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Do you lump the 2020 Giants with the results of 2017-19?

Sean : 1/17/2021 9:26 am
I was reading through the playoff thread yesterday and as you could expect, the recent results of the Giants came up. It can’t be disputed, the Giants are 51-86 since Hurricane Sandy and more recently, 18-46 since their last playoff season in 2016. There is no defense of it, this is arguably the worst stretch of NYG football, ever. I wasn’t around for the 70’s, but you get the point.

With all that said, I draw a line in the sand after the 2019 season. Maybe I’m naive or overly hopeful, but 2020 felt different to me. Prior to the season, most on BBI felt this was a 3-4 win team tops, well they finished 6-10 which was far better than most here believed. Imagine saying this team would finish 6-10 after starting 1-7, any poster making that claim would have been mocked. So, why doesn’t it deserve credit? Why do we need to continue referencing 2018/2019 when discussing the Giants?

For me, I view January 2020 forward as a clean slate. And I guess that’s where I’m different. Any decision which was impacted by Eli’s presence is no longer relevant.

From all accounts, it appears that Judge has the makings of a good coach. Based on his interviews this week, it also appears that he has an influence on personnel. And, regardless of what you think of DG - I think most here would admit that DG/Judge seem more philosophically aligned than DG/Shurmur. The 2020 offseason was one of their best in recent years.

So, it comes down to whether you view 2020 as a reset, which I do. I don’t see how lumping in decisions made with Eli here as relevant to today’s Giants. If you do lump in 2018/2019 when discussing the current Giants, then I assume you think nothing has changed for the good.

Lastly, the Eagles were often praised as an analytically, forward thinking team. They won a recent SB in 2017, but haven’t sustained the success. The front office meddles and wanted to control Pederson’s staff. If you believe reports, Lurie is pushing Wentz on potential candidates. Roseman’s draft have been a disaster. Are they still the model franchise to follow which most of the analytically driven NFL media would have had you think in 2017-2019? I say all this to make the point that I think it is overblown when fans say the Giants can’t win with their current front office.

In short, the Giants made a lot of shitty decisions with Eli in mind. Eli is now retired, Judge looks promising & as of 2020, the operation seems to have improved. I view 2020 as a clean slate.
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RE: Ever hopeful because of a new coach  
Sean : 1/17/2021 10:24 am : link
In comment 15125276 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
and putting a lot of faith in him being the next Lombardi. Objectively, this team was no different than McAdoo's first year. We put in a raw rookie HC, spent heavily on defensive free agents because they thought the offense would be fine, got career years out of half the defensive players and went 6-10 in a division that sent a team to the playoffs with a losing record for only the 5th time in 38 years. We were the same 2-8 outside the division we were the year before under Shurmur.

I'm not seeing the reason not to lump this team in with the rest. I can see the team "fixing" the offense (again) thinking the defense is fine and having the defense shit the bed when guys who had huge years revert to form, the other teams in the division aren't complete shit, and we are back next year at this time with a 6-10 record.


I know you aren’t impressed with Judge. Is there a head coach you would have hired? It seems like anyone who isn’t Coughlin you have a strong disdain for from Reese to McAdoo to Shurmur, Judge & Gettleman.
How about looking at 2020 as the beginning of the rebuild?  
cosmicj : 1/17/2021 10:25 am : link
New coaching staff that is just clearly better than preceding ones. DG actually had a solid offseason. Taking a quality OT and improving the OL generally is a good way to lay the groundwork for the team’s next franchise QB, whom we will acquire in 2022 or 2023.

Sure, the drafting and decisionmaking in 2018 and 2019 look like a complete fiasco. We just have to put it behind us as two wasted years and look to the future.
RE: RE: Be more specific.  
eclipz928 : 1/17/2021 10:25 am : link
In comment 15125275 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 15125264 eclipz928 said:


Quote:


What decisions did the Giants make with regard to Eli that they wouldn't have otherwise made with another QB in mind?



Well, for one Saquon. I think had Eli retired after 2017 there is no way Saquon would have been drafted. Darnold likely would have been the pick imo.

Absent any hindsight, do you believe that drafting Darnold instead of Barkley would have been the correct move for the Giants at that time?
RE: RE: Be more specific.  
DannyDimes8 : 1/17/2021 10:31 am : link
In comment 15125275 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 15125264 eclipz928 said:


Quote:


What decisions did the Giants make with regard to Eli that they wouldn't have otherwise made with another QB in mind?



Well, for one Saquon. I think had Eli retired after 2017 there is no way Saquon would have been drafted. Darnold likely would have been the pick imo.

Retired? He should’ve been released after that debacle but we all know Jawn Mara lacks the wherewithal to make the obvious decision
What owner runs it back with a 38 year old QB coming off a 13 loss season
Jawn Mara should sell the team if he’s going to operate at that level of incompetence
RE: Ever hopeful because of a new coach  
DannyDimes8 : 1/17/2021 10:35 am : link
In comment 15125276 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
and putting a lot of faith in him being the next Lombardi. Objectively, this team was no different than McAdoo's first year. We put in a raw rookie HC, spent heavily on defensive free agents because they thought the offense would be fine, got career years out of half the defensive players and went 6-10 in a division that sent a team to the playoffs with a losing record for only the 5th time in 38 years. We were the same 2-8 outside the division we were the year before under Shurmur.

