I don’t think even the very good TEs make much of a difference in building contending teams. Let me know if you agree. If you don’t, convince me - I have an open mind.
Ok, so Gonzalez is one of the best TEs in history and he didn’t win a playoff game until he was 36. I admit that included a tough playoff loss in 2004 against a very good Colts team, but Gonzalez never even played in a conference championship. Even with his absolute excellence in Kansas City, he never was part of a contender there.
I know we all have nightmares about him as Giants fans but Witten never played in a conference championship and didn’t catch a TD in his first seven playoff appearances.
Some of these TEs don't have huge stats, lots of playoff appearances or championships, then, I don't know what to tell you. Difference making is not solely counted on the stat sheet and trophy case.
I think the QB is definetly more important. All 5 OL positions, the WRs are bigger difference makers after that TEs and RBs.. Obviously Top notch talent are diffence makers at TE as with any other position but on average give me better center over a better TE or a better WR over a better TE..
Except that football achievement shouldn’t be measured in stats or actually winning important games, but something else, antimatter or team spirit or something.
Except that football achievement shouldn’t be measured in stats or actually winning important games, but something else, antimatter or team spirit or something.
I don't see a real argument that a TE can't be a difference maker. Compare a season of Kevin Boss vs. Brandon Myers. There's a big difference.
Kelce
Graham prime
Cook
Witten
Tony G
Gronk
Kittle
Waller
You want to keep going ? A good tight end changes around an entire offense. Occupies safeties and linebackers, creates mismatches oh and it helps when they can block in the run game.
I’ll start a thread. “I don’t think a QB is a difference maker. I’m open to listening”
Which is at least half of a TE's job. Both run and pass blocking. A good TE can make a big difference in both these areas. Imagine Barkley with daylight to run to. And they have to be accounted for in the passing game as well. And their size makes them good Red Zone targets. They don't make the kind of headline grabbing news that WR do, no. Doesn't mean they don't make a difference. Even maybe a big difference.
A good TE catches everything thrown his way, isn't afraid to go up the seam, can find the soft spot in zone, and ideally can win the 50/50 balls. While also adding in pass protection.
Many 1st round TE's don't live up to their draft position though.
Even Eric Ebron, who has had a decent career, picked #10, before guys like......Aaron Donald, Odell Beckham, Jr., Kyle Fuller, Zack Martin, Taylor Lewan, Ryan Shazier, C.J. Mosley. I would think Detroit would like a do over on that one.
In today's game, it seems to me that a lot of the role of TE has moved to the small, quick twitch, slot WR's. I think maybe the Pat's started this trend??
formation and scheme versatile. How Shanahan uses Kittle and the Fullback to get the defenses to declare and mess with their rules is very clever, and one of the things along with their running scheme which makes that offense go.
If Evan engram catches a few more balls this season
Is part of a versatile, effective O. It’s not always about TDs, it’s about keeping the chains moving. A good TE is a weapon on 3rd down. Plus adding mid level receptions down the seam that can create chunk plays. There are some that are also very good red zone targets. And of course, their blocking is key as de facto members of the OL.
RE: If Evan engram catches a few more balls this season
I would think the answer is yes, they can make a difference but are not a requirement.
If you want to relate it to current NYG situation, I would suggest to you that a good TE would make a very big difference. We have a team with average at best WRs, a young QB struggling to find reliable target in the passing game, and particularly one that can play above the rim in the end zone so the team can score more points.
Throw in the fact the Giants like to scheme their rushing plays with in-line blockers on the move, and a good two-way TE could make a world of difference.
On 3rd down and 7 a good tight end who can find open holes in a zone or post up a linebacker in a 1 on 1 is a great asset. Difference maker? I don't know. I am not in the "cut Engram Crowd" But I think he would be a lot more effective if he was paired with a traditional TE and we could use Engram as more of an H-Back Type. Moving him around like NE moved Aaron Hernandez when paired with Gronk would be ideal. If fact, I think Engram as a full back in certain situations would work great. He is biger than most fullbacks, he is great at blocking linebackers and he would be a nightmare matchup coming out of the backfield
TE has changed - this notion that the top TE block is a myth. Kelce is out in the pattern all the time. Waller is out in the pattern all the time. Ertz was in the pattern.
Top TE are used on the move in the passing game much more than in the past.
