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I don’t believe TEs are difference makers

cosmicj : 1/15/2021 8:54 am
I don’t think even the very good TEs make much of a difference in building contending teams. Let me know if you agree. If you don’t, convince me - I have an open mind.
Give me a yesr  
Jolly Blue Giant : 1/15/2021 8:56 am : link
When the giants were competitive without an above average TE. Boss, Ballard, Shockey, Bravaro, Cross.....Even when we had Bennett we were competitive.
Tony Gonzalez in his prime  
Big Blue '56 : 1/15/2021 8:57 am : link
was a difference-maker, imv
Jason Witten vs NYG - forever!  
KeoweeFan : 1/15/2021 8:58 am : link
'Nuf said!
A good or better TE  
JonC : 1/15/2021 8:58 am : link
tends to make a QBs life easier as a pass catcher, safety valve, edge/inline blocker, and as a red zone threat.
cosmicj  
M.S. : 1/15/2021 9:03 am : link

Jason Witten.
Bavaria was a huge part of our offense  
johnnyb : 1/15/2021 9:05 am : link
in his prime. Kielce, To t Gonzalez, Kellen Winslow ( not Jr. ), Shockley to name a few that are or were special.

But, to your point, teams have won without a signature TE. More common for a WR to be the difference maker. Supply of TEs limited as well.
RE: Tony Gonzalez in his prime  
cosmicj : 1/15/2021 9:06 am : link
In comment 15123175 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
was a difference-maker, imv
Ok, so Gonzalez is one of the best TEs in history and he didn’t win a playoff game until he was 36. I admit that included a tough playoff loss in 2004 against a very good Colts team, but Gonzalez never even played in a conference championship. Even with his absolute excellence in Kansas City, he never was part of a contender there.
Jason Witten  
cosmicj : 1/15/2021 9:09 am : link
I know we all have nightmares about him as Giants fans but Witten never played in a conference championship and didn’t catch a TD in his first seven playoff appearances.
It seems you don't understand the significance  
Giantology : 1/15/2021 9:10 am : link
of what a healthy, difference maker at TE can do for an offense. Probably because it has been so long since NYG has had something resembling that.
Giantology  
cosmicj : 1/15/2021 9:10 am : link
Is there an argument in your post somewhere? I watch other teams, too.
And if your only argument is  
Giantology : 1/15/2021 9:12 am : link
Some of these TEs don't have huge stats, lots of playoff appearances or championships, then, I don't know what to tell you. Difference making is not solely counted on the stat sheet and trophy case.
If you look at the whole offense  
chuckydee9 : 1/15/2021 9:14 am : link
I think the QB is definetly more important. All 5 OL positions, the WRs are bigger difference makers after that TEs and RBs.. Obviously Top notch talent are diffence makers at TE as with any other position but on average give me better center over a better TE or a better WR over a better TE..
Again, I don’t see an argument,  
cosmicj : 1/15/2021 9:15 am : link
Except that football achievement shouldn’t be measured in stats or actually winning important games, but something else, antimatter or team spirit or something.
Chucky  
cosmicj : 1/15/2021 9:16 am : link
Yes, that’s my view, too, including your rank ordering.
RE: Again, I don’t see an argument,  
Giantology : 1/15/2021 9:16 am : link
In comment 15123215 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Except that football achievement shouldn’t be measured in stats or actually winning important games, but something else, antimatter or team spirit or something.


I don't see a real argument that a TE can't be a difference maker. Compare a season of Kevin Boss vs. Brandon Myers. There's a big difference.
I love how you guys are naming giants.  
Tuckrule : 1/15/2021 9:18 am : link
We haven’t had many diff makers at tight end.

Kelce
Graham prime
Cook
Witten
Tony G
Gronk
Kittle
Waller

You want to keep going ? A good tight end changes around an entire offense. Occupies safeties and linebackers, creates mismatches oh and it helps when they can block in the run game.

I’ll start a thread. “I don’t think a QB is a difference maker. I’m open to listening”
Used properly  
NoPeanutz : 1/15/2021 9:22 am : link
of course a TE could be a difference maker. As opposed to, IMO, a great OLineman that is a difference maker, regardless of how they are used.
To start with, how about as a blocker  
BillT : 1/15/2021 9:23 am : link
Which is at least half of a TE's job. Both run and pass blocking. A good TE can make a big difference in both these areas. Imagine Barkley with daylight to run to. And they have to be accounted for in the passing game as well. And their size makes them good Red Zone targets. They don't make the kind of headline grabbing news that WR do, no. Doesn't mean they don't make a difference. Even maybe a big difference.
do you get difference makers at 11  
Chip : 1/15/2021 9:24 am : link
I don't think so unless you get lucky.
The Eagles aren't winning the  
Dnew15 : 1/15/2021 9:26 am : link
Super Bowl without Zach Ertz.

THe 49ers wouldn't have made it to the Super Bowl without George Kittle.

The Pats had Gronk.

The Chiefs have Kelce.

I think it's more of anomaly teams are successful b/c of the TE than in spite of it.
TE's have traditionally been the security blanket for the QB  
rasbutant : 1/15/2021 9:28 am : link
Engram just happens to be the complete opposite.

A good TE catches everything thrown his way, isn't afraid to go up the seam, can find the soft spot in zone, and ideally can win the 50/50 balls. While also adding in pass protection.

Many 1st round TE's don't live up to their draft position though.

Even Eric Ebron, who has had a decent career, picked #10, before guys like......Aaron Donald, Odell Beckham, Jr., Kyle Fuller, Zack Martin, Taylor Lewan, Ryan Shazier, C.J. Mosley. I would think Detroit would like a do over on that one.

In today's game, it seems to me that a lot of the role of TE has moved to the small, quick twitch, slot WR's. I think maybe the Pat's started this trend??



Link - ( New Window )
A good two way TE allows you to be extremely  
bigbluescot : 1/15/2021 9:29 am : link
formation and scheme versatile. How Shanahan uses Kittle and the Fullback to get the defenses to declare and mess with their rules is very clever, and one of the things along with their running scheme which makes that offense go.
If Evan engram catches a few more balls this season  
mattlawson : 1/15/2021 9:33 am : link
This thread doesn’t exist. That right there is what you call a difference maker
From the 50 s to now  
joeinpa : 1/15/2021 9:34 am : link
Aaron Thomas, Bob Tucker, Mark Bavaro, J Shockey, seemed like differences makers.

