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Enough is Enough With the Giants Sucking

christian : 1/17/2021 12:33 pm
Watching playoff football depresses the heck out of me. I’m so sick of the Giants sucking. I don’t care what the Giants did in past decades. The Giants are now in the company of the dredges of the league in playoff win droughts.

For all the principals to keep their jobs the Giants really need a winning season. I’m so sick of the excuses of what Mara did to Gettleman, what Gettleman did to Manning, what Manning did to Mara’s cat, what Mara’s cat did to Jones.

It’s time to cut the crap and systematically cut out the excuses. The Giants don’t have insane ownership, play in a crap city, play in an ancient stadium, or have a losing legacy. The Giants have zero built-in excuses to suck.

If Jones can’t pair gaining yards, throwing touchdowns, and a low turnover rate — replace him.

If Barkley can’t pair a healthy season, with fewer negative runs, and good productivity, don’t extend him.

Don’t sit on your hands and expect Lemieux, Gates, and Peart to defy the odds and anchor the line, go get a top shelf veteran too.

Don’t expect more miracles at the skill positions, go get a unequivocal no. 1 WR.

Pick where you want to rush the passer — either go get a 3 down outside linebacker who can edge rusher, or sign Williams and Tomlinson.

Wrap up the corner position, and pair Bradberry with a league average counter part.
If doing all of that  
section125 : 1/17/2021 12:37 pm : link
exceeds the CAP, just do it.
This kind of goes with the thread I made earlier this morning..  
Sean : 1/17/2021 12:38 pm : link
I look at 2020 as a clean slate. Judge looks promising. While I don’t compare the QB’s, I do think the 2004 season can be looked at as a comparison for Coughlin’s first season:

2003: 4-12 (Fassel fired)
2004: 6-10 (Coughlin’s first year; 2 win improvement)
2005: 11-5 (NFC East title; big jump)

2019: 4-12 (Shurmur fired)
2020: 6-10 (Judge first year; 2 win improvement)
2021: I expect a big jump and division title

I have hopes for Judge, and based on the first year - Judge/DG seem to have had a good year.

But, I agree - there NEEDS to be a big jump next year in wins.
What is all this stuff about Mara's cat  
chick310 : 1/17/2021 12:40 pm : link
and how did it contribute to the Giants sucking?
LOL  
Saquads26 : 1/17/2021 12:43 pm : link
.
So we should fix every problem we have and maybe some we don’t.  
BillT : 1/17/2021 12:51 pm : link
Immediately. Good plan. BTW, is getting to all done by tomorrow too late.
We need to have a slam dunk of an off season  
UberAlias : 1/17/2021 12:58 pm : link
We also need Dan Jones to take a big step forward. Right or wrong, DG is still the ring master of this circus. I hope we don’t have an okay draft and off-season and point to that like it’s a success. We need to see signs of building a championship roster not just one that doesn’t suck.
RE: So we should fix every problem we have and maybe some we don’t.  
christian : 1/17/2021 1:02 pm : link
In comment 15125423 BillT said:
Quote:
Immediately. Good plan. BTW, is getting to all done by tomorrow too late.


You think adding a WR, guard, linebacker and CB, is too tall of an order?

The Giants added an above average safety, linebacker, and corner in UFA last year. And drafted a day one starter at LT.

Improving four positions shouldn’t require a miracle.
You better get used to at least a couple  
cosmicj : 1/17/2021 1:03 pm : link
Of seasons of this. Gettleman’s job 1 was to transition from Eli to the next franchise QB. He had Allen and Herbert staring him in the face and he took neither. Better be patient, Christian.
I don’t know about  
Bones : 1/17/2021 1:04 pm : link
Mara’s cat, but I do believe he is the man mainly responsible for the current sucking. It seems the big decisions are made jointly by owners, GM and head coach. I just believe John Mara doesn’t know how to run a sports team, and Gettleman has not had the stones to stand up to him, and our head coaches have not been CEO types lately. Hopefully Judge can steer the ship in the right direction, and Mara has learned from his mistakes.
Looking at the playoff teams this year  
bluesince56 : 1/17/2021 1:08 pm : link
All have TWO TEs that make plays. All have TWO Wrs that make contested catches at big times in the game. We have nobody that could start at those positions. That’s why we suck!
......  
Route 9 : 1/17/2021 1:22 pm : link
But it's going to take some time to rebuild!

Don't you get it?? Be patient. This will only take 17 years.
It’s like that SNL skit  
mattlawson : 1/17/2021 1:29 pm : link
JUST FIX IT!
So just buy low  
Daniel in MI : 1/17/2021 1:31 pm : link
And sell high and we’ll get rich in the market.

Got it.
RE: This kind of goes with the thread I made earlier this morning..  
christian : 1/17/2021 1:36 pm : link
In comment 15125414 Sean said:
Quote:
But, I agree - there NEEDS to be a big jump next year in wins.


I agree. The notion you can’t add good players and a get a big jump in wins is nonsense. It happens plenty in the modern NFL.

Especially if you have a well-managed cap and early draft picks.

The reason the Giants have sucked is because the team picked 2 shit coaches in a row, and haven’t added enough good players.

Judge isn’t a shit coach. Now it’s time to add more good players.

And most importantly, if Jones and Barkley can’t prove they are cornerstones of the offense this year, move on from them.
I expect  
darren in pdx : 1/17/2021 1:39 pm : link
them to be 'in the hunt' next year, but I don't know if they'll be front-runners for the division title. Depends on if the rest of the division doesn't improve much from this season. An 8-8 to 9-7 season might be realistic unless every draft pick and FA acquisition is a hit..
RE: RE: This kind of goes with the thread I made earlier this morning..  
Go Terps : 1/17/2021 1:39 pm : link
In comment 15125466 christian said:
Quote:
And most importantly, if Jones and Barkley can’t prove they are cornerstones of the offense this year, move on from them.


And this is where Mara and Gettleman remain a problem.
...  
christian : 1/17/2021 1:57 pm : link
^ Exactly. If a year 3 QB and year 4 RB aren’t major parts of what’s right with your team, then you have to get better ones.
It's pretty disheartening  
GiantsRage2007 : 1/17/2021 1:57 pm : link
Watching the Packers offense yesterday, and today we can see the Chiefs and Saints etc...

Shows you how wide the talent gap is on that side of the ball
RE: It's pretty disheartening  
Go Terps : 1/17/2021 2:03 pm : link
In comment 15125489 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
Watching the Packers offense yesterday, and today we can see the Chiefs and Saints etc...

Shows you how wide the talent gap is on that side of the ball


Rodgers threw 48 touchdowns this season. Jones threw 11.

