is still the offensive line. I get the sense that a lot of Giants fans are tired of hearing about how the offensive line is the problem with the offense and feel like it must be something else since we've been talking about it for almost ten years now. But in case you haven't noticed....our offensive line SUCKS.
Here are the PFF grades of our offenisve linemen(I know a lot of people don't like PFF but let's be realistic here, none of us are sitting there grading tape of every snap of our offensive line, its the best thing we have):
Andrew Thomas - 61.0(67/84 T)
Shane Lemieux - 29.9(84/84 G)
Nick Gates - 57.3(28/36C)
Kevin Zeitler - 65.9(32/84 G)
Cam Fleming - 58.2(70/84 T)
Will Hernandez - 58.1
Matt Peart - 69.7(Only 150 snaps)
I hear a lot of people say we don't have any playmakers on offense and that we should draft a WR in the first round. Yeah, we don't have any playmakers...but playmakers don't matter if the quarterback is on the ground before the playmaker can even get open. The only time our offense produces at all is when we go against a terrible front seven. Maybe drafting a WR at whatever pick we end up with would be the logical choice, I don't know, but all I know is that it's not going to matter unless he has time to get open. The real problem is the terrible misallocation of resources towards the offensive line in the past decade. Think about all the high draft picks we have spent of linemen: Justin Pugh, Weston Richburg, Ereck Flowers, Will Hernandez, Andrew Thomas; and all of the money spent on other linemen brought in like Solder and Zeitler. I would say that we need to go out and get some linemen whether in the draft or in free agency, but this team's track record, under both Reese and Gettleman, of bringing in linemen is just unfathomably horrendous. Hopefully Thomas develops into a pro bowl left tackle and in no way am I saying he is a bust already but lets be honest, he has been horrible this year. So I don't know...what the hell do you do when you are apparantly too incompetent to fix your core problem? Whoever is responsible for scouting these linemen needs to go, I know that for sure.
This offense needs a new OC and a couple of weapons on the outside.
This offense needs a new OC and a couple of weapons on the outside.
The OL cannot pass block yet. Worst in the league in allowing pressures.
But most everybody is good or solid.
It doesn’t matter who, or what the OC is, or does. Nobody could make anything out of this offensive talant, or lack of.
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Is great, but I’ve seen teams with horrible offensive lines move the ball better than this team the past 3 weeks. Our offense is putrid. I think blame goes everywhere, the OC( maybe first, the 15 plays a game where everyone runs 4 yards and turns around sucks), the talent on the outside, the O Line, the QB play.
It doesn’t matter who, or what the OC is, or does. Nobody could make anything out of this offensive talant, or lack of.
I dont disagree with you, but again, i've seen teams with just as bad offensive lines/weapons put up points in this league. Giants haven't scored over 20 in almost 2 months. Its the 2020 NFL. I've watched the Jags and Cincy on their 3rd QBs move the ball better than the Giants.
-- look at what happened to the Browns when all their WRs got covid -- all of a sudden they went from first to worst -- this is not on the Oline at all --
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/01/02/2020-will-be-the-highest-scoring-season-in-nfl-history/
-- look at what happened to the Browns when all their WRs got covid -- all of a sudden they went from first to worst -- this is not on the Oline at all --
You can be fine with JAG Rb's in this league and i find it hard to compare the browns (on 1 night notice) having to go to practice squad WR's that have never taken a snap with Baker Mayfield vs. Sterling Shep, Darius Slayton, Evan Engram and Golden Tate (And believe me, I'm not saying they are world beaters)
-- look at what happened to the Browns when all their WRs got covid -- all of a sudden they went from first to worst -- this is not on the Oline at all --
OBJ has never been replaced, and Shepard hasn’t been as good without him, and that is when he plays, and isn’t injured. Engram is either hurt, or drops the ball, and Tate has been a waste of money. Slayton hasn’t been as good, and the RB’s are not going to give you much. This is all secondary to a bad OL.
-- look at what happened to the Browns when all their WRs got covid -- all of a sudden they went from first to worst -- this is not on the Oline at all --
In what world is the current state of the line acceptable? The only real developmental piece on the line is Thomas and maybe Gates or Peart(if he ever gets a chance to start). Assuming Zeitler is cut, you don't have a single league average lineman on that line. How is that not a problem?
