... on BBI either marginalize him or don’t see him as a great player?
After an absurd Heisman-winning college career, he’s 30-7 as a Ravens starter. In his last 2 years, he’s accounted for 74 TDs vs 20 turnovers (in 30 games). He’s also been a top 10 rusher each of the past 2 years (averaging an historic 6.5 ypc) — thus, providing the Ravens an added ball control/clock killing advantage. And, after last year, he was voted the overall no. 1 player in the NFL by his peers.
So what’s the argument? That he lost his first 2 playoff games (at age 22 and 23) and his game won’t translate to playoff football? From where I sit, he’s among the handful of most impactful on winning players in the NFL.
Every other NFL team passed on him before Balt took him.
Although he's an explosive player, the theory is that his style of play is easier to stop in the playoffs when great defenses will force him to beat them via the pass.
Up until yesterday, the Ravens had also struggled to come back in games partly because of their offensive style built around Lamar. By winning a playoff game and coming back from an early double digit deficit yesterday, Lamar and the Ravens answered two big questions.
I think he is a very good QB but isn't the passer needed if they fall behind. Yesterday they fell behind early but the Titans left them hanging around.
I think they will get some points and cause some damage to Buffalo but, if they fall behind and have to throw it is over.
Every other NFL team passed on him before Balt took him.
Amazing. The purpose of a QB is to score/not turn the ball over. Under Jackson, the Ravens led the NFL in scoring AND time of possession in 2019, and were no. 6 in scoring and no. 5 in TOP this year (a year when so many people seemed to delight in his apparent demise lol).
I think this pretty much nails it perfectly
The knock on him was that he couldn't win a playoff game. Then he did. Now the knock is he can't win two.
Although he's an explosive player, the theory is that his style of play is easier to stop in the playoffs when great defenses will force him to beat them via the pass.
Up until yesterday, the Ravens had also struggled to come back in games partly because of their offensive style built around Lamar. By winning a playoff game and coming back from an early double digit deficit yesterday, Lamar and the Ravens answered two big questions.
This.
I'd add that his style is often more injury prone. Additionally, speed doesn't age as well as other QB attributes. I think many see him as, he'll be great as long as he has that burst. Once he loses the burst (as we saw happen at a young age with ODB), there are questions on whether he can be a franchise QB.
Right now he is a fantastic player, and one of the most exciting players in the game.
But because his "land" game is so unorthodox - and it is - it's easy to see why some are dubious about LJax as a passer.
Ultimately, IMV, he's going to lose his speed edge and have to be more of a pocket passer. I think...
But maybe he bucks that and will always be a threat. That just puts a team in a tough spot for any long term deal because of the exposure LJax has when he runs...
Likewise running down another young QB is just another way of saying our young QB is great.
I love ya, generally agree with you, but that is simply absurd. Last year he threw for 345 yards (and rushed for 155) v the Titans in a playoff loss. 500 yards of offense vs a Vrabel defense. And the guy who “can’t throw the ball” has thrown for 62 TDs the past 2 years.
Not trying to crown him, Mahomes wears the crown, but there is a definite disconnect between fact and fiction on this guy.
Except that posters here say the same thing about Allen and Herbert.
Likewise running down another young QB is just another way of saying our young QB is great.
This is so very true. Allen is the same A young QB having success challenges the expectation so people make excuses.
"They are winning despite Jackson"
"Allen has an all-star roster"
Neither guy can just be talented.
Harbaugh knows exactly what he is doing.
That's why some people aren't as high on him as others.
Harbaugh knows exactly what he is doing.
And all his running eats the clock. Ravens no. 1 and no. 5 in time of possession since he took over. It’s classic, beautiful, physical control the ball cold weather football straight out of Lombardi. With the added perk of being the no. 2 scoring offense the past 2 years.
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what he does against the Bills. I'm not ready to crown the guy that basically can't throw the ball in a playoff game.
I love ya, generally agree with you, but that is simply absurd. Last year he threw for 345 yards (and rushed for 155) v the Titans in a playoff loss. 500 yards of offense vs a Vrabel defense. And the guy who “can’t throw the ball” has thrown for 62 TDs the past 2 years.
Not trying to crown him, Mahomes wears the crown, but there is a definite disconnect between fact and fiction on this guy.
This year he threw for under 200 yards, no TDs and an INT. They won because of his legs and their defense. Including the playoff game, 11 of his 17 games have been under 200 yards passing. He is a fantastic player, but I think people see things like that and question whether he is a true franchise QB. There really hasn't been a player like him that has been.
My opinion is he is a top QB right now, no question. Yet I still do have a concern about how good he will be should he lose his burst and/or face some injuries that effect his running ability.
I have been one of the posters you have been describing. As I've said in the past, you watch him throw enough, as a technical passer, he doesn't make all the throws.
But because of the nature of him and that offense, it's incredibly hard to defend, and he still results in a high completion percentage.
One could argue that only the results matter.
My argument is that the one-dimensional nature of his game will prevent him from ever winning a championship. I'm a little surprised they were able to beat the Titans yesterday after being behind. If their defense is able to slow down the Bills like they did the Titans, they have a chance to prove me wrong.
But I still don't believe Lamar is the kind of player that will lead you to a Super Bowl victory as a QB. Regular season success? Absolutely. Every year.
