A couple tweets and some articles about him possibly asking for a trade this off-season. If he’s available, do you offer Jones and #11 for him? Texans - ( New Window )
The Giants would have to, at the very least, look into what Houston is asking for.
My best guess is that the new GM, and eventual new HC, will meet with Watson to "recruit" him to stay there.
You just don't trade away young, stud QBs like him.
so you couldn't buy any toys for Watson to throw to. You couldn't buy anyone, period.
And if I recall, the Texans had less wins than the Giants, so Watson apparently ain't 'all that'.
I'd support trading Barkley and our pick for one of the quarterbacks in this years draft if one of them was attainable and our GM wasn't defending his Jones pick.
What does that mean?? what has he won? DeShaun Watson is an excellent QB. That's why we should want him. But the knowing how to win is just a throwaway line. He actually led directly to two losses this season where he had a chance to win if he didn't turn the ball over in scoring territory.
He is a premier QB. That's the reason we should like him.
Jones, Barkley, & #11 probably starts the discussion.
Watson is one of the best QBs in the league. To show what a shitshow Houston was this year, they went 4-12 with their QB posting these numbers:
4823 yds., 70.2% completion, 8.9 YPA, 33TD, 7INT
In a lot of years that's an MVP level performance.
They won't do it, but if Houston would take Jones, Barkley, and #11 the Giants should jump at it.
Honestly I think Jones barely moves the needle for Houston. Three firsts starts the conversation. I doubt we can remove one of those first if we include Jones.
Jones, Barkley, & #11 probably starts the discussion.
Watson is one of the best QBs in the league. To show what a shitshow Houston was this year, they went 4-12 with their QB posting these numbers:
4823 yds., 70.2% completion, 8.9 YPA, 33TD, 7INT
In a lot of years that's an MVP level performance.
They won't do it, but if Houston would take Jones, Barkley, and #11 the Giants should jump at it.
Honestly I think Jones barely moves the needle for Houston. Three firsts starts the conversation. I doubt we can remove one of those first if we include Jones.
Forget about Jones. Barkley, and a #1, or walk away.
so any discussion would involve this year's first and future 1sts and 2nds. And if they're sending Watson out, they'd rightfully want a top 5 pick this year at a minimum to replace him, which we don't have.
For Jones and #11. They have a very good QB in hand to build around, why would they do that?
Will everyone forget about Jones. I don’t think anyone else would want him. Watson would be great in a Giants uniform, but would be way to much expensive.
the last time an established franchise QB was traded at 25 years old. Has it ever happened for a guy in his mid twenties?
Jay Cutler was 25 (soon to be 26) when he was traded to the Bears in 2009. My recollection is he was pretty highly regarded when he was traded.
Good call, here is what they Broncos received: Josh McDaniels traded Cutler and a fifth-round pick in 2009 to Chicago in exchange for quarterback Kyle Orton, first- and third-round picks in 2009 and a first-round pick in 2010.
feuding with the team and had some character concerns - but that's a good comparison. Broncos got a great return for a guy with those concerns....and who's not even on the same level as Watson.
If he truly becomes available (which I doubt), MANY teams would want him. One being the jets who could obviously offer the #2 pick among other assets.
To call a player a franchise QB requires more than on-field performance. A fair weather player that wants out as soon as their situation becomes more difficult is not the kind of player that I would want on my team.
Where were his objections when he signed an extension for $40m per year?
this wouldn't be a bad move. You already drafted the LT high last year, so you give up the #2 pick to eliminate the risk that whoever you pick is not the guy. You know Watson can succeed in the NFL.
You lose the benefit of the cheap QB years, but you also know the most important dilemma you face is solved. He is young enough to still build around.
The Giants can't offer Houston what it needs to find their next QB. Maybe the Jets throw in Darnold as a reclamation project/placeholder until the #2 is ready?
so you couldn't buy any toys for Watson to throw to. You couldn't buy anyone, period.
And if I recall, the Texans had less wins than the Giants, so Watson apparently ain't 'all that'.
If you include last year, the Texans are 14-18 during DJ's career, while the Giants are 11-21 over the same span.
Watson is 28-25 as a starter. Jones is 8-18. Do you think DJ is going to go 20-7 over his next 27 starts?
so you couldn't buy any toys for Watson to throw to. You couldn't buy anyone, period.
And if I recall, the Texans had less wins than the Giants, so Watson apparently ain't 'all that'.
If you include last year, the Texans are 14-18 during DJ's career, while the Giants are 11-21 over the same span.
Watson is 28-25 as a starter. Jones is 8-18. Do you think DJ is going to go 20-7 over his next 27 starts?
I guess he'll never be 'all that' either.
And in 4 years, his only playoff victory was last years fluke against Buffalo.
so you couldn't buy any toys for Watson to throw to. You couldn't buy anyone, period.
And if I recall, the Texans had less wins than the Giants, so Watson apparently ain't 'all that'.
If you include last year, the Texans are 14-18 during DJ's career, while the Giants are 11-21 over the same span.
Watson is 28-25 as a starter. Jones is 8-18. Do you think DJ is going to go 20-7 over his next 27 starts?
I guess he'll never be 'all that' either.
And in 4 years, his only playoff victory was last years fluke against Buffalo.
As opposed to Jones whose only won a fake playoff game.
jones and 2 #1 picks. Watson is young and is on the trajectory of a hall of fame Quarterback (not close to that yet), but threw for 480o yards this year with 33 touchdowns and 7 int averaging 8.9 yards per attempt.
There was a state I saw the other day that Watson has lost like 11 games this year throwing for 300 yards and 2 touchdowns something like 7 times this year and Brady had that situation happen like 4 times in his whole career.
so you couldn't buy any toys for Watson to throw to. You couldn't buy anyone, period.
And if I recall, the Texans had less wins than the Giants, so Watson apparently ain't 'all that'.
If you include last year, the Texans are 14-18 during DJ's career, while the Giants are 11-21 over the same span.
Watson is 28-25 as a starter. Jones is 8-18. Do you think DJ is going to go 20-7 over his next 27 starts?
But wow. HOU is a clusterfuck. Watt, Watson, and Hopkins, no playoffs and they may end up with all of those guys gone in the next 2 years. Fucking horrible management.
I’d trade anything that isn’t nailed down for Watson. It’ll never happen though... if you’re trading that guy, you might as well shut down the franchise.
that is widely acknowledged to hold the ball for longer than any other QB in the game to be behind an OL that is statistically one of the worst at pass blocking in the league?
There's a reason that they traded a king's ransom for Laramy Tunsil and that's because Watson holds the ball for an eternity every passing down.
that is widely acknowledged to hold the ball for longer than any other QB in the game to be behind an OL that is statistically one of the worst at pass blocking in the league?
There's a reason that they traded a king's ransom for Laramy Tunsil and that's because Watson holds the ball for an eternity every passing down.
They had to do that because they had a hissy fit and traded Duane Brown to Seattle because of his Colin Kaepernick/ownership comments.
I’m sorry. The reaction to this cannot be any variation of “Deshaun Watson isn’t that good”.
Why didn't he "put the team on his back" and have the "it factor" to elevate the team?
Everyone is quick to pin every transgression of the team on Jones but have blinders on when it comes to other teams.
You didn't see the offensive numbers that Watson put up in the 4-12 season and how that differs from Jones in 2020?
If the Giants finished 6-10 and Jones had put up those numbers, it would be almost unanimous that we have the QB of the future and needed to fix the rest of the team.
you are seriously out of your mind. Jones, Barkley, Williams, and two #1 picks? For Watson? No chance the Giants would ever do that. Jones and the picks yes. The Giants aren't good enough to be giving away their best players to get an awesome QB and then be stuck with even worse players.
RE: I'd go on record now as predicting Lawrence doesn't
if they can find a trade partner. That's the rub, you need to find a team that can give you the draft haul you'd want and afford to pay a QB top money all without a bunch of premium picks on rookie deals? Texans are fucked and exactly why you need safeguards in place to prevent what Billy Boy did there.
you are seriously out of your mind. Jones, Barkley, Williams, and two #1 picks? For Watson? No chance the Giants would ever do that. Jones and the picks yes. The Giants aren't good enough to be giving away their best players to get an awesome QB and then be stuck with even worse players.
You're right, that is aggressive. Maybe just one #1. ;)
Look, I'm just spit-balling on this...it would be a helluva opportunity to get a QB who knows how to make chicken salad. A legit force multiplier.
so you couldn't buy any toys for Watson to throw to. You couldn't buy anyone, period.
And if I recall, the Texans had less wins than the Giants, so Watson apparently ain't 'all that'.
I would do that trade. He's very good. He's not great but he's very good. He's considerably better than Daniel Jones will ever be. But the Giants would never do something this bold. It's not who they are.
Ok people here’s the reality check (some have already done so)
if this is even a remote possibility, Gettleman needs to be making phone calls to Nick Caserio.
Hell, let Judge do it since he knows him from New England.
I'd give them Jones, Barkley, LW, and two #1s.
This is a great, great player who is only 25.
LOL absolutely preposterous. Not worth half that. Oh and LW is a free agent, can't trade him.
Good catch on LW. My bad there.
I recommend you - and even others who would be dubious on this - dig further into this guy's numbers. And, again, he's only 25. He has a lifetime QBR of 70+, and outstanding career 8.3 YPA (this year he was 8.9 WITHOUT Hopkins), and he has a lifetime QB/INT ratio of 3:1. And he gets you 400+ yards rushing per year with another 5 rushing TDs.
This guys is the real deal.
RE: RE: Talented player and a better pro than I projected
The guy plays on a lousy team and is still putting up stats. I don't get people who just go back W-L records. There are 21 other players out there, 10 more on offense. Its a team game. Watson is a difference maker. I would love to see him on a good team.
RE: Watson is an outstanding QB - I've watched him a lot this season
The guy plays on a lousy team and is still putting up stats. I don't get people who just go back W-L records. There are 21 other players out there, 10 more on offense. Its a team game. Watson is a difference maker. I would love to see him on a good team.
That's a fair point, but all we hear on this board is that Jones doesn't win games. So by that standard, it is relevant to this discussion.
and your posts show what many are rightly saying: he won games int the reg season when HOU had talent, he didn't win without said talent. Pretty much like most every QB.
The guy plays on a lousy team and is still putting up stats. I don't get people who just go back W-L records. There are 21 other players out there, 10 more on offense. Its a team game. Watson is a difference maker. I would love to see him on a good team.
That's a fair point, but all we hear on this board is that Jones doesn't win games. So by that standard, it is relevant to this discussion.
Jones loses games while throwing 11 total touchdowns. That’s the difference.
RE: thanks bw and GiantsBCP for posting the records.
and your posts show what many are rightly saying: he won games int the reg season when HOU had talent, he didn't win without said talent. Pretty much like most every QB.
Well, there are multiple reasons why the Texans didn't post a winning record.
However, how do you account for Watson's production not falling off?
and your posts show what many are rightly saying: he won games int the reg season when HOU had talent, he didn't win without said talent. Pretty much like most every QB.
Well, there are multiple reasons why the Texans didn't post a winning record.
However, how do you account for Watson's production not falling off?
He's learned his craft after 4 years. the work payed off. I'll give Jones same opportunity. 2021 is a pivotal year for him. I feel pretty good about him. We'll see.
and your posts show what many are rightly saying: he won games int the reg season when HOU had talent, he didn't win without said talent. Pretty much like most every QB.
Well, there are multiple reasons why the Texans didn't post a winning record.
However, how do you account for Watson's production not falling off?
He's learned his craft after 4 years. the work payed off. I'll give Jones same opportunity. 2021 is a pivotal year for him. I feel pretty good about him. We'll see.
This would work except go look at his first and second year numbers.
Watson is an elite qb. Very elite. He’s terrific in every sense of the word.
But he makes a lot of money! Oh no!
Let’s suck forever and keep our cap space.
Watson makes his money at the most critical position. So that type of investment can be justified for all of the obvious reasons.
So I would guess those at BBI - like myself - who are skeptical about giving big dollars to non-premium positions would be more inclined to see the value of an investment like Watson.
Are willing to spend enormous draft capital for Watson, knowing how devoid of talent this Giants team still is.
As talented as Watson is he wasn’t able to elevate his own bad team
We don't have the assets to do it anyway. If I'm Houston I'm looking to get a draft pick in return that I can use to fill my new gaping hole at quarterback along with other draft picks/players. #11 isn't going to cut it and our future 1sts are worth less with Watson starting at QB.
There has been no growing pains. He hit the ground running.
The guy was brilliant at Clemson and that's conveyed to the pros.
Watson was drafted onto a team that went 9-7 and won a playoff game in the year prior to his arrival. Jones wasn't afforded with that kind of opportunity.
There has been no growing pains. He hit the ground running.
The guy was brilliant at Clemson and that's conveyed to the pros.
