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3. Leonard Williams, Edge/DT 2020 team: New York Giants | Age entering 2021 season: 27 The past year has been awfully good for Williams, who was traded to the Giants in 2019 and found a home in new coach Joe Judge's defense. His 11.5 sacks were a career high and more than he had amassed in the previous three seasons combined. And now Williams has enormous leverage over the Giants, who decided not to sign him to an extension before finalizing the trade. He spent 2020 as their franchised player. |
And they are really stupid because they didn’t sign him for cheap. Because we all know players always take less money.
Some of you are clueless.
Imagine the reaction from these same people if he signed for the 20 million a year his camp was reportedly looking for last year? They might have stormed the Giants facilities frothing at the mouth.
And they are really stupid because they didn’t sign him for cheap. Because we all know players always take less money.
Some of you are clueless.
Clueless. Sure. We've now gone from "Gettleman and Williams's agent must have had an understanding before the trade, otherwise Gettleman wouldn't have done it" to "well, Williams never wanted to sign a deal with the Giants."
Did I get that right? You are saying that Williams wouldn't sign any offer that Gettleman made? Unless it was his 2021 market rate?
I'm sorry but this is such a stupid response. The Williams trade was horrendous BECAUSE we traded for him without locking him up long term. What's the point of a losing team trading for a soon to be FA? If you franchise him and he's bad then you look dumb for giving up assets for a player that isn't part of the future of the team. If he's great then you're required to pay top dollar to sign him anyway (which you could have done WITHOUT giving up draft capital). As good as LW was this past season, that trade -- without a long term extension at the time it was made -- is still mind bogglingly foolish.
And they are really stupid because they didn’t sign him for cheap. Because we all know players always take less money.
Some of you are clueless.
Agreed. It's comical. The Giants have gone from idiots to even trading for this player and giving up a 3rd rounder, to idiots for not signing this player who wasn't worth giving up a 3rd round pick to a big extension.
Who was the last big time WR FA to land with a different team and make a huge difference?
I'm serious about that question.
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The giants are so stupid for trading for a player and unearthing his potential.
And they are really stupid because they didn’t sign him for cheap. Because we all know players always take less money.
Some of you are clueless.
Clueless. Sure. We've now gone from "Gettleman and Williams's agent must have had an understanding before the trade, otherwise Gettleman wouldn't have done it" to "well, Williams never wanted to sign a deal with the Giants."
Did I get that right? You are saying that Williams wouldn't sign any offer that Gettleman made? Unless it was his 2021 market rate?
Find another pile to extract that pound of flesh. I'm sure you can.
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that the Giants sign one of Golladay, Robinson, or Godwin. This team is in desperate need of playmakers, not only to win games, but so we can accurately evaluate whether DJ is the future at QB before we need to make a decision on his future with the organization and 5th year option.
Who was the last big time WR FA to land with a different team and make a huge difference?
I'm serious about that question.
Antonio Brown in Tampa? Maybe not huge but he's helped them. Diggs in Buffalo? He was a trade but is there any difference?
Are you implying that a FA WR can't help a new team? Plaxico Burress? Terrel Owens in Philly? Alshon Jeffrey in Philly ?
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that the Giants sign one of Golladay, Robinson, or Godwin. This team is in desperate need of playmakers, not only to win games, but so we can accurately evaluate whether DJ is the future at QB before we need to make a decision on his future with the organization and 5th year option.
Who was the last big time WR FA to land with a different team and make a huge difference?
I'm serious about that question.
Don't know about the last one in the league, but Plaxico Burress was a pretty major signing for us (before he shot himself, that is). Don't know if we win in '07 without him.
Also, believe Alshon Jeffery helped the eggles get over the top a few yrs ago. I'm sure there are probably others.
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you guys realize that's how these things go, right?
Imagine the reaction from these same people if he signed for the 20 million a year his camp was reportedly looking for last year? They might have stormed the Giants facilities frothing at the mouth.
I really don't understand it. I don't know what happened when we traded for him - maybe there was a deal on the table and he balked at the last minute, maybe there wasn't. But they definitely negotiated for a while afterward and were apparently far apart. That's business.
Yeah laugh at clowns like you
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The giants are so stupid for trading for a player and unearthing his potential.
And they are really stupid because they didn’t sign him for cheap. Because we all know players always take less money.
Some of you are clueless.
Agreed. It's comical. The Giants have gone from idiots to even trading for this player and giving up a 3rd rounder, to idiots for not signing this player who wasn't worth giving up a 3rd round pick to a big extension.
You're utterly clueless
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In comment 15127706 Josh in the City said:
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that the Giants sign one of Golladay, Robinson, or Godwin. This team is in desperate need of playmakers, not only to win games, but so we can accurately evaluate whether DJ is the future at QB before we need to make a decision on his future with the organization and 5th year option.
Who was the last big time WR FA to land with a different team and make a huge difference?
I'm serious about that question.
Antonio Brown in Tampa? Maybe not huge but he's helped them. Diggs in Buffalo? He was a trade but is there any difference?
Are you implying that a FA WR can't help a new team? Plaxico Burress? Terrel Owens in Philly? Alshon Jeffrey in Philly ?
WHat I'm implying is that WR #1 just don't make it to the open market anymore.
-Burress signed with the Giants in 05
-Owens was last signed as a FA by Dallas in 06 (well aside from some BS 1 yr deals with places like Buffalo and Cincy)
- Brown was a nice add to TB - but he's not a #1
FA WR can certainly help a team win (Brown was a great signing - so was Beasley in BUffalo)...But if you looking to get a #1 WR - FA just isn't going to get it done. You gotta draft or trade to get one.
If the argument is that the team can't assess DJ unless we sign a #1 WR in FA - I'm saying that isn't going to happen b/c they don't often hit the open market.
I would be shocked if one of Galloday, Robinson or Godwin would shake free.
As for Williams' looming contract, they wanted to prevent him from getting free agency where a bidding war could have realistically happened which would make a reasonable contract hard to achieve. I think the Giants are betting on the character of Williams. What I mean by this is, they are hoping he will be attracted to stay with an organization that he feels values him as a player and a person, and an organization committed to winning. With the success the Giants defense had this year even undermanned it may be an attractive situation for Williams, which may influence him to give the Giants that reasonable contract (reasonable to actual football people, not fans). Betting on players is what teams do, it is part of the roster building process.
