I was reading through the playoff thread yesterday and as you could expect, the recent results of the Giants came up. It can’t be disputed, the Giants are 51-86 since Hurricane Sandy and more recently, 18-46 since their last playoff season in 2016. There is no defense of it, this is arguably the worst stretch of NYG football, ever. I wasn’t around for the 70’s, but you get the point.
With all that said, I draw a line in the sand after the 2019 season. Maybe I’m naive or overly hopeful, but 2020 felt different to me. Prior to the season, most on BBI felt this was a 3-4 win team tops, well they finished 6-10 which was far better than most here believed. Imagine saying this team would finish 6-10 after starting 1-7, any poster making that claim would have been mocked. So, why doesn’t it deserve credit? Why do we need to continue referencing 2018/2019 when discussing the Giants?
For me, I view January 2020 forward as a clean slate. And I guess that’s where I’m different. Any decision which was impacted by Eli’s presence is no longer relevant.
From all accounts, it appears that Judge has the makings of a good coach. Based on his interviews this week, it also appears that he has an influence on personnel. And, regardless of what you think of DG - I think most here would admit that DG/Judge seem more philosophically aligned than DG/Shurmur. The 2020 offseason was one of their best in recent years.
So, it comes down to whether you view 2020 as a reset, which I do. I don’t see how lumping in decisions made with Eli here as relevant to today’s Giants. If you do lump in 2018/2019 when discussing the current Giants, then I assume you think nothing has changed for the good.
Lastly, the Eagles were often praised as an analytically, forward thinking team. They won a recent SB in 2017, but haven’t sustained the success. The front office meddles and wanted to control Pederson’s staff. If you believe reports, Lurie is pushing Wentz on potential candidates. Roseman’s draft have been a disaster. Are they still the model franchise to follow which most of the analytically driven NFL media would have had you think in 2017-2019? I say all this to make the point that I think it is overblown when fans say the Giants can’t win with their current front office.
In short, the Giants made a lot of shitty decisions with Eli in mind. Eli is now retired, Judge looks promising & as of 2020, the operation seems to have improved. I view 2020 as a clean slate.
Maybe 2020 shouldn't be looked at as a reset from Eli afterall. :-)
Joe Judge wasn’t here. Nor was Graham. Or Garrett..JFC!!!
My expectation is that Jones won't work out, and we are looking at addressing the position in 2022/2023. If/when that happens and it's done without Gettleman influencing the decision, then I'll feel like they have started a new project.
My expectation is that Jones won't work out, and we are looking at addressing the position in 2022/2023. If/when that happens and it's done without Gettleman influencing the decision, then I'll feel like they have started a new project.
So, your post about the first Philly game being an inflection point was premature to you now?
I have major doubts on Jones, but I’m okay with giving him a third year - I’d like to see a better backup brought in. The Giants haven’t committed to him beyond giving him the third year of his rookie deal.
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Whatever helps you sleep at night
Joe Judge wasn’t here. Nor was Graham. Or Garrett..JFC!!!
Keep polishing that turd, you all have already anointed Joe “31st ranked offense” Judge a winning coach despite his 6-10 record shame, some of you people never learn
Without the COURAGE to keep their original handles like many of us do
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Gettleman is still here, and so is the quarterback he selected. Until we see otherwise it looks like they are going to try to make it work with Jones.
My expectation is that Jones won't work out, and we are looking at addressing the position in 2022/2023. If/when that happens and it's done without Gettleman influencing the decision, then I'll feel like they have started a new project.
So, your post about the first Philly game being an inflection point was premature to you now?
I have major doubts on Jones, but I’m okay with giving him a third year - I’d like to see a better backup brought in. The Giants haven’t committed to him beyond giving him the third year of his rookie deal.
Unfortunately yeah I think it was. That was me being a hopeful fan.
I do think we have found a good coach, no doubt about it. And in that way 2020 was a major improvement. But until I see otherwise he's still working under the yoke of this front office.
I was really disappointed and disheartened by Gettleman being retained, and by the comments about wanting to retain Garrett. It just doesn't appear like they operate as a meritocracy.
