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DJones vs. Josh Allen, year 2

5BowlsSoon : 12/30/2020 9:52 am
Allen:
58%
3089 yards
20 TDs
9 Interceptions
14 fumbles
47.9 QBR
85.3 Rate


Jones:
62%
2714 yards
9 tds
9 int
10 fumbles
QBR 63.3
Rate 78.9

Conclusion: as you can see, Allen wasn’t really any better except in TD passes thrown. I didn’t show this but I’m sure Josh Allen scored more tds with his legs too.

The point I want to make is simply this.....Josh Allen took off in year 3, not year 2. Sure his team won 10 games in year 2 while Jones probably wins 6. But Allen’s team primarily won because of their top tier defense, which Jones doesn’t have.

Allen took off when the Bills got him STEFON DIGGS, a true #1 receiver. Let’s watch and then judge Jones if and when we can get him such a toy to play with. Oh, I also think it would help Jones greatly to give him an OC who is creative and not old school like Garrett. After all, Jones did throw for 24 tds and over 300 yards often as a rookie in Shurmur’s offense.
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GT,  
Big Blue '56 : 12/30/2020 11:20 am : link
thanks for responding in depth.
RE: Dimes  
Danny Dimes : 12/30/2020 11:22 am : link
In comment 15099304 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
I'm glad your opinion of Jones is set in stone after 2 years. We'll see.



You have no idea what I believe in Jonjes. Put Pat Mohomes in Giants and Jones in Chiefs i bet you everything that Jones would have 30+ TDs and Mahomes would have 15-.....Jones defently needs recievers
RE: RE: RE: and to think we took a injury prone running back over a franchise qb..  
eric2425ny : 12/30/2020 11:23 am : link
In comment 15099297 Danny Dimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15099292 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


In comment 15099275 Danny Dimes said:


Quote:


we could of had Josh allen the qb and Josh Alllen the pass rusher....instead we got a beat down rb and a qb no where near the level of Bills Josh Allen



Barkley had one injury in college, a high ankle sprain that I think he missed two games for. He was not injury prone when he was drafted. And Allen was rated by most “experts” behind Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen.



Well I wish I can shoiw you my posts, I came from an older giants forum that got deleted where me and another guy was arguing which is better Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson...saquan was no where near the conversation. Should I bring up Sy's evaluation of Josh allen? a real scouts opinion would be interesting


I’m not doubting that you or Sy or other people liked Allen. I’m just saying that 1.) Barkley did not have a significant injury history when he was drafted and 2.) Allen was not regarded by the majority as being the best QB in the draft. It wasn’t a situation where it was an obvious choice between Barkley and Allen that year. If I remember correctly Allen had some shoulder issues in college that scared some teams.
RE: Dimes  
Danny Dimes : 12/30/2020 11:24 am : link
In comment 15099304 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
I'm glad your opinion of Jones is set in stone after 2 years. We'll see.



But Jones has no where near the talent of Josh Allen, have you seen him jumping over people? what QB does that
RE: I get the comparison  
bw in dc : 12/30/2020 11:25 am : link
In comment 15099283 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
and this seems to be to go-to comparison at this point. Josh Allen's development was slow but now he's really come into his own and is going to finish Top 5 in the MVP race (probably #3) for a legitimate SB contending team (feels so weird to say this about the Bills franchise).

But I think there are 2 main differences.

The 1st difference is that Jones' sophomore season is a clear step down from his rookie season. Whereas Josh Allen clearly improved in his 2nd year. This is a major difference between their perceived trajectories which is why Bills' fans were more optimistic than we are in our QB after Year 2.

The 2nd difference is that Josh Allen possessed obvious physical traits that indicated a high ceiling. His size stood out on TV from day 1, he was a big boy with a rocket arm who could move really well. I dislike Big Ben as a person but I enjoyed his playstyle when he was younger, Allen didn't brush off defenders in the same way but his size and mobility definitely made you think about that comparison a bit. The upside was obvious with Allen.

The upside is a little less obvious for Jones. Although I'm down on Jones to the point that I wouldn't mind another QB next year, I'm probably higher on his upside that most of his other doubters. The "Danny Dimes" nickname might've been forced, but he really did throw a decent amount of really impressive passes as a rookie that made you overlook the other flaws. But in terms of overall raw talent and untapped potential, he doesn't stand out like Allen did. And his mental shortcomings (pre-snap issues, eyes locking onto his primary targets, terrible pocket awareness) really hurts him in my eyes since his physical traits aren't standout.

