BBI concussion experts. Question about Mahomes concussion

to click on that link, but you fucked that up, no??

Jesus another dupe - Dec 2020

In comment 15126819 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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to click on that link, but you fucked that up, no?? Jesus another dupe - Dec 2020

Why do people claim dupe all the time? What is the other account I'm duping off of? Just listen to the Dr. Take a deep breath and relax. You're being silly.

In comment 15126812 The Truth said:

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In comment 15126791 giantBCP said: Quote: you can see the classic "fencing response" when he extends his arms after he bounces off the ground. At around the 36 second mark - ( New Window ) A different observation on this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw3kjnHg9ds

Fencing response = brain trauma

It's clear as day IMO.

In comment 15126819 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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to click on that link, but you fucked that up, no?? Jesus another dupe - Dec 2020

Relax friend it will get better. linked for you.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 15126822 giantBCP said:

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In comment 15126812 The Truth said: Quote: In comment 15126791 giantBCP said: Quote: you can see the classic "fencing response" when he extends his arms after he bounces off the ground. At around the 36 second mark - ( New Window ) A different observation on this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw3kjnHg9ds Fencing response = brain trauma It's clear as day IMO.

Yea definitely could be, and I could be wrong. I just didn't see and blow to the head that would constitute a concussion. So I did some reading and read that that response also occurs after passing out. I actually witnessed this at a camp when I was younger when kids were playing the choking game. Some would walk like zombies right after coming to.

Replay shows the initial hit was the defender's helmet hitting Mahomes at the very top of his spine, near the neck area and grazing the helmet.

Maybe that was enough to cause it?

In comment 15126840 LBH15 said:

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Replay shows the initial hit was the defender's helmet hitting Mahomes at the very top of his spine, near the neck area and grazing the helmet. Maybe that was enough to cause it?

Yea something weird had to have happened but the way he was tackled was a little dirty in my opinion. Rarely do you see someone tackled by their neck, seemed like he hung on longer then needed. Also, unrelated but related... the diving on layers already tackled Dawkins was famous for... why the hell is that allowed?

a medical professional, but could it be that he had a prior injury (concussion, perhaps undiagnosed) that made him more susceptible to a second concussion. That might explain why he could have suffered a concussion without having absorbed anything that looked like a severe hit.

In comment 15126876 Ron Johnson said:

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a medical professional, but could it be that he had a prior injury (concussion, perhaps undiagnosed) that made him more susceptible to a second concussion. That might explain why he could have suffered a concussion without having absorbed anything that looked like a severe hit.

Yikes, glad I never played football. It's crazy we walk upright, generally seems like poor evolution lol.

Google; "After having one concussion you are more likely to have another — some doctors estimate you increase your risk up to three times. There are two reasons why your risk increases: carelessness and brain chemistry. The first reason is the obvious: After you hit your head, you will be slower to react"

More info on WebMD - ( New Window )

Yes you can get a concussion from a sudden motion of the head, if it is sharp enough. My daughter got a concussion sitting in math class like that once.

In comment 15126814 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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What part about this reads as opinion??... He WAS deprived of oxygen. He WAS choked There was NO brain trauma. Then you post some link about social media making people angry?? WTF

FMiC, LOL. I agree that the tackle did not 'appear' to have caused the typical hit that causes the brain to bounce back and forth inside the cranium. But choking?? Mahomes was not gasping for air or holding his throat. He was stunned and staggered to regain feet, classic evidence of TBI.

It will be telling how the Chiefs and the League handle his RTP protocol, usually five steps, and if he suffers symptoms (e.g., nausea, dizziness, headaches, light sensitivity, etc.) at any one of the progressions, he must return to the earlier/less level of activity.

How does he accomplish this w/i 7 days, I don't know.

