I'll start off by stating that Williams had a truly incredible season in his contract year. But even with that production, I'm not sure it's a smart business decision to give him the $15+ million per year he's going to be looking for as a FA this offseason.
Defensive Tackle, like RB, is a relatively replaceable position in today's NFL. That's especially true when it comes to stopping the run. And the Giants are in a pretty good position at DT when you look at the other players on the roster (and who can be re-signed for much less money)...Dexter Lawrence, BJ Hill, Dalvin Tomlinson and even RJ McIntosh. What makes Williams unique is that he has an ability to get after the QB from the inside while also being a very good run defender.
However, since the Giants do already have legitimate depth at DT with or without Williams next year, the big question becomes whether it makes more sense to allocate those cap dollars to a premier edge pass rusher and/or a weapon for DJ on the outside. The biggest differences b/w the franchises that have long term maintained success and the ones who have a good season here or there is their understanding of whether to allocate their cap. IMO I believe it would put this team in a much better position long term to focus on improving the DE & WR positions in FA and the continue to build the core through the draft.
2. Williams is more an end which means his responsibilities aren't just stopping the run, so he's not the limited player you make him out to be.
3. Finding 2 a way DE(can both stop the run and rush the passer) is really hard. The Giants have one. It makes little sense to let him to leave to save a few million only to start looking for a replacement that at best gives you what you already have in Williams.
Not sure where the $15M is coming from. I'd think anything north of $20M will be that mark.
That being said - he's a difference maker and would be a central part of this D for the length of the 2nd contract.
I’ve gone back and fourth quite a bit throughout the year in who I’d prefer to keep. It’s a real tough call, don’t think they will be able to keep them both, not sure if LW will be as effective without a guy like DT next to him either next year, but overall the player that LW is is harder to replace. Both these guys are young and entering their prime. I like that LW might be playing his best football right now. I think he is worth it, hope they plug DL in the middle and maybe get a guy that can play the other DE position ina. Rotation with Hill and whoever else, (Rousseau?)
If it was $15M...he would be signed.
I am someone that believes we need a premium edge rusher. The thought of adding a premium edge rusher to the line to play with Williams would be transcendent. That would be my dream. That would cause fits to any offense that we played. That would bring us to championship football.
Edge rushers:
Matthew Judon, Baltimore Ravens (no double digit sack seasons. Averages out at 7 sacks per year over his career.)
Von Miller, Denver Broncos (32 at season start coming off an injury means I'd be wary unless it's a reasonable deal which it won't be)
Haason Reddick, Arizona Cardinals (literally one good year. He has 12.5 career sacks, and all came this year. Hell of a risk)
Shaquil Barrett, Tampa Bay Buccaneers (again had one monster year in 2019 with 19.5 sacks, and 8 this year. Before that his highest was 5.5 in his rookie season)
Bud Dupree, Pittsburgh Steelers (the lateness of the ACL tear rules him out for me)
Carl Lawson, Cincinnati Bengals
Reddick has had the one good year, and I doubt he'll actually make it to FA. Barrett has had a down year. Dupree blew an ACL relatively late in the season. Miller is 32 by the start of next season. I'm not a massive fan of Lawson.
I agree with this. But the question becomes, is this team better overall long term with a premier outside pass rusher than a player who can play both inside and outside. The truth is that many of LW's sacks came from great coverage on the outside. We need a player who can be a true and quick disrupter from the snap.
I'm sorry but if that's the case then it's a definite no. He's simply not worth that kind of money and the cap is going down this year. THAT would be a huge mistake.
Williams is turning 27 in June. He played at close to an elite level this year, in a great system which finally suits him. I'm not saying pay him a ridiculous contract to the point of insanity, but pay the guy. We have a QB on a rookie contract, a ton of young players, and yes, we can afford it.
If we don't pay Leonard Williams, we will never pay anyone. Pay him.