There are not 5 guys in the league today who can block and catch
Gronk, Kelce, Kittle, Ertz
If it was easy to find these guys, everyone would have them. They are not easy to find
On 3rd down and 7 a good tight end who can find open holes in a zone or post up a linebacker in a 1 on 1 is a great asset. Difference maker? I don't know. I am not in the "cut Engram Crowd" But I think he would be a lot more effective if he was paired with a traditional TE and we could use Engram as more of an H-Back Type. Moving him around like NE moved Aaron Hernandez when paired with Gronk would be ideal. If fact, I think Engram as a full back in certain situations would work great. He is biger than most fullbacks, he is great at blocking linebackers and he would be a nightmare matchup coming out of the backfield
this is exactly where TEs are difference makers: extending drives. they do it by blocking on first down runs and finding holes in the defense on 3rd and long. a two way TE can make the offense much more efficient.
the question is at 11 do you take the 3rd best WR or the best TE. i do think we'll find a difference maker at 11.
one thing about being a bad team is that the delta between the talents of the incumbent and the replacement is usually greater than that of a good team. i expect us to fix a couple of big holes tis offseason and be at least .500 next year. playoffs in 2022 at the latest.
I appreciate the serious arguments about why they are important.
Here's one stat-driven way of looking at it. Let's take Jason Witten, primarily a pass catcher rather than a blocker and generally an excellent TE.
He caught on average 71% of his targets over his career and 7.6 yards per target. That completion percentage is slightly above what a good QB in this period averages. Tony Romo's lifetime completion percentage is 65%, for example. and an average yards per attempt of 7.9 yards. Witten was targeted roughly 120x per season in his prime, so he helped Tony Romo complete maybe 7-8 extra passes over the course of a season vs an average alternative target, with a mild negative in yardage (maybe negative 50 yards over the course of a season).
Let's take a mid-level WR like Terrance Williams, to stick with the same offensive context. Williams, a decent but not exceptional WR, caught 62% of his targets for 9.0 yards per target in his Cowboys career. Williams was targeted less often than Witten, maybe 80-90x per season in the middle 2010s, and passing to him resulted in 3-4 incompletions than Romo's average per season but also added roughly 125-150 yards total in passing yardage.
So which has more impact on the passing offense? A HoF level TE like Witten or a decent starting WR like Williams? The answer isn't obvious to me.
So to get this out of the way: yes, I know there are many things that a TE does that are not statistically measurable, at least easy. And I know my analysis above is simplistic. But the above - which all comes from the same set so it should be comparable - just quantifies my intuition about the TE position.
A Hall of Famer like Witten or an average starting WR? I'd rather have Witten, sure, but they don't have monumental differences in impact.
Cosmic.....the Boys offense under Garrett forces lots of attention
to the tight end and run game and than uses that to get the WRs deep. They pretty much had two WRs in the top 10 yards per catch year in and year out because of this. Slayton could be excellent in this role.
For many years Gronk, Tony Gonzalez, etc didn't have great WR's on their teams but their offenses still performed well because of them. Elite TE's create mismatch problems and open things up for the WR's as so much attention is payed to the TE. If the Giants added Pitts in round 1 and Barkley returned to form it would make life so much easier for the Giants WR's because defenses need to focus on those two.
I think all three of the Giants TEs suck and need to be replaced. The offense would greatly benefit from some even very average talent at that position group.
This post was really more motivated by the prospect of drafting Pitts. Would Pitts, who I think is an exceptional prospect, really get us closer to a Lombardi trophy? Eh.
are/were key parts to the best teams of the 2010s. Even when the PatS lost to the Eagles, the Eagles had big games from Ertz in the NFC Title Game and the Super Bowl.
With him on the team, Pats could get by with small, shifty WRs.Not sure how you can think that a special TE isn't a difference maker. There just aren't enough of the special ones.
But I believe in 2019 passing out of 12 personnel was over a full yard more efficient than passing out of 11. That would be an argument in favor of having strong two way TEs.
But I believe in 2019 passing out of 12 personnel was over a full yard more efficient than passing out of 11. That would be an argument in favor of having strong two way TEs.
Interesting stat - that would explain why McAdoo's offense was a wreck.
I am about to say what has been mentioned but, a true difference maker at TE isn't about numbers per se. Having a True 2 way TE gives the offense so much more versatility in that you can call plays without "scheming or aligning differently" based base personnel. EE lines up tight but nobody fears his blocking so they don't have to scheme to play him. EE split out wide is a dead give away we are passing. Now, if we had a guy who is more than functional blocking and is also a threat to catch passes then he can line up tight and teams have to account for his blocking and his pass catching.
If the commit a bigger more physical LB on him to stop a potential run they lose that force elsewhere and our TE can and should win 1 on 1 blocking matchups more than 50/60% of the time. But, they also need to have someone wtaching just in case he releases as that more physical LB on the line is not likely going to be able to cover him. At the very least it makes a defense have to think more.
EE is an average receiver (hands wise) and is very average to below average blocker. His size (physicality to size) is average as well.
A two way TE is a difference maker to an offense not necessarily to his stat lines.
I appreciate the serious arguments about why they are important.
Here's one stat-driven way of looking at it. Let's take Jason Witten, primarily a pass catcher rather than a blocker and generally an excellent TE.
