If NE lets Thuney walk -- I'd love him to be the focal point and priority of the offseason. Even at the expense of the Giants own free agents.
He'll be 28, in his 6th NFL. Sixteen game starter from day one and never missed a game. Second team All Pro in 2019, and he's having another solid season this year. He's not a mauler, but he's a tactician and as good of interior pass protector as there is in the NFL.
If the Giants cut Zeitler and Solder -- that frees up $36M dollars over the next 2 years. Thuney is probably inline for a deal north of Andrus Peat's contract -- 5/57.5/23 guaranteed, but this is the type of player who can change the direction of a line.
Thomas/Lemieux/Gates/Thuney/Peart -- with Hernandez and a swing tackle on the bench is a line that can grow together and develop into a strong unit.
Im game. Would love to get Parsons/Surtain in the 1st and Wyatt Smith in the 2nd then go WR/TE in 3rd.
Considering WH has underperformed and is a free agent after '21, when do you want to address Guard? You need more than 2 and Zeitler is almost a lock to be cut. Sign one, draft one.
Cutting Zeitler would literally save 12M next year, and cutting Solder literally saves 24M over the next two years.
36M will most definitely cover the guarantees in Thuney’s contract.
Look at this way — would you rather have three years of Thuney or 2 + 1 years of Solder and Zeitler?
That couldn’t be further from the truth. Releasing players who aren’t worth what they are about to make is more like the bank letting you give back the car and stop making payments after you totaled it.
And then you go buy a new car that actually runs with the money.
Thuney has had a good career, but I think the better plan is for the Giants to go forward with Lemieux and Hernandez if they decide to cut Zeitler.
Thuney has had a good career, but I think the better plan is for the Giants to go forward with Lemieux and Hernandez if they decide to cut Zeitler.
The Giants conceivably could have a line of Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, UFA, Peart. That’s 4 homegrown players with 3 on rookie deals.
Having one UFA on a big contract, who’s likely coming off back-to-back All Pro seasons seems like a fair allocation of resources.
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$12-$14 mill for a guard. They'd be swapping Zeitler for Thuney and may be paying more...
Cutting Zeitler would literally save 12M next year, and cutting Solder literally saves 24M over the next two years.
36M will most definitely cover the guarantees in Thuney’s contract.
Look at this way — would you rather have three years of Thuney or 2 + 1 years of Solder and Zeitler?
You do not throw good money after bad. NFW do I want Thuney.
They Save $6 mill cutting Solder and $12 on Zeitler. So they are swapping Thuney for Zeitler...seems stupid waste of money.
If we re-sign Leonard Williams, that's one of them.
That will leave 1-2 other signing.
If we can make one FA signing this off season, do you want it to be Thuney?
This would be prioritizing a signing like Thuney over an edge rusher, a WR or a CB.
I like Thuney as a player, but I wouldn't prioritize him.
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$12-$14 mill for a guard. They'd be swapping Zeitler for Thuney and may be paying more...
Cutting Zeitler would literally save 12M next year, and cutting Solder literally saves 24M over the next two years.
36M will most definitely cover the guarantees in Thuney’s contract.
Look at this way — would you rather have three years of Thuney or 2 + 1 years of Solder and Zeitler?
Literally?
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the Giants HAVE to get contributions from players on rookie deals, keeping the cycle going of bringing in FA's to fill holes just doesn't work without balance and the OL is one little microcosm of this situation.
Thuney has had a good career, but I think the better plan is for the Giants to go forward with Lemieux and Hernandez if they decide to cut Zeitler.
The Giants conceivably could have a line of Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, UFA, Peart. That’s 4 homegrown players with 3 on rookie deals.
Having one UFA on a big contract, who’s likely coming off back-to-back All Pro seasons seems like a fair allocation of resources.
yeah, but you're not considering the investment in Solder and Zeitler - which I get are sunk costs (and not fully recoup-able) and I wouldn't necessarily oppose a Thuney signing, but i also wouldn't forgo another position to spend more FA investment on the line. Have the Giants failed more at any other position bringing in FA's? Not that that should dissuade future investment, but in this case I'd roll with what they have.
I'd probably go with Thomas, Hernandez, Gates, Lemieux, Solder/Peart with Zeitler either cut or depth and if he's cut and that cap savings invested elsewhere.