I think a good TE  
Daniel in MI : 1/15/2021 9:37 am : link
Is part of a versatile, effective O. It’s not always about TDs, it’s about keeping the chains moving. A good TE is a weapon on 3rd down. Plus adding mid level receptions down the seam that can create chunk plays. There are some that are also very good red zone targets. And of course, their blocking is key as de facto members of the OL.
RE: If Evan engram catches a few more balls this season  
islander1 : 1/15/2021 9:39 am : link
In comment 15123251 mattlawson said:
Quote:
This thread doesn’t exist. That right there is what you call a difference maker


Although I fundamentally agree with cosmic, this other salient point is accurate.
RE: Give me a yesr  
fanoftheteam : 1/15/2021 9:46 am : link
In comment 15123172 Jolly Blue Giant said:
Quote:
When the giants were competitive without an above average TE. Boss, Ballard, Shockey, Bravaro, Cross.....Even when we had Bennett we were competitive.


Boss/Ballard above average?
Tell you what ... give me Jeremy Ruckert in the 4th this draft  
Spider56 : 1/15/2021 9:55 am : link
and let’s talk again in a year or 2 ... a good 2 way TE is a huge difference maker and there’s a long list of SB names to prove it.
Does a very good TE make much of a difference in building  
LBH15 : 1/15/2021 9:58 am : link
a contending team?

A bit of an odd Original Post.

I would think the answer is yes, they can make a difference but are not a requirement.

If you want to relate it to current NYG situation, I would suggest to you that a good TE would make a very big difference. We have a team with average at best WRs, a young QB struggling to find reliable target in the passing game, and particularly one that can play above the rim in the end zone so the team can score more points.

Throw in the fact the Giants like to scheme their rushing plays with in-line blockers on the move, and a good two-way TE could make a world of difference.

Cosmic - why do you think not?
Ozzie Newsome  
TC : 1/15/2021 10:00 am : link
.
Tight Ends are 1st down makers!  
edavisiii : 1/15/2021 10:03 am : link
On 3rd down and 7 a good tight end who can find open holes in a zone or post up a linebacker in a 1 on 1 is a great asset. Difference maker? I don't know. I am not in the "cut Engram Crowd" But I think he would be a lot more effective if he was paired with a traditional TE and we could use Engram as more of an H-Back Type. Moving him around like NE moved Aaron Hernandez when paired with Gronk would be ideal. If fact, I think Engram as a full back in certain situations would work great. He is biger than most fullbacks, he is great at blocking linebackers and he would be a nightmare matchup coming out of the backfield
TE  
stretch234 : 1/15/2021 10:09 am : link
TE has changed - this notion that the top TE block is a myth. Kelce is out in the pattern all the time. Waller is out in the pattern all the time. Ertz was in the pattern.

Top TE are used on the move in the passing game much more than in the past.

There are not 5 guys in the league today who can block and catch

Gronk, Kelce, Kittle, Ertz

If it was easy to find these guys, everyone would have them. They are not easy to find
RE: Tight Ends are 1st down makers!  
markky : 1/15/2021 10:20 am : link
In comment 15123300 edavisiii said:
Quote:
On 3rd down and 7 a good tight end who can find open holes in a zone or post up a linebacker in a 1 on 1 is a great asset. Difference maker? I don't know. I am not in the "cut Engram Crowd" But I think he would be a lot more effective if he was paired with a traditional TE and we could use Engram as more of an H-Back Type. Moving him around like NE moved Aaron Hernandez when paired with Gronk would be ideal. If fact, I think Engram as a full back in certain situations would work great. He is biger than most fullbacks, he is great at blocking linebackers and he would be a nightmare matchup coming out of the backfield


this is exactly where TEs are difference makers: extending drives. they do it by blocking on first down runs and finding holes in the defense on 3rd and long. a two way TE can make the offense much more efficient.

the question is at 11 do you take the 3rd best WR or the best TE. i do think we'll find a difference maker at 11.

one thing about being a bad team is that the delta between the talents of the incumbent and the replacement is usually greater than that of a good team. i expect us to fix a couple of big holes tis offseason and be at least .500 next year. playoffs in 2022 at the latest.
Some good comments on this thread  
cosmicj : 1/15/2021 10:32 am : link
I appreciate the serious arguments about why they are important.

Here's one stat-driven way of looking at it. Let's take Jason Witten, primarily a pass catcher rather than a blocker and generally an excellent TE.

He caught on average 71% of his targets over his career and 7.6 yards per target. That completion percentage is slightly above what a good QB in this period averages. Tony Romo's lifetime completion percentage is 65%, for example. and an average yards per attempt of 7.9 yards. Witten was targeted roughly 120x per season in his prime, so he helped Tony Romo complete maybe 7-8 extra passes over the course of a season vs an average alternative target, with a mild negative in yardage (maybe negative 50 yards over the course of a season).

Let's take a mid-level WR like Terrance Williams, to stick with the same offensive context. Williams, a decent but not exceptional WR, caught 62% of his targets for 9.0 yards per target in his Cowboys career. Williams was targeted less often than Witten, maybe 80-90x per season in the middle 2010s, and passing to him resulted in 3-4 incompletions than Romo's average per season but also added roughly 125-150 yards total in passing yardage.

So which has more impact on the passing offense? A HoF level TE like Witten or a decent starting WR like Williams? The answer isn't obvious to me.

So to get this out of the way: yes, I know there are many things that a TE does that are not statistically measurable, at least easy. And I know my analysis above is simplistic. But the above - which all comes from the same set so it should be comparable - just quantifies my intuition about the TE position.

A Hall of Famer like Witten or an average starting WR? I'd rather have Witten, sure, but they don't have monumental differences in impact.
Cosmic.....the Boys offense under Garrett forces lots of attention  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/15/2021 10:42 am : link
to the tight end and run game and than uses that to get the WRs deep. They pretty much had two WRs in the top 10 yards per catch year in and year out because of this. Slayton could be excellent in this role.
I disagree  
Jay on the Island : 1/15/2021 10:45 am : link
For many years Gronk, Tony Gonzalez, etc didn't have great WR's on their teams but their offenses still performed well because of them. Elite TE's create mismatch problems and open things up for the WR's as so much attention is payed to the TE. If the Giants added Pitts in round 1 and Barkley returned to form it would make life so much easier for the Giants WR's because defenses need to focus on those two.
Zeke  
cosmicj : 1/15/2021 10:45 am : link
I think all three of the Giants TEs suck and need to be replaced. The offense would greatly benefit from some even very average talent at that position group.