Link - ( New Window )
I watch the Baldinger breakdown every week. That's against the Bengals. The line also did decent against the Seahawks, who have a horrible defense. How about the Arizona game, giving up 8 sacks or 6 sacks last week against Baltimore? Do you really think that just because they played serviceable against some god awful defenses a couple of weeks in a row that that means we're set up front? Jones has been pressured on 29.8% of dropbacks(3rd most in the league) and has been sacked 43 times in 13 games. That's good?
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or Brian Baldinger must have fallen off the wagon -- because this tape shows a very good offensive line Link - ( New Window )
I watch the Baldinger breakdown every week. That's against the Bengals. The line also did decent against the Seahawks, who have a horrible defense. How about the Arizona game, giving up 8 sacks or 6 sacks last week against Baltimore? Do you really think that just because they played serviceable against some god awful defenses a couple of weeks in a row that that means we're set up front? Jones has been pressured on 29.8% of dropbacks(3rd most in the league) and has been sacked 43 times in 13 games. That's good?
the Seahawks have a horrible defense? well that's a very credible statement now isn't it
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the problem with the Offense is that there are no skill players to throw to -- and that we have jag RBs with Barkley and Freeman sidelined
-- look at what happened to the Browns when all their WRs got covid -- all of a sudden they went from first to worst -- this is not on the Oline at all --
In what world is the current state of the line acceptable? The only real developmental piece on the line is Thomas and maybe Gates or Peart(if he ever gets a chance to start). Assuming Zeitler is cut, you don't have a single league average lineman on that line. How is that not a problem?
No Homer Jones, or LBJ, and no Jumbo Elliot, or Bart Oates, or no Mark Bavaria, or Tiki Barber.
The reality is it’s a process. Thomas, once about week 5, has been pretty good. His future looks bright. They made the right call on Gates. He’s been pretty good consistently all season. Lemieux has been very good run blocking. His pass blocking hard been terrible. He needs better strength and much better technique. Ditto with Peart. They can both play, but neither is ready to be a full time starter. This off season should help. Hernandez is a back up only. Sy’s original evaluation of him as he has lateral mobility deficiencies and he didn’t have him highly rated. He shouldn’t have been a second rd pick. Zeitler has been OK second half of the season. A good off season and this COULD be a pretty good line next year. It’s hard to be patient.
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In comment 15102468 gidiefor said:
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or Brian Baldinger must have fallen off the wagon -- because this tape shows a very good offensive line Link - ( New Window )
I watch the Baldinger breakdown every week. That's against the Bengals. The line also did decent against the Seahawks, who have a horrible defense. How about the Arizona game, giving up 8 sacks or 6 sacks last week against Baltimore? Do you really think that just because they played serviceable against some god awful defenses a couple of weeks in a row that that means we're set up front? Jones has been pressured on 29.8% of dropbacks(3rd most in the league) and has been sacked 43 times in 13 games. That's good?
the Seahawks have a horrible defense? well that's a very credible statement now isn't it
There defense is below average by essentially every measure. They are #32 in the league in passing yards againt. Also bottom 5 in rush yards against. They've have no pass rush most of the year except an occasional safety blitz from Jamal Adams. Unless you just woke up from a 7 year coma, I don't see how you could think the Seahawks still have a good defense.
The reality is it’s a process. Thomas, once about week 5, has been pretty good. His future looks bright. They made the right call on Gates. He’s been pretty good consistently all season. Lemieux has been very good run blocking. His pass blocking hard been terrible. He needs better strength and much better technique. Ditto with Peart. They can both play, but neither is ready to be a full time starter. This off season should help. Hernandez is a back up only. Sy’s original evaluation of him as he has lateral mobility deficiencies and he didn’t have him highly rated. He shouldn’t have been a second rd pick. Zeitler has been OK second half of the season. A good off season and this COULD be a pretty good line next year. It’s hard to be patient.
It still amazes me that people think this line will be better next year. IT WON’T.
Are you new as a fan of this team, new to this forum, or just slow?
2nd of all this is indeed a young and improving line, with further improvement a real possibility if an athletic stud like Peart develops into his full potential. Its too soon to tell with him one way or the other. Getting off the bus he looks an awful lot like a young Tyron Smith.