For all the criticism Belichick has been getting about not finding WR talent in the draft, he is very good at finding OL talent. So I could see him trusting that he could find an ample replacement if they let Thuney go.
The difference is Thuney is younger than Solder was, and more importantly he’s actually good.
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The last OL Pats player did not work out namely Solder.
The difference is Thuney is younger than Solder was, and more importantly he’s actually good.
He is good on BB's team. There is a reason BB never re-signs his players. He can get another one just as good cheaper.
You commit as many resources as it takes to fix the OL! Them 5 up front are the most important players on the field. A good OL is the motor that powers the car. A bad OL on a team with great skill positions is like a Dodge Hellcat with a 4 cylinder. Looks good but no power!
Thuney has had a good career, but I think the better plan is for the Giants to go forward with Lemieux and Hernandez if they decide to cut Zeitler.
Agreed
Of all the outcomes, I really hope the Giants do better than Hernandez. That would be a step backwards.
Talk about damning to Gettleman and front office evaluation process.
Will Hernandez needs to dig down deep and turn it around.
Hernandez = bust benched for a 5th round rookie project who can't pass block
Carter = started 19 out 48 games injured ruptured Achilles was a jag before he got hurt
BJ Hill = bust non contributor 17 starts in 47 games 0 this year
Kyle Lauletta = joke
RJ McIntosh = bust 12 appearances in 47 games 0 starts inactive every game this year
That's the recipe for being one of the very worst teams in the NFL. Forget about signing free agents the Giants need to figure out how to draft.
2019 was somewhat better but not a single impact player out of the 10 picks and if it turns out that this is Jones' ceiling it will be another disaster. 2020 seems to be the best of the three Gettleman drafts so far a few starters and several contributors but again zero impact franchise players. Until the Giants start drafting multiple impact players every year they're going to be stuck at the bottom of the league.
Hernandez = bust benched for a 5th round rookie project who can't pass block
Carter = started 19 out 48 games injured ruptured Achilles was a jag before he got hurt
BJ Hill = bust non contributor 17 starts in 47 games 0 this year
Kyle Lauletta = joke
RJ McIntosh = bust 12 appearances in 47 games 0 starts inactive every game this year
That's the recipe for being one of the very worst teams in the NFL. Forget about signing free agents the Giants need to figure out how to draft.
Add in maybe the worst set of free agent signings/contracts in recent NFL history, and 2018 was just a ridiculously bad offseason for the NY Giants.
But hey, every GM doesn't bat a thousand.
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Barkley = damaged goods injured most of seasons 2 & 3.
Hernandez = bust benched for a 5th round rookie project who can't pass block
Carter = started 19 out 48 games injured ruptured Achilles was a jag before he got hurt
BJ Hill = bust non contributor 17 starts in 47 games 0 this year
Kyle Lauletta = joke
RJ McIntosh = bust 12 appearances in 47 games 0 starts inactive every game this year
That's the recipe for being one of the very worst teams in the NFL. Forget about signing free agents the Giants need to figure out how to draft.
Add in maybe the worst set of free agent signings/contracts in recent NFL history, and 2018 was just a ridiculously bad offseason for the NY Giants.
But hey, every GM doesn't bat a thousand.
Solder was another big waste of money, and the highest paid offensive lineman in the league at the time, and he replaced another bust, and #1 pick in Flowers.
I know, it's crazy. Acquiring picks instead of trading them. Trading down for more picks. Using those picks to select good players who start immediately.
my assessment is that Zeitler is a decent guard, Lemieux showed a lot of good stuff and Hernandez had his moments too -- the Giants have to make hay with what they have -- continue to grow this line and maybe continue to draft 4-6 rounders and shop for value in the UDFA pool for the Oline that can grow into the system.
The only player on the Oline that I am really not enamored with -- who we've seen in several iterations over the past half decade is Flemming -- I won't be sorry to see him replaced in the least - maybe Solder will replace him next year -- maybe a combination of Solder/Peart - in fact I see Solder as being a really good swing tackle for the rest of his contract -- you could cut him and help the cap out -- but I think he's of more value to the Giants than any replacement they could get for the Oline because he's an experienced Tackle who has excelled in the type of system Judge has brought to the Giants
I like Thomas at LT, I like Lemieux/Hernandez at LG, I like Gates at C, I like Zeitler at RG -- and I like Solder/Peart at RT -- those 7 plus a crew in development should work for the Giants imo -- Let me also say this -- Eric -- who is a pretty astute evaluator of the Giants thinks this Oline is one of the best in the NFL -- I agree with him and it is on the upswing -- they showed a really good pocket in several games this season - better than we've seen in a loooong time -- you have to stick with this group -- bringing in Thuney is kind of like bringing in a Solder - it may or may not work and it is a very high price to pay for a roll of the dice. By the way everything being said about Thuney was also said about Solder in the year he went into FA and we signed him.