This post was really more motivated by the prospect of drafting Pitts. Would Pitts, who I think is an exceptional prospect, really get us closer to a Lombardi trophy? Eh.
Kelce and Gronk  
Metnut : 1/15/2021 10:46 am : link
are/were key parts to the best teams of the 2010s. Even when the PatS lost to the Eagles, the Eagles had big games from Ertz in the NFC Title Game and the Super Bowl.
Guess I will disagree  
Boatie Warrant : 1/15/2021 10:50 am : link
I think A good TE makes a big impact on a team.

Winslow, Gonzalez, Gates, Gronkowski, Ditka, Sharpe, Newsome, Witten, Graham.....

I would say a Good/Great makes a huge difference especially when it comes to moving the chains and keeping the ball.
Gronk  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/15/2021 11:01 am : link
With him on the team, Pats could get by with small, shifty WRs.Not sure how you can think that a special TE isn't a difference maker. There just aren't enough of the special ones.
Hey even bad TEs are difference makers  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/15/2021 11:05 am : link
Engram lost us two or three games with his swiss cheese act
Now...  
Dnew15 : 1/15/2021 11:12 am : link
here's what I will say... I don't think that TEs come into the NFL make a significant impact right away.

It seems that it takes TEs a few years to acclimate to the league and figure things out - maybe more than any other position on the field.

I can't remember the exact number  
Go Terps : 1/15/2021 11:22 am : link
But I believe in 2019 passing out of 12 personnel was over a full yard more efficient than passing out of 11. That would be an argument in favor of having strong two way TEs.
RE: I can't remember the exact number  
Dnew15 : 1/15/2021 11:31 am : link
In comment 15123438 Go Terps said:
Quote:
But I believe in 2019 passing out of 12 personnel was over a full yard more efficient than passing out of 11. That would be an argument in favor of having strong two way TEs.


Interesting stat - that would explain why McAdoo's offense was a wreck.
I skipped over a number of posts so maybe  
jvm52106 : 1/15/2021 11:32 am : link
I am about to say what has been mentioned but, a true difference maker at TE isn't about numbers per se. Having a True 2 way TE gives the offense so much more versatility in that you can call plays without "scheming or aligning differently" based base personnel. EE lines up tight but nobody fears his blocking so they don't have to scheme to play him. EE split out wide is a dead give away we are passing. Now, if we had a guy who is more than functional blocking and is also a threat to catch passes then he can line up tight and teams have to account for his blocking and his pass catching.

If the commit a bigger more physical LB on him to stop a potential run they lose that force elsewhere and our TE can and should win 1 on 1 blocking matchups more than 50/60% of the time. But, they also need to have someone wtaching just in case he releases as that more physical LB on the line is not likely going to be able to cover him. At the very least it makes a defense have to think more.

EE is an average receiver (hands wise) and is very average to below average blocker. His size (physicality to size) is average as well.

A two way TE is a difference maker to an offense not necessarily to his stat lines.
RE: Some good comments on this thread  
LBH15 : 1/15/2021 11:49 am : link
In comment 15123346 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I appreciate the serious arguments about why they are important.

Here's one stat-driven way of looking at it. Let's take Jason Witten, primarily a pass catcher rather than a blocker and generally an excellent TE.

He caught on average 71% of his targets over his career and 7.6 yards per target. That completion percentage is slightly above what a good QB in this period averages. Tony Romo's lifetime completion percentage is 65%, for example. and an average yards per attempt of 7.9 yards. Witten was targeted roughly 120x per season in his prime, so he helped Tony Romo complete maybe 7-8 extra passes over the course of a season vs an average alternative target, with a mild negative in yardage (maybe negative 50 yards over the course of a season).

Let's take a mid-level WR like Terrance Williams, to stick with the same offensive context. Williams, a decent but not exceptional WR, caught 62% of his targets for 9.0 yards per target in his Cowboys career. Williams was targeted less often than Witten, maybe 80-90x per season in the middle 2010s, and passing to him resulted in 3-4 incompletions than Romo's average per season but also added roughly 125-150 yards total in passing yardage.

So which has more impact on the passing offense? A HoF level TE like Witten or a decent starting WR like Williams? The answer isn't obvious to me.

So to get this out of the way: yes, I know there are many things that a TE does that are not statistically measurable, at least easy. And I know my analysis above is simplistic. But the above - which all comes from the same set so it should be comparable - just quantifies my intuition about the TE position.

A Hall of Famer like Witten or an average starting WR? I'd rather have Witten, sure, but they don't have monumental differences in impact.


Some quick thoughts...

Why do you think Witten was targeted so much more frequently in their primes, especially if there was actually a yardage benefit to throwing to Williams per your stats above?

Also, I thought your question was whether TEs are difference makers for building contending teams, but your stats only reflect the the passing aspect. Presumably a contending team wants to run the ball well too and I don't think its a stretch to say Witten provided exponentially more impact to the running aspect of Dallas than did Williams. While at the same time still being "comparable" to Williams in the passing aspect per your assessment.

thoughts?
disagree...  
ryanmkeane : 1/15/2021 11:59 am : link
Kittle is the engine for the 49ers when he's healthy. A great two way TE can be huge.
They're ALL difference makers  
David B. : 1/15/2021 12:00 pm : link
when they play the Giants. It wasn't JUST Witten.
Even as a Giants fan  
pjcas18 : 1/15/2021 12:08 pm : link
it's hard to ignore the simple fact if Engram had better hands the Giants probably win 2 or 3 more games.

and he can't block. How is that not a difference maker?

Now, imagine Engram could block like a Gronk, Kittle, or Gonzalez and you don't see how a player like that can make a difference?

If your point is more you wouldn't draft one in the first or top 10 or something like that, you might have a better case, but absolutely a TE CAN be a difference maker.
RE: They're ALL difference makers  
Dnew15 : 1/15/2021 12:10 pm : link
In comment 15123487 David B. said:
Quote:
when they play the Giants. It wasn't JUST Witten.


I think the Giants were much better against TEs this year than in previous years.
Kelce makes an enormous difference for KC  
BLUATHRT : 1/15/2021 12:10 pm : link
Shockey was a huge weapon for Eli. Kellen Winslow, Witten, Gronk...
Kelce, Waller, and Kittle say Hi  
BradberryGlue : 1/15/2021 12:14 pm : link
I agree to a point and the point is those 3 names. And before these guys you had guys like Gronk, Graham, Gates, Sharpe.

There is a huge pool of similar TEs in the league, average guys who have a game here and there, but there is certainly that top level that are major difference makers.

That is why if we can get Pitts and groom him to a guy on that next level we'd have a major advantage over teams who are running out Joe Average at the position.

Creating mismatches on offense is the best way to get consistent gash plays. With Barkley and Pitts I think we could have 2 of those types of players. You get Pitts matched up with an undersized slot corner or a LB and he can eat.
LBH  
cosmicj : 1/15/2021 12:18 pm : link
The blocking is important, but there you're comparing Witten with a replacement level TE blocker. I'm not sure he has any advantage there.

