Eli already had a SB win under his belt and he still was taking it on the chin by many here. So much so that there were calls to move on from him in the linked thread.
The biggest laugh I got was this:
This thread should be archived
Chicken Teriyaki Boy : 11/3/2009 11:29 am : link
so we have something to remember the Anti-Eli Brigade by when they fade back into the woodwork after the next Super Bowl victory. |
Dead on. Only for them to return in droves in 2015 and beyond.
QBR and Winning and Eli - (
New Window )
And with the certainty shown by many that Eli wasn't going to continue his good play - he went out and won another SB MVP.
Some people just didn't like Eli.
And with the certainty shown by many that Eli wasn't going to continue his good play - he went out and won another SB MVP.
Sometimes fans on BBI are right, and sometimes they are wrong.
God damnit Terps.. you just had to start didn't you? lol
Oh but using Mahomes does?
Mahomes who is surrounded maybe the greatest collection of offensive talent since the 99 Rams and the best play caller since Bill Walsh?
Got it.
Using him as a comp for Daniel Jones is a mistake.q
I think the exercise here is to point out how fucking dumb it is to call Jones a bust or act like what he is now is all he'll ever be.
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Oh but using Mahomes does?
Mahomes who is surrounded maybe the greatest collection of offensive talent since the 99 Rams and the best play caller since Bill Walsh?
Got it.
Mahomes is a contemporary playing the same sport. Eli is not; and even if he were his career is not a model to follow...his career was about a few incredible moments that are impossible to reproduce, not consistent performance.
I think the exercise here is to point out how fucking dumb it is to call Jones a bust or act like what he is now is all he'll ever be.
It's even dumber to say he's going to be good when he hasn't been yet.
Two years in and the rosiest scenario is that we don't know what Jones is. Great.
Tds: 4th in the league
Yards: 5th
Offensive rank: 422 points/3rd
Second year Jones:
Tds: 29th
Yards: 19th
Offensive rank: 280 points/31st
Eli, highly regarded NFL prospect with a great arm, highly rated by most draft analysts. Daniels Jones, most draft analysts had a second round or lower grade.
Take from this what you will, but there second seasons are not comparable at all.
Tds: 4th in the league
Yards: 5th
Offensive rank: 422 points/3rd
Second year Jones:
Tds: 29th
Yards: 19th
Offensive rank: 280 points/31st
Eli, highly regarded NFL prospect with a great arm, highly rated by most draft analysts. Daniels Jones, most draft analysts had a second round or lower grade.
Take from this what you will, but there second seasons are not comparable at all.
Funny no mention of the weapons and OL Eli had around him, vastly superior to anything DJ has had in his young career.
Using him as a comp for Daniel Jones is a mistake.q
I agree with your first paragraph here. I would get so frustrated at times with Eli, but then he had those comebacks. I don't think I can remember a player in Giants history who was cooler under pressure so consistently. He definitely had his warts, but his demeanor and team attitude endear ME to him.
Not sure FMiC is comparing Eli to DJ here. Think he's just making the observation that people are willing to write a player off quickly and multiple times. Has HBart left the building? As a fan it must be tough to have a seeming hatred for a player on your team who is widely admired and, while remaining inconsistent, proves you wrong with another Championship. I say that without a bit of sarcasm or meanness intended.
What does this show? People who get down on a QB are always wrong about the QB? That all QBs struggle and are doubted but all turn out ok? Eli and Jones will have identical careers so Eli's same trajectory will be repeated and fans should realize that and be patient?
Just a strange thread.
What does this show? People who get down on a QB are always wrong about the QB? That all QBs struggle and are doubted but all turn out ok? Eli and Jones will have identical careers so Eli's same trajectory will be repeated and fans should realize that and be patient?
Just a strange thread.
Yeah I guess it is out of the blue, but its a slow news day ;)
And with the certainty shown by many that Eli wasn't going to continue his good play - he went out and won another SB MVP.
I mean....he DID have a lot of clunker games. It's silly homerism to pretend he didn't. You can acknowledge how good he was at his best while still admitting how bad he was at his worst.
I think they can get a top WR for him in the upcoming draft, which I think will make a big difference. He did show much better ball security over his last 6 starts.
But yeah, thanks for the memories .... Yankees.
made for an enjoyable skim
Jones 39th start vs Eli's 39th start: How Steve Smith made Eli the better player, and not the other way around.
Or is it through Eli's own merits? You do the math, dickbag.
FMiC is completely tethered to Gettleman. He trusts his decision making implicitly. If Gettleman says jump, FMiC says how high.
So if Gettleman believes in Jones, FMiC believes in Jones. And any criticism of Jones, despite how rational and measured it is, FMiC can't tolerate it. Which leads to inane threads like this...
That loss to Carolina near the end of the season was as bad a loss as I can remember. Just a total humiliation on every level. It was the last game in Giants Stadium, too, so there were tons of Giants legends in the house.