Lastly there's plenty to blame DG for if that's your base issue re the OL vet FA signings he made, but I doubt ANY of those guys are left aside from Zeitler (actually a vet trade acquisition) in 2021, and he's definitely serviceable.
If this is the best analysis you've got, I dont know what to tell you.
It's possible you are right, but your timing is way off.
At this point, you can reasonable project Thomas and Gates to achieve that status. However you can just as easily project that they won't. For them to get there they need to develop. As we saw with Hernandez, not all guys develop. Gate in particular is a guy that once DCs have a year of film, they may (or may not) start finding weaknesses, and it is possible we see a regression rather than a progression. We just don't know yet.
The jury is out on Lemiuex and Peart, but either way, both need a whole lot of development. You cannot count on them making the jump from where they are now to being plus level players. In fact, I would argue that less than 1 in 3 similar players ever make that jump.
Fleming is yet another stopgap and needs to be replaced. Zeitler is now on the wrong side of 30, and we can expect his play to begin to deteriorate from where it is now (which is not good)
Bottom line, is that this OL is a bottom line (at least bottom third). It is a lot of hope and wishful thinking that this set of OL will make a magical jump to plus level OL. It is also criminal neglect that it took DG 3 years to begin to address the OL in earnest (ie through the draft). The team needs to continue it's draft investments in the OL.
our entire WR is mediocre therefore noone can never get open
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is, because the OL has sucked for so long, instant gratification is a MUST!
The reality is it’s a process. Thomas, once about week 5, has been pretty good. His future looks bright. They made the right call on Gates. He’s been pretty good consistently all season. Lemieux has been very good run blocking. His pass blocking hard been terrible. He needs better strength and much better technique. Ditto with Peart. They can both play, but neither is ready to be a full time starter. This off season should help. Hernandez is a back up only. Sy’s original evaluation of him as he has lateral mobility deficiencies and he didn’t have him highly rated. He shouldn’t have been a second rd pick. Zeitler has been OK second half of the season. A good off season and this COULD be a pretty good line next year. It’s hard to be patient.
It still amazes me that people think this line will be better next year. IT WON’T.
We have basically 4 rookie players rotating in plus 1 2nd year player. A 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th draft pick. Of course the line will get better. We have young talent and it is already much better than it was at the beginning of the season. Anything takes a little time to improve, there is no switch where it automatically happens.
our entire WR is mediocre therefore noone can never get open
correct, alot of the offense (and it was seen on the cowboys as well) is : our guy vs your guy, whose better? and we all know the answer.
Theres ways that other OC's SCHEME guys open who are not the most talented in the world.
Our offense is built to get 10 yards every 3 plays. Doesn't mean our O Line is good, doesn't mean our weapons are any good, doesn't mean our QB play has been great.
They had a few games where they didn’t look atrocious, and then back to suck town.
The Giants have given up 12 sacks, 32 pressures, 8 hits, and allowed pressure on 43% of passes the last 2 games.
Maybe the young players get better. But the reason the Giants score less than Jaguars is because right now they hands down have the worst pass pro offensive line in the NFL.
Are you new as a fan of this team, new to this forum, or just slow?
2nd of all this is indeed a young and improving line, with further improvement a real possibility if an athletic stud like Peart develops into his full potential. Its too soon to tell with him one way or the other. Getting off the bus he looks an awful lot like a young Tyron Smith.
Lastly there's plenty to blame DG for if that's your base issue re the OL vet FA signings he made, but I doubt ANY of those guys are left aside from Zeitler (actually a vet trade acquisition) in 2021, and he's definitely serviceable.
If this is the best analysis you've got, I dont know what to tell you.
It's possible you are right, but your timing is way off.
What difference does it make if this isin't the FO regime that is responsible for this? Reese and Gettleman have both sucked at picking OL. I explicitly stated that in my initial post. Second, besides Thomas, who has the potential to suddenlly turn into an above average offensive lineman? You think Peart is a young Tyron Smith because he has played pretty well in 150 snaps? He was a third round pick for a reason, thats one hell of a statement to say he's the next Tyron Smith. And you mention Zeitler but your forgetting that he's almost certainly getting cut after the season for cap space which would leave you with Lemiux and Hernandez at gaurd. At that point besides Thomas, you have a line of scrubs. And if you don't believe that to be the case, then I want some of what your smoking because maybe then this team won't look as abysmally bad every time I watch it.
