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| 3. Leonard Williams, Edge/DT 2020 team: New York Giants | Age entering 2021 season: 27 The past year has been awfully good for Williams, who was traded to the Giants in 2019 and found a home in new coach Joe Judge's defense. His 11.5 sacks were a career high and more than he had amassed in the previous three seasons combined. And now Williams has enormous leverage over the Giants, who decided not to sign him to an extension before finalizing the trade. He spent 2020 as their franchised player. |
I think he had an elite season, but it's clearly his first one.
You're missing the point. Criticize it, it looks like a miss. I am criticizing the logic assuming the player selected in Beal's place was going to be better. The poster said the Beal miss hurt, well we don't know who the player was to be selected in his place to prove Beal Hurt the team.
What is unreasonable about my stance?
Sure, there are unknowns in any draft, but here's the thing, Beal's injury history wasn't an unknown. On top of that, there were numerous red flags about his practice habits, his effort in class.
As others have pointed out, there were many better choices out there, from McLaurin, to Winovich, to Nate Davis (and I'm not even looking at RB's David Montgomery and Devin Singletary).
DG reached for a guy he thought could help right away, despite Beal's history of not being reliable. How that isn't criticism-worthy is what is unreasonable.
Bottom line: we're here now - and on the Giants, LW is/had been an elite player...pay him his money.
Recall Dallas was the only other team reported to have interest in Williams back in 2019. But even they moved on and signed I believe Michael Bennett well before the Giants did the deal with the Jets at the deadline.
Williams could easily have made it to free agency after that season, particularly since his 2019 year wasn't anything special.
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You're missing the point. Criticize it, it looks like a miss. I am criticizing the logic assuming the player selected in Beal's place was going to be better. The poster said the Beal miss hurt, well we don't know who the player was to be selected in his place to prove Beal Hurt the team.
What is unreasonable about my stance?
Sure, there are unknowns in any draft, but here's the thing, Beal's injury history wasn't an unknown. On top of that, there were numerous red flags about his practice habits, his effort in class.
As others have pointed out, there were many better choices out there, from McLaurin, to Winovich, to Nate Davis (and I'm not even looking at RB's David Montgomery and Devin Singletary).
DG reached for a guy he thought could help right away, despite Beal's history of not being reliable. How that isn't criticism-worthy is what is unreasonable.
Beal was a clear cut miss and needs to go in that column.
There are two columns though misses and hits, just wish we had more in the right one.
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You're missing the point. Criticize it, it looks like a miss. I am criticizing the logic assuming the player selected in Beal's place was going to be better. The poster said the Beal miss hurt, well we don't know who the player was to be selected in his place to prove Beal Hurt the team.
What is unreasonable about my stance?
Sure, there are unknowns in any draft, but here's the thing, Beal's injury history wasn't an unknown. On top of that, there were numerous red flags about his practice habits, his effort in class.
As others have pointed out, there were many better choices out there, from McLaurin, to Winovich, to Nate Davis (and I'm not even looking at RB's David Montgomery and Devin Singletary).
DG reached for a guy he thought could help right away, despite Beal's history of not being reliable. How that isn't criticism-worthy is what is unreasonable.
My stance has zero to do with defending Gettleman. A miss is a miss. But, you can't just assume the player taken in place was going to be any better, not to mention better that it hurts the team by not having that player instead of Beal. I would say a miss on a single third round pick rarely hurts a team. Misses on those picks over time, yes.
You seem so caught up in making sure Gettleman gets his criticism that you are unable to discern other points.
I think he had an elite season, but it's clearly his first one.
I agree, nothing is certain right now. I think replicating 2020 will probably be hard, but if they do resign him they have to upgrade the outside pass rush to reinforce their investment in LW. That doesn't mean spending the #11 pick on it, but a day 2 asset should be prioritized coupled with one or 2 savvy vet signings.
So we offered $20m last year and he turned it down, and is now looking for that again? Interesting.