However, beating bad teams? Isn't that what you're supposed to do?
What pissed me off about that year too is Donovan McNabb threw all over them at Giants Stadium and then Dallas shut the Eagles out a week or two later. Shows you how terrible that Giants defense was under what's his face.
FMiC is completely tethered to Gettleman. He trusts his decision making implicitly. If Gettleman says jump, FMiC says how high.
So if Gettleman believes in Jones, FMiC believes in Jones. And any criticism of Jones, despite how rational and measured it is, FMiC can't tolerate it. Which leads to inane threads like this...
Interesting that a parallel to Gettleman is drawn here. Who mentioned Gettleman?
Chris nailed it above. The thread was to show that people saying we know what we know about B's hasn't been a very good barometer. Hell, I heard several times in the past week that all Jones has to do is play better and all this talk goes away.
But does it?? eli had a SB MVP and the talk continued. Eli had a 2nd SB MVP and the talk continued.
I think the talk continued for Eli because there was a portion of the board that didn't like the way he was drafted. Hits the nail right on the head for bw - a supposed fan who never fully appreciated Eli because of holding draft day against him and Archie. Sad, yet true.
Things are holding serve for Jones too. Some posters will always hold it against him that he was picked 6th. Plain and simply.
Dave in DC : 11/4/2009 8:52 am : link
You, Britt, actually believe people stopped posting on BBI because they were somehow upset that Eli led us to a SB win?
You believe that, right? That's your position?
Why yes - and one of them was bw!!
FMiC is completely tethered to Gettleman. He trusts his decision making implicitly. If Gettleman says jump, FMiC says how high.
So if Gettleman believes in Jones, FMiC believes in Jones. And any criticism of Jones, despite how rational and measured it is, FMiC can't tolerate it. Which leads to inane threads like this...
The odd part is that right before the draft FMiC was a fan in the stands watching Jones play and posted his take on Jones as a prospect. I seem to recall him questioning Jones's arm strength and overall ability.
And then the Giants drafted Jones and those pre-draft opinions were never referred to again.
That being said, the highest of highs didn't come until year 7!
Let's say that Daniel Jones becomes a really good NFL quarterback. Let's just start there. We probably won't be seeing his peak until 2023 or 2024. I mean...in reality, it could be that long.
I really could just ask the question as to what all the big Jones is to supporters thought of Darnold last season and how they viewed his future?
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HBart was a great poster. I used to really enjoy kicking it around with him back in the day. Very bright guy.
FMiC is completely tethered to Gettleman. He trusts his decision making implicitly. If Gettleman says jump, FMiC says how high.
So if Gettleman believes in Jones, FMiC believes in Jones. And any criticism of Jones, despite how rational and measured it is, FMiC can't tolerate it. Which leads to inane threads like this...
The odd part is that right before the draft FMiC was a fan in the stands watching Jones play and posted his take on Jones as a prospect. I seem to recall him questioning Jones's arm strength and overall ability.
And then the Giants drafted Jones and those pre-draft opinions were never referred to again.
Very interesting point indeed. In fact, I brought this to FMiC's attention a few weeks ago making the same subtle point.
He glossed over it by saying this was something he and I actually agreed on before the draft...
NFL quarterback? Sure. Starter? Eh, maybe. Top QB? Not seeing it.
And, again, Eli's career path was nearly unique. Expecting something similar for Jones seems less than wise.
Fans will have to just get used to the fact that the MAJORITY of NFL QBs who end up being really good...it takes a number of years to reach peak performance. Now....that doesn't mean that they have to be bad early on. But there are going to be ups and downs.
Big Ben had his first really good season in year 4. He really struggled the first 3 seasons.
If yes, fine. Continue with him.
If no, then what are we doing?
If yes, fine. Continue with him.
If no, then what are we doing?
Terps, the problem with that question is that VERY FEW QB's display that they can be one of the best quarterbacks in the league through their first 2 seasons. That's the point I'm trying to make here. And also...what is the definition of "enough?" I think Jones has shown enough, much like a lot of people. Some don't think he has. This isn't a black and white thing. He's going into his 3rd season.
It doesn't have anything to do with skill or talent. It has everything to do with the fact that they are adjusting to the NFL game and usually are on a bad team if they get picked really high.
If yes, fine. Continue with him.
If no, then what are we doing?
Let's start a little smaller...Has he shown you enough he's even the best QB in our division?
Eli is retired, we did this. I like some of things DG has done and dislike others. I am not expert enough and lack the information DG had when making decisions.(I don't have access to internal scouting) to claim with certainty I know best. What I can judge them on are results. I wanted more growth from Jones in his second year, he clearly regressed. I can get behind year 3 for Jones but he needs to be better or we should move on.
In a nutshell the people that are ready to move on from DG and Jones are reasonable. So are the people that want another year for both. There is room for both opinions. Neither is stupid. Sometimes we all say stupid things when angry.