I watched him often in college. Amazing talent. I worried in the NFL that the bigger, faster players would mitigate his superior athletic traits he enjoyed in college. I was wrong. I also considered a longer regular and playoff season and more chances for injury.
Calculated risk by the Ravens. They have had success and Lamar has been outstanding. I hope it continues but still think the passing ability will be exposed as you attempt to navigate the playoffs.
He is going to want a big contract this offseason (deservingly). Interested to see how the Ravens handle it.
He’s not a good passer in the classical sense, but he’s a great scoring passer — 31 passing TDs per game the past 2 years ... even though they tend to run in the red zone.
I noticed that too, was really nice to hear especially since I haven’t really heard many interviews of him.
He is not a good passer at all and has struggled when they are behind, but he is an absolute nightmare to deal with
He is not big and you wonder if he ultimately gets hurt, but few can catch him right now
I think it is hard with teams looking at him out of college and seeing the potential for the injury to the most important position.
But he is a great player.
He pulled his team off field yesterday without shaking hands. Lost a little respect with that move.
Thst being said he is very dybamic and a good player, not a good qb. I dont see him einning it all. Also, his record...team gets some credit there. His OL is insane good especially last season. Defense is great too
As said above, he's not a prototypical QB but he's been really effective and successful. But judging him on the traditional way to look at QB's is really difficult
I have been one of the posters you have been describing. As I've said in the past, you watch him throw enough, as a technical passer, he doesn't make all the throws.
But because of the nature of him and that offense, it's incredibly hard to defend, and he still results in a high completion percentage.
One could argue that only the results matter.
My argument is that the one-dimensional nature of his game will prevent him from ever winning a championship. I'm a little surprised they were able to beat the Titans yesterday after being behind. If their defense is able to slow down the Bills like they did the Titans, they have a chance to prove me wrong.
But I still don't believe Lamar is the kind of player that will lead you to a Super Bowl victory as a QB. Regular season success? Absolutely. Every year.
Jim, you know he threw for 345 yards vs the Titans playoff loss last year, right? One dimensional? Has any Giant QB ever thrown for 345 yards in a playoff game?
I do want to see how he does against top level defenses in the playoffs, as I still have some questions about his ability to consistently make plays from the pocket, but he is a fascinating player. He is obviously extremely fast, and very elusive, but he also has this uncanny ability to turn his body away from the point of contact. You could count the number of QB's who could make multiple 40+ yd runs in a single game on one hand - Lamar, Vick, and young RGIII. Anyone else?
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It easy to see why people doubt him. He's not a good passer but that's really beside the point with him. I light of his other skills he's a plenty good passer. The guy is just something else altogether.
He’s not a good passer in the classical sense, but he’s a great scoring passer — 31 passing TDs per game the past 2 years ... even though they tend to run in the red zone.
Agree completely.
As said above, he's not a prototypical QB but he's been really effective and successful. But judging him on the traditional way to look at QB's is really difficult
Exactly right, and I think many in and round the NFL try to bash him because they can't evaluate him in traditional ways.
He pulled his team off field yesterday without shaking hands. Lost a little respect with that move.
Thst being said he is very dybamic and a good player, not a good qb. I dont see him einning it all. Also, his record...team gets some credit there. His OL is insane good especially last season. Defense is great too
By what measure is he a “dogshit passer”? Career 64% completion pct and 7.5 ypa — and averages more than 2 TDs passing per game ... despite being outside the top 20 in attempts.
Maybe you don’t like the aesthetics of his motion — but he’s been a brutally effective passer where it counts — scoring TDs.
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No QB like him has ever won the Super Bowl.
I have been one of the posters you have been describing. As I've said in the past, you watch him throw enough, as a technical passer, he doesn't make all the throws.
But because of the nature of him and that offense, it's incredibly hard to defend, and he still results in a high completion percentage.
One could argue that only the results matter.
My argument is that the one-dimensional nature of his game will prevent him from ever winning a championship. I'm a little surprised they were able to beat the Titans yesterday after being behind. If their defense is able to slow down the Bills like they did the Titans, they have a chance to prove me wrong.
But I still don't believe Lamar is the kind of player that will lead you to a Super Bowl victory as a QB. Regular season success? Absolutely. Every year.
Jim, you know he threw for 345 yards vs the Titans playoff loss last year, right? One dimensional? Has any Giant QB ever thrown for 345 yards in a playoff game?
C'mon. Ben threw for 500 yards. Did he have a good game or was he a primary reason they lost? Is that really the way QB's in the postseason are measured??
He's a great player no doubt. But I mean, come on. He just played OK in a playoff game and everyone is like screaming that he finally got off the hump. Let's see what he can do in the divisional round.
He's a great player no doubt. But I mean, come on. He just played OK in a playoff game and everyone is like screaming that he finally got off the hump. Let's see what he can do in the divisional round.
Fair enough RK, that makes sense. Next week should be a battle!
Good points FMiC.
He....didn't play that well. If the Titans showed up they win that game easily.
Yes, LJ still has things to prove, but I don't think it's necessarily because of the type of QB he is.