The offer was reportedly south of $15M, and some said it was $12-13M ballpark. LW bet on himself and won.
That phase is gone and in the past, now it's time to put a current value on LW and get a deal done or move him out.
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to the roster they trade for and franchise a specific target just so they don't have to pay out free agent type dollars. Not realizing the trade itself created the toughest bidder they probably were ever going to have deal with.
Leverage was given up, they missed out on just bidding for him back in Spring of 2020, and now it has reached on another level with his career year.
They misread the situation and created the very thing they gave up drafts picks to avoid.
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And now Williams has enormous leverage over the Giants, who decided not to sign him to an extension before finalizing the trade.
+1 people that don't understand this are naive.. No one in the NFL was wiling to give up much for him.. Giants outbid everyone to get him.. meaning no one else thought LW was worth much add to it that he ended that season with 1/2 a sack.. no one in the world would've paid him 16M for 2020 if the Giants hadn't traded for him.. and the Giants only did that to save face.. he rewarded them with the best year of his life by a huge mile.. and now we will give him 5 yr $100M..
You are just wrong. We know the Cowboys were one of a couple teams that offered a #3 for LW. I think the Chiefs were another(SWAG).
That's a bit of revisionistic history. Last year everyone bitched that he shouldn't be signed until he proved himself. That the Franchise Tag was the way to go to see if he was legit or not.
Now we are claiming that because he did prove himself DG screwed it up by not signing him last year. Here's the funny thing, people that are bitching that losing a 3rd draft pick and a 4th or 5th the next year, also bitch that DG shouldn't be making those picks. I just find it really odd that giving away mid-round picks for a guy who was our best defensive player last year is somehow proof that DG sucks.
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I'm not sure LW is an "elite player" yet.
I think he had an elite season, but it's clearly his first one.
I agree, nothing is certain right now. I think replicating 2020 will probably be hard, but if they do resign him they have to upgrade the outside pass rush to reinforce their investment in LW. That doesn't mean spending the #11 pick on it, but a day 2 asset should be prioritized coupled with one or 2 savvy vet signings.
I think it's GM law that you never pay for a guy going into FA after a career year.
I hear you on that - this certainly appears to be the case here on the surface.
However - LW seems to me a guy that is a gamechanger on the Giants. All reports are that the guy works hard, is beloved as a teammate and loves playing for the NYG.
I don't have the time to go back and look through this - but the Giants defense changed significantly after LW came on board. I'll bet the Giants have increased in every significant category since he came on board - I know it's true against the run. He instantly made that defensive front significantly better.
Without him - they stunk - and that was with a lot of the same guys. Go back and look.
I get the naysayers - I get the "you don't overspend on IDL" ... there's a lot of evidence out there to prove me wrong.
BUT I just feel like there's some players that mean more to an organization - and since coming onboard with the Giants - he's turned into one of those guys for me.
Lord Almighty - this looks like I'm the president of the LW fanclub!
Incorrect
Question it, go nuts. But most of the comments here are making it seem like we could force LW to sign a lower offer.
I'm well past caring about the 3rd and 5th - we likely got our money's worth on the trade for this season alone, but if you want to harp on how much we gave up than go for it.
In the end I wish he was signed already but its a business and he's trying to get a good deal, it happens.
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In comment 15127815 chick310 said:
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to the roster they trade for and franchise a specific target just so they don't have to pay out free agent type dollars. Not realizing the trade itself created the toughest bidder they probably were ever going to have deal with.
Leverage was given up, they missed out on just bidding for him back in Spring of 2020, and now it has reached on another level with his career year.
They misread the situation and created the very thing they gave up drafts picks to avoid.
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And now Williams has enormous leverage over the Giants, who decided not to sign him to an extension before finalizing the trade.
+1 people that don't understand this are naive.. No one in the NFL was wiling to give up much for him.. Giants outbid everyone to get him.. meaning no one else thought LW was worth much add to it that he ended that season with 1/2 a sack.. no one in the world would've paid him 16M for 2020 if the Giants hadn't traded for him.. and the Giants only did that to save face.. he rewarded them with the best year of his life by a huge mile.. and now we will give him 5 yr $100M..