In comment 15126928 ColHowPepper said:

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In comment 15126814 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: What part about this reads as opinion??... He WAS deprived of oxygen. He WAS choked There was NO brain trauma. Then you post some link about social media making people angry?? WTF FMiC, LOL. I agree that the tackle did not 'appear' to have caused the typical hit that causes the brain to bounce back and forth inside the cranium. But choking?? Mahomes was not gasping for air or holding his throat. He was stunned and staggered to regain feet, classic evidence of TBI. It will be telling how the Chiefs and the League handle his RTP protocol, usually five steps, and if he suffers symptoms (e.g., nausea, dizziness, headaches, light sensitivity, etc.) at any one of the progressions, he must return to the earlier/less level of activity. How does he accomplish this w/i 7 days, I don't know.

there is no how the Chiefs or league handle this other than the laid out protocol. This is precisely why it is in place. Some players are clear by mid-week, others by the end if the week, and others can take as long as several weeks. But, the protocol is in place to avoid cutting corners.

We hope it is that straightforward. It is often not, as there will be a lot of 'suasion applied from various sources (all the usual suspects) to have him on the field Sunday.

I hope you are right. Do I have high level of confidence the protocol will be applied objectively? No

In comment 15126941 ColHowPepper said:

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We hope it is that straightforward. It is often not, as there will be a lot of 'suasion applied from various sources (all the usual suspects) to have him on the field Sunday. I hope you are right. Do I have high level of confidence the protocol will be applied objectively? No

I believe that has been the case with teams on the sidelines during a game or practice. But, once a player enters the protocol, I don't think that has been the case. Do we have any examples of a player who entered league protocol and was returned early and/or the protocol was skirted or ignored? I don't think so.

On the other hand, there are teams like the Eagles who didn't even bring their player to the tent for observation because he got up on his own immediately, even if noticeably woozy. That is a different story altogether. I believe that needs to be dealt with next.

In comment 15126941 ColHowPepper said:

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We hope it is that straightforward. It is often not, as there will be a lot of 'suasion applied from various sources (all the usual suspects) to have him on the field Sunday. I hope you are right. Do I have high level of confidence the protocol will be applied objectively? No

I agree with this. I already heard today that the way he sprinted into the tunnel indicated he wasn't concussed too badly. I think they will do all they can to get him on the field Sunday. How much pressure is put on an independent voice? I don't know.

Head trauma and CTE is a major problem for the NFL. They might take a hard line stance to make it seem like they care and keep Mahomes out next Sunday.

Medical pros were duped into thinking he was concussed because he was deprived of oxygen and passed out and they didnt take that into their clinical opinion when diagnosing him?


Lmao....OK! Time to change your handle....again.

there are none here. Having had a concussion or even being a doctor does not make one a concussion expert. They are often unique and also a cumulative condition.

To me, it looked like he was hit in the neck and it did not look like whiplash from that. His head slammed into the turf, which is the likely cause. It did not appear he was choked, as there did not seem to be enough time for that. Also, lack of air does not cause a concussion. It could cause other conditions, but concussions are specifically caused by bruising and swelling of the brain.

I have to agree with FatMan. The posts he questioned not only took a very counter and unlikely stance, but did so in a very authoritarian tone. It was not presented as opinion, but nor was it presented as an expert. It just came off as someone making a definitive statement about a situation which they knew not enough about to make that statement.

This concussion is an example of a lack of understanding, still, about the condition and its causes. That includes the league. Simply trying to eliminate helmet to helmet hits is not enough, especially not when considering the long term effects and CTE. So many hits throughout every game contribute to concussions and ultimately CTE, not as the direct cause. OL and DL collide heads every play, over and over. RBs and WRs get hit from the opposite direction while running full speed, which causes the brain to slam against the front of the skull. Players' heads slam into the turf, which causes trauma. And so on. A helmet does not prevent the brain from shifting from a hit. So, while if does lessen the impact of a direct hit, it does nothing to address what is going on inside the skull.

protocol, I don't even know if a person can progress through all within a 6-day period. Any symptoms in a step forward, you have to revert to the previous level of activity.

Matt is right that a given TBI defies precise classification and an individual's ability to recover may be measured in days vs. weeks vs years (not standard, but plenty of documented cases of years of debility, not talking here of CTE). But a recovery measured in days when the RTP is pro football level of risk??

