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Thegratefulhead : 1/19/2021 10:42 am
Championship games, same as it ever was. As much as things change, they stay the same. Elite QB play still looks extremely important to advance to the Super Bowl.
If you don't  
Josh in the City : 1/19/2021 10:50 am : link
have a top franchise QB then you have very little chance of long term success. It is by far the most important decision to nail if you want to build a winning team.
RE: If you don't  
Dnew15 : 1/19/2021 11:03 am : link
In comment 15127734 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
have a top franchise QB then you have very little chance of long term success. It is by far the most important decision to nail if you want to build a winning team.


This is just a cold hard fact of the NFL.

And for the crowd that's all about "the NFL is a year to year league"...anyone want to bet against one of those four not making it next year?
RE: RE: If you don't  
TommyWiseau : 1/19/2021 11:08 am : link
In comment 15127755 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15127734 Josh in the City said:


Quote:


have a top franchise QB then you have very little chance of long term success. It is by far the most important decision to nail if you want to build a winning team.



This is just a cold hard fact of the NFL.

And for the crowd that's all about "the NFL is a year to year league"...anyone want to bet against one of those four not making it next year?


2 out of the 4 will make it to the Championship games next year. Elite QB play is essential in today's NFL for year to year success
only 3  
Ron Johnson : 1/19/2021 11:12 am : link
of those guys have been elite this year
.  
GiantEgo : 1/19/2021 11:15 am : link
So there is a difference between franchise and elite franchise...
Josh Allen was Shurmur's choice  
90.Cal : 1/19/2021 11:28 am : link
Pat Mahomes was McAdoo's choice

Ouch
RE: only 3  
90.Cal : 1/19/2021 11:30 am : link
In comment 15127778 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:
of those guys have been elite this year


What are you, high?
RE: .  
Dnew15 : 1/19/2021 11:35 am : link
In comment 15127783 GiantEgo said:
Quote:
So there is a difference between franchise and elite franchise...


Good point - I never thought about that...but i think you're right.

Matt Stafford, Kirk Cousins, Matt Ryan - I would put them in the franchise QB category - but they aren't elite - I think Matt RYan was at one point, but not anymore.
Ryan had a couple of elite years  
ryanmkeane : 1/19/2021 11:37 am : link
and won a MVP in 2016. He's lack of mobility is what has hurt him as he's entering the back 9. But, I've always thought the highest ceiling of Jones can be reminded me of Ryan a bit.
RE: Ryan had a couple of elite years  
Dnew15 : 1/19/2021 11:42 am : link
In comment 15127821 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
and won a MVP in 2016. He's lack of mobility is what has hurt him as he's entering the back 9. But, I've always thought the highest ceiling of Jones can be reminded me of Ryan a bit.


I think when all is said and done - Matt Ryan is going to be borderline HOF, at the very least he'll be a solid member of the Hall of Very Good.

I don't see DJ in Matt Ryan - DJ is way faster and more of a threat to run the ball than I ever remember Matt Ryan being.

I also think Matt Ryan was a significantly better pocket QB than DJ will ever be. BUt to be fair to DJ - he doesn't have a Julio Jones to throw to.

I hope your QB scouting skills are better than mine :)
Points Scored Rankings  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 1/19/2021 11:44 am : link
Packers: #1
Bills: #2
Bucs: #3
Chiefs: #6

I don't know if "defense wins championships" applies anymore to today's air it out NFL. You have the top 3 teams in terms of points scored plus the Chiefs who are probably the scariest offense in the league when they are rolling.
Jones is a tough comp  
Thegratefulhead : 1/19/2021 11:46 am : link
He is fast but not elusive at all. He is accurate but lacks a great arm. He has good size but fumbles too much. Alex Smith?
RE: Jones is a tough comp  
Producer : 1/19/2021 11:49 am : link
In comment 15127834 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
He is fast but not elusive at all. He is accurate but lacks a great arm. He has good size but fumbles too much. Alex Smith?


He is not accurate.
RE: Jones is a tough comp  
Dnew15 : 1/19/2021 11:51 am : link
In comment 15127834 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
He is fast but not elusive at all. He is accurate but lacks a great arm. He has good size but fumbles too much. Alex Smith?


I agree - he's a very tough comp.

I asked this question a few weeks ago and someone came up with a faster (straight line speed) version of Jared GOff.

I think I'd buy that.
RE: RE: Jones is a tough comp  
Thegratefulhead : 1/19/2021 11:51 am : link
In comment 15127843 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15127834 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


He is fast but not elusive at all. He is accurate but lacks a great arm. He has good size but fumbles too much. Alex Smith?



He is not accurate.
You should look at tight window throws in his short career. We disagree.
RE: Points Scored Rankings  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/19/2021 11:51 am : link
In comment 15127831 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
Packers: #1
Bills: #2
Bucs: #3
Chiefs: #6

I don't know if "defense wins championships" applies anymore to today's air it out NFL. You have the top 3 teams in terms of points scored plus the Chiefs who are probably the scariest offense in the league when they are rolling.


The top 3 defenses this year were the Rams, Steelers, and Saints. They were all buoyed by mediocre QB play this year. Rams chance was sunk with that Donald injury. Baltimore, TB, and Chicago were also top 10.
when looking at comps  
ryanmkeane : 1/19/2021 12:07 pm : link
you have to look at the projection and not just the first year or two. My comp for Jones is a better version of Kirk Cousins, and a slightly worse version of Matt Ryan
RE: when looking at comps  
Dnew15 : 1/19/2021 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15127866 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
you have to look at the projection and not just the first year or two. My comp for Jones is a better version of Kirk Cousins, and a slightly worse version of Matt Ryan


I'm interested in "the projection" what exactly are you referring to there?
A stat line or a collection of statistical information?
Or is it more-
How you personally think he'll grow based on what you're seeing and comparing that to evaluating how both Cousins and Ryan grew and developed?
RE: when looking at comps  
section125 : 1/19/2021 12:14 pm : link
In comment 15127866 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
you have to look at the projection and not just the first year or two. My comp for Jones is a better version of Kirk Cousins, and a slightly worse version of Matt Ryan



Frankly, while I want him to have a full season with Barkley, a decent line and at least two WRs or TE to get a true baseline, I would not compare him with anybody yet. He did fumble too much, but at least appears to be much better. He is the most accurate deep ball thrower(IIRC for the broadcast teams), he was shaky at the end of last year with his accuracy. Aikman said he is trying top hard to not make a mistake instead of just throwing it(paraphrased as best I could).

So we do not know who Daniel Jones is except he is not Rodgers, Mahomes or L Jackson.
RE: RE: when looking at comps  
Dnew15 : 1/19/2021 12:19 pm : link
In comment 15127873 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15127866 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


you have to look at the projection and not just the first year or two. My comp for Jones is a better version of Kirk Cousins, and a slightly worse version of Matt Ryan




Frankly, while I want him to have a full season with Barkley, a decent line and at least two WRs or TE to get a true baseline, I would not compare him with anybody yet. He did fumble too much, but at least appears to be much better. He is the most accurate deep ball thrower(IIRC for the broadcast teams), he was shaky at the end of last year with his accuracy. Aikman said he is trying top hard to not make a mistake instead of just throwing it(paraphrased as best I could).

So we do not know who Daniel Jones is except he is not Rodgers, Mahomes or L Jackson.


But at the same time - there is two years worth of tape on this guy playing in the NFL. You can't just throw it out and pretend it doesn't exist. The guy has played in 26 professional football games, I think it's fair for fans to make some sort of overall evaluation based on the information available other than "we just need more time to find out".

RE: RE: RE: when looking at comps  
Thegratefulhead : 1/19/2021 12:22 pm : link
In comment 15127882 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15127873 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15127866 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


you have to look at the projection and not just the first year or two. My comp for Jones is a better version of Kirk Cousins, and a slightly worse version of Matt Ryan




Frankly, while I want him to have a full season with Barkley, a decent line and at least two WRs or TE to get a true baseline, I would not compare him with anybody yet. He did fumble too much, but at least appears to be much better. He is the most accurate deep ball thrower(IIRC for the broadcast teams), he was shaky at the end of last year with his accuracy. Aikman said he is trying top hard to not make a mistake instead of just throwing it(paraphrased as best I could).

So we do not know who Daniel Jones is except he is not Rodgers, Mahomes or L Jackson.



But at the same time - there is two years worth of tape on this guy playing in the NFL. You can't just throw it out and pretend it doesn't exist. The guy has played in 26 professional football games, I think it's fair for fans to make some sort of overall evaluation based on the information available other than "we just need more time to find out".
Very reasonable.
RE: Points Scored Rankings  
bw in dc : 1/19/2021 12:39 pm : link
In comment 15127831 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
Packers: #1
Bills: #2
Bucs: #3
Chiefs: #6

I don't know if "defense wins championships" applies anymore to today's air it out NFL. You have the top 3 teams in terms of points scored plus the Chiefs who are probably the scariest offense in the league when they are rolling.


I mostly agree. You have to score.

Meanwhile, Green Bay, Tampa, Buffalo, and KC were 3,4,5 and 6, respectively, in the NFL in point differential. So defense certainly has a role, but you don't need a Ravens D, circa 2000.
BW lol  
Thegratefulhead : 1/19/2021 12:42 pm : link
You sound like an announcer,

"You have to score points to win the game"

Thanks.