Watson was drafted onto a team that went 9-7 and won a playoff game in the year prior to his arrival. Jones wasn't afforded with that kind of opportunity.
You realize how unlikely it is Jones becomes as good as Watson?
RE: RE: RE: Watson has been good from the start...
There has been no growing pains. He hit the ground running.
The guy was brilliant at Clemson and that's conveyed to the pros.
Watson was drafted onto a team that went 9-7 and won a playoff game in the year prior to his arrival. Jones wasn't afforded with that kind of opportunity.
You realize how unlikely it is Jones becomes as good as Watson?
Be great if it didn’t deplete an already depleted roster even further. Although I agree Watson is an amazing talent... he’d be stuck on a really bad Giants team because of the trade... The Giants are way past stage 1 of a rebuilding phase it’s time to trade for weapons... i say trade for Julio Jones and trade up for D. Smith. It’d be cheaper and just as awesome.
Anyone that isn't KC, Baltimore, Seattle, Green Bay, Arizona, Buffalo, and maybe Cincinnati should be exploring this.
The one that may make the most sense is Jacksonville. See if they'd take the right to pick Lawrence for Watson.
Woah, don't you always advocate never giving a player a loaded second contract? Now you would give up the #1 pick for a guy on a huge contract?
He's definitely awesome but Lawrence has the goods. Who knows if he will reach Watson's level, but he has a shot.
I'm ok with paying elite players elite money. I'm also ok with opting not pay elite players elite money. I think at that point a lot depends on the situation with the rest of the organization, and is probably a case by case basis. Take Baltimore for example - Lamar Jackson is an elite player that merits elite money. I think Baltimore does well either paying him or trading him for a big haul.
The problem is when you pay non-elite players elite money. The Giants have been doing a lot of that this past decade.
There has been no growing pains. He hit the ground running.
The guy was brilliant at Clemson and that's conveyed to the pros.
Watson was drafted onto a team that went 9-7 and won a playoff game in the year prior to his arrival. Jones wasn't afforded with that kind of opportunity.
So the only difference between Watson and Jones is the teams they got drafted by?
Talent wise you see them as equals?
DG should definitely look into it. Maybe Jones, Barkley, Engram and
Haha. I wasn't questioning your post. Just unusual for an NFL player to publicly vocalize frustration not being involved in the GM hiring process. You really don't see that in the NFL.
Jones and maybe a 2nd. I love Watson. I have liked him since Clemson.
And if he wants out, then Houston is the one in a bind as they have signed him to $40 mill per for 4 more years...and the dead money hit is $67 mill.
So there is no way they can trade him. That would be about 35% of their entire Cap for 2021
Jones and maybe a 2nd. I love Watson. I have liked him since Clemson.
And if he wants out, then Houston is the one in a bind as they have signed him to $40 mill per for 4 more years...and the dead money hit is $67 mill.
So there is no way they can trade him. That would be about 35% of their entire Cap for 2021
The question is, would you trade Jones, the 11th pick & 2022 first rounder for Watson?
I think you are actually right. Barkley would likely not be part of the deal, especially off the injury; and I'm guessing Caserio understands RB value.
I could see Jones, the 11th pick and a future 2nd...maybe a 3rd.
Jones and maybe a 2nd. I love Watson. I have liked him since Clemson.
And if he wants out, then Houston is the one in a bind as they have signed him to $40 mill per for 4 more years...and the dead money hit is $67 mill.
So there is no way they can trade him. That would be about 35% of their entire Cap for 2021
Jones and a 2nd? And I'm the one smoking?
Why? Because you want to give away a 1st?
#1) They cannot move him, not with a $67 mill CAP hit, so the point is moot
#2) Since you don't like Jones, you don't consider him an asset and you have only your own opinion of his worth. We do not know what other teams think of him
#3) The Giants cannot afford Watson
#4) Jones is on a rookie contract
Now of course, is Watson better than Jones? Yes he is.
A good quarterback on a rookie contract is a great thing
I can't speak to affordability on either side as I don't know the contract breakdown, or cap space for either team.
And this is obviously an academic exercise because the Giants wouldn't trade Jones anyway. He's their boy.
OTC is your friend. Even I can look it up to see reported contracts
Your point number one, matches perfectly my point #2. You think he is a bad QB. I am undecided and I will grant you that a couple times this year I was ready to say bust(Tampa game for certain). But he had a new QB coach(new techniques) and a bad oline for 8 games plus basically zero weapons. I will give him next year(or maybe only 1/2 the year) before I call it a day.
Yes it is an academic exercise...but I do not think any QB(even Mahomes) is worth $40 mill per year.
I thought I saw the dead cap money hits of $10M+ in '23 and $5M+ in '24...?
That represents the accelerated hit Houston would incur from the signing bonus they would take cutting him in those years. If he’s traded, that is their liability.
RE: RE: A good quarterback on a rookie contract is a great thing
I can't speak to affordability on either side as I don't know the contract breakdown, or cap space for either team.
And this is obviously an academic exercise because the Giants wouldn't trade Jones anyway. He's their boy.
OTC is your friend. Even I can look it up to see reported contracts
Your point number one, matches perfectly my point #2. You think he is a bad QB. I am undecided and I will grant you that a couple times this year I was ready to say bust(Tampa game for certain). But he had a new QB coach(new techniques) and a bad oline for 8 games plus basically zero weapons. I will give him next year(or maybe only 1/2 the year) before I call it a day.
Yes it is an academic exercise...but I do not think any QB(even Mahomes) is worth $40 mill per year.
You wouldn't want the multi-billion dollar organization to pay $40M per year to Mahomes? KC makes it work and they have 5 other players who are better than any player on the NYG roster. How much is the best player at the most important position in the most profitable league worth?
NYG is undoubtedly on the verge of handing Barkley upwards of $20M per year and will soon thereafter give Daniel Dalton top 10 QB money because he has a good attitude and has improved on his league-worst turnover rate.
#1) They cannot move him, not with a $67 mill CAP hit, so the point is moot
#2) Since you don't like Jones, you don't consider him an asset and you have only your own opinion of his worth. We do not know what other teams think of him
#3) The Giants cannot afford Watson
#4) Jones is on a rookie contract
If the Texans trade Watson, they would incur a 21.6M cap hit in 2021, and they’d be off the hook completely.
Watson’s cap charge for a team trading for him in 2021 would be 10.54M, then 35M in 2022, both fully guaranteed.
#1) They cannot move him, not with a $67 mill CAP hit, so the point is moot
#2) Since you don't like Jones, you don't consider him an asset and you have only your own opinion of his worth. We do not know what other teams think of him
#3) The Giants cannot afford Watson
#4) Jones is on a rookie contract
If the Texans trade Watson, they would incur a 21.6M cap hit in 2021, and they’d be off the hook completely.
Watson’s cap charge for a team trading for him in 2021 would be 10.54M, then 35M in 2022, both fully guaranteed.
#1) They cannot move him, not with a $67 mill CAP hit, so the point is moot
#2) Since you don't like Jones, you don't consider him an asset and you have only your own opinion of his worth. We do not know what other teams think of him
#3) The Giants cannot afford Watson
#4) Jones is on a rookie contract
If the Texans trade Watson, they would incur a 21.6M cap hit in 2021, and they’d be off the hook completely.
Watson’s cap charge for a team trading for him in 2021 would be 10.54M, then 35M in 2022, both fully guaranteed.
Quite clearly on OTC it is $67 mill. OTC Houston 2021 - ( New Window )
That's for cutting him not trading him. Switch it and you'll see it's $21.6M
If the Giants acquired Watson, they would inherit a contract with only 45M guaranteed dollars. (his 21 & 22 salaries).
Particularly appealing is his 2021 cap hit, which would only be $10.5M. Slots very nicely into the truncated cap next year.
The subsequent years would be at the Giants discretion, and fully in their control with no fear of dead money if they moved on from him.
An MVP quality, peak, QB on a fair deal? That's really attractive.
If you moved on from him after 2 years, you lose not only him but the assets (first and second round picks and any players) that you traded for him.
Keep him and you'd move our prime-time window out a few years as you replenish the roster without high picks. Plus add in the $40M per year he would cost. 16-18% of your cap.
We're in the midst of a rebuilding phase. Tough to do without premium picks.
From a cost-benefit analysis perspective, I'm just not seeing it.
I think the deal breaker for the Giants is Watson's feeling that he
#1) They cannot move him, not with a $67 mill CAP hit, so the point is moot
#2) Since you don't like Jones, you don't consider him an asset and you have only your own opinion of his worth. We do not know what other teams think of him
#3) The Giants cannot afford Watson
#4) Jones is on a rookie contract
If the Texans trade Watson, they would incur a 21.6M cap hit in 2021, and they’d be off the hook completely.
Watson’s cap charge for a team trading for him in 2021 would be 10.54M, then 35M in 2022, both fully guaranteed.
Quite clearly on OTC it is $67 mill. OTC Houston 2021 - ( New Window )
That's for cutting him not trading him. Switch it and you'll see it's $21.6M
Ok Thanks, had not seen that switch. So that means he is getting huge bonuses annually in addition to his salary. Even worse for the team that trades for him.
Ok Thanks, had not seen that switch. So that means he is getting huge bonuses annually in addition to his salary. Even worse for the team that trades for him.
That’s not true. His contract has 2 guaranteed concepts:
1) signing bonus that’s been paid and is Houston’s cap responsibility
2) 20-22 salaries, of which 21 & 22 are unpaid
If Houston cut Watson, those salaries would accelerate as a cap hit.
A team acquiring Watson would inherit those guarantees, 10.5M in 21 and 35M in 22.
That is the only guaranteed money left in his contract.
Watson would count just $10.54M against the cap in 2021
but it isn't going to happen. That will be admitting they were wrong on Jones which they simply won't do unless he is getting regularly pulled from games.
Look, I hope Jones has an incredible year next year. I honestly do because it means the team can compete with a QB on a cheap deal. But his play has to be much better in 2021 than it was in 2020.
After next season they need to know what the plan is with both Barkley and Jones. Does either get a second contract? Next year is critical for this franchise. Critical.
Are people legit with this they would rather have Jones and his contract than Watson with his?
Or Jones for Watson straight up?
It's like people don't watch football unless it's the Giants.
I would pedal Jones from NY to Houston on a bicycle if the Giants could pull this off. But it’s not even worth talking about. The Giants would never consider it and even if they did, there are plenty of other teams that could destroy any offer the Giants could make. Teams like Jacksonville, Jets, Miami, etc have a billion picks
the Giants won't get Watson, but to say it is to save face or to keep from being wrong is just one of those things pulled out of an ass.
They moved on from McAdoo and Shurmur quickly. They've moved on from failed FA's quickly.
Judge looks like a guy who makes decisions based on quality of play.
There's little to indicate the Giants wouldn't make a move out of stubbornness, yet it is cited here time and again over a number of different discussions.
Ok Thanks, had not seen that switch. So that means he is getting huge bonuses annually in addition to his salary. Even worse for the team that trades for him.
That’s not true. His contract has 2 guaranteed concepts:
1) signing bonus that’s been paid and is Houston’s cap responsibility
2) 20-22 salaries, of which 21 & 22 are unpaid
If Houston cut Watson, those salaries would accelerate as a cap hit.
A team acquiring Watson would inherit those guarantees, 10.5M in 21 and 35M in 22.
That is the only guaranteed money left in his contract.
So that $10.5 and $35 add up to the difference between Dead Cap of $67 mill vs $21 mill...Hmm interesting that Houston would not be on the hook for those "guarantees."
by some on this board that the QB position is fluid, and we could get by with rookie contracts until they expire and move on...to tie up cap money on a franchise QB would seem to contradict this "theory"..
In comment 15114685 John formerly in CharlotteNC said:
Quote:
by some on this board that the QB position is fluid, and we could get by with rookie contracts until they expire and move on...to tie up cap money on a franchise QB would seem to contradict this "theory"..
the Giants won't get Watson, but to say it is to save face or to keep from being wrong is just one of those things pulled out of an ass.
They moved on from McAdoo and Shurmur quickly. They've moved on from failed FA's quickly.
Judge looks like a guy who makes decisions based on quality of play.
There's little to indicate the Giants wouldn't make a move out of stubbornness, yet it is cited here time and again over a number of different discussions.
The free agents they moved on from were who? Omameh and Martin at $5M per year? Alex Ogletree (who was a trade)? None of those were the investment a #6 overall pick was.
And they certainly won't give up on a draft pick after two years. Ereck Flowers got 3 years.
In comment 15114685 John formerly in CharlotteNC said:
Quote:
by some on this board that the QB position is fluid, and we could get by with rookie contracts until they expire and move on...to tie up cap money on a franchise QB would seem to contradict this "theory"..
Terps, isn’t a move like this completely against what you preach on a day to day basis?