To wrap up this. I think a certain portion of fans feel that Dave Gettleman is just an idiot who isn't likely to make good decisions. I personally think that is more than a bit foolish.
Btw, Judge has input on roster moves more than likely. He should not be left out of the equation whether a roster move looks to be bad or good.
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In comment 15127695 djm said:
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The giants are so stupid for trading for a player and unearthing his potential.
And they are really stupid because they didn’t sign him for cheap. Because we all know players always take less money.
Some of you are clueless.
Agreed. It's comical. The Giants have gone from idiots to even trading for this player and giving up a 3rd rounder, to idiots for not signing this player who wasn't worth giving up a 3rd round pick to a big extension.
You're utterly clueless
Please explain to me why I am clueless.
What player would the Giants have taken with that pick?
This is hardly the time to shit on the Giants. We have plenty of those. This isn't one of them.
It was a dice roll, but a 3rd round pick isn't a huge investment for a dice roll. The way some of you continue to harp on this one would think that the investment was much greater.
He will get his contract or he will be tagged.
It was a dice roll, but a 3rd round pick isn't a huge investment for a dice roll. The way some of you continue to harp on this one would think that the investment was much greater.
He will get his contract or he will be tagged.
Exactly. Although some who ragged the trade have inevitably moved on to ragging the Giants not signing him to a long term deal.
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Given up (3rd round supp) for Sam Beal was 1000% worse. That one hurt.
What player would the Giants have taken with that pick?
AJ Brown and DK Metcalf went in Round 2 of 2019, for instance. Not sure what slot we gave up, but Metcalf was the last pick of the round. Dionte Johnson and Terry McLaurin were picked in Round 2.
The Giants were not the only team looking to pick up LW, I believe the Cowboys were one of the other suitors and that was when DG added the 5th rounder this year.
The guy made himself a few million more with his play this year.
Side note, if Tomlinson is not even ranked, that is good for the Giants if they want to re-sign him. Maybe he drops to the $5-6 mill per instead of $10-$12 range. Or maybe it means that it is time to look for a better NT?
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Given up (3rd round supp) for Sam Beal was 1000% worse. That one hurt.
What player would the Giants have taken with that pick?
Anyone with a pulse would be better.
Is that where we are now, if you can’t somehow name the player the Giants would have picked, you can’t criticize? Fucking ridiculous.
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In comment 15127767 Carl in CT said:
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Given up (3rd round supp) for Sam Beal was 1000% worse. That one hurt.
What player would the Giants have taken with that pick?
AJ Brown and DK Metcalf went in Round 2 of 2019, for instance. Not sure what slot we gave up, but Metcalf was the last pick of the round. Dionte Johnson and Terry McLaurin were picked in Round 2.
Sorry- typo - Johnson and McLaurin were picked in Round "3"
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In comment 15127767 Carl in CT said:
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Given up (3rd round supp) for Sam Beal was 1000% worse. That one hurt.
What player would the Giants have taken with that pick?
AJ Brown and DK Metcalf went in Round 2 of 2019, for instance. Not sure what slot we gave up, but Metcalf was the last pick of the round. Dionte Johnson and Terry McLaurin were picked in Round 2.
Giants gave up their 3rd for Beal. How do you get players who were drafted in the 2nd round with a 3rd round pick?
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In comment 15127767 Carl in CT said:
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Given up (3rd round supp) for Sam Beal was 1000% worse. That one hurt.
What player would the Giants have taken with that pick?
AJ Brown and DK Metcalf went in Round 2 of 2019, for instance. Not sure what slot we gave up, but Metcalf was the last pick of the round. Dionte Johnson and Terry McLaurin were picked in Round 2.
Ok, the point is, that post was already assuming the player we gave up for Beal was going to be a significant success.
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In comment 15127767 Carl in CT said:
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Given up (3rd round supp) for Sam Beal was 1000% worse. That one hurt.
What player would the Giants have taken with that pick?
Anyone with a pulse would be better.
Is that where we are now, if you can’t somehow name the player the Giants would have picked, you can’t criticize? Fucking ridiculous.
Significantly better would be the goal. The logic assuming the missed player was going to be significantly better is an unknown.
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In comment 15127774 crick n NC said:
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In comment 15127767 Carl in CT said:
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Given up (3rd round supp) for Sam Beal was 1000% worse. That one hurt.
What player would the Giants have taken with that pick?
AJ Brown and DK Metcalf went in Round 2 of 2019, for instance. Not sure what slot we gave up, but Metcalf was the last pick of the round. Dionte Johnson and Terry McLaurin were picked in Round 2.
Giants gave up their 3rd for Beal. How do you get players who were drafted in the 2nd round with a 3rd round pick?
I guess I looked and saw we had no 2nd round selection that year and picked Ximines in the 3rd. Can't recall how that shook out but just then consider Johnson and McLaurin in the 3rd.
You would be letting Tomlinson and Williams go?
Leverage was given up, they missed out on just bidding for him back in Spring of 2020, and now it has reached on another level with his career year.
They misread the situation and created the very thing they gave up drafts picks to avoid.
Significantly better would be the goal. The logic assuming the missed player was going to be significantly better is an unknown.
It wasn't just that DG used a supplemental, it's that he used a supplemental on an oft-injured player. You guys crack me up - DG should be praised for getting things right, but you can't criticize him when things go wrong, because, and I quote, "assuming the missed player was going to be significantly better is an unknown."
I repeat, fucking ridiculous.
Bottom line: we're here now - and on the Giants, LW is/had been an elite player...pay him his money.
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Significantly better would be the goal. The logic assuming the missed player was going to be significantly better is an unknown.
It wasn't just that DG used a supplemental, it's that he used a supplemental on an oft-injured player. You guys crack me up - DG should be praised for getting things right, but you can't criticize him when things go wrong, because, and I quote, "assuming the missed player was going to be significantly better is an unknown."
I repeat, fucking ridiculous.
You're missing the point. Criticize it, it looks like a miss. I am criticizing the logic assuming the player selected in Beal's place was going to be better. The poster said the Beal miss hurt, well we don't know who the player was to be selected in his place to prove Beal Hurt the team.
