I was reading through the playoff thread yesterday and as you could expect, the recent results of the Giants came up. It can’t be disputed, the Giants are 51-86 since Hurricane Sandy and more recently, 18-46 since their last playoff season in 2016. There is no defense of it, this is arguably the worst stretch of NYG football, ever. I wasn’t around for the 70’s, but you get the point.
With all that said, I draw a line in the sand after the 2019 season. Maybe I’m naive or overly hopeful, but 2020 felt different to me. Prior to the season, most on BBI felt this was a 3-4 win team tops, well they finished 6-10 which was far better than most here believed. Imagine saying this team would finish 6-10 after starting 1-7, any poster making that claim would have been mocked. So, why doesn’t it deserve credit? Why do we need to continue referencing 2018/2019 when discussing the Giants?
For me, I view January 2020 forward as a clean slate. And I guess that’s where I’m different. Any decision which was impacted by Eli’s presence is no longer relevant.
From all accounts, it appears that Judge has the makings of a good coach. Based on his interviews this week, it also appears that he has an influence on personnel. And, regardless of what you think of DG - I think most here would admit that DG/Judge seem more philosophically aligned than DG/Shurmur. The 2020 offseason was one of their best in recent years.
So, it comes down to whether you view 2020 as a reset, which I do. I don’t see how lumping in decisions made with Eli here as relevant to today’s Giants. If you do lump in 2018/2019 when discussing the current Giants, then I assume you think nothing has changed for the good.
Lastly, the Eagles were often praised as an analytically, forward thinking team. They won a recent SB in 2017, but haven’t sustained the success. The front office meddles and wanted to control Pederson’s staff. If you believe reports, Lurie is pushing Wentz on potential candidates. Roseman’s draft have been a disaster. Are they still the model franchise to follow which most of the analytically driven NFL media would have had you think in 2017-2019? I say all this to make the point that I think it is overblown when fans say the Giants can’t win with their current front office.
In short, the Giants made a lot of shitty decisions with Eli in mind. Eli is now retired, Judge looks promising & as of 2020, the operation seems to have improved. I view 2020 as a clean slate.
I saw many things this season that really gave me cause for hope. This staff was working with a lot of major talent holes on the team and they over performed. The team improved over the course of the year, especially on defense. There were a bunch of games lost earlier in the season that could have gone either way. Five in particular that standout: the Bears game, the Rams game, the first Cowboys game, the first Eagles game, and the Bucs game.. it was a real possibility that the Giants could have gone 6-0 in the division and been 10-6 or 11-5.
Building off of that and with personale improvements I see 10-6 and 11-5 being very reachable goals next year. If the Giants add a true 2nd corner, a true #1 WR, and an impact edge rusher that may be enough to win the division and go at least 1 round into the playoffs. Depth wise, if they add a ground and pounder RB ala Freeman (and I don't think Gallman fits that bill), Saquon stays healthy, and Engram somehow gets his head out of his ass (or is replaced with a competent TE), they will be serious contenders. I see all this as very doable right now between the draft and FA --
the only real questions are:
- can/or should they hold onto Tomlinson, or do they have/or can they get an adequate replacement for him;
- are Carter and Ximenes going to play and will they step up into the players we need them to be
- Is McKinney the real deal that he started looking like at the end of the season
- can the O-line take it to the next level and will Solder be cut (given the cap is lowering I think he has to be)
my affirmative contentions that may be controversial to some on here:
- I would keep Zeitler
- I would keep Engram and get him a sports psychologist because he does have tantalizing ability
- I would sign a premium CB in FA or upper level mid-range one
- I would cut Tate and get a different and taller hands WR in FA.
- I would cut Flemming, start Thomas and Peart at tackle next season and both sign another swing Tackle in FA and draft a Tackle in the mid rounds
- draft ER Rousseau, ER Kwity Paye or CB Caleb Farley in Rd 1
- draft 6'3" WR Terrace Marshall Jr. or 6'4" WR Tamorrion Terry in Rd 2
- draft DT Joshua Kaindoh, DT Tedarrell Slaton or DT Jaelan Phillips in Rd 3
- draft OT Walker Little or OT Liam Eichenberg in Rd 4
This is my view
Go Giants!
The Giants finished 1-3.