I'm not seeing the reason not to lump this team in with the rest. I can see the team "fixing" the offense (again) thinking the defense is fine and having the defense shit the bed when guys who had huge years revert to form, the other teams in the division aren't complete shit, and we are back next year at this time with a 6-10 record.

Ben Mcadoo first season in New York he went 11-5 and went to the playoffs In Joe Judge 1st season he went 6-10 with the 31st ranked offense
eclipz928  
Sean : 1/17/2021 10:37 am : link
I’d imagine Darnold would have performed very similar to Jones and we’d be debating his prospects after three seasons. I don’t consider Darnold a bust, but I doubt he would perform any better than he has with the Jets.
I think Judge is the real deal  
UConn4523 : 1/17/2021 10:41 am : link
so for me there is pre and post Judge.
RE: Yep let’s pretend 2017-2019 never happened  
djm : 1/17/2021 10:44 am : link
In comment 15125225 DannyDimes8 said:
Quote:
Whatever helps you sleep at night


Brilliant take.
RE: I think Judge is the real deal  
Sean : 1/17/2021 10:59 am : link
In comment 15125312 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
so for me there is pre and post Judge.


That’s how I feel. Head coach is more important than general manager in the NFL and it isn’t close.
In addition..  
Sean : 1/17/2021 10:59 am : link
What is a team that won with a brilliant front office and what was considered a subpar coaching staff? I can’t think of any.
RE: Ever hopeful because of a new coach  
bw in dc : 1/17/2021 11:15 am : link
In comment 15125276 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
and putting a lot of faith in him being the next Lombardi. Objectively, this team was no different than McAdoo's first year. We put in a raw rookie HC, spent heavily on defensive free agents because they thought the offense would be fine, got career years out of half the defensive players and went 6-10 in a division that sent a team to the playoffs with a losing record for only the 5th time in 38 years. We were the same 2-8 outside the division we were the year before under Shurmur.


These are all valid takes.

I was never very fond of McAdoo - although I think he was an unfortunate fall guy - and thought Shurmur was over his head as a HC. But I think Judge has acquitted himself very nicely as a HC. The games seem better managed and organized. And there appears to be real buy in. So at least from a coaching perspective, the team seems in good hands. (I am still very dubious about Gettleman still keeping his GM and having influence. I am not buying for one second that the traditional Giants paradigm has changed. NFW.)

Now, whether that momentum can be sustained going forward remains to be seen. But this is the best I’ve felt about a coaching staff, particularly Graham, in a long, long time...
They decided to continue the Gettlemen era  
UberAlias : 1/17/2021 11:19 am : link
So yes. DG gets another shot with a new coach, but it’s his team. He got rid of the very one else. Everyone here is at his hand.
.  
GiantEgo : 1/17/2021 11:20 am : link
I often get the feeling that it's not the New York Giants that have some folks here constantly upset.
......  
Route 9 : 1/17/2021 11:40 am : link
I lump 2020 with 2012-present.

One playoff showing in 10 years? Pitiful state.
I tend to believe  
Bones : 1/17/2021 11:40 am : link
The Giants have turned the corner, or at least rounded the corner, and I would not lump them in with the 2017 - 2019 teams because of Judge, OL building blocks, and our defense that is almost as good as the 2016 team. That progress can easily be stunted if we weaken our DL and make poor draft decisions. I am hopeful, but think we are further away from being an even .500 team than many on this board believe. I think we are still 3 or 4/years away.
Luckily we have Archives  
chuckydee9 : 1/17/2021 11:43 am : link
and we can see that most people expected this team to be 6-8 win team.. then you consider that when these predictions were made no one expected NFC east to be this bad.. this is the worst division I have ever seen.. and to think that we had such easy wins on our schedule and we still only won 6 games.. I am sorry your whole premise is wrong..
Record Prediction - ( New Window )
RE: Luckily we have Archives  
Big Blue '56 : 1/17/2021 11:59 am : link
In comment 15125374 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
and we can see that most people expected this team to be 6-8 win team.. then you consider that when these predictions were made no one expected NFC east to be this bad.. this is the worst division I have ever seen.. and to think that we had such easy wins on our schedule and we still only won 6 games.. I am sorry your whole premise is wrong.. Record Prediction - ( New Window )


My one and only prediction was the worst of them all..I said I believed there would be NO SEASON and at best, they’d play a few games then cancel the balance of the season. Good thing I never bet.

😎
RE: eclipz928  
eclipz928 : 1/17/2021 1:00 pm : link
In comment 15125305 Sean said:
Quote:
I’d imagine Darnold would have performed very similar to Jones and we’d be debating his prospects after three seasons. I don’t consider Darnold a bust, but I doubt he would perform any better than he has with the Jets.