Just curious because if you are advocating a trade for Watson if the price is right, you abandoned your philosophy pretty quickly.
the giants and every other ORG doesn't explore everything, you are drinking the hemlock that gets served around here daily.
Just because the Giants have been bad lately doesn't mean they aren't trying or aren't exploring everything and it doesn't mean they keep certain players or coaches simply because Mara likes them. That's a childish, stupid and sad narrative that far too many around here parrot day after day.
The Giants signed Kerry Collins when the world didn't want to touch him. The Giants have fired two straight HCs after 2 years. Not 10. 2. The Giants have drafted outside the box players time and time again, including Jones.
about Baker. It is more of a response to the idiotic take that the team is too stubborn (or proud) to admit errors when they've shown numerous times that they can and will.
I don't want to speak for Terps, but I believe his POV is to not anchor yourself to a massive contract for a mid tier QB, and to draft QBs regularly to create cheaper options.
Watson is a top echelon QB, on what would be a discounted (Houston eating the bonus), flexible, deal.
I believe a fair offer would be Jones, Peppers, and the 11th pick.
RE: Baker was a bit of an unusual situation though
to trade for Watson a true franchise QB. But the Giants won't do it.
I can't believe the Texans would trade him. They will include him in the HC hiring. EB would be a great HC in Houston.
In comment 15114685 John formerly in CharlotteNC said:
Quote:
by some on this board that the QB position is fluid, and we could get by with rookie contracts until they expire and move on...to tie up cap money on a franchise QB would seem to contradict this "theory"..
Terps, isn’t a move like this completely against what you preach on a day to day basis?
Just curious because if you are advocating a trade for Watson if the price is right, you abandoned your philosophy pretty quickly.
I posted about this above in this same thread. You can find it.
In comment 15114685 John formerly in CharlotteNC said:
Quote:
by some on this board that the QB position is fluid, and we could get by with rookie contracts until they expire and move on...to tie up cap money on a franchise QB would seem to contradict this "theory"..
Terps, isn’t a move like this completely against what you preach on a day to day basis?
Just curious because if you are advocating a trade for Watson if the price is right, you abandoned your philosophy pretty quickly.
Again - the idea the team won't move on from players is just a figment of imagination and oddly applied.
But par for the course.
You can't be serious about DeAndre Baker.
Should we add Chad Jones to list also to show when the Giants moved on quickly from a draft mistake?
Even if you don't agree with moving on from Baker, we did move on from Ereck Flowers. We also moved on from Patrick Omameh, a FA signing, after less than one season.
I really like Watson - a lot- but I'm not up for giving them as much
I'd do Jones and the 11th, for Watson and the Houston 3rd.
I think this is fair. They get a young QB that I assume they like (or they wouldn't do this) and a top pick in a draft where they have none. We get our QB plus a lower pick.
Seriously what's your previous BBI handle? I'm asking not because your dumb shit posts matter, but because you me of some other idiot and I can't remember who. It's killing me.
In comment 15114685 John formerly in CharlotteNC said:
Quote:
by some on this board that the QB position is fluid, and we could get by with rookie contracts until they expire and move on...to tie up cap money on a franchise QB would seem to contradict this "theory"..
Terps, isn’t a move like this completely against what you preach on a day to day basis?
Just curious because if you are advocating a trade for Watson if the price is right, you abandoned your philosophy pretty quickly.
I posted about this above in this same thread. You can find it.
I'm ok with paying elite players elite money. I'm also ok with opting not pay elite players elite money. I think at that point a lot depends on the situation with the rest of the organization, and is probably a case by case basis. Take Baltimore for example - Lamar Jackson is an elite player that merits elite money. I think Baltimore does well either paying him or trading him for a big haul.
The problem is when you pay non-elite players elite money. The Giants have been doing a lot of that this past decade.
We moved on from Flowers after three years. Omameh was a bottom-tier signing ($5M/per for 3 years) who was wretched. IMO, neither of those are examples of the team recognizing a mistake early on a significant investment and moving on quickly.
Solder and Tate are pretty clearly examples of large investment mistakes that are still here. Both have cap impacts exceeding $10M and I don't think anybody would call either of those signings a success.
The discussion that brought Baker up was around the Giants willingness to move on from a mistake. My suggestion was that he did not belong in that conversation because his release - like that of Chad Jones - was not based primarily on their play.
We moved on from Flowers after three years. Omameh was a bottom-tier signing ($5M/per for 3 years) who was wretched. IMO, neither of those are examples of the team recognizing a mistake early on a significant investment and moving on quickly.
Solder and Tate are pretty clearly examples of large investment mistakes that are still here. Both have cap impacts exceeding $10M and I don't think anybody would call either of those signings a success.
Omameh was an interesting case. He was terrible for us, just a bad signing. I don't think you could have anticipated just how bad. But he was signed to fill an existing hole.
Come mid-season the Giants had seen enough and by rule were able to jettison him by a certain date and get a comp pick, which they did. There's that at least.
Strangely, KC had a need for an OL this past week and signed Omameh. He started week 17 and played 100% of the O snaps. If he sticks around for another month he might see a ring.
The Dave Gettleman Fan Club in full force this morning
the giants and every other ORG doesn't explore everything, you are drinking the hemlock that gets served around here daily.
Just because the Giants have been bad lately doesn't mean they aren't trying or aren't exploring everything and it doesn't mean they keep certain players or coaches simply because Mara likes them. That's a childish, stupid and sad narrative that far too many around here parrot day after day.
The Giants signed Kerry Collins when the world didn't want to touch him. The Giants have fired two straight HCs after 2 years. Not 10. 2. The Giants have drafted outside the box players time and time again, including Jones.
Can we just stop with this stupid shit?
You mean like how they explored trading pick #2 in 2018.
the giants and every other ORG doesn't explore everything, you are drinking the hemlock that gets served around here daily.
Just because the Giants have been bad lately doesn't mean they aren't trying or aren't exploring everything and it doesn't mean they keep certain players or coaches simply because Mara likes them. That's a childish, stupid and sad narrative that far too many around here parrot day after day.
The Giants signed Kerry Collins when the world didn't want to touch him. The Giants have fired two straight HCs after 2 years. Not 10. 2. The Giants have drafted outside the box players time and time again, including Jones.
Can we just stop with this stupid shit?
You mean like how they explored trading pick #2 in 2018.
they did explore it. They didn't do it. You know that.
RE: The Dave Gettleman Fan Club in full force this morning
Where is the fucking reading comprehension?? Nobody is "giving props" for cutting people quickly.
The examples shown were to refute the idea that the team is stubborn and won't move on from players to save face, out of pride or whatever assorted happy horseshit was insinuated.
I know why you missed that distinction.
Apologies, then just refer to my post when it comes up
Mostly because his signings didn't take very long in showing how awful they were.
As are the DG Haters Association.....so I guess it is even?
Maybe you're right. But please don't be so formal and just refer to us as the objective fans.
Objective to whom? I'm sure the DG Fan Club does not see it that way nor does the DG Haters Assoc.
If you ain't a fir it, you be agin it.....The difference of course is the Fan Club is willing to see DG's mistakes while the Haters only see the mistakes.
Me I'm 52/48
RE: RE: RE: The Dave Gettleman Fan Club in full force this morning
We moved on from Flowers after three years. Omameh was a bottom-tier signing ($5M/per for 3 years) who was wretched. IMO, neither of those are examples of the team recognizing a mistake early on a significant investment and moving on quickly.
Solder and Tate are pretty clearly examples of large investment mistakes that are still here. Both have cap impacts exceeding $10M and I don't think anybody would call either of those signings a success.
Signing Solder was a huge mistake, but I think the cap hit would have been huge to cut him prior to this year.
It's been blindingly obvious for a while that a lot of you don't
Mostly because his signings didn't take very long in showing how awful they were.
As are the DG Haters Association.....so I guess it is even?
You mean the people that hate losing. Some don't care about the losing, some of us are tired of it.
Yeah, that's it. I really enjoyed it 50 years ago also. There are some similarities. Like hiring the wrong coaches or hanging on to one that exceeded his usefulness and effectiveness. They didn't have a GM then.
Like I said, when Ozzie Newsome becomes available, I'm in....
to avoid having the worst record in football over the past four seasons?
Either you are in or you are not. Get the best or do not bother changing because you will be changing again in two or three years. Remember the hue and cry for them missing on John Dorsey. How did that work out for Cleveland?
Do you want some one who may or may not be marginally better? So they can win 2 more games in 3 years after the roster is turned over again.
I am of the opinion that coaching is more important then the GM. Aside from a few players every year, most of the players are pretty equal in ability. Yes a few players slip through the cracks and are missed. A lot are overrated. Pittsburg has had 3 HCs in 50 years. Why is it that Andy Reid coached teams have been successful or Belichick for 20 years? How come Pete Carroll can cobble together winner after winner? Why has Ozzie Newsome been so effective (maybe it is the coaches he has hired on top of a great eye for talent?)
I will join you next year if they fall on their faces in 2021. For the 1st time in 10 years I think they have a HC that can coach players up and can communicate to the FO/GM what type of players he wants. I do not disagree that DG screwed up about 50% of his FAs the 1st two years. How much was it Shurmur being a bad coach or asking for the wrong players? He missed on some draft picks, but that is pretty normal.
I still keep remembering Terps wanting this lengthy postseason GM search plan where you form a committee(of course you interview to be selected to that committee) to then interview GM candidates. All I remember is that all the viable candidates would have been long hired before the review/search committee was even formed. It is not a crazy idea(rather it is a valid plan), just too time consuming. It is something that should actually be done now so that when DG goes(or needs to go) they have a plan in place to get the right guy.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The Dave Gettleman Fan Club in full force this morning
The plan is to promote Kevin Abrams, just as they promoted Ernie Accorsi when George Young retired and promoted Jerry Reese when Ernie Accorsi retired.
The plan is to promote Kevin Abrams, just as they promoted Ernie Accorsi when George Young retired and promoted Jerry Reese when Ernie Accorsi retired.
I like my plan better.
Though I proposed that before Judge became coach. The smart approach now would be to ask Judge who he wants at GM, and hire that person.
The plan is to promote Kevin Abrams, just as they promoted Ernie Accorsi when George Young retired and promoted Jerry Reese when Ernie Accorsi retired.
I like my plan better.
Though I proposed that before Judge became coach. The smart approach now would be to ask Judge who he wants at GM, and hire that person.
Do your original plan now - prepare for the future, get a list of candidates prepared and ready...
But, what happens if Judge says he likes what he and Gettleman are doing now?
DG is staying. I wanted a different outcome, I thought the results did not justify his retention. He is the guy though. I can't see spending energy continuing the debate.
You're being disingenuous if you're going to pretend otherwise. In all of these threads there are people who laud his drafting and talk about what a fantastic 2020 he had.
Well, except for winning football games, but you have to look at the big picture!
There is a big group of posters who remind us daily of that "solid"/"good"/"great" drafts DG has produced in his three years.
When you ask that group why all of that quality hasn't translated to more wins, the common answer usually isn't in writing. It's the sound of crickets.
Or, those posters resort to the same tactic we hear for Daniel Jones - excuses.
I'll say this on defense of Gettleman. He has done a fairly good job in the free agent and trade areas. If not for that work, I can't imagine how much more dismal the results would be. It's like those adds are helping offset the subpar drafting...
RE: RE: RE: I'm fairly certain the Giants have their plan already
The plan is to promote Kevin Abrams, just as they promoted Ernie Accorsi when George Young retired and promoted Jerry Reese when Ernie Accorsi retired.
I like my plan better.
Though I proposed that before Judge became coach. The smart approach now would be to ask Judge who he wants at GM, and hire that person.
Do your original plan now - prepare for the future, get a list of candidates prepared and ready...
But, what happens if Judge says he likes what he and Gettleman are doing now?
I have a hard time believing he would. After all, it was Gettleman's poor roster that Judge was taking into games on Sundays. And Judge just had to hear from the owner and GM how excited they are to bring back a QB/OC combo that accounted for 11 TD passes in an entire season. In 2020, not 1920.
Judge seems like a smart guy; I don't know why he'd think there aren't better options out there to hitch his career to.
The plan is to promote Kevin Abrams, just as they promoted Ernie Accorsi when George Young retired and promoted Jerry Reese when Ernie Accorsi retired.
Yea but wasnt Accorsi a GM before the Giants? Or at least in a more significant role than Abrams?
FWIW, I dont think I have much problem with Abrams succeeding as GM because I think he would defer to the HC on talent more often than DG or any other GM would. I honestly think the HC shpuld get the majority of the players HE wants. Not a GM.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm fairly certain the Giants have their plan already
Though I proposed that before Judge became coach. The smart approach now would be to ask Judge who he wants at GM, and hire that person.
Do your original plan now - prepare for the future, get a list of candidates prepared and ready...