What is unreasonable about my stance?
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of the Williams trade at the time, but if you're still ragging on that trade I think you either have an axe to grind or you are unable to admit when you're wrong.
It was a dice roll, but a 3rd round pick isn't a huge investment for a dice roll. The way some of you continue to harp on this one would think that the investment was much greater.
He will get his contract or he will be tagged.
Exactly. Although some who ragged the trade have inevitably moved on to ragging the Giants not signing him to a long term deal.
The DG haters are really good at moving the goalposts regarding DG
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In comment 15127719 Dnew15 said:
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In comment 15127706 Josh in the City said:
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that the Giants sign one of Golladay, Robinson, or Godwin. This team is in desperate need of playmakers, not only to win games, but so we can accurately evaluate whether DJ is the future at QB before we need to make a decision on his future with the organization and 5th year option.
Who was the last big time WR FA to land with a different team and make a huge difference?
I'm serious about that question.
Antonio Brown in Tampa? Maybe not huge but he's helped them. Diggs in Buffalo? He was a trade but is there any difference?
Are you implying that a FA WR can't help a new team? Plaxico Burress? Terrel Owens in Philly? Alshon Jeffrey in Philly ?
WHat I'm implying is that WR #1 just don't make it to the open market anymore.
-Burress signed with the Giants in 05
-Owens was last signed as a FA by Dallas in 06 (well aside from some BS 1 yr deals with places like Buffalo and Cincy)
- Brown was a nice add to TB - but he's not a #1
FA WR can certainly help a team win (Brown was a great signing - so was Beasley in BUffalo)...But if you looking to get a #1 WR - FA just isn't going to get it done. You gotta draft or trade to get one.
If the argument is that the team can't assess DJ unless we sign a #1 WR in FA - I'm saying that isn't going to happen b/c they don't often hit the open market.
I would be shocked if one of Galloday, Robinson or Godwin would shake free.
In the post where you are saying thet #1 WR don't make it to the open market and name that Robinson is one of them.. you neglect that he was a FA himself just 3 years ago.. by then he was already a #1 WR..
Not sure I agree with your first sentence - but it's not the worst of ideas - but I think you nailed it with the second sentence. This team needs to figure out who DJ is.
While I understand the excellent year DW had, it's a helluva more critical to buy support for DJ than to keep Williams. Williams is replaceable. And that's largely because I trust Graham's scheme and ability to move pieces around the defensive chess board.
Leverage was given up, they missed out on just bidding for him back in Spring of 2020, and now it has reached on another level with his career year.
They misread the situation and created the very thing they gave up drafts picks to avoid.
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And now Williams has enormous leverage over the Giants, who decided not to sign him to an extension before finalizing the trade.
+1 people that don't understand this are naive.. No one in the NFL was wiling to give up much for him.. Giants outbid everyone to get him.. meaning no one else thought LW was worth much add to it that he ended that season with 1/2 a sack.. no one in the world would've paid him 16M for 2020 if the Giants hadn't traded for him.. and the Giants only did that to save face.. he rewarded them with the best year of his life by a huge mile.. and now we will give him 5 yr $100M..
He had one good year 2015 ...
Let's not pretend he was a bonda fide super star #1 receiver when Jacksonville let him go.
I think he had an elite season, but it's clearly his first one.
You're missing the point. Criticize it, it looks like a miss. I am criticizing the logic assuming the player selected in Beal's place was going to be better. The poster said the Beal miss hurt, well we don't know who the player was to be selected in his place to prove Beal Hurt the team.
What is unreasonable about my stance?
Sure, there are unknowns in any draft, but here's the thing, Beal's injury history wasn't an unknown. On top of that, there were numerous red flags about his practice habits, his effort in class.
As others have pointed out, there were many better choices out there, from McLaurin, to Winovich, to Nate Davis (and I'm not even looking at RB's David Montgomery and Devin Singletary).
DG reached for a guy he thought could help right away, despite Beal's history of not being reliable. How that isn't criticism-worthy is what is unreasonable.
Bottom line: we're here now - and on the Giants, LW is/had been an elite player...pay him his money.
Recall Dallas was the only other team reported to have interest in Williams back in 2019. But even they moved on and signed I believe Michael Bennett well before the Giants did the deal with the Jets at the deadline.
Williams could easily have made it to free agency after that season, particularly since his 2019 year wasn't anything special.
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You're missing the point. Criticize it, it looks like a miss. I am criticizing the logic assuming the player selected in Beal's place was going to be better. The poster said the Beal miss hurt, well we don't know who the player was to be selected in his place to prove Beal Hurt the team.
What is unreasonable about my stance?
Sure, there are unknowns in any draft, but here's the thing, Beal's injury history wasn't an unknown. On top of that, there were numerous red flags about his practice habits, his effort in class.
As others have pointed out, there were many better choices out there, from McLaurin, to Winovich, to Nate Davis (and I'm not even looking at RB's David Montgomery and Devin Singletary).
DG reached for a guy he thought could help right away, despite Beal's history of not being reliable. How that isn't criticism-worthy is what is unreasonable.
Beal was a clear cut miss and needs to go in that column.
There are two columns though misses and hits, just wish we had more in the right one.
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You're missing the point. Criticize it, it looks like a miss. I am criticizing the logic assuming the player selected in Beal's place was going to be better. The poster said the Beal miss hurt, well we don't know who the player was to be selected in his place to prove Beal Hurt the team.
What is unreasonable about my stance?
Sure, there are unknowns in any draft, but here's the thing, Beal's injury history wasn't an unknown. On top of that, there were numerous red flags about his practice habits, his effort in class.
As others have pointed out, there were many better choices out there, from McLaurin, to Winovich, to Nate Davis (and I'm not even looking at RB's David Montgomery and Devin Singletary).
DG reached for a guy he thought could help right away, despite Beal's history of not being reliable. How that isn't criticism-worthy is what is unreasonable.
My stance has zero to do with defending Gettleman. A miss is a miss. But, you can't just assume the player taken in place was going to be any better, not to mention better that it hurts the team by not having that player instead of Beal. I would say a miss on a single third round pick rarely hurts a team. Misses on those picks over time, yes.
You seem so caught up in making sure Gettleman gets his criticism that you are unable to discern other points.