He caught on average 71% of his targets over his career and 7.6 yards per target. That completion percentage is slightly above what a good QB in this period averages. Tony Romo's lifetime completion percentage is 65%, for example. and an average yards per attempt of 7.9 yards. Witten was targeted roughly 120x per season in his prime, so he helped Tony Romo complete maybe 7-8 extra passes over the course of a season vs an average alternative target, with a mild negative in yardage (maybe negative 50 yards over the course of a season).
Let's take a mid-level WR like Terrance Williams, to stick with the same offensive context. Williams, a decent but not exceptional WR, caught 62% of his targets for 9.0 yards per target in his Cowboys career. Williams was targeted less often than Witten, maybe 80-90x per season in the middle 2010s, and passing to him resulted in 3-4 incompletions than Romo's average per season but also added roughly 125-150 yards total in passing yardage.
So which has more impact on the passing offense? A HoF level TE like Witten or a decent starting WR like Williams? The answer isn't obvious to me.
So to get this out of the way: yes, I know there are many things that a TE does that are not statistically measurable, at least easy. And I know my analysis above is simplistic. But the above - which all comes from the same set so it should be comparable - just quantifies my intuition about the TE position.
A Hall of Famer like Witten or an average starting WR? I'd rather have Witten, sure, but they don't have monumental differences in impact.
Some quick thoughts...
Why do you think Witten was targeted so much more frequently in their primes, especially if there was actually a yardage benefit to throwing to Williams per your stats above?
Also, I thought your question was whether TEs are difference makers for building contending teams, but your stats only reflect the the passing aspect. Presumably a contending team wants to run the ball well too and I don't think its a stretch to say Witten provided exponentially more impact to the running aspect of Dallas than did Williams. While at the same time still being "comparable" to Williams in the passing aspect per your assessment.
it's hard to ignore the simple fact if Engram had better hands the Giants probably win 2 or 3 more games.
and he can't block. How is that not a difference maker?
Now, imagine Engram could block like a Gronk, Kittle, or Gonzalez and you don't see how a player like that can make a difference?
If your point is more you wouldn't draft one in the first or top 10 or something like that, you might have a better case, but absolutely a TE CAN be a difference maker.
Jason Witten.
But, to your point, teams have won without a signature TE. More common for a WR to be the difference maker. Supply of TEs limited as well.
I don't see a real argument that a TE can't be a difference maker. Compare a season of Kevin Boss vs. Brandon Myers. There's a big difference.
Kelce
Graham prime
Cook
Witten
Tony G
Gronk
Kittle
Waller
You want to keep going ? A good tight end changes around an entire offense. Occupies safeties and linebackers, creates mismatches oh and it helps when they can block in the run game.
I’ll start a thread. “I don’t think a QB is a difference maker. I’m open to listening”
THe 49ers wouldn't have made it to the Super Bowl without George Kittle.
The Pats had Gronk.
The Chiefs have Kelce.
I think it's more of anomaly teams are successful b/c of the TE than in spite of it.
A good TE catches everything thrown his way, isn't afraid to go up the seam, can find the soft spot in zone, and ideally can win the 50/50 balls. While also adding in pass protection.
Many 1st round TE's don't live up to their draft position though.
Even Eric Ebron, who has had a decent career, picked #10, before guys like......Aaron Donald, Odell Beckham, Jr., Kyle Fuller, Zack Martin, Taylor Lewan, Ryan Shazier, C.J. Mosley. I would think Detroit would like a do over on that one.
In today's game, it seems to me that a lot of the role of TE has moved to the small, quick twitch, slot WR's. I think maybe the Pat's started this trend??
Link - ( New Window )
Although I fundamentally agree with cosmic, this other salient point is accurate.
Boss/Ballard above average?
A bit of an odd Original Post.
I would think the answer is yes, they can make a difference but are not a requirement.
If you want to relate it to current NYG situation, I would suggest to you that a good TE would make a very big difference. We have a team with average at best WRs, a young QB struggling to find reliable target in the passing game, and particularly one that can play above the rim in the end zone so the team can score more points.
Throw in the fact the Giants like to scheme their rushing plays with in-line blockers on the move, and a good two-way TE could make a world of difference.
Cosmic - why do you think not?
Top TE are used on the move in the passing game much more than in the past.
There are not 5 guys in the league today who can block and catch
Gronk, Kelce, Kittle, Ertz
If it was easy to find these guys, everyone would have them. They are not easy to find
this is exactly where TEs are difference makers: extending drives. they do it by blocking on first down runs and finding holes in the defense on 3rd and long. a two way TE can make the offense much more efficient.
the question is at 11 do you take the 3rd best WR or the best TE. i do think we'll find a difference maker at 11.
one thing about being a bad team is that the delta between the talents of the incumbent and the replacement is usually greater than that of a good team. i expect us to fix a couple of big holes tis offseason and be at least .500 next year. playoffs in 2022 at the latest.