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"Has he shown enough to make us think he can be one of the best quarterbacks in the league?"
If yes, fine. Continue with him.
If no, then what are we doing?
Terps, the problem with that question is that VERY FEW QB's display that they can be one of the best quarterbacks in the league through their first 2 seasons. That's the point I'm trying to make here. And also...what is the definition of "enough?" I think Jones has shown enough, much like a lot of people. Some don't think he has. This isn't a black and white thing. He's going into his 3rd season.
There have been many QBs that were this bad in their first two years that became one of the best in the league? Can you name anyone recent?
Eli is retired, we did this. I like some of things DG has done and dislike others. I am not expert enough and lack the information DG had when making decisions.(I don't have access to internal scouting) to claim with certainty I know best. What I can judge them on are results. I wanted more growth from Jones in his second year, he clearly regressed. I can get behind year 3 for Jones but he needs to be better or we should move on.
In a nutshell the people that are ready to move on from DG and Jones are reasonable. So are the people that want another year for both. There is room for both opinions. Neither is stupid. Sometimes we all say stupid things when angry.
Great post. Unfortunately it will be lost on most.
Get ready to lose it. There are people on this board that have clearly never watched him play or even google any of this stats. All they associate him with is "he was horrible for two years and everyone thought he was a bust, then it all changed in year 3."
Most of those folks, like with the Eli comparisons, then just assume that is the path every NFL QB takes.
I was a huge fan of Eli's from the day he was drafted. He was clutch as hell. Tough as hell and won 2 Super Bowls. He was also inconsistent and sometimes down right bad in the regular season and early in his career in the playoffs. Someone on the linked thread said he was a top 10 QB but closer to 10 than 1 and I agree with that. Except 2011 which was his career year when he took a mediocre team and won the Super Bowl with them. That year he was closer to 1 and an MVP type player.
Here's the deal. This isn't news. The QB on almost every team is polarizing. He's going to be loved by some of the fan base no matter what and blamed by some of the fan base no matter what when things go wrong. It comes with the territory and the 100 million dollar contracts. The QBs know what they're signing up for.
To his credit Eli was always the same in public even tempered. If the noise bothered him at all he never showed it. Daniel Jones seems to have that quality too. It will serve him well while he's in NY whether that's next year or the next 10 years.
To answer your question - Baker Mayfield, Josh Allen. Josh Allen was a bad quarterback in 2018. He was bad. He barely completed 50% of his passes. Looked horrific in multiple games, including a few very bad games just last season. Mayfield was pretty bad last season. 21 picks, accuracy issues, just overall still didn't have a good feel. This year? Much different.
As far as anyone else goes well, the majority of the league either has a QB that have been in the league forever by now, or they don't have a franchise QB. So let's go through a few of those. Big Ben - he struggled mightily early on. Finally figured it out in year 4. Drew Brees. His first two seasons playing, he struggled. He wasn't that good. Turned it over a lot and didn't reach 20 TD passes his first two seasons. Matt Ryan - his first two seasons were very mediocre. Figured it out completely in year 3.
It's only because he actually got better that people think he wasn't good early on.
I think the exercise here is to point out how fucking dumb it is to call Jones a bust or act like what he is now is all he'll ever be.
I agree with this but isn't it also dumb to assume he's the right QB to move forward with and will grow into a franchise QB?
Why is making one assumption fucking dumb but the other isn't?
2018 was Allen's rookie year, not year 2. Year 2 he was a much better player. He progressed from year one to year two.
Jones had a better rookie year, and then regressed in year 2. There really isn't a parallel in their development.
And the point is we do not know. Posters saying we know what Jones is right now sound moronic, both if they say he's going to be great or if he's going to be bad.
And a lot of the take on Jones goes to bias on how people thought when he was picked. How many here who vehemently disliked the pick are willing to have patience??
Sorry if you view that as a copout, but it's how I feel.
And the point is we do not know. Posters saying we know what Jones is right now sound moronic, both if they say he's going to be great or if he's going to be bad.
And a lot of the take on Jones goes to bias on how people thought when he was picked. How many here who vehemently disliked the pick are willing to have patience??
That's fair. For the record I hated the Jones pick. Hated it. After his play in 2019 I was feeling like I was dead wrong and thrilled about it. The turnovers and the decision making were problems, but he was a rookie so I was excited coming into this year.
I soured on Jones a lot this year. For much of the year the turnover issue was still bad, and the decision making wasn't noticeably better. This year he seemed to me to lock onto receivers more. The regression this year was disappointing.
I am not concluding on what Jones is and isn't. I haven't seen glimpses of special yet and I had hoped to. I have seen glimpses of good and above average. I am skeptical about his ceiling.
He will get next year most assuredly. But he has a big step forward to take before I start feeling like we found our guy.
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one is a mobile QB and one was a pure pocket passer.
