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What is it with this KC offense

stoneman : 1/17/2021 4:41 pm
they basically have 2 guys - Hill, Kelce, and the rest are JAGs, including the Oline. Then you have Mahomes that can buy the time for Hill and Kelse to work open.

Can Judge put together a similar offense with Jones. They would need Pits and then Waddle. Not sure if Waddle is shifty enough as Hill, but just as fast. Pitts is easily Kelce.

Very doable to pick Pitts at #11, and then trade up if Waddle falls past 25 or so. One can dream.
Kelce is a good two way TE.  
robbieballs2003 : 1/17/2021 4:42 pm : link
Pitts is not that player.
FWIW  
NJBlueTuna : 1/17/2021 4:43 pm : link
Waddle is the same size and weight as Hill and almost as fast and every bit as explosive and shifty, maybe even more shifty/acceleration.
"Then you have Mahomes...."  
JohnB : 1/17/2021 4:53 pm : link
hey, he makes a difference too
And lets not forget Andy Reid  
robbieballs2003 : 1/17/2021 4:54 pm : link
.
The best part of  
Josh in the City : 1/17/2021 5:00 pm : link
Mahomes’ game is his pocket presence and his ability to feel and avoid the pass rush to buy time for his weapons to get open. The worst part of Jones’ game is his pocket presence and ability to feel and avoid the rush. Our offense will never look like the Chiefs offense with Jones at QB. And that’s not knocking Jones per se. They’re just completely different QB’s.
It's sad when a JAG on the Chiefs would be our best player  
sb from NYT Forum : 1/17/2021 5:02 pm : link
.
RE: And lets not forget Andy Reid  
kes722 : 1/17/2021 5:05 pm : link
In comment 15125906 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
.


He has always been an offensive guru
Judge  
OBJRoyal : 1/17/2021 5:07 pm : link
No, Judge cant do an offense like the cheifs, because Jones isnt anywhere Mahomes
Mahomes and that Oline make a difference too.....  
Simms11 : 1/17/2021 5:24 pm : link
It’s a very efficient offense and they have the ability to hit the big play at almost any moment, especially with a guy that has Mahomes arm.
2 guys... then Mahomes  
Mad Mike : 1/17/2021 5:29 pm : link
I think you have things out of order.
also want to mention Reid  
PaulBlakeTSU : 1/17/2021 5:34 pm : link
from a football perspective, I'm glad he won a ring to lose the stigma, because he has been the best coach of the last 20 years, other than Belichick

Clearly it’s Mahomes  
gersh : 1/17/2021 5:35 pm : link
You see that with Henne in now. Though nice play by hill there
Put together a similar offense with Jones?  
MookGiants : 1/17/2021 5:37 pm : link
Daniel Jones couldn't wipe Patrick Mahomes ass on his best day, and that's not really a knock on Jones.

The chiefs have great weapons and a great QB. The Giants don't have either
If you think the Chiefs offense is Jags other than Hill and Kelce  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/17/2021 5:40 pm : link
don’t know what to say. They have a very deep WR and RB core.
I can't see any scenario  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/17/2021 6:12 pm : link
in which the Giants are able to pick both Pits and Waddle.
Reid is a great offensive coach  
SomeFan : 1/17/2021 6:14 pm : link
A homes is a great QB and the o-line is better than you state, not to mention the skill players.
Mahomes is the best QB in the NFL  
JoeyBigBlue : 1/17/2021 6:17 pm : link
Kelce is the best TE in the NFL
Hill is a top 5 WR in the NFL.


That covers a ton of deficiencies.
Andy Reid  
MtDizzle : 1/17/2021 6:17 pm : link
is one of the best offensive minds of this generation. The fact that you think we can plug and play Judge and Jones as the role of Reid and Mahomes is comical.
RE: I can't see any scenario  
stoneman : 1/17/2021 6:19 pm : link
In comment 15126202 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
in which the Giants are able to pick both Pits and Waddle.


So there's no way Pitts doesn't last till 11 and Waddle doesn't fall abit for his injury history. We'll see.
It's  
darren in pdx : 1/17/2021 6:24 pm : link
a team sport where coaching and scheme is very important. I disagree that it's 'a bunch of JAGs' after those three players. That offense is loaded with talent in a very creative scheme that takes advantage of their ridiculous team speed.
RE: If you think the Chiefs offense is Jags other than Hill and Kelce  
stoneman : 1/17/2021 6:25 pm : link
In comment 15126068 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
don’t know what to say. They have a very deep WR and RB core.