But, what happens if Judge says he likes what he and Gettleman are doing now?
I have a hard time believing he would. After all, it was Gettleman's poor roster that Judge was taking into games on Sundays. And Judge just had to hear from the owner and GM how excited they are to bring back a QB/OC combo that accounted for 11 TD passes in an entire season. In 2020, not 1920.
Judge seems like a smart guy; I don't know why he'd think there aren't better options out there to hitch his career to.
Just a possibility. Again none of us know how they work together. As long as DG gets Judge the players or type of player Judge wants, why would he change it.
Now, absolutely if they butt heads, then change. Seems to me they did not butt heads or fight over players.
Problem is, you are coming from a position of disgust for DG, so you cannot believe Judge would want him to stay. I am open to either. I happen to think DG did a good job in 2020. It may be that it was Judge's input that made the difference or Judge providing clear guidance on the players that he wants.
But DG is staying, so if he screws up this year, then dump him.
John Mara's completely lost, and his standards are pathetically low.
I would argue it is our fault. Mara would be affected if we hit him in his revenue stream. Stop watching, stop buying merchandise. If his revenue is not impacted, all he has to do is keep making deposits. We will keep getting served shitty football because all of us take it like a porn star. Gimmee more...
There have been people who have said DG did a 'great job' this past off-season, has had excellent drafts, etc.
I mean he did...
If Gettleman had a great off-season the Giants would have improved by more than two games.
Not necessarily. They were really only out of four games 49ers, Ravens, Browns and Cards. And with two complete passes would have been 8-8...Team was definitely better than previous team despite record. Defense night and day. Offense, putrid - yes.
There seems to be somewhat of a consensus that it takes
3 years to fairly evaluate an NFL draft. Go look at the Giants 2018 draft and tell me that the GM responsible for that class is who you want picking your players. This isn't some young inexperienced guy who needs to grow into to the job either. This guy brags about his experience.
Jerry Reese had some brutal draft classes. None were worse than 2018. As bad sure. Worse? Nope.
After next year we can talk about the 2019 class. The jury is definitely out on that one too but it's unlikely to be the disaster that 2018 is.
There have been people who have said DG did a 'great job' this past off-season, has had excellent drafts, etc.
I mean he did...
If Gettleman had a great off-season the Giants would have improved by more than two games.
What a foolish comment. This is a 2-3 year rebuild and everyone knows that. They went 4-2 in the division (could have been 6-0 if not for Engram), every free agent signing was excellent, draft picks looked great down the stretch, the defense was great, the OL improved. Get a #1 WR, EDGE and CB and Barkey back and we will have a winning record next year easy
John Mara's completely lost, and his standards are pathetically low.
I would argue it is our fault. Mara would be affected if we hit him in his revenue stream. Stop watching, stop buying merchandise. If his revenue is not impacted, all he has to do is keep making deposits. We will keep getting served shitty football because all of us take it like a porn star. Gimmee more...
You. I agree. That’s what we should do. Because that’s all we can do. We have a singular role in how this whole thing runs and I think some have the misimpression that it’s more than that.
There have been people who have said DG did a 'great job' this past off-season, has had excellent drafts, etc.
I mean he did...
If Gettleman had a great off-season the Giants would have improved by more than two games.
Not necessarily. They were really only out of four games 49ers, Ravens, Browns and Cards. And with two complete passes would have been 8-8...Team was definitely better than previous team despite record. Defense night and day. Offense, putrid - yes.
section, I think we can play that game on the other side too. If the Skins didn't have 5 turnovers in one game or converted their 2 point conversion, we split against them. If the Bengals had Burrow or didn't fumble on their drive, maybe they win that one.
I think the Giants mostly got the record they deserved this year.
section, I think we can play that game on the other side too. If the Skins didn't have 5 turnovers in one game or converted their 2 point conversion, we split against them. If the Bengals had Burrow or didn't fumble on their drive, maybe they win that one.
I think the Giants mostly got the record they deserved this year.
Why does there need to be a come back? Point is they were in almost every game. Not that things could go this way or that. It is that they were improved, even if not yet finished and hurting at a few positions.
Remember where the Dolphins were last year and how they were this year without a QB.
It is still a 2-3 year rebuild because Dave Gettleman has done a poor job his first three years, completely agreed.
Well said.
And that's if we have some good luck...
In the next 2-3 years the Gettleman defenders are going to get a hell of a victory lap. The percentages almost guarantee it — nearly any professional GM can get it right after 5 tries.
But as you might recall, there is no such thing in the NFL as 3 year rebuild =)
RE: There seems to be somewhat of a consensus that it takes
3 years to fairly evaluate an NFL draft. Go look at the Giants 2018 draft and tell me that the GM responsible for that class is who you want picking your players. This isn't some young inexperienced guy who needs to grow into to the job either. This guy brags about his experience.
Jerry Reese had some brutal draft classes. None were worse than 2018. As bad sure. Worse? Nope.
After next year we can talk about the 2019 class. The jury is definitely out on that one too but it's unlikely to be the disaster that 2018 is.
C'mon. 2 of the top 3 picks had early season-ending injuries and the other had an illness where we have no idea what the effects were. Those are good reasons to not take the end of year 3 as the exact time to deem the draft class "brutal." After next year we can talk about the 2019 draft, but we should (hopefully) have a much better view of the 2018 draft as well.
But, that is not an indictment of Watson. I think he is an incredible talent. I wouldn't give up the capital required to get him. It's not like we are stacked and just a QB away.
But, that is not an indictment of Watson. I think he is an incredible talent. I wouldn't give up the capital required to get him. It's not like we are stacked and just a QB away.
I completely disagree with this. Watson is 25 years old. This thinking BBI has that they shouldn’t be adding good players because “they aren’t one player away” is freaking weird. You know how you get better? You add good players. Watson is not only good, he is elite. You may just be surprised just how much better having an elite QB would make this team. The defense is very close. With Watson, I don’t think this team is as far away as most on BBI do.
But, that is not an indictment of Watson. I think he is an incredible talent. I wouldn't give up the capital required to get him. It's not like we are stacked and just a QB away.
Exactly, much bigger holes to fill well before QB.
But, that is not an indictment of Watson. I think he is an incredible talent. I wouldn't give up the capital required to get him. It's not like we are stacked and just a QB away.
Exactly, much bigger holes to fill well before QB.
Valid point. Maybe if we had a better GM, we'd have fewer holes and this would be an option, but with DG, we have to still be focused on the foundation.
I'm glad you're finally starting to figure it out.
But, that is not an indictment of Watson. I think he is an incredible talent. I wouldn't give up the capital required to get him. It's not like we are stacked and just a QB away.
Exactly, much bigger holes to fill well before QB.
Hmm, let me use a phrase you might be familiar with, "Do you watch the games?"
The $35MM salary in 2022 would require a long think.
If Jones becomes what Gettleman thinks he can be, he’ll eventually get paid. In the meantime, though, the Giants have wiggle room to build a good team around him. A contract like Watson’s eliminates that room overnight. So the question becomes whether you think Watson could win with the kind of supporting cast the Giants have given Jones (or an even worse one). The Texans’ 2020 record says he can’t, but the sample is obviously small.
RE: RE: I'm fairly certain the Giants have their plan already
The plan is to promote Kevin Abrams, just as they promoted Ernie Accorsi when George Young retired and promoted Jerry Reese when Ernie Accorsi retired.
I like my plan better.
Though I proposed that before Judge became coach. The smart approach now would be to ask Judge who he wants at GM, and hire that person.
What if they already did ask Judge? Actually let me rephrase that. They most definitely did ask Judge and he apparently has no issues working with DG.
Happy Saturday. Enjoy the games.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The Dave Gettleman Fan Club in full force this morning
The Giants would have to, at the very least, look into what Houston is asking for.
My best guess is that the new GM, and eventual new HC, will meet with Watson to "recruit" him to stay there.
You just don't trade away young, stud QBs like him.
And if I recall, the Texans had less wins than the Giants, so Watson apparently ain't 'all that'.
Watson has shown plenty of game that if he breaks free we should be interested.
For Watson I would trade Barkley.
Quote:
If Houston takes that they're insane.
For Watson I would trade Barkley.
Absolutely
Lots of interesting ideas floating around here.
While he's a good qb, he is coming off of 4 win season.
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In comment 15113659 Go Terps said:
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If Houston takes that they're insane.
For Watson I would trade Barkley.
Absolutely
Start with Barkley for Watson, and some picks, and go from there. And no they don,t want DJ.
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If Houston takes that they're insane.
For Watson I would trade Barkley.
I'd support trading Barkley and our pick for one of the quarterbacks in this years draft if one of them was attainable and our GM wasn't defending his Jones pick.
Watson is one of the best QBs in the league. To show what a shitshow Houston was this year, they went 4-12 with their QB posting these numbers:
4823 yds., 70.2% completion, 8.9 YPA, 33TD, 7INT
In a lot of years that's an MVP level performance.
They won't do it, but if Houston would take Jones, Barkley, and #11 the Giants should jump at it.
Watson is one of the best QBs in the league. To show what a shitshow Houston was this year, they went 4-12 with their QB posting these numbers:
4823 yds., 70.2% completion, 8.9 YPA, 33TD, 7INT
In a lot of years that's an MVP level performance.
They won't do it, but if Houston would take Jones, Barkley, and #11 the Giants should jump at it.
Wishfully thinking.
What does that mean?? what has he won? DeShaun Watson is an excellent QB. That's why we should want him. But the knowing how to win is just a throwaway line. He actually led directly to two losses this season where he had a chance to win if he didn't turn the ball over in scoring territory.
He is a premier QB. That's the reason we should like him.
Watson is one of the best QBs in the league. To show what a shitshow Houston was this year, they went 4-12 with their QB posting these numbers:
4823 yds., 70.2% completion, 8.9 YPA, 33TD, 7INT
In a lot of years that's an MVP level performance.
They won't do it, but if Houston would take Jones, Barkley, and #11 the Giants should jump at it.
Honestly I think Jones barely moves the needle for Houston. Three firsts starts the conversation. I doubt we can remove one of those first if we include Jones.
Watson is one of the best QBs in the league. To show what a shitshow Houston was this year, they went 4-12 with their QB posting these numbers:
4823 yds., 70.2% completion, 8.9 YPA, 33TD, 7INT
In a lot of years that's an MVP level performance.
They won't do it, but if Houston would take Jones, Barkley, and #11 the Giants should jump at it.
Agreed, Watson is a top, top QB. If you can get him for that package, you do it. However, I think all this trade talk is nonsense.
Quote:
Jones, Barkley, & #11 probably starts the discussion.
Watson is one of the best QBs in the league. To show what a shitshow Houston was this year, they went 4-12 with their QB posting these numbers:
4823 yds., 70.2% completion, 8.9 YPA, 33TD, 7INT
In a lot of years that's an MVP level performance.
They won't do it, but if Houston would take Jones, Barkley, and #11 the Giants should jump at it.
Honestly I think Jones barely moves the needle for Houston. Three firsts starts the conversation. I doubt we can remove one of those first if we include Jones.
Forget about Jones. Barkley, and a #1, or walk away.
comical.
Bill Obrien is gone.... Are you guys serious? If you were Houston would you take that?
to get Deshaun Watson even with his contract will take multiple 1s and future picks. One of the best QBs in this league.
It would require at least 2 firsts, Jones, and probably two seconds and potentially some mid rounders.
I could see:
#11
2022 First
#43
2022 Second
2021 4th
2022 5th
Jones
JAY CUTLER, the last "prime" QB I can think of that was traded netted two firsts and second and a mid QB prospect in Orton
Will everyone forget about Jones. I don’t think anyone else would want him. Watson would be great in a Giants uniform, but would be way to much expensive.
Jay Cutler was 25 (soon to be 26) when he was traded to the Bears in 2009. My recollection is he was pretty highly regarded when he was traded.
YES, I trade what I have to (within reason) for Watson.
Quote:
the last time an established franchise QB was traded at 25 years old. Has it ever happened for a guy in his mid twenties?
Jay Cutler was 25 (soon to be 26) when he was traded to the Bears in 2009. My recollection is he was pretty highly regarded when he was traded.
Cutler had warts when he was traded. Watson has none. Houston is no way going to trade him.
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the last time an established franchise QB was traded at 25 years old. Has it ever happened for a guy in his mid twenties?
Jay Cutler was 25 (soon to be 26) when he was traded to the Bears in 2009. My recollection is he was pretty highly regarded when he was traded.
Good call, here is what they Broncos received: Josh McDaniels traded Cutler and a fifth-round pick in 2009 to Chicago in exchange for quarterback Kyle Orton, first- and third-round picks in 2009 and a first-round pick in 2010.
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In comment 15113743 Enzo said:
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the last time an established franchise QB was traded at 25 years old. Has it ever happened for a guy in his mid twenties?