I think the exercise here is to point out how fucking dumb it is to call Jones a bust or act like what he is now is all he'll ever be.
It's even dumber to say he's going to be good when he hasn't been yet.
Two years in and the rosiest scenario is that we don't know what Jones is. Great.
Not everyone shares this view. I m pretty confident he s the guy. He s athletic, makes all the throws, accurate, intelligent, hard worker, and improving.
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HBart was a great poster. I used to really enjoy kicking it around with him back in the day. Very bright guy.
FMiC is completely tethered to Gettleman. He trusts his decision making implicitly. If Gettleman says jump, FMiC says how high.
So if Gettleman believes in Jones, FMiC believes in Jones. And any criticism of Jones, despite how rational and measured it is, FMiC can't tolerate it. Which leads to inane threads like this...
Interesting that a parallel to Gettleman is drawn here. Who mentioned Gettleman?
Chris nailed it above. The thread was to show that people saying we know what we know about B's hasn't been a very good barometer. Hell, I heard several times in the past week that all Jones has to do is play better and all this talk goes away.
But does it?? eli had a SB MVP and the talk continued. Eli had a 2nd SB MVP and the talk continued.
I think the talk continued for Eli because there was a portion of the board that didn't like the way he was drafted. Hits the nail right on the head for bw - a supposed fan who never fully appreciated Eli because of holding draft day against him and Archie. Sad, yet true.
Things are holding serve for Jones too. Some posters will always hold it against him that he was picked 6th. Plain and simply.
I think more hold it against him because he replaced Eli
To answer your question - Baker Mayfield, Josh Allen. Josh Allen was a bad quarterback in 2018. He was bad. He barely completed 50% of his passes. Looked horrific in multiple games, including a few very bad games just last season. Mayfield was pretty bad last season. 21 picks, accuracy issues, just overall still didn't have a good feel. This year? Much different.
As far as anyone else goes well, the majority of the league either has a QB that have been in the league forever by now, or they don't have a franchise QB. So let's go through a few of those. Big Ben - he struggled mightily early on. Finally figured it out in year 4. Drew Brees. His first two seasons playing, he struggled. He wasn't that good. Turned it over a lot and didn't reach 20 TD passes his first two seasons. Matt Ryan - his first two seasons were very mediocre. Figured it out completely in year 3.
You don't get to pick and choose Jones's few ok games. The entire body of work over his 25 or so starts is poor. That is indisputable.
Can he turn it around and become one of the best in the league? I guess, but why would I believe that he could?
25 games in and we can't realistically say anything more optimistic than, "We don't know yet."
You may not think that's a problem. I do.
And a lot of the take on Jones goes to bias on how people thought when he was picked. How many here who vehemently disliked the pick are willing to have patience??
That's just a typical lazy, Tourette's like response.
Simple question - as the 6th pick in the draft, are you comfortable with what you have seen thus far from Jones? Forget all the excuses, just answer as is.
Because I believe that's the lens many of us are looking through when evaluating Jones after nearly two seasons.
Section331 : 11/3/2009 9:31 am : link
and continues to be, an issue. No doubt, I think we all expected Eli to be playing better at this point of his career.
It also helps to note that 5 of those "craptastic" games took place in Eli's rookie year. A +6 delta puts him in Brett Favre's category, with far fewer stats.
And any metric that rates David Garrard as a top ten QB is seriously flawed.
That said, any board like BBI is going to have a wide range of opinions. There are outliers on both sides of the DJ debate, those who have decided he sucks, just as there are those who have decided he is a budding all pro.
I think most posters critical of DJ (as I have been) are just more cautious about deciding he is a franchise QB. There are qualities to like, just as there are some concerning bad habits.
It's only because he actually got better that people think he wasn't good early on.
Ugh, missing it again.
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posted, the reference to QBR and Eli was made, and then the subjective "crap games" Eli had was used to say he's not a good QB, Jones is also continually having stats posted with the argument that he's a bad QB.
And the point is we do not know. Posters saying we know what Jones is right now sound moronic, both if they say he's going to be great or if he's going to be bad.
And a lot of the take on Jones goes to bias on how people thought when he was picked. How many here who vehemently disliked the pick are willing to have patience??
That's fair. For the record I hated the Jones pick. Hated it. After his play in 2019 I was feeling like I was dead wrong and thrilled about it. The turnovers and the decision making were problems, but he was a rookie so I was excited coming into this year.
I soured on Jones a lot this year. For much of the year the turnover issue was still bad, and the decision making wasn't noticeably better. This year he seemed to me to lock onto receivers more. The regression this year was disappointing.
I am not concluding on what Jones is and isn't. I haven't seen glimpses of special yet and I had hoped to. I have seen glimpses of good and above average. I am skeptical about his ceiling.
He will get next year most assuredly. But he has a big step forward to take before I start feeling like we found our guy.
When Jones got picked I just recall saying "Duke...isn't that where you find basketball players?"