I disagree. Hardman, Robinson, and Pringle are JAGs. Just because they are on KC does not make them a cut above JAGs. They are JAGs. The target totals tells the story.
RE: Put together a similar offense with Jones?  
section125 : 1/17/2021 6:26 pm : link
In comment 15126060 MookGiants said:
Quote:
Daniel Jones couldn't wipe Patrick Mahomes ass on his best day, and that's not really a knock on Jones.

The chiefs have great weapons and a great QB. The Giants don't have either


While you are right that Mahomes is beyond the best in football, is it really necessary to say Jones couldn't wipe his ass? There are 26 other QBs in the NFL that couldn't wipe his ass. Right now there are probably 2 HoFers playing that at this point couldn't wipe Mahomes ass.

How about Jones has the same WRs and TE and see how it goes. No Jones is not Mahomes and never will be even with that talent.
RE: RE: Put together a similar offense with Jones?  
MtDizzle : 1/17/2021 7:05 pm : link
In comment 15126230 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15126060 MookGiants said:


Quote:


Daniel Jones couldn't wipe Patrick Mahomes ass on his best day, and that's not really a knock on Jones.

The chiefs have great weapons and a great QB. The Giants don't have either



While you are right that Mahomes is beyond the best in football, is it really necessary to say Jones couldn't wipe his ass? There are 26 other QBs in the NFL that couldn't wipe his ass. Right now there are probably 2 HoFers playing that at this point couldn't wipe Mahomes ass.

How about Jones has the same WRs and TE and see how it goes. No Jones is not Mahomes and never will be even with that talent.


Stop pretending to be offended. Jones can’t wipe Mahomes ass realistically and any one can see that. No need to blindly defend your loyalty to the Giants to argue facts.
Andy Reid  
5BowlsSoon : 1/17/2021 7:09 pm : link
This guy is head and shoulders above all the other coaches save Bill.
it's hard to  
Producer : 1/17/2021 7:15 pm : link
believe some people still don't understand how good Mahomes is.

Oh yea they have this guy Mahomes.

Some people here think Mahomes couldn't do anything with the Giants offense. Uh.. yea he could.
Hill and Kelce were damn good before Mahomes  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/17/2021 7:35 pm : link
ever started a game. Andy used to make offenses work with Todd Pinkston and Freddie Mitchell running around/fucking up. Give him all of this and some other fast receivers and it had to work.
When Cleveland needed the ball back  
Ike#88 : 1/17/2021 7:55 pm : link
the right side of their defense was toasted. The right DE put his head down and head butted the offensive tackle as Henne dumped over him to the RB. If he kept his head up and got off the ground with his hands up the Browns could have forced a punt. Situational awareness was brutal by the Browns defense.
RE: RE: Put together a similar offense with Jones?  
MookGiants : 1/17/2021 9:24 pm : link
In comment 15126230 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15126060 MookGiants said:


Quote:


Daniel Jones couldn't wipe Patrick Mahomes ass on his best day, and that's not really a knock on Jones.

The chiefs have great weapons and a great QB. The Giants don't have either



While you are right that Mahomes is beyond the best in football, is it really necessary to say Jones couldn't wipe his ass? There are 26 other QBs in the NFL that couldn't wipe his ass. Right now there are probably 2 HoFers playing that at this point couldn't wipe Mahomes ass.

How about Jones has the same WRs and TE and see how it goes. No Jones is not Mahomes and never will be even with that talent.


Somehow you just failed to read the part where I said "That's not really a knock on Jones"
Mahomes makes that offense work  
FStubbs : 1/17/2021 10:13 pm : link
They were struggling to move the ball and needed miracles from Hill when Henne was in at QB.

If Henne is their QB next Sunday, the Bills will rout the Chiefs.
i thought Henne move the team well  
Grizz99 : 1/18/2021 1:13 am : link
The INT was a bad throw but excusable for a guy who just came in and hadn't had first team snaps.
I think that supports the notion that there's more to the Chiefs than just Mahomes. They went to the playoffs with Smith, the year before Mahomes go there.
It's always that way. You could make the argument that The Pats were more than Brady because they won with a back up during the year.
It takes both to have a quality team and you simply can't win with just one. I also point to Steve Young, a bust, he goes to San Fran and he's an immortal. Mahomes and Rogers are the best I've ever seen and I saw (if it's only dimmly remembered) Otto Graham and Johnie U. But There's guys as potentially good as them who never made it because of poor to ordinary surrounding casts of team and coaching.
If you had to choose Team is more important and a great team can compete with ordinary qb, but a great QB can NOT win without a very good team.
The notion (as expressed here) that Mahomes could go to any team and instantly turn them around is wishful thinking.