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and achieving a 4-2 division record and a 5-3 record in the second half of the season. In fact color me as pleasantly surprised. I didn't think the Giants could do better than 3-13 this year, and I certainly didn't think the defense would be as good as it evolved over the course of the season.
I saw many things this season that really gave me cause for hope. This staff was working with a lot of major talent holes on the team and they over performed. The team improved over the course of the year, especially on defense. There were a bunch of games lost earlier in the season that could have gone either way. Five in particular that standout: the Bears game, the Rams game, the first Cowboys game, the first Eagles game, and the Bucs game.. it was a real possibility that the Giants could have gone 6-0 in the division and been 10-6 or 11-5.
Building off of that and with personale improvements I see 10-6 and 11-5 being very reachable goals next year. If the Giants add a true 2nd corner, a true #1 WR, and an impact edge rusher that may be enough to win the division and go at least 1 round into the playoffs. Depth wise, if they add a ground and pounder RB ala Freeman (and I don't think Gallman fits that bill), Saquon stays healthy, and Engram somehow gets his head out of his ass (or is replaced with a competent TE), they will be serious contenders. I see all this as very doable right now between the draft and FA --
the only real questions are:
- can/or should they hold onto Tomlinson, or do they have/or can they get an adequate replacement for him;
- are Carter and Ximenes going to play and will they step up into the players we need them to be
- Is McKinney the real deal that he started looking like at the end of the season
- can the O-line take it to the next level and will Solder be cut (given the cap is lowering I think he has to be)
my affirmative contentions that may be controversial to some on here:
- I would keep Zeitler
- I would keep Engram and get him a sports psychologist because he does have tantalizing ability
- I would sign a premium CB in FA or upper level mid-range one
- I would cut Tate and get a different and taller hands WR in FA.
- I would cut Flemming, start Thomas and Peart at tackle next season and both sign another swing Tackle in FA and draft a Tackle in the mid rounds
- draft ER Rousseau, ER Kwity Paye or CB Caleb Farley in Rd 1
- draft 6'3" WR Terrace Marshall Jr. or 6'4" WR Tamorrion Terry in Rd 2
- draft DT Joshua Kaindoh, DT Tedarrell Slaton or DT Jaelan Phillips in Rd 3
- draft OT Walker Little or OT Liam Eichenberg in Rd 4
This is my view
Go Giants!
The Giants finished 1-3.
Sheesh, you know what gidie was getting at..They lost their first 5 games, were 1-7, won 4 in a row, lost 3 in a row..They finished 5-3, 1-3 or 1-0, it doesn’t matter how it’s couched..We’re building something. It’s a continual process. Get more tools, draft well..Optimism abounds imv
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In comment 15125567 gidiefor said:
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and achieving a 4-2 division record and a 5-3 record in the second half of the season. In fact color me as pleasantly surprised. I didn't think the Giants could do better than 3-13 this year, and I certainly didn't think the defense would be as good as it evolved over the course of the season.
I saw many things this season that really gave me cause for hope. This staff was working with a lot of major talent holes on the team and they over performed. The team improved over the course of the year, especially on defense. There were a bunch of games lost earlier in the season that could have gone either way. Five in particular that standout: the Bears game, the Rams game, the first Cowboys game, the first Eagles game, and the Bucs game.. it was a real possibility that the Giants could have gone 6-0 in the division and been 10-6 or 11-5.
Building off of that and with personale improvements I see 10-6 and 11-5 being very reachable goals next year. If the Giants add a true 2nd corner, a true #1 WR, and an impact edge rusher that may be enough to win the division and go at least 1 round into the playoffs. Depth wise, if they add a ground and pounder RB ala Freeman (and I don't think Gallman fits that bill), Saquon stays healthy, and Engram somehow gets his head out of his ass (or is replaced with a competent TE), they will be serious contenders. I see all this as very doable right now between the draft and FA --
the only real questions are:
- can/or should they hold onto Tomlinson, or do they have/or can they get an adequate replacement for him;
- are Carter and Ximenes going to play and will they step up into the players we need them to be
- Is McKinney the real deal that he started looking like at the end of the season
- can the O-line take it to the next level and will Solder be cut (given the cap is lowering I think he has to be)
my affirmative contentions that may be controversial to some on here:
- I would keep Zeitler
- I would keep Engram and get him a sports psychologist because he does have tantalizing ability
- I would sign a premium CB in FA or upper level mid-range one
- I would cut Tate and get a different and taller hands WR in FA.