Ok. For the record I don't disagree with you on this particular point about Saquon and Darnold, but I disagree on the larger idea that this season should be divorced from the previous two. Mainly because it sounds like you're constructing a narrative that DG had his hands tied by decisions coming from the top regarding the retention of Eli and subsequently Shurmur.

A lot of mistakes made in the previous two years have had real impact and consequences on the team this season (and will continue to going in to next season), and I don't see too many examples outside of the one mentioned where decisions were misguided by misplaced trust in Eli's ability to still perform.

Credit DG and the front office for seeming to find the right compliment of coaches this time around, but the good has to be taken with the bad and a more competent approach to personnel would have yielded even better results by this point even under the false premise that Eli still had more in the tank at the start of it all.
The DAL game  
mittenedman : 1/17/2021 1:09 pm : link
week 17 was a quality win.

This is what I hate about looking at records and making sweeping statements. The Cowboys were playing well and it was a Playoff game for both teams, and a division game.

The Giants won with Daniel Jones gutting through a hamstring and ankle injury.

If you had said the Giants would lose Barkley in week 2, lose Jones for a stretch and still go 6-10, I doubt many would've believed it. All that said - it's time to win next year. A non-playoff season would be a disappointment.
What happens if we’re in the same position next year?  
UberAlias : 1/17/2021 1:30 pm : link
Low roster talent, 5-6 wins, and still a lot of question marks about Daniel Jones? Are we still sitting here saying it was a new start, the arrow is pointing up, and go forward with DG and DJ?
you can't  
Enzo : 1/17/2021 1:32 pm : link
possibly lump 2020 in with the previous years. After all, we hired FOUR computer guys in 2020.
RE: RE: Yep let’s pretend 2017-2019 never happened  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/17/2021 1:32 pm : link
In comment 15125227 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15125225 DannyDimes8 said:


Quote:


Whatever helps you sleep at night



Joe Judge wasn’t here. Nor was Graham. Or Garrett..JFC!!!

Fair point, but we did have a coaching change during that 2017-19 stretch, and when we handed the reins from McAdoo to Shurmur, there were plenty of fans that found optimism in that change as well.

I am a Joe Judge believer, so I want to make sure this doesn't come across as negativity for the sake of negativity, but until the actual results change for the better, I still think it's more of the same.

My POV right now is that Judge has to overcome a dysfunctional organizational dynamic that his previous two predecessors were not able to. He seems to have a stronger character and better leadership skills, as well as a better coaching staff surrounding him. Those are qualities that will be important in taking the next step to actually having a winning program.

But until we actually see a real winning program on the field, I don't know how anyone can draw a line between 2019 and 2020. Let's not forget that McAdoo won 11 - ELEVEN - games his first year, with a team that stunk the year before and quit on him the year after. If we had this exact conversation four years ago, many fans would justifiably point to McAdoo as a turning point in bringing the Giants back to relevance.

The next few years will determine whether we've actually turned the corner. Could anyone have predicted in January of 2017 that the Giants would quit on McAdoo less than a year after he led them to the playoffs as a rookie HC? Could anyone have imagined that the historically staid Giants would undergo an organizational upheaval that they had resisted for most of the franchise's history? And with that so recently in the rear view mirror, can anyone be 100% confident that Judge is truly different than McAdoo was at this same stage?

Moral victories that "feel different" are still losses, and we're still among the worst franchises in the NFL over the past four years, and we'll remain there until the results on the field dictate otherwise, IMO. If we are continuing to move in the right direction and actually post a winning record next year and the year after, then this past season should absolutely be considered a building block that represented the shift in the team's trajectory. But until then, this is just optimism that ignores what we've seen over the past few years.
RE: How about looking at 2020 as the beginning of the rebuild?  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/17/2021 1:39 pm : link
In comment 15125283 cosmicj said:
Quote:
New coaching staff that is just clearly better than preceding ones. DG actually had a solid offseason. Taking a quality OT and improving the OL generally is a good way to lay the groundwork for the team’s next franchise QB, whom we will acquire in 2022 or 2023.

Sure, the drafting and decisionmaking in 2018 and 2019 look like a complete fiasco. We just have to put it behind us as two wasted years and look to the future.

I'm sorry, but that's crap.

If 2020 was the start of the rebuild, what was 2019? They drafted a QB with their top draft pick and inserted him into the lineup early in the season. Even if you want to toss 2018 as a failed experiment to try to reload instead of rebuild, there is absolutely no way to claim that 2019 was not the start of the rebuild.

