31st in offense is clearly the issue heading into the offseason. And this is my main problem with people high on Judge after year 1. I like the words he says, but it’s a results business and what we needed from this HC hire was for Jones to become a good QB. He stepped back this year. That does not mean he’s done, but it leaves major strides needed in Year 3 and the staff in place did not seem the have answers. So we clearly need to get him a better weapon to make the complimentary pieces better as a result. Jones just seems to lack QB instincts from my amateur eyes viewing from
afar. Poor presnap recognition, poor general pocket awareness, and rarely comes off the ininitial read to anything other than a checkdown or a run. Physically the guy has the tools, if he sees it he can make the throw. He can move. I never liked the Garrett hire and was hoping the Columbo incident combined with the results would get him out at seasons end. This offense from a passing standpoint never seemed to fit him. Mixing in RPOs was our “big” play package and I don’t want Jones running by design. That leads to injuries and he’s missed time in each of his first 2 years. I’m not giving up, but Im down on him heading into Year 3 and if they can’t upgrade the weaponry I’m very concerned they’ll be back in the QB pool next offseason.
High on or down on Jones, you can't take designed runs for him out of the offense just because you don't want to risk getting him injured.
High on or down on Jones, you can't take designed runs for him out of the offense just because you don't want to risk getting him injured.
Amen bro
If he can't get over the hump in year 3, then you start to move on, but they have to give every opportunity and then some to make it work with DJ.
High on or down on Jones, you can't take designed runs for him out of the offense just because you don't want to risk getting him injured.
Sure you can. If they want to dial one up here or there in a big spot, fine. However they built this line and took Barkley # 2, run him. If they get down by the goal and Jones wants to fake a handoff to Barkley can cruise into the end zone untouched Tannehill style, great. However his right arm is what needs to drive his game. He can run when plays break down and he sees a gaping hole. That aspect remains. You need your QB on the field in this league.
With the rest of the division having their issues across the board, there really are no excuses anymore. And this is coming from someone who obviously has defended the roster for awhile now.
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A thread about Daniel Jones. I've been waiting for that topic to finally come up.
High on or down on Jones, you can't take designed runs for him out of the offense just because you don't want to risk getting him injured.
Sure you can. If they want to dial one up here or there in a big spot, fine. However they built this line and took Barkley # 2, run him. If they get down by the goal and Jones wants to fake a handoff to Barkley can cruise into the end zone untouched Tannehill style, great. However his right arm is what needs to drive his game. He can run when plays break down and he sees a gaping hole. That aspect remains. You need your QB on the field in this league.
This isn't how football is played anymore. Mobile QBs don't stand in the pocket. Allen hasn't missed a game and Jackson was sidelined with COVID, not an injury from running.
Jones needs to get smarter about protecting himself when he does run.
If he can't get over the hump in year 3, then you start to move on, but they have to give every opportunity and then some to make it work with DJ.
He was at Duke with David Cutcliffe for four years. I really don't think a lack of coaching has been his problem.
I'm kinda the opposite of you on DJ, BUT picking at #11 and lacking the assets to land a D. Watson - I've been kinda forced into the thinking of "this is it".
I don't think he's a franchise QB. I think he has some major deficiencies that will keep him from ever becoming one. I fear that the rest of the team will get better, and get to a point where they won't be able to draft in a premium spot to get a franchise QB and will be forced into a situation where they have to win in spite of the QB, not because of him - just like the Bears, the Rams, the 49ers...etc.
That's a tough spot to be.
HOWEVER, since we're stuck with him - I'm going to root like hell for the kid and hope that I'm dead wrong. Mainly because there's no doubt - the best way forward for the NYG is for DJ to be the answer.
I think Judge and the front office really believes in the kid. So, they are going to see it through. Eventually you have to set your QB up for better success. It happened with Eli from 2006-2011. Now is the time to start that run of good OL play and good weapons across the board.
1. Jones plays really well in year 3, we've got our guy
2. Jones regresses again, isn't improving, we don't have our guy, we move on and look at 2022 QBs
3. Jones plays somewhat well, we get into the playoffs but he's still turning it over too much...the "team" is good enough that a really good QB would be make them a legit contender, then you have a legit decision to make
very possible
Look at the disaster the Eagles have with Wentz and his big contract.
Is Danny that type of QB? The one that will lead us to the playoffs year after year?
Can he be the next Aaron Rodgers or is he closer to Mitchell Trubisky?
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very possible
If it's number 3 - I think you're too late.
Yup, and that's why it is put up or shutup time for the front office to give the kid a bit more around him to make sure they know one way or the other.