Two different sports. Joe Judge can be the best coach on earth, but he's bringing a butter knife to a gun fight.
Like I’ve said a bunch so far since the end of the season  
The_Boss : 1/17/2021 2:05 pm : link
Win 9-10 games. Anything less should result in Dave’s termination. Like the OP said-enough is enough.

Now, gun to my head do I think they get to 9-10 wins next year? No I don’t.
Lots of salient points by the OP...  
bw in dc : 1/17/2021 2:07 pm : link
We are in a very tricky position as an organization because so much is riding on Jones being a legit franchise QB. And right now that's a coin toss at best...

If he's not the solution that obviously Jints Central thinks, it's going to be a major setback.
RE: RE: This kind of goes with the thread I made earlier this morning..  
Old Blue : 1/17/2021 2:09 pm : link
In comment 15125466 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15125414 Sean said:


Quote:


But, I agree - there NEEDS to be a big jump next year in wins.



I agree. The notion you can’t add good players and a get a big jump in wins is nonsense. It happens plenty in the modern NFL.

Especially if you have a well-managed cap and early draft picks.

The reason the Giants have sucked is because the team picked 2 shit coaches in a row, and haven’t added enough good players.

Judge isn’t a shit coach. Now it’s time to add more good players.

And most importantly, if Jones and Barkley can’t prove they are cornerstones of the offense this year, move on from them.


It’s way to early to say Judge is good, or bad, but don’t blame the Giants Coaches for the Giants sucking the past four years. Bad drafts, and FA signings is the biggest reasons, and will stay that way unless something drastically changes, and I don’t see that with DG in charge. Drafting the wrong QB will set you back for years even if everything else is good, and that is not the case with the Giants. The O Line sucks, and no Peart, and SL are nothing but backups. Barkley needs to go too.
We will get there ....  
short lease : 1/17/2021 2:30 pm : link
For the first time in a while the arrow is pointing up (IMO).

If Gettleman has a couple more good drafts and 1 or 2 key FA signings - we own the East very shortly (relatively speaking).
Dramatics aside with reasons why the Giants have sucked  
LBH15 : 1/17/2021 2:34 pm : link
the OP lays out the biggest fundamental issues.

1) Can Daniel Jones get better or not?
2) Will Saquon be what is expected of him or not?
3) Will the OL get better or is more investment needed?
4) Can the team sign/draft a legit #1 playmaking WR?
5) Are they going to break the bank to keep the DL intact?
6) Does the Defense still need an Edge Rusher or not?
7) Where is the #2 Cornerback coming from?





Answer Key: Yes, No, More, Yes, No, Yes, Draft.
RE: We will get there ....  
Old Blue : 1/17/2021 2:42 pm : link
In comment 15125541 short lease said:
Quote:
For the first time in a while the arrow is pointing up (IMO).

If Gettleman has a couple more good drafts and 1 or 2 key FA signings - we own the East very shortly (relatively speaking).


When has Gettleman had good drafts??
Something that would ramp up pressure on Mara..  
Sean : 1/17/2021 2:45 pm : link
The Jets trading for DeShaun Watson. It’s clear based on reports things are trending towards Watson getting traded and the Jets are well positioned to make a trade.

The Jets winning would definitely impact Mara if the Giants are still floundering.
Arrow is Pointing Up, My Friend...  
GruningsOnTheHill : 1/17/2021 2:48 pm : link
arrow is pointing up.
RE: Something that would ramp up pressure on Mara..  
Go Terps : 1/17/2021 2:54 pm : link
In comment 15125560 Sean said:
Quote:
The Jets trading for DeShaun Watson. It’s clear based on reports things are trending towards Watson getting traded and the Jets are well positioned to make a trade.

The Jets winning would definitely impact Mara if the Giants are still floundering.


I wish the Giants were trying to do the same.

And for those saying the arrow is pointing up, I'm not sure we can say that yet. The flawed methodologies that got us here remain - critical football decisions (hiring Gettleman, sticking with Eli, hiring Garrett) are being informed by things other than trying to win games. It's fair to worry whether that same subjectivity will weigh into the decisions on Barkley and Jones.
RE: RE: Something that would ramp up pressure on Mara..  
GiantsFan84 : 1/17/2021 3:02 pm : link
In comment 15125577 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15125560 Sean said:


Quote:


The Jets trading for DeShaun Watson. It’s clear based on reports things are trending towards Watson getting traded and the Jets are well positioned to make a trade.

The Jets winning would definitely impact Mara if the Giants are still floundering.



I wish the Giants were trying to do the same.

And for those saying the arrow is pointing up, I'm not sure we can say that yet. The flawed methodologies that got us here remain - critical football decisions (hiring Gettleman, sticking with Eli, hiring Garrett) are being informed by things other than trying to win games. It's fair to worry whether that same subjectivity will weigh into the decisions on Barkley and Jones.


they should be offering whatever it takes to get watson. i'd offer 3 first round picks with zero hesitation
Terps..  
Sean : 1/17/2021 3:04 pm : link
Judge doesn’t strike me as a guy that would go along with that thinking. We’ll see though. I’m hopeful it will be different.
RE: Something that would ramp up pressure on Mara..  
bw in dc : 1/17/2021 3:10 pm : link
In comment 15125560 Sean said:
Quote:
The Jets trading for DeShaun Watson. It’s clear based on reports things are trending towards Watson getting traded and the Jets are well positioned to make a trade.

The Jets winning would definitely impact Mara if the Giants are still floundering.


If Watson gets traded anywhere, and we could have offered a similar package, it's a big miss.

If he goes to the Jets, it's going to be extra salt on the wound if the Jets suddenly compete and we continue to languish.

.  
GiantEgo : 1/17/2021 3:11 pm : link
The Texans were 4-12 with Mr. Watson at QB for 16 games.
RE: .  
bw in dc : 1/17/2021 3:24 pm : link
In comment 15125606 GiantEgo said:
Quote:
The Texans were 4-12 with Mr. Watson at QB for 16 games.


So?

And 10-5 and 11-5 the years prior.
RE: RE: .  
GiantEgo : 1/17/2021 3:27 pm : link
In comment 15125632 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15125606 GiantEgo said:


Quote:


The Texans were 4-12 with Mr. Watson at QB for 16 games.

BBI says it's all on the QB, team quality is no factor. He has clearly regressed.



So?

And 10-5 and 11-5 the years prior.
.  
GiantEgo : 1/17/2021 3:29 pm : link
BBi tells me it's all on the QB, team quality is never an excuse. He has clearly regressed.
RE: .  
bw in dc : 1/17/2021 3:37 pm : link
In comment 15125650 GiantEgo said:
Quote:
BBi tells me it's all on the QB, team quality is never an excuse. He has clearly regressed.


They were in total disarray down there this year. Off-season turmoil, trades, O'Brien firing, injuries, etc.