Baltimore deserves a ton of credit for building things in a way to take advantage of Jacksons unique skills. This same offense could not work with other QBs, even so called mobile QB's like Mahommes, Wilson, and Baker.
Excellent question. If I was a GM and had to build my team around one of those 3 long-term, Mahomes would be the clear no. 1 ... and I think Allen would be no. 2 over Jackson. But ... lots of people talk about Jackson like he is some marginal scrub, which just puzzles me.
A “running QB” who also happens to average over 2 passing TDs per game, despite limited attempts. How many guys have thrown for more TDs (much less combined TDs) the past 2 years? And, that’s even factoring in the ball control style they play in.
-A usually dominant offensive line
-Powerful running back(s) behind him
-A usually good defense
Kaepernick was held in high regard as well under Roman and with a similar supporting cast until the personnel wheels fell off in SF. Roman left and the rest is history.
Jackson is a more explosive runner than Kap and maybe a better (albeit different) passer with room for improvement. With the Ravens front office he has a better chance of keeping those key pieces around him than enable his success (power run game, defense).
I'm not convinced Jackson could carry a team in the future with less than ideal pieces like a Rogers or other good passers have in their careers. It also remains to be seen if injury derails him like it has for every other running quarterback to play the game.
But there is no doubt the Ravens have done an outstanding job molding the offense to him, and he fits that vision like a glove.
Lamar had 10 more passing TDs than Mahomes last year, in only 1 more game.
-A usually dominant offensive line
-Powerful running back(s) behind him
-A usually good defense
Kaepernick was held in high regard as well under Roman and with a similar supporting cast until the personnel wheels fell off in SF. Roman left and the rest is history.
Jackson is a more explosive runner than Kap and maybe a better (albeit different) passer with room for improvement. With the Ravens front office he has a better chance of keeping those key pieces around him than enable his success (power run game, defense).
I'm not convinced Jackson could carry a team in the future with less than ideal pieces like a Rogers or other good passers have in their careers. It also remains to be seen if injury derails him like it has for every other running quarterback to play the game.
But there is no doubt the Ravens have done an outstanding job molding the offense to him, and he fits that vision like a glove.
I just googled Cory Widmer ... some pretty solid eyebrows. He’s no Eugene Levy, but pretty damn solid.
Ravens did what everyone did to us with Barkley this year, just stuff the run and make the QB beat you. Only difference here is Tannehill has WRs and a TE I’d kill for and for some reason didn’t throw much after getting the lead. 26 attempts for RT and I bet 10 of them were in the 1st quarter.
Vrabel got undressed.
This was a big concern coming out of college and his Wonderlic score didn't help much. Neither has his inability to perform in the playoffs as a QB...
I do want to see how he does against top level defenses in the playoffs, as I still have some questions about his ability to consistently make plays from the pocket, but he is a fascinating player. He is obviously extremely fast, and very elusive, but he also has this uncanny ability to turn his body away from the point of contact. You could count the number of QB's who could make multiple 40+ yd runs in a single game on one hand - Lamar, Vick, and young RGIII. Anyone else?
Daniel Jones actually.
He is a fantastic passer. Fantastic.
My guess is ... he won't, but the Ravens have decided to ride him for what he is right now, and worry about 5 years from now 5 years from now.
Or put another, more accurate way: as a QB, he's not so great at throwing gorgeous passes, but he's very good at moving the offense from one side of the field to the other and getting it to score points.
He is a fantastic passer. Fantastic.
Jackson has 2 less passing TDs than Mahomes in 2019 and 2020 (64 vs. 66) ... in 300 less attempts. Not bad for a gadget player.
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Either passing or rushing
Lamar had 10 more passing TDs than Mahomes last year, in only 1 more game.
What about in the playoffs?
If they were around the same age, absolutely. But Mahomes has father time on his side, so he's the clear #1 to be everyone's franchise QB. Crazy that we're now saying that Allen may be top 5 if not top 3.
The guy is one of the very best players in the league. Questions about sustainability are fair, and Baltimore needs to weigh that when considering a contract...but right now he absolutely makes them a title contender.
Something else to consider is that he is doing it on an offense that is not stacked. The offensive line had injury issues this year and the skill players aren't great. Baltimore may be inclined to pay him because he's down he doesn't need a huge supporting cast.
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Either passing or rushing
Lamar had 10 more passing TDs than Mahomes last year, in only 1 more game.
And he absolutely earned the MVP award, no doubt. But when he had to win the game against the Titans with his arm, he didn't play well at all despite the yards he put up. Mahomes, on the other hand, brought his team back from losing multiple times in the playoffs to win the Super Bowl and the Super Bowl MVP. So while Jackson was absolutely on fire during the regular season, he showed his lack of passing game in his lone game last season.
He is also a really young QB still, this is only his third season. I think he’ll become a better passer over time. Cunningham seemed to improve as a passer every year and was arguably playing his best football late in his career for the Vikings.
He is a fantastic passer. Fantastic.
I'm not sure that just looking at the TD/INT ration really justifies calling him a fantastic passer. Those are out of this world numbers, but he isn't the most refined passer despite his numbers. Take away his legs, and he becomes a mediocre QB.
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In comment 15118711 Greg from LI said:
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Either passing or rushing
Lamar had 10 more passing TDs than Mahomes last year, in only 1 more game.