The Giants need to fill so many key holes -- right now the O line really isn't one of areas -- there I said it -- Gettleman has fixed the Oline -- let us look elsewhere now
Second, Eric really said he thinks the Giants OL is one of the best in the NFL? Not that it's improving which I could believe, has shown a couple flashes which I could believe, or even gives you a glimpse at times at what a good OL should look like I can believe, but one of the best in the NFL?
Holy shit I wish that was true, but in my amateur opinion based on today and based on watching a lot of NFL football it's not close to true.
Second, Eric really said he thinks the Giants OL is one of the best in the NFL? Not that it's improving which I could believe, has shown a couple flashes which I could believe, or even gives you a glimpse at times at what a good OL should look like I can believe, but one of the best in the NFL?
Holy shit I wish that was true, but in my amateur opinion based on today and based on watching a lot of NFL football it's not close to true.
Yeah -- he was panned -- but he was also major league hyped and a lot of posters on BBI were drooling for him and also the carolina guard Gettleman had originally found that was available
The Giants had to sign Solder that year to have a more credible Oline -- and Flowers had to go -- his attitude was a coach killer attitude -- and he was awful at Left tackle -- let's face it -- Solder was an upgrade from Flowers even if he wasn't a world beater
Yes Eric said it - one of the best Olines in the NFL
"Gettleman has fixed the Oline".
"Giants OL is one of the best in the NFL".
Have some of you fallen down and hit your head on the ground?
And I would have supported Norwell too, not because I knew a ton about him, but he was reportedly the best OL in free agency. I think he's been bad too, not sure.
but most people felt like a) if people expected Solder to step in and be a pro-bowl LT they'd have their expectations missed and b) Solder was way overpaid.
You think this has anything to do with why the Giants score about 15 points a game?
@Giants in 12 weeks have developed a real; functioning; protective Offensive Line. It's truly an amazing transformation and a credit to Judge and his Staff. Here are a smattering of 10/80 snaps. #BaldysBreakdowns
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Link - ( New Window )
gidiefor : Mod : 12/11/2020 6:27 pm : link : Delete
the best offensive line in the nfl? that's a bold statement.
RE: whoa!
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/11/2020 7:03 pm : link : Delete
In comment 15075780 gidiefor said:
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the best offensive line in the nfl? that's a bold statement.
I said one of the best.
Look around the league... good offensive line play is an increasing rarity.
You don't see many teams maul other teams like the Giants are doing right now. Look at what they did against the Redskins front that gave the Steelers problems.
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Giants Offense dead last (or first depending on how you want to look at it).
- Both Hernandez and Zeitler are UFAs after next year, the Giants will be in the market for a guard very soon no matter what
- Zeitler is very expensive next year going into his 10th NFL season
- Hernandez has not played a good stretch of football in nearly 2 years
- Cutting Solder and Zeitler frees up more than enough money to cover the guarantees of a top tier interior player
- The Giants had a few quality games, but are still a bottom third rushing team, bottom 5 passing team, and bottom 2 scoring team
- The fucking Jaguars have scored 35 more points than the Giants this year
But either you're Red in your view of hope:
"Hope is a dangerous thing my friend, it can kill a man"
Or you're Andy in your view of hope:
"hope is a good thing maybe even the best of things and good things never die"
I subscribed to the Andy view of hope and the Cardinals, Browns and Ravens killed it. So, I'm going to be a laggard on the Giants OL going forward. None of those teams had better run D's (statistically) than Seattle and all three were basically middle of the pack in pass rush.
I mean when else have you see an OL give up 3 consecutive sacks and be called one of the best OL's in the league? I'm sure it's happened before, but probably rarely.
"Giant fans are so thirsty for better football, they’ll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there’s no water, they’ll drink the sand."