I hope he turns into an MVP candidate like Josh Allen, but I don't think it's a fair comparison at this point based on what both QBs showed through 2 years.


Allen's first year is very interesting because the improvement really started to manifest in the second half. He was actually the second leading rusher in the NFL for the last two months of that season. He finished the year with 630 rushing yards and 8 rushing TDs.

And after a very rough start as a passer, he finished on a more promising note. For FY '18, he had 10 TDs/12INTs. But in the last 8 games he had 8 TDs/5 INTs. So there were some positive signs that he was starting to get it...

And he's more of a scrambler than Jones. Jones can run, but Allen can scramble. A scrambler is much more dangerous.
Comparisons are always silly, guys play in different sandboxes,  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/30/2020 11:26 am : link
and there is different ways to be successful.

While the post snap processing isn’t great with DJ it’s not so awful that it isn’t hard to imagine it will look much better down the line and especially with some better skill players. The presnap stuff isn’t horrific, he’s missing a line call and misdiagnosing or two here, but that’s another thing that isn’t so bad it isn’t hard to fathom. There’s a reason BB is dominant against rookie and 2nd year QBs. He confuses the hell out of them presnap.

The ball security has been better, the ball has been higher, with one notable exception. When he takes off to run he drops his hands, which is hard to beat out of guys. Anyone notice the difference between the interceptions last year and this year because I certainly do. Last year it was showing poor reads, poor anticipation, and taking the bait. Saw a couple of those early in the year, but the majority of his picks are his WRs gifting them to the other team.

The TDs are down mostly because it was pretty clear to me what they wanted to do with him this year in early weeks. They wanted to clean up the decision making which caused lots of hesitation which ironically caused a few picks early. The decision making has been pretty good lately but we just don’t have the horses. He needs help which in IMO is going to lessen the load on him moving forward.

DJ isn’t a great athlete by NFL standards, but he’s fast as fuck. With a healthy Saquon we are going to see a lot more man. Get some guys that can win their 1 v 1 matchups and let DJ torch them with his legs when the focus is on Saquon intermittently in run game and if they don’t want to spy him in pass game with some actual weapons that need attention. This will help keep him healthy as well.

As early as week 6 I started catching next years QB class, but something clicked for him in 2nd half of TB and I imagine the coaching staff saw it too. He’s starting to put all the pieces together. Next year we’ll have our answer if he’s the guy moving forward.
I can’t help but wonder how Jones would have  
eric2425ny : 12/30/2020 11:26 am : link
fared this year if he was still in Shurmur’s offense. He looked so much better in his rookie year.
Osi and The Boss  
cosmicj : 12/30/2020 11:30 am : link
thanks for some intelligent posts.

It's very likely that Jones will be the 2021 opening day starter. But what many of use are seeing in his game makes me wonder if we are going to be experiencing a full-scale QB controversy by next October or November. If Jones continues to play like he is currently, Judge will see his very career threatened by an underperforming QB and may bench him.

So in terms of BBI controversy, you ain't seen nothing yet.
RE: RE: RE: RE: and to think we took a injury prone running back over a franchise qb..  
Danny Dimes : 12/30/2020 11:30 am : link
In comment 15099309 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
In comment 15099297 Danny Dimes said:


Quote:


In comment 15099292 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


In comment 15099275 Danny Dimes said:


Quote:


we could of had Josh allen the qb and Josh Alllen the pass rusher....instead we got a beat down rb and a qb no where near the level of Bills Josh Allen



Barkley had one injury in college, a high ankle sprain that I think he missed two games for. He was not injury prone when he was drafted. And Allen was rated by most “experts” behind Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen.



Well I wish I can shoiw you my posts, I came from an older giants forum that got deleted where me and another guy was arguing which is better Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson...saquan was no where near the conversation. Should I bring up Sy's evaluation of Josh allen? a real scouts opinion would be interesting



I’m not doubting that you or Sy or other people liked Allen. I’m just saying that 1.) Barkley did not have a significant injury history when he was drafted and 2.) Allen was not regarded by the majority as being the best QB in the draft. It wasn’t a situation where it was an obvious choice between Barkley and Allen that year. If I remember correctly Allen had some shoulder issues in college that scared some teams.


I agree bro, I have a saquan jersey and only one I trust will be in the team 5+ years from now. Im a conspiracy therist and firmly believe saquan just opted out this year. He will come back way stronger next year and Giants let him sit out. Give that beast an OL and its home runs every fucking play. I love Barkley
Not a Jones  
Keaton028 : 12/30/2020 11:50 am : link
hater at all. But he is not Josh Allen. Why do we do this to ourselves?
Josh Allen  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/30/2020 11:53 am : link
is a very interesting case. Nobody wanted him out of high school. He played at Wyoming. He had the rare arm talent and athletic ability. Obviously he worked very hard improving mechanics with good coaching and good for him it really translated to performance. Jones had three years with a QB guru in college and then Shurmur the whisperer.

