if true, could mean trouble brewing in Miami...
"Miami Herald columnist Armando Salguero spoke to three Dolphins players who spoke anonymously about Tagovailoa and the organization’s decision to name him the starter for 2021, and they expressed doubt about Tagovailoa’s overall talent and his ability to develop into what the team needs him to be: a top-tier quarterback."
I haven't heard or seen anything that the Giants players are not on board with Jones...
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It's strange that you find a counter-balance with teams not named the Giants, but when it comes to us, you have no such view.
I doubt if there was a thread about Giant players being unhappy with Jones that you'd have any comment about the flip side. Heck, it would probably just turn into a rant about ownership fucking things up again!
I don't know anything about this guy but in my experience, there's very little deliberate lying by reporters at professional news outlets — far less than some in the public seem to think. The job would be a helluva lot easier if you could make stuff up; in fact, it's a demanding job because you can't. You spend a lot of time and energy cultivating relationships with sources, checking in with them, and running down leads.
Yes, lying happens occasionally. We know about the very public scandals. But the fact those were scandals tells you how unusual it is.
However: As far as I know, the reporter I knew who made up quotes was getting away with it. And, I have to say, I have seen reporters spin very small out-of-context bits of an interview into big sensational stories that got a ton of attention.
Occam's razor: Some guys said that to this columnist, and he's repeating it.
But he didn't say it's a bunch of guys, or that it's a big faction. Three guys isn't a lot. Three guys who didn't go on the record. But three guys who would voice this concern to him. That is significant.
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This guy just makes things up.
I've worked with a lot of reporters from all over the world. Making things up is rare, and the one person I knew who did it was resented and disliked by other reporters. That person would embellish interviews, not make up whole controversies.
I don't know anything about this guy but in my experience, there's very little deliberate lying by reporters at professional news outlets — far less than some in the public seem to think. The job would be a helluva lot easier if you could make stuff up; in fact, it's a demanding job because you can't. You spend a lot of time and energy cultivating relationships with sources, checking in with them, and running down leads.
Yes, lying happens occasionally. We know about the very public scandals. But the fact those were scandals tells you how unusual it is.
However: As far as I know, the reporter I knew who made up quotes was getting away with it. And, I have to say, I have seen reporters spin very small out-of-context bits of an interview into big sensational stories that got a ton of attention.
Occam's razor: Some guys said that to this columnist, and he's repeating it.
But he didn't say it's a bunch of guys, or that it's a big faction. Three guys isn't a lot. Three guys who didn't go on the record. But three guys who would voice this concern to him. That is significant.
I agree with all of this, as well as the comment about getting opinions from 60+ people.
I'm sure we all have coworkers that you look at say, "How does THAT guy have a job here?" Why should the NFL be any different?
The other QB of note on that roster - Ryan Fitzpatrick - isn't exactly a top-tier QB. Maybe they're just being honest, Tua will be an average QB in this league.
Dolphins may be sending this message out not as some sort of push for Watson but to get someone 4 and lower to offer up more picks to move to 3. They have created the threat (implied or real) that they may take a QB at 3.
There are four prospects in this draft better than Tua, IMV. So this needs to be a serious evaluation.
He didn't. He was worse. Terps is right, I never got it with him. Better than Hurts, yes.
Whatever. Hope he has a good career.
The next year they draft Tua, he's the answer.
Now they may look QB for the 3rd consecutive year so that's the answer?
That's QB hell.
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He didn't. He was worse. Terps is right, I never got it with him. Better than Hurts, yes.
Whatever. Hope he has a good career.
Tua was better than Jones by a bit. Jones was horrendous.
The next year they draft Tua, he's the answer.
Now they may look QB for the 3rd consecutive year so that's the answer?
That's QB hell.
No it isn't. They can move on easily.
QB hell is paying the wrong guy a second contract. Huge red flags for the Giants right now with Jones. That would be qb hell.
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1st they trade for Rosen, he's the answer.
The next year they draft Tua, he's the answer.
Now they may look QB for the 3rd consecutive year so that's the answer?
That's QB hell.
No it isn't. They can move on easily.
QB hell is paying the wrong guy a second contract. Huge red flags for the Giants right now with Jones. That would be qb hell.
It’s absolutely amazing how much slack that you give every other team in the league for continuing to blow first round picks year after year on failed QBs. Though it’s not surprising consistency has never been a strong suit of yours.
At a time when a lot of different players, including all 4 of the top OTs, were still being tossed around by numerous national and local reporters as the likely pick.