Here's one stat-driven way of looking at it. Let's take Jason Witten, primarily a pass catcher rather than a blocker and generally an excellent TE.
He caught on average 71% of his targets over his career and 7.6 yards per target. That completion percentage is slightly above what a good QB in this period averages. Tony Romo's lifetime completion percentage is 65%, for example. and an average yards per attempt of 7.9 yards. Witten was targeted roughly 120x per season in his prime, so he helped Tony Romo complete maybe 7-8 extra passes over the course of a season vs an average alternative target, with a mild negative in yardage (maybe negative 50 yards over the course of a season).
Let's take a mid-level WR like Terrance Williams, to stick with the same offensive context. Williams, a decent but not exceptional WR, caught 62% of his targets for 9.0 yards per target in his Cowboys career. Williams was targeted less often than Witten, maybe 80-90x per season in the middle 2010s, and passing to him resulted in 3-4 incompletions than Romo's average per season but also added roughly 125-150 yards total in passing yardage.
So which has more impact on the passing offense? A HoF level TE like Witten or a decent starting WR like Williams? The answer isn't obvious to me.
So to get this out of the way: yes, I know there are many things that a TE does that are not statistically measurable, at least easy. And I know my analysis above is simplistic. But the above - which all comes from the same set so it should be comparable - just quantifies my intuition about the TE position.
A Hall of Famer like Witten or an average starting WR? I'd rather have Witten, sure, but they don't have monumental differences in impact.
This post was really more motivated by the prospect of drafting Pitts. Would Pitts, who I think is an exceptional prospect, really get us closer to a Lombardi trophy? Eh.
Winslow, Gonzalez, Gates, Gronkowski, Ditka, Sharpe, Newsome, Witten, Graham.....
I would say a Good/Great makes a huge difference especially when it comes to moving the chains and keeping the ball.
It seems that it takes TEs a few years to acclimate to the league and figure things out - maybe more than any other position on the field.
Interesting stat - that would explain why McAdoo's offense was a wreck.
If the commit a bigger more physical LB on him to stop a potential run they lose that force elsewhere and our TE can and should win 1 on 1 blocking matchups more than 50/60% of the time. But, they also need to have someone wtaching just in case he releases as that more physical LB on the line is not likely going to be able to cover him. At the very least it makes a defense have to think more.
EE is an average receiver (hands wise) and is very average to below average blocker. His size (physicality to size) is average as well.
A two way TE is a difference maker to an offense not necessarily to his stat lines.
Here's one stat-driven way of looking at it. Let's take Jason Witten, primarily a pass catcher rather than a blocker and generally an excellent TE.
He caught on average 71% of his targets over his career and 7.6 yards per target. That completion percentage is slightly above what a good QB in this period averages. Tony Romo's lifetime completion percentage is 65%, for example. and an average yards per attempt of 7.9 yards. Witten was targeted roughly 120x per season in his prime, so he helped Tony Romo complete maybe 7-8 extra passes over the course of a season vs an average alternative target, with a mild negative in yardage (maybe negative 50 yards over the course of a season).
Let's take a mid-level WR like Terrance Williams, to stick with the same offensive context. Williams, a decent but not exceptional WR, caught 62% of his targets for 9.0 yards per target in his Cowboys career. Williams was targeted less often than Witten, maybe 80-90x per season in the middle 2010s, and passing to him resulted in 3-4 incompletions than Romo's average per season but also added roughly 125-150 yards total in passing yardage.
So which has more impact on the passing offense? A HoF level TE like Witten or a decent starting WR like Williams? The answer isn't obvious to me.
So to get this out of the way: yes, I know there are many things that a TE does that are not statistically measurable, at least easy. And I know my analysis above is simplistic. But the above - which all comes from the same set so it should be comparable - just quantifies my intuition about the TE position.
A Hall of Famer like Witten or an average starting WR? I'd rather have Witten, sure, but they don't have monumental differences in impact.
Some quick thoughts...
Why do you think Witten was targeted so much more frequently in their primes, especially if there was actually a yardage benefit to throwing to Williams per your stats above?
Also, I thought your question was whether TEs are difference makers for building contending teams, but your stats only reflect the the passing aspect. Presumably a contending team wants to run the ball well too and I don't think its a stretch to say Witten provided exponentially more impact to the running aspect of Dallas than did Williams. While at the same time still being "comparable" to Williams in the passing aspect per your assessment.
thoughts?
and he can't block. How is that not a difference maker?
Now, imagine Engram could block like a Gronk, Kittle, or Gonzalez and you don't see how a player like that can make a difference?
If your point is more you wouldn't draft one in the first or top 10 or something like that, you might have a better case, but absolutely a TE CAN be a difference maker.
I think the Giants were much better against TEs this year than in previous years.