What about in the playoffs?
Mahomes has been a dominant all-timer and Jackson average ... at best. If Lamar shits the bed v the Bills, I owe you and your alter ego Patterson Plank, drinks. (That’s a joke of course!)
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In comment 15118715 Jim from Katonah said:
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In comment 15118711 Greg from LI said:
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Either passing or rushing
Lamar had 10 more passing TDs than Mahomes last year, in only 1 more game.
What about in the playoffs?
Mahomes has been a dominant all-timer and Jackson average ... at best. If Lamar shits the bed v the Bills, I owe you and your alter ego Patterson Plank, drinks. (That’s a joke of course!)
LOL deal!
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Something like 46/0 in the red zone.
He is a fantastic passer. Fantastic.
I'm not sure that just looking at the TD/INT ration really justifies calling him a fantastic passer. Those are out of this world numbers, but he isn't the most refined passer despite his numbers. Take away his legs, and he becomes a mediocre QB.
Isn't that like saying "Take away Peyton Manning's brain and he's a mediocre qb"?
Jackson's running ability and how it opens up the passing game is part of the package. He puts defenses in a bind.
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In comment 15118711 Greg from LI said:
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Either passing or rushing
Lamar had 10 more passing TDs than Mahomes last year, in only 1 more game.
And he absolutely earned the MVP award, no doubt. But when he had to win the game against the Titans with his arm, he didn't play well at all despite the yards he put up. Mahomes, on the other hand, brought his team back from losing multiple times in the playoffs to win the Super Bowl and the Super Bowl MVP. So while Jackson was absolutely on fire during the regular season, he showed his lack of passing game in his lone game last season.
Fair enough. This is only his 3rd season, and playoff questions definitely remain.
That game he won on Sunday, games aren't always going to just fall that way. A QB ultimately is going to have to pass his way to victory and I'm not sure he's there yet.
I'll also say I don't think the Ravens are necessarily built that way - more of a run oriented team (which includes Jax) with TEs who create mismatches.
I just wish he would have stuck around and said congrats to the Titans instead of waving off his team with time still ont the clock...looked childish.
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Something like 46/0 in the red zone.
He is a fantastic passer. Fantastic.
I'm not sure that just looking at the TD/INT ration really justifies calling him a fantastic passer. Those are out of this world numbers, but he isn't the most refined passer despite his numbers. Take away his legs, and he becomes a mediocre QB.
He's not a fantastic passer.....stop.
He's a great quarterback.
Boy was I wrong. Wish he were a Giant now.
If you want your QB to take seven step drops and throw the ball all over the field, Jackson isn't your guy. If you want a dynamic offense that wins games by scoring points and eating clock, there are few better.
He didn't get that league MVP out of a cracker jacks box.
And he has the same playoff record as Eli Manning had after 3 playoff games.
Watching the Ravens vs. Titans game yesterday, I couldn't help but think that if AJ Brown was on the Ravens then their offense would be on another level. That kind of legit #1 with size and strength is missing from the Ravens offense, and it has nothing to do with Lamar Jackson. They've resorted to praying that an over the hill Dez Bryant can fill that role.
Do you really think he is incapable of modifying his game to some degree or that Harbaugh and Raven coaches cannot employ other offensive strategies to adapt with success? They have some nice weapons and variety on that offense that can pick up and help a great deal. Learning to win in the playoffs for QBs isn't some new phenomenon that just started with Jackson nor one that that I would imagine a MVP-type player of his caliber incapable of overcoming.
If you want your QB to take seven step drops and throw the ball all over the field, Jackson isn't your guy. If you want a dynamic offense that wins games by scoring points and eating clock, there are few better.
He didn't get that league MVP out of a cracker jacks box.
And he has the same playoff record as Eli Manning had after 3 playoff games.
Yes, I said great quarterback but I should say he's a really terrific QB (great is reserved, sorry).
And by QB, that doesn't mean passing...it means leading the offense. Which he does extremely well, there's no denying it.
I think his passing gets better over time, esp when that offense morphs. I doubt it will stay exactly the same over the next 5 years or so.
I'd expect WR to be upgraded in some way eventually, esp considering the Ravens probably aren't winning a SB.
Boy was I wrong. Wish he were a Giant now.
#1
Between him and Murray - I officially resign as a QB college scout.
And we all know how difficult it is to move up and grab another top QB each draft day.
I thought they'd make the same mistake yesterday when they went down 10-0. They didn't - Jackson ran 16 times, everyone else 19. They passed 24 times.
If they hold their water and stick to their gameplan regardless of what the scoreboard says, they're going to be a tough out for anyone.
And we all know how difficult it is to move up and grab another top QB each draft day.
The running QB is what college is producing. Who are the really good pocket passers in the NFL under age 30?
Something discussed here before so not a new concept, but it’s starting to look like that’s going to happen sooner rather than later.
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that you are one tackle away from losing your starting QB for good. This is not a ding on Jackson, but more the whole concept of the running QB. The more hits he takes, the more likely to get and injury - that's the math.
And we all know how difficult it is to move up and grab another top QB each draft day.
The running QB is what college is producing. Who are the really good pocket passers in the NFL under age 30?