That's simply a weak excuse to try to avoid criticizing DG for a mediocre offseason that year while giving him credit for a significantly better offseason heading into this year. And if you're trying to claim that 2020 is the start of the rebuild because it's the foundation of the roster that the NEXT QB will inherit, then there's absolutely no way to justify keeping DG to choose that next QB, and hardly a way to justify allowing him to build the foundation that the next GM will have to insert the QB successor into.
FYI - DannyDimes8 is a dupe with two active accounts  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/17/2021 1:50 pm : link
that were both deleted today


Gatorade Dunk  
Sean : 1/17/2021 1:54 pm : link
I don’t care that Jones was drafted in 2019, Eli was the week 1 starter and his presence impacted decisions.
Yes I do.  
The_Boss : 1/17/2021 2:01 pm : link
-
If you did this thread after Parcell’s  
Daniel in MI : 1/17/2021 2:04 pm : link
First year, people would be saying the same stuff. Only won 3, regressed from where we were, Simms sux, back to the 70s with just a flash in the pan from the strong D under a coach we lost to college, ffs. Management isn’t sure we got the guy. He talks a good game but where are the Ws!?

We don’t know if this is a continuation or a break. We won’t know for a few years. Feels to me like a break, but we’ll see if we make progress, stay the same, or regress. I saw better play, better player development, better leadership under the most adverse conditions.

In a few years we’ll see that this was either the start of a break from the losing or just a continuation.
Part of the problem is  
bluepepper : 1/17/2021 2:08 pm : link
we never just make a clean break and start over so it's hard to date the rebuild. Been that way for the last 7-8 years. Fire the DC one year the OC the next then the HC but keep the GM then finally the HC and GM both but keep the aging QB and then two years later only the HC again.

Maybe that's Mara's strategy. He can always proclaim the rebuild just started and the fans need to give it time.
RE: What happens if we’re in the same position next year?  
LBH15 : 1/17/2021 2:14 pm : link
In comment 15125458 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Low roster talent, 5-6 wins, and still a lot of question marks about Daniel Jones? Are we still sitting here saying it was a new start, the arrow is pointing up, and go forward with DG and DJ?


I guess, presumably something will happen to give certain posters justification that 2021 can now be considered the first year.

Seems like a whole lot of nonsense just to keep swiping dirt under the rug for previous bad years from the GM and/or the team.

But if that's what is needed for fans to feel better about the team then, by all means, pursue it.
RE: RE: What happens if we’re in the same position next year?  
Old Blue : 1/17/2021 2:22 pm : link
In comment 15125518 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15125458 UberAlias said:


Quote:


Low roster talent, 5-6 wins, and still a lot of question marks about Daniel Jones? Are we still sitting here saying it was a new start, the arrow is pointing up, and go forward with DG and DJ?



I guess, presumably something will happen to give certain posters justification that 2021 can now be considered the first year.

Seems like a whole lot of nonsense just to keep swiping dirt under the rug for previous bad years from the GM and/or the team.

But if that's what is needed for fans to feel better about the team then, by all means, pursue it.


Let’s not get to exited about getting 6 wins in a watered down league, and 4 of those wins coming against the worst div of all time in NFL history.
As for me I am feeling very positive with Judge at the helm  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/17/2021 2:50 pm : link
and achieving a 4-2 division record and a 5-3 record in the second half of the season. In fact color me as pleasantly surprised. I didn't think the Giants could do better than 3-13 this year, and I certainly didn't think the defense would be as good as it evolved over the course of the season.

I saw many things this season that really gave me cause for hope. This staff was working with a lot of major talent holes on the team and they over performed. The team improved over the course of the year, especially on defense. There were a bunch of games lost earlier in the season that could have gone either way. Five in particular that standout: the Bears game, the Rams game, the first Cowboys game, the first Eagles game, and the Bucs game.. it was a real possibility that the Giants could have gone 6-0 in the division and been 10-6 or 11-5.

Building off of that and with personale improvements I see 10-6 and 11-5 being very reachable goals next year. If the Giants add a true 2nd corner, a true #1 WR, and an impact edge rusher that may be enough to win the division and go at least 1 round into the playoffs. Depth wise, if they add a ground and pounder RB ala Freeman (and I don't think Gallman fits that bill), Saquon stays healthy, and Engram somehow gets his head out of his ass (or is replaced with a competent TE), they will be serious contenders. I see all this as very doable right now between the draft and FA --

the only real questions are:
- can/or should they hold onto Tomlinson, or do they have/or can they get an adequate replacement for him;
- are Carter and Ximenes going to play and will they step up into the players we need them to be
- Is McKinney the real deal that he started looking like at the end of the season
- can the O-line take it to the next level and will Solder be cut (given the cap is lowering I think he has to be)

my affirmative contentions that may be controversial to some on here:
- I would keep Zeitler
- I would keep Engram and get him a sports psychologist because he does have tantalizing ability
- I would sign a premium CB in FA or upper level mid-range one
- I would cut Tate and get a different and taller hands WR in FA.
- I would cut Flemming, start Thomas and Peart at tackle next season and both sign another swing Tackle in FA and draft a Tackle in the mid rounds
- draft ER Rousseau, ER Kwity Paye or CB Caleb Farley in Rd 1
- draft 6'3" WR Terrace Marshall Jr. or 6'4" WR Tamorrion Terry in Rd 2
- draft DT Joshua Kaindoh, DT Tedarrell Slaton or DT Jaelan Phillips in Rd 3
- draft OT Walker Little or OT Liam Eichenberg in Rd 4