Despite that, you can't say Watson didn't do his job:

70%+ completion %, 4800+ yards, 33/7, total QBR 70+.
Re: Enough is Enough With the Giants Sucking  
JohnF : 1/17/2021 3:40 pm : link
Funny, that's what we said after 1975.

Spoilers: The team didn't win until the league forced Gorge Young as the GM, and Ray Perkins got the first winning season in 1981.
I wish Jones could regress to Watson's production  
Go Terps : 1/17/2021 4:09 pm : link
It's a safe bet that Jones will never put up a statistical season as good as Watson's "regression year".
Finally someone who gets it.  
MtDizzle : 1/17/2021 4:12 pm : link
To you blind homers out there, we have the right to love our team and call them out. The mediocrity around here has gone on long enough and I’m fucking sick of it.
Expecting upgrades across the board  
WillVAB : 1/17/2021 4:23 pm : link
Is unrealistic. What they need to do is lock up their core, bargain shop in FA, and focus on nailing the draft. They really need to come away with at least 3 impact players in the draft. Very doable given the problem areas with the roster.

Jones/Barkley were mistakes but I think you have to ride that out in the short term. Build the rest of the roster up and if Jones/Barkley don’t justify 2nd contracts, move on. If they have to go that way at least the rest of the roster is gtg.
...  
christian : 1/17/2021 4:34 pm : link
What is the core that needs locking up? The Giants have 2 UFAs of note — Tomlinson and Williams. Who else?

RE: ...  
WillVAB : 1/17/2021 4:46 pm : link
In comment 15125855 christian said:
Quote:
What is the core that needs locking up? The Giants have 2 UFAs of note — Tomlinson and Williams. Who else?


Those two, who won’t be cheap. I would not burn FA dollars at WR. There’s too many pro ready WRs in the draft. I’d focus FA on those two plus a corner or edge depending on who’s available. I wouldn’t be opposed to targeting Dupree coming off the ACL if the injury is baked into his price.

The trenches are almost there. I would focus this off-season on solidifying the OL/DL via FA and adding playmakers on offense through the draft.
RE: ...  
Go Terps : 1/17/2021 4:48 pm : link
In comment 15125855 christian said:
Quote:
What is the core that needs locking up? The Giants have 2 UFAs of note — Tomlinson and Williams. Who else?


I'd pay Williams, let Tomlinson walk, and bargain bin shop in FA. Cheap 1 or 2 year deals. No big commitments.
...  
christian : 1/17/2021 4:54 pm : link
Point I’m making is the Giants don’t have a core to lock-up.

They need to upgrade these positions, not lock-up the incumbents. The only 2 players not under contract who are worth considering keeping are Williams and Tomlinson. If the Giants determine the defensive line is the cornerstone of their defense, I don’t mind keeping both.

Whether that be the draft, UFA, or trades, and whether those are shorter or longer deals, they need better players.
RE: RE: It's pretty disheartening  
BleedBlue : 1/17/2021 6:35 pm : link
In comment 15125498 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15125489 GiantsRage2007 said:


Quote:


Watching the Packers offense yesterday, and today we can see the Chiefs and Saints etc...

Shows you how wide the talent gap is on that side of the ball



Rodgers threw 48 touchdowns this season. Jones threw 11.

Two different sports. Joe Judge can be the best coach on earth, but he's bringing a butter knife to a gun fight.


1. Jones is a fucking baby in conparison to rodgers
2. Adams, a jones, tonyan, lazard. Im not taking a single of our of skill players over theirs.

Get jones some weapons before we judge him
this team  
MookGiants : 1/17/2021 6:39 pm : link
is a long way off from competing consistently with any of the teams playing this weekend.
RE: RE: RE: It's pretty disheartening  
Go Terps : 1/17/2021 6:59 pm : link
In comment 15126245 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 15125498 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15125489 GiantsRage2007 said:


Quote:


Watching the Packers offense yesterday, and today we can see the Chiefs and Saints etc...

Shows you how wide the talent gap is on that side of the ball



Rodgers threw 48 touchdowns this season. Jones threw 11.

Two different sports. Joe Judge can be the best coach on earth, but he's bringing a butter knife to a gun fight.



1. Jones is a fucking baby in conparison to rodgers
2. Adams, a jones, tonyan, lazard. Im not taking a single of our of skill players over theirs.

Get jones some weapons before we judge him


The guy that put these skill players in place is still here. He did a bad job. Why should we expect him to do a good job now? Why should we expect he got the quarterback right when he got the other guys wrong?

The approach, the timing, the methods - they don't add up.
.  
Go Terps : 1/17/2021 7:08 pm : link
Bill Walsh used to tell his staff that they were only competing with about 8 teams. The rest didn't know what they were doing. What are the Giants going to be in 2021? Does it feel like they're one of the 8 or so teams that knows what it's doing?
Mediocrity thanks to our offense  
5BowlsSoon : 1/17/2021 7:08 pm : link
The offensive coaches are mediocre and so are the players. No, I’m not counting on Saquon to play much or if he does, to play well.

Garrett’s offense is a dinosaur and compare his play calling with KC’s calling. Notice a difference? I doubt Judge fires Garrett, so I guess he is willing to live with mediocrity and forsake creativity.

Unless we get a makeover at the receiver position, nothing but mediocrity awaits us.
RE: RE: ...  
JoeyBigBlue : 1/17/2021 7:20 pm : link
In comment 15125885 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15125855 christian said:


Quote:


What is the core that needs locking up? The Giants have 2 UFAs of note — Tomlinson and Williams. Who else?




I'd pay Williams, let Tomlinson walk, and bargain bin shop in FA. Cheap 1 or 2 year deals. No big commitments.



I said the same thing and I got laughed at.
If the offense sucks again next year  
Ned In Atlanta : 1/17/2021 7:37 pm : link
I have zero faith in Mara firing Gettleman and/or cutting Jones and not extending saquon. And we’ll have the same band of apologists on this board making excuses
We have a number 2 draft pick  
Ike#88 : 1/17/2021 8:25 pm : link
who is a running back that does not like contact and is injured with regularity. We play an offense scheme that looks nothing like teams that win and make the playoffs. Our owner is holding us down. We have no tight ends that are a threat to the defense for how many years now? Our GM is Dave Gettleman. Our QB struggled to win in college.
I tend to agree with the OP on  
Gman11 : 1/18/2021 6:42 am : link
the basic message. Enough of the excuses. While we were making excuses for this season's team - new coach, no OTAs, no preseason, etc - remember that except for Barkley they really had no major injuries and when it came time to show how much the team improved they got blown out in three straight games.
Came across this picture in the NY Post today  
Go Terps : 1/20/2021 8:40 pm : link
Terps  
cosmicj : 1/20/2021 9:11 pm : link
Can you explain?
My phone deleted what I wrote...  
Go Terps : 1/20/2021 9:14 pm : link
Can anyone tell me what's wrong with that picture?