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Without the COURAGE to keep their original handles like many of us do
This is my original name, you think I’m intimidated by the likes of you or your posse from the 1960s , please don’t flatter yourself. My opinion may not be popular but it’s usually factual and let’s face it you’ve been in this world long enough to know the truth hurts and often people make up fantasies to help avoid it
Like the 10 loss Giants are on the “right track” whatever that means
Another good post Sean.
Guy sucks. He should be gone.
Gettelman is an asshole. He's made some good decisions along with some really bad ones, and because the team is on a positive note after a 6-10 season, he keeps his job. I'm not mad about that, but nor am I happy, so I guess that puts me at more satisfied than not.
I can separate 2020 from 18 and 19, and hopefully Judge has a heavy influence in personnel decisions. Of course he does, but hopefully more so than what might be expected. Awesome that Patrick Graham is back and I am a fan of Judge.
Mara needs to take a huge step back, like, completely out of personnel and staff decisions. Garrett smells like Mara to me. How could anyone think he did a good job? He did not. Oh, wait, he opened up the offense after Kitchens did that for him when he was out with Covid.
Where is DJ's ceiling? Kirk Cousins? Andy Dalton? or is it Romo? or a poor-man's Steve Young? No one knows. Maybe he can be good with some kind of reliable deep threat receiver, and an imaginative play caller. The line is looking up, and Barkley will hopefully have defenses stacking the box, so hopefully Jones steps up.
Not thrilled, but not dejected. Awesome.
Well, for one Saquon. I think had Eli retired after 2017 there is no way Saquon would have been drafted. Darnold likely would have been the pick imo.
I'm not seeing the reason not to lump this team in with the rest. I can see the team "fixing" the offense (again) thinking the defense is fine and having the defense shit the bed when guys who had huge years revert to form, the other teams in the division aren't complete shit, and we are back next year at this time with a 6-10 record.
And then there are the drives (usually right after) where it looks like a practice squad QB was thrown out there in Danny's face, body and uniform.
I know not every QB runs out there drive after drive and runs a perfect drive....but I would like Danny to get to 75% or 80%.
Year three will be interesting...hopefully with a full off-season, Saquon back and some WR weapons in his arsenal.
I'm not seeing the reason not to lump this team in with the rest. I can see the team "fixing" the offense (again) thinking the defense is fine and having the defense shit the bed when guys who had huge years revert to form, the other teams in the division aren't complete shit, and we are back next year at this time with a 6-10 record.
I know you aren’t impressed with Judge. Is there a head coach you would have hired? It seems like anyone who isn’t Coughlin you have a strong disdain for from Reese to McAdoo to Shurmur, Judge & Gettleman.
Sure, the drafting and decisionmaking in 2018 and 2019 look like a complete fiasco. We just have to put it behind us as two wasted years and look to the future.
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What decisions did the Giants make with regard to Eli that they wouldn't have otherwise made with another QB in mind?
Well, for one Saquon. I think had Eli retired after 2017 there is no way Saquon would have been drafted. Darnold likely would have been the pick imo.
Absent any hindsight, do you believe that drafting Darnold instead of Barkley would have been the correct move for the Giants at that time?
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What decisions did the Giants make with regard to Eli that they wouldn't have otherwise made with another QB in mind?
Well, for one Saquon. I think had Eli retired after 2017 there is no way Saquon would have been drafted. Darnold likely would have been the pick imo.
Retired? He should’ve been released after that debacle but we all know Jawn Mara lacks the wherewithal to make the obvious decision
What owner runs it back with a 38 year old QB coming off a 13 loss season
Jawn Mara should sell the team if he’s going to operate at that level of incompetence
I'm not seeing the reason not to lump this team in with the rest. I can see the team "fixing" the offense (again) thinking the defense is fine and having the defense shit the bed when guys who had huge years revert to form, the other teams in the division aren't complete shit, and we are back next year at this time with a 6-10 record.
Ben Mcadoo first season in New York he went 11-5 and went to the playoffs In Joe Judge 1st season he went 6-10 with the 31st ranked offense
Brilliant take.