You are just wrong. We know the Cowboys were one of a couple teams that offered a #3 for LW. I think the Chiefs were another(SWAG).
You are wrong all they offered at best was a late 3rd.. none of them offered a better trade than us.. which was a 3rd.. for a good DL playoff teams are willing to offer much more..
So many people went bonkers and dug in about the trade being a "fireable offense" that they still don't have a fucking clue how to put the pitchfork back in the garage.
Maybe it is still sticking in Gettleman, or maybe they jabbed it up their rectum and can't dislodge it.
But so many posters gave passionate posts about how the trade was one of the worst in NFL history and how Gettleman was a complete buffoon for doing it that they just can't backtrack now.
Sad, but unfortunately true.
You are wrong all they offered at best was a late 3rd.. none of them offered a better trade than us.. which was a 3rd.. for a good DL playoff teams are willing to offer much more..
Oh ok, they offered a #3 but it wasn't like our #3. That kind of logic is laughable. Sounds more like "yeah but, but, but...."
Not many in season trades net much more than a 3 unless a QB. Most a 5, it seems.
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You are wrong all they offered at best was a late 3rd.. none of them offered a better trade than us.. which was a 3rd.. for a good DL playoff teams are willing to offer much more..
Oh ok, they offered a #3 but it wasn't like our #3. That kind of logic is laughable. Sounds more like "yeah but, but, but...."
Not many in season trades net much more than a 3 unless a QB. Most a 5, it seems.
How is that laughable? Jets took the best offer meaning no one else had a better offer than us.. There were playoff teams who needed DL help and they didn't offer more than we did.. That shows you what other teams valued LW at.. not some know it all on BBI..
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You are wrong all they offered at best was a late 3rd.. none of them offered a better trade than us.. which was a 3rd.. for a good DL playoff teams are willing to offer much more..
Oh ok, they offered a #3 but it wasn't like our #3. That kind of logic is laughable. Sounds more like "yeah but, but, but...."
Not many in season trades net much more than a 3 unless a QB. Most a 5, it seems.
Just to get back to this. Dallas is not reported to have given an offer for Williams, nor any other team for that matter.
Further, Dallas withdrew their interest a week earlier and traded for Michael Bennett for a 6th or 7th rd pick. The Giants were not competing in the end with Dallas for Leonard Williams.
So many people went bonkers and dug in about the trade being a "fireable offense" that they still don't have a fucking clue how to put the pitchfork back in the garage.
Maybe it is still sticking in Gettleman, or maybe they jabbed it up their rectum and can't dislodge it.
But so many posters gave passionate posts about how the trade was one of the worst in NFL history and how Gettleman was a complete buffoon for doing it that they just can't backtrack now.
Sad, but unfortunately true.
That being said, they identified a player that they thought would be good, and secured him. Not sure if they didn't think they'd be able to sign him in the offseason (which is probably true considering he got franchised), so that is the only potential defense of the trade, in my eyes.
As for this year, I think I'd franchise him again if they can't get a deal done to their liking. Make him prove it again. If he puts up another year like this one, you shower the man with money.
Separately, the kid put a fantastic season up and now it's on to the next decision tree. He is recognizing his potential and the FOOTBALL aspect of the trade looks terrific. Now, where does DG go from here with LW is a big key to this offseason. And, they need to get it done so they're able to have more focus on the Jones situation. They need to see where he's at a year from now so they're prepared to pick up his fifth year option or start looking for a replacement.
Separately, the kid put a fantastic season up and now it's on to the next decision tree. He is recognizing his potential and the FOOTBALL aspect of the trade looks terrific. Now, where does DG go from here with LW is a big key to this offseason. And, they need to get it done so they're able to have more focus on the Jones situation. They need to see where he's at a year from now so they're prepared to pick up his fifth year option or start looking for a replacement.
Perfectly put JonC.