I think he had an elite season, but it's clearly his first one.
I agree, nothing is certain right now. I think replicating 2020 will probably be hard, but if they do resign him they have to upgrade the outside pass rush to reinforce their investment in LW. That doesn't mean spending the #11 pick on it, but a day 2 asset should be prioritized coupled with one or 2 savvy vet signings.
So we offered $20m last year and he turned it down, and is now looking for that again? Interesting.
The offer was reportedly south of $15M, and some said it was $12-13M ballpark. LW bet on himself and won.
That phase is gone and in the past, now it's time to put a current value on LW and get a deal done or move him out.
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to the roster they trade for and franchise a specific target just so they don't have to pay out free agent type dollars. Not realizing the trade itself created the toughest bidder they probably were ever going to have deal with.
Leverage was given up, they missed out on just bidding for him back in Spring of 2020, and now it has reached on another level with his career year.
They misread the situation and created the very thing they gave up drafts picks to avoid.
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And now Williams has enormous leverage over the Giants, who decided not to sign him to an extension before finalizing the trade.
+1 people that don't understand this are naive.. No one in the NFL was wiling to give up much for him.. Giants outbid everyone to get him.. meaning no one else thought LW was worth much add to it that he ended that season with 1/2 a sack.. no one in the world would've paid him 16M for 2020 if the Giants hadn't traded for him.. and the Giants only did that to save face.. he rewarded them with the best year of his life by a huge mile.. and now we will give him 5 yr $100M..
You are just wrong. We know the Cowboys were one of a couple teams that offered a #3 for LW. I think the Chiefs were another(SWAG).
That's a bit of revisionistic history. Last year everyone bitched that he shouldn't be signed until he proved himself. That the Franchise Tag was the way to go to see if he was legit or not.
Now we are claiming that because he did prove himself DG screwed it up by not signing him last year. Here's the funny thing, people that are bitching that losing a 3rd draft pick and a 4th or 5th the next year, also bitch that DG shouldn't be making those picks. I just find it really odd that giving away mid-round picks for a guy who was our best defensive player last year is somehow proof that DG sucks.
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I'm not sure LW is an "elite player" yet.
I think he had an elite season, but it's clearly his first one.
I agree, nothing is certain right now. I think replicating 2020 will probably be hard, but if they do resign him they have to upgrade the outside pass rush to reinforce their investment in LW. That doesn't mean spending the #11 pick on it, but a day 2 asset should be prioritized coupled with one or 2 savvy vet signings.
I think it's GM law that you never pay for a guy going into FA after a career year.
I hear you on that - this certainly appears to be the case here on the surface.
However - LW seems to me a guy that is a gamechanger on the Giants. All reports are that the guy works hard, is beloved as a teammate and loves playing for the NYG.
I don't have the time to go back and look through this - but the Giants defense changed significantly after LW came on board. I'll bet the Giants have increased in every significant category since he came on board - I know it's true against the run. He instantly made that defensive front significantly better.
Without him - they stunk - and that was with a lot of the same guys. Go back and look.
I get the naysayers - I get the "you don't overspend on IDL" ... there's a lot of evidence out there to prove me wrong.
BUT I just feel like there's some players that mean more to an organization - and since coming onboard with the Giants - he's turned into one of those guys for me.
Lord Almighty - this looks like I'm the president of the LW fanclub!
Incorrect
Question it, go nuts. But most of the comments here are making it seem like we could force LW to sign a lower offer.
I'm well past caring about the 3rd and 5th - we likely got our money's worth on the trade for this season alone, but if you want to harp on how much we gave up than go for it.
In the end I wish he was signed already but its a business and he's trying to get a good deal, it happens.
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In comment 15127815 chick310 said:
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to the roster they trade for and franchise a specific target just so they don't have to pay out free agent type dollars. Not realizing the trade itself created the toughest bidder they probably were ever going to have deal with.
Leverage was given up, they missed out on just bidding for him back in Spring of 2020, and now it has reached on another level with his career year.
They misread the situation and created the very thing they gave up drafts picks to avoid.
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And now Williams has enormous leverage over the Giants, who decided not to sign him to an extension before finalizing the trade.
+1 people that don't understand this are naive.. No one in the NFL was wiling to give up much for him.. Giants outbid everyone to get him.. meaning no one else thought LW was worth much add to it that he ended that season with 1/2 a sack.. no one in the world would've paid him 16M for 2020 if the Giants hadn't traded for him.. and the Giants only did that to save face.. he rewarded them with the best year of his life by a huge mile.. and now we will give him 5 yr $100M..
You are just wrong. We know the Cowboys were one of a couple teams that offered a #3 for LW. I think the Chiefs were another(SWAG).
You are wrong all they offered at best was a late 3rd.. none of them offered a better trade than us.. which was a 3rd.. for a good DL playoff teams are willing to offer much more..
So many people went bonkers and dug in about the trade being a "fireable offense" that they still don't have a fucking clue how to put the pitchfork back in the garage.
Maybe it is still sticking in Gettleman, or maybe they jabbed it up their rectum and can't dislodge it.
But so many posters gave passionate posts about how the trade was one of the worst in NFL history and how Gettleman was a complete buffoon for doing it that they just can't backtrack now.
Sad, but unfortunately true.
You are wrong all they offered at best was a late 3rd.. none of them offered a better trade than us.. which was a 3rd.. for a good DL playoff teams are willing to offer much more..
Oh ok, they offered a #3 but it wasn't like our #3. That kind of logic is laughable. Sounds more like "yeah but, but, but...."
Not many in season trades net much more than a 3 unless a QB. Most a 5, it seems.
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You are wrong all they offered at best was a late 3rd.. none of them offered a better trade than us.. which was a 3rd.. for a good DL playoff teams are willing to offer much more..
Oh ok, they offered a #3 but it wasn't like our #3. That kind of logic is laughable. Sounds more like "yeah but, but, but...."
Not many in season trades net much more than a 3 unless a QB. Most a 5, it seems.
How is that laughable? Jets took the best offer meaning no one else had a better offer than us.. There were playoff teams who needed DL help and they didn't offer more than we did.. That shows you what other teams valued LW at.. not some know it all on BBI..
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You are wrong all they offered at best was a late 3rd.. none of them offered a better trade than us.. which was a 3rd.. for a good DL playoff teams are willing to offer much more..