1. Jones plays really well in year 3, we've got our guy
2. Jones regresses again, isn't improving, we don't have our guy, we move on and look at 2022 QBs
3. Jones plays somewhat well, we get into the playoffs but he's still turning it over too much...the "team" is good enough that a really good QB would be make them a legit contender, then you have a legit decision to make
We should have never gotten to this situation. I said it at the time I’ve said it since, and I say it now. The Giants should have let Eli play out his last year as the starter, and never drafted DJ, or any QB that year, and filled other needs, and taken a QB last year when there was better ones to take, and not wasted a 6th pick on DJ. NO other team would have done that.
I meant 50% of the passes he dropped
Draft one - which is super hard to do b/c you're drafting in the late teens as a 1st rd playoff team loser.
OR
Sign one - If the Giants go this route, they are way more likely to end up with the aging, expensive QB type ... like PHilip Rivers in Indy. It's really hard to remain successful with that approach.
OR
Trade for one - it's really hard to get a team to give up on a franchise type QB. That's why the D. WAtson thing will be so interesting to watch. Of course, you can always go with the hail mary approach and give up draft assets to make a deal and hope that a guy behind the franchise QB is the real deal - like JImmy G. OR trade for a guy that used to be franchise QB was has fallen on hard times - like Cam N. last year and seemingly Carson W. this year.
Those options are really tough to hit a homerun on.
This is just scapegoating. Engram had 11 drops this year. You think 6 additional completions changes anything?
He dropped two balls against Dallas week 17 and we won that game and Jones played well. So those two drops have zero impact on what we think of Jones.
If he catches the ball against Philly and we win that game and make the playoffs, I doubt many opinions on him would be different at all.
So certainly there was an impact, even if minimal
the Bucs signed that aging QB franchise QB
and the Saints traded for their franchise QB to get Brees.
All are still alive in the tourey. So it is possible.
So certainly there was an impact, even if minimal
Some of those were balls Engram should have caught and were not Jones' fault. Some of them were throws where he stared down Engram and allowed defenders to jump the route or contest the catch.
Evan Engram is a shitty TE. He is not the boogeyman.
So, yes, he is a scapegoat for a few game killing plays. Any Giants fan would agree with this statement.
So yes, I think our opinion of Jones changes if he A) could catch or B) is off the team.
So, yes, he is a scapegoat for a few game killing plays. Any Giants fan would agree with this statement.
This is just silly. Evan Engram is not the difference between this team being bad and being good. If he is, and he is still out there taking snaps, I guess you think Judge is asleep at the wheel since he is leaving in a player who is single-handidly costing us multiple games?
Stop this nonsense. This is moving out of biased analysis and into full fledged conspiracy theories.
I didn't say "Evan Engram isn't the difference between the team being bad and being good." You put those words in my mouth. Nobody on this board is saying that. Stop the bullshit my dude.
I said he changed multiple games with his drive killing plays. Now, do we win those games? Maybe, maybe not. But I didn't say we are all of a sudden a good team if he's not out there.
I didn't say "Evan Engram isn't the difference between the team being bad and being good." You put those words in my mouth. Nobody on this board is saying that. Stop the bullshit my dude.
I said he changed multiple games with his drive killing plays. Now, do we win those games? Maybe, maybe not. But I didn't say we are all of a sudden a good team if he's not out there.
Explain what "he changed multiple games with his drive killing plays" means if it doesn't mean multiple wins became losses?
Did he win us many games with his drive killing plays?
Did his drive killing plays not change the outcome?
Do help me out here.
Agree. I don't think there are many fans that are down on Judge, nor should they be.
Garrett is an issue. They do not take enough shots down the field. Yes their personnel is not ideal, but they played so many games where teams played 1 S deep and they didn't even try to go deep. They play defensive on offense
How many times is it mentioned that receivers run the same depth pattern. The offense is a simple offense to defend
However, he holds onto the ball a while in the pocket so he needs to be given more time to throw and he is bad at making reads post snap.
Therefore, he needs:
*More play action (gives him more time in the pocket)
*More designed plays where running in the 2nd option
*More deep throws
This year, the offense really didn't fit his skillset and it made him look really bad. The fact that the Giants were bottom half of the league in play action despite running an offense focused on the run was really bad. The Giants also tried to have Jones get the ball out quicker this year and make shorter throws. I'm guessing this was to limit sacks and turnovers, but it played to his weaknesses.
Aside from he Eagles game, which DEFINITELY would have equaled a win, what I'm trying to say is that Engram had like....12 plays this season where we probably score a FG or TD on the drive if he doesn't completely fuck up the play.
Again, that doesn't mean we WIN the game. But it means we are certainly set up better to win that game.
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Games, it shouldn’t be difficult to understand why we as optimistic about Judge.
Agree. I don't think there are many fans that are down on Judge, nor should they be.
Judge was a rookie, but he did make big mistakes like playing Jones against Arizona when he was hurt, and couldn’t move, and then had to set out more games after that. Also Joes has cost the Giants more wins than Engram has.