This is my view

Go Giants!
Nice work gidie.  
Big Blue '56 : 1/17/2021 2:57 pm : link
I was pleased with McKinney who many felt was the best S in the draft. Missing virtually the entire season and performing as he did was extremely encouraging given the circumstances..
RE: As for me I am feeling very positive with Judge at the helm  
Old Blue : 1/17/2021 2:58 pm : link
In comment 15125567 gidiefor said:
Quote:
and achieving a 4-2 division record and a 5-3 record in the second half of the season. In fact color me as pleasantly surprised. I didn't think the Giants could do better than 3-13 this year, and I certainly didn't think the defense would be as good as it evolved over the course of the season.

I saw many things this season that really gave me cause for hope. This staff was working with a lot of major talent holes on the team and they over performed. The team improved over the course of the year, especially on defense. There were a bunch of games lost earlier in the season that could have gone either way. Five in particular that standout: the Bears game, the Rams game, the first Cowboys game, the first Eagles game, and the Bucs game.. it was a real possibility that the Giants could have gone 6-0 in the division and been 10-6 or 11-5.

Building off of that and with personale improvements I see 10-6 and 11-5 being very reachable goals next year. If the Giants add a true 2nd corner, a true #1 WR, and an impact edge rusher that may be enough to win the division and go at least 1 round into the playoffs. Depth wise, if they add a ground and pounder RB ala Freeman (and I don't think Gallman fits that bill), Saquon stays healthy, and Engram somehow gets his head out of his ass (or is replaced with a competent TE), they will be serious contenders. I see all this as very doable right now between the draft and FA --

the only real questions are:
- can/or should they hold onto Tomlinson, or do they have/or can they get an adequate replacement for him;
- are Carter and Ximenes going to play and will they step up into the players we need them to be
- Is McKinney the real deal that he started looking like at the end of the season
- can the O-line take it to the next level and will Solder be cut (given the cap is lowering I think he has to be)

my affirmative contentions that may be controversial to some on here:
- I would keep Zeitler
- I would keep Engram and get him a sports psychologist because he does have tantalizing ability
- I would sign a premium CB in FA or upper level mid-range one
- I would cut Tate and get a different and taller hands WR in FA.
- I would cut Flemming, start Thomas and Peart at tackle next season and both sign another swing Tackle in FA and draft a Tackle in the mid rounds
- draft ER Rousseau, ER Kwity Paye or CB Caleb Farley in Rd 1
- draft 6'3" WR Terrace Marshall Jr. or 6'4" WR Tamorrion Terry in Rd 2
- draft DT Joshua Kaindoh, DT Tedarrell Slaton or DT Jaelan Phillips in Rd 3
- draft OT Walker Little or OT Liam Eichenberg in Rd 4

This is my view

Go Giants!


The Giants finished 1-3.
RE: RE: As for me I am feeling very positive with Judge at the helm  
Big Blue '56 : 1/17/2021 3:02 pm : link
In comment 15125583 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15125567 gidiefor said:


Quote:


and achieving a 4-2 division record and a 5-3 record in the second half of the season. In fact color me as pleasantly surprised. I didn't think the Giants could do better than 3-13 this year, and I certainly didn't think the defense would be as good as it evolved over the course of the season.

I saw many things this season that really gave me cause for hope. This staff was working with a lot of major talent holes on the team and they over performed. The team improved over the course of the year, especially on defense. There were a bunch of games lost earlier in the season that could have gone either way. Five in particular that standout: the Bears game, the Rams game, the first Cowboys game, the first Eagles game, and the Bucs game.. it was a real possibility that the Giants could have gone 6-0 in the division and been 10-6 or 11-5.

Building off of that and with personale improvements I see 10-6 and 11-5 being very reachable goals next year. If the Giants add a true 2nd corner, a true #1 WR, and an impact edge rusher that may be enough to win the division and go at least 1 round into the playoffs. Depth wise, if they add a ground and pounder RB ala Freeman (and I don't think Gallman fits that bill), Saquon stays healthy, and Engram somehow gets his head out of his ass (or is replaced with a competent TE), they will be serious contenders. I see all this as very doable right now between the draft and FA --

the only real questions are:
- can/or should they hold onto Tomlinson, or do they have/or can they get an adequate replacement for him;
- are Carter and Ximenes going to play and will they step up into the players we need them to be
- Is McKinney the real deal that he started looking like at the end of the season
- can the O-line take it to the next level and will Solder be cut (given the cap is lowering I think he has to be)

my affirmative contentions that may be controversial to some on here:
- I would keep Zeitler
- I would keep Engram and get him a sports psychologist because he does have tantalizing ability
- I would sign a premium CB in FA or upper level mid-range one
- I would cut Tate and get a different and taller hands WR in FA.
- I would cut Flemming, start Thomas and Peart at tackle next season and both sign another swing Tackle in FA and draft a Tackle in the mid rounds
- draft ER Rousseau, ER Kwity Paye or CB Caleb Farley in Rd 1
- draft 6'3" WR Terrace Marshall Jr. or 6'4" WR Tamorrion Terry in Rd 2
- draft DT Joshua Kaindoh, DT Tedarrell Slaton or DT Jaelan Phillips in Rd 3
- draft OT Walker Little or OT Liam Eichenberg in Rd 4

This is my view

Go Giants!