"Can Judge put together a similar offense with Jones"  
M.S. : 1/18/2021 7:57 am : link

Question from thread starter stoneman.

Short answer: No

Long answer: Daniel Jones has neither the pocket presence; flexibility; elusiveness; array of arm angle throws; vision; nor creativeness to re-create what Patrick Mahomes brings to the Kansas City offense. Not close.

RE:  
bw in dc : 1/18/2021 9:06 am : link
In comment 15126667 M.S. said:
Quote:

Question from thread starter stoneman.

Short answer: No

Long answer: Daniel Jones has neither the pocket presence; flexibility; elusiveness; array of arm angle throws; vision; nor creativeness to re-create what Patrick Mahomes brings to the Kansas City offense. Not close.


Your long answer nails it. Mahomes is a QB savant.

While Reid is an excellent offensive coach and play caller, Mahomes makes that offensive inimitable because of his genius to make plays off script. The word generational should be reserved for guys like him.
Well..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/18/2021 9:20 am : link
this thread went about the way I thought.

Just another chance to pile on Jones to proclaim him as a terrible QB.
RE: Well..  
HomerJones45 : 1/18/2021 9:40 am : link
In comment 15126721 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
this thread went about the way I thought.

Just another chance to pile on Jones to proclaim him as a terrible QB.
stay off it then. The OP posed a question that by its terms involved the qb position. In answer to the question, it’s fair game to point out differences between the KC qb and our own.
RE: RE: Well..  
BlueVinnie : 1/18/2021 9:59 am : link
In comment 15126749 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15126721 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


this thread went about the way I thought.

Just another chance to pile on Jones to proclaim him as a terrible QB.

stay off it then. The OP posed a question that by its terms involved the qb position. In answer to the question, it’s fair game to point out differences between the KC qb and our own.


Amen Homer!!!
RE: Well..  
M.S. : 1/18/2021 10:17 am : link
In comment 15126721 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
this thread went about the way I thought.

Just another chance to pile on Jones to proclaim him as a terrible QB.

Daniel Jones does some good things. He stands tall in the pocket and shows a lot of courage back there. And he throws a nice ball. He can gouge a defense with his legs, and if the Giants secure a true #1 WR next season via the Draft or Free Agency, I expect Daniel Jones' stats to improve.

But I stand by my comparison with Patrick Mahomes for a very simple reason: it's true.
Yeah, whats with this KC offense?  
j_rud : 1/18/2021 10:17 am : link
All they have is an all pro wideout, all pro 2-way TE, all pro/offensive player of the year/league MVP quarterback, and one of the best offensive minds of this generation playing maestro.

Truly mystifying.
So the plan  
eugibs : 1/18/2021 11:00 am : link
is to draft two elite all-pro skill position players and then, oh by the way, also have Dan Jones develop into as good a player as the best player in the NFL? Sure, I agree that could work out quite nicely for the Giants if it happened.
RE: Well..  
eugibs : 1/18/2021 11:00 am : link
In comment 15126721 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
this thread went about the way I thought.

Just another chance to pile on Jones to proclaim him as a terrible QB.


Never change.
I guess this plan works  
lax counsel : 1/18/2021 11:07 am : link
If Jones developed into the best qb in the game and the Giants add quality talent at every position. But, OP, if you watched the game after Mahomes went out you’d realize the offense is not much without him. So just that one little nagging thing of Jones playing at a Mahomes level.

I think a more realistic goal for Jones is throwing For more TD passes in 14 games than guys who missed more than half a season. Let’s start there.
RE: Yeah, whats with this KC offense?  
Thunderstruck27 : 1/18/2021 12:02 pm : link
In comment 15126785 j_rud said:
Quote:
All they have is an all pro wideout, all pro 2-way TE, all pro/offensive player of the year/league MVP quarterback, and one of the best offensive minds of this generation playing maestro.

Truly mystifying.


Seriously...put the best NFL QB and TE on the same team along with the most versatile WR in the NFL...it's almost like the other players on the team can just be decent in their roles and look good.
RE: RE: Well..  
LBH15 : 1/18/2021 12:11 pm : link
In comment 15126749 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15126721 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


this thread went about the way I thought.

