stated such. I would like to give the credit to those who actually went on record to utter such prophecy.
Lol, I think what probably happened is all of those people that we thought were saying Rosen was going to be great were actually typing Allen and it was mysteriously auto-correcting to Rosen.
What the hell does it have to do with 58 sitting in the passing lane after recognizing the play? If DJ doesn't recognize it, it gets batted down. It's hard to tell if he was in a position to make that play without all 22 but it certainly looks like. DJ did what he could there, when you have OLB's that don't crash and sit on plays, the playcalling is too obvious. Not all on Garrett though, there's only so much we can run down there with this cast. He still almost made the play and with a better throw, he does. Not easy to do moving forward, but I'm impressed he didn't just try to force it in there and recognized it real-time.
What gets lost in the sauce was the previous pass and catch to Tate. Now that was a very nice play on both ends.
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Persistently late getting the ball to the receiver. Look at that aspect of his game. It happens often.
What the hell does it have to do with 58 sitting in the passing lane after recognizing the play? If DJ doesn't recognize it, it gets batted down. It's hard to tell if he was in a position to make that play without all 22 but it certainly looks like. DJ did what he could there, when you have OLB's that don't crash and sit on plays, the playcalling is too obvious. Not all on Garrett though, there's only so much we can run down there with this cast. He still almost made the play and with a better throw, he does. Not easy to do moving forward, but I'm impressed he didn't just try to force it in there and recognized it real-time.
I agree Zeke, I didn’t see it this way until reading your post. This is part of the whole “you need to get Jones some weapons this offseason” argument. When you have legitimate threats that teams have to account for guys like Lewis would be wide open on this play instead of having a linebacker spying the play and forcing a tight throw. I always think back to 2008 after Burress shot himself and our offense basically imploded. That offense was a well oiled machine in terms of the pass and run working with one another. The minute Burress went down teams could stack the box because they had no one to fear on the outside. This is our current predicament and why Jones is not deserving of all the shit he gets on here at the moment.
Just call it what is was - a late delivery.
Yea, I don’t know how we’re ignoring Allen’s 510 rushing yards and 9 TDs. If he put up those numbers this year, we would’ve clinched a playoff spot already.
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In comment 15099670 KWALL2 said:
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29 Tds, 9 INTs. 10 win team.
Doubles TDs and wins while reducing turnovers. It wasn’t just year 3. He made the jump in year 2 and was significantly better than Jones.
The ‘Process”? Jones is not on the same path. There is no comparison of these guys after year 2 and that doesn’t even consider the clear difference in talent.
20 tds, not 29
One reason why I was so enamored with Lamar Jackson. Too bad he didn’t fall into our lap in round 2.
Second round? Lamar should have been our pick at 4. He's better than Barkley at running and Jones at passing. What a disaster that pick was.
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In comment 15099448 gidiefor said:
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chit sandwich he has for skill players on office is talking out of his or her respective ass
How do you know Jones isn't dragging down the rest of the roster?
I can point to specific plays the skill players made where Jones failed to make the right play. I can point to plays where Jones had sufficient time in the pocket, didn't get the ball out, and took a bad sack and fumbled.
It's easy to point at the surrounding cast as the cause, and I agree they aren't great. But that doesn't make Jones good either.
I don't know why so many are so invested in giving him the benefit of the doubt. What has he done to earn it?
Go Terps -- you are a known rip it downer -- so one would expect you to take the off with their heads route given any sort of controversy -- so I'm including you in the gas that is coming out the rear
You really don't know what you are talking about as far as this goes -- you want results and you aren't getting them -- so you'd rather rip it down and start all over -- I get it -- so do most 3 year olds I know
Nice! Now the mods are skipping over the post itself to label and insult the poster! I guess Eric finally scrapped the civility thing and asked the mods to go in a different direction?
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It is not comparing the PLAYER, its comparing the PROCESS.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
Thank you Ben....glad to know some people “get what we are trying to say” on threads like this one. I guess some people are either too emotional or too caught up in their biases that they can’t listen and reason calmly.
Or maybe it’s...GASP...they simply don’t agree with you!
There are plenty of posters on this thread that pointed out additional facts and statistics as a counterpoint to your view. But no, they can’t have a valid point. They must just be dumber than you, or have an agenda. There is just no way any reasonable person could see things differently than you.
