Enough is Enough With the Giants Sucking

I have zero faith in Mara firing Gettleman and/or cutting Jones and not extending saquon. And we’ll have the same band of apologists on this board making excuses

who is a running back that does not like contact and is injured with regularity. We play an offense scheme that looks nothing like teams that win and make the playoffs. Our owner is holding us down. We have no tight ends that are a threat to the defense for how many years now? Our GM is Dave Gettleman. Our QB struggled to win in college.

the basic message. Enough of the excuses. While we were making excuses for this season's team - new coach, no OTAs, no preseason, etc - remember that except for Barkley they really had no major injuries and when it came time to show how much the team improved they got blown out in three straight games.

Can you explain?

Can anyone tell me what's wrong with that picture?

To answer my own question...how do mechanics that poor get through Cutcliffe AND NFL coaches?

But it is a single still photo.

Different game.[img]
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fempiresportsmedia.com%2Fnew-york-giants%2Fwhy-the-new-york-giants-are-smart-not-to-throw-daniel-jones-into-the-fire%2F&psig=AOvVaw2jgbgzhu4VRstaQIU2wrRk&ust=1611281808432000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCOCtmfD6q-4CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE[img]

In comment 15129464 cosmicj said:

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But it is a single still photo.

I would say the same thing if it didn't corroborate everything I've seen for two seasons. That image captures why he fumbles so much, and why he's late so often.

A lot of photos don’t have the file postfix thing, but take a look at this
DJ form - ( New Window )

.
DJ form - ( New Window )

Looks similar to Jones.
Rodgers - ( New Window )

If you're gonna teach your kid how to throw, this is where you point him.

Look at Elway here. And he tapped the ball before the fired it.

...

1. He's going to fumble a lot
2. He's going to be late on throws outside the numbers
3. He's going to struggle in the red zone, where timing and a quick release are crucial

I can't think of one example where bad mechanics were coached out of a quarterback at the NFL level.

Some of the guys with ridiculous arms have mechanics you wouldn't teach to mortals. And even some guys with huge arms were held back by bad mechanics (Kerry Collins and Jay Cutler come to mind).

Jones does not have a huge arm. He can't afford to have such poor mechanics.

In comment 15129485 Go Terps said:

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Some of the guys with ridiculous arms have mechanics you wouldn't teach to mortals. And even some guys with huge arms were held back by bad mechanics (Kerry Collins and Jay Cutler come to mind). Jones does not have a huge arm. He can't afford to have such poor mechanics.

There is some truth to that for sure. Which is why I prefer prospects with plus / plus-plus arm talent. Mechanics can always be improved. Look at Rodgers and his delivery when he was at Cal. Allen has had incremental improvement at Buffalo.

I think the tell in the Jones photo might be that he really has to wind up at times to get the ball to a spot...??

He does it on every throw as far as I can tell.

1. Ball comes down to belly
2. Taps ball at belly
3. Brings ball back up 1 handed and far out from his body
4. Rotates ball so it's below his arm and pointing behind him
5. Comes up over the top to release

Lots of time. Lots of moving parts. It's really noticeable in the red zone, where the passes are shorter and quicker. The ball takes forever to come out.

In comment 15129484 Go Terps said:

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1. He's going to fumble a lot 2. He's going to be late on throws outside the numbers 3. He's going to struggle in the red zone, where timing and a quick release are crucial I can't think of one example where bad mechanics were coached out of a quarterback at the NFL level.

Reading this, I keep going back to the 2 point conversion attempt against Tampa.

There's also a red zone attempt from the Pittsburgh game. It was their first trip into the red zone, and Jones threw an incompletion that was nearly picked.

It is always going to be a problem.

This is last year, but it’s worth taking a look at how many of his fumbles come at the bottom of his wind up.
Fumbles - ( New Window )

Taken?

In comment 15129500 crick n NC said:

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Taken?

He's got the C on his jersey, so it's this season.

That motion is baked in. It is always going to be a thing.