Oh ok, they offered a #3 but it wasn't like our #3. That kind of logic is laughable. Sounds more like "yeah but, but, but...."
Not many in season trades net much more than a 3 unless a QB. Most a 5, it seems.
Just to get back to this. Dallas is not reported to have given an offer for Williams, nor any other team for that matter.
Further, Dallas withdrew their interest a week earlier and traded for Michael Bennett for a 6th or 7th rd pick. The Giants were not competing in the end with Dallas for Leonard Williams.
So many people went bonkers and dug in about the trade being a "fireable offense" that they still don't have a fucking clue how to put the pitchfork back in the garage.
Maybe it is still sticking in Gettleman, or maybe they jabbed it up their rectum and can't dislodge it.
But so many posters gave passionate posts about how the trade was one of the worst in NFL history and how Gettleman was a complete buffoon for doing it that they just can't backtrack now.
Sad, but unfortunately true.
That being said, they identified a player that they thought would be good, and secured him. Not sure if they didn't think they'd be able to sign him in the offseason (which is probably true considering he got franchised), so that is the only potential defense of the trade, in my eyes.
As for this year, I think I'd franchise him again if they can't get a deal done to their liking. Make him prove it again. If he puts up another year like this one, you shower the man with money.
Separately, the kid put a fantastic season up and now it's on to the next decision tree. He is recognizing his potential and the FOOTBALL aspect of the trade looks terrific. Now, where does DG go from here with LW is a big key to this offseason. And, they need to get it done so they're able to have more focus on the Jones situation. They need to see where he's at a year from now so they're prepared to pick up his fifth year option or start looking for a replacement.
Separately, the kid put a fantastic season up and now it's on to the next decision tree. He is recognizing his potential and the FOOTBALL aspect of the trade looks terrific. Now, where does DG go from here with LW is a big key to this offseason. And, they need to get it done so they're able to have more focus on the Jones situation. They need to see where he's at a year from now so they're prepared to pick up his fifth year option or start looking for a replacement.
Perfectly put JonC.
I agree, at the same time it feels damned good they scored with LW. But, they've got to improve the batting average, for certain.
Go find another guy instead.
so you're comparing a deadline deal for a pending free agent....to an offseason deal for a guy under team control for 3 years? That's not comparable at all.
He's priority #1, IMO.
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Even if you feel the trade was not a great one with regards to the timing, the draft picks sent out, the failure to sign an extension a year ago ... and I agree DG gets a poor grade on the execution aspect of bringing LW in here.
Separately, the kid put a fantastic season up and now it's on to the next decision tree. He is recognizing his potential and the FOOTBALL aspect of the trade looks terrific. Now, where does DG go from here with LW is a big key to this offseason. And, they need to get it done so they're able to have more focus on the Jones situation. They need to see where he's at a year from now so they're prepared to pick up his fifth year option or start looking for a replacement.
Perfectly put JonC.
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In comment 15127909 chuckydee9 said:
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You are wrong all they offered at best was a late 3rd.. none of them offered a better trade than us.. which was a 3rd.. for a good DL playoff teams are willing to offer much more..
Oh ok, they offered a #3 but it wasn't like our #3. That kind of logic is laughable. Sounds more like "yeah but, but, but...."
Not many in season trades net much more than a 3 unless a QB. Most a 5, it seems.
Just to get back to this. Dallas is not reported to have given an offer for Williams, nor any other team for that matter.
Further, Dallas withdrew their interest a week earlier and traded for Michael Bennett for a 6th or 7th rd pick. The Giants were not competing in the end with Dallas for Leonard Williams.
Yes it was reported. It didn't come to me in a dream...
So many people went bonkers and dug in about the trade being a "fireable offense" that they still don't have a fucking clue how to put the pitchfork back in the garage.
Maybe it is still sticking in Gettleman, or maybe they jabbed it up their rectum and can't dislodge it.
But so many posters gave passionate posts about how the trade was one of the worst in NFL history and how Gettleman was a complete buffoon for doing it that they just can't backtrack now.
Sad, but unfortunately true.
Well said. The goalposts continue to move. When we do sign him the same characters will be begging to cut him for cap space.
Wasn't he playing for a "big contract" in '19? Before and after the trade?
Could it be that maybe, just maybe, he now has a good coaching staff and that he's maturing (he reached out to Richard Seymour last offseason for help training) and he's finally reaching the potential that made him the 6th overall pick?
Is that really so hard to believe?
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Or he is playing for a big contract, had a career year and will go back to what he was for the Jets and his first half season- good player but not worthy of being paid as a top 3 player at his position.
Wasn't he playing for a "big contract" in '19? Before and after the trade?
Could it be that maybe, just maybe, he now has a good coaching staff and that he's maturing (he reached out to Richard Seymour last offseason for help training) and he's finally reaching the potential that made him the 6th overall pick?
Is that really so hard to believe?
I hope you are correct and. He plays at this level for the next 5 years..
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traded a 3rd for JPP, and that’s worked out for both parties. He was signed already so not exactly apples to apple but bad teams trade picks for players and this is a fairly comparable example.
so you're comparing a deadline deal for a pending free agent....to an offseason deal for a guy under team control for 3 years? That's not comparable at all.
I am not, hence “not exactly apples to apples”. When you take into account JPPs injury history and amount owed with LWs age and upside, it’s a lot closer than you think. If you don’t agree that’s fine
Just to get back to this. Dallas is not reported to have given an offer for Williams, nor any other team for that matter.
Further, Dallas withdrew their interest a week earlier and traded for Michael Bennett for a 6th or 7th rd pick. The Giants were not competing in the end with Dallas for Leonard Williams.
Yes it was reported. It didn't come to me in a dream...
Section 125 I am not trying to be argumentative, but that just isn't the case. Dallas lost interest with Williams and did the deal with the Patriots a week earlier for Bennett.
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Or he is playing for a big contract, had a career year and will go back to what he was for the Jets and his first half season- good player but not worthy of being paid as a top 3 player at his position.
Wasn't he playing for a "big contract" in '19? Before and after the trade?
Could it be that maybe, just maybe, he now has a good coaching staff and that he's maturing (he reached out to Richard Seymour last offseason for help training) and he's finally reaching the potential that made him the 6th overall pick?