RE: Points Scored Rankings  
lax counsel : 1/19/2021 12:44 pm : link
In comment 15127831 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
Packers: #1
Bills: #2
Bucs: #3
Chiefs: #6

I don't know if "defense wins championships" applies anymore to today's air it out NFL. You have the top 3 teams in terms of points scored plus the Chiefs who are probably the scariest offense in the league when they are rolling.


In today's NFL, you pretty much need a top 10 offense to win the SB. You need a competent defense that can defend the pass and rush the passer, but not a shutdown defense. Of course if you are top 10 in both, the job is that much easier. But more recent statistical analysis clearly shows a top 10 offense is a prerequisite to a championship team. Generally, these offenses are also led by top 10 qbs.
RE: BW lol  
bw in dc : 1/19/2021 12:48 pm : link
In comment 15127916 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
You sound like an announcer,

"You have to score points to win the game"

Thanks.


Simplicity at it's finest. ;)

RE: RE: Jones is a tough comp  
Saquads26 : 1/19/2021 12:51 pm : link
In comment 15127843 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15127834 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


He is fast but not elusive at all. He is accurate but lacks a great arm. He has good size but fumbles too much. Alex Smith?



He is not accurate.


Only he is The Truth
RE: only 3  
Saquads26 : 1/19/2021 12:52 pm : link
In comment 15127778 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:
of those guys have been elite this year


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yes, indeed  
JonC : 1/19/2021 12:52 pm : link
it's why I hate the concept of drafting the best QB in a particular draft and then trying to build around him.
RE: RE: RE: when looking at comps  
section125 : 1/19/2021 12:54 pm : link
In comment 15127882 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15127873 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15127866 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


you have to look at the projection and not just the first year or two. My comp for Jones is a better version of Kirk Cousins, and a slightly worse version of Matt Ryan




Frankly, while I want him to have a full season with Barkley, a decent line and at least two WRs or TE to get a true baseline, I would not compare him with anybody yet. He did fumble too much, but at least appears to be much better. He is the most accurate deep ball thrower(IIRC for the broadcast teams), he was shaky at the end of last year with his accuracy. Aikman said he is trying top hard to not make a mistake instead of just throwing it(paraphrased as best I could).

So we do not know who Daniel Jones is except he is not Rodgers, Mahomes or L Jackson.



But at the same time - there is two years worth of tape on this guy playing in the NFL. You can't just throw it out and pretend it doesn't exist. The guy has played in 26 professional football games, I think it's fair for fans to make some sort of overall evaluation based on the information available other than "we just need more time to find out".


98% Fans do not know what they are looking at. If you go by tape of 2019 you see a QB with damn fine accuracy and touch who fumbled way the hell too much. But who had 5 x 300 yd games behind a crappy line with limited weapons. If you saw 2020 tape you saw a guy not as good as the previous year but who learned to hang on to the ball about mid-season. No not a good year.

Again, we the public have not got a clue, or maybe a just vague understanding for the sharper people.

I'm a not a cluer. But I do know enough to know that I do not know.

They need to give him a fighting chance to succeed. If he falls flat again next year, we will all know.
I wonder..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/19/2021 12:56 pm : link
how many people here knew that Josh Allen didn't have a single 300 yard passing day last season.

And I say that not to point to comparisons, but we hear time and again that Jones has such an anemic output of yards and TD's that he can't get better. Even though the year prior, he had both yards and TD's.

he can improve on those numbers. And I think he surely will
RE: RE: RE: Jones is a tough comp  
Producer : 1/19/2021 12:58 pm : link
In comment 15127848 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15127843 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15127834 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


He is fast but not elusive at all. He is accurate but lacks a great arm. He has good size but fumbles too much. Alex Smith?



He is not accurate.

You should look at tight window throws in his short career. We disagree.


You should look at completion pct, y/a and y/c. He is abysmal by those metrics. You think he is accurate because he occasionally throws a nice looking ball. The stats are clear.. he is not accurate.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/19/2021 12:59 pm : link
Abysmal by completion %?? Are you fucking kidding me?
.  
Go Terps : 1/19/2021 12:59 pm : link
The Giants gave up fewer points than Green Bay, KC, and Buffalo. They gave up only 2 points more than Tampa.
Winning in the NFL isn't about defense, time of possession, or establishing the run. It's about scoring through explosive plays in the passing game.

So in that context, look at how the Giants are constructed:

- Offensive coordinator who seeks to establish the run, control the clock, and put together long drives to score points
- Quarterback that struggles to see the field and pass from the pocket
- Highly drafted running back
- Wide receivers that don't excel in creating separation or YAC...but even if they did they aren't running routes that promote separation or YAC

Welp.
RE: I wonder..  
Producer : 1/19/2021 12:59 pm : link
In comment 15127939 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
how many people here knew that Josh Allen didn't have a single 300 yard passing day last season.

And I say that not to point to comparisons, but we hear time and again that Jones has such an anemic output of yards and TD's that he can't get better. Even though the year prior, he had both yards and TD's.

he can improve on those numbers. And I think he surely will


He surely can't get worse. But marginal improvement isn't enough. We don't want to be stuck with a Trubisky, sometimes good but mostly not good enough.
No matter what...  
Amtoft : 1/19/2021 1:04 pm : link
we will have a HOF QB for the NFC and a young star for the AFC.
RE: No matter what...  
Producer : 1/19/2021 1:05 pm : link
In comment 15127952 Amtoft said:
Quote:
we will have a HOF QB for the NFC and a young star for the AFC.


Mahomes already has one foot in Canton. You might as well call him a HOFer.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones is a tough comp  
Saquads26 : 1/19/2021 1:07 pm : link
In comment 15127940 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15127848 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15127843 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15127834 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


He is fast but not elusive at all. He is accurate but lacks a great arm. He has good size but fumbles too much. Alex Smith?



He is not accurate.

You should look at tight window throws in his short career. We disagree.



You should look at completion pct, y/a and y/c. He is abysmal by those metrics. You think he is accurate because he occasionally throws a nice looking ball. The stats are clear.. he is not accurate.


You think Lamar is good. Case closed
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones is a tough comp  
Producer : 1/19/2021 1:12 pm : link
In comment 15127957 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
In comment 15127940 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15127848 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15127843 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15127834 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


He is fast but not elusive at all. He is accurate but lacks a great arm. He has good size but fumbles too much. Alex Smith?



He is not accurate.

You should look at tight window throws in his short career. We disagree.



You should look at completion pct, y/a and y/c. He is abysmal by those metrics. You think he is accurate because he occasionally throws a nice looking ball. The stats are clear.. he is not accurate.



You think Lamar is good. Case closed


Lamar Jackson won an MVP in this league and has two consecutive playoff appearances. In an off year he was 7th in QBR and 11th in QB Rate. He is at least "good". You keep shooting your mouth off about Jones, he doesn't compare favorably to Lamar in almost any facet of the game. There isn't a single observer outside of this board and maybe Gettleman who would take Jones over Lamar.
RE: LOL..  
Thegratefulhead : 1/19/2021 1:15 pm : link
In comment 15127943 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Abysmal by completion %?? Are you fucking kidding me?
It is absurd.
RE: RE: LOL..  
Producer : 1/19/2021 1:18 pm : link
In comment 15127970 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15127943 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Abysmal by completion %?? Are you fucking kidding me?

It is absurd.


it's absurd to talk about completion % when discussing a QBs accuracy? You know that is the single clearest measure of a QBs accuracy, right? In 2020 Jones was 31st in comp %. In 2019 he was 24th. The contention that he is accurate is absurd.
Separation  
Thegratefulhead : 1/19/2021 1:19 pm : link
When you account for the fact that he has the worst separation in the NFL to throw to and his tight window throws are among the top in the league, considering his completion percentage in the context of receiver separation, the picture of accuracy should become clearer.
RE: RE: RE: RE: when looking at comps  
Dnew15 : 1/19/2021 1:27 pm : link
In comment 15127935 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15127882 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


In comment 15127873 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15127866 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


you have to look at the projection and not just the first year or two. My comp for Jones is a better version of Kirk Cousins, and a slightly worse version of Matt Ryan




Frankly, while I want him to have a full season with Barkley, a decent line and at least two WRs or TE to get a true baseline, I would not compare him with anybody yet. He did fumble too much, but at least appears to be much better. He is the most accurate deep ball thrower(IIRC for the broadcast teams), he was shaky at the end of last year with his accuracy. Aikman said he is trying top hard to not make a mistake instead of just throwing it(paraphrased as best I could).

So we do not know who Daniel Jones is except he is not Rodgers, Mahomes or L Jackson.



But at the same time - there is two years worth of tape on this guy playing in the NFL. You can't just throw it out and pretend it doesn't exist. The guy has played in 26 professional football games, I think it's fair for fans to make some sort of overall evaluation based on the information available other than "we just need more time to find out".




98% Fans do not know what they are looking at. If you go by tape of 2019 you see a QB with damn fine accuracy and touch who fumbled way the hell too much. But who had 5 x 300 yd games behind a crappy line with limited weapons. If you saw 2020 tape you saw a guy not as good as the previous year but who learned to hang on to the ball about mid-season. No not a good year.

Again, we the public have not got a clue, or maybe a just vague understanding for the sharper people.

I'm a not a cluer. But I do know enough to know that I do not know.

They need to give him a fighting chance to succeed. If he falls flat again next year, we will all know.