Jay Cutler was 25 (soon to be 26) when he was traded to the Bears in 2009. My recollection is he was pretty highly regarded when he was traded.
Cutler had warts when he was traded. Watson has none. Houston is no way going to trade him.
Yeah, Watson is better than Cutler ever was, but I remember people thinking Cutler was going to be elite (my memory could be bad, though).
If he truly becomes available (which I doubt), MANY teams would want him. One being the jets who could obviously offer the #2 pick among other assets.
Where were his objections when he signed an extension for $40m per year?
You lose the benefit of the cheap QB years, but you also know the most important dilemma you face is solved. He is young enough to still build around.
The Giants can't offer Houston what it needs to find their next QB. Maybe the Jets throw in Darnold as a reclamation project/placeholder until the #2 is ready?
And if I recall, the Texans had less wins than the Giants, so Watson apparently ain't 'all that'.
If you include last year, the Texans are 14-18 during DJ's career, while the Giants are 11-21 over the same span.
Watson is 28-25 as a starter. Jones is 8-18. Do you think DJ is going to go 20-7 over his next 27 starts?
I guess he'll never be 'all that' either.
Link - ( New Window )
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so you couldn't buy any toys for Watson to throw to. You couldn't buy anyone, period.
And if I recall, the Texans had less wins than the Giants, so Watson apparently ain't 'all that'.
If you include last year, the Texans are 14-18 during DJ's career, while the Giants are 11-21 over the same span.
Watson is 28-25 as a starter. Jones is 8-18. Do you think DJ is going to go 20-7 over his next 27 starts?
I guess he'll never be 'all that' either.
And in 4 years, his only playoff victory was last years fluke against Buffalo.
He'd be crying about playing on a bad team and would want out.
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In comment 15113665 MOOPS said:
Quote:
so you couldn't buy any toys for Watson to throw to. You couldn't buy anyone, period.
And if I recall, the Texans had less wins than the Giants, so Watson apparently ain't 'all that'.
If you include last year, the Texans are 14-18 during DJ's career, while the Giants are 11-21 over the same span.
Watson is 28-25 as a starter. Jones is 8-18. Do you think DJ is going to go 20-7 over his next 27 starts?
I guess he'll never be 'all that' either.
And in 4 years, his only playoff victory was last years fluke against Buffalo.
As opposed to Jones whose only won a fake playoff game.
That article says the Giants have talent at the WR position. Should probably say something like "The Giants have WRs on their roster."
Everyone is quick to pin every transgression of the team on Jones but have blinders on when it comes to other teams.
There was a state I saw the other day that Watson has lost like 11 games this year throwing for 300 yards and 2 touchdowns something like 7 times this year and Brady had that situation happen like 4 times in his whole career.
Quote:
so you couldn't buy any toys for Watson to throw to. You couldn't buy anyone, period.
And if I recall, the Texans had less wins than the Giants, so Watson apparently ain't 'all that'.
If you include last year, the Texans are 14-18 during DJ's career, while the Giants are 11-21 over the same span.
Watson is 28-25 as a starter. Jones is 8-18. Do you think DJ is going to go 20-7 over his next 27 starts?
I guess he'll never be 'all that' either.
Okay Carnac, great seer of the future.
Gotcha.
Everyone is quick to pin every transgression of the team on Jones but have blinders on when it comes to other teams.
The Giants have more talent at WR than they do at QB.
But wow. HOU is a clusterfuck. Watt, Watson, and Hopkins, no playoffs and they may end up with all of those guys gone in the next 2 years. Fucking horrible management.
I’d trade anything that isn’t nailed down for Watson. It’ll never happen though... if you’re trading that guy, you might as well shut down the franchise.
There's a reason that they traded a king's ransom for Laramy Tunsil and that's because Watson holds the ball for an eternity every passing down.
Everyone is quick to pin every transgression of the team on Jones but have blinders on when it comes to other teams.
4900 yards, 33 tds, 7 int. What more could Watson have done?
Compare that with 11 tds.
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Why didn't he "put the team on his back" and have the "it factor" to elevate the team?
Everyone is quick to pin every transgression of the team on Jones but have blinders on when it comes to other teams.
4900 yards, 33 tds, 7 int. What more could Watson have done?
Compare that with 11 tds.
That's called stat padding and playing from behind against soft defenses when it's Jones or Eli.
There's a reason that they traded a king's ransom for Laramy Tunsil and that's because Watson holds the ball for an eternity every passing down.
They had to do that because they had a hissy fit and traded Duane Brown to Seattle because of his Colin Kaepernick/ownership comments.
I’m sorry. The reaction to this cannot be any variation of “Deshaun Watson isn’t that good”.
Everyone is quick to pin every transgression of the team on Jones but have blinders on when it comes to other teams.
You didn't see the offensive numbers that Watson put up in the 4-12 season and how that differs from Jones in 2020?
If the Giants finished 6-10 and Jones had put up those numbers, it would be almost unanimous that we have the QB of the future and needed to fix the rest of the team.
wtf are you talking about?
Their running game is dead last according to fo.com.
Their defense is ranked 30th according to fo.com.
Their running game is dead last according to fo.com.
Their defense is ranked 30th according to fo.com.
And their situation will only worsen when Watson's cap hit increases in the coming years.
100% correct.
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In comment 15113892 giantBCP said:
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Why didn't he "put the team on his back" and have the "it factor" to elevate the team?
Everyone is quick to pin every transgression of the team on Jones but have blinders on when it comes to other teams.
4900 yards, 33 tds, 7 int. What more could Watson have done?
Compare that with 11 tds.
That's called stat padding and playing from behind against soft defenses when it's Jones or Eli.
Lol, but Jones couldn't even do that in the games the Giants got blown out.
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In comment 15113892 giantBCP said:
Quote:
Why didn't he "put the team on his back" and have the "it factor" to elevate the team?
Everyone is quick to pin every transgression of the team on Jones but have blinders on when it comes to other teams.
4900 yards, 33 tds, 7 int. What more could Watson have done?
Compare that with 11 tds.
That's called stat padding and playing from behind against soft defenses when it's Jones or Eli.
His career QB rating is 104.5 and he has a 104 career touchdowns to 36 INT and he avearges 8.3 yards per attempt 4 years into his career.
He might just be really damn good.
The one that may make the most sense is Jacksonville. See if they'd take the right to pick Lawrence for Watson.
The only QB in the league Jacksonville would do that for would be Mahomes.
I don't think a front-runner like Watson has the fortitude to go there.
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Why didn't he "put the team on his back" and have the "it factor" to elevate the team?
Everyone is quick to pin every transgression of the team on Jones but have blinders on when it comes to other teams.
The Giants have more talent at WR than they do at QB.
Hell, let Judge do it since he knows him from New England.
I'd give them Jones, Barkley, LW, and two #1s.
This is a great, great player who is only 25.
The Texans might do that.
OK....i guess we will come back to this in....6 years? Jeez.
Hell, let Judge do it since he knows him from New England.
I'd give them Jones, Barkley, LW, and two #1s.
This is a great, great player who is only 25.
LOL absolutely preposterous. Not worth half that. Oh and LW is a free agent, can't trade him.
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Why didn't he "put the team on his back" and have the "it factor" to elevate the team?
Everyone is quick to pin every transgression of the team on Jones but have blinders on when it comes to other teams.
The Giants have more talent at WR than they do at QB.
What a fucking troll job.
You're right, that is aggressive. Maybe just one #1. ;)
Look, I'm just spit-balling on this...it would be a helluva opportunity to get a QB who knows how to make chicken salad. A legit force multiplier.
What color is the sun on your planet?
Why not give them Thomas, Gates and McKinney too?
What a joke.
Jones straight up for Watson. Lol. Funny man.
You guys are your cap space. It’s adorable.
And if I recall, the Texans had less wins than the Giants, so Watson apparently ain't 'all that'.
Lol... another gem.
Jones
A cheap good player or two
At least 2-3 first and second rounders including pick 11
Some mid round picks.
If the giants don’t love jones they’d be nuts not to consider this deal. Watson is the guy you move heaven and earth for. He’s awesome.
Jones
A cheap good player or two
At least 2-3 first and second rounders including pick 11
Some mid round picks.
If the giants don’t love jones they’d be nuts not to consider this deal. Watson is the guy you move heaven and earth for. He’s awesome.
It's almost as if the $160m that Watson has coming his way wan't a factor at all in your hypothetical trade scenario.
Demand $30m per season? He already signed an extension for $40m per season.
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get to Watson's level.
OK....i guess we will come back to this in....6 years? Jeez.
It doesn't take that long to know. I know that's what you're clinging to with Jones, but it doesn't take that long.
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if this is even a remote possibility, Gettleman needs to be making phone calls to Nick Caserio.
Hell, let Judge do it since he knows him from New England.
I'd give them Jones, Barkley, LW, and two #1s.
This is a great, great player who is only 25.
LOL absolutely preposterous. Not worth half that. Oh and LW is a free agent, can't trade him.
Good catch on LW. My bad there.
I recommend you - and even others who would be dubious on this - dig further into this guy's numbers. And, again, he's only 25. He has a lifetime QBR of 70+, and outstanding career 8.3 YPA (this year he was 8.9 WITHOUT Hopkins), and he has a lifetime QB/INT ratio of 3:1. And he gets you 400+ yards rushing per year with another 5 rushing TDs.
This guys is the real deal.
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but if I'm spending picks/assets on a QB who could demand $30M+ per season, I'd want a premier QB.
Demand $30m per season? He already signed an extension for $40m per season.
Even better for my point, wouldn't pay him like an elite QB. I have a toddler, no time to stay up to date on other teams, lol.
That's a fair point, but all we hear on this board is that Jones doesn't win games. So by that standard, it is relevant to this discussion.
2018 - 11-5
2019 - 10-5
2020 - 4-12
One losing season - after O'Brien started to strip the team down the prior off-season...
2014: 9-7
2015: 9-7
2016: 9-7 (also won a playoff game)
2017: 4-12
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The guy plays on a lousy team and is still putting up stats. I don't get people who just go back W-L records. There are 21 other players out there, 10 more on offense. Its a team game. Watson is a difference maker. I would love to see him on a good team.
That's a fair point, but all we hear on this board is that Jones doesn't win games. So by that standard, it is relevant to this discussion.
Jones loses games while throwing 11 total touchdowns. That’s the difference.
Well, there are multiple reasons why the Texans didn't post a winning record.
However, how do you account for Watson's production not falling off?
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In comment 15113892 giantBCP said:
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Why didn't he "put the team on his back" and have the "it factor" to elevate the team?
Everyone is quick to pin every transgression of the team on Jones but have blinders on when it comes to other teams.
4900 yards, 33 tds, 7 int. What more could Watson have done?
Compare that with 11 tds.
That's called stat padding and playing from behind against soft defenses when it's Jones or Eli.
Stop analyzing qbs.
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and your posts show what many are rightly saying: he won games int the reg season when HOU had talent, he didn't win without said talent. Pretty much like most every QB.
Well, there are multiple reasons why the Texans didn't post a winning record.
However, how do you account for Watson's production not falling off?
He's learned his craft after 4 years. the work payed off. I'll give Jones same opportunity. 2021 is a pivotal year for him. I feel pretty good about him. We'll see.
The guy was brilliant at Clemson and that's conveyed to the pros.
But he makes a lot of money! Oh no!
Let’s suck forever and keep our cap space.
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In comment 15114221 Victor in CT said:
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and your posts show what many are rightly saying: he won games int the reg season when HOU had talent, he didn't win without said talent. Pretty much like most every QB.
Well, there are multiple reasons why the Texans didn't post a winning record.
However, how do you account for Watson's production not falling off?
He's learned his craft after 4 years. the work payed off. I'll give Jones same opportunity. 2021 is a pivotal year for him. I feel pretty good about him. We'll see.
This would work except go look at his first and second year numbers.
But he makes a lot of money! Oh no!
Let’s suck forever and keep our cap space.
Watson makes his money at the most critical position. So that type of investment can be justified for all of the obvious reasons.
So I would guess those at BBI - like myself - who are skeptical about giving big dollars to non-premium positions would be more inclined to see the value of an investment like Watson.
He tore his ACL six games into his rookie season.
#1 overall in this draft is a decent starting point for a trade if they weren't in the same division.
As talented as Watson is he wasn’t able to elevate his own bad team
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The 4-12 record in 2017 was after they drafted Watson. They finished 9-7 in BOB's three seasons before drafting Watson.
He tore his ACL six games into his rookie season.
Thanks Kyle. Posters sometimes need a little help with deep dive analytics like that.
As talented as Watson is he wasn’t able to elevate his own bad team
We don't have the assets to do it anyway. If I'm Houston I'm looking to get a draft pick in return that I can use to fill my new gaping hole at quarterback along with other draft picks/players. #11 isn't going to cut it and our future 1sts are worth less with Watson starting at QB.