Recall a thread on his scoop and some BBI posters mocking him because how would a Miami reporter know much of anything about the NY Giants.
Just saying.
Yet we have had some posters act like we'll be looking for a QB for the next decade.
Then again - we also had people obsess over a contract given to Stewart for the better part of a year too - so maybe it is just a lot of reactionary and often illogical bullshit.
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In comment 15121628 Stan in LA said:
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1st they trade for Rosen, he's the answer.
The next year they draft Tua, he's the answer.
Now they may look QB for the 3rd consecutive year so that's the answer?
That's QB hell.
No it isn't. They can move on easily.
QB hell is paying the wrong guy a second contract. Huge red flags for the Giants right now with Jones. That would be qb hell.
It’s absolutely amazing how much slack that you give every other team in the league for continuing to blow first round picks year after year on failed QBs. Though it’s not surprising consistency has never been a strong suit of yours.
Who's cutting them slack? They made a big mistake and blew the pick. Now we'll see if they double down on the mistake and eschew possible alternatives (like the Giants appear to be doing).
It's also worth mentioning the Dolphins climbed out of their home to go 10-6 this season, while the Giants continue to wallow in the depths.
Consistency has been a strong suit of yours, no doubt.
By the way - a quick Google search shows that Salguero has articles leading up to the draft that the Giants were going to take Thomas, that the Dolphins were going to take him, that Carolina was going to take him and that Cleveland was going to take him.
In fact, in quite a few, he calls himself "GM Mondo" who absolutely loves Thomas.
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In comment 15121453 Greg from LI said:
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He didn't. He was worse. Terps is right, I never got it with him. Better than Hurts, yes.
Whatever. Hope he has a good career.
Tua was better than Jones by a bit. Jones was horrendous.
No he wasn't. Had Fitz stayed at QB, the Dolphins make the playoffs. Flores screwed up. Tua was awful anytime I was watched a Dolphins game.
His athletic ability looks average, so does his arm. Injury prone. I honestly don’t see him as a top talent at all.
I see his career arc flaming out like Mariota.
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In comment 15121620 section125 said:
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In comment 15121453 Greg from LI said:
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He didn't. He was worse. Terps is right, I never got it with him. Better than Hurts, yes.
Whatever. Hope he has a good career.
Tua was better than Jones by a bit. Jones was horrendous.
No he wasn't. Had Fitz stayed at QB, the Dolphins make the playoffs. Flores screwed up. Tua was awful anytime I was watched a Dolphins game.
The numbers say otherwise.
I agree Tua stunk, but Jones was even worse. Go look at the pro football reference page. It's all there.
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In comment 15121706 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15121628 Stan in LA said:
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1st they trade for Rosen, he's the answer.
The next year they draft Tua, he's the answer.
Now they may look QB for the 3rd consecutive year so that's the answer?
That's QB hell.
No it isn't. They can move on easily.
QB hell is paying the wrong guy a second contract. Huge red flags for the Giants right now with Jones. That would be qb hell.
It’s absolutely amazing how much slack that you give every other team in the league for continuing to blow first round picks year after year on failed QBs. Though it’s not surprising consistency has never been a strong suit of yours.
Who's cutting them slack? They made a big mistake and blew the pick. Now we'll see if they double down on the mistake and eschew possible alternatives (like the Giants appear to be doing).
It's also worth mentioning the Dolphins climbed out of their home to go 10-6 this season, while the Giants continue to wallow in the depths.
Consistency has been a strong suit of yours, no doubt.
Thanks. I’m glad you noticed that I will consistently call your bullshit. There are some on here that notice how much you move goal posts. There are others that idolize you because you you liked Lamar. You’ve gotten a ton of mileage out of that one. Oh, and you didn’t like Odell because he was a meanie. So you’re a genius for that too.
The smart ones see right through you. Hell, you’ve admitted in the past that you don’t even watch much football, especially college games. Yet here you are, constantly pretending you’re the smartest guy in the room. I find it comical. It’s entertaining really.
I agree Tua stunk, but Jones was even worse. Go look at the pro football reference page. It's all there.
No I am not going to look it up. Tua stunk, period. Jones had some bad games including Tampa where I was ready to move on. He had some good games and not enough. But I would rather have Jones than Tua.
So you would rather have Tua over Jones...ok fine. Nothing more to discuss
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I agree Tua stunk, but Jones was even worse. Go look at the pro football reference page. It's all there.