I'm certainly not a part of the 2% either - in football IQ or otherwise :)

But when I look at that 2019 tape/stats I see some serious outliers. I see a kid rip up some historically bad defenses in games that amounted to a whole lot of nothing.

In 2020 I saw a QB with the ball in hands with a chance to win/ice the game and couldn't get it done.

That worries me... a lot.
Jones is a 62% passer..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/19/2021 1:32 pm : link
on a team where the WR's cannot get separation.

Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.
RE: Separation  
Producer : 1/19/2021 1:34 pm : link
In comment 15127978 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
When you account for the fact that he has the worst separation in the NFL to throw to and his tight window throws are among the top in the league, considering his completion percentage in the context of receiver separation, the picture of accuracy should become clearer.


I am beyond tired of the separation excuse. Tight window metrics don't trump comp pct or other objective metrics. But even if I accept it as a reliable stat you have to deal with the flip side. PFF (who rank Jones the 24th best QB in 2020 which sounds about right but his absolute ceiling this season) acknowledged Jones was above average in tight windows but he was below league average when his receiver had a step or more. BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE throwing to open receivers. I look forward to you excuse for that one as you continue to baby our adult QB who has yet to impress statistically. Link below.
Jones final 2020 PFF eval - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Points Scored Rankings  
LBH15 : 1/19/2021 1:36 pm : link
In comment 15127919 lax counsel said:
Quote:
In comment 15127831 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:


Quote:


Packers: #1
Bills: #2
Bucs: #3
Chiefs: #6

I don't know if "defense wins championships" applies anymore to today's air it out NFL. You have the top 3 teams in terms of points scored plus the Chiefs who are probably the scariest offense in the league when they are rolling.



In today's NFL, you pretty much need a top 10 offense to win the SB. You need a competent defense that can defend the pass and rush the passer, but not a shutdown defense. Of course if you are top 10 in both, the job is that much easier. But more recent statistical analysis clearly shows a top 10 offense is a prerequisite to a championship team. Generally, these offenses are also led by top 10 qbs.


Agree with this sentiment. Nothing wrong or bad at all with having a good defense, but given the choice in today's game you would want to build offensive-minded without question.
RE: Jones is a 62% passer..  
Go Terps : 1/19/2021 1:41 pm : link
In comment 15127998 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
on a team where the WR's cannot get separation.

Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.


Why can't the wide receivers get separation?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: when looking at comps  
section125 : 1/19/2021 1:52 pm : link
In comment 15127988 Dnew15 said:
Quote:







I'm certainly not a part of the 2% either - in football IQ or otherwise :)

But when I look at that 2019 tape/stats I see some serious outliers. I see a kid rip up some historically bad defenses in games that amounted to a whole lot of nothing.

In 2020 I saw a QB with the ball in hands with a chance to win/ice the game and couldn't get it done.

That worries me... a lot.


I'm really not interested in rehashing games, but if you have the same receivers that failed to come through in early parts of games, why would you expect them to catch the ball or get open when the game is on the line? Aside from Shepard who was reliable catching the ball? So you can say he did not get it done, but who was he to throw too. He had the 1st Philly game won if Engram catches that pass down the sideline, correct? One of the games after a hold, they had a 2nd and 22 he hit Engram in the hands on what have been a mimimum 18 yard gain(it may have been the 2nd Cowboys game or the Ravens game.)

If you think back to the game the Giants beat the Packers in the playoffs in 2011/12, Rodgers hit McMichaels in the hands 5 times and each would have been a big gain and McMichaels dropped it each time. Was that Rodgers fault?

The big thing we do not know is if he is making the correct reads. We have a few posters telling us he is not. How do they know? We have posters telling us he is slow to read. Again how do they know? They could be right, but Judge isn't telling us. Hell we just saw Drew Brees make several bad reads toward the end of the game Sunday night. We saw Ben Roethlisberger throw 4 picks in a game. That is 40 year experience in two HoF bound QBs that made mis-reads.

He may be Dan Mediocrity for all I know. But how do we, the general fan, get a true read when the guy is sacked 3 or 4 times a game and is under pressure 50%+ of his drop backs?; when his most explosive player causes 6 INTs on tipped passes?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones is a tough comp  
Saquads26 : 1/19/2021 1:55 pm : link
In comment 15127963 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15127957 Saquads26 said:


Quote:


In comment 15127940 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15127848 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15127843 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15127834 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


He is fast but not elusive at all. He is accurate but lacks a great arm. He has good size but fumbles too much. Alex Smith?



He is not accurate.

You should look at tight window throws in his short career. We disagree.



You should look at completion pct, y/a and y/c. He is abysmal by those metrics. You think he is accurate because he occasionally throws a nice looking ball. The stats are clear.. he is not accurate.



You think Lamar is good. Case closed



Lamar Jackson won an MVP in this league and has two consecutive playoff appearances. In an off year he was 7th in QBR and 11th in QB Rate. He is at least "good". You keep shooting your mouth off about Jones, he doesn't compare favorably to Lamar in almost any facet of the game. There isn't a single observer outside of this board and maybe Gettleman who would take Jones over Lamar.


LOL Lamar is one of the worst QBs in the league.
RE: I wonder..  
Josh in the City : 1/19/2021 2:00 pm : link
In comment 15127939 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
how many people here knew that Josh Allen didn't have a single 300 yard passing day last season.

And I say that not to point to comparisons, but we hear time and again that Jones has such an anemic output of yards and TD's that he can't get better. Even though the year prior, he had both yards and TD's.

he can improve on those numbers. And I think he surely will

Why is it so difficult for people to understand that it's not about stats when it comes to QB play. Josh Allen willed his team to victory many times last season even if he didn't have a "300 yd passing game." He was a very good player last year and he continued to improve and make that jump this year. When you look at our situation, DJ didn't improve much (if at all) this year. It's imperative that we put real weapons around him going into next season so we can accurately evaluate whether he is our QB of the future or it's time to cut bait.
RE: RE: Jones is a 62% passer..  
Go Terps : 1/19/2021 2:19 pm : link
In comment 15128010 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15127998 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


on a team where the WR's cannot get separation.

Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.



Why can't the wide receivers get separation?


Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?
RE: RE: Separation  
Thegratefulhead : 1/19/2021 2:20 pm : link
In comment 15128000 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15127978 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


When you account for the fact that he has the worst separation in the NFL to throw to and his tight window throws are among the top in the league, considering his completion percentage in the context of receiver separation, the picture of accuracy should become clearer.



I am beyond tired of the separation excuse. Tight window metrics don't trump comp pct or other objective metrics. But even if I accept it as a reliable stat you have to deal with the flip side. PFF (who rank Jones the 24th best QB in 2020 which sounds about right but his absolute ceiling this season) acknowledged Jones was above average in tight windows but he was below league average when his receiver had a step or more. BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE throwing to open receivers. I look forward to you excuse for that one as you continue to baby our adult QB who has yet to impress statistically. Link below. Jones final 2020 PFF eval - ( New Window )
I am not one of the people that "loves" Jones. Had we finished with a poor enough record, I would have supported drafting a QB. That said, I can play the position and I can still really throw it at 52. Jones is a very accurate passer. I think Jones' weaknesses are:

Feel for the rush
Ball security
Decision making(where to throw)
Processing speed(too slow)

He has an adequate arm, neither a weakness nor a strength.

RE: I wonder..  
90.Cal : 1/19/2021 2:38 pm : link
In comment 15127939 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
how many people here knew that Josh Allen didn't have a single 300 yard passing day last season.

And I say that not to point to comparisons, but we hear time and again that Jones has such an anemic output of yards and TD's that he can't get better. Even though the year prior, he had both yards and TD's.

he can improve on those numbers. And I think he surely will


I knew... and correction... Josh Allen didn't have one last year or the year before... then he blew up in year 3... but folks here ready to move on from DJ.
RE: RE: RE: Separation  
section125 : 1/19/2021 2:41 pm : link
In comment 15128046 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:

Feel for the rush
Ball security
Decision making(where to throw)
Processing speed(too slow)

He has an adequate arm, neither a weakness nor a strength.


Feel for rush - ok, give you that

Ball Security - vastly improved after he lost the Tampa game

Decision making - based on what? If so why? Is he stupid? Easily confused? Does he not understand football? Lack of experience?

Processing speed - based on what? If so why? Is this not the same as above? So either he is slow to read and it causes him to be indecisive or does he lack the confidence to believe what he reads and pull the trigger?
RE: RE: RE: Jones is a 62% passer..  
90.Cal : 1/19/2021 2:44 pm : link
In comment 15128044 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15128010 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15127998 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


on a team where the WR's cannot get separation.

Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.



Why can't the wide receivers get separation?



Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?


Because they aren't very good... isn't that obvious?
RE: RE: RE: Jones is a 62% passer..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/19/2021 2:50 pm : link
In comment 15128044 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15128010 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15127998 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


on a team where the WR's cannot get separation.

Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.



Why can't the wide receivers get separation?



Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?


You're really waiting for an answer?? It is because none of our skill players represent an obvious mismatch. The best route runner is Shepard. The rest have been blanketed when thrown to.