To answer my own question...how do mechanics that poor get through Cutcliffe AND NFL coaches?
I thought right away it looked odd  
cosmicj : 1/20/2021 9:16 pm : link
But it is a single still photo.
Ok you have a point  
cosmicj : 1/20/2021 9:20 pm : link
Different game.[img]
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fempiresportsmedia.com%2Fnew-york-giants%2Fwhy-the-new-york-giants-are-smart-not-to-throw-daniel-jones-into-the-fire%2F&psig=AOvVaw2jgbgzhu4VRstaQIU2wrRk&ust=1611281808432000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCOCtmfD6q-4CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE[img]
RE: I thought right away it looked odd  
Go Terps : 1/20/2021 9:21 pm : link
In comment 15129464 cosmicj said:
Quote:
But it is a single still photo.


I would say the same thing if it didn't corroborate everything I've seen for two seasons. That image captures why he fumbles so much, and why he's late so often.
Ok I’m failing at this image posting thing  
cosmicj : 1/20/2021 9:26 pm : link
A lot of photos don’t have the file postfix thing, but take a look at this
DJ form - ( New Window )
throwing motion should look more like this  
Del Shofner : 1/20/2021 9:26 pm : link
This one too  
cosmicj : 1/20/2021 9:27 pm : link
.
DJ form - ( New Window )
And here’s Aaron Rodgers  
cosmicj : 1/20/2021 9:29 pm : link
Looks similar to Jones.
Rodgers - ( New Window )
The template - Aikman  
Go Terps : 1/20/2021 9:38 pm : link




If you're gonna teach your kid how to throw, this is where you point him.
A lot depends when a photo is snapped.  
bw in dc : 1/20/2021 9:47 pm : link


Look at Elway here. And he tapped the ball before the fired it.


the = he...  
bw in dc : 1/20/2021 9:47 pm : link
...
Jones is always going to have three issues with that form  
Go Terps : 1/20/2021 9:49 pm : link
1. He's going to fumble a lot
2. He's going to be late on throws outside the numbers
3. He's going to struggle in the red zone, where timing and a quick release are crucial

I can't think of one example where bad mechanics were coached out of a quarterback at the NFL level.
bw  
Go Terps : 1/20/2021 9:51 pm : link
Some of the guys with ridiculous arms have mechanics you wouldn't teach to mortals. And even some guys with huge arms were held back by bad mechanics (Kerry Collins and Jay Cutler come to mind).

Jones does not have a huge arm. He can't afford to have such poor mechanics.
RE: bw  
bw in dc : 1/20/2021 10:01 pm : link
In comment 15129485 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Some of the guys with ridiculous arms have mechanics you wouldn't teach to mortals. And even some guys with huge arms were held back by bad mechanics (Kerry Collins and Jay Cutler come to mind).

Jones does not have a huge arm. He can't afford to have such poor mechanics.


There is some truth to that for sure. Which is why I prefer prospects with plus / plus-plus arm talent. Mechanics can always be improved. Look at Rodgers and his delivery when he was at Cal. Allen has had incremental improvement at Buffalo.

I think the tell in the Jones photo might be that he really has to wind up at times to get the ball to a spot...??
bw  
Go Terps : 1/20/2021 10:07 pm : link
He does it on every throw as far as I can tell.

1. Ball comes down to belly
2. Taps ball at belly
3. Brings ball back up 1 handed and far out from his body
4. Rotates ball so it's below his arm and pointing behind him
5. Comes up over the top to release

Lots of time. Lots of moving parts. It's really noticeable in the red zone, where the passes are shorter and quicker. The ball takes forever to come out.
RE: Jones is always going to have three issues with that form  
Sean : 1/20/2021 10:10 pm : link
In comment 15129484 Go Terps said:
Quote:
1. He's going to fumble a lot
2. He's going to be late on throws outside the numbers
3. He's going to struggle in the red zone, where timing and a quick release are crucial

I can't think of one example where bad mechanics were coached out of a quarterback at the NFL level.


Reading this, I keep going back to the 2 point conversion attempt against Tampa.
Sean  
Go Terps : 1/20/2021 10:35 pm : link
There's also a red zone attempt from the Pittsburgh game. It was their first trip into the red zone, and Jones threw an incompletion that was nearly picked.

It is always going to be a problem.
...  
christian : 1/20/2021 10:48 pm : link
This is last year, but it’s worth taking a look at how many of his fumbles come at the bottom of his wind up.
Fumbles - ( New Window )
When was that photo  
crick n NC : 1/20/2021 10:49 pm : link
Taken?
RE: When was that photo  
Go Terps : 1/20/2021 10:56 pm : link
In comment 15129500 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Taken?


He's got the C on his jersey, so it's this season.
6 years between Cutcliffe, Shurmur, and Garrett  
Go Terps : 1/20/2021 10:59 pm : link
That motion is baked in. It is always going to be a thing.
RE: bw  
bw in dc : 1/20/2021 11:08 pm : link
In comment 15129488 Go Terps said:
Quote:
He does it on every throw as far as I can tell.

1. Ball comes down to belly
2. Taps ball at belly
3. Brings ball back up 1 handed and far out from his body
4. Rotates ball so it's below his arm and pointing behind him
5. Comes up over the top to release

Lots of time. Lots of moving parts. It's really noticeable in the red zone, where the passes are shorter and quicker. The ball takes forever to come out.


I'd like to see what Jones's release time is versus contemporaries. Like I said before DJ was drafted, I didn't see anything other ordinary arm talent. And he doesn't seem to possess the ability to effectively change arm angles to make plays either. Very much a QB "by the numbers".

If he really is the guy going forward I believe an awful lot of capital/draft luck is going to be needed to optimize Jones's ability in the pocket.

Which is why you can't help but conclude right now that he's way more game manager than force multiplier.
If I recall correctly,  
Go Terps : 1/20/2021 11:11 pm : link
he didn't look so clunky at his pro day. He looked polished and threw a really nice ball... especially in the red zone.

Some guys practice better than they play.
One other thought  
Go Terps : 1/20/2021 11:35 pm : link
We've heard so much about how detail oriented Judge is. We've seen it when he breaks down film on their YouTube channel. He is super detail oriented, and well schooled about technique everywhere on the field.

Judge was a quarterback himself. I find it impossible to believe he isn't fully aware of this problem with Jones. Having been a quarterback himself he is also going to know that coaching bad mechanics out of Jones is extremely difficult and a bad use of time and resources.