- I would cut Flemming, start Thomas and Peart at tackle next season and both sign another swing Tackle in FA and draft a Tackle in the mid rounds
- draft ER Rousseau, ER Kwity Paye or CB Caleb Farley in Rd 1
- draft 6'3" WR Terrace Marshall Jr. or 6'4" WR Tamorrion Terry in Rd 2
- draft DT Joshua Kaindoh, DT Tedarrell Slaton or DT Jaelan Phillips in Rd 3
- draft OT Walker Little or OT Liam Eichenberg in Rd 4
This is my view
Go Giants!
The Giants finished 1-3.
Sheesh, you know what gidie was getting at..They lost their first 5 games, were 1-7, won 4 in a row, lost 3 in a row..They finished 5-3, 1-3 or 1-0, it doesn’t matter how it’s couched..We’re building something. It’s a continual process. Get more tools, draft well..Optimism abounds imv
The only thing we’re building is a 5 year losing streak, and with next years schedule looks more than likely even if the team was to get better.
I don’t wear my blue colored glasses all the time like some. I didn’t think a 5-11 team was having a big game against Dallas, and it was any big deal for a 6-10 team to make the playoffs. The O Line is Humpty Dumpty, and Peart, and SL is not going to put it together again like some, and I don’t think the team will ever be any good with DJ at QB like some do.
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I think you may be on the wrong thread -- there's a Giants sucking thread nearby -- that seems to fit your frame of mind. It would be nice if you talked some football instead of regaling us with grousing
I don’t wear my blue colored glasses all the time like some. I didn’t think a 5-11 team was having a big game against Dallas, and it was any big deal for a 6-10 team to make the playoffs. The O Line is Humpty Dumpty, and Peart, and SL is not going to put it together again like some, and I don’t think the team will ever be any good with DJ at QB like some do.
It’s your opinion and that’s fine. But stating stuff as though it’s fact is silly, imv
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In comment 15125622 gidiefor said:
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I think you may be on the wrong thread -- there's a Giants sucking thread nearby -- that seems to fit your frame of mind. It would be nice if you talked some football instead of regaling us with grousing
I don’t wear my blue colored glasses all the time like some. I didn’t think a 5-11 team was having a big game against Dallas, and it was any big deal for a 6-10 team to make the playoffs. The O Line is Humpty Dumpty, and Peart, and SL is not going to put it together again like some, and I don’t think the team will ever be any good with DJ at QB like some do.
It’s your opinion and that’s fine. But stating stuff as though it’s fact is silly, imv
The team was 6-10 this past year in one of the worst div in NFL history, and has had 4 losing seasons in a row. Those are facts. The O Line sucks, and I can’t see the team getting any better until thr O Line gets better, which I can’t see with the likes of Peart, and SL. The D got better last year, but now have 2 important players up for a new contract, and will lose at least one probably, and D still needs a edge rusher to get better. I would love to see them even get to 500 next year, but I just don’t see it.
Good lord.
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In comment 15125680 Old Blue said:
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In comment 15125622 gidiefor said:
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I think you may be on the wrong thread -- there's a Giants sucking thread nearby -- that seems to fit your frame of mind. It would be nice if you talked some football instead of regaling us with grousing
I don’t wear my blue colored glasses all the time like some. I didn’t think a 5-11 team was having a big game against Dallas, and it was any big deal for a 6-10 team to make the playoffs. The O Line is Humpty Dumpty, and Peart, and SL is not going to put it together again like some, and I don’t think the team will ever be any good with DJ at QB like some do.
It’s your opinion and that’s fine. But stating stuff as though it’s fact is silly, imv
The team was 6-10 this past year in one of the worst div in NFL history, and has had 4 losing seasons in a row. Those are facts. The O Line sucks, and I can’t see the team getting any better until thr O Line gets better, which I can’t see with the likes of Peart, and SL. The D got better last year, but now have 2 important players up for a new contract, and will lose at least one probably, and D still needs a edge rusher to get better. I would love to see them even get to 500 next year, but I just don’t see it.
You mean your opinion is the OL sucks. We don’t KNOW that for sure as Gates, Thomas, Peart, Lemieux had their ups and downs but appeared to be more in sync as the year progressed, albeit Peart seemed to be physically laboring post covid..You believe the team needs an ER, yet that’s not the Belichick way. If Judge adopts BB’s scheme of strong up the middle and in the Secondary, you might not need an ER that’s all-world..The opinions you expressed I generally agree with.