Based on Mahomes' inability to regain his footing/balance, it appeared to me a significant TBI.
Full BBI Required Disclosures: I'm no MD.

In comment 15126945 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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In comment 15126941 ColHowPepper said: Quote: We hope it is that straightforward. It is often not, as there will be a lot of 'suasion applied from various sources (all the usual suspects) to have him on the field Sunday. I hope you are right. Do I have high level of confidence the protocol will be applied objectively? No I agree with this. I already heard today that the way he sprinted into the tunnel indicated he wasn't concussed too badly. I think they will do all they can to get him on the field Sunday. How much pressure is put on an independent voice? I don't know.

I've always been shocked (not really due the compressed nature of the season) that NFL doesn't follow Rugby with mandatory minimum exclusion periods for concussion protocol failures. Basically, if you go into the protocol you're out for a minimum of 19 days. 14 days of complete rest and if by the 14th day there's no further symptoms they go into a 5 stage process (minimum of 24 hrs per stage) where work load is gradually introduced and the player is screened at each stage.

The paper on the rationale for this is extremely detailed and the authors believe it's the minimum amount of time to lower the risk profile back to an acceptable level for additional concussions.

In comment 15126962 ColHowPepper said:

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protocol, I don't even know if a person can progress through all within a 6-day period. Any symptoms in a step forward, you have to revert to the previous level of activity. Matt is right that a given TBI defies precise classification and an individual's ability to recover may be measured in days vs. weeks vs years (not standard, but plenty of documented cases of years of debility, not talking here of CTE). But a recovery measured in days when the RTP is pro football level of risk?? Based on Mahomes' inability to regain his footing/balance, it appeared to me a significant TBI. Full BBI Required Disclosures: I'm no MD.

Excellent clarification. This is a little what I am getting at when stating there is still lack of understanding by many, including the league, and also a lack of caring. The protocol, while better than nothing, really is only interested in a player being "better" enough to step on the field and know where he is and protect himself. It doesn't really take into consideration the player's full health or that there is no total recovery. Concussions tend to have some lingering effects for a long time and that grows with the multiple occurrences of concussions and any brain trauma. This also increased the liklihood of another serious episode.

to Mahomes while being tackled. It did appear to me that his head did hit the ground. It also appeared to me that Wilson had Mahomes wrapped around the left side of Mahomes' neck in the vicinity of his carotid artery. It also apppeared that Wilson's arm got temporarily locked between Pat's helmet and shoulder pads during the tackle. That could have restricted the blood flow to the brain for a moment, rather than a restriction of oxygen. Enough time to cause the wooziness?
Possibly. But it's just speculation, like everything else on this thread.

And the NFL doesn't get the benefit of the doubt here

Stories of him not being concussed but rather choked are going to be met with significant question... that's just the way it is...

If I was a betting man, I'd bet he plays regardless of whatever diagnosis or 'diagnosis' they disclose - meaning they are either going to say he didn't have a concussion and he's good, or he did, and he cleared.

In comment 15126928 ColHowPepper said:

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In comment 15126814 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: What part about this reads as opinion??... He WAS deprived of oxygen. He WAS choked There was NO brain trauma. Then you post some link about social media making people angry?? WTF FMiC, LOL. I agree that the tackle did not 'appear' to have caused the typical hit that causes the brain to bounce back and forth inside the cranium. But choking?? Mahomes was not gasping for air or holding his throat.

Maybe choking is the wrong term, but if you suppress the artery in the neck you pass out in seconds if your heart rate is high. Kids do it, it's called the choking game.

In comment 15127019 GiantsRage2007 said:

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And the NFL doesn't get the benefit of the doubt here Stories of him not being concussed but rather choked are going to be met with significant question... that's just the way it is... If I was a betting man, I'd bet he plays regardless of whatever diagnosis or 'diagnosis' they disclose - meaning they are either going to say he didn't have a concussion and he's good, or he did, and he cleared.

I don't think this outcome is possible. He was placed in concussion protocol and therefore must test out of it.