I have a hard time believing Judge is completely comfortable with Jones as his quarterback. It doesn't add up.
This is a fundamental understanding about bringing the ball  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/21/2021 12:00 am : link
down. Almost all QBs do this now. In fact the only place you don't see it really as at high school level where they are trying to teach fundamenals and keeping your arm up through and after the release. Where your arm is early in throwing motion isn't a big deal. In fact it's a lot like golf that way I believe, the most important parts are key points in swing/throw.

What needs to be a concern is holding the ball low prior to throwing. He had some issues here last year that he's cleaned up. Low release point is an issue to, both losing power and create opps for batted passes, which isn't an issue. Shit your favorite passer in the NFL, Lamar is a much worse example of this.

And if you knew anything about Cutcliffe, he's all about building QBs from the feet. Doesn't really focus on whats going on uptop and why the guys he trains all looks the same from chest down, but differ up top.
In fact all you need to look at is last year when we ran RPO  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/21/2021 12:05 am : link
plenty of highlights there showing a quick fast release. Shit I just watched a td throw in redzone running play action showing same thing.

Most QBs are doing this on deep and intermediate routes.
Zeke  
Go Terps : 1/21/2021 12:05 am : link
I wouldn't teach Lamar's mechanics to anyone. The problem is Jones doesn't create passing opportunities with his legs like Lamar does.

And I don't agree with what you saying about throwing mechanics in general. When you lack great skills like Jones does, you have to be efficient with your movement to get the ball out on time and accurately. Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen... These guys have supernatural arm strength and can get away with a lot. Jones doesn't have that luxury.

The appeal of drafting him was his coaching background and his polish. That hasn't come to pass.
Because what you are worrying about is like 99 things down  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/21/2021 12:29 am : link
the list of what generally makes a good QB.

Can it be an issue? Sure, the shorter the pass you need to do this on the, the bigger it opens you to a guy jumping routes. Has it been an issue? Saw a little bit of it when there was more hesitation in his game in beginning of year. Anticipation beats quick release/arm strenght at the end of the day. Everyone sees the arm strength, but they rarely recognize anticipation and its what seperates the good from great QBs. Rivers is going to put on a gold jacket in a decade.

Does he need to show better anticipation at times? Absolutely, but that comes with experience and I thought he did a good job for a 2nd year Pro last year. You either somehow see no good in him, or you don't expect him to take next step. I do and a lot of that is what we know from him mentally and the progress I've seen him make from start of year to beginning (they really broke him down to build him up) make me feel confident he does. All the guy needs are sets and reps. And I'm sure you'll go but so and so did this in his second year. Everyone's situation is different and he has one of the worst. Shit Dak Prescott's anticipation still sucks and he was putting up video game numbers because of the rest of the offense. But between his inconsistent mechanics (not a problem with DJ) and his anticipation keeps him breing a very good QB as merely opposed to a little bit above average.
Ball security and timing are far down the list of what's important?  
Go Terps : 1/21/2021 12:37 am : link
I don't agree, but ok...
I can't believe this when I read it  
Go Terps : 1/21/2021 12:38 am : link
"Absolutely, but that comes with experience and I thought he did a good job for a 2nd year Pro last year."

We're we watching the same thing?
RE: Ball security and timing are far down the list of what's important?  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/21/2021 12:51 am : link
In comment 15129530 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I don't agree, but ok...


This isn’t some massive ball security issue though, not like what I outlined above, like keeping the ball low. That’s a major problem that he cleaned up this year. I’m not sure what you are getting at with the timing thing, once again it’s about anticipation. And yes I thought he did a pretty good job there for a 2nd year QB.
Jones’ slow field recognition, average arm and suboptimal release  
cosmicj : 1/21/2021 6:40 am : link
Technique combine for a problem. Then there’s his pocket awareness.

This is the NFL where split seconds are key. Would anyone say about a WR, “their 4.7 40 is no problem, it’s just a fraction of a second difference from the fastest players”? No. This is the same parameter: getting the ball to the right place at the right time.

I maintained that Jones was persistently late in delivering the balls to receivers. Not always, but a lot more often than good QBs. I think the three defects above provide the physical explanation for the problem. Those are a lot of things to overcome. It all suggests Jones is a project.
Am I missing..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/21/2021 8:53 am : link
the point of taking a still shot and being a QB expert, or is this just more bitching that Jones will suck because of a myriad of reasons??




I noticed these pics weren't used:



Is this really the level of analysis now?

RE: Am I missing..  
Matt M. : 1/21/2021 9:00 am : link
In comment 15129582 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the point of taking a still shot and being a QB expert, or is this just more bitching that Jones will suck because of a myriad of reasons??




I noticed these pics weren't used:



Is this really the level of analysis now?
But FatMan, you chose stills from different points in the throwing motion, so you are a great big fail, you know nothing, blah blah blah.
Matt...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/21/2021 9:03 am : link
It is absolute madness.

Just when I think a point of absurdity can't be reached, it is taken by storm by a marauding band with red-hot pitchfork tines.
I'm worried..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/21/2021 9:09 am : link
about Jones balance. Look how he awkwardly is trying to touch the turf instead of protect the ball!!! This is why he fumbles!!!!


He's fucking doing it again!! Who coaches this schmuck?
The..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/21/2021 9:13 am : link
right way to fall - see how the ball is forward??


RE: .  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/21/2021 9:18 am : link
In comment 15126295 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Bill Walsh used to tell his staff that they were only competing with about 8 teams. The rest didn't know what they were doing. What are the Giants going to be in 2021? Does it feel like they're one of the 8 or so teams that knows what it's doing?


Jesus Christ - why don't we get a Lombardi comment to go with that?? Walsh coached predominantly in an era with no salary cap. An era where there was an upper tier of teams from both a talent and coaching standpoint.

Since 2000, there has been turnover of more than 50% of the playoff teams year over year consistently. Those "8 teams" rotate in and out. It's why the NFC South went through an 8 year stretch without a repeat division winner. It's why the NFC East is in a stretch like that now.

Can we get some wisdom from George Halas while you're fucking at it??
...  
christian : 1/21/2021 9:27 am : link
FMiC -- in real time, when you watch Jones throw the football -- do you not notice Jones has a long windup and a lot of moving parts in his motion?
RE: ...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/21/2021 9:29 am : link
In comment 15129601 christian said:
Quote:
FMiC -- in real time, when you watch Jones throw the football -- do you not notice Jones has a long windup and a lot of moving parts in his motion?


Why the fuck does that matter if I can just take a still shot and make comments from that?
I agree with  
JonC : 1/21/2021 9:42 am : link
locking up LW, bargain hunting UFA, and nailing the draft. Not seeing many UFA answers that also make sense for NYG. The roster right now is just too far away from spending on big pieces. Keep it smart, keep it to being strategic like a year ago.