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LW is a must sign. Their DL is a strength of the team. They stop the run and clog up the middle. LW also has a unique ability to get to the QB from his position. You keep that strength and resign him. Tomlinson, although I like him a lot, is the one who may get lost in the shuffle
I’ve gone back and fourth quite a bit throughout the year in who I’d prefer to keep. It’s a real tough call, don’t think they will be able to keep them both, not sure if LW will be as effective without a guy like DT next to him either next year, but overall the player that LW is is harder to replace. Both these guys are young and entering their prime. I like that LW might be playing his best football right now. I think he is worth it, hope they plug DL in the middle and maybe get a guy that can play the other DE position ina. Rotation with Hill and whoever else, (Rousseau?)
Ideally, I’d love to keep both. With all the cap space in 2022 and a QB on a rookie contract, it might be feasible, but I’m not getting my hopes up.
It shouldn't have come to this though.
I don't think Williams performance absolves Gettleman from a bad trade. It makes it less bad, but it's still a poor use of resources (premium draft picks and the franchise tag) to acquire an impending free agent without a plan to keep him.
When the only thing that matters is what is the upper limit of Team LW's ask and can DG still improve the rest of the roster enough going forward with the remaining dollars.
Satisfying LW puts pressure on the organization to be successful again in free agency (like 2020) and pick up their game in the draft.
But....just who exactly should we pay in that case? He's one of our best players on defense, probably #2 behind Bradberry.
I've got real questions about Dalvin T.
I was not a fan of the trade, but he was outstanding this year. He's 26, and an outstanding 2-way DL. Put him with a good ER, and he can be a real force. It will come down to money, but if DG can get him for less than $20M, he should do it.
Agreed, DT is an excellent player, but LW is a game-chaanger.
Yes, serviceable DT's, as well as many other positions, can be found for much less. But the distinction is that they are largely interchangeable place holders. Williams is a difference maker. His play can be the difference in the outcome of games.
When the only thing that matters is what is the upper limit of Team LW's ask and can DG still improve the rest of the roster enough going forward with the remaining dollars.
Satisfying LW puts pressure on the organization to be successful again in free agency (like 2020) and pick up their game in the draft.
You have it backwards. Letting LW walk increases the pressure on the FO to hit on whatever FA(s) they bring in instead and to nail his replacement in the draft.
For those who are concerned with the cost, will you be the first ones to complain in two years that we need more talent?
DG will find a way to get this done. Ending relationships with players who are underperforming vs the cost of their contracts
With Peppers and McKinney, it could be argued that Ryan was an "extra". Now his leadership and ability to play multiple positions is probably why he was resigned first.
I doubt the Giants can afford to resign Ryan, Williams and Tomlinson, so I'd guess Tomlinson walks.
This ^ exactly! That's what I'm talking about.
I'm thinking about this -- an edge rusher that requires two men, Williams requires two men - then you have Dex playing one man which give him an edge -- you have Tomlinson or the next man up taking up a man -- an offense must commit 6 or 7 men up front -- because Dex is a mismatch otherwise
that should either leave 4 or 5 men, the QB and three or four others to deal with Martinez, Crowder, Bradberry, Pep, McKinley, Ryan and a hopefully new and improved CB ---
That is a championship defense -- they only put 5 men on the line -- they pay - Bring Pep or Ryan up to terrorize the QB - how is an offense going to account for that?
That kind of group would break a lot of offenses. DId I mention -- that - that's what I want to see out there. Yeah Baby!
With Peppers and McKinney, it could be argued that Ryan was an "extra". Now his leadership and ability to play multiple positions is probably why he was resigned first.
I doubt the Giants can afford to resign Ryan, Williams and Tomlinson, so I'd guess Tomlinson walks.
They play a lot of 3 safety looks and the versatility those guys offers allows them to all be on the field together.
Tomlinson was always the least likely to be re-signed (IMO). I like him, but if anyone has a replaceable skill set its him. And playing alongside LW really elevated his game to that next level.
For those who are concerned with the cost, will you be the first ones to complain in two years that we need more talent?
DG will find a way to get this done. Ending relationships with players who are underperforming vs the cost of their contracts
Franchise at the most, but spending tons of money long term is not a good idea on a DL on a losing team.
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especially since virtually nobody here truly understands it. Just be happy that we have a guy who is a top performer. What you should be saying is we need to find a way to keep him.