In comment 15127019 GiantsRage2007 said:

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And the NFL doesn't get the benefit of the doubt here Stories of him not being concussed but rather choked are going to be met with significant question... that's just the way it is... If I was a betting man, I'd bet he plays regardless of whatever diagnosis or 'diagnosis' they disclose - meaning they are either going to say he didn't have a concussion and he's good, or he did, and he cleared.

Yup, I especially agree with the final point. In any event hopefully Pat and Lamar don't have significant injuries but I would be lying if I said I'm not looking forward to an Allen and Mahomes shootout.

If you notice at the very tail end of the tackle, his head is forcibly accelerated to the ground via the defenders arm which also prevented any sort of rebounding effect.

It certainly is a weird play to sustain a concussion given all the other violent trauma seen.

In comment 15127039 Knineteen said:

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If you notice at the very tail end of the tackle, his head is forcibly accelerated to the ground via the defenders arm which also prevented any sort of rebounding effect. It certainly is a weird play to sustain a concussion given all the other violent trauma seen.

Ugh the more I look at the video the more the way Wilson grabs is jersey and alligator twists him annoys me.. On the previous play one of the the LBs, maybe Wilson, was pushing and oliner after the whistle, looked like he was roid raging. Nothing crazy but you could tell he was engraged. Can a football player explain to me if this was vicious? I don't know enough to tell, but to me it seems the shirt grab and pull/twist was viscous but that's just how I see it. Please accept this as my opinion.

Looked it up, it was Wilson raging from the previous play.. link below.
Wilson enraged after the previous play - ( New Window )

know how looking for the opinion of a person who diagnoses things post-mortem would help, but I'm guessing you've been waiting a few decades for a chance to pull out that picture.

were always spot on.

But I know you don't like those types.

In comment 15126956 Matt M. said:

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there are none here. Having had a concussion or even being a doctor does not make one a concussion expert. They are often unique and also a cumulative condition. To me, it looked like he was hit in the neck and it did not look like whiplash from that. His head slammed into the turf, which is the likely cause. It did not appear he was choked, as there did not seem to be enough time for that. Also, lack of air does not cause a concussion. It could cause other conditions, but concussions are specifically caused by bruising and swelling of the brain. I have to agree with FatMan. The posts he questioned not only took a very counter and unlikely stance, but did so in a very authoritarian tone. It was not presented as opinion, but nor was it presented as an expert. It just came off as someone making a definitive statement about a situation which they knew not enough about to make that statement. This concussion is an example of a lack of understanding, still, about the condition and its causes. That includes the league. Simply trying to eliminate helmet to helmet hits is not enough, especially not when considering the long term effects and CTE. So many hits throughout every game contribute to concussions and ultimately CTE, not as the direct cause. OL and DL collide heads every play, over and over. RBs and WRs get hit from the opposite direction while running full speed, which causes the brain to slam against the front of the skull. Players' heads slam into the turf, which causes trauma. And so on. A helmet does not prevent the brain from shifting from a hit. So, while if does lessen the impact of a direct hit, it does nothing to address what is going on inside the skull.

Matt I treat patients in a concussion clinic and I would say this post is pretty spot on, including the first part about "experts".

I'm hoping Mahomes can play. If he stays healthy, he will be one of the great ones.

I know of at least one female with a big crush on him. I'm sure there are lots more who will lose interest in football if he does not play.

In comment 15126824 The Truth said:

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In comment 15126819 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: to click on that link, but you fucked that up, no?? Jesus another dupe - Dec 2020 Relax friend it will get better. linked for you. Link - ( New Window )

While you're googling stuff, look up "gaslighting".

for a player to manipulate the NFL protocols if he wants to play badly enough? For those who know about the protocols, are they all based on player responses, or are there indicators that don't depend on the player telling the truth?

Also, I wouldn't want Quincy on MY case as a patient. As good as Quincy (Klugman) was, he was still a pathologist for a coroner's office !!!