Jones and Barkley have a ton to prove moving forward, otherwise it will be time to seek replacements. If Jones winds up not the QB of the future, it potentially sets things back again.
welp  
djm : 1/21/2021 9:52 am : link
Jones now has a weird hitch according to BBI.

Incredible.
Jones' throwing motion  
JonC : 1/21/2021 9:57 am : link
is extra large and his release is probably below average if timed. His bugaboos aren't a secret if you know what to watch for, he's got plenty of things to clean up in order to be the QB to build around.
Suggest it would be a bit shocking for the NY Giants not  
chick310 : 1/21/2021 10:04 am : link
to bring in at least one higher end Wide Receiver and/or Tight End during Free Agency period.

There was too much talk about adding playmakers to the offense after the season was over from front office regarding what they need to do differently. So this was clearly a coordinated message that they have specifically discussed already and shows necessary support for their commitment with Daniel Jones.
And if I recall correctly, that picture of Daniel Jones  
chick310 : 1/21/2021 10:11 am : link
stretched out with his hand on the ground is when he amusingly tripped/collapsed on his own after the 70-yard run in the first Philadelphia game.



RE: RE: ...  
christian : 1/21/2021 10:11 am : link
In comment 15129604 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Why the fuck does that matter if I can just take a still shot and make comments from that?


I genuinely like discussing football with you. In the minority of time you stick to football you're a pleasant exchange. Your little explosions with little to no value have swung from the minority to the majority of your posts over the years. I miss the 1999 version of you, you peppered more football into your rants then.
They need talent at WR desperately  
JonC : 1/21/2021 10:11 am : link
but if you analyze the UFA options expected to be out there, there's a lot of warts and risk involved with said players. Got to be smart, don't need more Tate/Solder desperate signings that fail to deliver beyond eating up a pile of cap space.
RE: welp  
christian : 1/21/2021 10:13 am : link
In comment 15129624 djm said:
Quote:
Jones now has a weird hitch according to BBI.

Incredible.


It's not the hitch, it's the long motion with lots of moving parts. Spend 15 minutes looking at clips from both years.

This is a guy who's led the league in fumbles per drop back both of his years in the NFL. This isn't mysterious.
Would agree that we don't want desperate type signings  
chick310 : 1/21/2021 10:18 am : link
at WR, like a Golden Tate. But that doesn't mean Giants aren't going to go shopping for somebody that can provide some impact.

Unfortunately, the situation is a bit desperate to score more via the passing game to everyone. And right/wrong/indifferent this front office has shown tendencies in recent past of making mistakes when desperate.

We shall see if happens again.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/21/2021 10:24 am : link
In comment 15129657 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15129604 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Why the fuck does that matter if I can just take a still shot and make comments from that?



I genuinely like discussing football with you. In the minority of time you stick to football you're a pleasant exchange. Your little explosions with little to no value have swung from the minority to the majority of your posts over the years. I miss the 1999 version of you, you peppered more football into your rants then.


C'mon. What is there seriously to discuss when a snapshot of Jones is shown and you have a group of people saying "Yep. There's a problem!!".

We aren't discussing football. We are having a confirmation bias circle jerk taken from a still shot, framed under the guise of there being some "Aha" moment not seen with other QB's.

There are plenty of threads where I'm talking about football. I'm trying to figure out where the football discussion is on this one.
......  
Route 9 : 1/21/2021 10:24 am : link
Who doesn't miss 1999?
RE: They need talent at WR desperately  
christian : 1/21/2021 10:24 am : link
In comment 15129658 JonC said:
Quote:
but if you analyze the UFA options expected to be out there, there's a lot of warts and risk involved with said players. Got to be smart, don't need more Tate/Solder desperate signings that fail to deliver beyond eating up a pile of cap space.


If I'm drawing up a fantasy offseason -- I trim the fat of veterans (Solder, Tate, Zeitler, and the minor characters) and got after:

1) Thuney as the prize of the offseason
2) A Sam Ebukam type, value edge rush linebacker to replace Frackrell
3) A Rashard Higgins type, WR who's arrow is pointing way up
3)
RE: Would agree that we don't want desperate type signings  
Route 9 : 1/21/2021 10:27 am : link
In comment 15129665 chick310 said:
Quote:
at WR, like a Golden Tate. But that doesn't mean Giants aren't going to go shopping for somebody that can provide some impact.

Unfortunately, the situation is a bit desperate to score more via the passing game to everyone. And right/wrong/indifferent this front office has shown tendencies in recent past of making mistakes when desperate.

We shall see if happens again.


Holy shit, I keep forgetting about Golden Tate, and I keep forgetting he's still on the team. Thank you for ruining my morning.
remarkable that this went for 63,000 yards  
Ron Johnson : 1/21/2021 10:31 am : link
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
christian : 1/21/2021 10:32 am : link
In comment 15129670 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
C'mon. What is there seriously to discuss when a snapshot of Jones is shown and you have a group of people saying "Yep. There's a problem!!".

We aren't discussing football. We are having a confirmation bias circle jerk taken from a still shot, framed under the guise of there being some "Aha" moment not seen with other QB's.

There are plenty of threads where I'm talking about football. I'm trying to figure out where the football discussion is on this one.


Jones's throwing motion is something Terps and I have discussed at length over the last few months. I suspect that's why he posted it in this thread.

Jones has led the league in fumbles per drop back now twice. I think it's quite fair to question whether his wind up is a contributor.

If you take a look at the link I posed above, he seems get the ball knocked out of his hands a lot mid-motion.
RE: Would agree that we don't want desperate type signings  
JonC : 1/21/2021 10:33 am : link
In comment 15129665 chick310 said:
Quote:
at WR, like a Golden Tate. But that doesn't mean Giants aren't going to go shopping for somebody that can provide some impact.

Unfortunately, the situation is a bit desperate to score more via the passing game to everyone. And right/wrong/indifferent this front office has shown tendencies in recent past of making mistakes when desperate.

We shall see if happens again.


Show me the players to target, there are very few, is the point.
While you may not like the WRs available this year in  
chick310 : 1/21/2021 10:38 am : link
free agency, but that isn't the point, or at least not what I was suggesting. The Giants are likely going to stick their foot in the water this March and it's very possible they wind up swimming in the deep end.
christian  
JonC : 1/21/2021 10:41 am : link
I think it's the more valid path, not seeing may home run options out there right now, so build smart with players/characters who fit what they're building. Maybe they can add enough, and get healthy enough, to push for a playoff spot in 2021. NFCE could be weak again ...
I understand  
JonC : 1/21/2021 10:42 am : link
and would not be shocked if they took a gamble, and one I'm not thrilled with. Hope they're wise, but there's considerable reactionary moves under DG. I was right about Tate, a repeat would suck.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/21/2021 10:45 am : link
In comment 15129682 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15129670 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


C'mon. What is there seriously to discuss when a snapshot of Jones is shown and you have a group of people saying "Yep. There's a problem!!".

