Allen:
58%
3089 yards
20 TDs
9 Interceptions
14 fumbles
47.9 QBR
85.3 Rate
Jones:
62%
2714 yards
9 tds
9 int
10 fumbles
QBR 63.3
Rate 78.9
Conclusion: as you can see, Allen wasn’t really any better except in TD passes thrown. I didn’t show this but I’m sure Josh Allen scored more tds with his legs too.
The point I want to make is simply this.....Josh Allen took off in year 3, not year 2. Sure his team won 10 games in year 2 while Jones probably wins 6. But Allen’s team primarily won because of their top tier defense, which Jones doesn’t have.
Allen took off when the Bills got him STEFON DIGGS, a true #1 receiver. Let’s watch and then judge Jones if and when we can get him such a toy to play with. Oh, I also think it would help Jones greatly to give him an OC who is creative and not old school like Garrett. After all, Jones did throw for 24 tds and over 300 yards often as a rookie in Shurmur’s offense.
What I don't get is that you fail to realize he has played 25 NFL games. It's like you automatically think a kid who is 23 is supposed to be good at everything regarding the position of QB.
That play against Tampa, while bad, is not a reason to just say Jones won't be a very good NFL quarterback. If he's still doing that in year 3 or 4, then yes, he's going to be limited as a QB.
It's like saying a wide receiver who struggles early on can't be a great wide receiver. Same thing applies to Jones. You need to just relax and give it some fucking time man.
In terms of throwing people open, etc. the OP’s post is very relevant. Allen completed 58% of his passes in year 2, Jones is at 62%. Many Bills fans were not convinced about Allen prior to this season because of his inconsistency, particularly his inaccuracy. Huge turnaround this season.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
I find it quite humorous that some of those who defend Jones by sighting the lack of talent of the OL and skill position players, are also staunch defenders of Gettleman and the job he's done here.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
+1
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Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
I find it quite humorous that some of those who defend Jones by sighting the lack of talent of the OL and skill position players, are also staunch defenders of Gettleman and the job he's done here.
This rebuild was a total gut job. This offseason will be focused on playmakers. They had to get the lines right first which it seems like we are well on our way to doing.
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Dion Lewis is an 8 year veteran who entered this season with 172 receptions.
Watch the link I provided. Pause it at 14:31. Lewis is wide open...there are about 5 yards of separation between him and the TB safety. It was man coverage across the board.
Jones is supposed to throw his receivers open. On this crucial play he threw his receiver into coverage.
I’ve seen the play a million times. I’m not saying that Jones couldn’t complete that pass, but I still think it’s a crap play call with the game on the line. I am personally not a big Dion Lewis fan, he’s like Shane Vereen part 2.
How is it a crap call if he is open?
Nobody cares if you aren't a Lewis fan...the GM signed him and the coaches played him. Oh, and he got open on the play so he did his job there.
Good lord.
This play is a good example of why he's been so poor in the redzone:
- The ball must be thrown when Lewis is at about the 2 yard line. Jones waits until Lewis is in the endzone.
- The ball must be thrown out in front of Lewis, leading him to the pylon. The ball is thrown to his back shoulder.
Indecisive. Inaccurate.
Yes it happens. But when he threw Shepherd open last week he got criticized for locking onto his first read.
Veteran quarterbacks every week make bad throws
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Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
I find it quite humorous that some of those who defend Jones by sighting the lack of talent of the OL and skill position players, are also staunch defenders of Gettleman and the job he's done here.
More sad that they can't even keep their many agendas straight so they don't box themselves into corners.
The real "crafty" ones started posting about their indifference to Gettleman earlier this year. In case they needed an exit strategy.
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In comment 15099470 Go Terps said:
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Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
I find it quite humorous that some of those who defend Jones by sighting the lack of talent of the OL and skill position players, are also staunch defenders of Gettleman and the job he's done here.
This rebuild was a total gut job. This offseason will be focused on playmakers. They had to get the lines right first which it seems like we are well on our way to doing.
You really think we're "well on our way" to fixing the OL? Sure they had a 3 game stretch where they looked okay but they certainly haven't looked good lately.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
To me, this is false because it assumes Jones and Allen have the same skill sets. And they don't. Allen is the more gifted.