That’s how I feel. Head coach is more important than general manager in the NFL and it isn’t close.
These are all valid takes.
I was never very fond of McAdoo - although I think he was an unfortunate fall guy - and thought Shurmur was over his head as a HC. But I think Judge has acquitted himself very nicely as a HC. The games seem better managed and organized. And there appears to be real buy in. So at least from a coaching perspective, the team seems in good hands. (I am still very dubious about Gettleman still keeping his GM and having influence. I am not buying for one second that the traditional Giants paradigm has changed. NFW.)
Now, whether that momentum can be sustained going forward remains to be seen. But this is the best I’ve felt about a coaching staff, particularly Graham, in a long, long time...
One playoff showing in 10 years? Pitiful state.
Record Prediction - ( New Window )
My one and only prediction was the worst of them all..I said I believed there would be NO SEASON and at best, they’d play a few games then cancel the balance of the season. Good thing I never bet.
😎
Ok. For the record I don't disagree with you on this particular point about Saquon and Darnold, but I disagree on the larger idea that this season should be divorced from the previous two. Mainly because it sounds like you're constructing a narrative that DG had his hands tied by decisions coming from the top regarding the retention of Eli and subsequently Shurmur.
A lot of mistakes made in the previous two years have had real impact and consequences on the team this season (and will continue to going in to next season), and I don't see too many examples outside of the one mentioned where decisions were misguided by misplaced trust in Eli's ability to still perform.
Credit DG and the front office for seeming to find the right compliment of coaches this time around, but the good has to be taken with the bad and a more competent approach to personnel would have yielded even better results by this point even under the false premise that Eli still had more in the tank at the start of it all.
This is what I hate about looking at records and making sweeping statements. The Cowboys were playing well and it was a Playoff game for both teams, and a division game.
The Giants won with Daniel Jones gutting through a hamstring and ankle injury.
If you had said the Giants would lose Barkley in week 2, lose Jones for a stretch and still go 6-10, I doubt many would've believed it. All that said - it's time to win next year. A non-playoff season would be a disappointment.
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Whatever helps you sleep at night
Joe Judge wasn’t here. Nor was Graham. Or Garrett..JFC!!!
Fair point, but we did have a coaching change during that 2017-19 stretch, and when we handed the reins from McAdoo to Shurmur, there were plenty of fans that found optimism in that change as well.
I am a Joe Judge believer, so I want to make sure this doesn't come across as negativity for the sake of negativity, but until the actual results change for the better, I still think it's more of the same.
My POV right now is that Judge has to overcome a dysfunctional organizational dynamic that his previous two predecessors were not able to. He seems to have a stronger character and better leadership skills, as well as a better coaching staff surrounding him. Those are qualities that will be important in taking the next step to actually having a winning program.
But until we actually see a real winning program on the field, I don't know how anyone can draw a line between 2019 and 2020. Let's not forget that McAdoo won 11 - ELEVEN - games his first year, with a team that stunk the year before and quit on him the year after. If we had this exact conversation four years ago, many fans would justifiably point to McAdoo as a turning point in bringing the Giants back to relevance.
The next few years will determine whether we've actually turned the corner. Could anyone have predicted in January of 2017 that the Giants would quit on McAdoo less than a year after he led them to the playoffs as a rookie HC? Could anyone have imagined that the historically staid Giants would undergo an organizational upheaval that they had resisted for most of the franchise's history? And with that so recently in the rear view mirror, can anyone be 100% confident that Judge is truly different than McAdoo was at this same stage?
Moral victories that "feel different" are still losses, and we're still among the worst franchises in the NFL over the past four years, and we'll remain there until the results on the field dictate otherwise, IMO. If we are continuing to move in the right direction and actually post a winning record next year and the year after, then this past season should absolutely be considered a building block that represented the shift in the team's trajectory. But until then, this is just optimism that ignores what we've seen over the past few years.
Sure, the drafting and decisionmaking in 2018 and 2019 look like a complete fiasco. We just have to put it behind us as two wasted years and look to the future.