For those who are concerned with the cost, will you be the first ones to complain in two years that we need more talent?
DG will find a way to get this done. Ending relationships with players who are underperforming vs the cost of their contracts
Franchise at the most, but spending tons of money long term is not a good idea on a DL on a losing team.
So spending money on DL on a winning team is good?? You don't become a winning team unless you accrue as many good players as possible. So spending on DL when the team is bad - can make them good.
$15M signing bonus.
Salaries of
$12M / $15M / $18M / $20M / $20M.
First 3 years of salary fully guaranteed, $5M of 4th year salary guaranteed.
Cap hits of $15M and $18M first two years.
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and that's why the NY Giants have to sign him.
When the only thing that matters is what is the upper limit of Team LW's ask and can DG still improve the rest of the roster enough going forward with the remaining dollars.
Satisfying LW puts pressure on the organization to be successful again in free agency (like 2020) and pick up their game in the draft.
You have it backwards. Letting LW walk increases the pressure on the FO to hit on whatever FA(s) they bring in instead and to nail his replacement in the draft.
I don't look at it that way. And stand by what I wrote.
They will not be able to just easily replace him and shouldn't try. But to take a quote out of Moneyball, they should look to "recreate him in the aggregate" with the appropriate DL combination of players. DTs are plentiful so it can be done, and probably with minimal risk. And yes, you might not get the same level of impact but if you positively impact other areas more with that same money then its a Net Win for the overall rsoter.
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In comment 15113609 EricJ said:
Not when you have more important holes to fill, and they don’t have tons of money to do it. Spending most of your money on one player isn’t worth it.
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especially since virtually nobody here truly understands it. Just be happy that we have a guy who is a top performer. What you should be saying is we need to find a way to keep him.
For those who are concerned with the cost, will you be the first ones to complain in two years that we need more talent?
DG will find a way to get this done. Ending relationships with players who are underperforming vs the cost of their contracts
Franchise at the most, but spending tons of money long term is not a good idea on a DL on a losing team.
So spending money on DL on a winning team is good?? You don't become a winning team unless you accrue as many good players as possible. So spending on DL when the team is bad - can make them good.
And he proved he can be a legit game changer this season, something this defense hasn’t had in a few years
Right now, I would be in favor of signing him long term. His season was excellent and there is no reason to think in the same system he can't replicate that production next year.
He is a must signing for many reasons. You build around guys like this, not let them go if you can. Another great move by Gettledog.
Donald's contract was 2018 at 22 million/year. It's old news. Jones and Buckner both got 4 year deals at 20 and 21 million respectively and neither of them is paying NY/NJ income tax rates.
Anyone here thinking Williams is going to sign for less than something between the above DE and DT money is dreaming. Length of contract, guarantee (somewheres between 45-55 million) and money are going to be in play, and don't be surprised if Williams gets a 5 year offer for 23 or 24 million plus from another team.
He is a must signing for many reasons. You build around guys like this, not let them go if you can. Another great move by Gettledog.
GM of the Year
Leonard Williams is a crucial player in this team's future.
CRUCIAL.
I would hate to lose Tomlinson because of a big Leonard Williams contract, but Tomlinson would be easier to replace than Williams.
And imagine if we kept Leonard Williams and secured a legitimate Edge threat lined up beside him! THAT dynamic could wreck havoc on offenses.
We should be able to clear up 20 million in cap space
Possihave enough space for a decent cb or wr (#2 type’
Frankly I think they overpaid for Ryan. Maybe not much, but still overpaid. It was more clear to see after McKinney started playing.
Lots of George Young disciples on this site . Well George Young I once said that you don’t become a good team by losing your best players . And then George Young II proceeded to do just that . But such is to digress . Sign Williams and Tomlinson , for that matter . They are both 26.
Cut bait on Engram if needed . Release Solder, Tate , Zeitler and whomever .
We can all hope signing LW draws him the same scorn $trahan did.
William$!!
$15M signing bonus.
Salaries of
$12M / $15M / $18M / $20M / $20M.
First 3 years of salary fully guaranteed, $5M of 4th year salary guaranteed.