We aren't discussing football. We are having a confirmation bias circle jerk taken from a still shot, framed under the guise of there being some "Aha" moment not seen with other QB's.

There are plenty of threads where I'm talking about football. I'm trying to figure out where the football discussion is on this one.



Jones's throwing motion is something Terps and I have discussed at length over the last few months. I suspect that's why he posted it in this thread.

Jones has led the league in fumbles per drop back now twice. I think it's quite fair to question whether his wind up is a contributor.

If you take a look at the link I posed above, he seems get the ball knocked out of his hands a lot mid-motion.


And these type of fumbles seemed to disappear once we got some competent LT play. Is he still going to fumble a couple times a year because of this? Probably, but there are 100 things that are more important than this. It's not even Darnold or Jameis level bad.

The big issue with QBs fumbling is keeping the ball low before the throwing motion. Some guys, once the bullets fly the drop back to bad habits. DJ did a good job of cleaning that up this year. I'm more worried about him dropping the ball when he takes off to run. This needs to be cleaned up, but is extremely hard to beat out of guys. One thing at a time though and I feel like this is going to be the next coaching point as far as ball security.

This slightly extended throwing motion is not a big a deal as you are making it out to be and certainly something that doesn't need to be retooled at this point of time. Not even sure its worth it to fuck around with his mechanics. It's not even Darnold or Jameis level bad. It can be a tip on those intermediate or deep routes, but like I said, it's all about anticipation there anyway. Anticipation rules the day and why we need some guys that actually get open outside of Shep. Nothing to anticipate if nothing there. How many interceptions did he throw when going to Shep? My guess would be zero and there's a reason for that.

Agreed. The Tate deal was bad from a number of ways  
chick310 : 1/21/2021 10:49 am : link
including the type of WR he was, where his productivity was heading, his age, and a fairly ridiculous contract to boot.

While I think a lot of fans point to 2020 as an example of a more reasonable shopping period for the Giants, desperation to get better sooner, and determine if Jones is the right piece at QB could tip the scales back to bad habits.

Like I suggested, we shall see.
If Antonio Brown would come here for a low guranteed contract  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/21/2021 10:50 am : link
I'd sign up for that in a second. After playing good citizen not sure that's feasible. Obviously would be attractive to him due to no other number 1 threat.
RE: remarkable that this went for 63,000 yards  
bw in dc : 1/21/2021 10:53 am : link
In comment 15129680 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:


LOL. I think the fact that Rivers can have a throwing motion like he's shot-putting a bowling ball, and still put up those numbers, is first ballot worthy... ;)

He's sort of the Jim Furyk of QBs. Somehow it worked...
RE: Came across this picture in the NY Post today  
Thegratefulhead : 1/21/2021 10:53 am : link
In comment 15129450 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Ball is way too fucking low.
OP  
Thegratefulhead : 1/21/2021 11:05 am : link
I have almost made this thread a couple of times and chose not to.


In the last 7 seasons, 6 ended in DOUBLE DIGIT LOSSES.

41-71 over the last 7 years.

That sucks.

Some us are sick of excuses.

The constant defense of the NYG considering the magnitude of the suck is absurd.

...  
christian : 1/21/2021 11:12 am : link
There isn't a tidy aggregation of 2020 fumbles I can find, but if you look at them individually, by my count 9 of 11 fumbles came with the ball in his hands, in the pocket.

To my eye, he's still holding the ball low and away from his body when he gets into his motion, he's tapping, and he's got an elongated delivery. All of those things logically contribute to the ball coming out when he's hit. I group all of those thing together as the problem.

One part of the solution is getting him hit less. For all the optimism about the line progressing, the rate Jones was hit didn't really decrease over the 2nd half of the season (being injured contributes).

Seems like a compounding problem, Jones gets hit a lot, and when he gets hit he gives up the ball. Both those things could stand improvement.
christian...  
bw in dc : 1/21/2021 11:26 am : link
Go watch that first TD Rodgers threw last week near the goalline to Adams. It is uncanny how quickly he threw that ball, and with speed and mustard.

DJ does not have anywhere near that type of stroke in his arsenal. Just too slow off the mark...
FMIC  
Go Terps : 1/21/2021 11:38 am : link
Even by your standard this is obtuse.
RE: christian  
Go Terps : 1/21/2021 11:41 am : link
In comment 15129697 JonC said:
Quote:
I think it's the more valid path, not seeing may home run options out there right now, so build smart with players/characters who fit what they're building. Maybe they can add enough, and get healthy enough, to push for a playoff spot in 2021. NFCE could be weak again ...


That divisional weakness should be more motivation to improve at quarterback if anything.

They should be scouting the QBs in FA and the draft hard.
RE: FMIC  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/21/2021 11:42 am : link
In comment 15129801 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Even by your standard this is obtuse.


By my standards?? You pulled a fucking still photo out and are breaking it down like you are a QB coach!!

And you think you've made an astute point!
It's a point I and others have made in the past about him  
Go Terps : 1/21/2021 11:51 am : link
And if you haven't noticed it, you might want to find another sport to follow.

Daniel Jones's throwing mechanics suck. Combine that with no pocket presence and it's no surprise he finally so much, and he's so often late in the red zone and on throws outside the numbers.

You want to say that's bullshit because I'm not Bill Walsh, fine. But you don't need to be a pilot to know a plane shouldn't be flown into a mountain.
RE: christian...  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/21/2021 11:59 am : link
In comment 15129780 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Go watch that first TD Rodgers threw last week near the goalline to Adams. It is uncanny how quickly he threw that ball, and with speed and mustard.

DJ does not have anywhere near that type of stroke in his arsenal. Just too slow off the mark...


This is just not true, shit he showed he could do that in his very first game in the redzone TD to Shephard.

People are focusing way too much on what is going on up top and it's not even poor. Most QBs are bringing the ball down to throw intermediate or deep passes.

What that play really highlights is our need for a fucking WR that can go up and win 1 v 1 battles like that. I'm really hoping Kyle Pitts is there and the pick.

*fumbles not finally  
Go Terps : 1/21/2021 12:00 pm : link
.
Throwing mechanics are so fucking overblown.  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/21/2021 12:06 pm : link
One he has great feet, which is important for the guys that aren't baseball stars. Two whats going on up top isn't as bad as you are making it out to be. His throwing mechanics suck? Talk about hyperbole. Is it perfect? No, but it's certainly not this massive issue.