Andrew Shepard - The American President
the Giants just don't have the horses to go toe to toe with anyone relying on their passing game right now --they just don't -- some are laying that at the feet of the oline -- fine -- whatever your viewpoint is the film does not lie -- look at the Baldinger videos of it
I, for one, believe the Giants have an Oline
But either you're Red in your view of hope:
"Hope is a dangerous thing my friend, it can kill a man"
Or you're Andy in your view of hope:
"hope is a good thing maybe even the best of things and good things never die"
I subscribed to the Andy view of hope and the Cardinals, Browns and Ravens killed it. So, I'm going to be a laggard on the Giants OL going forward. None of those teams had better run D's (statistically) than Seattle and all three were basically middle of the pack in pass rush.
I mean when else have you see an OL give up 3 consecutive sacks and be called one of the best OL's in the league? I'm sure it's happened before, but probably rarely.
So,, yeah, I had hope. But the last 3 ripped that out from under me.
Jones has also lost one of his dimensions with his hamstring injury - The WR corps suck, Engram is a tease at best, Gallman is not and never was a bell cow running back, Morris is gimpy and Freeman and Barkley are on the sideline
Please -- there is no oline in the NFL that can overcome that game in and game out -- they just can't -- I don't care how good they are
There's some good tape out on this oline group, whether you want to believe it or not -- they are a pretty good group -- i really like what I'm seeing out of them --
even after the last game there is some very good tape out on Thomas from the Baltimore game -- there are concrete reasons to feel good about the future of this line
Jones has also lost one of his dimensions with his hamstring injury - The WR corps suck, Engram is a tease at best, Gallman is not and never was a bell cow running back, Morris is gimpy and Freeman and Barkley are on the sideline
Please -- there is no oline in the NFL that can overcome that game in and game out -- they just can't -- I don't care how good they are
There's some good tape out on this oline group, whether you want to believe it or not -- they are a pretty good group -- i really like what I'm seeing out of them --
even after the last game there is some very good tape out on Thomas from the Baltimore game -- there are concrete reasons to feel good about the future of this line
Was there tape of Flowers doing good things? In between all the bad? Just want some context for the Bakldy breakdowns.
I had lower expectations than most people for 2020, and my win total was between 3 and 5, I think the Giants missed my low expectations even if they win 6 games.
In 2018 we heard the opposing defenses were daring the Giants to throw, 8 in the box to stop Barkley, but then the team had Beckham, Shepard, Engram not to mention Barkley - multiple options to throw to and we were told the OL didn't give Eli enough time to throw to Beckham or Eli wasn't mobile enough and the Giants needed a new QB. Check that box.
What exactly do we need now?
All all-pro OL's, all-pro WR's, all-pro RB and flawless coaching?
At some point, as fans, can we expect the players on the team to just play better and the coaches to put them in positions to succeed, because the cycle is now eating itself as I am sure this off season the Giants will try and add wide receiver help, and that WR help likely won't be as good as Beckham.
Pass protection has consistently been bad all year long with clean pockets being a rarity and really needs no explanation. Yeah, I am sure Baldy could find a few good clips, but year long stats on pressures allowed don't lie.
The OL needed and got serious investment this past offseason. But nothing remains fixed and still need a solution at Right Tackle (or expect growing pains with Peart in 2021) and probably one new Guard. Need a backup Center or professional-level competition for Gates at Center as well.
But year, one of the best in the league.
the Oline in 2020 has been able to hold a pocket - and it's been able to play stunts -- it's not 100% yet -- but it's light years better than what we had in 2018
you had:
Nate Solder, Will Hernandez, Jon Halapio, Patrick Omameh, Ereck Flowers, Chad Wheeler, Jon Greco, John Jerry, Evan Brown
of those 9 - 7 were in the Cam Flemming school of football or worse - specifically Jon Halapio, Patrick Omameh, Ereck Flowers, Chad Wheeler, Jon Greco, John Jerry, Evan Brown
Right now Thomas is outplaying 2018 Solder -- let's say the LG has staus quo -- Gates makes Halapio look like a practice squad player at C -- Chad Wheeler cant even sniff Flemming's jock strop and I think Flemming is a Jag -- I'll take Zeitler against any one on that list --- there's really no reasonabe way to argue that the 2020 Oline isn't much better than the one in 2018
2018 (16 games)
24.4% pressure, 47 sacks, 44 hits
2020 (15 games)
29.1% pressure, 48 sacks, 56 hits
The Giants simply cannot protect the pocket. Whether it’s been healthy Jones, injured Jones, or McCoy — week in and out the Giants are awful.