Herbert, Barrow,
I hear what you are saying though, alot more running QBs these days as that is the trend. When RGIII was in his prime, that was the craze, the type of QB to go out and get. But when one or two go down, this will stop.
It takes alot of effort to get a long term solution to the QB and build a team around.
Or you know because he's 1-2 in the playoffs with more INTs than TDs and less than 250 yards passing per game.
I do not think this is the case at all and certainly smacks of unnecessary race baiting. Does anyone here not give Patrick Mahomes or DeShaun Watson credit, who - while athletic - are more traditional qbs?
I think the more likely notion is that folks here have a traditional sense of a pocket qb, and Lamar challenges that conception. He is a great playmaker who brings a unique skillset to the position, one which hasn't been seen in the NFL. He also works within in a program that allows him to flourish. T
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I thought he was Tim Tebow level.
Boy was I wrong. Wish he were a Giant now.
#1
Between him and Murray - I officially resign as a QB college scout.
Didn’t Sy have Nathan Peterman rated higher than Mahomes? It’s tough as hell!
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some here won’t give him the credit he’s due because the color of his skin.
Or you know because he's 1-2 in the playoffs with more INTs than TDs and less than 250 yards passing per game.
Okay, so he's lost the two playoff games he's made in his first two seasons as a QB. Generally, I'd think that a QB who was even capable of getting to the playoffs in their first two years at least shows promise but you do you.
Also, is 246 yards passing per game in the playoffs meaningfully worse than 250 yards passing per game?
Also, he has an equal amount of TDs to INTs in the playoffs. You just have to realize that his rushing TDs count.
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In comment 15118732 Go Terps said:
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Something like 46/0 in the red zone.
He is a fantastic passer. Fantastic.
I'm not sure that just looking at the TD/INT ration really justifies calling him a fantastic passer. Those are out of this world numbers, but he isn't the most refined passer despite his numbers. Take away his legs, and he becomes a mediocre QB.
Isn't that like saying "Take away Peyton Manning's brain and he's a mediocre qb"?
Jackson's running ability and how it opens up the passing game is part of the package. He puts defenses in a bind.
Reminds me off when a buddy dismissed Steph Curry by saying “all he does is shoot 3s” lol. 30 passing TDs per year and a top 5 RB in the same package ... lethal.
That was my impression too. They started off with a great drive before Andrews pulled an Engram and allowed a pick off his hands. And then they simply stopped playing like they usually play.
IMO people shied away a little because of this, but Baltimore saw the tremendous asset you could be and went for it
I'll stay away from race because most of the people who are knocking Jackson in this thread can't evaluate white players either.
That was pretty good.
I will never get over not picking this guy at #2 in 2018. What could have been.
IMO people shied away a little because of this, but Baltimore saw the tremendous asset you could be and went for it
I remember seeing highlights of him at Louisville. To me it was like watching Randy Moss — he just moved with a different level of speed and fluidity. I thought to myself ... he can’t be this good, why isn’t he rated higher by scouts (and I bought the narrative that the NFL would chew him up). Kudos to the Ravens for taking a chance and going all in.
Talking about a 15 year window for anyone is ridiculous. Looking past 5 years when you draft a guy is crazy.
You think Daniel Jones is going to be the Giants QB in 13 years? I wish that were a stock so I could short it.
I always enjoy posts that start with dismissing all objective data in favor of "this isn't how it was done in my day, and I don't like it."
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He is a great overall player in that he’s probably the most gifted runner in the sport, but he is a terrible passer. Spare me the stats, he can throw into the ocean sized holes he often sees. However when a D is sitting back playing the pass he looks like a HS QB on an NFL field. He is not the kind of QB who will have a 15 year window. His window will last until he suffers a major leg injury or the abuse takes it toll on his running ability, much more that it will look like the window of a RB. And that said his window is still small. There is no precedent for a run reliant QB winning a SB in the modern NFL. It’s a pocket passers league at the top level. His D won them the game yesterday. Josh Allen is going to produce points Saturday night. The Bills stopped him from running last year if they do not again the light will once again shine on his inability to win throwing the football.
I always enjoy posts that start with dismissing all objective data in favor of "this isn't how it was done in my day, and I don't like it."
And he’s only THROWN for 2 less TDs than The Great Mahomes the past 2 years (on 300 less attempts). Get off my lawn!
Baltimore's WR's are no better, collectively than the Giants. Marquise Brown managed to wipe the butter from his gloves yesterday - he's their equivalent of Evan Engram.
It won't surprise me if Jackson's career evolves like Vick's did. They could be so lucky.
Every other NFL team passed on him before Balt took him.
That's fine. A lot of people are doubted when they come out of college (I personally wanted LJ on this team, though).
But this is ignoring the fact that Lamar Jackson has NOW played 3 seasons in the NFL, won NFL MVP, was voted best player in the league by his peers, and yet STILL he is not getting respect from various people in the media, on this board, etc. I have no idea why that is.