But why not look at the passing game the same way - it's a good point.

Let's compare Witten in 2011, one of his better seasons, vs a totally mediocre backup TE named John Phillips on the Cowboys that season. Phillips was not a pass receiving threat and averaged a measly 5.6 yards per target vs Witten's 8.1. Witten was targeted 117 times that season and caught 79 of them. Let's say the Cowboys had to make do with Phillips and didn't use Witten's playmaking ability in their play design (I know that's a stretch, but this is a simplifying look at this). Philips also hoovered everything thrown at him (he caught 83% of the passes thrown to him vs Witten's 67%) so he's truly a low-threat outlet TE who caught dump-offs. Philips would have generated much less yardage than Witten (411 yards less, which I calculate by the difference between the two players yards per reception (11.9-6.7)*79 yards per target difference) but he also would have caught more balls because he was a dump-off receiver without big play ability. Those additional yards I calculate as 123 yards (18 extra receptions at Philips average yards per catch (not per target) of 6.7). 410 less 123 over the whole season averages to about 18 yards per game.

So you substitute one of the great TEs of recent history for a backup blocking guy who is no threat whatsoever and the difference is 18 yards per game. You can quibble with my analysis - which isn't meant to be comprehensive - and point out out that the two players were used in different ways, which dynamically helped the entire offense, BUT boy is 18 yards not a lot.

The range of numbers backs up my instinct that the TE position isn't a difference maker.
cosmicj...  
bw in dc : 1/15/2021 12:27 pm : link
So what are you getting at here? You don't think a first round pick should be invested in a TE?

To me, controlling the middle of the field is pretty vital for both the defense and the offense. So if you can find a TE who can consistently pressure a safety to cover - and the TE is winning that match-up - the offense then has more opportunities to exploit more space. And that's a big ripple effect.
RE: LBH  
pjcas18 : 1/15/2021 12:27 pm : link
In comment 15123500 cosmicj said:
Quote:
The blocking is important, but there you're comparing Witten with a replacement level TE blocker. I'm not sure he has any advantage there.

But why not look at the passing game the same way - it's a good point.

Let's compare Witten in 2011, one of his better seasons, vs a totally mediocre backup TE named John Phillips on the Cowboys that season. Phillips was not a pass receiving threat and averaged a measly 5.6 yards per target vs Witten's 8.1. Witten was targeted 117 times that season and caught 79 of them. Let's say the Cowboys had to make do with Phillips and didn't use Witten's playmaking ability in their play design (I know that's a stretch, but this is a simplifying look at this). Philips also hoovered everything thrown at him (he caught 83% of the passes thrown to him vs Witten's 67%) so he's truly a low-threat outlet TE who caught dump-offs. Philips would have generated much less yardage than Witten (411 yards less, which I calculate by the difference between the two players yards per reception (11.9-6.7)*79 yards per target difference) but he also would have caught more balls because he was a dump-off receiver without big play ability. Those additional yards I calculate as 123 yards (18 extra receptions at Philips average yards per catch (not per target) of 6.7). 410 less 123 over the whole season averages to about 18 yards per game.

So you substitute one of the great TEs of recent history for a backup blocking guy who is no threat whatsoever and the difference is 18 yards per game. You can quibble with my analysis - which isn't meant to be comprehensive - and point out out that the two players were used in different ways, which dynamically helped the entire offense, BUT boy is 18 yards not a lot.

The range of numbers backs up my instinct that the TE position isn't a difference maker.


I don't think you can realistically extrapolate that way.

Because there are players who can run a play once or twice because the defense doesn't scheme for it, but it won't work more than that because once they see it they can know to expect it. An example is the Patriots used to line Mike Vrabel up at TE around the goal line and they'd pass to him there. He was something like 6 for 6 in catches all for TD's.

By your logic, get rid of Gronk and use Vrabel at TE and you increase your reception percent to near 100.

But it falls apart because a) like Phillips not having the same skill set at Witten, Vrabel is not comparable to Gronk, so a play that has success with Witten or Gronk wouldn't with Phillips or Vrabel.

I hope I'm being clear, but bottom line is you are comparing apples to oranges.
RE: cosmicj...  
Dnew15 : 1/15/2021 12:30 pm : link
In comment 15123517 bw in dc said:
Quote:
So what are you getting at here? You don't think a first round pick should be invested in a TE?

To me, controlling the middle of the field is pretty vital for both the defense and the offense. So if you can find a TE who can consistently pressure a safety to cover - and the TE is winning that match-up - the offense then has more opportunities to exploit more space. And that's a big ripple effect.


If that's the argument "We shouldn't invest a 1st rd pick in a TE" - I think there's a valid argument to made there.

If it's the fact that TE don't impact the game at a high level - I don't think there's an argument to had there.
The TE..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/15/2021 12:31 pm : link
position is really tough to gauge based on a YPG basis - sometimes even by the raw stats at all.

It is all about the effectiveness in the offense. a TE like Mark Andrews is essential to the Baltimore offense because he's in as a blocker the majority of the time, but when he goes out, he's almost assuredly has a mismatch due to the design of the Baltimore offense. There are also designed plays where he is going to be in space against a DE on a misdirection play. His ability to get that big gain feeds off of that and the mismatch.

In the KC offense, you have a deep threat that opens up the underneath routes for Kelce and once he has a step, he's getting additional yards vs. a replacement TE.

Kittle, off of the RPO and play action was not just effective, but the centerpiece of the SF offense.

I'm not sure how we can be living in the Era of guys like Kittle, Gronk, Kelce, Ertz, Witten, Graham and Waller, and not see the impact they have.
RE: RE: cosmicj...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/15/2021 12:31 pm : link
In comment 15123521 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15123517 bw in dc said:


Quote:


So what are you getting at here? You don't think a first round pick should be invested in a TE?

To me, controlling the middle of the field is pretty vital for both the defense and the offense. So if you can find a TE who can consistently pressure a safety to cover - and the TE is winning that match-up - the offense then has more opportunities to exploit more space. And that's a big ripple effect.



If that's the argument "We shouldn't invest a 1st rd pick in a TE" - I think there's a valid argument to made there.

If it's the fact that TE don't impact the game at a high level - I don't think there's an argument to had there.


That's very well put
RE: Some good comments on this thread  
jomps : 1/15/2021 12:34 pm : link
In comment 15123346 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I appreciate the serious arguments about why they are important.