In comment 15129488 Go Terps said:

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He does it on every throw as far as I can tell. 1. Ball comes down to belly 2. Taps ball at belly 3. Brings ball back up 1 handed and far out from his body 4. Rotates ball so it's below his arm and pointing behind him 5. Comes up over the top to release Lots of time. Lots of moving parts. It's really noticeable in the red zone, where the passes are shorter and quicker. The ball takes forever to come out.

I'd like to see what Jones's release time is versus contemporaries. Like I said before DJ was drafted, I didn't see anything other ordinary arm talent. And he doesn't seem to possess the ability to effectively change arm angles to make plays either. Very much a QB "by the numbers".

If he really is the guy going forward I believe an awful lot of capital/draft luck is going to be needed to optimize Jones's ability in the pocket.

Which is why you can't help but conclude right now that he's way more game manager than force multiplier.

he didn't look so clunky at his pro day. He looked polished and threw a really nice ball... especially in the red zone.

Some guys practice better than they play.

We've heard so much about how detail oriented Judge is. We've seen it when he breaks down film on their YouTube channel. He is super detail oriented, and well schooled about technique everywhere on the field.

Judge was a quarterback himself. I find it impossible to believe he isn't fully aware of this problem with Jones. Having been a quarterback himself he is also going to know that coaching bad mechanics out of Jones is extremely difficult and a bad use of time and resources.

I have a hard time believing Judge is completely comfortable with Jones as his quarterback. It doesn't add up.

down. Almost all QBs do this now. In fact the only place you don't see it really as at high school level where they are trying to teach fundamenals and keeping your arm up through and after the release. Where your arm is early in throwing motion isn't a big deal. In fact it's a lot like golf that way I believe, the most important parts are key points in swing/throw.

What needs to be a concern is holding the ball low prior to throwing. He had some issues here last year that he's cleaned up. Low release point is an issue to, both losing power and create opps for batted passes, which isn't an issue. Shit your favorite passer in the NFL, Lamar is a much worse example of this.

And if you knew anything about Cutcliffe, he's all about building QBs from the feet. Doesn't really focus on whats going on uptop and why the guys he trains all looks the same from chest down, but differ up top.

plenty of highlights there showing a quick fast release. Shit I just watched a td throw in redzone running play action showing same thing.

Most QBs are doing this on deep and intermediate routes.

I wouldn't teach Lamar's mechanics to anyone. The problem is Jones doesn't create passing opportunities with his legs like Lamar does.

And I don't agree with what you saying about throwing mechanics in general. When you lack great skills like Jones does, you have to be efficient with your movement to get the ball out on time and accurately. Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen... These guys have supernatural arm strength and can get away with a lot. Jones doesn't have that luxury.

The appeal of drafting him was his coaching background and his polish. That hasn't come to pass.

the list of what generally makes a good QB.

Can it be an issue? Sure, the shorter the pass you need to do this on the, the bigger it opens you to a guy jumping routes. Has it been an issue? Saw a little bit of it when there was more hesitation in his game in beginning of year. Anticipation beats quick release/arm strenght at the end of the day. Everyone sees the arm strength, but they rarely recognize anticipation and its what seperates the good from great QBs. Rivers is going to put on a gold jacket in a decade.

Does he need to show better anticipation at times? Absolutely, but that comes with experience and I thought he did a good job for a 2nd year Pro last year. You either somehow see no good in him, or you don't expect him to take next step. I do and a lot of that is what we know from him mentally and the progress I've seen him make from start of year to beginning (they really broke him down to build him up) make me feel confident he does. All the guy needs are sets and reps. And I'm sure you'll go but so and so did this in his second year. Everyone's situation is different and he has one of the worst. Shit Dak Prescott's anticipation still sucks and he was putting up video game numbers because of the rest of the offense. But between his inconsistent mechanics (not a problem with DJ) and his anticipation keeps him breing a very good QB as merely opposed to a little bit above average.