In comment 15127218 LakeGeorgeGiant said:

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In comment 15126824 The Truth said: Quote: In comment 15126819 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: to click on that link, but you fucked that up, no?? Jesus another dupe - Dec 2020 Relax friend it will get better. linked for you. Link - ( New Window ) While you're googling stuff, look up "gaslighting".

Oh be nice George, it's not personal.

In comment 15127312 The Truth said:

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In comment 15127218 LakeGeorgeGiant said: Quote: In comment 15126824 The Truth said: Quote: In comment 15126819 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: to click on that link, but you fucked that up, no?? Jesus another dupe - Dec 2020 Relax friend it will get better. linked for you. Link - ( New Window ) While you're googling stuff, look up "gaslighting". Oh be nice George, it's not personal.

True, you'll do it to anyone.

into the ground, actually looks like it hits his hand/arm. Yes he did hit his arm, hand or ground. But the best angle cuts off the ground so you do not really see the impact. As to being hit in the back of the head by a helmet, meh it was top of the shoulders.

I also did not see "the fencing position" if it occurred it barely happened. I have scene it before and it lasts at least a few seconds to much more if the trauma is severe enough.

But I have to admit that I have never seen an NFL player that woozy. My initial reaction was he got his neck wrenched.

and his neck snaps back.

In comment 15127348 section125 said:

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into the ground, actually looks like it hits his hand/arm. Yes he did hit his arm, hand or ground. But the best angle cuts off the ground so you do not really see the impact. As to being hit in the back of the head by a helmet, meh it was top of the shoulders. I also did not see "the fencing position" if it occurred it barely happened. I have scene it before and it lasts at least a few seconds to much more if the trauma is severe enough. But I have to admit that I have never seen an NFL player that woozy. My initial reaction was he got his neck wrenched.

Yup all sensible points, in line with my own an Jay Glazer's report from the Cheifs themselves, but be careful the buttercups here can't handle a different opinion. A lot of people here want Mahomes to sit so the Bills have a chance.

In comment 15127338 therealmf said:

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In comment 15127312 The Truth said: Quote: In comment 15127218 LakeGeorgeGiant said: Quote: In comment 15126824 The Truth said: Quote: In comment 15126819 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: to click on that link, but you fucked that up, no?? Jesus another dupe - Dec 2020 Relax friend it will get better. linked for you. Link - ( New Window ) While you're googling stuff, look up "gaslighting". Oh be nice George, it's not personal. True, you'll do it to anyone.

Oh, have a blessed evening. Not even sure what you're talking about but I hope you have a nice night friend.

In comment 15127400 The Truth said:

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In comment 15127338 therealmf said: Quote: In comment 15127312 The Truth said: Quote: In comment 15127218 LakeGeorgeGiant said: Quote: In comment 15126824 The Truth said: Quote: In comment 15126819 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: to click on that link, but you fucked that up, no?? Jesus another dupe - Dec 2020 Relax friend it will get better. linked for you. Link - ( New Window ) While you're googling stuff, look up "gaslighting". Oh be nice George, it's not personal. True, you'll do it to anyone. Oh, have a blessed evening. Not even sure what you're talking about but I hope you have a nice night friend.

You do, and it is intentional on your part.

In comment 15127397 The Truth said:

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In comment 15127348 section125 said: Quote: into the ground, actually looks like it hits his hand/arm. Yes he did hit his arm, hand or ground. But the best angle cuts off the ground so you do not really see the impact. As to being hit in the back of the head by a helmet, meh it was top of the shoulders. I also did not see "the fencing position" if it occurred it barely happened. I have scene it before and it lasts at least a few seconds to much more if the trauma is severe enough. But I have to admit that I have never seen an NFL player that woozy. My initial reaction was he got his neck wrenched. Yup all sensible points, in line with my own an Jay Glazer's report from the Cheifs themselves, but be careful the buttercups here can't handle a different opinion. A lot of people here want Mahomes to sit so the Bills have a chance.

Except I think it was a concussion. I just did not see a clear mechanism for it, which does not mean there wasn't one. The neck whip itself could have caused it. That was a pretty violent snap.