I don't know how anyone can watch Allen in 2019, his 2nd year, and say something like, "Gee, that guy is different. He's wild and goes off-script, but there is a lot there if the light ever goes on..."
Do you watch Jones and say anything similar to yourself?
Doubles TDs and wins while reducing turnovers. It wasn’t just year 3. He made the jump in year 2 and was significantly better than Jones.
The ‘Process”? Jones is not on the same path. There is no comparison of these guys after year 2 and that doesn’t even consider the clear difference in talent.
He has so many TDs because of the QB.
He won’t be a #2. When Brown comes back he’s back to the bench.
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In comment 15099650 BlueVinnie said:
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In comment 15099470 Go Terps said:
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Gettleman put together the surrounding roster, which everyone says completely sucks and is dragging Jones down. Gettleman failed abysmally at assembling the roster.
That's fine. I agree with that. Gettleman should be fired with prejudice for the players he put around Jones.
Gettleman also drafted Jones. Why should we think he got it right with Jones when he got it so wrong everywhere else? Doesn't it seem more logical that both the surrounding players AND Jones stink, considering they were all brought in under the same pathetic, incompetent, dipshit of a GM?
Many of you are placing faith in Daniel Jones, and for the life of me I can't understand it.
I find it quite humorous that some of those who defend Jones by sighting the lack of talent of the OL and skill position players, are also staunch defenders of Gettleman and the job he's done here.
This rebuild was a total gut job. This offseason will be focused on playmakers. They had to get the lines right first which it seems like we are well on our way to doing.
You really think we're "well on our way" to fixing the OL? Sure they had a 3 game stretch where they looked okay but they certainly haven't looked good lately.
I think we are close. These guys are young with the exception of Zeitler. This is the best line we have had in quite some time. Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates look to be mainstays. Hernandez will have one more year to prove it (probably at right guard) and Peart has shown promise.
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Dion Lewis is an 8 year veteran who entered this season with 172 receptions.
Watch the link I provided. Pause it at 14:31. Lewis is wide open...there are about 5 yards of separation between him and the TB safety. It was man coverage across the board.
Jones is supposed to throw his receivers open. On this crucial play he threw his receiver into coverage.
I’ve seen the play a million times. I’m not saying that Jones couldn’t complete that pass, but I still think it’s a crap play call with the game on the line. I am personally not a big Dion Lewis fan, he’s like Shane Vereen part 2.
Just when I thought I'd seen every possible excuse for Jones's poor play, here we are blaming the play-caller for creating a wide open receiver on one of the easiest throws a QB can make.
The play worked, absolutely and unequivocally. Jones fucked it up twice. First by patting the ball 5 times and throwing it late, and subsequently by throwing it poorly. If he can't make that throw, what are we even talking about here?
In the game in Tampa last year, Jones showed some magic. He was playing loose and just going for it. Granted that Tampa D was atrocious, but Jones looked the part.
This play is a good example of why he's been so poor in the redzone:
- The ball must be thrown when Lewis is at about the 2 yard line. Jones waits until Lewis is in the endzone.
- The ball must be thrown out in front of Lewis, leading him to the pylon. The ball is thrown to his back shoulder.
Indecisive. Inaccurate.
Listen thats exactly where that ball needs to go. But 58 is the one really making the play here. He is sitting on the passing lane because he knows exactly what we are running and recognizes it right away. It's what causes the hesitation in the play and why its a failure. Not sure if he makes the play or not, but he is certainly in position to do so. This is exactly what happened there and definetly not a fucking indictment on why we are bad in the redzone.
I feel like a lot of people on here almost want him to fail. It’s strange. Give the guy another year and see what he can do with some better receivers. Allen emerged in year 3, Jones has played 25 games.
I'm all for hyperbole, but do you really feel comfortable writing that?
To me, "unbelievable accurate" is when I watch a guy like Rodgers and I'm actually surprised when he misses.
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a play, where the defender made a very headsy play (but because he wasn't actually "involved" in the result most people have no idea he made a play) right after he delivers an absolute dime to Tate's dead body for 19 yards for the to tie score. It's bananas! How many times is Allen making that exact throw? Not too many. And I'd 100 percent rather have Allen than DJ, but people just refuse to believe that DJ really has an unbelievable accurate arm with touch. But its not rifle so shrug.