Please tell me you aren't pinning their lack of separation on Jones.
Jones needs to have a productive year in 2021.  
The_Boss : 1/19/2021 2:51 pm : link
Throw for 3500-4000 yards with a TD:Turnover ratio better than what it has been. And he needs to be clutch with the game on the line. I don’t think that’s being overly harsh with my expectations for someone the organization wants to be the franchise QB it needs. It’s year 3: Shit or get off the pot.
RE: Jones needs to have a productive year in 2021.  
section125 : 1/19/2021 2:54 pm : link
In comment 15128075 The_Boss said:
Quote:
Throw for 3500-4000 yards with a TD:Turnover ratio better than what it has been. And he needs to be clutch with the game on the line. I don’t think that’s being overly harsh with my expectations for someone the organization wants to be the franchise QB it needs. It’s year 3: Shit or get off the pot.


I do not disagree. It will be time to shit or get off the pot.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones is a 62% passer..  
Go Terps : 1/19/2021 2:55 pm : link
In comment 15128067 90.Cal said:
Quote:
In comment 15128044 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15128010 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15127998 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


on a team where the WR's cannot get separation.

Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.



Why can't the wide receivers get separation?



Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?



Because they aren't very good... isn't that obvious?


Two of the top three wide receivers were given contracts by this GM. The other was drafted by this GM. Why should we trust that he'll make good decisions there now?

Further, the offensive coordinator who couldn't scheme these receivers open will be back. Why should we trust that he'll do a better job now?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones is a 62% passer..  
Go Terps : 1/19/2021 2:57 pm : link
In comment 15128073 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15128044 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15128010 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15127998 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


on a team where the WR's cannot get separation.

Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.



Why can't the wide receivers get separation?



Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?



You're really waiting for an answer?? It is because none of our skill players represent an obvious mismatch. The best route runner is Shepard. The rest have been blanketed when thrown to.

Please tell me you aren't pinning their lack of separation on Jones.


No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.

I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.
RE: Jones needs to have a productive year in 2021.  
UConn4523 : 1/19/2021 3:00 pm : link
In comment 15128075 The_Boss said:
Quote:
Throw for 3500-4000 yards with a TD:Turnover ratio better than what it has been. And he needs to be clutch with the game on the line. I don’t think that’s being overly harsh with my expectations for someone the organization wants to be the franchise QB it needs. It’s year 3: Shit or get off the pot.


That's where I am. Would have liked to seen what he could do once it seemed like he took a turn, but the injury messed that up.

If he doesn't make big strides year 3 then its time to move on. Curious to see who's brought in as I suspect Judge won't give him a 16 game leash either.
I think WR separation in the NFL  
Dnew15 : 1/19/2021 3:11 pm : link
has become the biggest fraud stat in football analytics.

There is little-to-no correlation between that WR separation stat and WR production.

Can we get to a point where we can agree not use this as a metric to evaluate WRs in the NFL?

It's stupid.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones is a 62% passer..  
Dnew15 : 1/19/2021 3:16 pm : link
In comment 15128084 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15128073 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 15128044 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15128010 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15127998 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


on a team where the WR's cannot get separation.

Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.



Why can't the wide receivers get separation?



Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?



You're really waiting for an answer?? It is because none of our skill players represent an obvious mismatch. The best route runner is Shepard. The rest have been blanketed when thrown to.

Please tell me you aren't pinning their lack of separation on Jones.



No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.

I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.


Technically you can partially put it on Jones b/c when the stat is calculated, it's only calculated when the receiver is targeted.

SO - if DJ continually targets Darius Slayton on the slant while he's blanketed over and over again then Slayton's separation stat suffers.

Meanwhile, Dion Lewis gets no credit for being wide open after running past his guy b/c DJ didn't go through his reads and hit him.

So yes -the QB does impact the WR separation stats.

Which is why it's a dumb stat to begin with.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones is a 62% passer..  
bw in dc : 1/19/2021 3:32 pm : link
In comment 15128084 Go Terps said:
Quote:

No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.

I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.


Really? Your giving Jones a pass on not throwing receivers open/missing reads? I think it's hard to smooth out separation stats to get an even baseline.

There is scheme, quality of corners, etc...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones is a 62% passer..  
Go Terps : 1/19/2021 3:37 pm : link
In comment 15128108 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15128084 Go Terps said:


Quote:



No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.

I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.



Really? Your giving Jones a pass on not throwing receivers open/missing reads? I think it's hard to smooth out separation stats to get an even baseline.

There is scheme, quality of corners, etc...


I'm not giving him a pass. I'm saying there are multiple levels of suck to the Giants offense:

Coaching (Garrett)
Execution (Jones)
Talent acquisition and evaluation (Gettleman)

The suck runs so deep it's hard to tell where one level ends and the other begins.

But hey, let's run it all back!
By the way..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/19/2021 4:09 pm : link
another thread that didn't have anything to do with Jones that became about Jones.

I wonder why?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones is a 62% passer..  
bw in dc : 1/19/2021 4:12 pm : link
In comment 15128115 Go Terps said:
Quote:


I'm not giving him a pass. I'm saying there are multiple levels of suck to the Giants offense:

Coaching (Garrett)
Execution (Jones)
Talent acquisition and evaluation (Gettleman)

The suck runs so deep it's hard to tell where one level ends and the other begins.

But hey, let's run it all back!


It really is a head-scratcher with the "run it back" strategy by Mara.

He stands up there a few weeks ago for the virtual "State of the Team" address and asks the fans to "trust" him one more time (again) that the right pieces are in place EVERYWHERE and big things are right around the corner...

And so many get in line with their empty glasses asking to have their refill of the Kool-Aid.

RE: By the way..  
Go Terps : 1/19/2021 4:13 pm : link
In comment 15128160 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
another thread that didn't have anything to do with Jones that became about Jones.

I wonder why?


I'm guessing it's because this time of year highlights what it takes to win in the NFL, and shines a light on how the Giants are failing to arrive at that standard.

This time of year has grown to be depressing for Giants fans.
LoL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/19/2021 4:15 pm : link
"this time of year" basically means every fucking day for some of you negative schmucks.
RE: LoL..  
Go Terps : 1/19/2021 4:20 pm : link
In comment 15128167 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
"this time of year" basically means every fucking day for some of you negative schmucks.


Did the Giants go 10-6 and I missed something? Are they coming off a 33-15 three year stretch?

When the ownership stops trying to sell us dogshit, we'll stop calling it dogshit.

You didn't really answer my question before. Why don't the receivers get separation?
How was his talent evaluation on Bradberry & Martinez?  
90.Cal : 1/19/2021 4:28 pm : link
Let's kill him because he slightly over paid for Shepard and Tate...

Seems odd
DJ misses one guy thats the check down on the backside of a play  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/19/2021 4:28 pm : link
that people see at home and now he's missing reads all over the place. I really don't think anyone watches the rest of the NFL. Good QBs miss reads every week as well as throws, it's the amount that makes the differnce. The problem with our offense, is that its highlighted so much because the amount of plays even there to be had or some of the lowest in the league and is directly attributable to a line that can't pass block and pass catchers as a whole are bottom 5.
Maybe we can bring Reese back  
90.Cal : 1/19/2021 4:29 pm : link
Just to make all WR related decisions...
RE: RE: RE: RE: Separation  
Thegratefulhead : 1/19/2021 4:34 pm : link
In comment 15128064 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15128046 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:



Feel for the rush
Ball security
Decision making(where to throw)
Processing speed(too slow)

He has an adequate arm, neither a weakness nor a strength.




Feel for rush - ok, give you that

Ball Security - vastly improved after he lost the Tampa game

Decision making - based on what? If so why? Is he stupid? Easily confused? Does he not understand football? Lack of experience?

Processing speed - based on what? If so why? Is this not the same as above? So either he is slow to read and it causes him to be indecisive or does he lack the confidence to believe what he reads and pull the trigger?
I am not in his film sessions and don't know what was called. OK? My observations comes from re-watching some games and he doesn't even look in the direction of some wide open plays. He has left multiple touchdowns on the field. I am not interested in attempting to "win" a debate on BBI to spend the time compiling and creating videos. In short I would say my opinion is not far from Sy56 if you read his scouting report on Jones and have read his game reviews during the year. As for decision speed, sometimes, he pats the ball and does not move on to the next read. NFL stands for "not for long" in more ways than one. In most cases, he has to get rid of the ball in less than 3 seconds.

Fourth year junior entry. A three year starter and two time team captain. Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often. However, there were constant red flags in his tape that are hard to ignore. He didn’t see things well and his decisions were too inconsistent. There just seemed to be a lack of a true feel for the pocket, the defense, and angles. Jones checks a lot of boxes but there is a lot of gamble in the team that takes him even though he comes across as a “safe” bet to some.

*I wanted to like Jones more than this, I really did. I have a thing for tough quarterbacks and I do think he brought his teammates to another level. That’s a trend that can really make a kid break out in the NFL. While I do have a 1st round grade on him and I do think he can be in play at 17 because of the position he plays, I think NYG may need to steer clear here. Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based. After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.