The Giants finished 1-3.


Sheesh, you know what gidie was getting at..They lost their first 5 games, were 1-7, won 4 in a row, lost 3 in a row..They finished 5-3, 1-3 or 1-0, it doesn’t matter how it’s couched..We’re building something. It’s a continual process. Get more tools, draft well..Optimism abounds imv
RE: RE: RE: As for me I am feeling very positive with Judge at the helm  
Old Blue : 1/17/2021 3:08 pm : link
In comment 15125588 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15125583 Old Blue said:


Quote:


In comment 15125567 gidiefor said:


Quote:


and achieving a 4-2 division record and a 5-3 record in the second half of the season. In fact color me as pleasantly surprised. I didn't think the Giants could do better than 3-13 this year, and I certainly didn't think the defense would be as good as it evolved over the course of the season.

I saw many things this season that really gave me cause for hope. This staff was working with a lot of major talent holes on the team and they over performed. The team improved over the course of the year, especially on defense. There were a bunch of games lost earlier in the season that could have gone either way. Five in particular that standout: the Bears game, the Rams game, the first Cowboys game, the first Eagles game, and the Bucs game.. it was a real possibility that the Giants could have gone 6-0 in the division and been 10-6 or 11-5.

Building off of that and with personale improvements I see 10-6 and 11-5 being very reachable goals next year. If the Giants add a true 2nd corner, a true #1 WR, and an impact edge rusher that may be enough to win the division and go at least 1 round into the playoffs. Depth wise, if they add a ground and pounder RB ala Freeman (and I don't think Gallman fits that bill), Saquon stays healthy, and Engram somehow gets his head out of his ass (or is replaced with a competent TE), they will be serious contenders. I see all this as very doable right now between the draft and FA --

the only real questions are:
- can/or should they hold onto Tomlinson, or do they have/or can they get an adequate replacement for him;
- are Carter and Ximenes going to play and will they step up into the players we need them to be
- Is McKinney the real deal that he started looking like at the end of the season
- can the O-line take it to the next level and will Solder be cut (given the cap is lowering I think he has to be)

my affirmative contentions that may be controversial to some on here:
- I would keep Zeitler
- I would keep Engram and get him a sports psychologist because he does have tantalizing ability
- I would sign a premium CB in FA or upper level mid-range one
- I would cut Tate and get a different and taller hands WR in FA.
- I would cut Flemming, start Thomas and Peart at tackle next season and both sign another swing Tackle in FA and draft a Tackle in the mid rounds
- draft ER Rousseau, ER Kwity Paye or CB Caleb Farley in Rd 1
- draft 6'3" WR Terrace Marshall Jr. or 6'4" WR Tamorrion Terry in Rd 2
- draft DT Joshua Kaindoh, DT Tedarrell Slaton or DT Jaelan Phillips in Rd 3
- draft OT Walker Little or OT Liam Eichenberg in Rd 4

This is my view

Go Giants!



The Giants finished 1-3.



Sheesh, you know what gidie was getting at..They lost their first 5 games, were 1-7, won 4 in a row, lost 3 in a row..They finished 5-3, 1-3 or 1-0, it doesn’t matter how it’s couched..We’re building something. It’s a continual process. Get more tools, draft well..Optimism abounds imv


The only thing we’re building is a 5 year losing streak, and with next years schedule looks more than likely even if the team was to get better.
Old Blue  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/17/2021 3:16 pm : link
I think you may be on the wrong thread -- there's a Giants sucking thread nearby -- that seems to fit your frame of mind. It would be nice if you talked some football instead of regaling us with grousing
RE: Old Blue  
Old Blue : 1/17/2021 3:45 pm : link
In comment 15125622 gidiefor said:
Quote:
I think you may be on the wrong thread -- there's a Giants sucking thread nearby -- that seems to fit your frame of mind. It would be nice if you talked some football instead of regaling us with grousing


I don’t wear my blue colored glasses all the time like some. I didn’t think a 5-11 team was having a big game against Dallas, and it was any big deal for a 6-10 team to make the playoffs. The O Line is Humpty Dumpty, and Peart, and SL is not going to put it together again like some, and I don’t think the team will ever be any good with DJ at QB like some do.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 1/17/2021 3:51 pm : link
Yes. While I like Judge a lot, I do not see a high ceiling on this team's core.
RE: RE: Old Blue  
Big Blue '56 : 1/17/2021 3:56 pm : link
In comment 15125680 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15125622 gidiefor said:


Quote:


I think you may be on the wrong thread -- there's a Giants sucking thread nearby -- that seems to fit your frame of mind. It would be nice if you talked some football instead of regaling us with grousing



I don’t wear my blue colored glasses all the time like some. I didn’t think a 5-11 team was having a big game against Dallas, and it was any big deal for a 6-10 team to make the playoffs. The O Line is Humpty Dumpty, and Peart, and SL is not going to put it together again like some, and I don’t think the team will ever be any good with DJ at QB like some do.