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In comment 15099647 Ben in Tampa said:
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It is not comparing the PLAYER, its comparing the PROCESS.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
Thank you Ben....glad to know some people “get what we are trying to say” on threads like this one. I guess some people are either too emotional or too caught up in their biases that they can’t listen and reason calmly.
Or maybe it’s...GASP...they simply don’t agree with you!
There are plenty of posters on this thread that pointed out additional facts and statistics as a counterpoint to your view. But no, they can’t have a valid point. They must just be dumber than you, or have an agenda. There is just no way any reasonable person could see things differently than you.
Not true Mike. I don’t need people to think like I do. What I take issue with are empty words or not presenting an argument t with some merit or making unfounded accusations, like what you posted here.
So let me hold your hand and help you here...
The thread’s purpose was to give us hope to see that just like Allen took off in year 3, so can our boy, Dimes.
But if you noticed, there are some who absolutely don’t like DJ and are already convinced we should move on. These guys absolutely don’t want a year 3 trial and have provided a lot of empty words and illogical arguments to support their case. The ones that kill me are the guys who say....”you can’t make that comparison between these two...”
Ahhhh, why not?
For the record Mike, I don’t care if someone wants DG or DJ gone....fine by me.
In his second year Allen had a good TD/INT ratio, Jones doesn't.
In his second year Allen was winning games and leading his team to the playoffs, meanwhile according to his coach and others here Jones did a good job vs the Ravens, who blew us out, because he was able to "get the ball out". After 20+ games we're still grading Jones on a curve.
There is no comparison between these two players. Stop kidding yourselves.
Just call it what is was - a late delivery.
What are you talking about. He either feignts a rush or recognizes it mid play and just sits on the passing lane. Which is one of the big ways you stop these rub routes down on goal line. Getting your edge into the passing lanes. He didn’t just hesitate out of nowhere and he’s sitting directly in the passing lane! Cmon!
Q: That two-point attempt at the end looked like a well-designed play. What happened and why didn't that execute?
A: It was a great play, a great play call. We have to get the ball out there sooner, too.
The play was there to be made and it's up to Jones to figure out to deliver the pass. I have to imagine Garrett goes over the type of throw that has to be made, and where the defensive players might be on that side. And then they practice to get it right. Otherwise, why run it?
Q: That two-point attempt at the end looked like a well-designed play. What happened and why didn't that execute?
A: It was a great play, a great play call. We have to get the ball out there sooner, too.
The play was there to be made and it's up to Jones to figure out to deliver the pass. I have to imagine Garrett goes over the type of throw that has to be made, and where the defensive players might be on that side. And then they practice to get it right. Otherwise, why run it?
Jones is a disaster and the best thing that Judge can say about him during his banal performance vs Baltimore is "he got the ball out"..
what the fuck? If Judge isn't convinced it is time to get a new QB he is an idiot too. If Judge doesn't see it and press for another QB option he's not the coach for us. How long will this stubbornness and idiocy continue? All these teams are rebuilding in two years before our eyes and we are stuck with a recalcitrant, illogical and immovable regime .
Q: That two-point attempt at the end looked like a well-designed play. What happened and why didn't that execute?
A: It was a great play, a great play call. We have to get the ball out there sooner, too.
The play was there to be made and it's up to Jones to figure out to deliver the pass. I have to imagine Garrett goes over the type of throw that has to be made, and where the defensive players might be on that side. And then they practice to get it right. Otherwise, why run it?
So now post game presses are golden nuggets of information? That’s the QB version of coach speak.
1. Was it a well designed play?
2. Was Lewis open to make the play?
3. Was the throw there to be made?
4. Should Jones have made the throw?
5. And I don't know this, but what do you think was the second option if the throw to Lewis wasn't there?
1. Was it a well designed play?
2. Was Lewis open to make the play?
3. Was the throw there to be made?
4. Should Jones have made the throw?
5. And I don't know this, but what do you think was the second option if the throw to Lewis wasn't there?
After rewatching that more times than I'd like, it was a well-designed play. My initial thoughts were this was on Garrett, but damn that was actually a pretty impressive draw up. Bucs had no chance if Barrett doesn't recognize it. Of course it's pretty easy when you put Lewis in motion like that, but most football players are dumb so kudos to him (really want to see him in blue next year)
Lewis was open to make the play, but it's not an easy throw after the timing got all fucked up. I'm not sure if he could of floated it out there either right off snap, the DB probably in position to make a play considering the angle. It was there to be made late, but like I said once you pump like that and pull it down and then go directly back to same guy, it's like putting a pass at a jump shooter's feet, if that analogy makes sense. But it was there, but very little window with a DB having an angle to close. IMO - second option would have been Shephard crossing at front of goal line. Which is where he probably would have went, but Lewis looked really open, but DB in close and angle.