Is that really so hard to believe?
Dr. D It is exactly what we all would like to believe. But the Giants are still left in the same situation even if they do believe it, and that is how much is Williams worth and do they want to pay it based on their other roster concerns.
As for the why he didn't sign, no clue.
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In comment 15128014 UConn4523 said:
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traded a 3rd for JPP, and that’s worked out for both parties. He was signed already so not exactly apples to apple but bad teams trade picks for players and this is a fairly comparable example.
so you're comparing a deadline deal for a pending free agent....to an offseason deal for a guy under team control for 3 years? That's not comparable at all.
I am not, hence “not exactly apples to apples”. When you take into account JPPs injury history and amount owed with LWs age and upside, it’s a lot closer than you think. If you don’t agree that’s fine
you called it a "fairly comparable example". It's not.
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traded a 3rd for JPP, and that’s worked out for both parties. He was signed already so not exactly apples to apple but bad teams trade picks for players and this is a fairly comparable example.
He was signed already-makes a big difference. I don't know that there are really any legitimate complaints with the trade. Trades occur all the time.
if there are other examples of losing teams trading picks at the deadline for pending free agents, I'd love to hear them. Kenyan Drake is sorta similar, but it was only for a sixth rounder.
Now, we give up a 3 and 5 and get a 25 year old with almost no injury history and lots of upside, but in a contract year (this decreases his price). And the 3 years before the trade he had a few less sacks than JPP did in his 3 years prior to the trade.
I don't think the two are far off despite the scenarios being different.
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In comment 15127985 JonC said:
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Even if you feel the trade was not a great one with regards to the timing, the draft picks sent out, the failure to sign an extension a year ago ... and I agree DG gets a poor grade on the execution aspect of bringing LW in here.
Separately, the kid put a fantastic season up and now it's on to the next decision tree. He is recognizing his potential and the FOOTBALL aspect of the trade looks terrific. Now, where does DG go from here with LW is a big key to this offseason. And, they need to get it done so they're able to have more focus on the Jones situation. They need to see where he's at a year from now so they're prepared to pick up his fifth year option or start looking for a replacement.
Perfectly put JonC.
Or he is playing for a big contract, had a career year and will go back to what he was for the Jets and his first half season- good player but not worthy of being paid as a top 3 player at his position.
I don't recall hearing anything about him being lazy or disinterested as a player. And as we've all seen, coaching makes a huge difference. Graham and staff have unlocked not only LWs but Peppers and others too.
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In comment 15127991 Victor in CT said:
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In comment 15127985 JonC said:
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Even if you feel the trade was not a great one with regards to the timing, the draft picks sent out, the failure to sign an extension a year ago ... and I agree DG gets a poor grade on the execution aspect of bringing LW in here.
Separately, the kid put a fantastic season up and now it's on to the next decision tree. He is recognizing his potential and the FOOTBALL aspect of the trade looks terrific. Now, where does DG go from here with LW is a big key to this offseason. And, they need to get it done so they're able to have more focus on the Jones situation. They need to see where he's at a year from now so they're prepared to pick up his fifth year option or start looking for a replacement.
Perfectly put JonC.
Or he is playing for a big contract, had a career year and will go back to what he was for the Jets and his first half season- good player but not worthy of being paid as a top 3 player at his position.
I don't recall hearing anything about him being lazy or disinterested as a player. And as we've all seen, coaching makes a huge difference. Graham and staff have unlocked not only LWs but Peppers and others too.
DG traded for an impending free agent and many fans kept saying that DG must have already had a handshake agreement in place with LW's representation prior to FA. Obviously, that wasn't the case.
These things tend to go this way when a team is reactive.
Just another Giants fan, here . But I cannot fathom and will not accept the Giants losing him. That said , I am totally confident Gettleman will screw this up .
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situation really boils down to one main thing.
So many people went bonkers and dug in about the trade being a "fireable offense" that they still don't have a fucking clue how to put the pitchfork back in the garage.
Maybe it is still sticking in Gettleman, or maybe they jabbed it up their rectum and can't dislodge it.
But so many posters gave passionate posts about how the trade was one of the worst in NFL history and how Gettleman was a complete buffoon for doing it that they just can't backtrack now.
Sad, but unfortunately true.
Well said. The goalposts continue to move. When we do sign him the same characters will be begging to cut him for cap space.
Let me ask something...
With a confirmed reduced cap by close to $20M, and knowing what you know on both sides of the ball, what is more important? Using significant cap dollars for LW or finding more infantry for DJ, who plays the most important position in the sport?
Because we aren't awash in cap space, despite what former Enron accountant djm says...
It was a dice roll, but a 3rd round pick isn't a huge investment for a dice roll. The way some of you continue to harp on this one would think that the investment was much greater.
He will get his contract or he will be tagged.
Do you have any idea what the repeat tag value is for LW? With a cap that's likely to decrease for 2021?
Tagging LW a second time would be an extremely expensive move, and it would essentially equate to giving LW almost as much guaranteed money over two seasons as they would have had to give him on a long-term deal even if they had met his demands last offseason.
Tagging him again is very unlikely, and if they do it, it will represent a very significant drag on their ability to make any other notable moves this offseason.
If they can't agree on a multi-year contract before FA opens this year, the better move is probably to let LW test the market, hope to have a chance to match any offers, and take the comp pick (likely a 3rd rounder, which would basically recoup the trade value given up) if he signs elsewhere. Tagging him a second time would be a much more challenging scenario financially, and it also introduces a real risk of a disgruntled star player on a young team that will be looking to LW as a leadership influence.
Just another Giants fan, here . But I cannot fathom and will not accept the Giants losing him. That said , I am totally confident Gettleman will screw this up .
Mara and Gettleman intimated a possible different higher priority. And that's to find more playmakers for the offense.
Clueless. Sure. We've now gone from "Gettleman and Williams's agent must have had an understanding before the trade, otherwise Gettleman wouldn't have done it"
Ha, I completely forgot that so many people were insisting that we had such an understanding, that it was the only way such a trade would make sense.
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In comment 15127710 KDavies said:
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In comment 15127695 djm said:
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The giants are so stupid for trading for a player and unearthing his potential.