I disagree with everyone saying "he is a great player, but not a great QB." You don't lead the league in TD passes by accident. He's incredibly accurate in the redzone and short-distance passing, which is way more valuable than anyone gives it credit for. Scoring in the redzone is a HUGE part of WINNING (hence why TC called it "the green zone"). LJ is a gamer with a nose for the endzone with both his arm AND his legs. Everyone gives him shit because he doesn't have an arm like Mahomes or Allen or Rodgers. OK. Well neither does Brees. Brees has always gotten by on deadly accuracy. So why is it when LJ shows deadly accuracy in the redzone (i.e. compressed field) we say "well he's not a real QB because he doesn't have top 5 arm strength." Give me a fucking break.
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He is a great overall player in that he’s probably the most gifted runner in the sport, but he is a terrible passer. Spare me the stats, he can throw into the ocean sized holes he often sees. However when a D is sitting back playing the pass he looks like a HS QB on an NFL field. He is not the kind of QB who will have a 15 year window. His window will last until he suffers a major leg injury or the abuse takes it toll on his running ability, much more that it will look like the window of a RB. And that said his window is still small. There is no precedent for a run reliant QB winning a SB in the modern NFL. It’s a pocket passers league at the top level. His D won them the game yesterday. Josh Allen is going to produce points Saturday night. The Bills stopped him from running last year if they do not again the light will once again shine on his inability to win throwing the football.
I always enjoy posts that start with dismissing all objective data in favor of "this isn't how it was done in my day, and I don't like it."
My eyes are my objective data. The man throws noodles. He runs as much as he does because he NEEDS to. I’ll bookmark this for Saturday night in the cold v a mediocre Bills D. Watch Allen throw and then watch Jackson throw. The Ravens are 1-2 in the playoffs with him going on 1-3. And all 3 losses will have the common team of his inability to throw. He was 11-17 yesterday with an INT and 0 TD passes.
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In comment 15118985 BradberryGlue said:
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He is a great overall player in that he’s probably the most gifted runner in the sport, but he is a terrible passer. Spare me the stats, he can throw into the ocean sized holes he often sees. However when a D is sitting back playing the pass he looks like a HS QB on an NFL field. He is not the kind of QB who will have a 15 year window. His window will last until he suffers a major leg injury or the abuse takes it toll on his running ability, much more that it will look like the window of a RB. And that said his window is still small. There is no precedent for a run reliant QB winning a SB in the modern NFL. It’s a pocket passers league at the top level. His D won them the game yesterday. Josh Allen is going to produce points Saturday night. The Bills stopped him from running last year if they do not again the light will once again shine on his inability to win throwing the football.
I always enjoy posts that start with dismissing all objective data in favor of "this isn't how it was done in my day, and I don't like it."
And he’s only THROWN for 2 less TDs than The Great Mahomes the past 2 years (on 300 less attempts). Get off my lawn!
TDs are a result of moving the football. Baltimore moves the football on the ground, not in the air. They are probably 32nd in passing yards since Jackson took over for Flacco. They move the ball on the ground and the coverages Jackson sees are simplistic as a result.
And he’s only THROWN for 2 less TDs than The Great Mahomes the past 2 years (on 300 less attempts). Get off my lawn!
I really would love to see what all the LJ haters on here have to say about this stat Jim just quoted.
TDs are a result of moving the football. Baltimore moves the football on the ground, not in the air. They are probably 32nd in passing yards since Jackson took over for Flacco. They move the ball on the ground and the coverages Jackson sees are simplistic as a result.
But the reason they move the ball so well on the ground IS BECAUSE OF HIM. The defense has an extra RB to account for on every single play. Why do YOU think they move the ball so well on the ground?
And you cannot sit here tell me LJ deserves no credit for his TD passes simply because the running game always moves them down the field and his TD passes are just a product of that. It takes real skill and accuracy to throw TD passes in the red zone because the defense is all the more compressed.
The Titans have the worst defense in playoffs and the put up 2 TDs. The real story of game was Titans offense puking in themselves and HC clearly coaching scared with that punt on 4th and 2 on the 40.
The real question is next week. Buffalos D is better than Titans, but they are pretty middle of the road. 2 TDs ain’t cutting it against them either.
My eyes are my objective data.
This is priceless. "My opinion is my facts."
I love that we can live in a world now where facts are irrelevant because they don't line up with a predetermined opinion.
Mahomes, Wilson, and Rodgers(to a certain extent) are looking to pass first and only run in necessary. In the case of Mahomes the design runs are infrequent(like Jones). Part of Baltimore's offense is to run Jackson. He is a weapon.
I have come around after thinking he would not workout well in the NFL. You do not want your $25 to $40 mill QB running(see Carson Wentz knee injury). But John Harbaugh has decided he will use Jackson like he was used in college. Jackson is stout enough to handle it and he is faster than most DBs.
Screw Mahomes... can you imagine how people would react if Daniel Jones made that throw?
You'd have people demanding apologies on the spot from anyone who ever doubted whether Jones should be our long term starter.
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My eyes are my objective data.
This is priceless. "My opinion is my facts."
I love that we can live in a world now where facts are irrelevant because they don't line up with a predetermined opinion.
The fact that you don’t want a run first QB is one that I stand behind. i think Daniel Jones has a chance to be a bust and I would not trade Daniel Jones for Lamar Jackson straight up. Mahomes, Rodgers, Wilson, Brady, Watson, Allen these are the type of guys you want at QB. Guys who can beat you with their arm. Jackson is good at what he does, it’s just a style that hasn’t won and won’t win unless it’s the defense driving the success.