NFL Comparison: Ryan Tannehill / TEN
Go Terps  
Thunderstruck27 : 1/19/2021 4:43 pm : link
I'm not exactly disagreeing with you here...but let's be honest, this offense was 100% built with the idea that Barkley was going to be featured. I won't argue that it has failed when he was in...but to think it would be successful without him is ignorant.
Tate was acquired because of his physical play. Unfortunately, hindsight has proved that his past success was probably based on PED's. Is that DG's fault or Tate's?
Shepard's contract is probably DG's biggest indictment. Again, since he's thought of as a decent blocking WR he got a contract way too big for what he brings to the team.
Slayton was a great draft pick, but is definitely overrated on this board.
Do I even need to get into how little Engram brings to the team? He should have been traded for anything of value last year.
Again, I'm not trying to justify anything here. Just trying to give insight on what DG might have been thinking. As soon as Barkley got hurt, this offense was doomed.
Most teams on both sides of the ball have a positional player that the  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/19/2021 4:47 pm : link
absolutely can't afford to miss extended time because of being absolute difference makers with little behind them.

If some fans can't realize that some of us are more optimistic because the offense was brutal when it has a good run blocking line, poor pass blocking line, an 11th man in the run game, and shitty inconsistent pass catchers and the key piece of that puzzle went down. Even with those factors, I'm confident this would have at least looked like a competent offense.

Desean Watson is a very good QB and he still put up stats. This is because they have a very deep pool of pass catchers and one of the better pass blocking lines in the league. Everything else sucked though and hence the record.
Thunderstruck  
Go Terps : 1/19/2021 4:47 pm : link
Who made the decision to build the offense around Barkley?

Something else to consider: Barkley's been a Giant for 3 years. The offense sucked all 3 seasons.
RE: LoL..  
bw in dc : 1/19/2021 4:48 pm : link
In comment 15128167 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
"this time of year" basically means every fucking day for some of you negative schmucks.


RE: Thunderstruck  
Thunderstruck27 : 1/19/2021 5:05 pm : link
In comment 15128210 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Who made the decision to build the offense around Barkley?

Something else to consider: Barkley's been a Giant for 3 years. The offense sucked all 3 seasons.


You're not wrong. It's on DG. This is 100% the year he is going to have to put up or shut up. There is no excuse not to build around the QB. Honestly, if Barkley was so good, we shouldn't have had to build an offense around a RB.
2021 will be the year we move on from DG and possibly Jones and Barkley if there isn't a marked improvement.
RE: RE: Thunderstruck  
Go Terps : 1/19/2021 5:10 pm : link
In comment 15128231 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
In comment 15128210 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Who made the decision to build the offense around Barkley?

Something else to consider: Barkley's been a Giant for 3 years. The offense sucked all 3 seasons.



You're not wrong. It's on DG. This is 100% the year he is going to have to put up or shut up. There is no excuse not to build around the QB. Honestly, if Barkley was so good, we shouldn't have had to build an offense around a RB.
2021 will be the year we move on from DG and possibly Jones and Barkley if there isn't a marked improvement.


Why wait that long? Why throw away another season?
I couldn't tell you why...  
Thunderstruck27 : 1/19/2021 5:57 pm : link
Honestly, it starts with Mara. If you blame this all on DG I think you are forgetting where it all starts. We were really bad long before DG got here.
RE: I couldn't tell you why...  
Go Terps : 1/19/2021 6:04 pm : link
In comment 15128293 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
Honestly, it starts with Mara. If you blame this all on DG I think you are forgetting where it all starts. We were really bad long before DG got here.


I agree a trillion percent. I think we have a major ownership problem.
RE: I couldn't tell you why...  
Saquads26 : 1/19/2021 6:41 pm : link
In comment 15128293 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
Honestly, it starts with Mara. If you blame this all on DG I think you are forgetting where it all starts. We were really bad long before DG got here.


I've been saying this for months and it's always overlooked. The game passed Mara by a long time ago. Unfortunately he will never sell.
I’m not ready to go there with Mara..  
Sean : 1/19/2021 6:44 pm : link
You can say he’s too loyal, but I don’t think he’s an awful owner. He’s made some poor decisions, but I’m not so sure I’d take any owner over him in the division.

Lurie is dealing with a mountain of issues right now and based on reports he is heavily involved in day to day football operations. He seems to meddle quite a bit. I don’t think the 2005-2012 stretch can be dismissed when analyzing John Mara as an owner.
RE: I’m not ready to go there with Mara..  
Thunderstruck27 : 1/19/2021 6:53 pm : link
In comment 15128332 Sean said:
Quote:
You can say he’s too loyal, but I don’t think he’s an awful owner. He’s made some poor decisions, but I’m not so sure I’d take any owner over him in the division.

Lurie is dealing with a mountain of issues right now and based on reports he is heavily involved in day to day football operations. He seems to meddle quite a bit. I don’t think the 2005-2012 stretch can be dismissed when analyzing John Mara as an owner.


Loyal to who? You do know what title Chris Mara holds. Would that turd have a job if it wasn't for daddy? Personnel has been the #1 problem on this team since the last few years of Reese's tenure.
RE: I’m not ready to go there with Mara..  
Go Terps : 1/19/2021 7:12 pm : link
In comment 15128332 Sean said:
Quote:
You can say he’s too loyal, but I don’t think he’s an awful owner. He’s made some poor decisions, but I’m not so sure I’d take any owner over him in the division.

Lurie is dealing with a mountain of issues right now and based on reports he is heavily involved in day to day football operations. He seems to meddle quite a bit. I don’t think the 2005-2012 stretch can be dismissed when analyzing John Mara as an owner.


I wonder if that era benefited from the previous structure. It was Wellington that hired Coughlin, and Accorsi that drafted Eli. I consider the peak to be 2008...that was the best football that era had to offer. They got a title on the way up and another on the way down. Fantastic.

But when it broke down, John hasn't shown himself able to build it back up on his own.

Thunderstruck & Terps..  
Sean : 1/19/2021 7:17 pm : link
Both of your arguments are valid. I’m talking as a fan and probably being overly hopeful. But, I think hiring the right coach is a big factor in turning it around. I hope Judge’s influence spreads through the building.

Lombardi made a good point about the NFC East earlier this year. It used to be about the coaches: Parcells, Landry & Gibbs. Now it is about the owners. All of the owners in this division have been poor.
RE: I’m not ready to go there with Mara..  
bw in dc : 1/19/2021 7:17 pm : link
In comment 15128332 Sean said:
Quote:
You can say he’s too loyal, but I don’t think he’s an awful owner. He’s made some poor decisions, but I’m not so sure I’d take any owner over him in the division.

Lurie is dealing with a mountain of issues right now and based on reports he is heavily involved in day to day football operations. He seems to meddle quite a bit. I don’t think the 2005-2012 stretch can be dismissed when analyzing John Mara as an owner.


Have you been to MetLife, btw? I think it is one of - if not the - worst new facilities in the NFL.

So for the last decade Mara has been hiring (or keeping) the wrong people to build bad teams for the fans to watch in bland new stadium.

And he continues to ask the fan base to "trust" him.

So why should we, again?



...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/19/2021 7:20 pm : link
I'm not the biggest John fan in the world, nor was I enamored with his old man. The 'meaningful December football games' manta is so F'ing weak. The Maras come across as good, decent people, but their football/decision acumen is up for debate. And I think John, like Wellington, is loyal to a fault, which I get to a point-I too was sentimental about Eli-but it can hamstrung an organization if it goes to the extreme.

Regardless, playoffs or bust in 2021. Jones has to take a big, big step forward. If not, time to go shopping for another QB. I have faith in Judge as a HC & Gettleman did have an impressive offseason last year, but it's time for results.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/19/2021 7:22 pm : link
The thing that worries me re. NFC East owners is Stephen Jones. He seems to know what he's doing & I'm assuming he's Jerry's heir.
bw..  
Sean : 1/19/2021 7:25 pm : link
Yes, I’ve been to MetLife. I actually am the wrong guy to ask about that because I don’t mind it. I wish the blue lighting was more prominent on the outside, but the facility itself is fine. It could definitely use more bells and whistles. If it were up to me, they should have just renovated Giants Stadium. I miss that place.

I don’t view Mara as a meddling owner. I think he meddled at the end of Eli, but I’m not going to pound him for that. Do I trust him? Idk - it will come down to how well Judge can coach and what his influence is. That’s the hope in this getting turned around.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/19/2021 7:28 pm : link
I went to Metlife in December 2018 for Giants Bears. It's an eyesore. And I too miss Giants Stadium.
RE: ...  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/19/2021 7:51 pm : link
In comment 15128376 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
The thing that worries me re. NFC East owners is Stephen Jones. He seems to know what he's doing & I'm assuming he's Jerry's heir.


Stephen Jones is essentially the one in control of football operations now. Seems to know what he's doing, but let's see how he does when he doesn't have a 4th round QB giving him above average QB play. The defense was abysmal this year and they are tops in the league of highest paid players. The difference between them and the Rams though is the guys they paid suck and part of that is their devaluation of "character" guys. He certainly knows what he's doing, but its also possible he's merely competent and since he's part of ownership he doesn't relinquish power.
Scary thought  
Go Terps : 1/19/2021 7:55 pm : link
If Judge didn't ace the interview, or if he took the Mississippi State job, who's the head coach?

Almost certainly Jason Garrett, right?
RE: Scary thought  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/19/2021 7:59 pm : link
In comment 15128397 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If Judge didn't ace the interview, or if he took the Mississippi State job, who's the head coach?

Almost certainly Jason Garrett, right?


I heard a podcast the other night that the Ravens DC-Martindale?-wowed the Giants too so perhaps him?
RE: Scary thought  
Sean : 1/19/2021 8:06 pm : link
In comment 15128397 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If Judge didn't ace the interview, or if he took the Mississippi State job, who's the head coach?