I'm all for hyperbole, but do you really feel comfortable writing that?
To me, "unbelievable accurate" is when I watch a guy like Rodgers and I'm actually surprised when he misses.
Not unbelievable accurate, should change that to very accurate. When I watch DJ in that department, I actually see a lot of Aaron Rogers game in there. Rogers had 3 years to work on his throwing to sitting on bench just working on it. We really have no idea what he would have looked like in his first 3 years, which is a tough one, because he's the best QB in a generation.
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In comment 15099698 Zeke's Alibi said:
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a play, where the defender made a very headsy play (but because he wasn't actually "involved" in the result most people have no idea he made a play) right after he delivers an absolute dime to Tate's dead body for 19 yards for the to tie score. It's bananas! How many times is Allen making that exact throw? Not too many. And I'd 100 percent rather have Allen than DJ, but people just refuse to believe that DJ really has an unbelievable accurate arm with touch. But its not rifle so shrug.
I'm all for hyperbole, but do you really feel comfortable writing that?
To me, "unbelievable accurate" is when I watch a guy like Rodgers and I'm actually surprised when he misses.
Not unbelievable accurate, should change that to very accurate. When I watch DJ in that department, I actually see a lot of Aaron Rogers game in there. Rogers had 3 years to work on his throwing to sitting on bench just working on it. We really have no idea what he would have looked like in his first 3 years, which is a tough one, because he's the best QB in a generation.
Ive always wondered that about Rodgers. How would he have panned out if he came in right away. I am sure there are a lot of QB’s who may have ended up being terrific players if they had a few years to learn. David Carr always seems like a guy whose career was destroyed by coming in right away on a team with an abysmal line. He took so many hits he was basically shell shocked after a while.
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What should the Bears do with him? They have a winning record with him and his numbers aren’t bad.
If you don’t think Trubisky should be resigned, I assume the view would be the same with Jones in 1-2 years.
Trubisky is generally viewed as a miss, and not a very good player. Interesting to compare his four years to Jones's two:
Trubisky: 50 games (49 starts), 63.6% completions, 4.2% TD, 2.3% INT, .54 fumbles/game, 6.7 Y/A, 6.5 AY/A, 29-20 record as a starter
Jones: 26 games (25 starts), 62.0% completions, 3.7% TD, 2.4% INT, 1.08 fumbles/game, 6.5 Y/A, 6.2 AY/A, 7-18 record as a starter
The numbers speak for themselves.
You bring up a good point. As you know, the Bears got very down on Trub and replaced him for about 5 games with Foles. Trub did not look good before that. Then, all of a sudden, he comes back in and BOOM....HE GETS IT!
This is year 4, not year 2. Why don’t we see by this that sometimes 25 games is not enough to judge a qb, especially one with little talent surrounding him. You have to admit, Trub has many more cute toys to play with than Danny.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
Thank you Ben....glad to know some people “get what we are trying to say” on threads like this one. I guess some people are either too emotional or too caught up in their biases that they can’t listen and reason calmly.
Please Eric, post more. You have great insight. Thanks
Doubles TDs and wins while reducing turnovers. It wasn’t just year 3. He made the jump in year 2 and was significantly better than Jones.
The ‘Process”? Jones is not on the same path. There is no comparison of these guys after year 2 and that doesn’t even consider the clear difference in talent.
20 tds, not 29
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a play, where the defender made a very headsy play (but because he wasn't actually "involved" in the result most people have no idea he made a play) right after he delivers an absolute dime to Tate's dead body for 19 yards for the to tie score. It's bananas! How many times is Allen making that exact throw? Not too many. And I'd 100 percent rather have Allen than DJ, but people just refuse to believe that DJ really has an unbelievable accurate arm with touch. But its not rifle so shrug.
I feel like a lot of people on here almost want him to fail. It’s strange. Give the guy another year and see what he can do with some better receivers. Allen emerged in year 3, Jones has played 25 games.
And if he's still bad next year the Giants will have wasted another 3 years of this "rebuild" and will be starting over, at least at QB. Again.
There's a real danger that making super duper extra sure Jones isn't the guy does nothing but set us back again.