The 2018 Giants scored 8 points more a game.
Now if you believe the Giants will be better next year because they are young, that’s possible. But it’s hard to support the notion they will be better off the results this year.
He was IMO the best OL coach in the league, every year in Boston (just about) the media would say the OL is in shambles and they didn't have a ton of high end investment in the OL, but every year it seemed like Brady had all day to throw and when they needed to run they did effectively.
Their lines were kind of like the 2007 Giants - littered with UDFA's late round picks and a couple premium draft picks only no FA investment.
The Giants don't have Dante Scarnecchia, as far as I can tell.
I get the buyer beware sentiment with the Patriots at large, but same logic could be applied to Joe Judge if you really want.
I get the buyer beware sentiment with the Patriots at large, but same logic could be applied to Joe Judge if you really want.
I'm not sure if Thuney had his best year or not- seems subjective, or how anyone really does definitively. but a player not missing a game is only a positive if the player is good, if not, who cares. Did Ereck Flowers miss games as a Giant? Bobby Hart? Those guys were too durable. lol.
Not putting Thuney in their class of player, but just pointing it out.
2018 - 3 sacks allowed, 4 penalties, 100% snaps
2019 - 1 sack allowed, 0 penalties, 99% snaps
2020 - 2 sacks allowed, 3 penalties, 97% snaps
That’s stellar production. The reason I’m so impressed with him this year is Cam Newton is actually getting equal pass protection time to 2019 Brady, (roughly the same time in the pocket).
2018 - 3 sacks allowed, 4 penalties, 100% snaps
2019 - 1 sack allowed, 0 penalties, 99% snaps
2020 - 2 sacks allowed, 3 penalties, 97% snaps
That’s stellar production. The reason I’m so impressed with him this year is Cam Newton is actually getting equal pass protection time to 2019 Brady, (roughly the same time in the pocket).
So how is 2020 better than 2019? Seems pretty clear 2019 was better.
Sounds subjective.
Do you think Cam being on a different planet from a mobility standpoint helps or hurts an OL? Seriously don't know. Sometimes it seems mobile QB's get sacked more than pocket passers, other times it seems less.
In 2018 (I skip 2019 b/c he only played 2 games) with CAR, Cam was sacked less (27 sacks in 14 games compared with 28 this year with NEW in 14 games).
In 2019, with the Patriots, Brady was sacked 27 times in 16 games and this year in TB he was sacked 20 times (in 15 games so far).
Plus, Cam did run for over 500 yards compared with 34 to Brady.
Seems like an indictment of Thuney, if you're using those metrics as a positive for him. Though I'm not clear if you give a guard all that credit or not, seem like unit stats, not individual and hard to credit or blame one person - which is why I say it's subjective.
But it does point to his ability to maintain excellent play without an all word position coach and QB. I don’t think anything in his 2020 performance indicates his play was a product of the former situations.
I have seen a ton of Patriots games (though admittedly not from the eye of an OL x and o's guy), he just doesn't seem special to me.
Also, if he is special, I doubt Belichick lets him go. Solder signed a second contract in NE as did Andrews and Cannon.
if Thuney is that great (which I am not convinced) I doubt the Patriots let him walk.
I think I’ve watched every Pats game the last 2 years (I have a group of buddies who are BU alumnus that have adopted me). Thuney gets mentioned constantly. He’s a great tactician. He was 2nd team All Pro last year, I suspect he’ll be that again. He’s a really, really good football player. I hope the Judge connection helps land him as a Giant.
2018 (16 games)
24.4% pressure, 47 sacks, 44 hits
2020 (15 games)
29.1% pressure, 48 sacks, 56 hits
The Giants simply cannot protect the pocket. Whether it’s been healthy Jones, injured Jones, or McCoy — week in and out the Giants are awful.
The 2018 Giants scored 8 points more a game.
Now if you believe the Giants will be better next year because they are young, that’s possible. But it’s hard to support the notion they will be better off the results this year.
Light years better than 2018 oline.
Uh huh.