Almost certainly Jason Garrett, right?


Martindale. From multiple sources he was the guy - Schrager & Lombardi both stated that.
RE: RE: Scary thought  
Go Terps : 1/19/2021 8:07 pm : link
In comment 15128404 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 15128397 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If Judge didn't ace the interview, or if he took the Mississippi State job, who's the head coach?

Almost certainly Jason Garrett, right?



Martindale. From multiple sources he was the guy - Schrager & Lombardi both stated that.


I hadn't heard that. That's a relief, at least.
Sean.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/19/2021 8:09 pm : link
Good call. I think that was Simmons with Scharger? My ears perked up.
RE: Sean.  
Sean : 1/19/2021 8:13 pm : link
In comment 15128406 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Good call. I think that was Simmons with Scharger? My ears perked up.


Yup, that was the podcast. Martindale apparently blew the Giants away in his interview, but Judge more so.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones is a 62% passer..  
GiantsFan84 : 1/19/2021 8:15 pm : link
In comment 15128115 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15128108 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15128084 Go Terps said:


Quote:



No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.

I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.



Really? Your giving Jones a pass on not throwing receivers open/missing reads? I think it's hard to smooth out separation stats to get an even baseline.

There is scheme, quality of corners, etc...



I'm not giving him a pass. I'm saying there are multiple levels of suck to the Giants offense:

Coaching (Garrett)
Execution (Jones)
Talent acquisition and evaluation (Gettleman)

The suck runs so deep it's hard to tell where one level ends and the other begins.

But hey, let's run it all back!


this x 1000
RE: Thunderstruck & Terps..  
Thunderstruck27 : 1/19/2021 9:02 pm : link
In comment 15128368 Sean said:
Quote:
Both of your arguments are valid. I’m talking as a fan and probably being overly hopeful. But, I think hiring the right coach is a big factor in turning it around. I hope Judge’s influence spreads through the building.

Lombardi made a good point about the NFC East earlier this year. It used to be about the coaches: Parcells, Landry & Gibbs. Now it is about the owners. All of the owners in this division have been poor.


Interesting point about how the balance of power leaning toward the owners. Decisions like how long to hold on to Eli for the Giants and Snyder apparently forcing the Haskins pick in the draft show signs of the dumb things we used to make fun of the Cowboys for after Jerry fired Jimmy Johnson.
I'm with you on the holding out hope for Judge. The guy seems to make good fundamental football decisions. Hard to argue with a lot of his choices. Time will tell.
It’s hilarious  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 1/19/2021 9:29 pm : link
How Daniel Jones is the convo. Brady (probable GOAT), Rodgers (Insane level passer, 3 MVPs to Brees’ 0), Mahomes (future GOAT candidate trajectory), Allen (baaad man, carrying the Franchise on his back and possibly could be the new Elway in some eyes).

Those are the dudes who are contending for a Super Bowl. Can Daniel Jones be one of them? Very likely NOT unless the rest of the team improves greatly.

Daniel Jones is a predicament. Is it coaching? Is it the GM/FO? He regressed hard in his 2nd year which is where the Josh Allen comps fall apart. Can he be THAT guy as oppposed to a Kirk Cousins level “guy”? I’m leaning heavily towards no at this point. I hope he puts it together but if we give him year 3 and he’s another Trubisky, this team is looking for someone else. Jones, from Duke, was supposed to be a smart QB. The fact that he has struggled with QB IQ makes me lean towards looking for a better option if the Giants can land someone who qualifies. Especially since he’s not great in terms of physical talent/potential (like a Josh Allen).
Terps  
Tuckrule : 1/20/2021 6:47 am : link
Take a look at jones last seaso and jones this year. Purely throwing the football. Totally different schemes and jones has looked great in Shurmur and solid in garrets. Garrets offense stinks. He needs an elite tight end, which we don’t have. He needs a feature back, who was hurt. He needs big bodied WRs to move the chains, which we don’t have.

Jones improved by numbers and eye test. Move away from the TD numbers for a second because those are situational partly( davante Adam’s I believe has scored 9 touchdowns inside the 5 yard. That’s largely scheme based and play calling. Most teams would have run the ball more removing about 7 touchdowns from Adam’s total. Jones was able to improve his fumbling and ints. He was playing smarter football. It’s clear as day he’s the goods. He needs to be in an offense that is more geared to his skill set which IMO is more back shoulder throws. More seams. More deep crosses. This dink and dunk Garret system is hurting jones progress. Now, I pause and think to myself, okay Garret lost saquon right off the bat. His entire game plan probably tossed upside down. Secondly dealing with a crap line until judge took over probably made Garret go to a quick passing game. Quick hitters aren’t how you win In the nfl. You need chunk plays plain and simple. Adding a legit big bodied WR to this exact team would turn things around for jones and the offense. I’d take a strong look at Arob or Golladay and highly consider drafting slater at 11. Worse case he kicks into right guard and he’s an all pro. I feel that strongly about him.
RE: Terps  
Producer : 1/20/2021 7:08 am : link
In comment 15128626 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
Take a look at jones last seaso and jones this year. Purely throwing the football. Totally different schemes and jones has looked great in Shurmur and solid in garrets. Garrets offense stinks. He needs an elite tight end, which we don’t have. He needs a feature back, who was hurt. He needs big bodied WRs to move the chains, which we don’t have.

Jones improved by numbers and eye test. Move away from the TD numbers for a second because those are situational partly( davante Adam’s I believe has scored 9 touchdowns inside the 5 yard. That’s largely scheme based and play calling. Most teams would have run the ball more removing about 7 touchdowns from Adam’s total. Jones was able to improve his fumbling and ints. He was playing smarter football. It’s clear as day he’s the goods. He needs to be in an offense that is more geared to his skill set which IMO is more back shoulder throws. More seams. More deep crosses. This dink and dunk Garret system is hurting jones progress. Now, I pause and think to myself, okay Garret lost saquon right off the bat. His entire game plan probably tossed upside down. Secondly dealing with a crap line until judge took over probably made Garret go to a quick passing game. Quick hitters aren’t how you win In the nfl. You need chunk plays plain and simple. Adding a legit big bodied WR to this exact team would turn things around for jones and the offense. I’d take a strong look at Arob or Golladay and highly consider drafting slater at 11. Worse case he kicks into right guard and he’s an all pro. I feel that strongly about him.


Jones failed both the eye test and statistically in 2020. He did nothing this season to show "he's the goods".
Producer  
Tuckrule : 1/20/2021 8:59 am : link
If he failed the eye test I’d suggest watching a new sports. 7 int when throwing to Engram. Just let that sink in. He was the NUMBER 1 TARGETED PLAYER FOR JONES THIS YEAR. 57 percent catch rate on 109 targets. That is atrocious. It’s unheard of actually. Not to mention he had a bottom 2 offensive line.

Some fans like to see what they want. Put Justin Herbert on the giants. He’s doing absolutely nothing and that’s coming from a guy that loved Herbert in college. The reality of the situation is poor talent. Poor line play. Bad WRs. Simple route concepts by Garret. Give jones a true 1 WR. Make Engram at best the 4th option behind a true 1, sterling Shepard and Barkley. If Engram is the focal point of the offense your offense is garbage regardless of the QB situation.
I know..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/20/2021 9:10 am : link
the crowd bashing Jones likes to call these excuses, but even this point right here was fairly damning:

Quote:
Producer
Tuckrule : 8:59 am : link : reply
If he failed the eye test I’d suggest watching a new sports. 7 int when throwing to Engram. Just let that sink in. He was the NUMBER 1 TARGETED PLAYER FOR JONES THIS YEAR. 57 percent catch rate on 109 targets. That is atrocious. It’s unheard of actually. Not to mention he had a bottom 2 offensive line.


More than half of Jones' INT's came on targets to Engram, and on those picks, all but one of the passes were tipped. The other one, Engram slipped and fell.

Now you'll hear, BUT HE ONLY THREW 12 TD'S!! And they'll scream it frequently. But ask them who the red zone target was. Ask them if you really wanted the ball going to Engram and his ridiculously low catch % in the end zone.
RE: I know..  
Big Blue '56 : 1/20/2021 9:16 am : link
In comment 15128688 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the crowd bashing Jones likes to call these excuses, but even this point right here was fairly damning:



Quote:


Producer
Tuckrule : 8:59 am : link : reply
If he failed the eye test I’d suggest watching a new sports. 7 int when throwing to Engram. Just let that sink in. He was the NUMBER 1 TARGETED PLAYER FOR JONES THIS YEAR. 57 percent catch rate on 109 targets. That is atrocious. It’s unheard of actually. Not to mention he had a bottom 2 offensive line.



More than half of Jones' INT's came on targets to Engram, and on those picks, all but one of the passes were tipped. The other one, Engram slipped and fell.

Now you'll hear, BUT HE ONLY THREW 12 TD'S!! And they'll scream it frequently. But ask them who the red zone target was. Ask them if you really wanted the ball going to Engram and his ridiculously low catch % in the end zone.


Imv? The majority of us know this. Mitigating circumstances have always been part and parcel of true objectivity, I believe
RE: Producer  
Saquads26 : 1/20/2021 9:20 am : link
In comment 15128677 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
If he failed the eye test I’d suggest watching a new sports. 7 int when throwing to Engram. Just let that sink in. He was the NUMBER 1 TARGETED PLAYER FOR JONES THIS YEAR. 57 percent catch rate on 109 targets. That is atrocious. It’s unheard of actually. Not to mention he had a bottom 2 offensive line.