Just another chance to pile on Jones to proclaim him as a terrible QB.

stay off it then. The OP posed a question that by its terms involved the qb position. In answer to the question, it’s fair game to point out differences between the KC qb and our own.


I guess the thread didn't go the way you thought afterall.
Great idea!  
Bob in VA : 1/18/2021 12:16 pm : link
Draft a couple guys, then ask Jones to do what Mahomes does. The simplicity is genius.

But wait! Don't tell any of the other teams.. because none of them are thinking all they need is a couple good draft picks.
When you look at the backgrounds of Olinemen for Kansas City  
LBH15 : 1/18/2021 12:19 pm : link
and Green Bay, it is a testament to how those franchises do a good job in both scouting and coaching those players.

While they may have the occasional high draft choice sitting on the line (ie., Eric Fisher), the balance is clearly made up of middle to late round picks, average free agent signees or just plain JAGs. Yet they get elite-level performancesout of them.

I don't know whether to be optimistic based on this when thinking about the NYG or just pissed off our guys can't do this too.

Back to the OP  
LBH15 : 1/18/2021 12:21 pm : link
Maybe good Tight Ends are difference makers when building a team?

Think there may have been a thread questioning that very topic a few days ago.
RE: When you look at the backgrounds of Olinemen for Kansas City  
Lines of Scrimmage : 1/18/2021 12:39 pm : link
In comment 15126920 LBH15 said:
Quote:
and Green Bay, it is a testament to how those franchises do a good job in both scouting and coaching those players.

While they may have the occasional high draft choice sitting on the line (ie., Eric Fisher), the balance is clearly made up of middle to late round picks, average free agent signees or just plain JAGs. Yet they get elite-level performancesout of them.

I don't know whether to be optimistic based on this when thinking about the NYG or just pissed off our guys can't do this too.


This is this biggest factor and great observation. Reid particularly has consistently put together good lines his whole career while maximizing QB's performances. Interestingly the last very good Giants OL was built with mostly lower picks.
RE: RE: When you look at the backgrounds of Olinemen for Kansas City  
lax counsel : 1/18/2021 2:36 pm : link
In comment 15126930 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
In comment 15126920 LBH15 said:


Quote:


and Green Bay, it is a testament to how those franchises do a good job in both scouting and coaching those players.

While they may have the occasional high draft choice sitting on the line (ie., Eric Fisher), the balance is clearly made up of middle to late round picks, average free agent signees or just plain JAGs. Yet they get elite-level performancesout of them.

I don't know whether to be optimistic based on this when thinking about the NYG or just pissed off our guys can't do this too.




This is this biggest factor and great observation. Reid particularly has consistently put together good lines his whole career while maximizing QB's performances. Interestingly the last very good Giants OL was built with mostly lower picks.


Very good points from both of you. In general, the Giants have done a miserable job scouting and developing Oline talent over the past decade, featuring some high round pick and free agents. Maybe this is changing now, but remains to be seen. I think the qbs also make the lines look very good. Both Mahomes and Rodgers have an elite sense and feel for the pocket and game in general, understanding when/how to navigate the pocket.

It is a tremendous advantage when you can assemble a quality oline from lower round draft picks and unheralded agents.
lax cousel  
Lines of Scrimmage : 1/18/2021 3:40 pm : link
huge mistake giving out big second contracts and third on the OL. The Giants did that. Dallas and Philly are in that dilemma now.

Keep drafting OL talent. Competition and weed out the older ones. At most only have a couple on big contracts.
RE: Well..  
Go Terps : 1/18/2021 4:07 pm : link
In comment 15126721 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
this thread went about the way I thought.

Just another chance to pile on Jones to proclaim him as a terrible QB.


People are going to continue to do that until he shows otherwise.

We're stuck in the worst era of Giants football many of us have ever lived through...what do you want?
RE: lax cousel  
LBH15 : 1/18/2021 6:36 pm : link
In comment 15127103 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
huge mistake giving out big second contracts and third on the OL. The Giants did that. Dallas and Philly are in that dilemma now.

Keep drafting OL talent. Competition and weed out the older ones. At most only have a couple on big contracts.


Not suggesting spending above value, but I am not typically opposed to giving out second contracts when warranted. Besides, I think the Giants have shown they are that good at identifying OL talent, so why let a good one slip away?
Ugh...should read as  
LBH15 : 1/18/2021 6:37 pm : link
they aren't that good at idenifying OL talent
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