It’s your opinion and that’s fine. But stating stuff as though it’s fact is silly, imv
RE: RE: RE: Old Blue  
Old Blue : 1/17/2021 4:11 pm : link
In comment 15125717 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15125680 Old Blue said:


Quote:


In comment 15125622 gidiefor said:


Quote:


I think you may be on the wrong thread -- there's a Giants sucking thread nearby -- that seems to fit your frame of mind. It would be nice if you talked some football instead of regaling us with grousing



I don’t wear my blue colored glasses all the time like some. I didn’t think a 5-11 team was having a big game against Dallas, and it was any big deal for a 6-10 team to make the playoffs. The O Line is Humpty Dumpty, and Peart, and SL is not going to put it together again like some, and I don’t think the team will ever be any good with DJ at QB like some do.



It’s your opinion and that’s fine. But stating stuff as though it’s fact is silly, imv


The team was 6-10 this past year in one of the worst div in NFL history, and has had 4 losing seasons in a row. Those are facts. The O Line sucks, and I can’t see the team getting any better until thr O Line gets better, which I can’t see with the likes of Peart, and SL. The D got better last year, but now have 2 important players up for a new contract, and will lose at least one probably, and D still needs a edge rusher to get better. I would love to see them even get to 500 next year, but I just don’t see it.
Naive brother  
MtDizzle : 1/17/2021 4:49 pm : link
It happens. We all invest so much time money and emotion into this team that we can’t help but think things will right themselves and eventually work out. This team is suffering from an organizational failure and it stinks from the head on down. Ownership keeps those around him out of comfort instead of results. Complacency has infected this franchise and the fan base is not immune to it.
Opinions like Old Blue posted are fine  
LBH15 : 1/17/2021 4:55 pm : link
and he stated it like an opinion. And the reason you already know that is because the reader knows it isn’t fact.

Good lord.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Old Blue  
Big Blue '56 : 1/17/2021 5:07 pm : link
In comment 15125755 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15125717 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 15125680 Old Blue said:


Quote:


In comment 15125622 gidiefor said:


Quote:


I think you may be on the wrong thread -- there's a Giants sucking thread nearby -- that seems to fit your frame of mind. It would be nice if you talked some football instead of regaling us with grousing



I don’t wear my blue colored glasses all the time like some. I didn’t think a 5-11 team was having a big game against Dallas, and it was any big deal for a 6-10 team to make the playoffs. The O Line is Humpty Dumpty, and Peart, and SL is not going to put it together again like some, and I don’t think the team will ever be any good with DJ at QB like some do.



It’s your opinion and that’s fine. But stating stuff as though it’s fact is silly, imv



The team was 6-10 this past year in one of the worst div in NFL history, and has had 4 losing seasons in a row. Those are facts. The O Line sucks, and I can’t see the team getting any better until thr O Line gets better, which I can’t see with the likes of Peart, and SL. The D got better last year, but now have 2 important players up for a new contract, and will lose at least one probably, and D still needs a edge rusher to get better. I would love to see them even get to 500 next year, but I just don’t see it.


You mean your opinion is the OL sucks. We don’t KNOW that for sure as Gates, Thomas, Peart, Lemieux had their ups and downs but appeared to be more in sync as the year progressed, albeit Peart seemed to be physically laboring post covid..You believe the team needs an ER, yet that’s not the Belichick way. If Judge adopts BB’s scheme of strong up the middle and in the Secondary, you might not need an ER that’s all-world..The opinions you expressed I generally agree with.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Old Blue  
Old Blue : 1/17/2021 5:19 pm : link
In comment 15125948 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15125755 Old Blue said:


Quote:


In comment 15125717 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 15125680 Old Blue said:


Quote:


In comment 15125622 gidiefor said:


Quote:


I think you may be on the wrong thread -- there's a Giants sucking thread nearby -- that seems to fit your frame of mind. It would be nice if you talked some football instead of regaling us with grousing



I don’t wear my blue colored glasses all the time like some. I didn’t think a 5-11 team was having a big game against Dallas, and it was any big deal for a 6-10 team to make the playoffs. The O Line is Humpty Dumpty, and Peart, and SL is not going to put it together again like some, and I don’t think the team will ever be any good with DJ at QB like some do.