The guy was brilliant at Clemson and that's conveyed to the pros.
Watson was drafted onto a team that went 9-7 and won a playoff game in the year prior to his arrival. Jones wasn't afforded with that kind of opportunity.
The Giants have to at least try to make a pitch.
The one that may make the most sense is Jacksonville. See if they'd take the right to pick Lawrence for Watson.
Woah, don't you always advocate never giving a player a loaded second contract? Now you would give up the #1 pick for a guy on a huge contract?
He's definitely awesome but Lawrence has the goods. Who knows if he will reach Watson's level, but he has a shot.
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There has been no growing pains. He hit the ground running.
The guy was brilliant at Clemson and that's conveyed to the pros.
Watson was drafted onto a team that went 9-7 and won a playoff game in the year prior to his arrival. Jones wasn't afforded with that kind of opportunity.
You realize how unlikely it is Jones becomes as good as Watson?
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In comment 15114256 bw in dc said:
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There has been no growing pains. He hit the ground running.
The guy was brilliant at Clemson and that's conveyed to the pros.
Watson was drafted onto a team that went 9-7 and won a playoff game in the year prior to his arrival. Jones wasn't afforded with that kind of opportunity.
You realize how unlikely it is Jones becomes as good as Watson?
Apparently not.
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Anyone that isn't KC, Baltimore, Seattle, Green Bay, Arizona, Buffalo, and maybe Cincinnati should be exploring this.
The one that may make the most sense is Jacksonville. See if they'd take the right to pick Lawrence for Watson.
Woah, don't you always advocate never giving a player a loaded second contract? Now you would give up the #1 pick for a guy on a huge contract?
He's definitely awesome but Lawrence has the goods. Who knows if he will reach Watson's level, but he has a shot.
I'm ok with paying elite players elite money. I'm also ok with opting not pay elite players elite money. I think at that point a lot depends on the situation with the rest of the organization, and is probably a case by case basis. Take Baltimore for example - Lamar Jackson is an elite player that merits elite money. I think Baltimore does well either paying him or trading him for a big haul.
The problem is when you pay non-elite players elite money. The Giants have been doing a lot of that this past decade.
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There has been no growing pains. He hit the ground running.
The guy was brilliant at Clemson and that's conveyed to the pros.
Watson was drafted onto a team that went 9-7 and won a playoff game in the year prior to his arrival. Jones wasn't afforded with that kind of opportunity.
So the only difference between Watson and Jones is the teams they got drafted by?
Talent wise you see them as equals?
Huh. What? Has the NFL become the NBA?
Link - ( New Window )
Weren't there reports of NE (Caserio?) liking Jones pre-draft?
Watson is a *premier* QB.
What's Dave got to lose? His job on thin ice as the oldest GM in football? Let's go!
@FieldYates
Just a reminder of Deshaun Watson's 2020 stats:
4,823 passing yards (best in NFL)
33 passing TD (t-7th most)
8.9 yards per attempt (best)
70.2% completion % (3rd best)
444 rushing yards, 3 rushing TD
8 games with 2+ TD, 0 INT
He's 25 and signed through 2025.
Haha. I wasn't questioning your post. Just unusual for an NFL player to publicly vocalize frustration not being involved in the GM hiring process. You really don't see that in the NFL.
Particularly appealing is his 2021 cap hit, which would only be $10.5M. Slots very nicely into the truncated cap next year.
The subsequent years would be at the Giants discretion, and fully in their control with no fear of dead money if they moved on from him.
An MVP quality, peak, QB on a fair deal? That's really attractive.
Who does he think he is Tim Brady? Want no part of that loser. Did you ever hear Eli complain when Reese wasted the better part of his career?!
ha
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If Houston takes that they're insane.
ha
What's funny about that?
Watson is one of the best QBs in the league. To show what a shitshow Houston was this year, they went 4-12 with their QB posting these numbers:
4823 yds., 70.2% completion, 8.9 YPA, 33TD, 7INT
In a lot of years that's an MVP level performance.
They won't do it, but if Houston would take Jones, Barkley, and #11 the Giants should jump at it.
Whatever it is your smoking, please save some for the rest of us.
Particularly appealing is his 2021 cap hit, which would only be $10.5M. Slots very nicely into the truncated cap next year.
The subsequent years would be at the Giants discretion, and fully in their control with no fear of dead money if they moved on from him.
An MVP quality, peak, QB on a fair deal? That's really attractive.
I thought I saw the dead cap money hits of $10M+ in '23 and $5M+ in '24...?
2022: $40.4M
2023: $42.4M
2024: $37.4M
2025: $32.0M
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/deshaun-watson-21753/ - ( New Window )
Jones and maybe a 2nd. I love Watson. I have liked him since Clemson.
And if he wants out, then Houston is the one in a bind as they have signed him to $40 mill per for 4 more years...and the dead money hit is $67 mill.
So there is no way they can trade him. That would be about 35% of their entire Cap for 2021
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What do you think is a fair trade for Watson?
Jones and maybe a 2nd. I love Watson. I have liked him since Clemson.
And if he wants out, then Houston is the one in a bind as they have signed him to $40 mill per for 4 more years...and the dead money hit is $67 mill.
So there is no way they can trade him. That would be about 35% of their entire Cap for 2021
Jones and a 2nd? And I'm the one smoking?
Two first rounders is a lot (Jones... Don't care), but for an elite QB aged 25 I think you do it.
I think you are actually right. Barkley would likely not be part of the deal, especially off the injury; and I'm guessing Caserio understands RB value.
I could see Jones, the 11th pick and a future 2nd...maybe a 3rd.
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In comment 15114455 Go Terps said:
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What do you think is a fair trade for Watson?
Jones and maybe a 2nd. I love Watson. I have liked him since Clemson.
And if he wants out, then Houston is the one in a bind as they have signed him to $40 mill per for 4 more years...and the dead money hit is $67 mill.
So there is no way they can trade him. That would be about 35% of their entire Cap for 2021
Jones and a 2nd? And I'm the one smoking?
Why? Because you want to give away a 1st?
#1) They cannot move him, not with a $67 mill CAP hit, so the point is moot
#2) Since you don't like Jones, you don't consider him an asset and you have only your own opinion of his worth. We do not know what other teams think of him
#3) The Giants cannot afford Watson
#4) Jones is on a rookie contract
Now of course, is Watson better than Jones? Yes he is.
I can't speak to affordability on either side as I don't know the contract breakdown, or cap space for either team.
And this is obviously an academic exercise because the Giants wouldn't trade Jones anyway. He's their boy.
I can't speak to affordability on either side as I don't know the contract breakdown, or cap space for either team.
And this is obviously an academic exercise because the Giants wouldn't trade Jones anyway. He's their boy.
OTC is your friend. Even I can look it up to see reported contracts
Your point number one, matches perfectly my point #2. You think he is a bad QB. I am undecided and I will grant you that a couple times this year I was ready to say bust(Tampa game for certain). But he had a new QB coach(new techniques) and a bad oline for 8 games plus basically zero weapons. I will give him next year(or maybe only 1/2 the year) before I call it a day.
Yes it is an academic exercise...but I do not think any QB(even Mahomes) is worth $40 mill per year.
That represents the accelerated hit Houston would incur from the signing bonus they would take cutting him in those years. If he’s traded, that is their liability.
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A bad quarterback on a rookie contract isn't.
I can't speak to affordability on either side as I don't know the contract breakdown, or cap space for either team.
And this is obviously an academic exercise because the Giants wouldn't trade Jones anyway. He's their boy.
OTC is your friend. Even I can look it up to see reported contracts
Your point number one, matches perfectly my point #2. You think he is a bad QB. I am undecided and I will grant you that a couple times this year I was ready to say bust(Tampa game for certain). But he had a new QB coach(new techniques) and a bad oline for 8 games plus basically zero weapons. I will give him next year(or maybe only 1/2 the year) before I call it a day.
Yes it is an academic exercise...but I do not think any QB(even Mahomes) is worth $40 mill per year.
You wouldn't want the multi-billion dollar organization to pay $40M per year to Mahomes? KC makes it work and they have 5 other players who are better than any player on the NYG roster. How much is the best player at the most important position in the most profitable league worth?
NYG is undoubtedly on the verge of handing Barkley upwards of $20M per year and will soon thereafter give Daniel Dalton top 10 QB money because he has a good attitude and has improved on his league-worst turnover rate.
This entire thing sucks ass.
This made me laugh... literally
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The question is, would you trade Jones, the 11th pick & 2022 first rounder for Watson?
Two first rounders is a lot (Jones... Don't care), but for an elite QB aged 25 I think you do it.
You definitely do it. You check the pulse of anyone who wouldn’t.
#1) They cannot move him, not with a $67 mill CAP hit, so the point is moot
#2) Since you don't like Jones, you don't consider him an asset and you have only your own opinion of his worth. We do not know what other teams think of him
#3) The Giants cannot afford Watson
#4) Jones is on a rookie contract
If the Texans trade Watson, they would incur a 21.6M cap hit in 2021, and they’d be off the hook completely.
Watson’s cap charge for a team trading for him in 2021 would be 10.54M, then 35M in 2022, both fully guaranteed.
@Rholm22
I don’t see Deshaun Watson being traded but do fans realize what kind of season he just had?
2020:
70.2%, 4,823 pass yds, 33 TD, 7 INT 8.22 ANY/A
After BOB (12 games):
71.6%, 3,731 yds, 27 TD, 4 INT, 9.83 ANY/A
Did this w/ bad OL (49 sacks), 31st run game, limited WR/TE.
10:41 PM · Jan 7, 2021·Twitter for iPhone
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#1) They cannot move him, not with a $67 mill CAP hit, so the point is moot
#2) Since you don't like Jones, you don't consider him an asset and you have only your own opinion of his worth. We do not know what other teams think of him
#3) The Giants cannot afford Watson
#4) Jones is on a rookie contract
If the Texans trade Watson, they would incur a 21.6M cap hit in 2021, and they’d be off the hook completely.
Watson’s cap charge for a team trading for him in 2021 would be 10.54M, then 35M in 2022, both fully guaranteed.
Quite clearly on OTC it is $67 mill.
OTC Houston 2021 - ( New Window )
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In comment 15114489 section125 said:
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#1) They cannot move him, not with a $67 mill CAP hit, so the point is moot
#2) Since you don't like Jones, you don't consider him an asset and you have only your own opinion of his worth. We do not know what other teams think of him
#3) The Giants cannot afford Watson
#4) Jones is on a rookie contract
If the Texans trade Watson, they would incur a 21.6M cap hit in 2021, and they’d be off the hook completely.
Watson’s cap charge for a team trading for him in 2021 would be 10.54M, then 35M in 2022, both fully guaranteed.
Quite clearly on OTC it is $67 mill. OTC Houston 2021 - ( New Window )
That's for cutting him not trading him. Switch it and you'll see it's $21.6M
I sincerely don’t. Have Mara and Gettleman admit (not directly) that they’re wrong about Daniel Jones. Far too much pride. No way.
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Does anyone think the Giants would even consider it? I don't.
I sincerely don’t. Have Mara and Gettleman admit (not directly) that they’re wrong about Daniel Jones. Far too much pride. No way.
Especially since they weren't wrong
Particularly appealing is his 2021 cap hit, which would only be $10.5M. Slots very nicely into the truncated cap next year.
The subsequent years would be at the Giants discretion, and fully in their control with no fear of dead money if they moved on from him.
An MVP quality, peak, QB on a fair deal? That's really attractive.
If you moved on from him after 2 years, you lose not only him but the assets (first and second round picks and any players) that you traded for him.
Keep him and you'd move our prime-time window out a few years as you replenish the roster without high picks. Plus add in the $40M per year he would cost. 16-18% of your cap.
We're in the midst of a rebuilding phase. Tough to do without premium picks.
From a cost-benefit analysis perspective, I'm just not seeing it.
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In comment 15114531 christian said:
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In comment 15114489 section125 said:
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#1) They cannot move him, not with a $67 mill CAP hit, so the point is moot
#2) Since you don't like Jones, you don't consider him an asset and you have only your own opinion of his worth. We do not know what other teams think of him
#3) The Giants cannot afford Watson
#4) Jones is on a rookie contract
If the Texans trade Watson, they would incur a 21.6M cap hit in 2021, and they’d be off the hook completely.
Watson’s cap charge for a team trading for him in 2021 would be 10.54M, then 35M in 2022, both fully guaranteed.
Quite clearly on OTC it is $67 mill. OTC Houston 2021 - ( New Window )
That's for cutting him not trading him. Switch it and you'll see it's $21.6M
Ok Thanks, had not seen that switch. So that means he is getting huge bonuses annually in addition to his salary. Even worse for the team that trades for him.