And they are really stupid because they didn’t sign him for cheap. Because we all know players always take less money.
Some of you are clueless.
Agreed. It's comical. The Giants have gone from idiots to even trading for this player and giving up a 3rd rounder, to idiots for not signing this player who wasn't worth giving up a 3rd round pick to a big extension.
You're utterly clueless
Please explain to me why I am clueless.
He a humorless sort who can't comprehend that your post was mocking positions, not asserting them.
Weird. Maybe should be titled "most expensive AAV FA available.
Weird. Maybe should be titled "most expensive AAV FA available.
Yeah, I mentioned above that ranking an oft injured 33 year-old Player as a #2is truly a joke, imv
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But is a QB with questionable arm skill and coming off a brutal injury along with a 33 year old LT with an injury history really being ranked higher than a 27 year old DE/DT (they have him listed as an edge...he isnt EDGE) who is elite at stopping the run, very good in pass rush, and with NO injury history?
Weird. Maybe should be titled "most expensive AAV FA available.
Yeah, I mentioned above that ranking an oft injured 33 year-old Player as a #2is truly a joke, imv
TW was PFF First Team All Pro this year. ;)
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In comment 15128244 chopperhatch said:
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But is a QB with questionable arm skill and coming off a brutal injury along with a 33 year old LT with an injury history really being ranked higher than a 27 year old DE/DT (they have him listed as an edge...he isnt EDGE) who is elite at stopping the run, very good in pass rush, and with NO injury history?
Weird. Maybe should be titled "most expensive AAV FA available.
Yeah, I mentioned above that ranking an oft injured 33 year-old Player as a #2is truly a joke, imv
TW was PFF First Team All Pro this year. ;)
I guess...althpugh there was really no comp for him. Lots of top guys hurt (Bak, Smith, Lewan) or got too old (Whitworth, Peters Castonzo). Either way, I would be more inclined to pay LW that TW.
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Everyone is an idiot that questions a GM that trades draft picks for a player that will be a UFA in a couple months, then doesn't get a contract done before free agency, then uses the franchise tag on the player so that all $16+ million goes against the cap this past year, and then still doesn't get a long term deal done before the season starts, and now will have to sign the guy to considerably more than he would have taken before having a career season? And there's still no guarantee he will even sign with the Giants?
That's a bit of revisionistic history. Last year everyone bitched that he shouldn't be signed until he proved himself. That the Franchise Tag was the way to go to see if he was legit or not.
Now we are claiming that because he did prove himself DG screwed it up by not signing him last year. Here's the funny thing, people that are bitching that losing a 3rd draft pick and a 4th or 5th the next year, also bitch that DG shouldn't be making those picks. I just find it really odd that giving away mid-round picks for a guy who was our best defensive player last year is somehow proof that DG sucks.
I don't think it's fair to say that "everyone" said that. I know I was against the use of the tag, and I was not alone. I remember arguing with Eric in Li about it a number of times last year - if memory serves, he was the one who was most adamantly in favor of the tag right from the moment the trade happened. My POV then was that it was silly to trade for an impending FA simply for the right to use the tag, and that LW was the type of player that you might pursue aggressively in free agency, but not one (at that time) who was worth giving up draft picks for without a contract in place.
I can admit that I was wrong about my view of LW's on-field value; the way he played this season places him in that upper echelon of defensive linemen across the league. But I was never in favor of the tag last offseason because my personal view was that the only way that it made sense for a non-contending team to trade for an impending FA was if they had assurances that he was going to sign a multi-year deal, and that he was willing to sign for slightly below market rate to stay in the area (and if you go back to the articles written around the time of the trade, as well as some well-informed posts here on BBI, there was quite a bit of chatter about LW preferring to stay in the area, which supposedly gave the Giants a leg up in re-signing him).
Using the tag was not only a pretty strong indicator that there was never any sort of deal in place at the time of the trade or thereafter, and it meant that there was no bargain to be had for this year - we were going to be paying top dollar (which the FT basically is, by definition) for a single season which left us with two possibilities: either he would continue at the level of production he had in the previous few seasons, in which case the trade itself AND the money spent this season would be wasteful, or he would further increase his value and leverage over what he already had last offseason. And even in a "prove it" scenario, we actually were still paying LW the type of money in 2020 that corresponds to already having proven it.
I'm thrilled with the way LW played this year and I'm glad to have been wrong about his value as a player, but I still don't agree with the way the whole scenario has played out. Regardless, it's water under the bridge now, and I hope we are able to sign him to a multi-year deal before he hits FA this offseason, because I think he's going to get big money even in a depressed market.
The only benefit of the tag, and I will admit that I was dismissive of it last year, is that if we don't end up re-signing LW, we're likely to recoup some of the trade value via comp pick. Given that, along with LW's production this season, we're in a better position now than I expected a year ago. As long as we don't tag LW again this offseason, there's a bright side to however this plays out.
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In comment 15127860 sb from NYT Forum said:
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Everyone is an idiot that questions a GM that trades draft picks for a player that will be a UFA in a couple months, then doesn't get a contract done before free agency, then uses the franchise tag on the player so that all $16+ million goes against the cap this past year, and then still doesn't get a long term deal done before the season starts, and now will have to sign the guy to considerably more than he would have taken before having a career season? And there's still no guarantee he will even sign with the Giants?
That's a bit of revisionistic history. Last year everyone bitched that he shouldn't be signed until he proved himself. That the Franchise Tag was the way to go to see if he was legit or not.
Now we are claiming that because he did prove himself DG screwed it up by not signing him last year. Here's the funny thing, people that are bitching that losing a 3rd draft pick and a 4th or 5th the next year, also bitch that DG shouldn't be making those picks. I just find it really odd that giving away mid-round picks for a guy who was our best defensive player last year is somehow proof that DG sucks.
I don't think it's fair to say that "everyone" said that. I know I was against the use of the tag, and I was not alone. I remember arguing with Eric in Li about it a number of times last year - if memory serves, he was the one who was most adamantly in favor of the tag right from the moment the trade happened. My POV then was that it was silly to trade for an impending FA simply for the right to use the tag, and that LW was the type of player that you might pursue aggressively in free agency, but not one (at that time) who was worth giving up draft picks for without a contract in place.