The biggest thing I see is he is extremely confident. Moves in the pocket, sets his feet and lets it rip it tight windows.

Jones I think is lacking in this area. Confidence and trust to let it rip sometimes. I think also some of these longer sideline passes are trying to protect this flaw.
RE: Not a Jones  
Danny Dimes : 12/30/2020 11:55 am : link
In comment 15099351 Keaton028 said:
Quote:
hater at all. But he is not Josh Allen. Why do we do this to ourselves?



LOL
RE: Osi and The Boss  
LBH15 : 12/30/2020 11:58 am : link
In comment 15099325 cosmicj said:
Quote:
thanks for some intelligent posts.

It's very likely that Jones will be the 2021 opening day starter. But what many of use are seeing in his game makes me wonder if we are going to be experiencing a full-scale QB controversy by next October or November. If Jones continues to play like he is currently, Judge will see his very career threatened by an underperforming QB and may bench him.

So in terms of BBI controversy, you ain't seen nothing yet.


Yep, it's coming. Pre-draft discussions will be interesting as well if lose on sunday and move up in the draft order.
Ahh the experts here  
jvm52106 : 12/30/2020 11:58 am : link
who want to use whatever narrative they can find to approve or disapprove a theory. The anti Jones crowd though goes way beyond that and then some.

I find it so funny how many QB experts on this board. Pre-snap reads quoted by many who have no fucking idea what that means but it sounds good. Like quoting trust the science even though you have zero idea what the SCIENCE actually is. It is funny though how a fairly apt comparrison gets ripped apart becauase you don't like the guy the comparison is supporting so you knock it completely. Some of the arguments against the comparison actually show how much making a definitive statement about someone, just 2 years in can be so wrong..

#1- Many of you here were 100% against the Giants even considering Allen back in 2018 as the 2nd pick in the draft. You had Darnold above him, Rosen was a choice by many here and even Mayfield was a popular choice amongst a small but very vocal group. The idea was Allen couldn't hit the broadside of the barn and his cannon arm was the only reason he was even being considered in the first round.

Now many of you are using the fact that he wasn't trained by a QB guru and didn't have the pro friendly offense as an excuse for his first two years and that he has developed now in year 3.

#2- The talk about athleticism and the fact that Allen has more TDs on the ground than JOnes. Hmmm.. So you are now saying that Allen is a better QB because he scores more TDs than Jones. I would think the fact that he has Diggs, Beasley, Gabriel (draft pick who has played well), a completely revamped Oline that has played very well and he is playing in the same system for his 3rd year in a row may have something to do with that. But, that doesn't fit your narrative so that is ignored. I suspect if Allen had our WR corps and was on his 2nd pro system in 2 years he wouldn't have as many TD passes (for sure) and probbaly ,ess rushing TDs as well.

Jones has been hampered by a completely shit system passing wise this year , along with the WORST WR's group in the NFL! His best weapon and one the would have freed him up more was lost in the first half of game 2 for the season. His rushing TDs include 1 TD called back on holding and the trip and fall on an 80 yard fucking run that many here like to joke about but who most of you couldn't even run 80 yards period! Do I wish he had scored, of course I do. But, I am pretty thrilled he is such a threat that when healthy teams have to game plan against him. Now imagine that same option play with Barkley in the backfield.

I get it, some of you want Jones gone.One of you in this thread has made slight comments (in other threads) that the Giants were racist for not drafting Lamar Jackson. Others wanted Herbert this year (and honestly, if we didn't have Jones I am sure he would have been the choice) but, we already drafted our QB. The crowd that want Trevor Lawrence was in full throat until week 10. We have a QB who has shown he can play and has shown he is a dual threat when healthy. We need other parts and he needs time to develop. If you jettison him now are full on rebuild again as we haven't even finished this rebuild.

Jones next season will be a 67% or higher comp % QB, with 30 plus TDs passing and 5 plus TDs rushing assuming Barkley is healthy and we sign and or draft a few weapons on offense!
Hold on  
UConn4523 : 12/30/2020 12:01 pm : link
so Barkley didn’t actually tear his knee, it was all an act?
My take, if anyone cares...  
sb from NYT Forum : 12/30/2020 12:08 pm : link
...is that whatever you feel about the Jones draft pick, he deserves a year three assessment. There are just too many variables this year to make any decision about whether he will be a top 10 or top 15 NFL starting QB.