Cap hits of $15M and $18M first two years.
AD: 13.5 sacks, 45 tackles, 14 tackles for loss, and 27 QB hits.
Giants can still use the franchise tag on him 2021, but the cost will likely be higher than $16M.
Not certain how no resigning one of the playmakers on the team, a super star, makes any sense
Williams had a good year, but was invisible during the Cards, Browns and Ravens games. The big sack he had at the end of the game Sunday he was un blocked.
I would rather spend big dollars on a legit edge rusher, if one is available.
For those who are concerned with the cost, will you be the first ones to complain in two years that we need more talent?
DG will find a way to get this done. Ending relationships with players who are underperforming vs the cost of their contracts
This!!!
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My offer would be 5 years $100M, $65M guaranteed.
$15M signing bonus.
Salaries of
$12M / $15M / $18M / $20M / $20M.
First 3 years of salary fully guaranteed, $5M of 4th year salary guaranteed.
Cap hits of $15M and $18M first two years.
Add 30 million to the signing bonus and you would probably have a deal.
No, 'hoya's in the ballpark. The full guarantee is what matters and $65M in full gtd money is on the high side if anything (Buckner got $40 fully gtd at signing).
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These guys dont grow on trees and are rarely made available in free agency.. Supremely physically gifted, helps create an identity too and a good team leader as well. he will only get better and more dominant as we add more people to bring pressure.
He is a must signing for many reasons. You build around guys like this, not let them go if you can. Another great move by Gettledog.
GM of the Year
Great offseason. Looks like he robbed the Jets again too, or is every forgetting KMac OL
Exactly.
I hope he stays healthy and plays at the same level as 2020 because the percentage of the cap that he's going to occupy has to be a major major contributor on a winning team.
Williams was exactly what this GM wanted all along, but our GM miscalculated the cost sheet, and what the very transaction of making him a Giant would do to that cost sheet at the negotiation table. And the next time they meet, it will have yet another premium added to it.
Costly mistake in judgment. Williams can still become a NY Giant for the long term but it will take a bite or two out of the improving roster somewhere.
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In comment 15113632 bigbluehoya said:
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My offer would be 5 years $100M, $65M guaranteed.
$15M signing bonus.
Salaries of
$12M / $15M / $18M / $20M / $20M.
First 3 years of salary fully guaranteed, $5M of 4th year salary guaranteed.
Cap hits of $15M and $18M first two years.
Add 30 million to the signing bonus and you would probably have a deal.
No, 'hoya's in the ballpark. The full guarantee is what matters and $65M in full gtd money is on the high side if anything (Buckner got $40 fully gtd at signing).
I am sure the Giants would do the deal Hoya proposed tomorrow; I don't think Williams' advisors would tell him to take it, and I wouldn't be surprised to see someone beat that offer.
Anyway you slice it, Mr. Williams is going to be a very rich man.
So the more prudent move is to re-apply the FT. And then let's see LW perform this well again. If so, then we revisit.
So the more prudent move is to re-apply the FT. And then let's see LW perform this well again. If so, then we revisit.
agreed, and if you want to see it again in blue, then sign him.
How do some of you come up with this shit.
How do some of you come up with this shit.
It's called looking for trends. Patterns. Evidence to suggest consistency before you commit to a long term investment.
Not sure why that's difficult to understand.
The players have no one to blame but themselves for the FT. They continue to keep it in each collective bargain agreement.
It's a great hedge for the team in the right circumstances. This situation for LW is one of those. He had a break-out year after some decent seasons with the Jets and a very mediocre year with NYG in '19. So let's see him do something similar again. And if he is able to demonstrate that, we (1) benefit from another excellent year and (2) we can revisit in a year when the cap will likely rebound.
They could guarantee 50M dollars and he would be behind only Donald in Guarantee. You get him at 27-30
You guarantee bonus and salary. Bonus of 30M (7.5M per yr). Guarantee salary 1st 2 years at 10M per.
This gives options while a young player to restructure if need be
Y1. 10+7.5
Y2 10+7.5
Y3. 16+7.5
Y4. 18+7.5