I can admit that I was wrong about my view of LW's on-field value; the way he played this season places him in that upper echelon of defensive linemen across the league. But I was never in favor of the tag last offseason because my personal view was that the only way that it made sense for a non-contending team to trade for an impending FA was if they had assurances that he was going to sign a multi-year deal, and that he was willing to sign for slightly below market rate to stay in the area (and if you go back to the articles written around the time of the trade, as well as some well-informed posts here on BBI, there was quite a bit of chatter about LW preferring to stay in the area, which supposedly gave the Giants a leg up in re-signing him).
Using the tag was not only a pretty strong indicator that there was never any sort of deal in place at the time of the trade or thereafter, and it meant that there was no bargain to be had for this year - we were going to be paying top dollar (which the FT basically is, by definition) for a single season which left us with two possibilities: either he would continue at the level of production he had in the previous few seasons, in which case the trade itself AND the money spent this season would be wasteful, or he would further increase his value and leverage over what he already had last offseason. And even in a "prove it" scenario, we actually were still paying LW the type of money in 2020 that corresponds to already having proven it.
I'm thrilled with the way LW played this year and I'm glad to have been wrong about his value as a player, but I still don't agree with the way the whole scenario has played out. Regardless, it's water under the bridge now, and I hope we are able to sign him to a multi-year deal before he hits FA this offseason, because I think he's going to get big money even in a depressed market.
The only benefit of the tag, and I will admit that I was dismissive of it last year, is that if we don't end up re-signing LW, we're likely to recoup some of the trade value via comp pick. Given that, along with LW's production this season, we're in a better position now than I expected a year ago. As long as we don't tag LW again this offseason, there's a bright side to however this plays out.
Hope you’re well. At this point, we’re gonna have to sign him for whatever the premium market bucks may be. So be it.
Hopefully big Leonard's career year is the new norm.
Its actually a VERY good point UCONN. I never considered it. JPP was coming off of spirited effort given his injury, he really didnt produce much with 8 sacks in 20 games as a 4-3 DE btwn2015-16. But he then signs a deal avging 15.5 mill a year for that, then goes out and puts up 8.5 sacks for 15 mill, we trade him for a 3rd and he has flourished. We did almost the same thing except for a player who spearheads a defense, plays both ways well and is not getting much help.
Im sick of arguing this.
DG should have had some inkling of what it was going to take to re-sign LW and been willing to meet that price BEFORE making the trade. LW did not have the kind of finish to year 2019 to have significantly raised his stock, so either LW put out a low ball figure in bad faith, or DG mismanaged the situation.
in 2020, LW bet on himself and won. He'll get paid. Now, the only question is whether it's by the Giants, or someone else.
Too many holes to put too many eggs into just one LW basket.
I would point out that during the summer it was considered heretical on here to question whether Daniel Jones really is our franchise quarterback. So now, there is a certain herd mentality on here that it's insane to question whether re-signing Williams is the best way forward.
I would point out that during the summer it was considered heretical on here to question whether Daniel Jones really is our franchise quarterback. So now, there is a certain herd mentality on here that it's insane to question whether re-signing Williams is the best way forward.
I don't think that's accurate at all. We shouldn't be signing him to any dollar amount, there's gotta be a threshold we don't cross and if that's what it takes tag or release. Many people feel this way.
As for consistency, I'd need some hard data on it. How many of his games did he grade out poorly? How many did he dominate? The eye test tells me he had some dominant games (Seattle and Dallas especially) and very few poor games. Of the poor games was he doubled and what percentage of snaps?
In sum after Bradberry he was our best defender and helped a defense do a complete 180 from the disaster it was the last couple of years. We shouldn't be writing him a blank check but he's earned a big payday.
Amen brother.
Supposedly he and Tomlinson are best friends. Let's see if he'll sign a below market deal to stay with the Giants and Dalvin 4 more years.
I never believe the above type of statement, but Williams strikes me as a somewhat atypically honest and straight talking dude.
He doesn't fit everywhere so much as if in a custom tailored suit as he does in Graham's defense under Coach Spencer.
He had sacks in 8 games. He had pressures in every game but 1. He had TFL's (sacks aren't counted) in 9 games. He was on the field for at least 65% of the snaps in every game.
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I've read three pages on this thread and no one has questioned whether Williams is consistent enough to merit the outlay of re-signing him. Seems to me he would have two or three quiet, okay games and then put in a great performance. Tomlinson struck me as a more reliable performer.
I would point out that during the summer it was considered heretical on here to question whether Daniel Jones really is our franchise quarterback. So now, there is a certain herd mentality on here that it's insane to question whether re-signing Williams is the best way forward.
I don't think that's accurate at all. We shouldn't be signing him to any dollar amount, there's gotta be a threshold we don't cross and if that's what it takes tag or release. Many people feel this way.
That just isn't the case based on the number of posters in the threads that keep saying pay the man, keep him over everybody, #1 priority, pay the whatever the premium is, can't replace him, etc.
The prudent folks do have an inherent threshold they hope is not crossed, but that isn't very many people at all. The masses just can't see life on the D-line without him now.
Gruber's sentiments are correct.
However, I think there were a lot of times in-game that there was inconsistency on that DLine, especially in the first half of the season. That was prevalent across all the d-lineman, including Williams.
You can get into consistency with just about any player and with LW specifics weren’t even given. So what exactly are you in with agreement there? I posed some questions that would help frame that argument, or lack thereof, so if you’ve got that data I’d be happy to entertain that argument.
The eye test is the only other thing I have and he was a very disruptive player for us, 2nd best defender on the team.
The weekly LW threads portray a fan base that would break the bank with Williams, rest of the roster be damned. Akin to a drunken sailor on leave.
And that's where it's not prudent.
The two buckets I consistently read at length are those that know its a risk (as with any FA) and we shouldn't go over our max budgeted offer, and those that still really hate the trade and now having to pay him.
If this was a real world decision i'm going to wager that most of BBI aren't wild spenders and will assess the potential ramifications of large scale purchases, realizing they only have so much budget. Not all, but definitely most.
If this was a real world decision i'm going to wager that most of BBI aren't wild spenders and will assess the potential ramifications of large scale purchases, realizing they only have so much budget. Not all, but definitely most.
This is well put and much in agreement.
And maybe bonus points should be given...those are the realists!