Here's one stat-driven way of looking at it. Let's take Jason Witten, primarily a pass catcher rather than a blocker and generally an excellent TE.

He caught on average 71% of his targets over his career and 7.6 yards per target. That completion percentage is slightly above what a good QB in this period averages. Tony Romo's lifetime completion percentage is 65%, for example. and an average yards per attempt of 7.9 yards. Witten was targeted roughly 120x per season in his prime, so he helped Tony Romo complete maybe 7-8 extra passes over the course of a season vs an average alternative target, with a mild negative in yardage (maybe negative 50 yards over the course of a season).

Let's take a mid-level WR like Terrance Williams, to stick with the same offensive context. Williams, a decent but not exceptional WR, caught 62% of his targets for 9.0 yards per target in his Cowboys career. Williams was targeted less often than Witten, maybe 80-90x per season in the middle 2010s, and passing to him resulted in 3-4 incompletions than Romo's average per season but also added roughly 125-150 yards total in passing yardage.

So which has more impact on the passing offense? A HoF level TE like Witten or a decent starting WR like Williams? The answer isn't obvious to me.

So to get this out of the way: yes, I know there are many things that a TE does that are not statistically measurable, at least easy. And I know my analysis above is simplistic. But the above - which all comes from the same set so it should be comparable - just quantifies my intuition about the TE position.

A Hall of Famer like Witten or an average starting WR? I'd rather have Witten, sure, but they don't have monumental differences in impact.


Hi cosmic,

I think they do have monumental differences, in the sense that those stats alone (as you know and said) are rather simplistic.

In this particular example, Witten was the chain mover, Romo's security blanket and buried us in a lot of games. That 15' season opener where he scored a TD in the last 5 seconds in the game is a good example.
And as a piece of the engine you have to account for a guy like that defensively speaking, which opens up other possibilities for the other skill players (this is actually why I think the Giants insist so much with Engram despite all the bad plays).

On the other hand, I do not remember enough about Terrance Williams to argue here.

Another point is, here we're only talking about receiving abilities, but just to make a point did you see Gronk vs Young in the Wild Card? It was talked about all week that Chase would wreak havoc in that game and he couldn't get to Brady.

In the end of the day as I see it, football is all about matchups and when you have a great, dual-threat TE, it gives you immense advantage in the game.
RE: LBH  
LBH15 : 1/15/2021 12:43 pm : link
In comment 15123500 cosmicj said:
Quote:
The blocking is important, but there you're comparing Witten with a replacement level TE blocker. I'm not sure he has any advantage there.

But why not look at the passing game the same way - it's a good point.

Let's compare Witten in 2011, one of his better seasons, vs a totally mediocre backup TE named John Phillips on the Cowboys that season. Phillips was not a pass receiving threat and averaged a measly 5.6 yards per target vs Witten's 8.1. Witten was targeted 117 times that season and caught 79 of them. Let's say the Cowboys had to make do with Phillips and didn't use Witten's playmaking ability in their play design (I know that's a stretch, but this is a simplifying look at this). Philips also hoovered everything thrown at him (he caught 83% of the passes thrown to him vs Witten's 67%) so he's truly a low-threat outlet TE who caught dump-offs. Philips would have generated much less yardage than Witten (411 yards less, which I calculate by the difference between the two players yards per reception (11.9-6.7)*79 yards per target difference) but he also would have caught more balls because he was a dump-off receiver without big play ability. Those additional yards I calculate as 123 yards (18 extra receptions at Philips average yards per catch (not per target) of 6.7). 410 less 123 over the whole season averages to about 18 yards per game.

So you substitute one of the great TEs of recent history for a backup blocking guy who is no threat whatsoever and the difference is 18 yards per game. You can quibble with my analysis - which isn't meant to be comprehensive - and point out out that the two players were used in different ways, which dynamically helped the entire offense, BUT boy is 18 yards not a lot.

The range of numbers backs up my instinct that the TE position isn't a difference maker.


Look, you are losing me altogether now.

First of all, if you now move to compare Witten to a replacement type blocker than the receiving aspect comes back into play and you have to carry two guys versus one. This also signals to defense what is coming. If you suggest you don't need the receiving TE at all, then fine just expect double coverage on Williams and watch what happens to his numbers.

Second, that is not the way to extrapolate. And even if it was then why isn't John Phillips more well known?

I gave it an honest try, but you seem to want to sit at a position of prove me wrong versus staying objective.

thx
TE's are not difference makers?  
D HOS : 1/15/2021 12:45 pm : link
If they are playing against our defenses, they sure as hell are.
RE: RE: cosmicj...  
LBH15 : 1/15/2021 12:50 pm : link
In comment 15123521 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15123517 bw in dc said:


Quote:


So what are you getting at here? You don't think a first round pick should be invested in a TE?

To me, controlling the middle of the field is pretty vital for both the defense and the offense. So if you can find a TE who can consistently pressure a safety to cover - and the TE is winning that match-up - the offense then has more opportunities to exploit more space. And that's a big ripple effect.



If that's the argument "We shouldn't invest a 1st rd pick in a TE" - I think there's a valid argument to made there.

If it's the fact that TE don't impact the game at a high level - I don't think there's an argument to had there.


Good post Dnew. That is where I am. I like a guy like Pitts and think he would be an exciting addition. However, some concern that at #11 I am picking a guy that has an immediate flaw that the Offense has to make up for.

He still might be worth it if the receiving is that important to my scheme. If not, then I might be best served to get an average receiver who can block and maybe find that guy in Rd 2 (or whenever).
OK, a lot of good counterarguments  
cosmicj : 1/15/2021 12:53 pm : link
I'll keep them in mind.

To clarify, this post was really about Pitts. I think all the Giants TEs suck and need to be replaced. I hate Engram, simply hate him. So the question is whether a premier talent like Pitts is really the way to move the team forward.
LBH  
cosmicj : 1/15/2021 12:54 pm : link
I wasn't clear enough. I first compared a fairly average although capable WR to Witten. Then you pointed the blocking, so I compared Witten with a replacement level TE. Admittedly, the analysis is simplistic, so I was trying to scale things as a first step.
RE: RE: cosmicj...  
bw in dc : 1/15/2021 12:56 pm : link
In comment 15123521 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15123517 bw in dc said:


Quote:


So what are you getting at here? You don't think a first round pick should be invested in a TE?

To me, controlling the middle of the field is pretty vital for both the defense and the offense. So if you can find a TE who can consistently pressure a safety to cover - and the TE is winning that match-up - the offense then has more opportunities to exploit more space. And that's a big ripple effect.



If that's the argument "We shouldn't invest a 1st rd pick in a TE" - I think there's a valid argument to made there.