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And a lot of the take on Jones goes to bias on how people thought when he was picked. How many here who vehemently disliked the pick are willing to have patience??
That's just a typical lazy, Tourette's like response.
Simple question - as the 6th pick in the draft, are you comfortable with what you have seen thus far from Jones? Forget all the excuses, just answer as is.
Because I believe that's the lens many of us are looking through when evaluating Jones after nearly two seasons.
When do most top QB's get drafted?? Again about patience. Baker Mayfield was selected #1 and you had people questioning him after last season. Kyler Murray was taken #1 and Arizona just missed the playoffs. We know about Aam Darnold and Josh Rosen.
I'm fine with what I've seen from Jones. I don't know if he's the guy or not, but there are so many factors here that people either intentionally dismiss or just don't think they are factors.
Jones has been pressured among the most in the league. His receivers get the least amount of separation. His top RB was out. He faced the toughest defenses of any QB. If you look at history - QB's under similar circumstances struggled.
I mean just look at the argumentation I keep seeing about the TD totals this season as being pathetic. when it is pointed out he had 24 TD's last season, there isn't some sort of acknowledgement that he can succeed, the response is "how many INT's and fumbles did he have".
What is lazy is having repeated anger because of his draft position. Would you be saying anything different if he was the 17th pick and Lawrence was the 6th pick??
But then again - you literally held eli's draft day actions against him his entire career, so I have no fucking clue why you would even want to poke on the rabbit hole. The fact you couldn't enjoy watching one of the best Giants doesn't go unnoticed.
It's only because he actually got better that people think he wasn't good early on.
This is an odd comment coming from someone who's argument for retaining Gettleman was "forget about the misses in his first two years. That is the past. 2020 was awesome!"
1. I felt like Josh Allen was more of a sure thing and obviously also a need
2. I felt like Jones would be available at 17 (and Allen definitely would not be) and if Jones somehow was not available, I was ok not to miss out on Jones. It was a gamble I was willing to make.
However, once he is wearing a NYG uniform there is nothing more that I want than for the guy to turn into the next Patrick Mahomes.
Anyone who roots for a player on a team you like to be a bust to make your draft day thoughts proven right is a psychopath. And insecure. I'd love to look back and say how wrong I was. It's actually pretty uplifting and freeing to be admittedly wrong on something so trivial. Some of you should try it.
They made the change after the Tampa game. It was obvious.
The Giants determined they had a better chance of winning if they didn't allow DJ to try and make as many plays with his head/arm.
That is why going back to saying he threw all those TDs as a rookie so he can do it is obtuse, one-sided thinking.
Pressures are not a variable independent of QB play. WR separation is also not independent of QB play. A WR who is bird dogged by the QB from the snap is typically not going to get separation. A QB who gets blitzed and needs to throw to the hot read is not going to have WRs with good separation numbers.
Is the Giants offensive line and WRs good? No. They are areas this team has failed to develop. But let's not pretend any QB dropped in that situation would have the exact same numbers unless the belief is QBs are all simply products of their systems.
And we don't know how good Jones will be. I don't think many will disagree. But I don't think we (or the Giants) should just throw up our hands and say we can't make projections on how good Jones will be. I was very high on Jones after last season. I didn't think he'd be a top five QB, but upper half starting QB. I wasn't all that confident in that, though. After this year I think the chances of him being top five are near zero. Top ten, pretty low. And my view is if you don't have a top ten QB, you're wasting your time.
Jones performed abysmally. Under tough conditions? Absolutely. But I didn't think the conditions were that much worse than last year. I actually thought the OL was a bit better than last year on the whole. I think that Barkley was a bigger loss than my anti-DG brethren, although I don't think Jones has double the TDs he would need to be around league average with him.
I hope I'm wrong on Jones. My ego isn't that tied up to projecting football players - I just want the Giants to be good.
And I think QBs take a lot less time to develop now than they did fifteen years ago. Jones will get another season. I'm fine with that.
I'd love to be wrong so I could experience this. :(
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It's actually pretty uplifting and freeing to be admittedly wrong on something so trivial.
I'd love to be wrong so I could experience this. :(
wait until you have kids. lol. Every parental instinct I have is just wrong or comes from TV/movies (and is wrong)
my kids try vaping, my instinct is to put them in a closet and force them to vape the equivalent of a box of cigars (Brewsters millions)
the kids fight, my instinct says have them put on boxing gloves and settle things
The neighbors kid broke my kids iPad so I gave him a "time out" from my house for 2 days. Holy shit my wife flipped over that one, "you can't punish someone else's kid. he's on the spectrum, his punishments are handled differently"
anyway I had a good streak of never being wrong until I had kids. Now, like I said it's very freeing and uplifting to just say "whoops, my bad"
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In comment 15114220 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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And a lot of the take on Jones goes to bias on how people thought when he was picked. How many here who vehemently disliked the pick are willing to have patience??