I don't agree, but ok...

"Absolutely, but that comes with experience and I thought he did a good job for a 2nd year Pro last year."

We're we watching the same thing?

In comment 15129530 Go Terps said:

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I don't agree, but ok...

This isn’t some massive ball security issue though, not like what I outlined above, like keeping the ball low. That’s a major problem that he cleaned up this year. I’m not sure what you are getting at with the timing thing, once again it’s about anticipation. And yes I thought he did a pretty good job there for a 2nd year QB.

Technique combine for a problem. Then there’s his pocket awareness.

This is the NFL where split seconds are key. Would anyone say about a WR, “their 4.7 40 is no problem, it’s just a fraction of a second difference from the fastest players”? No. This is the same parameter: getting the ball to the right place at the right time.

I maintained that Jones was persistently late in delivering the balls to receivers. Not always, but a lot more often than good QBs. I think the three defects above provide the physical explanation for the problem. Those are a lot of things to overcome. It all suggests Jones is a project.

the point of taking a still shot and being a QB expert, or is this just more bitching that Jones will suck because of a myriad of reasons??




I noticed these pics weren't used:



Is this really the level of analysis now?

In comment 15129582 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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the point of taking a still shot and being a QB expert, or is this just more bitching that Jones will suck because of a myriad of reasons?? I noticed these pics weren't used: Is this really the level of analysis now?

But FatMan, you chose stills from different points in the throwing motion, so you are a great big fail, you know nothing, blah blah blah.

It is absolute madness.

Just when I think a point of absurdity can't be reached, it is taken by storm by a marauding band with red-hot pitchfork tines.

about Jones balance. Look how he awkwardly is trying to touch the turf instead of protect the ball!!! This is why he fumbles!!!!


He's fucking doing it again!! Who coaches this schmuck?

right way to fall - see how the ball is forward??

In comment 15126295 Go Terps said:

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Bill Walsh used to tell his staff that they were only competing with about 8 teams. The rest didn't know what they were doing. What are the Giants going to be in 2021? Does it feel like they're one of the 8 or so teams that knows what it's doing?

Jesus Christ - why don't we get a Lombardi comment to go with that?? Walsh coached predominantly in an era with no salary cap. An era where there was an upper tier of teams from both a talent and coaching standpoint.

Since 2000, there has been turnover of more than 50% of the playoff teams year over year consistently. Those "8 teams" rotate in and out. It's why the NFC South went through an 8 year stretch without a repeat division winner. It's why the NFC East is in a stretch like that now.

Can we get some wisdom from George Halas while you're fucking at it??

FMiC -- in real time, when you watch Jones throw the football -- do you not notice Jones has a long windup and a lot of moving parts in his motion?

In comment 15129601 christian said:

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FMiC -- in real time, when you watch Jones throw the football -- do you not notice Jones has a long windup and a lot of moving parts in his motion?

Why the fuck does that matter if I can just take a still shot and make comments from that?

locking up LW, bargain hunting UFA, and nailing the draft. Not seeing many UFA answers that also make sense for NYG. The roster right now is just too far away from spending on big pieces. Keep it smart, keep it to being strategic like a year ago.

Jones and Barkley have a ton to prove moving forward, otherwise it will be time to seek replacements. If Jones winds up not the QB of the future, it potentially sets things back again.

Jones now has a weird hitch according to BBI.

Incredible.

is extra large and his release is probably below average if timed. His bugaboos aren't a secret if you know what to watch for, he's got plenty of things to clean up in order to be the QB to build around.

to bring in at least one higher end Wide Receiver and/or Tight End during Free Agency period.

There was too much talk about adding playmakers to the offense after the season was over from front office regarding what they need to do differently. So this was clearly a coordinated message that they have specifically discussed already and shows necessary support for their commitment with Daniel Jones.

stretched out with his hand on the ground is when he amusingly tripped/collapsed on his own after the 70-yard run in the first Philadelphia game.