This isn't saying I don't expect for DJ to make this play moving into the future, he had options here. But he's in his second year and recognizing the one guy who can make the play in the passing lane is impressive. Watch way too many young QBs where they are marching down the field late and then on a critical 3rd/4th down they don't even give their team a chance there. The ball gets batted down and the climax becomes rather anti-climatic.
1. Was it a well designed play?
2. Was Lewis open to make the play?
3. Was the throw there to be made?
4. Should Jones have made the throw?
5. And I don't know this, but what do you think was the second option if the throw to Lewis wasn't there?
bw.. what are you whining about. Based on the latest statements all that matter is that Jones "got the ball out". That's what we're judging him on. Did he get the ball out? Accuracy and playmaking doesn't matter.
It's very strange that you give DJ credit for not making the throw if you admit that the throw is there with the right touch, etc. That's a tough one to reconcile for me.
I asked the last question about other options if Lewis wasn't there because I don't think I saw anything other than Jones possibly running in (which would have been a miracle play) or he just keeps rolling and rolling hoping for someone to break free.
So if you give him "credit" for recognizing Barrett in the passing line then you have to conclude it was a bad decision to make the throw to Lewis, and Jones needed to go to Plans B,C, etc.
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straightforward questions.
1. Was it a well designed play?
2. Was Lewis open to make the play?
3. Was the throw there to be made?
4. Should Jones have made the throw?
5. And I don't know this, but what do you think was the second option if the throw to Lewis wasn't there?
bw.. what are you whining about. Based on the latest statements all that matter is that Jones "got the ball out". That's what we're judging him on. Did he get the ball out? Accuracy and playmaking doesn't matter.
I hear you...LOL. Isn't this place great? ;)
In the future I’ll avoid you.
It's very strange that you give DJ credit for not making the throw if you admit that the throw is there with the right touch, etc. That's a tough one to reconcile for me.
I asked the last question about other options if Lewis wasn't there because I don't think I saw anything other than Jones possibly running in (which would have been a miracle play) or he just keeps rolling and rolling hoping for someone to break free.
So if you give him "credit" for recognizing Barrett in the passing line then you have to conclude it was a bad decision to make the throw to Lewis, and Jones needed to go to Plans B,C, etc.
See I actually thought it was a rub route also originally, but after watching it today it wasn't. It was just schemed up great to get the safety who had zero leverage after Lewis went in motion and why you see him bust ass to get there. What makes that situation dicey about moving to your next read is that technically it's there, but damn thats tough on the QB to make that throw. Pulling the ball down and then making the throw to the sideline without your feet set properly is a high difficulty throw. DJ is not Patrick Mahomes and everything from the Cutcliffe trained QB is based on feet up. Peyton Manning loves to say it - no feet, defeat.
I think he should have went to his next read, but have no idea what the coaches say about that one, I'd imagine the same. But this is where experience matters. This is where your QB needs to play in his sandbox, boom hit the next read with a pinpoint pass to Shep. There's different ways to skin a cat, Mahomes probably makes that throw, Peyton goes to his next read right away after pulling it down and throws a TD to Shep. But this is why people make way too much of the play of 1st and 2nd year QBs who aren't extremely physically gifted or total athletes out there. Also brings up a good point about Lamar. Does he ever learn how to do that? No, because he won't have the experience to draw on. You just don't do things like this overnight.
In the future I’ll avoid you.
Thank you. Probably a good thing to keep harmony on this site.
It's about making plays folks.
It's about making plays folks.
It absolutely is about making that play. When he's in year 4 and beyond and you need to pay him the big bucks. This was what his 20th start? I was pretty down on DJ after week 5, I saw what they were trying to do with him, but he needed to start putting it together and if he didn't show signs then we need to look at QB in this years draft. This 2nd half of the Bucs game was the turning point for me. You could see him to start putting the pieces together.
In 2019 that jumped to 10-6, including 4 fourth quarter comebacks and 5 game winning drives. Bills offense improves to 20 points per game.