That’s not true. His contract has 2 guaranteed concepts:
1) signing bonus that’s been paid and is Houston’s cap responsibility
2) 20-22 salaries, of which 21 & 22 are unpaid
If Houston cut Watson, those salaries would accelerate as a cap hit.
A team acquiring Watson would inherit those guarantees, 10.5M in 21 and 35M in 22.
That is the only guaranteed money left in his contract.
Are people legit with this they would rather have Jones and his contract than Watson with his?
Or Jones for Watson straight up?
It's like people don't watch football unless it's the Giants.
Look, I hope Jones has an incredible year next year. I honestly do because it means the team can compete with a QB on a cheap deal. But his play has to be much better in 2021 than it was in 2020.
After next season they need to know what the plan is with both Barkley and Jones. Does either get a second contract? Next year is critical for this franchise. Critical.
Are people legit with this they would rather have Jones and his contract than Watson with his?
Or Jones for Watson straight up?
It's like people don't watch football unless it's the Giants.
I would pedal Jones from NY to Houston on a bicycle if the Giants could pull this off. But it’s not even worth talking about. The Giants would never consider it and even if they did, there are plenty of other teams that could destroy any offer the Giants could make. Teams like Jacksonville, Jets, Miami, etc have a billion picks
They moved on from McAdoo and Shurmur quickly. They've moved on from failed FA's quickly.
Judge looks like a guy who makes decisions based on quality of play.
There's little to indicate the Giants wouldn't make a move out of stubbornness, yet it is cited here time and again over a number of different discussions.
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Ok Thanks, had not seen that switch. So that means he is getting huge bonuses annually in addition to his salary. Even worse for the team that trades for him.
That’s not true. His contract has 2 guaranteed concepts:
1) signing bonus that’s been paid and is Houston’s cap responsibility
2) 20-22 salaries, of which 21 & 22 are unpaid
If Houston cut Watson, those salaries would accelerate as a cap hit.
A team acquiring Watson would inherit those guarantees, 10.5M in 21 and 35M in 22.
That is the only guaranteed money left in his contract.
So that $10.5 and $35 add up to the difference between Dead Cap of $67 mill vs $21 mill...Hmm interesting that Houston would not be on the hook for those "guarantees."
Thanks for that explanation
I like that take, Fella!
They moved on from McAdoo and Shurmur quickly. They've moved on from failed FA's quickly.
Judge looks like a guy who makes decisions based on quality of play.
There's little to indicate the Giants wouldn't make a move out of stubbornness, yet it is cited here time and again over a number of different discussions.
The free agents they moved on from were who? Omameh and Martin at $5M per year? Alex Ogletree (who was a trade)? None of those were the investment a #6 overall pick was.
And they certainly won't give up on a draft pick after two years. Ereck Flowers got 3 years.
Terps, isn’t a move like this completely against what you preach on a day to day basis?
Just curious because if you are advocating a trade for Watson if the price is right, you abandoned your philosophy pretty quickly.
Not calling is stupid - and if I were a betting man (which I am) - I'm willing to bet the Giants won't even pick up the phone.
Just because the Giants have been bad lately doesn't mean they aren't trying or aren't exploring everything and it doesn't mean they keep certain players or coaches simply because Mara likes them. That's a childish, stupid and sad narrative that far too many around here parrot day after day.
The Giants signed Kerry Collins when the world didn't want to touch him. The Giants have fired two straight HCs after 2 years. Not 10. 2. The Giants have drafted outside the box players time and time again, including Jones.
Can we just stop with this stupid shit?
Deandre Baker was let go after one
Again - the idea the team won't move on from players is just a figment of imagination and oddly applied.
But par for the course.
Watson is a top echelon QB, on what would be a discounted (Houston eating the bonus), flexible, deal.
I believe a fair offer would be Jones, Peppers, and the 11th pick.
Great. It doesn't change the points we make day after day.
The Giants explore everything. They hired a HC that NO one saw coming. But yea, they won't pick up the phone because I say so.
This place creates stupid out of thin air.
Deandre Baker was let go after one
Again - the idea the team won't move on from players is just a figment of imagination and oddly applied.
But par for the course.
You can't be serious about DeAndre Baker.
Should we add Chad Jones to list also to show when the Giants moved on quickly from a draft mistake?
The issue with Gettleman hasn't been stubbornness with mistakes, it's been the volume.
And he's certainly gotten a lot of practice at it
I can't believe the Texans would trade him. They will include him in the HC hiring. EB would be a great HC in Houston.
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by some on this board that the QB position is fluid, and we could get by with rookie contracts until they expire and move on...to tie up cap money on a franchise QB would seem to contradict this "theory"..
Terps, isn’t a move like this completely against what you preach on a day to day basis?
Just curious because if you are advocating a trade for Watson if the price is right, you abandoned your philosophy pretty quickly.
I posted about this above in this same thread. You can find it.
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by some on this board that the QB position is fluid, and we could get by with rookie contracts until they expire and move on...to tie up cap money on a franchise QB would seem to contradict this "theory"..
Terps, isn’t a move like this completely against what you preach on a day to day basis?
Just curious because if you are advocating a trade for Watson if the price is right, you abandoned your philosophy pretty quickly.
That's what he does best!!!
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Eli Apple only get two years??
Deandre Baker was let go after one
Again - the idea the team won't move on from players is just a figment of imagination and oddly applied.
But par for the course.
You can't be serious about DeAndre Baker.
Should we add Chad Jones to list also to show when the Giants moved on quickly from a draft mistake?
Even if you don't agree with moving on from Baker, we did move on from Ereck Flowers. We also moved on from Patrick Omameh, a FA signing, after less than one season.
I'd do Jones and the 11th, for Watson and the Houston 3rd.
I think this is fair. They get a young QB that I assume they like (or they wouldn't do this) and a top pick in a draft where they have none. We get our QB plus a lower pick.
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In comment 15114685 John formerly in CharlotteNC said:
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by some on this board that the QB position is fluid, and we could get by with rookie contracts until they expire and move on...to tie up cap money on a franchise QB would seem to contradict this "theory"..
Terps, isn’t a move like this completely against what you preach on a day to day basis?
Just curious because if you are advocating a trade for Watson if the price is right, you abandoned your philosophy pretty quickly.
I posted about this above in this same thread. You can find it.
Good spin I suppose. Carry on.
I'm ok with paying elite players elite money. I'm also ok with opting not pay elite players elite money. I think at that point a lot depends on the situation with the rest of the organization, and is probably a case by case basis. Take Baltimore for example - Lamar Jackson is an elite player that merits elite money. I think Baltimore does well either paying him or trading him for a big haul.
The problem is when you pay non-elite players elite money. The Giants have been doing a lot of that this past decade.
Helloooooooo Nate Solder!
The old case by case basis that changes with the wind.
The old case by case basis that changes with the wind.
You've got that wrong. I said I would trade for Wilson.
You really like putting words in people's mouths.
Solder and Tate are pretty clearly examples of large investment mistakes that are still here. Both have cap impacts exceeding $10M and I don't think anybody would call either of those signings a success.
hahahahahaha
Deandre Baker was let go after one
Again - the idea the team won't move on from players is just a figment of imagination and oddly applied.
But par for the course.
E L I
Equally as bad, acquiring guys like Tate, Stewart, Ogletree well beyond their prime, and continually defending those moves.
You’re still out here defending 5-win, 4-win, and 6-win efforts. Par, indeed.
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Eli Apple only get two years??
Deandre Baker was let go after one
Again - the idea the team won't move on from players is just a figment of imagination and oddly applied.
But par for the course.
You can't be serious about DeAndre Baker.
Should we add Chad Jones to list also to show when the Giants moved on quickly from a draft mistake?
Chad Jones is actually a good comp for Baker when the criticism for drafting Baker comes about as it frequently does.
Solder and Tate are pretty clearly examples of large investment mistakes that are still here. Both have cap impacts exceeding $10M and I don't think anybody would call either of those signings a success.
Omameh was an interesting case. He was terrible for us, just a bad signing. I don't think you could have anticipated just how bad. But he was signed to fill an existing hole.
Come mid-season the Giants had seen enough and by rule were able to jettison him by a certain date and get a comp pick, which they did. There's that at least.
Strangely, KC had a need for an OL this past week and signed Omameh. He started week 17 and played 100% of the O snaps. If he sticks around for another month he might see a ring.
Mostly because his signings didn't take very long in showing how awful they were.
Just because the Giants have been bad lately doesn't mean they aren't trying or aren't exploring everything and it doesn't mean they keep certain players or coaches simply because Mara likes them. That's a childish, stupid and sad narrative that far too many around here parrot day after day.
The Giants signed Kerry Collins when the world didn't want to touch him. The Giants have fired two straight HCs after 2 years. Not 10. 2. The Giants have drafted outside the box players time and time again, including Jones.
Can we just stop with this stupid shit?
You mean like how they explored trading pick #2 in 2018.
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the giants and every other ORG doesn't explore everything, you are drinking the hemlock that gets served around here daily.
Just because the Giants have been bad lately doesn't mean they aren't trying or aren't exploring everything and it doesn't mean they keep certain players or coaches simply because Mara likes them. That's a childish, stupid and sad narrative that far too many around here parrot day after day.
The Giants signed Kerry Collins when the world didn't want to touch him. The Giants have fired two straight HCs after 2 years. Not 10. 2. The Giants have drafted outside the box players time and time again, including Jones.
Can we just stop with this stupid shit?
You mean like how they explored trading pick #2 in 2018.
they did explore it. They didn't do it. You know that.
Mostly because his signings didn't take very long in showing how awful they were.
Did you watch any games this year?
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granting pardons for his mistakes.
Mostly because his signings didn't take very long in showing how awful they were.
Did you watch any games this year?
One or two.
What does that have to do with giving props to Gettleman for cutting guys quickly after a bad evaluation process?
The examples shown were to refute the idea that the team is stubborn and won't move on from players to save face, out of pride or whatever assorted happy horseshit was insinuated.
I know why you missed that distinction.
Thx.
Mostly because his signings didn't take very long in showing how awful they were.
As are the DG Haters Association.....so I guess it is even?
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granting pardons for his mistakes.
Mostly because his signings didn't take very long in showing how awful they were.
As are the DG Haters Association.....so I guess it is even?
You mean the people that hate losing. Some don't care about the losing, some of us are tired of it.
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granting pardons for his mistakes.
Mostly because his signings didn't take very long in showing how awful they were.
As are the DG Haters Association.....so I guess it is even?
Maybe you're right. But please don't be so formal and just refer to us as the objective fans.
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In comment 15114960 LBH15 said:
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granting pardons for his mistakes.
Mostly because his signings didn't take very long in showing how awful they were.
As are the DG Haters Association.....so I guess it is even?
Maybe you're right. But please don't be so formal and just refer to us as the objective fans.
Objective to whom? I'm sure the DG Fan Club does not see it that way nor does the DG Haters Assoc.
If you ain't a fir it, you be agin it.....The difference of course is the Fan Club is willing to see DG's mistakes while the Haters only see the mistakes.
Me I'm 52/48
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In comment 15114960 LBH15 said:
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granting pardons for his mistakes.
Mostly because his signings didn't take very long in showing how awful they were.
As are the DG Haters Association.....so I guess it is even?
You mean the people that hate losing. Some don't care about the losing, some of us are tired of it.
Some don't attribute the losing to the GM. There's a difference. But you knew that didn't you.
I suppose it's possible that I'm trapped in the Matrix and the Giants really went 33-15 these last 3 years.
Solder and Tate are pretty clearly examples of large investment mistakes that are still here. Both have cap impacts exceeding $10M and I don't think anybody would call either of those signings a success.
Signing Solder was a huge mistake, but I think the cap hit would have been huge to cut him prior to this year.
This is a results business.
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In comment 15114960 LBH15 said:
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granting pardons for his mistakes.
Mostly because his signings didn't take very long in showing how awful they were.
As are the DG Haters Association.....so I guess it is even?
You mean the people that hate losing. Some don't care about the losing, some of us are tired of it.
Yeah, that's it. I really enjoyed it 50 years ago also. There are some similarities. Like hiring the wrong coaches or hanging on to one that exceeded his usefulness and effectiveness. They didn't have a GM then.
Like I said, when Ozzie Newsome becomes available, I'm in....
Either you are in or you are not. Get the best or do not bother changing because you will be changing again in two or three years. Remember the hue and cry for them missing on John Dorsey. How did that work out for Cleveland?
Do you want some one who may or may not be marginally better? So they can win 2 more games in 3 years after the roster is turned over again.
I am of the opinion that coaching is more important then the GM. Aside from a few players every year, most of the players are pretty equal in ability. Yes a few players slip through the cracks and are missed. A lot are overrated. Pittsburg has had 3 HCs in 50 years. Why is it that Andy Reid coached teams have been successful or Belichick for 20 years? How come Pete Carroll can cobble together winner after winner? Why has Ozzie Newsome been so effective (maybe it is the coaches he has hired on top of a great eye for talent?)