That's just a typical lazy, Tourette's like response.
Simple question - as the 6th pick in the draft, are you comfortable with what you have seen thus far from Jones? Forget all the excuses, just answer as is.
Because I believe that's the lens many of us are looking through when evaluating Jones after nearly two seasons.
When do most top QB's get drafted?? Again about patience. Baker Mayfield was selected #1 and you had people questioning him after last season. Kyler Murray was taken #1 and Arizona just missed the playoffs. We know about Aam Darnold and Josh Rosen.
I'm fine with what I've seen from Jones. I don't know if he's the guy or not, but there are so many factors here that people either intentionally dismiss or just don't think they are factors.
Jones has been pressured among the most in the league. His receivers get the least amount of separation. His top RB was out. He faced the toughest defenses of any QB. If you look at history - QB's under similar circumstances struggled.
I mean just look at the argumentation I keep seeing about the TD totals this season as being pathetic. when it is pointed out he had 24 TD's last season, there isn't some sort of acknowledgement that he can succeed, the response is "how many INT's and fumbles did he have".
What is lazy is having repeated anger because of his draft position. Would you be saying anything different if he was the 17th pick and Lawrence was the 6th pick??
But then again - you literally held eli's draft day actions against him his entire career, so I have no fucking clue why you would even want to poke on the rabbit hole. The fact you couldn't enjoy watching one of the best Giants doesn't go unnoticed.
I usually don't dignify your false claims with any response, but I will today.
Where did I ever say I didn't enjoy Eli's play? The fact is I never have said anything of the sort. But the draft day stunt - and we have been over this many times - bothered me because it reeked of some privilege. Peyton certainly didn't do it when the hideous Colts selected him. He embraced it.
So why continue to blatantly lie? It's such poor form and, frankly, classless.
As for the other comments, there is no anger (from my end). It's just wanting a high pick to live up to the expectations sooner due to contract #2 looming right around the corner.
If the Jones's performance had a trajectory that was going up - like the Allen example - than I think more posters would feel more comfortable. But Jones's trajectory is mostly flat or downward. So that should be some cause for concern...
But here is the underlying difference - one camp believes the 6th pick should be able to make chicken salad and another camp who believes it takes a village to make chicken salad. In other words, you are comfortable if Jones ends up being just a game manager. Strange standards.
Which ties back to draft position. If Jones was a fourth round selection, my tone would be much different because that is what I would expect from a fourth round pick - more of a game manager.
If a guy like Eli who won not 1, but 2 SB MVP's, exactly what keeps the mob at bay with Jones? For those that said all Jones needs to do is play better - well Eli did and he still took it on the chin here continually.
We could go back to threads saying he was a game manager in the SB's and not as productive as Mark Sanchez, but that's just jackassery.
Oddly.
I get why Eli had his critics. I just never understood the people who watched Eli and thought he sucked or diminished his contributions to our Super Bowls.
And lol, pj.
People being wrong in criticism of Eli in 2009 has nothing to do with being critical of Jones in 2021. Nothing.
I get why Eli had his critics. I just never understood the people who watched Eli and thought he sucked or diminished his contributions to our Super Bowls.
And lol, pj.
Eli did nothing so that defense must be a top 10 defense of all-time.
Present me the lists, please.
People being wrong in criticism of Eli in 2009 has nothing to do with being critical of Jones in 2021. Nothing.
I’m curious what you would do if you were Miami? If there was a upgrade, would you move off Tua?
And I think QBs take a lot less time to develop now than they did fifteen years ago. Jones will get another season. I'm fine with that.
Brett - you haven’t seen elite traits from Jones? Have you just watched the games where he hasn’t played well? His ball placement is excellent, and could absolutely be elite. When given time, he is deadly accurate with the ball. Which is why he’s been above 60% his first two years on a bad team.
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See if it still makes sense.
People being wrong in criticism of Eli in 2009 has nothing to do with being critical of Jones in 2021. Nothing.
I’m curious what you would do if you were Miami? If there was a upgrade, would you move off Tua?
Definitely. I didn't love him in college, and I haven't loved what I've seen in the pros. "Matt Leinart" kept popping up in my head.
It’s not reality that every awesome QB is just instantly good. In fact, it’s not even the norm.
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I'd also add, Eli showed elite flashes in his second season. I haven't seen that from Jones. Eli was always pretty boom/bust.
And I think QBs take a lot less time to develop now than they did fifteen years ago. Jones will get another season. I'm fine with that.
Brett - you haven’t seen elite traits from Jones? Have you just watched the games where he hasn’t played well? His ball placement is excellent, and could absolutely be elite. When given time, he is deadly accurate with the ball. Which is why he’s been above 60% his first two years on a bad team.
Well, he 'hasnt played well' in about 15 of his career starts. He's had about 4-5 great starts and a handful of good ones.
His ball placement isn't on par with what Eli when he was on. I don't think it's even close. And not close to the elite guys of today.