In comment 15127405 therealmf said:

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In comment 15127400 The Truth said: Quote: In comment 15127338 therealmf said: Quote: In comment 15127312 The Truth said: Quote: In comment 15127218 LakeGeorgeGiant said: Quote: In comment 15126824 The Truth said: Quote: In comment 15126819 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: to click on that link, but you fucked that up, no?? Jesus another dupe - Dec 2020 Relax friend it will get better. linked for you. Link - ( New Window ) While you're googling stuff, look up "gaslighting". Oh be nice George, it's not personal. True, you'll do it to anyone. Oh, have a blessed evening. Not even sure what you're talking about but I hope you have a nice night friend. You do, and it is intentional on your part.

Care to explain? Sounds like you may have a legitimate issue needing resolution. Please explain what I have done to you, I legitimately have no idea what your talking about but it sounds like I committed an egregious transgression to say the least. Please let me know why you are so upset.

In comment 15127405 therealmf said:

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In comment 15127400 The Truth said: Quote: In comment 15127338 therealmf said: Quote: In comment 15127312 The Truth said: Quote: In comment 15127218 LakeGeorgeGiant said: Quote: In comment 15126824 The Truth said: Quote: In comment 15126819 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: to click on that link, but you fucked that up, no?? Jesus another dupe - Dec 2020 Relax friend it will get better. linked for you. Link - ( New Window ) While you're googling stuff, look up "gaslighting". Oh be nice George, it's not personal. True, you'll do it to anyone. Oh, have a blessed evening. Not even sure what you're talking about but I hope you have a nice night friend. You do, and it is intentional on your part.

Are you upset bc it's my opinion there was no concussion? I'm not saying I'm right, it's just my opinion. I'm truly sorry my opinion doesn't agree with your. There are reports of a pinched nerve now, and plenty of people that have a similar opinion to mine. Sorry if i offended you, link below.
Tweaked nerve - ( New Window )

the fencing response happen as the result of a pinched nerve?

In comment 15127628 Ron Johnson said:

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the fencing response happen as the result of a pinched nerve?

That I don't know of but this is a reflex to certain events, trauma is the main cause but who knows if passing out or cranking a nerve can trigger it. Infants actually have this same reflex, so who knows what can trigger it. I sure don't.

Were likely never going to find out the truth here but I think there is less of a chance Mahomes sits. The Chiefs seem to be running with this tweaked nerve, so as long as Pat passes tests and progresses through the protocol, which he seems to be doing, he will likely play.

In comment 15127700 The Truth said:

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In comment 15127628 Ron Johnson said: Quote: the fencing response happen as the result of a pinched nerve? That I don't know of but this is a reflex to certain events, trauma is the main cause but who knows if passing out or cranking a nerve can trigger it. Infants actually have this same reflex, so who knows what can trigger it. I sure don't. Were likely never going to find out the truth here but I think there is less of a chance Mahomes sits. The Chiefs seem to be running with this tweaked nerve, so as long as Pat passes tests and progresses through the protocol, which he seems to be doing, he will likely play.

running with it and praying he doesn't get earholed

In comment 15127712 Ron Johnson said:

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In comment 15127700 The Truth said: Quote: In comment 15127628 Ron Johnson said: Quote: the fencing response happen as the result of a pinched nerve? That I don't know of but this is a reflex to certain events, trauma is the main cause but who knows if passing out or cranking a nerve can trigger it. Infants actually have this same reflex, so who knows what can trigger it. I sure don't. Were likely never going to find out the truth here but I think there is less of a chance Mahomes sits. The Chiefs seem to be running with this tweaked nerve, so as long as Pat passes tests and progresses through the protocol, which he seems to be doing, he will likely play. running with it and praying he doesn't get earholed

If Pat gets tagged in this game there's gonna be league changing controversy. Also glad to not be a Dr. that has to make the decision to clear him to play. If it were my job, I wouldn't clear bc I have everything to lose if he get tagged even though my gut questions whether or not a concussion occurred but that's why I'm not a Dr.