No I am not going to look it up. Tua stunk, period. Jones had some bad games including Tampa where I was ready to move on. He had some good games and not enough. But I would rather have Jones than Tua.
So you would rather have Tua over Jones...ok fine. Nothing more to discuss
You don't want to be better informed? Why?
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Early in the morning, NFL Network’s Ian Rapoport reported that the Lions have been engaged with multiple teams about trading down from the No. 3 spot, and that talks have heated up in the past 24 hours. Later, Armando Salguero of the Miami Herald reported that the Lions have actually already made plans to trade with the Giants or Dolphins, who hold the No. 4 (New York) and No. 5 (Miami) picks in the first round. Salguero did caution that no deal has been finalized yet but stated that they have a “degree of confidence they will be able to trade their pick.”
By the way - a quick Google search shows that Salguero has articles leading up to the draft that the Giants were going to take Thomas, that the Dolphins were going to take him, that Carolina was going to take him and that Cleveland was going to take him.
In fact, in quite a few, he calls himself "GM Mondo" who absolutely loves Thomas.
Well he was spot on, the Giants took him. And the others couldn’t.
Seems like you remember the thread on him, huh?
Yet we have had some posters act like we'll be looking for a QB for the next decade.
Then again - we also had people obsess over a contract given to Stewart for the better part of a year too - so maybe it is just a lot of reactionary and often illogical bullshit.
We also have guys that think losing is not indicative of the GM.
Posters say the damned things.
Your are about as good with the terminology of being spot on as you are at staying banned.
Your are about as good with the terminology of being spot on as you are at staying banned.
Huh? That makes a lot of sense.
Oh and by the way the item you posted says the Miami reporter cautioned...no deal has been finalized.
So there’s, you know...that.
You don't want to be better informed? Why?
Better informed by what? Some freaking half baked stats that don't tell the story? Jones had no oline for 6 to 8 games. He had no threatening receivers all year. He had 6 passes tipped into INTs from Engram(think it was six, forgive me if it was a couple less). He had a game lost because the same guy dropped a pass that would have ended the game(or was it two games).
I get it, you don't like him. Never have, never will.
I watch games. I see what I see. You are right in that he can do better and he has to do better. He can do better when he gets a couple of guys that can catch the balls thrown to them. He can do better when he has his best offensive player back on the field(who also will do better now that the line opens gapping holes.)
If he does not improve next year I will say you were right. If Jones didn't have a good first year, you would have a stronger position and I might be agreeing with you right now. The fumbling was ridiculous but he improved that. He didn't forget how to throw the ball. Slayton was hurt, Shepard was out 3 games, Tate was out numerous games and we all agree Engram is practically useless.
Whatever, it is pointless to discuss.
That'd be crazy wouldn't it. Hou would have to get a Herschel Walker haul there.
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In comment 15121704 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15121620 section125 said:
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In comment 15121453 Greg from LI said:
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He didn't. He was worse. Terps is right, I never got it with him. Better than Hurts, yes.
Whatever. Hope he has a good career.
Tua was better than Jones by a bit. Jones was horrendous.
No he wasn't. Had Fitz stayed at QB, the Dolphins make the playoffs. Flores screwed up. Tua was awful anytime I was watched a Dolphins game.
The numbers say otherwise.
I agree Tua stunk, but Jones was even worse. Go look at the pro football reference page. It's all there.
Tua was much better than Jones and I guarantee 31 out of 32 GMs in the NFL would take Tua over Jones.
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You don't want to be better informed? Why?
Better informed by what? Some freaking half baked stats that don't tell the story? Jones had no oline for 6 to 8 games. He had no threatening receivers all year. He had 6 passes tipped into INTs from Engram(think it was six, forgive me if it was a couple less). He had a game lost because the same guy dropped a pass that would have ended the game(or was it two games).
I get it, you don't like him. Never have, never will.
I watch games. I see what I see. You are right in that he can do better and he has to do better. He can do better when he gets a couple of guys that can catch the balls thrown to them. He can do better when he has his best offensive player back on the field(who also will do better now that the line opens gapping holes.)
If he does not improve next year I will say you were right. If Jones didn't have a good first year, you would have a stronger position and I might be agreeing with you right now. The fumbling was ridiculous but he improved that. He didn't forget how to throw the ball. Slayton was hurt, Shepard was out 3 games, Tate was out numerous games and we all agree Engram is practically useless.
Whatever, it is pointless to discuss.