There's no question Jackson misses throws, and he's never going to be mistaken for Drew Brees. But the passing stats bear out his quality - 68/18, 7.5 YPA, and especially the 7.2% TDs. Mahomes by comparison is at 6.8% TDs. Jackson is enormously productive as a passer...he doesn't need a lot of passes to produce points.
What UConn said above about cluster drafting QBs is interesting. Obviously the mobility is crucial for Jackson...once that goes, he isn't the same. So if Baltimore is going to pay him, their absolute top priority has to be maintaining his mobility. How do they do that?
Reduce his workload. Prioritize acquiring quality mobile backups and use them to spell Jackson in blowouts, or possibly even entire games against weaker opponents.
This offense is different from what the NFL has been doing. It stands to reason the roster should be constructed differently as well.
Jackson is 30-7 as a starter and his team scores 30 PPG with him. And the defense wins games?
But you wouldn't trade Jones for Jackson, so...
One follow up: on the issue of injury risk, is there any actual correlation between running QBs and injuries? Off the top of my head, can’t really think of one. Tons of pocket QBs get blown up too (maybe because they can’t see it coming/brace themselves) — see Joe Burrow as a recent example. And plenty of running QBs have long relatively healthy careers — see Steve Young, Cunningham, Steve McNair etc.
One follow up: on the issue of injury risk, is there any actual correlation between running QBs and injuries? Off the top of my head, can’t really think of one. Tons of pocket QBs get blown up too (maybe because they can’t see it coming/brace themselves) — see Joe Burrow as a recent example. And plenty of running QBs have long relatively healthy careers — see Steve Young, Cunningham, Steve McNair etc.
RG III
After he became a full time starter, Steve Young missed 38 games
Wentz has missed 10 games
RGIII had his career altered
Darnold has already missed 10 games, and hasn't gotten through any year unhurt
It isn't that the QB's are getting severe injuries, but they are getting dinged to where they miss games along the way.
Vick.
2019: Week 17, rested after clinching top seed
2020: Week 12, COVID
It hits different QB's differently.
Dak has been really dependable and then he missed 11 games this season.
Rodgers has been unscathed in 8 seasons and has missed 18 games concentrated in just a couple seasons
Compare that to the Mannings. Peyton went 16 different seasons not missing a game. Eli went 13 years. Matt Ryan has played 12 full years without injury. Tom Brady missed a season (much like Peyton did), but has played 17 different years not missing a game.
It's only right to question his passing ability. - ( New Window )
It hits different QB's differently.
Dak has been really dependable and then he missed 11 games this season.
Rodgers has been unscathed in 8 seasons and has missed 18 games concentrated in just a couple seasons
Compare that to the Mannings. Peyton went 16 different seasons not missing a game. Eli went 13 years. Matt Ryan has played 12 full years without injury. Tom Brady missed a season (much like Peyton did), but has played 17 different years not missing a game.
Cam was all together different...he ran like a battering ram and took shots in the pocket too.
Jackson does run but gets down smartly it seems. He has taken some shots to the legs but has sustained.
Percentages are against him (in fact all QBs), and the Ravens hope for his health. As does the NFL because he's a very exciting player.
Are you stating this as a matter of fact, or opinion. If the latter you should be more careful in the future.
Throwing the racist label around in such a cavalier fashion , does not forward the cause you seem to be promoting.
When the NFL changes the rules to where a QB just has to throw at targets, then yeah Baltimore should probably get another QB. In the meantime, they're still playing next weekend and a lot of teams with QBs that are better throwing at targets are not.
Lol, you're an idiot. If you're going to say some people on here are racist have something to show for it. If you don't, that's just a incredibly, mind-blowingly, fucking stupid thing to say. It also makes you look like a fucking jerk-off.
It hits different QB's differently.
Dak has been really dependable and then he missed 11 games this season.
Rodgers has been unscathed in 8 seasons and has missed 18 games concentrated in just a couple seasons
Compare that to the Mannings. Peyton went 16 different seasons not missing a game. Eli went 13 years. Matt Ryan has played 12 full years without injury. Tom Brady missed a season (much like Peyton did), but has played 17 different years not missing a game.
The fact that all of the best 35 yrs old plus guys are pocket guys, from Rodgers to Rivers to Brady etc, probably disproves my initial thought there was no correlation.
You've indicated being very confident in Daniel Jones, so here's a quick comp:
Jackson: 64% completions, 7.5 YPA
Jones: 62% completions, 6.6 YPA
So Jackson completes more passes, and gets more out of each pass. Oh, and Jones has thrown 4 more interceptions in 40 fewer attempts.
Jones is a better thrower, but Jackson's a better passer...and that's what matters.
Not necessary at all. I don't remember you saying anything unreasonable.
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has the worst arm talent of any QB to ever play the game. It's only right to question his passing ability. - ( New Window )
You've indicated being very confident in Daniel Jones, so here's a quick comp:
Jackson: 64% completions, 7.5 YPA
Jones: 62% completions, 6.6 YPA
So Jackson completes more passes, and gets more out of each pass. Oh, and Jones has thrown 4 more interceptions in 40 fewer attempts.
Jones is a better thrower, but Jackson's a better passer...and that's what matters.