It’s not reality that every awesome QB is just instantly good. In fact, it’s not even the norm.
Allen and Mayfield are your examples? They don't come close to being as bad as Jones through two years.
Jones has been instantly bad, not so-so. Are we going to see him put up a third season like Allen and Mayfield just did? Why would we believe that? He didn't do it at Duke, he hasn't done it here.
There's nothing about Jones that's special. He was drafted because he was supposedly the most polished and NFL ready guy you could hope for. That hasn't borne out, and now we're stuck hoping a non-special guy somehow finds a way to be special.
All we can have is faith. There's nothing more to pin our hopes on. Bad way to run a business.
And for the record I miss Randy...
You’re stating that Jones can’t improve greatly. You’ve made your opinion known. I’m just telling you that you’re going to be wrong, and that’s my opinion. Doesn’t make either of us right. Because it hasn’t fucking happened yet.
You’re stating that Jones can’t improve greatly. You’ve made your opinion known. I’m just telling you that you’re going to be wrong, and that’s my opinion. Doesn’t make either of us right. Because it hasn’t fucking happened yet.
I always thought that a franchise QB earned that title...especially in the cap era. I didn't think that you just drafted a guy and gave him the title.
I'm not saying I'm 100% certain Jones won't work out...but what is the most likely scenario within the range of possible outcomes? I posted this thought a week or two ago.
On one end you have a complete washout like Haskins. We know Jones isn't that. On the other end you have Patrick Mahomes. We know Jones isn't also that.
Where is the greatest likelihood between those two extremes? Is it Russell Wilson? Is it Marcus Mariota? Which seems most likely to you?
That's how the Giants should be making their decision, and soon...the first decision point (his rookie option) is after next season.
If you ask me, Jones looks like a Mariota type...probably a good backup. That is not good enough. Even if he's better than that (Carr, Cousins, that sort)...that [i]still[\i] isn't good enough. To merit both the pick we spent and a second contract, he has to be up there with Wilson, Watson, Murray (before FMIC flips out, Murray accounted for 37 TDs this year...one fewer than Jones has in his career)...those types of guys.
Does Jones look like he's ever going to account for 37 TDs in a season?
Not to me. The flaws in his game are enormous.
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refuse to acknowledge the last 30 years of NFL history of QBs and the fact that franchise QBs who become entrenched with a team for a decade plus and are going to have ups and downs.
You’re stating that Jones can’t improve greatly. You’ve made your opinion known. I’m just telling you that you’re going to be wrong, and that’s my opinion. Doesn’t make either of us right. Because it hasn’t fucking happened yet.
I always thought that a franchise QB earned that title...especially in the cap era. I didn't think that you just drafted a guy and gave him the title.
I'm not saying I'm 100% certain Jones won't work out...but what is the most likely scenario within the range of possible outcomes? I posted this thought a week or two ago.
On one end you have a complete washout like Haskins. We know Jones isn't that. On the other end you have Patrick Mahomes. We know Jones isn't also that.
Where is the greatest likelihood between those two extremes? Is it Russell Wilson? Is it Marcus Mariota? Which seems most likely to you?
That's how the Giants should be making their decision, and soon...the first decision point (his rookie option) is after next season.
If you ask me, Jones looks like a Mariota type...probably a good backup. That is not good enough. Even if he's better than that (Carr, Cousins, that sort)...that [i]still[\i] isn't good enough. To merit both the pick we spent and a second contract, he has to be up there with Wilson, Watson, Murray (before FMIC flips out, Murray accounted for 37 TDs this year...one fewer than Jones has in his career)...those types of guys.
Does Jones look like he's ever going to account for 37 TDs in a season?
Not to me. The flaws in his game are enormous.
didn't he have 24 TDs in 12 games in 2019? Yes it is entirely possible. Not guaranteed, but possible.
If you don't think he can account for 37 in a single season within the next few years, well then you really just don't like the guy and you aren't being reasonable.
He could be in the 30-33 range his whole career and we'd be fine.
He would then need need to clean up the turnovers to be a top ten QB.
The next step in his career is to show it is not an either/or. He needs to be able to produce bug plays while securing the ball. That is what he has not yet done with any consistency.
.....if FMIC point is judging prematurely is not a good idea, this comparison is fair and the post is on point. Although, a post from 2006 would be a better comp because Eli haters in 2009 really missed the point as Eli was running top 5-7 scoring offenses between 08 and 12 and already was an SB MVP.
.....as far as not showing skills Eli had, look at Eli’s skill players in 05 vs what Jones had here in a terrible offensive set up. I saw Jones layer balls with anticipation downfield and did a lot of good things in 19. Even some of the starts this year. Also saw him run better than 90% of starting qbs. Haven’t seen it? He’s shown some. Is it really much worse than Eli in 04,05? I dont see anything resembling the talent Eli had to work with in 05.