Some fans like to see what they want. Put Justin Herbert on the giants. He’s doing absolutely nothing and that’s coming from a guy that loved Herbert in college. The reality of the situation is poor talent. Poor line play. Bad WRs. Simple route concepts by Garret. Give jones a true 1 WR. Make Engram at best the 4th option behind a true 1, sterling Shepard and Barkley. If Engram is the focal point of the offense your offense is garbage regardless of the QB situation.


I'm pretty sure Jones banged Producers mom and sister. Or it's Terps dupe.
56  
Tuckrule : 1/20/2021 9:32 am : link
Your right. The educated posters on this site, Some have commented directly above this, know the game and understand what they see. Others, who obsess over fantasy football, focus on touchdowns numbers ints just disregard the total lack of talent that jones has. What we are saying, 56, fmic, saquads should be obvious to all but it isn’t.
RE: 56  
Big Blue '56 : 1/20/2021 9:39 am : link
In comment 15128715 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
Your right. The educated posters on this site, Some have commented directly above this, know the game and understand what they see. Others, who obsess over fantasy football, focus on touchdowns numbers ints just disregard the total lack of talent that jones has. What we are saying, 56, fmic, saquads should be obvious to all but it isn’t.


Let’s hope we’re right, buddy..:)
RE: Terps  
Go Terps : 1/20/2021 10:22 am : link
In comment 15128626 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
Take a look at jones last seaso and jones this year. Purely throwing the football. Totally different schemes and jones has looked great in Shurmur and solid in garrets. Garrets offense stinks. He needs an elite tight end, which we don’t have. He needs a feature back, who was hurt. He needs big bodied WRs to move the chains, which we don’t have.

Jones improved by numbers and eye test. Move away from the TD numbers for a second because those are situational partly( davante Adam’s I believe has scored 9 touchdowns inside the 5 yard. That’s largely scheme based and play calling. Most teams would have run the ball more removing about 7 touchdowns from Adam’s total. Jones was able to improve his fumbling and ints. He was playing smarter football. It’s clear as day he’s the goods. He needs to be in an offense that is more geared to his skill set which IMO is more back shoulder throws. More seams. More deep crosses. This dink and dunk Garret system is hurting jones progress. Now, I pause and think to myself, okay Garret lost saquon right off the bat. His entire game plan probably tossed upside down. Secondly dealing with a crap line until judge took over probably made Garret go to a quick passing game. Quick hitters aren’t how you win In the nfl. You need chunk plays plain and simple. Adding a legit big bodied WR to this exact team would turn things around for jones and the offense. I’d take a strong look at Arob or Golladay and highly consider drafting slater at 11. Worse case he kicks into right guard and he’s an all pro. I feel that strongly about him.


This is one of those posts that makes me wonder if I'm living in the Matrix and there's a whole different world where Jones was not awful in 2020.
RE: I know..  
Greg from LI : 1/20/2021 10:36 am : link
In comment 15128688 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Now you'll hear, BUT HE ONLY THREW 12 TD'S!! And they'll scream it frequently


No you won't, because he only threw 11. And there's no way to sugarcoat how bad that is. Hell, that's what Dave Brown was doing 25 years ago in a much more difficult environment for passing, and let's not pretend that the 1995-96 Giants had any better skill players than Jones has. Chris Calloway, Thomas Lewis, the corpse of Mike Sherrard, Aaron Pierce, ol' stonehands Howard Cross.....
RE: Producer  
Producer : 1/20/2021 10:43 am : link
In comment 15128677 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
If he failed the eye test I’d suggest watching a new sports. 7 int when throwing to Engram. Just let that sink in. He was the NUMBER 1 TARGETED PLAYER FOR JONES THIS YEAR. 57 percent catch rate on 109 targets. That is atrocious. It’s unheard of actually. Not to mention he had a bottom 2 offensive line.

Some fans like to see what they want. Put Justin Herbert on the giants. He’s doing absolutely nothing and that’s coming from a guy that loved Herbert in college. The reality of the situation is poor talent. Poor line play. Bad WRs. Simple route concepts by Garret. Give jones a true 1 WR. Make Engram at best the 4th option behind a true 1, sterling Shepard and Barkley. If Engram is the focal point of the offense your offense is garbage regardless of the QB situation.


dude.. if you can't SEE the difference between Herbert and Jones as QB talents you have no clue what you are looking at. Cosell, for instance, has been blown away by Herbert. Herbert is a star with star QB traits. I can't even find an update by Cosell on jones, and i have been scouring the podcasts. My guess is it is because he doesn't think he is special, much less "has the goods". If I had to guess Cosell would say, some good things, some bad things, has to be more consistent if he is to be a competent QB.

Make no mistake... nobody with knowledge of QBs thinks Jones is in the same galaxy as Herbert as a talent. And I ask you, don't you want to have an elite QB talent for the Giants? Why are you opposed to that?
RE: RE: Producer  
Producer : 1/20/2021 10:45 am : link
In comment 15128698 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
In comment 15128677 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


If he failed the eye test I’d suggest watching a new sports. 7 int when throwing to Engram. Just let that sink in. He was the NUMBER 1 TARGETED PLAYER FOR JONES THIS YEAR. 57 percent catch rate on 109 targets. That is atrocious. It’s unheard of actually. Not to mention he had a bottom 2 offensive line.

Some fans like to see what they want. Put Justin Herbert on the giants. He’s doing absolutely nothing and that’s coming from a guy that loved Herbert in college. The reality of the situation is poor talent. Poor line play. Bad WRs. Simple route concepts by Garret. Give jones a true 1 WR. Make Engram at best the 4th option behind a true 1, sterling Shepard and Barkley. If Engram is the focal point of the offense your offense is garbage regardless of the QB situation.



I'm pretty sure Jones banged Producers mom and sister. Or it's Terps dupe.


I'd like to point out that you and FMiC routinely insult and curse people who are down on Jones. You should raise the level of your rhetoric. When you result to insults and random cursing it shows you have lost the argument.
RE: RE: Producer  
Saquads26 : 1/20/2021 10:46 am : link
In comment 15128837 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15128677 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


If he failed the eye test I’d suggest watching a new sports. 7 int when throwing to Engram. Just let that sink in. He was the NUMBER 1 TARGETED PLAYER FOR JONES THIS YEAR. 57 percent catch rate on 109 targets. That is atrocious. It’s unheard of actually. Not to mention he had a bottom 2 offensive line.

Some fans like to see what they want. Put Justin Herbert on the giants. He’s doing absolutely nothing and that’s coming from a guy that loved Herbert in college. The reality of the situation is poor talent. Poor line play. Bad WRs. Simple route concepts by Garret. Give jones a true 1 WR. Make Engram at best the 4th option behind a true 1, sterling Shepard and Barkley. If Engram is the focal point of the offense your offense is garbage regardless of the QB situation.



dude.. if you can't SEE the difference between Herbert and Jones as QB talents you have no clue what you are looking at. Cosell, for instance, has been blown away by Herbert. Herbert is a star with star QB traits. I can't even find an update by Cosell on jones, and i have been scouring the podcasts. My guess is it is because he doesn't think he is special, much less "has the goods". If I had to guess Cosell would say, some good things, some bad things, has to be more consistent if he is to be a competent QB.

Make no mistake... nobody with knowledge of QBs thinks Jones is in the same galaxy as Herbert as a talent. And I ask you, don't you want to have an elite QB talent for the Giants? Why are you opposed to that?


Triggered much? Take your morning meds
RE: RE: RE: Producer  
Saquads26 : 1/20/2021 10:48 am : link
In comment 15128839 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15128698 Saquads26 said:


Quote:


In comment 15128677 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


If he failed the eye test I’d suggest watching a new sports. 7 int when throwing to Engram. Just let that sink in. He was the NUMBER 1 TARGETED PLAYER FOR JONES THIS YEAR. 57 percent catch rate on 109 targets. That is atrocious. It’s unheard of actually. Not to mention he had a bottom 2 offensive line.

Some fans like to see what they want. Put Justin Herbert on the giants. He’s doing absolutely nothing and that’s coming from a guy that loved Herbert in college. The reality of the situation is poor talent. Poor line play. Bad WRs. Simple route concepts by Garret. Give jones a true 1 WR. Make Engram at best the 4th option behind a true 1, sterling Shepard and Barkley. If Engram is the focal point of the offense your offense is garbage regardless of the QB situation.



I'm pretty sure Jones banged Producers mom and sister. Or it's Terps dupe.



I'd like to point out that you and FMiC routinely insult and curse people who are down on Jones. You should raise the level of your rhetoric. When you result to insults and random cursing it shows you have lost the argument.


RE: RE: RE: Producer  
Producer : 1/20/2021 11:16 am : link
In comment 15128841 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
In comment 15128837 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15128677 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


If he failed the eye test I’d suggest watching a new sports. 7 int when throwing to Engram. Just let that sink in. He was the NUMBER 1 TARGETED PLAYER FOR JONES THIS YEAR. 57 percent catch rate on 109 targets. That is atrocious. It’s unheard of actually. Not to mention he had a bottom 2 offensive line.