New OC and no training camp to get up to speed
Horrible OL play for the majority of the year
Horrible WR play the entire year
Below average RB for nearly the whole year

At least some of those things will be better next year.

The big issue with Jones in consistency. We've seen him make amazing throws and quick decisions, but we've also seen him (sometimes in the same game) make inaccurate throws, wrong reads or hold the ball way too long.

If he is more consistent in 2021, coupled with some better OL and skill position play he will be a good QB.

If he is still inconsistent even after a full preseason, then I don't think he ever will be.

I still haven't seen anyone answer yes to this question  
Go Terps : 12/30/2020 12:08 pm : link
If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?
Jvm  
Mike from Ohio : 12/30/2020 12:10 pm : link
That is a really biased and silly post. Saying Jones and Allen are not on the same trajectory after two years is not the same as “I wanted to draft Allen,”. One person on this thread said they wanted Allen at the time. If you want to be taken seriously, stop creating straw man arguments.

And nobody here understands what a pre and post-snap read is? If you have watched football for more than a year or two you know what they are. So do the announcers - many ex NFL QBs - who make the same criticism.

Nobody - including you - knows what Jones will be next year. But so far you are the only one posting his stats for 2021.
RE: Ahh the experts here  
eric2425ny : 12/30/2020 12:10 pm : link
In comment 15099366 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
who want to use whatever narrative they can find to approve or disapprove a theory. The anti Jones crowd though goes way beyond that and then some.

I find it so funny how many QB experts on this board. Pre-snap reads quoted by many who have no fucking idea what that means but it sounds good. Like quoting trust the science even though you have zero idea what the SCIENCE actually is. It is funny though how a fairly apt comparrison gets ripped apart becauase you don't like the guy the comparison is supporting so you knock it completely. Some of the arguments against the comparison actually show how much making a definitive statement about someone, just 2 years in can be so wrong..

#1- Many of you here were 100% against the Giants even considering Allen back in 2018 as the 2nd pick in the draft. You had Darnold above him, Rosen was a choice by many here and even Mayfield was a popular choice amongst a small but very vocal group. The idea was Allen couldn't hit the broadside of the barn and his cannon arm was the only reason he was even being considered in the first round.

Now many of you are using the fact that he wasn't trained by a QB guru and didn't have the pro friendly offense as an excuse for his first two years and that he has developed now in year 3.

#2- The talk about athleticism and the fact that Allen has more TDs on the ground than JOnes. Hmmm.. So you are now saying that Allen is a better QB because he scores more TDs than Jones. I would think the fact that he has Diggs, Beasley, Gabriel (draft pick who has played well), a completely revamped Oline that has played very well and he is playing in the same system for his 3rd year in a row may have something to do with that. But, that doesn't fit your narrative so that is ignored. I suspect if Allen had our WR corps and was on his 2nd pro system in 2 years he wouldn't have as many TD passes (for sure) and probbaly ,ess rushing TDs as well.

Jones has been hampered by a completely shit system passing wise this year , along with the WORST WR's group in the NFL! His best weapon and one the would have freed him up more was lost in the first half of game 2 for the season. His rushing TDs include 1 TD called back on holding and the trip and fall on an 80 yard fucking run that many here like to joke about but who most of you couldn't even run 80 yards period! Do I wish he had scored, of course I do. But, I am pretty thrilled he is such a threat that when healthy teams have to game plan against him. Now imagine that same option play with Barkley in the backfield.

I get it, some of you want Jones gone.One of you in this thread has made slight comments (in other threads) that the Giants were racist for not drafting Lamar Jackson. Others wanted Herbert this year (and honestly, if we didn't have Jones I am sure he would have been the choice) but, we already drafted our QB. The crowd that want Trevor Lawrence was in full throat until week 10. We have a QB who has shown he can play and has shown he is a dual threat when healthy. We need other parts and he needs time to develop. If you jettison him now are full on rebuild again as we haven't even finished this rebuild.

Jones next season will be a 67% or higher comp % QB, with 30 plus TDs passing and 5 plus TDs rushing assuming Barkley is healthy and we sign and or draft a few weapons on offense!


This is well written and I remember the questions about Allen’s accuracy. If I remember correctly it seemed like half the board was enamored with Rosen.

The link below details Allen’s shoulder injury while in college. This is one of the reasons he wasn’t drafted in the top 5.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Osi and The Boss  
Go Terps : 12/30/2020 12:17 pm : link
In comment 15099325 cosmicj said:
Quote:
thanks for some intelligent posts.