Half baked stats? I'm not pointing you to a subjective source. I'm just suggesting you look at their total production and assess objectively. You aren't interested, though.
"I see what I see" is an accurate way of putting it.
Half baked stats? I'm not pointing you to a subjective source. I'm just suggesting you look at their total production and assess objectively. You aren't interested, though.
"I see what I see" is an accurate way of putting it.
And you ignore the reasons...name one thing I said about the players around him this year that is wrong.
Tua was much better than Jones and I guarantee 31 out of 32 GMs in the NFL would take Tua over Jones.
Bullshit
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1st they trade for Rosen, he's the answer.
The next year they draft Tua, he's the answer.
Now they may look QB for the 3rd consecutive year so that's the answer?
That's QB hell.
No it isn't. They can move on easily.
QB hell is paying the wrong guy a second contract. Huge red flags for the Giants right now with Jones. That would be qb hell.
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Half baked stats? I'm not pointing you to a subjective source. I'm just suggesting you look at their total production and assess objectively. You aren't interested, though.
"I see what I see" is an accurate way of putting it.
And you ignore the reasons...name one thing I said about the players around him this year that is wrong.
You think Tua (or anyone else) had no adversity? Tua was a rookie in a COVID off-season in a mediocre offense and went 6-3 as a starter.
I'm not ignoring what else went on around Jones. I'm telling you that, even in that context, he was horrible. That is what is borne out by the data you refuse to look at. I know the truth is hard to take, but ignoring it won't make it go away.
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Tua was much better than Jones and I guarantee 31 out of 32 GMs in the NFL would take Tua over Jones.
Bullshit
Producer just follows Terps around and repeats what he says, it's really weird.
No. The Dolphins beat the Rams like that though.
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and ask for opinions, you are bound to find some differences of opinion. I am sure there are other people in that locker room who believe Tua is a fine young man with lots of promise.
Pot. Meet kettle
It's strange that you find a counter-balance with teams not named the Giants, but when it comes to us, you have no such view.
I doubt if there was a thread about Giant players being unhappy with Jones that you'd have any comment about the flip side. Heck, it would probably just turn into a rant about ownership fucking things up again!
They left the team, Wilson went on to be great.
No. The Dolphins beat the Rams like that though.
You gonna give him props for almost beating the Chiefs with no running game, throwing for over 300 yards and 2 TDs with Lynn Bowden as his top WR?
Give the kid time.
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Daniel Jones have won if he went 12-22, 93 yards, a lost fumble and one TD drive? 145 total yards on offense. Longest drive was 33 yards.
No. The Dolphins beat the Rams like that though.
are you really gonna hold not being able to light up the Rams defense against Tua? That defense has been lights out this year. He didn’t even have Devante Parker who is his only legitimate weapon! And Giants beat the Seahawks with Colt McCoy giving a similar performance. You aren’t gonna win every game in the NFL the same.
You gonna give him props for almost beating the Chiefs with no running game, throwing for over 300 yards and 2 TDs with Lynn Bowden as his top WR?
Give the kid time.
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In comment 15121704 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15121620 section125 said:
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In comment 15121453 Greg from LI said:
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He didn't. He was worse. Terps is right, I never got it with him. Better than Hurts, yes.
Whatever. Hope he has a good career.
Tua was better than Jones by a bit. Jones was horrendous.
No he wasn't. Had Fitz stayed at QB, the Dolphins make the playoffs. Flores screwed up. Tua was awful anytime I was watched a Dolphins game.
The numbers say otherwise.
I agree Tua stunk, but Jones was even worse. Go look at the pro football reference page. It's all there.
In his first year under Shurmur Jones was impressive before regressing under Garrett. When has Tua impressed anybody ?
That’s an extreme oversimplification. Of course wins matter but “drama” happens and prevents wins, we see it all the time. I don’t know why people think distractions don’t exist. You are talking about 50+ guys all with different personalities and making wildly different amounts of money. Jealousy, egos, etc are all issues on every team and how it’s handled often leads to cohesion or dysfunction.
The giants example doesn’t make sense. We overachieved and the games we lost weren’t due to turmoil amongst the players - they just didn’t have the horses. When we won we felt unity because our HC exudes how important that is with every fiber of his being.
In sum, Tua came in with a lot of hype and didn’t really do much. Wasn’t awful but wasn’t good either. I never understood the “tank for tua” crap we read on BBI, never liked his size/injury history and I suspect that will impact his pro career. He’s a good kid though so I hope he does well, but I wouldn’t feel confident if I was a Dolphins fan.