By all means, judge him as not worthy if he doesn’t produce when Giants commit to more weapons and a healthy Barkley.
And like Chicken Teriyaki Boy said in the thread -
Chicken Teriyaki Boy : 11/3/2009 11:29 am : link
so we have something to remember the Anti-Eli Brigade by when they fade back into the woodwork after the next Super Bowl victory.
And yet, even a nd SB MVP didn't keep the morons from piling on.
Point being - the QB takes shit continually here, warranted or not. Rational or not.
And we don't know how good Jones will be. I don't think many will disagree. But I don't think we (or the Giants) should just throw up our hands and say we can't make projections on how good Jones will be. I was very high on Jones after last season. I didn't think he'd be a top five QB, but upper half starting QB. I wasn't all that confident in that, though. After this year I think the chances of him being top five are near zero. Top ten, pretty low. And my view is if you don't have a top ten QB, you're wasting your time.
Jones performed abysmally. Under tough conditions? Absolutely. But I didn't think the conditions were that much worse than last year. I actually thought the OL was a bit better than last year on the whole. I think that Barkley was a bigger loss than my anti-DG brethren, although I don't think Jones has double the TDs he would need to be around league average with him.
I hope I'm wrong on Jones. My ego isn't that tied up to projecting football players - I just want the Giants to be good.
Someone please inform the mods that someone has hacked Brett’s account and made a good post
If i play stat deceptor i can make troy aikman’s poor td totals look bad. outside of context of watching the games you might believe it. but aikman handed a lot of tds to mr smith and they rollled.
Might as well believe d jones is the most productive runner of all time over walter payton. what the stats said at some point earlier in 2020.....😎
While you may not like what you read from Jones' critics or feel like it isn't warranted at the level it is given, they do. But being appalled about it and calling everybody morons because they don't agree with your view is actually just your problem.
Jones has the backs of the organization as of now and seemingly is going to get his 3rd year to show himself. So his critics have the short end of the stick right now so why don't you just simply enjoy the high ground while you have it?
Or don't, but then its still just your problem.
Stay patient until it works. If it doesn’t, make excuses.
It’s actually a foolproof approach.
Yeah I read what I posted and rolled my eyes. That was me trying to make a case for a player I loved...shows how subjectivity can make you say things that are wrong.
Stay patient until it works. If it doesn’t, make excuses.
It’s actually a foolproof approach.
Which QB do you see being available at 11 which would tempt you to make the pick? I’m assuming Fields & Wilson are gone. Lance? Otherwise, I’d take a mid round development pick.
But too many here have recency bias and a quick trigger. Daniel
Jones isn’t in sam darnold territory........ yet.
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I think I get the formula now:
Stay patient until it works. If it doesn’t, make excuses.
It’s actually a foolproof approach.
Which QB do you see being available at 11 which would tempt you to make the pick? I’m assuming Fields & Wilson are gone. Lance? Otherwise, I’d take a mid round development pick.
I've been Fields's campaign manager much of the year. I'm really drawn to his high level dual-threat skills. He lit it up against Clemson with an outstanding performance. And I'm looking forward to the game Monday against Bama.
But I actually think he might be wise to head back to Columbus for one more year of refining. Fields could probably use a bit more time working on his progressions. The physical skills are there for sure...And I have NO idea where he's going in the draft.
Lance is very interesting, too. But not playing this year is a problem. NDST did play one game against Central Arkansas primarily to showcase his game, but Lance was rusty and didn't look particularly good. So I would probably steer clear of a high investment.
If Wilson was there at #11, I would give him a long, long look. He's a very gifted prospect and more talented than Jones.
Otherwise, I agree. Find a QB prospect in the middle rounds - like Desmond Ridder of Cincinnati. He looks like a real game who has some dual threat skills.
But too many here have recency bias and a quick trigger. Daniel
Jones isn’t in sam darnold territory........ yet.
Yep haasan. Patience or lack of patience results in a lot of different debates and takes on Daniel Jones. Some of them even hot takes, and some of them persistent.
How shocking that a fan site would go to such bounds!
Stay patient until it works. If it doesn’t, make excuses.
It’s actually a foolproof approach.
What I always find comical, the Defenders of all-things Giants seem to move the fastest to blowing their tops, cursing up a storm and calling everybody idiots and morons.
Preaching patience to fans yet practicing none.
Same here. Both those guys are mobile and careful with the ball. Good targets.
Based entirely on reduced turnovers. Absence of a negative. Just a pathetically low standard.
It doesn't have anything to do with skill or talent. It has everything to do with the fact that they are adjusting to the NFL game and usually are on a bad team if they get picked really high.
Can you provide some of these countless examples? You do this a lot, speak in generalities to back up your position to make it seems like it happens all the time, but never provide examples.
And no, the onus isn't on me to do my own research; you said it, so I'm curious how many QBs had starts the same as Jones that ended up very good or in the hall of fame.