I agree, at the same time it feels damned good they scored with LW. But, they've got to improve the batting average, for certain.
Go find another guy instead.
so you're comparing a deadline deal for a pending free agent....to an offseason deal for a guy under team control for 3 years? That's not comparable at all.
He's priority #1, IMO.
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Even if you feel the trade was not a great one with regards to the timing, the draft picks sent out, the failure to sign an extension a year ago ... and I agree DG gets a poor grade on the execution aspect of bringing LW in here.
Separately, the kid put a fantastic season up and now it's on to the next decision tree. He is recognizing his potential and the FOOTBALL aspect of the trade looks terrific. Now, where does DG go from here with LW is a big key to this offseason. And, they need to get it done so they're able to have more focus on the Jones situation. They need to see where he's at a year from now so they're prepared to pick up his fifth year option or start looking for a replacement.
Perfectly put JonC.
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In comment 15127909 chuckydee9 said:
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You are wrong all they offered at best was a late 3rd.. none of them offered a better trade than us.. which was a 3rd.. for a good DL playoff teams are willing to offer much more..
Oh ok, they offered a #3 but it wasn't like our #3. That kind of logic is laughable. Sounds more like "yeah but, but, but...."
Not many in season trades net much more than a 3 unless a QB. Most a 5, it seems.
Just to get back to this. Dallas is not reported to have given an offer for Williams, nor any other team for that matter.
Further, Dallas withdrew their interest a week earlier and traded for Michael Bennett for a 6th or 7th rd pick. The Giants were not competing in the end with Dallas for Leonard Williams.
Yes it was reported. It didn't come to me in a dream...
So many people went bonkers and dug in about the trade being a "fireable offense" that they still don't have a fucking clue how to put the pitchfork back in the garage.
Maybe it is still sticking in Gettleman, or maybe they jabbed it up their rectum and can't dislodge it.
But so many posters gave passionate posts about how the trade was one of the worst in NFL history and how Gettleman was a complete buffoon for doing it that they just can't backtrack now.
Sad, but unfortunately true.
Well said. The goalposts continue to move. When we do sign him the same characters will be begging to cut him for cap space.
Wasn't he playing for a "big contract" in '19? Before and after the trade?
Could it be that maybe, just maybe, he now has a good coaching staff and that he's maturing (he reached out to Richard Seymour last offseason for help training) and he's finally reaching the potential that made him the 6th overall pick?
Is that really so hard to believe?
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Or he is playing for a big contract, had a career year and will go back to what he was for the Jets and his first half season- good player but not worthy of being paid as a top 3 player at his position.
Wasn't he playing for a "big contract" in '19? Before and after the trade?
Could it be that maybe, just maybe, he now has a good coaching staff and that he's maturing (he reached out to Richard Seymour last offseason for help training) and he's finally reaching the potential that made him the 6th overall pick?
Is that really so hard to believe?
I hope you are correct and. He plays at this level for the next 5 years..
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traded a 3rd for JPP, and that’s worked out for both parties. He was signed already so not exactly apples to apple but bad teams trade picks for players and this is a fairly comparable example.
so you're comparing a deadline deal for a pending free agent....to an offseason deal for a guy under team control for 3 years? That's not comparable at all.
I am not, hence “not exactly apples to apples”. When you take into account JPPs injury history and amount owed with LWs age and upside, it’s a lot closer than you think. If you don’t agree that’s fine
Just to get back to this. Dallas is not reported to have given an offer for Williams, nor any other team for that matter.
Further, Dallas withdrew their interest a week earlier and traded for Michael Bennett for a 6th or 7th rd pick. The Giants were not competing in the end with Dallas for Leonard Williams.
Yes it was reported. It didn't come to me in a dream...
Section 125 I am not trying to be argumentative, but that just isn't the case. Dallas lost interest with Williams and did the deal with the Patriots a week earlier for Bennett.
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Or he is playing for a big contract, had a career year and will go back to what he was for the Jets and his first half season- good player but not worthy of being paid as a top 3 player at his position.