I for one cannot wait to get past this dark stain on the franchise that has been Dave Gettlemans tenure. 5 years from now he'll be remembered like Phil Jackson is by Knicks fans
Comparing Allen and Jones is an exercise in futility, Allen was a raw prospect with very little NFL coaching, who had a world of physical talent. Jones had 4 years of NFL caliber coaching at the position and another year under the NFL qb guru, Pat Shurmur. Allen has gotten better every year since year 1, Jones took a massive step back.
Some of you do not realize that it could take years to find your next franchise guy. You don’t step into the next franchise qb because the dinosaur GM says he found one. The Bills are a great example, how many years between Kelly and Allen? Th Giants could be in for a long time between Manning and the next true franchise guy, and it’s a reality a lot of BBI does not want to face. Right now Jones simply does not look the part.
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29 Tds, 9 INTs. 10 win team.
Doubles TDs and wins while reducing turnovers. It wasn’t just year 3. He made the jump in year 2 and was significantly better than Jones.
The ‘Process”? Jones is not on the same path. There is no comparison of these guys after year 2 and that doesn’t even consider the clear difference in talent.
20 tds, not 29
One reason why I was so enamored with Lamar Jackson. Too bad he didn’t fall into our lap in round 2.
Hey Ron, didn’t you know.....half of BBI just knew he would be an All Pro in his third year immediately after the second year. I guess they knew this because he ran for 9 tds that year. Certainly not because of his passing.
For what it’s worth, I would like anyone who said Allen would be an All Pro in his third year to link an archived thread showing you stated such. I would like to give the credit to those who actually went on record to utter such prophecy.
It seems the predictions on Allen were more measured than that...
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How many games Allen would have won with this Giant roster.
Hey Ron, didn’t you know.....half of BBI just knew he would be an All Pro in his third year immediately after the second year. I guess they knew this because he ran for 9 tds that year. Certainly not because of his passing.
For what it’s worth, I would like anyone who said Allen would be an All Pro in his third year to link an archived thread showing you stated such. I would like to give the credit to those who actually went on record to utter such prophecy.
If it counts for anything I thought Allen was going to be a real good one after watching him last year. He was also my 2nd favorite QB in that draft after Mayfield. On that same vein, I think DJ is on a trajectory to be a good QB as well, maybe not Allens elite ceiling (didn't see that coming) but more like a perennial top 8-12 guy. At the end of the day who knows. I hope I'm underselling it!
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How many games Allen would have won with this Giant roster.
Hey Ron, didn’t you know.....half of BBI just knew he would be an All Pro in his third year immediately after the second year. I guess they knew this because he ran for 9 tds that year. Certainly not because of his passing.
For what it’s worth, I would like anyone who said Allen would be an All Pro in his third year to link an archived thread showing you stated such. I would like to give the credit to those who actually went on record to utter such prophecy.
Lol, I think what probably happened is all of those people that we thought were saying Rosen was going to be great were actually typing Allen and it was mysteriously auto-correcting to Rosen.
What the hell does it have to do with 58 sitting in the passing lane after recognizing the play? If DJ doesn't recognize it, it gets batted down. It's hard to tell if he was in a position to make that play without all 22 but it certainly looks like. DJ did what he could there, when you have OLB's that don't crash and sit on plays, the playcalling is too obvious. Not all on Garrett though, there's only so much we can run down there with this cast. He still almost made the play and with a better throw, he does. Not easy to do moving forward, but I'm impressed he didn't just try to force it in there and recognized it real-time.
What gets lost in the sauce was the previous pass and catch to Tate. Now that was a very nice play on both ends.
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Persistently late getting the ball to the receiver. Look at that aspect of his game. It happens often.
What the hell does it have to do with 58 sitting in the passing lane after recognizing the play? If DJ doesn't recognize it, it gets batted down. It's hard to tell if he was in a position to make that play without all 22 but it certainly looks like. DJ did what he could there, when you have OLB's that don't crash and sit on plays, the playcalling is too obvious. Not all on Garrett though, there's only so much we can run down there with this cast. He still almost made the play and with a better throw, he does. Not easy to do moving forward, but I'm impressed he didn't just try to force it in there and recognized it real-time.