1. Jones plays really well in year 3, we've got our guy
2. Jones regresses again, isn't improving, we don't have our guy, we move on and look at 2022 QBs
3. Jones plays somewhat well, we get into the playoffs but he's still turning it over too much...the "team" is good enough that a really good QB would be make them a legit contender, then you have a legit decision to make
I think #3 is the most likely scenario, and that isn't necessarily the worst thing. You can have an average to above average QB and be a good team if he has pieces around him. As long as he isn't turning the ball over.
Look at a guy like Joe Flacco, no one ever had him as a top 10 QB, but he won a SB, and his teams were competitive almost every year. A good defense and a good running game take a lot of pressure off of a QB.
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that there are 3 scenarios.
1. Jones plays really well in year 3, we've got our guy
2. Jones regresses again, isn't improving, we don't have our guy, we move on and look at 2022 QBs
3. Jones plays somewhat well, we get into the playoffs but he's still turning it over too much...the "team" is good enough that a really good QB would be make them a legit contender, then you have a legit decision to make
I think #3 is the most likely scenario, and that isn't necessarily the worst thing. You can have an average to above average QB and be a good team if he has pieces around him. As long as he isn't turning the ball over.
Look at a guy like Joe Flacco, no one ever had him as a top 10 QB, but he won a SB, and his teams were competitive almost every year. A good defense and a good running game take a lot of pressure off of a QB.
So now we're hoping that DJ ends up being as good as Joe Flacco?
Aside from he Eagles game, which DEFINITELY would have equaled a win, what I'm trying to say is that Engram had like....12 plays this season where we probably score a FG or TD on the drive if he doesn't completely fuck up the play.
Again, that doesn't mean we WIN the game. But it means we are certainly set up better to win that game.
Let's agree to disagree that a couple more theoretical field goal drives would have made a lot of people think differently of Jones.
I think most fans can evaluate a QBs play absent drops by a TE.
So now we're hoping that DJ ends up being as good as Joe Flacco?
No, I'm still hoping he will be a transformative player, but my reality says that is unlikely. I think he'll be an average to above-average QB, and hope he ends up more like Joe Flacco and not Mitch Trubisky.
My point was that with a strong team around him, a good but not great QB can succeed.
So yes, I think our opinion of Jones changes if he A) could catch or B) is off the team.
Evan Engram had 8 drops. It's too many, but it wasn't the difference between Jones having a great year or a shitty year. And he is not a coach killer. By all accounts, he works hard. Judge plays him, so he obviously trusts him.
Engram has to do a better job catching the ball, but he is one of the few capable of getting open. The hate he gets around here is not in line with his performance.
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Evan Engram is a coach killer, a drive killer, and one of the main reasons our offense couldn't get going in a ton of opportunities.
So yes, I think our opinion of Jones changes if he A) could catch or B) is off the team.
Evan Engram had 8 drops. It's too many, but it wasn't the difference between Jones having a great year or a shitty year. And he is not a coach killer. By all accounts, he works hard. Judge plays him, so he obviously trusts him.
Engram has to do a better job catching the ball, but he is one of the few capable of getting open. The hate he gets around here is not in line with his performance.
What’s more important going forward? A better TE, or a better QB? A better QB hands down.
And to be honest, even if it was just "8 drops" that is still really really bad. Unfortunately, his drops always lead to the other team having the ball.
Does not throw receivers open
Stares down receivers
Without knowing the play call and if the receivers are actually open how can you make these 3 criticisms.
Does not throw receivers open
Stares down receivers
Without knowing the play call and if the receivers are actually open how can you make these 3 criticisms.
Why would you need to know the play call to determine if the QB is staring down a receiver? Can't you just see that with your eyes?
And to be honest, even if it was just "8 drops" that is still really really bad. Unfortunately, his drops always lead to the other team having the ball.
He had 1 fumble all year. End around drops would count as fumbles, as I'm not aware of any where Jones pitched the ball forward to him, so no, there were no "end-around drops". Given how often you defend Jones, fumbles is a weird hill to die on.
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In comment 15118446 ryanmkeane said:
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that there are 3 scenarios.
1. Jones plays really well in year 3, we've got our guy
2. Jones regresses again, isn't improving, we don't have our guy, we move on and look at 2022 QBs
3. Jones plays somewhat well, we get into the playoffs but he's still turning it over too much...the "team" is good enough that a really good QB would be make them a legit contender, then you have a legit decision to make
I think #3 is the most likely scenario, and that isn't necessarily the worst thing. You can have an average to above average QB and be a good team if he has pieces around him. As long as he isn't turning the ball over.
Look at a guy like Joe Flacco, no one ever had him as a top 10 QB, but he won a SB, and his teams were competitive almost every year. A good defense and a good running game take a lot of pressure off of a QB.
So now we're hoping that DJ ends up being as good as Joe Flacco?
Well, Flacco actually had some pretty good years in Baltimore and won a Super Bowl, so yea I’d be ecstatic if he ended up with those results.