It’s your opinion and that’s fine. But stating stuff as though it’s fact is silly, imv



The team was 6-10 this past year in one of the worst div in NFL history, and has had 4 losing seasons in a row. Those are facts. The O Line sucks, and I can’t see the team getting any better until thr O Line gets better, which I can’t see with the likes of Peart, and SL. The D got better last year, but now have 2 important players up for a new contract, and will lose at least one probably, and D still needs a edge rusher to get better. I would love to see them even get to 500 next year, but I just don’t see it.



You mean your opinion is the OL sucks. We don’t KNOW that for sure as Gates, Thomas, Peart, Lemieux had their ups and downs but appeared to be more in sync as the year progressed, albeit Peart seemed to be physically laboring post covid..You believe the team needs an ER, yet that’s not the Belichick way. If Judge adopts BB’s scheme of strong up the middle and in the Secondary, you might not need an ER that’s all-world..The opinions you expressed I generally agree with.


👍

Gatorade  
cosmicj : 1/17/2021 6:32 pm : link
What are you going on about? I think DG should have been fired this month and was very disappointed when he wasn’t. His 2018 and 2019 talent acquisitions have been truly disappointing with a couple of exceptions. Because of that, I suggested viewing 2020 as the real beginning, not because the rebuild shouldn’t have started back in 2017, but because I like the talent acquisitions in 2020 and, together with the Judge hire, marks a real point where good decisions began to be made.
RE: RE: RE: Old Blue  
Debaser : 1/18/2021 9:03 am : link
In comment 15125717 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15125680 Old Blue said:


Quote:


In comment 15125622 gidiefor said:


Quote:


I think you may be on the wrong thread -- there's a Giants sucking thread nearby -- that seems to fit your frame of mind. It would be nice if you talked some football instead of regaling us with grousing



I don’t wear my blue colored glasses all the time like some. I didn’t think a 5-11 team was having a big game against Dallas, and it was any big deal for a 6-10 team to make the playoffs. The O Line is Humpty Dumpty, and Peart, and SL is not going to put it together again like some, and I don’t think the team will ever be any good with DJ at QB like some do.



It’s your opinion and that’s fine. But stating stuff as though it’s fact is silly, imv


Ah yes because it is highly possible for a team with QB that everyone thought the Giants were complete clowns for taking at 6. Then after a 12 TD season at the helm, let's bring everyone back another year and hope for a miracle and to win a super bowl. I mean yeah it is opinion and miracles do happen , I could also win the lotto next week too.
The jury is still out  
dpinzow : 1/18/2021 1:33 pm : link
we saw some improvement (4-2 in the division) but most of that was on the defensive side of the ball. The offense regressed a lot and will need a talent infusion this offseason.
The offense simply doesn't have playmakers  
SGMen : 1/18/2021 1:44 pm : link
I do see guys like Slayton improving a bit but he isn't a #1 and is a #2B type possibly, at best. Solid due to his speed but certainly no one to worry about much.

The OL has potential and that is huge. I have a feeling Solder retires. I just do. I think we hold onto Zeitler for one more year. But honestly, nothing would shock me outside of trading D. Jones!

I do like Judge a lot and think he has the "special thing" you need to succeed and motivate the troops.

What killed the Giants in 2020?
-New coaching staff and no real off-season & pre-season
-Injury to Barkley non-contact, hurt offense badly
-CB Baker leaving hole on team and being cut
-CB Beal and OT Solder taking COVID as both likely start
-Tough early schedule 0 - 4
-Backup QB very average at best, no real chance without playmakers.

However, this team was fairly healthy compared to many others including Dallas and Philly, IMHO anyway.
In short, yes.  
Matt M. : 1/18/2021 1:50 pm : link
This is a bad team and the organization has done a terrible job until proven otherwise.

Now, the longer answer is I believe this group will distance itself from the losing results and culture. So far, I have liked what I have seen and heard with Judge and believe he and his staff are the right one to move us pout of the darkness. 6 wins is still 6 wins. And, I never bought the moral victory thing when losing is a regular occurrence. But, now evaluating the team and season after it is over, I do think there is reason to be optimistic. I am just not willing to call it remotely close to a success when we lost double digit games.

It was all to easy to get caught up in playing a meaningful game as late as week 17, when the reality is that had far more to do with the division than this team. So, there is still a lot of work to be done. I think this group will get it done. But, I am not wholly confident until they look like a winning team and actually have won more games than they've lost.
Reese's jags vs. Gettleman's jags  
Debaser : 1/19/2021 4:38 am : link
wat is really the difference? I am still completely compelled by this whole Eli obsession and trying to pin a rebuild on him. As if Darnold or Jones didn't need an Oline that could block (they do so does Eli) ; they don't need receiver to throw to (they do so does Eli). They on't need a running game that can take the pressure of the blitz. They don't need a Defense that can rush a passer.

The real turning point on this team was 2012 and it was really Mara that said it was time "down size" and they got rid of Bradshaw and Jacobs and the others. They tried to go cheap and still retain Eli. It didn't work (not because of Eli). But because it was a really tricky thing to do. After years of failure they doubled down with Gettleman who is even worse than Reese I am convinced.
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