I agree Zeke, I didn’t see it this way until reading your post. This is part of the whole “you need to get Jones some weapons this offseason” argument. When you have legitimate threats that teams have to account for guys like Lewis would be wide open on this play instead of having a linebacker spying the play and forcing a tight throw. I always think back to 2008 after Burress shot himself and our offense basically imploded. That offense was a well oiled machine in terms of the pass and run working with one another. The minute Burress went down teams could stack the box because they had no one to fear on the outside. This is our current predicament and why Jones is not deserving of all the shit he gets on here at the moment.
Just call it what is was - a late delivery.
Yea, I don’t know how we’re ignoring Allen’s 510 rushing yards and 9 TDs. If he put up those numbers this year, we would’ve clinched a playoff spot already.
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In comment 15099670 KWALL2 said:
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29 Tds, 9 INTs. 10 win team.
Doubles TDs and wins while reducing turnovers. It wasn’t just year 3. He made the jump in year 2 and was significantly better than Jones.
The ‘Process”? Jones is not on the same path. There is no comparison of these guys after year 2 and that doesn’t even consider the clear difference in talent.
20 tds, not 29
One reason why I was so enamored with Lamar Jackson. Too bad he didn’t fall into our lap in round 2.
Second round? Lamar should have been our pick at 4. He's better than Barkley at running and Jones at passing. What a disaster that pick was.
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In comment 15099448 gidiefor said:
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chit sandwich he has for skill players on office is talking out of his or her respective ass
How do you know Jones isn't dragging down the rest of the roster?
I can point to specific plays the skill players made where Jones failed to make the right play. I can point to plays where Jones had sufficient time in the pocket, didn't get the ball out, and took a bad sack and fumbled.
It's easy to point at the surrounding cast as the cause, and I agree they aren't great. But that doesn't make Jones good either.
I don't know why so many are so invested in giving him the benefit of the doubt. What has he done to earn it?
Go Terps -- you are a known rip it downer -- so one would expect you to take the off with their heads route given any sort of controversy -- so I'm including you in the gas that is coming out the rear
You really don't know what you are talking about as far as this goes -- you want results and you aren't getting them -- so you'd rather rip it down and start all over -- I get it -- so do most 3 year olds I know
Nice! Now the mods are skipping over the post itself to label and insult the poster! I guess Eric finally scrapped the civility thing and asked the mods to go in a different direction?
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It is not comparing the PLAYER, its comparing the PROCESS.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
Thank you Ben....glad to know some people “get what we are trying to say” on threads like this one. I guess some people are either too emotional or too caught up in their biases that they can’t listen and reason calmly.
Or maybe it’s...GASP...they simply don’t agree with you!
There are plenty of posters on this thread that pointed out additional facts and statistics as a counterpoint to your view. But no, they can’t have a valid point. They must just be dumber than you, or have an agenda. There is just no way any reasonable person could see things differently than you.
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In comment 15099647 Ben in Tampa said:
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It is not comparing the PLAYER, its comparing the PROCESS.
It took 3 years to build Allen into a player the football universe believes in. He was not the savior at the start of this season that he is considered now.
If Josh Allen was the Giants QB the last two years, the same idiots would be screaming to get rid of him before this season started.
Thank you Ben....glad to know some people “get what we are trying to say” on threads like this one. I guess some people are either too emotional or too caught up in their biases that they can’t listen and reason calmly.
Or maybe it’s...GASP...they simply don’t agree with you!
There are plenty of posters on this thread that pointed out additional facts and statistics as a counterpoint to your view. But no, they can’t have a valid point. They must just be dumber than you, or have an agenda. There is just no way any reasonable person could see things differently than you.
Not true Mike. I don’t need people to think like I do. What I take issue with are empty words or not presenting an argument t with some merit or making unfounded accusations, like what you posted here.
So let me hold your hand and help you here...
The thread’s purpose was to give us hope to see that just like Allen took off in year 3, so can our boy, Dimes.
But if you noticed, there are some who absolutely don’t like DJ and are already convinced we should move on. These guys absolutely don’t want a year 3 trial and have provided a lot of empty words and illogical arguments to support their case. The ones that kill me are the guys who say....”you can’t make that comparison between these two...”
Ahhhh, why not?
For the record Mike, I don’t care if someone wants DG or DJ gone....fine by me.