It's very likely that Jones will be the 2021 opening day starter. But what many of use are seeing in his game makes me wonder if we are going to be experiencing a full-scale QB controversy by next October or November. If Jones continues to play like he is currently, Judge will see his very career threatened by an underperforming QB and may bench him.

So in terms of BBI controversy, you ain't seen nothing yet.


cosmicj...this is what I've been saying. Jones starts 2021, but I'm not surprised if he's on a different team as a backup in 2022.
RE: I still haven't seen anyone answer yes to this question  
jestersdead : 12/30/2020 12:18 pm : link
In comment 15099382 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?

My answer, no and if that was the case, the Giants would have drafted Herbert last year. The Giants will wait a year too long before deciding to move on from Jones and will set the team back another 4 years
RE: I still haven't seen anyone answer yes to this question  
UConn4523 : 12/30/2020 12:19 pm : link
In comment 15099382 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?


I partly get the point but where he was drafted suggests his untapped upside in theory. I know that “potential” shouldn’t be the default answer but I agree with it in part. I would have liked to have seen more from him by the end of year 2 but I also realize the shit sandwich we’ve been so it’s a conundrum (for me as a fan). I trust Judges evaluation and just have to hope for the best on whatever the decision is in why to do at QB moving forward.
RE: I still haven't seen anyone answer yes to this question  
LBH15 : 12/30/2020 12:21 pm : link
In comment 15099382 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?


Yes.

Who's with me?
I watch both Jones and Allen a lot.  
Red Dog : 12/30/2020 12:23 pm : link
Allen has had a better team around him since day one. Better coaching early on, too.

Allen's supporting cast last season was much better than what Jones had this year IN JUST ABOUT EVERY RESPECT. Better receivers. Better O-line. Better running game due to better blocking. Better defense. Better special teams.

Jones needs another season that starts with a full run of camps to settle the OL plus some significantly better receivers to mature and show what he can do.
RE: Hold on  
family progtitioner : 12/30/2020 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15099371 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
so Barkley didn’t actually tear his knee, it was all an act?


Haha. I saw that too. Say what?
RE: I watch both Jones and Allen a lot.  
LBH15 : 12/30/2020 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15099400 Red Dog said:
Quote:
Allen has had a better team around him since day one. Better coaching early on, too.

Allen's supporting cast last season was much better than what Jones had this year IN JUST ABOUT EVERY RESPECT. Better receivers. Better O-line. Better running game due to better blocking. Better defense. Better special teams.



Sounds like they must have a better GM too.
RE: RE: I still haven't seen anyone answer yes to this question  
Mike from Ohio : 12/30/2020 12:27 pm : link
In comment 15099398 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15099382 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?



Yes.

Who's with me?


To answer that question a little differently...If Jones were a UDFA, every mock draft would have us taking a QB.

Jones was picked #6 because of his potential. He will get a longer leash to prove himself like Eli did. But at some point the body of evidence available has to outweigh potential.
“Other than Allen scoring 19 more touchdowns”  
ajr2456 : 12/30/2020 12:28 pm : link
Jones has been better in year two? Is this a real post? I didn’t think the bar could get lower.

Touchdowns matter, probably more importantly than any of the other stats.
Obviously Allen was a high ceiling low floor type of prospect  
family progtitioner : 12/30/2020 12:34 pm : link
But any type of comparison completely fails the eye test. Allen is a big guy with a huge arm and his athleticism is off the charts. Just look at the way that he effortlessly Evades free rushers and rockets the ball down the field. He is very comfortable with scrambling. Jones really displays none of this, his arm is average although his accuracy is quite good. He is not a comfortable runner although can take off in a straight line if need be.

Allen is Elway way on steroids while Jones will be lucky to reach Alex Smith territory. Unfortunately for the Giants and fans
RE: RE: I still haven't seen anyone answer yes to this question  
Go Terps : 12/30/2020 12:35 pm : link
In comment 15099393 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15099382 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?



I partly get the point but where he was drafted suggests his untapped upside in theory. I know that “potential” shouldn’t be the default answer but I agree with it in part. I would have liked to have seen more from him by the end of year 2 but I also realize the shit sandwich we’ve been so it’s a conundrum (for me as a fan). I trust Judges evaluation and just have to hope for the best on whatever the decision is in why to do at QB moving forward.