I would imagine that the mental aspect of quarterbacking comes later in the evolutionary process for young signal callers so I wouldn't be so quick to draw conclusions after nine starting assignments.
With that said, Tua's production wasn't as dreadful as some would lead you to believe. If I told you that a 22 year old quarterback went 6-3 with an 11:5 ratio and 1800 yards to go along with a 64% completion percentage and a few scores on the ground in his first nine starts, I think most of us would consider it a tentatively positive sign for things to come.
If I added further context that the player was about a year removed from major surgery, operated under an OC that explicitly implemented a sheltered playbook, and had a supporting cast of three rookie starting lineman and perhaps the worst collection of skill players in the NFL...you'd probably be even more impressed with that production. Tua certainly did not light the NFL on fire and he was very reliant on check downs but prior to the Buffalo game to end the season you saw a QB that protected the ball (11:2 at that point) and played within the confines of a conservative system.
Was Justin Herbert better? Of course (although Tua did outplay him and beat him in their matchup this season), I don't think many would argue that Herbert would go higher in a redraft. However, Herberts extraordinary rookie success isn't a death knell for other QBs that didn't ascend as rapidly.
Was Justin Herbert better? Of course (although Tua did outplay him and beat him in their matchup this season), I don't think many would argue that Herbert would go higher in a redraft.
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In comment 15121732 section125 said:
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In comment 15121704 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15121620 section125 said:
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In comment 15121453 Greg from LI said:
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He didn't. He was worse. Terps is right, I never got it with him. Better than Hurts, yes.
Whatever. Hope he has a good career.
Tua was better than Jones by a bit. Jones was horrendous.
No he wasn't. Had Fitz stayed at QB, the Dolphins make the playoffs. Flores screwed up. Tua was awful anytime I was watched a Dolphins game.
The numbers say otherwise.
I agree Tua stunk, but Jones was even worse. Go look at the pro football reference page. It's all there.
In his first year under Shurmur Jones was impressive before regressing under Garrett. When has Tua impressed anybody ?
I guess that depends on your definition of impressive. I don't agree.
I think Tua had a far superior year to Jones - I watched all of Jones' starts other than the first half of AZ and about 4 of Tua's.
Greg Cosell was recently evaluating Tua's year and said the Dolphins really dummied down the offense to keep it simple. Give him one quick read and hopefully get the short, easy completion. Which explains his very underwhelming 6.3 YPA.
Thinks his arm talent is still very questionable.
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The knock on Tua is that he didn't flash elite skills. That's a fair point. I don't understand how anyone could say he was objectively bad. His numbers overall were okay. Not great or anything, but okay for a rookie starter in an offense fairly light on talent.
Greg Cosell was recently evaluating Tua's year and said the Dolphins really dummied down the offense to keep it simple. Give him one quick read and hopefully get the short, easy completion. Which explains his very underwhelming 6.3 YPA.
Thinks his arm talent is still very questionable.
I thought of Chad Pennington watching Tua. Was his arm better pre-injury?
Recall, coming out of Bama one of Tua's strengths was supposed to be an accurate deep ball and that part of his game was nowhere to be found this year. Now part of this is because there's a difference in being "college open" and "NFL open" and Tua certainly needs to adjust to this after having benefited from talent mismatches every Saturday at Bama. The putrid supporting cast in Miami further compounded this issue and a big talking point this season was Fitz telling Tua to force the ball to players even if they don't appear open (hence why Fitz is more of a boom/bust QB). As mentioned, he doesn't have the Allen or Herbert arm and he's been coached to avoid turnovers so I have to believe it manifested itself in a complete lack of risk taking down the field. I also suspect play design intentionally limited his opportunities to make plays. Interestingly enough, his most impressive flashes come after the called play broke down and he was improvising.
Now the cynic could also say that the strict training wheels are an indictment of his talent or perhaps what the staff his limitations to be but the word from the staff and front-office has been consistent in their support so far. I guess time will tell.
The draft is a crapshoot at any position; guys overperform and underperform their draft position all the time. It's not an exact science. Everybody misses on picks; everybody gets lucky occasionally in the late rounds or UDFA. The better GMs are more consistent but they still miss.
QB is even more of a crapshoot. Guys who look like world-beaters in college don't amount to anything in the NFL. Sometimes you get Ryan Leaf, sometimes you get Josh Allen, sometimes you get RGIII (who looked like a star until he didn't).