Daniel Jones won-loss record has gone from 3-9 to 4-9 in his two years. Point scored dropped from 21 per game to 17. He had 1 fourth qtr comeback and 2 game winning drives in 2019, and NONE so far in 2020.
So do you really want to conclude Josh Allen didn't specifically make the Bills team much better in his second year, and that his second year wasn't a success?
And can you even remotely suggest the same about Jones' second year?
5Bowls - you never responded to this earlier post. Let me know what you think.
Quote:
Josh Allen's won-loss record 2018 was 5-6, including 2 fourth quarter comebacks and 3 game winning drives. The Bills offense averaged 17 points per game.
In 2019 that jumped to 10-6, including 4 fourth quarter comebacks and 5 game winning drives. Bills offense improves to 20 points per game.
Daniel Jones won-loss record has gone from 3-9 to 4-9 in his two years. Point scored dropped from 21 per game to 17. He had 1 fourth qtr comeback and 2 game winning drives in 2019, and NONE so far in 2020.
So do you really want to conclude Josh Allen didn't specifically make the Bills team much better in his second year, and that his second year wasn't a success?
And can you even remotely suggest the same about Jones' second year?
5Bowls - you never responded to this earlier post. Let me know what you think.
Sorry...well, let me see, there are over 220 posts on this thread....Yikes...I hope it is t too far from this post.
Quote:
Josh Allen's won-loss record 2018 was 5-6, including 2 fourth quarter comebacks and 3 game winning drives. The Bills offense averaged 17 points per game.
In 2019 that jumped to 10-6, including 4 fourth quarter comebacks and 5 game winning drives. Bills offense improves to 20 points per game.
Daniel Jones won-loss record has gone from 3-9 to 4-9 in his two years. Point scored dropped from 21 per game to 17. He had 1 fourth qtr comeback and 2 game winning drives in 2019, and NONE so far in 2020.
So do you really want to conclude Josh Allen didn't specifically make the Bills team much better in his second year, and that his second year wasn't a success?
And can you even remotely suggest the same about Jones' second year?
5Bowls - you never responded to this earlier post. Let me know what you think.
You arguably showed Allen’s second year was more successful in that he was able to make 4th q comebacks....something DJ has not done. That is a very good point too. Don’t think I’m happy with this either. I’m a Giant fan fist and foremost, not a DJ fan. I agree....DJ definitely needs to improve in this regard....let’s see how he does in year 3. And yes, I’m very discouraged about DJ’s overall performance this year but it’s not just him. We all know what the other factors are hindering his growth.
But again, the comparison I’ve been making is simply....it is clear Allen improved in year 2 and DJ has regressed, except in turnovers, but Allen clearly has taken off in year 3 after the bills got him STEFON DIGGS, A TRUE #1 WR. Plus, he has been working with a highly respected OC for 3 years. Unlike DJ who is working with a not so respected OC in Garrett, and has not had the continuity Allen has had, and clearly doesn’t have a 1 WR.
I would like to see DJ’s 3rd year under a much better OC who will allow DJ to excel much like he did in his rookie year.
I really wasn’t comparing Allen v DJ to see who has been better...I think some guys think that erroneously. But I clearly would agree....DJ had a better year 1 than Allen and Allen had a better year 2. Allen has a great year 3.....I can’t wait to see DJ’s.
And this thread contains a fair amount of data and underlying rational that supports that Year 2 improvement for Allen.
Your thesis that Year 3 is when, and really only when, Allen improved. And therefore Giants fans need to give Jones that benefit of doubt and wait until Year 3 before we decide on him.
Jones may very well get that Year 3 but I would suggest to your thesis shouldn't be the reason why. Allen's improvement has been much more noticeable, aligned to the cumulative number of games he has started at QB, and is displayed in almost all of his respective stats, including the ones that are truly compelling such as wins and touchdowns scored. Jones' is not.
Jones regression in Year 2 versus Year 1 in many, not all, of the areas you want to see in a QB develop is disconcerting.
Year 3 could yield an entirely different Jones but that would be independent of what you are trying to show here.
Nearly all of them - Marino, Peyton, Eli, Elway, Brady, Montana, Bradshaw, Kelly, etc - showed a pattern by improving in their second year. That improvement was either more TDs, less INT, improved completion %, YPA, Rating, etc.
There were a few outliers, like Favre, Aikman, Brees, but by and large the second year is where the lights start to go on and you can see hope on the horizon.