What untapped upside is there, really? This isn't Mahomes or Allen, players who were described out of college as hugely talented but unpolished. The book on Jones coming out was that he was well coached, mechanically polished (this has borne out not to be true), and about as prepared for the college to pro transition as you could be. There's no massive physical talent there that hasn't yet been unlocked.

I don't see anything in Jones that's untapped.
If Jones was a UDFA and under contract why wouldn’t he be the QB  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/30/2020 12:39 pm : link
next year? Outside of Lawrence and maybe Wilson I wouldn’t consider it. To me those are the only two prospects worth possibly jumping ship. And we won’t be in position to draft either without massive draft assets and then they’ll just look poor too for same reasons we do this year if Barkley goes down again.

I just don’t understand the argument that he hasn’t shown enough to be the QB next year. And he’s shown progress throughout the season with clearly a different mandate from Judge than Shurmur. Shurmur pretty much just let him go out there and let it rip and it resulted in a lot more QB responsible interceptions. You can talk stats all day, but you put year 2 Allen in this offense and they don’t look much better and I’m
Someone that’s liked Allen a ton since the draft and he has potential of being number 2 to Mahomes for a long time.
RE: I still haven't seen anyone answer yes to this question  
bw in dc : 12/30/2020 12:46 pm : link
In comment 15099382 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?


I think he'd get the chance to compete if he had these same two years under his belt. Plus...

1. Very inexpensive as a UDFA. So we could still hit paydirt.
2. Does have interesting skills that fit the modern game.
3. NFL experience.

Furthermore, I think the narrative of "he needs more help to see what we actually have" would be more tolerable because of the UFDA status. I mean, there had to be some really good reasons why he wasn't drafted, and most likely he didn't have the ability to elevate the play of others...
RE: RE: RE: I still haven't seen anyone answer yes to this question  
Thegratefulhead : 12/30/2020 12:48 pm : link
In comment 15099416 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15099393 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15099382 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?



I partly get the point but where he was drafted suggests his untapped upside in theory. I know that “potential” shouldn’t be the default answer but I agree with it in part. I would have liked to have seen more from him by the end of year 2 but I also realize the shit sandwich we’ve been so it’s a conundrum (for me as a fan). I trust Judges evaluation and just have to hope for the best on whatever the decision is in why to do at QB moving forward.



What untapped upside is there, really? This isn't Mahomes or Allen, players who were described out of college as hugely talented but unpolished. The book on Jones coming out was that he was well coached, mechanically polished (this has borne out not to be true), and about as prepared for the college to pro transition as you could be. There's no massive physical talent there that hasn't yet been unlocked.

I don't see anything in Jones that's untapped.
Terps, I am with you on Jones for the most part. If we have a shot at Wilson or Lance I would do it. That said, Jones has made a significant amount of exceptional, tight window throws in his career so far. He isn't dog shit. My beefs are decision making and ball security.
Right now based just on the eye test  
rocco8112 : 12/30/2020 12:49 pm : link
watching games, Allen looks like a much better player and I would rather have him on the Giants.

I like the Bills and will be rooting for them to win it all.

If there isn't a QB in the draft worth picking over Jones, roll it bac  
Kyle_ : 12/30/2020 12:51 pm : link
Odds are he's not good enough to lock down the position for years 4 and 5 (picking up the option), and we just enter the 2022 draft with an eye on QBs like 2021. If he's good enough to lock down the position, hey, that's fantastic. The worst case scenario is if he's marginally improved in 2021 and the team convinces itself to buy two more years of him.

If there's a QB in the draft this April worth picking, and the cost isn't prohibitive, Jones's existence shouldn't preclude that. Assuming we're 50/50 to win/lose this weekend, that means a 50% chance that we pick 8th as a worst case scenario -- no one else wins to help us move up the draft order. It's likely one of Wilson or Lance is there at 8th. If we move up the order, the odds increase that it's both.

But just like when we drafted Jones, you don't draft a QB just to replace Jones with anyone. That's how we got into this mess in the first place.
IMO anyone trying to evaluate Jones based on the  
gidiefor : Mod : 12/30/2020 12:51 pm : link
chit sandwich he has for skill players on office is talking out of his or her respective ass
RE: RE: RE: there's a difference between  
Tuckrule : 12/30/2020 12:53 pm : link
In comment 15099294 Danny Dimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15099289 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15099278 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


being a game manager and only being able to throw the ball 10 yards to anyone because nobody is open downfield, and you don't have all day to throw.



That wasn't the case against Tampa. Slayton was open deep the whole game.