TE is such a difficult position to evaluate to determine if the skill sets/production will convey from college to pro. You really have to be convinced.

So I go back and forth on that. However, lately, I'm saying yes - the TE position is a premium position to draft in the first round (largely based on what I described earlier).

But then there are layers. Is a top ten investment worth it? Top fifteen? Bottom half of the draft? Etc. I probably think it's an easier sell in the bottom half.

Then a guy like Pitts comes along and it's very easy to see something special there. There is a lot to like. I have never liked Jones throwing the ball outside the numbers. But he does appear to throw a good ball into the seam. And who can really dominate that part of the field? A terrific TE.


I agree with this sentiment. No debate at all from me!  
LBH15 : 1/15/2021 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15123558 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I think all the Giants TEs suck and need to be replaced. I hate Engram, simply hate him.
Take a look at the recent SB winners:  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/15/2021 12:59 pm : link
KC - Kelce - 1st on team in receiving
NE - Gronk 4th in receiving missed 5 games
Phil - Ertz - 1st in receiving
NE - Bennett 2nd in team receiving in only 12 starts
DEN - Owen Daniels - 3rd on team
NE - Gronk - 1st on team

For the past 6 SB winners, the TE was 1st on the team in yards. If anything - that might indicate TE's are a significant difference maker
RE: Take a look at the recent SB winners:  
Thegratefulhead : 1/15/2021 1:15 pm : link
In comment 15123568 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
KC - Kelce - 1st on team in receiving
NE - Gronk 4th in receiving missed 5 games
Phil - Ertz - 1st in receiving
NE - Bennett 2nd in team receiving in only 12 starts
DEN - Owen Daniels - 3rd on team
NE - Gronk - 1st on team

For the past 6 SB winners, the TE was 1st on the team in yards. If anything - that might indicate TE's are a significant difference maker
OP never made his own case. Not sure why we are engaging him.
If watching the 2020 Giants  
pjcas18 : 1/15/2021 1:19 pm : link
leads to broad NFL conclusions you can make the case WR's are not difference makers either.

Nor are running backs, or OL or QB's.
Its more than stats  
KWALL2 : 1/15/2021 1:21 pm : link
"A Hall of Famer like Witten or an average starting WR? I'd rather have Witten, sure, but they don't have monumental differences in impact."

Two points:

1. The average WR is easy to find.
2. A top TE impacts the way the defense plays.

Impact TE or avg WR? That TE is much harder to find and it makes your team much tougher to defend. You have a TE who can't be covered by TEs it makes it a lot easier for that easy-to-find avg WR to make plays.
I'm starting to warm on Pitts  
ryanmkeane : 1/15/2021 1:30 pm : link
...he just turned 20.
Hey, Engram made a difference in several games this year  
Cenotaph : 1/15/2021 1:46 pm : link
Usually that was a benefit to the opponent when he vollyballed a pass in his hands up for a safety to easily run under....but certainly made a difference.

An interesting year to make this argument when guys like Kittle and Ertz were hurt, but yes a solid TE can make a difference, just like about any other skill position. Finding the right role for a key - some guys may be more TD threats, or a LB/S mismatch as a receiver, or a well rounded blocker/clutch catch guy etc. You can argue how much difference maybe, but pretty much any position can have a huge effect if you have the right talent used correctly.
Here is a list  
Dnew15 : 1/15/2021 1:47 pm : link
of TEs drafted in the 1st round. I went back as far as I could until I could find one that really seemed like lived up to his draft pick.
2007:
Greg Olsen
2008:
Dustin Keller
2009:
Brandon Pettigrew
2010:
Jermaine Gresham
2011:
none
2012:
none
2013:
Tyler Eifert
2014:
Eric Ebron
2015:
none
2016:
none
2017:
OJ Howard
Evan Engram
David Njoku
2018:
Hayden Hurst
2019:
TJ Hockenson
Noah Fant
2020:
none

THat's 13 years worth of 1st rd TEs.
You guys are going back lilke 40 years to list a handful  
ZogZerg : 1/15/2021 2:17 pm : link
of difference maker TEs.

That position is much harder to figure out in the draft than QB. So many first round "flops" at that position. Remember Detroit just grabbed a "difference maker" TE in the top 10 and they already had really good WRs. He hasn't made a difference at all.

The TE position is difficult to adjust to in the NFL.

No thanks to the first round TE at the 11th pick.

Not a fan at all.
I wouldn't say they aren't difference makers.  
mittenedman : 1/15/2021 2:28 pm : link
It's about job description.

I don't need an undersized TE. I don't need a 4.4.

Give me a big, hard-nosed sumbitch who can block, catch a pass when he's wide open and run over anyone who tries to tackle him. The one athletic play I look for is the ability to get up the seam and make a circus catch, which is why a basketball background intrigues.

You can find these guys in the later rounds, and bargain bin free agency. Mike Pope used to track all the Big 10 TE's and hit when called upon.
I think an overlooked reason why the 49ers was so effective so early  
NINEster : 1/15/2021 2:28 pm : link
with Kaepernick was because they had the deadly dual TE combo with Vernon Davis and Delanie Walker. Everyone was open that year for him, just like everyone was open for RG3.

Just created so many issues in the run/pass game that for that type of offense was what having stud WRs was to the Greatest Show on Turf, the current KC offense, etc.

Walker left in FA that offseason and that offense was never the same.

New England was creating problems with the two TE offense before the murdered was arrested. Looking back, there weren't many big games the two of them played together at the same time.

The issues with TEs is that not only are there less of them on team rosters, but finding good let alone great ones are pretty rare.

Thanks BBI friends...  
Dnew15 : 1/15/2021 2:47 pm : link
this thread made my Friday a hell of a lot better. Good stuff.

I hope no one is checking my browsing history at work today. Although I guess it could be way worse than 1st rd NFL TE drafts :)
RE: Some good comments on this thread  
markky : 1/15/2021 3:28 pm : link
In comment 15123346 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I appreciate the serious arguments about why they are important.

Here's one stat-driven way of looking at it. Let's take Jason Witten, primarily a pass catcher rather than a blocker and generally an excellent TE.

He caught on average 71% of his targets over his career and 7.6 yards per target. That completion percentage is slightly above what a good QB in this period averages. Tony Romo's lifetime completion percentage is 65%, for example. and an average yards per attempt of 7.9 yards. Witten was targeted roughly 120x per season in his prime, so he helped Tony Romo complete maybe 7-8 extra passes over the course of a season vs an average alternative target, with a mild negative in yardage (maybe negative 50 yards over the course of a season).