I'm sorry, but that's crap.
If 2020 was the start of the rebuild, what was 2019? They drafted a QB with their top draft pick and inserted him into the lineup early in the season. Even if you want to toss 2018 as a failed experiment to try to reload instead of rebuild, there is absolutely no way to claim that 2019 was not the start of the rebuild.
That's simply a weak excuse to try to avoid criticizing DG for a mediocre offseason that year while giving him credit for a significantly better offseason heading into this year. And if you're trying to claim that 2020 is the start of the rebuild because it's the foundation of the roster that the NEXT QB will inherit, then there's absolutely no way to justify keeping DG to choose that next QB, and hardly a way to justify allowing him to build the foundation that the next GM will have to insert the QB successor into.
We don’t know if this is a continuation or a break. We won’t know for a few years. Feels to me like a break, but we’ll see if we make progress, stay the same, or regress. I saw better play, better player development, better leadership under the most adverse conditions.
In a few years we’ll see that this was either the start of a break from the losing or just a continuation.
Maybe that's Mara's strategy. He can always proclaim the rebuild just started and the fans need to give it time.
I guess, presumably something will happen to give certain posters justification that 2021 can now be considered the first year.
Seems like a whole lot of nonsense just to keep swiping dirt under the rug for previous bad years from the GM and/or the team.
But if that's what is needed for fans to feel better about the team then, by all means, pursue it.
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Low roster talent, 5-6 wins, and still a lot of question marks about Daniel Jones? Are we still sitting here saying it was a new start, the arrow is pointing up, and go forward with DG and DJ?
I guess, presumably something will happen to give certain posters justification that 2021 can now be considered the first year.
Seems like a whole lot of nonsense just to keep swiping dirt under the rug for previous bad years from the GM and/or the team.
But if that's what is needed for fans to feel better about the team then, by all means, pursue it.
Let’s not get to exited about getting 6 wins in a watered down league, and 4 of those wins coming against the worst div of all time in NFL history.
I saw many things this season that really gave me cause for hope. This staff was working with a lot of major talent holes on the team and they over performed. The team improved over the course of the year, especially on defense. There were a bunch of games lost earlier in the season that could have gone either way. Five in particular that standout: the Bears game, the Rams game, the first Cowboys game, the first Eagles game, and the Bucs game.. it was a real possibility that the Giants could have gone 6-0 in the division and been 10-6 or 11-5.
Building off of that and with personale improvements I see 10-6 and 11-5 being very reachable goals next year. If the Giants add a true 2nd corner, a true #1 WR, and an impact edge rusher that may be enough to win the division and go at least 1 round into the playoffs. Depth wise, if they add a ground and pounder RB ala Freeman (and I don't think Gallman fits that bill), Saquon stays healthy, and Engram somehow gets his head out of his ass (or is replaced with a competent TE), they will be serious contenders. I see all this as very doable right now between the draft and FA --
the only real questions are:
- can/or should they hold onto Tomlinson, or do they have/or can they get an adequate replacement for him;
- are Carter and Ximenes going to play and will they step up into the players we need them to be
- Is McKinney the real deal that he started looking like at the end of the season
- can the O-line take it to the next level and will Solder be cut (given the cap is lowering I think he has to be)
my affirmative contentions that may be controversial to some on here:
- I would keep Zeitler
- I would keep Engram and get him a sports psychologist because he does have tantalizing ability
- I would sign a premium CB in FA or upper level mid-range one
- I would cut Tate and get a different and taller hands WR in FA.
- I would cut Flemming, start Thomas and Peart at tackle next season and both sign another swing Tackle in FA and draft a Tackle in the mid rounds
- draft ER Rousseau, ER Kwity Paye or CB Caleb Farley in Rd 1
- draft 6'3" WR Terrace Marshall Jr. or 6'4" WR Tamorrion Terry in Rd 2
- draft DT Joshua Kaindoh, DT Tedarrell Slaton or DT Jaelan Phillips in Rd 3
- draft OT Walker Little or OT Liam Eichenberg in Rd 4
This is my view
Go Giants!