Wasn't he playing for a "big contract" in '19? Before and after the trade?
Could it be that maybe, just maybe, he now has a good coaching staff and that he's maturing (he reached out to Richard Seymour last offseason for help training) and he's finally reaching the potential that made him the 6th overall pick?
Is that really so hard to believe?
Dr. D It is exactly what we all would like to believe. But the Giants are still left in the same situation even if they do believe it, and that is how much is Williams worth and do they want to pay it based on their other roster concerns.
As for the why he didn't sign, no clue.
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In comment 15128014 UConn4523 said:
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traded a 3rd for JPP, and that’s worked out for both parties. He was signed already so not exactly apples to apple but bad teams trade picks for players and this is a fairly comparable example.
so you're comparing a deadline deal for a pending free agent....to an offseason deal for a guy under team control for 3 years? That's not comparable at all.
I am not, hence “not exactly apples to apples”. When you take into account JPPs injury history and amount owed with LWs age and upside, it’s a lot closer than you think. If you don’t agree that’s fine
you called it a "fairly comparable example". It's not.
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traded a 3rd for JPP, and that’s worked out for both parties. He was signed already so not exactly apples to apple but bad teams trade picks for players and this is a fairly comparable example.
He was signed already-makes a big difference. I don't know that there are really any legitimate complaints with the trade. Trades occur all the time.
if there are other examples of losing teams trading picks at the deadline for pending free agents, I'd love to hear them. Kenyan Drake is sorta similar, but it was only for a sixth rounder.
Now, we give up a 3 and 5 and get a 25 year old with almost no injury history and lots of upside, but in a contract year (this decreases his price). And the 3 years before the trade he had a few less sacks than JPP did in his 3 years prior to the trade.
I don't think the two are far off despite the scenarios being different.
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In comment 15127985 JonC said:
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Even if you feel the trade was not a great one with regards to the timing, the draft picks sent out, the failure to sign an extension a year ago ... and I agree DG gets a poor grade on the execution aspect of bringing LW in here.
Separately, the kid put a fantastic season up and now it's on to the next decision tree. He is recognizing his potential and the FOOTBALL aspect of the trade looks terrific. Now, where does DG go from here with LW is a big key to this offseason. And, they need to get it done so they're able to have more focus on the Jones situation. They need to see where he's at a year from now so they're prepared to pick up his fifth year option or start looking for a replacement.
Perfectly put JonC.
Or he is playing for a big contract, had a career year and will go back to what he was for the Jets and his first half season- good player but not worthy of being paid as a top 3 player at his position.
I don't recall hearing anything about him being lazy or disinterested as a player. And as we've all seen, coaching makes a huge difference. Graham and staff have unlocked not only LWs but Peppers and others too.
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In comment 15127991 Victor in CT said:
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In comment 15127985 JonC said:
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Even if you feel the trade was not a great one with regards to the timing, the draft picks sent out, the failure to sign an extension a year ago ... and I agree DG gets a poor grade on the execution aspect of bringing LW in here.
Separately, the kid put a fantastic season up and now it's on to the next decision tree. He is recognizing his potential and the FOOTBALL aspect of the trade looks terrific. Now, where does DG go from here with LW is a big key to this offseason. And, they need to get it done so they're able to have more focus on the Jones situation. They need to see where he's at a year from now so they're prepared to pick up his fifth year option or start looking for a replacement.
Perfectly put JonC.
Or he is playing for a big contract, had a career year and will go back to what he was for the Jets and his first half season- good player but not worthy of being paid as a top 3 player at his position.
I don't recall hearing anything about him being lazy or disinterested as a player. And as we've all seen, coaching makes a huge difference. Graham and staff have unlocked not only LWs but Peppers and others too.
DG traded for an impending free agent and many fans kept saying that DG must have already had a handshake agreement in place with LW's representation prior to FA. Obviously, that wasn't the case.
These things tend to go this way when a team is reactive.