He's a 1 read qb, doesnt know how to read the field and extend the play....pretty much a broke mans Eli Manning


You don’t know what your watching. Go watch this past Sundays game. Tell me he’s a one read QB. Fans who never played the game have no idea what a quick hitting route is. We started off the game with stick routes. That’s a Garret staple. That is a one read throw. You just throw the ball to the opposite shoulder of the defender. That is a one read throw. Jesus I get so annoyed reading how jones doesn’t go through progressions. He does very well with one of the worst lines in the nfl. Follow a new sport or educate yourself
RE: RE: RE: I still haven't seen anyone answer yes to this question  
UConn4523 : 12/30/2020 12:54 pm : link
In comment 15099416 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15099393 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15099382 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?



I partly get the point but where he was drafted suggests his untapped upside in theory. I know that “potential” shouldn’t be the default answer but I agree with it in part. I would have liked to have seen more from him by the end of year 2 but I also realize the shit sandwich we’ve been so it’s a conundrum (for me as a fan). I trust Judges evaluation and just have to hope for the best on whatever the decision is in why to do at QB moving forward.



What untapped upside is there, really? This isn't Mahomes or Allen, players who were described out of college as hugely talented but unpolished. The book on Jones coming out was that he was well coached, mechanically polished (this has borne out not to be true), and about as prepared for the college to pro transition as you could be. There's no massive physical talent there that hasn't yet been unlocked.

I don't see anything in Jones that's untapped.


You might be right. Not really an easy answer, I’ll leave it to the coaches. Doesn’t make for a good discussion but it is what it is.
RE: I watch both Jones and Allen a lot.  
Tuckrule : 12/30/2020 12:55 pm : link
In comment 15099400 Red Dog said:
Quote:
Allen has had a better team around him since day one. Better coaching early on, too.

Allen's supporting cast last season was much better than what Jones had this year IN JUST ABOUT EVERY RESPECT. Better receivers. Better O-line. Better running game due to better blocking. Better defense. Better special teams.

Jones needs another season that starts with a full run of camps to settle the OL plus some significantly better receivers to mature and show what he can do.


Finally!!!! A fan who knows what the fuck he’s watching.
RE: RE: RE: RE: there's a difference between  
Danny Dimes : 12/30/2020 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15099452 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 15099294 Danny Dimes said:


Quote:


In comment 15099289 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15099278 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


being a game manager and only being able to throw the ball 10 yards to anyone because nobody is open downfield, and you don't have all day to throw.



That wasn't the case against Tampa. Slayton was open deep the whole game.




He's a 1 read qb, doesnt know how to read the field and extend the play....pretty much a broke mans Eli Manning



You don’t know what your watching. Go watch this past Sundays game. Tell me he’s a one read QB. Fans who never played the game have no idea what a quick hitting route is. We started off the game with stick routes. That’s a Garret staple. That is a one read throw. You just throw the ball to the opposite shoulder of the defender. That is a one read throw. Jesus I get so annoyed reading how jones doesn’t go through progressions. He does very well with one of the worst lines in the nfl. Follow a new sport or educate yourself


I respect that. Hopefully you right. I just wish he had the offenseive weapons chiefs do to shut down the haters
RE: IMO anyone trying to evaluate Jones based on the  
Go Terps : 12/30/2020 1:04 pm : link
In comment 15099448 gidiefor said:
Quote:
chit sandwich he has for skill players on office is talking out of his or her respective ass


How do you know Jones isn't dragging down the rest of the roster?

I can point to specific plays the skill players made where Jones failed to make the right play. I can point to plays where Jones had sufficient time in the pocket, didn't get the ball out, and took a bad sack and fumbled.

It's easy to point at the surrounding cast as the cause, and I agree they aren't great. But that doesn't make Jones good either.

I don't know why so many are so invested in giving him the benefit of the doubt. What has he done to earn it?
RE: RE: I still haven't seen anyone answer yes to this question  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/30/2020 1:04 pm : link
In comment 15099440 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15099382 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If Daniel Jones were a UDFA instead of the 6th pick overall, is he the starter going into training camp 2021?



I think he'd get the chance to compete if he had these same two years under his belt. Plus...

1. Very inexpensive as a UDFA. So we could still hit paydirt.
2. Does have interesting skills that fit the modern game.
3. NFL experience.

Furthermore, I think the narrative of "he needs more help to see what we actually have" would be more tolerable because of the UFDA status. I mean, there had to be some really good reasons why he wasn't drafted, and most likely he didn't have the ability to elevate the play of others...