The big deal about mechanics is they generate consistent results. It's really overblown as there are lots of ways to skin a cat. Shit I can show you a ton of throws Mahomes misses because his feet stink. It's not like DJ is consistently missing throws. In fact, he's certainly plus in this category. The problem with this team is opportunites in pass game are absolutely limited because of the talent among our pass catchers so every miss gets blown to kingdom come.
The biggest thing I looked for from him this year was  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/21/2021 12:09 pm : link
he gets lazy dropping the ball when he moves around the pocket. He was night and day between last year and this year and even improved as the season went on. The one egregious example I remember is the end of the Eagles game, where he was going to need to uncork one down the field with 20 seconds left, so situationally it made sense.

Still needs to pick the ball up once he decideds to run, and certainly an uphill battle here, but one ball security coaching point at a time.
RE: RE: christian...  
bw in dc : 1/21/2021 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15129843 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15129780 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Go watch that first TD Rodgers threw last week near the goalline to Adams. It is uncanny how quickly he threw that ball, and with speed and mustard.

DJ does not have anywhere near that type of stroke in his arsenal. Just too slow off the mark...



This is just not true, shit he showed he could do that in his very first game in the redzone TD to Shephard.

People are focusing way too much on what is going on up top and it's not even poor. Most QBs are bringing the ball down to throw intermediate or deep passes.

What that play really highlights is our need for a fucking WR that can go up and win 1 v 1 battles like that. I'm really hoping Kyle Pitts is there and the pick.


The ball being low in DJ's windup is less concerning to me than his slower, longer windup. I wonder if Jones can make an adjustment to a shorter, more efficient stroke. It's a very tough thing to alter muscle memory like that. But in my opinion he should consider it...

I seriously doubt you think DJ has the type of throw I was referring to in the Rodgers example. That's just a different level of class.

Look, I'm big into big arm talent. That just provides such a luxury when you can't be mechanically sound. And greater margin for error. Unfortunately, that's just not who Jones is. Which may be fine, but the clock is ticking...

For me, it’s the combination of flaws that makes the  
cosmicj : 1/21/2021 12:42 pm : link
Jones situation so concerning. So Jones needs to rework his mechanics, and also significantly improve how to read the field and also learn how to move within the pocket and sense pressure much better. And he could add some arm strength, too. And his accuracy should get better (while he reworks his mechanics)!

Wow, that is a lot. It sounds like Jones is a project.
The slower, longer windup is a problem when it lets guys jump  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/21/2021 12:45 pm : link
routes in intermediate range. Really hasn't been a problem since the Rams/Bears game. Anticipation is what's important and everyone works in their sandbox

I watched that throw Rodgers made and its not like this was a throw 30 yards down the sideline. It was a 12-15 yard back shoulder to sideline. Except it wasn't even a good throw though, Adams made a play and took it to the house. We need a guy that can do that. Go look at the throw DJ makes to Shep in that Bucs game to corner of the endzone. High Difficulty throw with touch that comes out with lighting quick release.
Whoa..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/21/2021 12:48 pm : link
just because a couple chuckleheads on BBI say that Jones needs to rework his mechanics doesn't make it so. I'm not seeing comments about his mechanics anywhere but from a ridiculous snapshot by one of the site's most negative guys.

The questions are there on his decision making and reading the field.

Quote:
“I like him,’’ Greg McElroy said. “I think he’s got all the physical skills that you would want. Traditional release, he’s athletic enough in today’s day and age in the NFL, he can run. There’s some examples where he gets kind of stuck on something and he sticks with it a little too long and it leads to a bad decision or it leads to the pocket collapsing around him.


Quote:
“I see a tremendous upside,’’ Jeremiah said. “I don’t think he’s gonna be a top-five quarterback. I think top 10-12 quarterback, perennial playoff quarterback. You put the right pieces around him, you could win at the highest level. But he’s going to be dependent on what’s around him. That’s normal. There’s only a handful of quarterbacks that can win and play really well independent of what’s around him.’’


The two above were comments from this season.

From Ourlads scouting prior to being drafted:
Quote:
PROS
Outstanding mechanics in both upper and lower body leads to consistently pretty and accurate throws. Creates an excellent throwing base with his legs and is typically squared to the target, maximizing a less-than-elite, but still easily NFL-caliber arm.

CONS
Inconsistent. Rhythm player too easily knocked off rhythm. Prone to questionable decision making in the pocket, including forcing throws into traffic and failing to prioritize ball security


This talk about mechanics is a couple of schmucks on BBI playing the role of QB guru.
Fatman....this is what I'm talkin about  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/21/2021 12:59 pm : link
His mechanics aren't this massive fucking problem. Things he could clean up sure, but he has outstanding feet (like all Cutcliffe QBs).

"Failing to prioritize ball security"

This is why I'm hopeful, it was obviously the biggest coaching point they went with into offseason and he's improved drastically there. He was higher and stronger with the ball going into the season and pretty much stopped forcing balls into coverage at all as the season went on.

There's a reason that they pretty much announced our intentions for this offseason because its OBVIOUS to the rest of the NFL. This team drastically needs weapons outside Saquon and we can't put all our eggs into that basket. It's hard to exhibit anticipation and reading the field well when nobody gets consistently open. We need to add something to actually understand what we have in DJ so that decision can be made because while I'm optimistic, it still needs to materialize.

Instead we have people here with pitchforks because he missed a backside check down 4th read that you pretty much should only expect out of very seasoned QBs. He keeps his eyes downfield, which at this stage is the most important thing. Problem is we don't have guys that get open down field.

Zeke  
Go Terps : 1/21/2021 1:07 pm : link
I agree the receivers don't get open. That's because the GM did a bad job assembling the roster, and the offensive coordinator did a bad job scheming the receivers open. The Giants' response to this is to bring the GM and offensive coordinator back.

Enjoy Jones's mechanics while you can. Between his limitations and the shortcomings of the people helping him, his days as the starting quarterback are numbered.
Here we go  
Thegratefulhead : 1/21/2021 1:09 pm : link
2020 was bad for Jones because of:

Insert any fucking excuse you want.

Results never matter on BBI.

All of that said, I have not given up on the kid.

Next year, the road needs to meet the rubber with Jones.

I am exhausted by the perennial kicking of the can down the road.

Win or GTFO.
RE: Whoa..  
christian : 1/21/2021 2:24 pm : link
In comment 15129911 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
just because a couple chuckleheads on BBI say that Jones needs to rework his mechanics doesn't make it so. I'm not seeing comments about his mechanics anywhere but from a ridiculous snapshot by one of the site's most negative guys.


With two years of NFL observation, you don't think his pre-throw mechanics have any bearing on how frequently the ball comes out when he's about to throw the ball?
I think it’s more reasonable to conclude  
cosmicj : 1/22/2021 6:29 am : link
That college scouts gave Jones a good or passing grade on form when he was coming out of college but that the higher competitive level in the NFL has exposed flaws. Now Jones may be able to rectify this but it’s just one of the issues he faces.
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