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First of all, this isn't the FO regime that created and was responsable for a decade plus of a declining and awful OL.
Are you new as a fan of this team, new to this forum, or just slow?
2nd of all this is indeed a young and improving line, with further improvement a real possibility if an athletic stud like Peart develops into his full potential. Its too soon to tell with him one way or the other. Getting off the bus he looks an awful lot like a young Tyron Smith.
Lastly there's plenty to blame DG for if that's your base issue re the OL vet FA signings he made, but I doubt ANY of those guys are left aside from Zeitler (actually a vet trade acquisition) in 2021, and he's definitely serviceable.
If this is the best analysis you've got, I dont know what to tell you.
It's possible you are right, but your timing is way off.
What difference does it make if this isin't the FO regime that is responsible for this? Reese and Gettleman have both sucked at picking OL. I explicitly stated that in my initial post. Second, besides Thomas, who has the potential to suddenlly turn into an above average offensive lineman? You think Peart is a young Tyron Smith because he has played pretty well in 150 snaps? He was a third round pick for a reason, thats one hell of a statement to say he's the next Tyron Smith. And you mention Zeitler but your forgetting that he's almost certainly getting cut after the season for cap space which would leave you with Lemiux and Hernandez at gaurd. At that point besides Thomas, you have a line of scrubs. And if you don't believe that to be the case, then I want some of what your smoking because maybe then this team won't look as abysmally bad every time I watch it.
Good reply albeit fairly easy pickings.
that's very close to trolling LBH
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OBJ has never been replaced, and Shepard hasn’t been as good without him, and that is when he plays, and isn’t injured...
This comment is so tired and lazy. Shepard has been solid all year. He is not a #1 receiver but he isn't expected to be. He's a slot receiver and frankly has been making huge plays all season. And the "when he plays" comment was last year, not this year. Clearly a lagging bias. Not sure what you're expecting.
They had a few games where they didn’t look atrocious, and then back to suck town.
The Giants have given up 12 sacks, 32 pressures, 8 hits, and allowed pressure on 43% of passes the last 2 games.
Maybe the young players get better. But the reason the Giants score less than Jaguars is because right now they hands down have the worst pass pro offensive line in the NFL.
Good post. Why I laugh when I read the DJ haters on other threads saying he has to have a great game against Cowboys. Given the state of our talentless offense what is the likelihood of that happening?
Assuming we get solid coaching and a good off-season & camp under our belts for 2021, I can see our starting group being as follows:
Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Zeitler-Peart with Solder at swing tackle replacing Fleming and Hernandez at OG backing up. I actually hope Peart starts and plays at least 1/2 the snaps today.
I would NOT be shocked if we drafted an OG in round 2 or if we win the division and a playoff game we may take the best OG available late round 1. Why? Because Lemiuex is strictly a serviceable OG and Zeitler is in his last year on this big contract.
I also would NOT be shocked if Zeitler, Fleming, Solder were all gone and that decision would make OL a top priority.
Bottom line: this OL is still bottom 5 in the league overall. We just give up too many pressures in a passing league. I laugh when we really put D. Jones down, especially from the AZ game where he played hurt, cause he has such limited time to throw.
Thomas I believe has been playing up to his high expectations the last few weeks. Gates has a career as an NFL center ahead of him. Lemieux needs to get better but he has pushed an OK starting guard to the bench. And Peart has shown positive signs this season although he was awful last Sunday. And I don’t think Hernandez is a lost cause either. Finally, there are signs of improvement across the whole unit. After many years.
Did Gettleman mishandle the unit? Yes. (And he deserves to be fired for it.)
Should the Giants continue to draft OL? Yes. I think a couple more mid round OL selections in the 2021 draft are needed.
I agree with the threadstarter that the state of the OL is now one of the key issues for the entire team (the other being the Jones situation) and that it needs to get better. But there are green shoots.
It doesn't have to be an either-or, there can be multiple facets of the offense that's playing badly all at the same time. And when you're a team ranked at the bottom of the league that's likely what the case is.
Only Love? That's a ridiculous oversight of Janrill Peppers Christian!