Some fans like to see what they want. Put Justin Herbert on the giants. He’s doing absolutely nothing and that’s coming from a guy that loved Herbert in college. The reality of the situation is poor talent. Poor line play. Bad WRs. Simple route concepts by Garret. Give jones a true 1 WR. Make Engram at best the 4th option behind a true 1, sterling Shepard and Barkley. If Engram is the focal point of the offense your offense is garbage regardless of the QB situation.



dude.. if you can't SEE the difference between Herbert and Jones as QB talents you have no clue what you are looking at. Cosell, for instance, has been blown away by Herbert. Herbert is a star with star QB traits. I can't even find an update by Cosell on jones, and i have been scouring the podcasts. My guess is it is because he doesn't think he is special, much less "has the goods". If I had to guess Cosell would say, some good things, some bad things, has to be more consistent if he is to be a competent QB.

Make no mistake... nobody with knowledge of QBs thinks Jones is in the same galaxy as Herbert as a talent. And I ask you, don't you want to have an elite QB talent for the Giants? Why are you opposed to that?



Triggered much? Take your morning meds


I think you're the one who is triggered. I imagine today is a tough day for you.
Well, after reading these recent posts...  
bw in dc : 1/20/2021 11:21 am : link
I guess I need to go back and re-watch the entire season because apparently Jones had a terrific year in 2020.

RE: RE: I know..  
bw in dc : 1/20/2021 11:25 am : link
In comment 15128822 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 15128688 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Now you'll hear, BUT HE ONLY THREW 12 TD'S!! And they'll scream it frequently



No you won't, because he only threw 11. And there's no way to sugarcoat how bad that is. Hell, that's what Dave Brown was doing 25 years ago in a much more difficult environment for passing, and let's not pretend that the 1995-96 Giants had any better skill players than Jones has. Chris Calloway, Thomas Lewis, the corpse of Mike Sherrard, Aaron Pierce, ol' stonehands Howard Cross.....


Yes, it was only 11. But who's counting...

QBR takes into account dropped passes, interceptions caused by the receiver, poor protection, etc.

Despite all of those variables considered, Jones still only finished 21st in the league in QBR.

Hmmm.
RE: RE: RE: I know..  
LBH15 : 1/20/2021 11:32 am : link
In comment 15128878 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15128822 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 15128688 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Now you'll hear, BUT HE ONLY THREW 12 TD'S!! And they'll scream it frequently



No you won't, because he only threw 11. And there's no way to sugarcoat how bad that is. Hell, that's what Dave Brown was doing 25 years ago in a much more difficult environment for passing, and let's not pretend that the 1995-96 Giants had any better skill players than Jones has. Chris Calloway, Thomas Lewis, the corpse of Mike Sherrard, Aaron Pierce, ol' stonehands Howard Cross.....



Yes, it was only 11. But who's counting...

QBR takes into account dropped passes, interceptions caused by the receiver, poor protection, etc.

Despite all of those variables considered, Jones still only finished 21st in the league in QBR.

Hmmm.


Well, when you only throw 11 TDs adding one more to that small of a total in error is actually fairly material.
RE: RE: RE: I know..  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/20/2021 11:37 am : link
In comment 15128878 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15128822 Greg from LI said:






Yes, it was only 11. But who's counting...

QBR takes into account dropped passes, interceptions caused by the receiver, poor protection, etc.

Despite all of those variables considered, Jones still only finished 21st in the league in QBR.

Hmmm.


21st QBR isn't that bad when you consider that the offense couldn't create opportunities for passing TDs and he's a second year QB.

Josh Allen was 24th last year going by this metric. And this is why these metrics aren't the be all and ell. They are still situationally dependant.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Producer  
Saquads26 : 1/20/2021 12:27 pm : link
In comment 15128865 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15128841 Saquads26 said:


Quote:


In comment 15128837 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15128677 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


If he failed the eye test I’d suggest watching a new sports. 7 int when throwing to Engram. Just let that sink in. He was the NUMBER 1 TARGETED PLAYER FOR JONES THIS YEAR. 57 percent catch rate on 109 targets. That is atrocious. It’s unheard of actually. Not to mention he had a bottom 2 offensive line.

Some fans like to see what they want. Put Justin Herbert on the giants. He’s doing absolutely nothing and that’s coming from a guy that loved Herbert in college. The reality of the situation is poor talent. Poor line play. Bad WRs. Simple route concepts by Garret. Give jones a true 1 WR. Make Engram at best the 4th option behind a true 1, sterling Shepard and Barkley. If Engram is the focal point of the offense your offense is garbage regardless of the QB situation.



dude.. if you can't SEE the difference between Herbert and Jones as QB talents you have no clue what you are looking at. Cosell, for instance, has been blown away by Herbert. Herbert is a star with star QB traits. I can't even find an update by Cosell on jones, and i have been scouring the podcasts. My guess is it is because he doesn't think he is special, much less "has the goods". If I had to guess Cosell would say, some good things, some bad things, has to be more consistent if he is to be a competent QB.

Make no mistake... nobody with knowledge of QBs thinks Jones is in the same galaxy as Herbert as a talent. And I ask you, don't you want to have an elite QB talent for the Giants? Why are you opposed to that?



Triggered much? Take your morning meds



I think you're the one who is triggered. I imagine today is a tough day for you.


Best day I've had in 4 years!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Producer  
Producer : 1/20/2021 3:01 pm : link
In comment 15128961 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
In comment 15128865 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15128841 Saquads26 said:


Quote:


In comment 15128837 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15128677 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


If he failed the eye test I’d suggest watching a new sports. 7 int when throwing to Engram. Just let that sink in. He was the NUMBER 1 TARGETED PLAYER FOR JONES THIS YEAR. 57 percent catch rate on 109 targets. That is atrocious. It’s unheard of actually. Not to mention he had a bottom 2 offensive line.

Some fans like to see what they want. Put Justin Herbert on the giants. He’s doing absolutely nothing and that’s coming from a guy that loved Herbert in college. The reality of the situation is poor talent. Poor line play. Bad WRs. Simple route concepts by Garret. Give jones a true 1 WR. Make Engram at best the 4th option behind a true 1, sterling Shepard and Barkley. If Engram is the focal point of the offense your offense is garbage regardless of the QB situation.



dude.. if you can't SEE the difference between Herbert and Jones as QB talents you have no clue what you are looking at. Cosell, for instance, has been blown away by Herbert. Herbert is a star with star QB traits. I can't even find an update by Cosell on jones, and i have been scouring the podcasts. My guess is it is because he doesn't think he is special, much less "has the goods". If I had to guess Cosell would say, some good things, some bad things, has to be more consistent if he is to be a competent QB.

Make no mistake... nobody with knowledge of QBs thinks Jones is in the same galaxy as Herbert as a talent. And I ask you, don't you want to have an elite QB talent for the Giants? Why are you opposed to that?



Triggered much? Take your morning meds



I think you're the one who is triggered. I imagine today is a tough day for you.



Best day I've had in 4 years!


we agree on something ;) go Giants!

RE: Well, after reading these recent posts...  
lax counsel : 1/21/2021 12:32 pm : link
In comment 15128872 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I guess I need to go back and re-watch the entire season because apparently Jones had a terrific year in 2020.


Yes, its mind boggling. The rationalization gone through to spin Jones as actually having had a good season in 2020 and not being one of the 2 or 3 worst starting qbs in the sport is something to behold. I particularly like the Josh Allen argument, which conveniently ignores the fact that Allen improved between year 1 and 2 in the league whereas Jones fell off a proverbial cliff in year 2.

Jones will get weapons in the offseason, even if it means the Giants overpay to their detriment. Because we know one thing, the Giants brass is completely reactionary to - and might I add, misreads - fan sentiment. Its what led to them holding on Eli a year too long. It's what led them to panic drafting (i.e., Eli is DONE!!) a qb in the top 10 when most had the a 2nd round or lower grade on the prospect. No doubt they have heard the grumblings that Jones doesn't have enough weapons. So we'll see if Jones has any skills resembling a top 10 qb next year with his new toys.

I also find it amazing that we declare Jones has a bottom 2 or 3 oline (in addition to no weapons), but do not fault the person responsible for drafting assembling that line, to which valuable resources have been dedicated over the past 3 years. It really harkens back to the rank and file defending the Giants decisions at any cost. It couldn't have been the wrong decision, otherwise the Giants wouldn't have made it!
RE: I know..  
Ned In Atlanta : 1/21/2021 11:35 pm : link
In comment 15128688 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the crowd bashing Jones likes to call these excuses, but even this point right here was fairly damning:



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Producer
Tuckrule : 8:59 am : link : reply
If he failed the eye test I’d suggest watching a new sports. 7 int when throwing to Engram. Just let that sink in. He was the NUMBER 1 TARGETED PLAYER FOR JONES THIS YEAR. 57 percent catch rate on 109 targets. That is atrocious. It’s unheard of actually. Not to mention he had a bottom 2 offensive line.



More than half of Jones' INT's came on targets to Engram, and on those picks, all but one of the passes were tipped. The other one, Engram slipped and fell.

Now you'll hear, BUT HE ONLY THREW 12 TD'S!! And they'll scream it frequently. But ask them who the red zone target was. Ask them if you really wanted the ball going to Engram and his ridiculously low catch % in the end zone.



So the receiving corps that your guy Gettleman had three years to assemble is awful, right ? Hence DJs lackluster production?
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