I will join you next year if they fall on their faces in 2021. For the 1st time in 10 years I think they have a HC that can coach players up and can communicate to the FO/GM what type of players he wants. I do not disagree that DG screwed up about 50% of his FAs the 1st two years. How much was it Shurmur being a bad coach or asking for the wrong players? He missed on some draft picks, but that is pretty normal.
I still keep remembering Terps wanting this lengthy postseason GM search plan where you form a committee(of course you interview to be selected to that committee) to then interview GM candidates. All I remember is that all the viable candidates would have been long hired before the review/search committee was even formed. It is not a crazy idea(rather it is a valid plan), just too time consuming. It is something that should actually be done now so that when DG goes(or needs to go) they have a plan in place to get the right guy.
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In comment 15115147 section125 said:
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In comment 15114960 LBH15 said:
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granting pardons for his mistakes.
Mostly because his signings didn't take very long in showing how awful they were.
As are the DG Haters Association.....so I guess it is even?
You mean the people that hate losing. Some don't care about the losing, some of us are tired of it.
Some don't attribute the losing to the GM. There's a difference. But you knew that didn't you.
I have heard on before some guy that losses are not indicative of the GM.
Why do you attribute them to djm?
Where is the praise of the guy? Just because people think the extreme raging against Gettleman is obscene doesn't mean there is praise.
It is disdain for the posters who hammer daily that Gettleman is the worst thing ever to happen to the team.
Is that really hard to see?
I like my plan better.
Though I proposed that before Judge became coach. The smart approach now would be to ask Judge who he wants at GM, and hire that person.
Where is the praise of the guy? Just because people think the extreme raging against Gettleman is obscene doesn't mean there is praise.
It is disdain for the posters who hammer daily that Gettleman is the worst thing ever to happen to the team.
Is that really hard to see?
I'm not sure of the distribution of pro and co, but there is a fair amount of praise for Gettleman on this board daily.
Not quite sure how you miss those, really...
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The plan is to promote Kevin Abrams, just as they promoted Ernie Accorsi when George Young retired and promoted Jerry Reese when Ernie Accorsi retired.
I like my plan better.
Though I proposed that before Judge became coach. The smart approach now would be to ask Judge who he wants at GM, and hire that person.
Do your original plan now - prepare for the future, get a list of candidates prepared and ready...
But, what happens if Judge says he likes what he and Gettleman are doing now?
Well, except for winning football games, but you have to look at the big picture!
There is a big group of posters who remind us daily of that "solid"/"good"/"great" drafts DG has produced in his three years.
When you ask that group why all of that quality hasn't translated to more wins, the common answer usually isn't in writing. It's the sound of crickets.
Or, those posters resort to the same tactic we hear for Daniel Jones - excuses.
I'll say this on defense of Gettleman. He has done a fairly good job in the free agent and trade areas. If not for that work, I can't imagine how much more dismal the results would be. It's like those adds are helping offset the subpar drafting...
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In comment 15115248 Greg from LI said:
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The plan is to promote Kevin Abrams, just as they promoted Ernie Accorsi when George Young retired and promoted Jerry Reese when Ernie Accorsi retired.
I like my plan better.
Though I proposed that before Judge became coach. The smart approach now would be to ask Judge who he wants at GM, and hire that person.
Do your original plan now - prepare for the future, get a list of candidates prepared and ready...
But, what happens if Judge says he likes what he and Gettleman are doing now?
I have a hard time believing he would. After all, it was Gettleman's poor roster that Judge was taking into games on Sundays. And Judge just had to hear from the owner and GM how excited they are to bring back a QB/OC combo that accounted for 11 TD passes in an entire season. In 2020, not 1920.
Judge seems like a smart guy; I don't know why he'd think there aren't better options out there to hitch his career to.
Where is the praise of the guy? Just because people think the extreme raging against Gettleman is obscene doesn't mean there is praise.
It is disdain for the posters who hammer daily that Gettleman is the worst thing ever to happen to the team.
Is that really hard to see?
We're tired of losing. Gettleman's presence here correlates to losing. I just wish ownership were as tired of losing as we are.
That is a LONG time.
Yea but wasnt Accorsi a GM before the Giants? Or at least in a more significant role than Abrams?
FWIW, I dont think I have much problem with Abrams succeeding as GM because I think he would defer to the HC on talent more often than DG or any other GM would. I honestly think the HC shpuld get the majority of the players HE wants. Not a GM.
I like my plan better.
Though I proposed that before Judge became coach. The smart approach now would be to ask Judge who he wants at GM, and hire that person.
Do your original plan now - prepare for the future, get a list of candidates prepared and ready...
But, what happens if Judge says he likes what he and Gettleman are doing now?
I have a hard time believing he would. After all, it was Gettleman's poor roster that Judge was taking into games on Sundays. And Judge just had to hear from the owner and GM how excited they are to bring back a QB/OC combo that accounted for 11 TD passes in an entire season. In 2020, not 1920.
Judge seems like a smart guy; I don't know why he'd think there aren't better options out there to hitch his career to.
Just a possibility. Again none of us know how they work together. As long as DG gets Judge the players or type of player Judge wants, why would he change it.
Now, absolutely if they butt heads, then change. Seems to me they did not butt heads or fight over players.
Problem is, you are coming from a position of disgust for DG, so you cannot believe Judge would want him to stay. I am open to either. I happen to think DG did a good job in 2020. It may be that it was Judge's input that made the difference or Judge providing clear guidance on the players that he wants.
But DG is staying, so if he screws up this year, then dump him.
I mean he did...
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There have been people who have said DG did a 'great job' this past off-season, has had excellent drafts, etc.
I mean he did...
If Gettleman had a great off-season the Giants would have improved by more than two games.
Where is the praise of the guy? Just because people think the extreme raging against Gettleman is obscene doesn't mean there is praise.
It is disdain for the posters who hammer daily that Gettleman is the worst thing ever to happen to the team.
Is that really hard to see?
Seem to recall a few threads regarding GM of the Year and Do We Owe Gettleman An Apology that captured the sentiment when the team i think was 4-7.
Or were those too hard to see?
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There have been people who have said DG did a 'great job' this past off-season, has had excellent drafts, etc.
I mean he did...
If Gettleman did "great", how would you describe the work Chris Grier did?
Mara should be signing checks, sipping Irish in the box, and watching grand kids - only
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In comment 15115292 BrettNYG10 said:
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There have been people who have said DG did a 'great job' this past off-season, has had excellent drafts, etc.
I mean he did...
If Gettleman had a great off-season the Giants would have improved by more than two games.
Not necessarily. They were really only out of four games 49ers, Ravens, Browns and Cards. And with two complete passes would have been 8-8...Team was definitely better than previous team despite record. Defense night and day. Offense, putrid - yes.
Jerry Reese had some brutal draft classes. None were worse than 2018. As bad sure. Worse? Nope.
After next year we can talk about the 2019 class. The jury is definitely out on that one too but it's unlikely to be the disaster that 2018 is.
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In comment 15115292 BrettNYG10 said:
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There have been people who have said DG did a 'great job' this past off-season, has had excellent drafts, etc.
I mean he did...
If Gettleman had a great off-season the Giants would have improved by more than two games.
What a foolish comment. This is a 2-3 year rebuild and everyone knows that. They went 4-2 in the division (could have been 6-0 if not for Engram), every free agent signing was excellent, draft picks looked great down the stretch, the defense was great, the OL improved. Get a #1 WR, EDGE and CB and Barkey back and we will have a winning record next year easy
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John Mara's completely lost, and his standards are pathetically low.
I would argue it is our fault. Mara would be affected if we hit him in his revenue stream. Stop watching, stop buying merchandise. If his revenue is not impacted, all he has to do is keep making deposits. We will keep getting served shitty football because all of us take it like a porn star. Gimmee more...
You. I agree. That’s what we should do. Because that’s all we can do. We have a singular role in how this whole thing runs and I think some have the misimpression that it’s more than that.
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In comment 15115317 Saquads26 said:
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In comment 15115292 BrettNYG10 said:
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There have been people who have said DG did a 'great job' this past off-season, has had excellent drafts, etc.
I mean he did...
If Gettleman had a great off-season the Giants would have improved by more than two games.
Not necessarily. They were really only out of four games 49ers, Ravens, Browns and Cards. And with two complete passes would have been 8-8...Team was definitely better than previous team despite record. Defense night and day. Offense, putrid - yes.
section, I think we can play that game on the other side too. If the Skins didn't have 5 turnovers in one game or converted their 2 point conversion, we split against them. If the Bengals had Burrow or didn't fumble on their drive, maybe they win that one.
I think the Giants mostly got the record they deserved this year.
section, I think we can play that game on the other side too. If the Skins didn't have 5 turnovers in one game or converted their 2 point conversion, we split against them. If the Bengals had Burrow or didn't fumble on their drive, maybe they win that one.
I think the Giants mostly got the record they deserved this year.
Why does there need to be a come back? Point is they were in almost every game. Not that things could go this way or that. It is that they were improved, even if not yet finished and hurting at a few positions.
Remember where the Dolphins were last year and how they were this year without a QB.
Well said.
And that's if we have some good luck...
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It is still a 2-3 year rebuild because Dave Gettleman has done a poor job his first three years, completely agreed.
Well said.
And that's if we have some good luck...
In the next 2-3 years the Gettleman defenders are going to get a hell of a victory lap. The percentages almost guarantee it — nearly any professional GM can get it right after 5 tries.
But as you might recall, there is no such thing in the NFL as 3 year rebuild =)
Jerry Reese had some brutal draft classes. None were worse than 2018. As bad sure. Worse? Nope.
After next year we can talk about the 2019 class. The jury is definitely out on that one too but it's unlikely to be the disaster that 2018 is.
C'mon. 2 of the top 3 picks had early season-ending injuries and the other had an illness where we have no idea what the effects were. Those are good reasons to not take the end of year 3 as the exact time to deem the draft class "brutal." After next year we can talk about the 2019 draft, but we should (hopefully) have a much better view of the 2018 draft as well.
I can hear it now...DG’s vision was spot on. Just needed sufficient time to effectuate.
Let me help you here.
Go to Google. Type in the bar" "Deshaun Watson stats"
Wait...
Click on "Deshaun Watson / Pro-football Reference.com"
There is more than enough content to get you completely up to speed.
You're welcome.
I completely disagree with this. Watson is 25 years old. This thinking BBI has that they shouldn’t be adding good players because “they aren’t one player away” is freaking weird. You know how you get better? You add good players. Watson is not only good, he is elite. You may just be surprised just how much better having an elite QB would make this team. The defense is very close. With Watson, I don’t think this team is as far away as most on BBI do.
Exactly, much bigger holes to fill well before QB.
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But, that is not an indictment of Watson. I think he is an incredible talent. I wouldn't give up the capital required to get him. It's not like we are stacked and just a QB away.
Exactly, much bigger holes to fill well before QB.
Valid point. Maybe if we had a better GM, we'd have fewer holes and this would be an option, but with DG, we have to still be focused on the foundation.
I'm glad you're finally starting to figure it out.
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But, that is not an indictment of Watson. I think he is an incredible talent. I wouldn't give up the capital required to get him. It's not like we are stacked and just a QB away.
Exactly, much bigger holes to fill well before QB.
Hmm, let me use a phrase you might be familiar with, "Do you watch the games?"
If Jones becomes what Gettleman thinks he can be, he’ll eventually get paid. In the meantime, though, the Giants have wiggle room to build a good team around him. A contract like Watson’s eliminates that room overnight. So the question becomes whether you think Watson could win with the kind of supporting cast the Giants have given Jones (or an even worse one). The Texans’ 2020 record says he can’t, but the sample is obviously small.
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The plan is to promote Kevin Abrams, just as they promoted Ernie Accorsi when George Young retired and promoted Jerry Reese when Ernie Accorsi retired.
I like my plan better.
Though I proposed that before Judge became coach. The smart approach now would be to ask Judge who he wants at GM, and hire that person.
What if they already did ask Judge? Actually let me rephrase that. They most definitely did ask Judge and he apparently has no issues working with DG.
Happy Saturday. Enjoy the games.
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In comment 15115156 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15115147 section125 said:
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In comment 15114960 LBH15 said:
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granting pardons for his mistakes.
Mostly because his signings didn't take very long in showing how awful they were.
As are the DG Haters Association.....so I guess it is even?
You mean the people that hate losing. Some don't care about the losing, some of us are tired of it.
Some don't attribute the losing to the GM. There's a difference. But you knew that didn't you.
I have heard on before some guy that losses are not indicative of the GM.
Why do you attribute them to djm?
We’ve been over this 100 times. I’m bowing out.