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In comment 15125717 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15125680 Old Blue said:
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In comment 15125622 gidiefor said:
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I think you may be on the wrong thread -- there's a Giants sucking thread nearby -- that seems to fit your frame of mind. It would be nice if you talked some football instead of regaling us with grousing
I don’t wear my blue colored glasses all the time like some. I didn’t think a 5-11 team was having a big game against Dallas, and it was any big deal for a 6-10 team to make the playoffs. The O Line is Humpty Dumpty, and Peart, and SL is not going to put it together again like some, and I don’t think the team will ever be any good with DJ at QB like some do.
It’s your opinion and that’s fine. But stating stuff as though it’s fact is silly, imv
The team was 6-10 this past year in one of the worst div in NFL history, and has had 4 losing seasons in a row. Those are facts. The O Line sucks, and I can’t see the team getting any better until thr O Line gets better, which I can’t see with the likes of Peart, and SL. The D got better last year, but now have 2 important players up for a new contract, and will lose at least one probably, and D still needs a edge rusher to get better. I would love to see them even get to 500 next year, but I just don’t see it.
You mean your opinion is the OL sucks. We don’t KNOW that for sure as Gates, Thomas, Peart, Lemieux had their ups and downs but appeared to be more in sync as the year progressed, albeit Peart seemed to be physically laboring post covid..You believe the team needs an ER, yet that’s not the Belichick way. If Judge adopts BB’s scheme of strong up the middle and in the Secondary, you might not need an ER that’s all-world..The opinions you expressed I generally agree with.
👍
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In comment 15125622 gidiefor said:
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I think you may be on the wrong thread -- there's a Giants sucking thread nearby -- that seems to fit your frame of mind. It would be nice if you talked some football instead of regaling us with grousing
I don’t wear my blue colored glasses all the time like some. I didn’t think a 5-11 team was having a big game against Dallas, and it was any big deal for a 6-10 team to make the playoffs. The O Line is Humpty Dumpty, and Peart, and SL is not going to put it together again like some, and I don’t think the team will ever be any good with DJ at QB like some do.
It’s your opinion and that’s fine. But stating stuff as though it’s fact is silly, imv
Ah yes because it is highly possible for a team with QB that everyone thought the Giants were complete clowns for taking at 6. Then after a 12 TD season at the helm, let's bring everyone back another year and hope for a miracle and to win a super bowl. I mean yeah it is opinion and miracles do happen , I could also win the lotto next week too.
The OL has potential and that is huge. I have a feeling Solder retires. I just do. I think we hold onto Zeitler for one more year. But honestly, nothing would shock me outside of trading D. Jones!
I do like Judge a lot and think he has the "special thing" you need to succeed and motivate the troops.
What killed the Giants in 2020?
-New coaching staff and no real off-season & pre-season
-Injury to Barkley non-contact, hurt offense badly
-CB Baker leaving hole on team and being cut
-CB Beal and OT Solder taking COVID as both likely start
-Tough early schedule 0 - 4
-Backup QB very average at best, no real chance without playmakers.
However, this team was fairly healthy compared to many others including Dallas and Philly, IMHO anyway.
Now, the longer answer is I believe this group will distance itself from the losing results and culture. So far, I have liked what I have seen and heard with Judge and believe he and his staff are the right one to move us pout of the darkness. 6 wins is still 6 wins. And, I never bought the moral victory thing when losing is a regular occurrence. But, now evaluating the team and season after it is over, I do think there is reason to be optimistic. I am just not willing to call it remotely close to a success when we lost double digit games.
It was all to easy to get caught up in playing a meaningful game as late as week 17, when the reality is that had far more to do with the division than this team. So, there is still a lot of work to be done. I think this group will get it done. But, I am not wholly confident until they look like a winning team and actually have won more games than they've lost.
The real turning point on this team was 2012 and it was really Mara that said it was time "down size" and they got rid of Bradshaw and Jacobs and the others. They tried to go cheap and still retain Eli. It didn't work (not because of Eli). But because it was a really tricky thing to do. After years of failure they doubled down with Gettleman who is even worse than Reese I am convinced.