Let's take a mid-level WR like Terrance Williams, to stick with the same offensive context. Williams, a decent but not exceptional WR, caught 62% of his targets for 9.0 yards per target in his Cowboys career. Williams was targeted less often than Witten, maybe 80-90x per season in the middle 2010s, and passing to him resulted in 3-4 incompletions than Romo's average per season but also added roughly 125-150 yards total in passing yardage.

So which has more impact on the passing offense? A HoF level TE like Witten or a decent starting WR like Williams? The answer isn't obvious to me.

So to get this out of the way: yes, I know there are many things that a TE does that are not statistically measurable, at least easy. And I know my analysis above is simplistic. But the above - which all comes from the same set so it should be comparable - just quantifies my intuition about the TE position.

A Hall of Famer like Witten or an average starting WR? I'd rather have Witten, sure, but they don't have monumental differences in impact.


maybe a better analysis is the difference between Witten and an average TE. Presumably the team has the TE in additoin to an average WR, not instead of.
NINEster - that was a really good post.  
cosmicj : 1/15/2021 3:50 pm : link
Made the case really well for acquiring talented TEs.

markky - did you see I tried exactly that TE comp later on?
It's all about match-ups  
BH28 : 1/15/2021 4:17 pm : link
I think the fallacy is looking at TE production vs WR production and thinking that TEs don't make a difference.

If you have a TE who can constantly win one on one battles with linebackers or safeties, it forces the D to have to put more than one person on the TE. When you do that, you are creating one on one match-ups for your skill players to exploit. If you have two skill guys who can consistently beat one on one coverage; that's a nightmare for a defense.

It's the same concept as an elite RB (8 men in the box) or elite WR (getting bracket coverage). Gives other guys the oppurtunity to make plays. And when the defense gambles on one on one match-up on an elite player; that's when you can exploit that match-up.
Tight Ends  
TyreeHelmet : 1/15/2021 6:49 pm : link
You don’t think Kelce and Kittle make a difference? Or Gronk in his prime. Honestly asking.
I'd say Kelce and Kittle  
Breeze_94 : 1/15/2021 8:26 pm : link
are two of the top 10-12 non QB difference makers in the NFL on the offensive side of the ball

Also, when you factor in that the supply of difference makers at TE is much more scarce than it is at WR, I think the argument that a guy like Pitts would be a tremendous addition becomes even stronger
If we draft Pitts and Barkley and DJ are on same field  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/15/2021 8:36 pm : link
we are unstoppable in red zone. Best team in league with how our line run blocks. The amount of gadget plays go way down in redzone as well. No need. Teams move the ball with ease in football today and that's why explosive plays in red zone scoring percentage are so important.
RE: If we draft Pitts and Barkley and DJ are on same field  
LBH15 : 1/16/2021 9:20 am : link
In comment 15123879 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
we are unstoppable in red zone. Best team in league with how our line run blocks. The amount of gadget plays go way down in redzone as well. No need. Teams move the ball with ease in football today and that's why explosive plays in red zone scoring percentage are so important.


Unstoppable...Best team in league??

Where did this come from?
RE: RE: If we draft Pitts and Barkley and DJ are on same field  
bw in dc : 1/16/2021 9:27 am : link
In comment 15124072 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15123879 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


we are unstoppable in red zone. Best team in league with how our line run blocks. The amount of gadget plays go way down in redzone as well. No need. Teams move the ball with ease in football today and that's why explosive plays in red zone scoring percentage are so important.



Unstoppable...Best team in league??

Where did this come from?


To quote Alan Greenspan, this sounds like “irrational exuberance”...
I don’t understand how we wouldn’t be best team in league in red zone  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/16/2021 9:35 am : link
Pitts is practically unstoppable in the air, you have the 11th man in run game with DJ, you certainly need to account for Saquon, and our line can run block.

There just isn’t a way to stop it. You want to have everyone accounted for in run game? Pitts has 1 v 1 matchup with corner. Good luck with that.
Zeke - not suggesting the picture you paint is a bad one  
LBH15 : 1/16/2021 9:44 am : link
at all. Pitts looks like a nice weapon and getting SB back doesn't hurt.

But unstoppable and best in the league bragging with any part of the NY Giants, and specifically scoring, is like pipe-dream talk.

Just finishing my first cup of coffee too.
I don’t think it’s pipe dream talk. I think people have amnesia  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/16/2021 10:02 am : link
Of how good Saquon actually is. Between him and DJ in run game, we really just need a red zone receiving threat to get to the next level. IMO I think Pitts is going to step on the NFL field and be best red zone receiving threat in entire league. Maybe I change my mind after combine, but if he jumps 34 inches plus, really can’t stop him down there the way he attacks football. We were actually mediocre in red zone until DJs running ability got taken away, and that’s with the putrid pieces around him.
Well, Jones needs to play much, much better  
cosmicj : 1/16/2021 10:07 am : link
For us to have a good red zone offense. Balls need to be delivered on time in such close quarters and one of Jones’ 2020 problems is that the balls were regularly late getting to the receivers.
RE: I don’t think it’s pipe dream talk. I think people have amnesia  
LBH15 : 1/16/2021 10:11 am : link
In comment 15124102 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Of how good Saquon actually is. Between him and DJ in run game, we really just need a red zone receiving threat to get to the next level. IMO I think Pitts is going to step on the NFL field and be best red zone receiving threat in entire league. Maybe I change my mind after combine, but if he jumps 34 inches plus, really can’t stop him down there the way he attacks football. We were actually mediocre in red zone until DJs running ability got taken away, and that’s with the putrid pieces around him.


Ok. If NYG draft Pitts then I hope you're right.
RE: Well, Jones needs to play much, much better  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/16/2021 10:24 am : link
In comment 15124107 cosmicj said:
Quote:
For us to have a good red zone offense. Balls need to be delivered on time in such close quarters and one of Jones’ 2020 problems is that the balls were regularly late getting to the receivers.


Not sure where this is coming from other than the failed two pt conversion and I broke that play down ad nasuem why he pulled that ball down. We had zero red zone receiving threats. Our best option was Shep and he’s a two route pony down there. Slant and z-out. Go to the well there and its risky as it results in pick 6s. The QB that played in second half of the season was not “regularly late”.
Travis Kelce  
UConn4523 : 1/16/2021 10:30 am : link
has a bigger impact thank Tyreek Hill, IMO. That’s the #1 TE vs a top 7 or 8 WR in terms of league wide value.

The problem I have with TEs is they are really hard to find and they bust easily so trying to find the next Kelce is likely going to end up in a wasted pick in all likelihood.