He has a very awkward throwing style, but it is very effective. Every week he seems to just chuck about 2 or 3 passes up, and loe and behold, it is into a tight window for a completion and he does it scrambling. Then he makes beautiful throws. Cannot be luck.
I have to agree with you.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I can't stop laughing. You'd think this was a joke, literally.
Arm talent - ( New Window )
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has the worst arm talent of any QB to ever play the game. It's only right to question his passing ability. - ( New Window )
You've indicated being very confident in Daniel Jones, so here's a quick comp:
Jackson: 64% completions, 7.5 YPA
Jones: 62% completions, 6.6 YPA
So Jackson completes more passes, and gets more out of each pass. Oh, and Jones has thrown 4 more interceptions in 40 fewer attempts.
Jones is a better thrower, but Jackson's a better passer...and that's what matters.
Also weird to see all this talk about how no one would want Jackson cause eventually injuries will build up and take their toll when our guy has already missed a handful of games.
This is another one I think differently on now. Finding a 10+ year starter is so damn rare and I think too many teams fail trying to go that route. Nothing wrong with 3-5 elite years from a QB, IMO. Whatever happens from there is what it is. If you manage the cap accordingly you become more fungible and less focused on finding the next Eli, Brady, Ben, etc.
Arm talent - ( New Window )
FWIW, I watch way too much of each Combine... ;)
And I remember LJax throwing that day. But he wasn't really ripping through it when he threw. He was pretty lackadaisical that day. So I wouldn't much stock into that number.
I remember a few people who are advocating for him now having reservations about drafting him because of that reason..
I remember a few people who are advocating for him now having reservations about drafting him because of that reason..
I'm one of them. That's a legit cause for concern, but something that can be resolved in an interview, which we obviously aren't privvy to.
If he acted in the combine interview like he does in his post game, I'd have had no issues with him. Guy is a competitor and a gamer.
Yes, LJ still has things to prove, but I don't think it's necessarily because of the type of QB he is.
Times have changed.
It's super hard to just win championships for having the best defense. It was very common 15+ years ago, but now not as much.
Now everything is done to make sure the better QB is given a better chance of winning the game. Sickening.
Where was this love in the '80s and '90s? LOL.
One follow up: on the issue of injury risk, is there any actual correlation between running QBs and injuries? Off the top of my head, can’t really think of one. Tons of pocket QBs get blown up too (maybe because they can’t see it coming/brace themselves) — see Joe Burrow as a recent example. And plenty of running QBs have long relatively healthy careers — see Steve Young, Cunningham, Steve McNair etc.
Steve Young was turned into a pass first QB rather quickly once Montana left town.
Not so sure I agree about Young's health. He was sorta robbed a few years because of concussions.
Wow a ball that travelled 50 whole yards in the air between the hashes! /sarcasm
He doesn't make all the throws. It isn't a franchise-QB caliber NFL arm.
It's apparent when you see him try to throw the deep out to the opposite hash. You won't see many examples because he can't make that throw. Every time I watch him I see him miss a throw that is easy for most NFL QBs. And he's successful because defenses have to respect his speed and agility. But a team that can contain him as a runner is always going to have a great chance to beat him, and that's why I don't believe he'll win a Super Bowl.
And for any jackasses reading this, this is just my own evaluation of Jackson. I'm a big fan, however, of Justin Fields, who I believe has everything you want in a franchise QB from what I've seen so far.
Don’t want to get in the way of the troll other than to remind you how dumb your stance on this is.
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...STILL
Don’t want to get in the way of the troll other than to remind you how dumb your stance on this is.
LOL so bad but not surprising at all, he's not a good QB.
The Ravens were really sloppy tonight on offense and special teams. Jackson was part of the problem, mostly because of one horrible play.
The Ravens were really sloppy tonight on offense and special teams. Jackson was part of the problem, mostly because of one horrible play.
Rarely do defenders square up on Jackson to lay the big wood..he has a slithery natural ability to his game
Last night was a perfect example: eventually these running QBs will run into a Playoff D that makes them look ridiculous. It's happened every year to Jackson so far.
When this guy has to throw without gimmicks he looks like a backup QB on my local JV team.
I am disappointed in the Giants D against BAL though - Graham had no plan. The Bills showed you how to embarrass them. Quarters coverage, both your S's attacking the backfield relentlessly. Put their backfield under siege because they can't hurt you. Great job by the Bills, just like the Chargers a year ago.
I wonder if it would help to move the pocket more?
Also, he needs different weapons - think he could benefit from bigger Mike Evans type receivers. Or even another H-Back type TE.
keep in mind, he's still a very young QB
I’m trying to be nice.
Last night was a perfect example: eventually these running QBs will run into a Playoff D that makes them look ridiculous. It's happened every year to Jackson so far.
When this guy has to throw without gimmicks he looks like a backup QB on my local JV team.
I am disappointed in the Giants D against BAL though - Graham had no plan. The Bills showed you how to embarrass them. Quarters coverage, both your S's attacking the backfield relentlessly. Put their backfield under siege because they can't hurt you. Great job by the Bills, just like the Chargers a year ago.
Exactly, I think he's actually gotten worse every year in the playoffs which I didn't think was possible. He's awful.