That’s the point SY was making. Your expectations of what a second year QB can do are preposterous. 2nd year QBs, regardless of how elite they are, turn out to be, or draft status, aren’t elevating this cast of characters. Put 2nd year Allen in this offense missing it’s only difference maker and the stats aren’t looking much better.
Another point, regarding Gettleman...  
Go Terps : 12/30/2020 1:09 pm : link
Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.

That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.

Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?

Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
RE: RE: Comparing the 2 is laughable.  
Toth029 : 12/30/2020 1:09 pm : link
In comment 15099284 Danny Dimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15099281 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


Holy shit, have you watched Allen play? FFS




exactly, dude has franchise qb written all over him....i was banging the table to draft him back in 18....but noooo we took a fucking running back


I love this kind of hindsight.

Someone bring up the archives.
RE: RE: IMO anyone trying to evaluate Jones based on the  
gidiefor : Mod : 12/30/2020 1:10 pm : link
In comment 15099463 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15099448 gidiefor said:


Quote:


chit sandwich he has for skill players on office is talking out of his or her respective ass



How do you know Jones isn't dragging down the rest of the roster?

I can point to specific plays the skill players made where Jones failed to make the right play. I can point to plays where Jones had sufficient time in the pocket, didn't get the ball out, and took a bad sack and fumbled.

It's easy to point at the surrounding cast as the cause, and I agree they aren't great. But that doesn't make Jones good either.

I don't know why so many are so invested in giving him the benefit of the doubt. What has he done to earn it?


Go Terps -- you are a known rip it downer -- so one would expect you to take the off with their heads route given any sort of controversy -- so I'm including you in the gas that is coming out the rear

You really don't know what you are talking about as far as this goes -- you want results and you aren't getting them -- so you'd rather rip it down and start all over -- I get it -- so do most 3 year olds I know
RE: Another point, regarding Gettleman...  
Danny Dimes : 12/30/2020 1:11 pm : link
In comment 15099470 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.

That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.

Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?

Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.



Jones was Eli's pick. Eli and Peyton was at duke every offseason training him. Jones isnt DG fault. Im damn sure he wouldnt pick him but the Maras and Mannings said to do it
gidie  
Go Terps : 12/30/2020 1:13 pm : link
There isn't a 3 year old on earth that's been alive to see the Giants win 6 games in a season.

What you don't know could fill a fucking book, man. You're not someone whose posts I seek out.
RE: RE: Another point, regarding Gettleman...  
family progtitioner : 12/30/2020 1:14 pm : link
In comment 15099477 Danny Dimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15099470 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.

That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.

Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?

Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.




Jones was Eli's pick. Eli and Peyton was at duke every offseason training him. Jones isnt DG fault. Im damn sure he wouldnt pick him but the Maras and Mannings said to do it


Jones was forced on the Giants by the Mannings and the Barkley injury is fake. Dude...
RE: RE: RE: I still haven't seen anyone answer yes to this question  
bw in dc : 12/30/2020 1:15 pm : link
In comment 15099464 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15099440 bw in dc said:




I think he'd get the chance to compete if he had these same two years under his belt. Plus...

1. Very inexpensive as a UDFA. So we could still hit paydirt.
2. Does have interesting skills that fit the modern game.
3. NFL experience.

Furthermore, I think the narrative of "he needs more help to see what we actually have" would be more tolerable because of the UFDA status. I mean, there had to be some really good reasons why he wasn't drafted, and most likely he didn't have the ability to elevate the play of others...



That’s the point SY was making. Your expectations of what a second year QB can do are preposterous. 2nd year QBs, regardless of how elite they are, turn out to be, or draft status, aren’t elevating this cast of characters. Put 2nd year Allen in this offense missing it’s only difference maker and the stats aren’t looking much better.


If believing that a "lottery pick", especially a QB, is supposed to be a difference maker and game changer, then yes I am guilty of being preposterous.

But I will continue to insist the QB isn't just 1/11th of the offense; and thus he can only be as good as his surrounding parts. I just expect more.
RE: RE: RE: Another point, regarding Gettleman...  
Danny Dimes : 12/30/2020 1:17 pm : link
In comment 15099479 family progtitioner said:
Quote:
In comment 15099477 Danny Dimes said:


Quote:


In comment 15099470 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.

That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.

Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?

Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.




Jones was Eli's pick. Eli and Peyton was at duke every offseason training him. Jones isnt DG fault. Im damn sure he wouldnt pick him but the Maras and Mannings said to do it



Jones was forced on the Giants by the Mannings and the Barkley injury is fake. Dude...


Barkley injury? Has nothing toi do with Jones pick. Why arent the Mannings at Duke Practicing any more now? I guess your blind ass thinks its all coincidience
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