Zeke  
cosmicj : 1/16/2021 10:31 am : link
I started focussing more on Jones’ timing in the last half of the season. He delivers the ball late pretty often. People complain about our skill players but Jones is often not putting them into a position to make easy catches or to get YAC. It’s an area where he really needs to improve and isn’t just about thar 2pt conversion we were talking about last year.
RE: Zeke  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/16/2021 10:40 am : link
In comment 15124137 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I started focussing more on Jones’ timing in the last half of the season. He delivers the ball late pretty often. People complain about our skill players but Jones is often not putting them into a position to make easy catches or to get YAC. It’s an area where he really needs to improve and isn’t just about thar 2pt conversion we were talking about last year.


Yeh I’m going to go ahead and disagree with that. First half of season? Sure, but when there is nowhere to go with the ball, there’s no where to go.
Rewatched the Ravens game last evening as I really didn't  
LBH15 : 1/16/2021 10:41 am : link
see much of it the first time, and many here (and Mara and Judge) point to that game as a good one for Jones.

But I just didn't see it. Ravens Front 7, blitzing and overall speed really surprised the Giants Oline and Jones and I didn't see them adjust soon enough. But Jones also didn't meet the challenge very well imv. Slow processing, late throws and missed throws all pretty apparent. Yes, his OL and WR need to step up too but looking to the guy under Center to be sharper, and at the very least make defenses SOMETIMES for being aggressive.

I pulled the below from Sy's review writeup because it explains what i saw as well...to a tee.

-Daniel Jones: 24-41 / 252 yards / 1 TD – 0 INT / 84.6 RAT

The stat line actually made Jones’ performance look better than he played. It wasn’t a good game for the sophomore, as he missed on multiple throws that, simply put, he needs to make. He was short on a couple deep balls to Slayton, he was high on a couple of open slants where he had pressure coming right at him, and he did not process information quickly enough when BAL sent the house in their blitz packages. While the offensive line didn’t do him any favors and we just don’t see these receivers ever running with space around them, his performance did not help this team.

If TEs can be such difference makers  
RomanWH : 1/16/2021 10:42 am : link
as others have pointed out TE tandems like Gronk and Hernandez and Vernon Davis and Delanie Walker, why hasn't any team ever used 3 TEs as their base personnel?

A good, athletic TE is a mismatch no matter who you have trying to cover him, right? Can outrun most LBers, has size advantage over DBs, and can run block better than WRs can. So why not have 3 TEs out there that can shift into any formation you want to take advantage of these mismatches every play? If the defense trots out their nickel package, shift into a goalline set and run it down their throats. If they bring out their jumbo package, spread it out and throw it to whomever is being covered by their LBers. Take Little Bill's 2 TE nightmare up a notch.
**  
LBH15 : 1/16/2021 10:42 am : link
make defenses pay SOMETIMES for being aggressive
RE: **  
bw in dc : 1/16/2021 11:23 am : link
In comment 15124147 LBH15 said:
Quote:
make defenses pay SOMETIMES for being aggressive


There have been several Sy reviews this year that contradicted the BBI mainstream that Jones played well.

It's like I wrote to you yesterday, Jones finally broke his TD drought against the Ravens after a month without throwing one. So it was like a collective exhale of: "Whew, okay Jones is back as the franchise QB!..."
You do not need a top TE to win in this league...  
EricJ : 1/16/2021 11:36 am : link
but a sub-par TE will seriously hurt you. If he cannot catch and cannot block, then he is a serious liability.

All we need is a guy who can catch what is thrown to him and who can be a very effective blocker. We do not need a speed burner.
Jones didn’t do enough to win against Baltimore  
UConn4523 : 1/16/2021 11:58 am : link
Is that really an opinion worth propping up? I don’t think anyone thought he played a great game and we only lost because of those around him.

What really happened is we were predicted to lose by 40 and he played a bit better than most figured he would.

Isn’t this thread about TEs? Doesn’t our often times make our QB look works? Wouldnt we be better if our TE caught those 4 or 5 big passes?
RE: Jones didn’t do enough to win against Baltimore  
LBH15 : 1/16/2021 1:32 pm : link
In comment 15124189 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
Is that really an opinion worth propping up? I don’t think anyone thought he played a great game and we only lost because of those around him.

What really happened is we were predicted to lose by 40 and he played a bit better than most figured he would.

Isn’t this thread about TEs? Doesn’t our often times make our QB look works? Wouldnt we be better if our TE caught those 4 or 5 big passes?


Jones and how well he played at the end of year was a topic a day or so ago on a thread, and someone was specifically giving him props for the Raven game. I mentioned I wanted to rewatch it because many on BBI and Mara have mentioned the same I didn't recall that being the case.

When I read the above posts from Zeke and cosmic commenting on DJ, I just put my comment here.

Don't be so off-put for a nothing reason.

Good lord.
RE: RE: **  
LBH15 : 1/16/2021 1:55 pm : link
In comment 15124169 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15124147 LBH15 said:


Quote:


make defenses pay SOMETIMES for being aggressive



There have been several Sy reviews this year that contradicted the BBI mainstream that Jones played well.

It's like I wrote to you yesterday, Jones finally broke his TD drought against the Ravens after a month without throwing one. So it was like a collective exhale of: "Whew, okay Jones is back as the franchise QB!..."


Yes, I tend to agree bw.

After the last few years of Eli's career and now DJ's sophomore year, it does indeed feel that Giants fans are somewhat complacent with a QB performance that, while may not be bad, doesn't really do anything noticeably well to lift offensive production & scoring and keep them in the game.

Defenders here will read that and say "the QB can't do it all" versus reading it and questioning is he doing enough.

Good lord, I’m not off put  
UConn4523 : 1/16/2021 3:11 pm : link
I just see your name on every single thread and it’s usually about one of two or three things.

So one guy said Jones played really well against the ravens, do I have that right?

I’m actually pretty entertained by the lengths you go so keep it coming. I’ve taken the sit back and watch approach for the most part now so the arguments that I’m no longer in really make the day go.
Um...enough of posters said it but moreso my interest  
LBH15 : 1/16/2021 3:53 pm : link
was also spurned on when I also heard it during the Front Office media sessions. What difference does that make unless your trying to just be rude.

Sit back some more, so we all can enjoy that if this is how you want to act.
Oh I forgot  
LBH15 : 1/16/2021 3:55 pm : link
Good lord.
They can make a difference but at this time not in the way we need  
MotownGIANTS : 1/16/2021 3:59 pm : link
most and thats speed and explosion over the top. A good TE helps make the o run like a well oiled machine as a nice go to guy to keep 3rd downs manageable as well as an outlet,
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