Championship games, same as it ever was. As much as things change, they stay the same. Elite QB play still looks extremely important to advance to the Super Bowl.
When you account for the fact that he has the worst separation in the NFL to throw to and his tight window throws are among the top in the league, considering his completion percentage in the context of receiver separation, the picture of accuracy should become clearer.
I am beyond tired of the separation excuse. Tight window metrics don't trump comp pct or other objective metrics. But even if I accept it as a reliable stat you have to deal with the flip side. PFF (who rank Jones the 24th best QB in 2020 which sounds about right but his absolute ceiling this season) acknowledged Jones was above average in tight windows but he was below league average when his receiver had a step or more. BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE throwing to open receivers. I look forward to you excuse for that one as you continue to baby our adult QB who has yet to impress statistically. Link below. Jones final 2020 PFF eval - ( New Window )
I am not one of the people that "loves" Jones. Had we finished with a poor enough record, I would have supported drafting a QB. That said, I can play the position and I can still really throw it at 52. Jones is a very accurate passer. I think Jones' weaknesses are:
Feel for the rush
Ball security
Decision making(where to throw)
Processing speed(too slow)
He has an adequate arm, neither a weakness nor a strength.
how many people here knew that Josh Allen didn't have a single 300 yard passing day last season.
And I say that not to point to comparisons, but we hear time and again that Jones has such an anemic output of yards and TD's that he can't get better. Even though the year prior, he had both yards and TD's.
he can improve on those numbers. And I think he surely will
I knew... and correction... Josh Allen didn't have one last year or the year before... then he blew up in year 3... but folks here ready to move on from DJ.
Feel for the rush
Ball security
Decision making(where to throw)
Processing speed(too slow)
He has an adequate arm, neither a weakness nor a strength.
Feel for rush - ok, give you that
Ball Security - vastly improved after he lost the Tampa game
Decision making - based on what? If so why? Is he stupid? Easily confused? Does he not understand football? Lack of experience?
Processing speed - based on what? If so why? Is this not the same as above? So either he is slow to read and it causes him to be indecisive or does he lack the confidence to believe what he reads and pull the trigger?
Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.
Why can't the wide receivers get separation?
Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?
Because they aren't very good... isn't that obvious?
Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.
Why can't the wide receivers get separation?
Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?
You're really waiting for an answer?? It is because none of our skill players represent an obvious mismatch. The best route runner is Shepard. The rest have been blanketed when thrown to.
Please tell me you aren't pinning their lack of separation on Jones.
Throw for 3500-4000 yards with a TD:Turnover ratio better than what it has been. And he needs to be clutch with the game on the line. I don’t think that’s being overly harsh with my expectations for someone the organization wants to be the franchise QB it needs. It’s year 3: Shit or get off the pot.
RE: Jones needs to have a productive year in 2021.
Throw for 3500-4000 yards with a TD:Turnover ratio better than what it has been. And he needs to be clutch with the game on the line. I don’t think that’s being overly harsh with my expectations for someone the organization wants to be the franchise QB it needs. It’s year 3: Shit or get off the pot.
I do not disagree. It will be time to shit or get off the pot.
Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.
Why can't the wide receivers get separation?
Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?
Because they aren't very good... isn't that obvious?
Two of the top three wide receivers were given contracts by this GM. The other was drafted by this GM. Why should we trust that he'll make good decisions there now?
Further, the offensive coordinator who couldn't scheme these receivers open will be back. Why should we trust that he'll do a better job now?
Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.
Why can't the wide receivers get separation?
Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?
You're really waiting for an answer?? It is because none of our skill players represent an obvious mismatch. The best route runner is Shepard. The rest have been blanketed when thrown to.
Please tell me you aren't pinning their lack of separation on Jones.
No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.
I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.
RE: Jones needs to have a productive year in 2021.
Throw for 3500-4000 yards with a TD:Turnover ratio better than what it has been. And he needs to be clutch with the game on the line. I don’t think that’s being overly harsh with my expectations for someone the organization wants to be the franchise QB it needs. It’s year 3: Shit or get off the pot.
That's where I am. Would have liked to seen what he could do once it seemed like he took a turn, but the injury messed that up.
If he doesn't make big strides year 3 then its time to move on. Curious to see who's brought in as I suspect Judge won't give him a 16 game leash either.
Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.
Why can't the wide receivers get separation?
Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?
You're really waiting for an answer?? It is because none of our skill players represent an obvious mismatch. The best route runner is Shepard. The rest have been blanketed when thrown to.
Please tell me you aren't pinning their lack of separation on Jones.
No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.
I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.
Technically you can partially put it on Jones b/c when the stat is calculated, it's only calculated when the receiver is targeted.
SO - if DJ continually targets Darius Slayton on the slant while he's blanketed over and over again then Slayton's separation stat suffers.
Meanwhile, Dion Lewis gets no credit for being wide open after running past his guy b/c DJ didn't go through his reads and hit him.
So yes -the QB does impact the WR separation stats.
No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.
I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.
Really? Your giving Jones a pass on not throwing receivers open/missing reads? I think it's hard to smooth out separation stats to get an even baseline.
No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.
I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.
Really? Your giving Jones a pass on not throwing receivers open/missing reads? I think it's hard to smooth out separation stats to get an even baseline.
There is scheme, quality of corners, etc...
I'm not giving him a pass. I'm saying there are multiple levels of suck to the Giants offense:
Coaching (Garrett)
Execution (Jones)
Talent acquisition and evaluation (Gettleman)
The suck runs so deep it's hard to tell where one level ends and the other begins.
I'm not giving him a pass. I'm saying there are multiple levels of suck to the Giants offense:
Coaching (Garrett)
Execution (Jones)
Talent acquisition and evaluation (Gettleman)
The suck runs so deep it's hard to tell where one level ends and the other begins.
But hey, let's run it all back!
It really is a head-scratcher with the "run it back" strategy by Mara.
He stands up there a few weeks ago for the virtual "State of the Team" address and asks the fans to "trust" him one more time (again) that the right pieces are in place EVERYWHERE and big things are right around the corner...
And so many get in line with their empty glasses asking to have their refill of the Kool-Aid.
another thread that didn't have anything to do with Jones that became about Jones.
I wonder why?
I'm guessing it's because this time of year highlights what it takes to win in the NFL, and shines a light on how the Giants are failing to arrive at that standard.
This time of year has grown to be depressing for Giants fans.
that people see at home and now he's missing reads all over the place. I really don't think anyone watches the rest of the NFL. Good QBs miss reads every week as well as throws, it's the amount that makes the differnce. The problem with our offense, is that its highlighted so much because the amount of plays even there to be had or some of the lowest in the league and is directly attributable to a line that can't pass block and pass catchers as a whole are bottom 5.
Feel for the rush
Ball security
Decision making(where to throw)
Processing speed(too slow)
He has an adequate arm, neither a weakness nor a strength.
Feel for rush - ok, give you that
Ball Security - vastly improved after he lost the Tampa game
Decision making - based on what? If so why? Is he stupid? Easily confused? Does he not understand football? Lack of experience?
Processing speed - based on what? If so why? Is this not the same as above? So either he is slow to read and it causes him to be indecisive or does he lack the confidence to believe what he reads and pull the trigger?
I am not in his film sessions and don't know what was called. OK? My observations comes from re-watching some games and he doesn't even look in the direction of some wide open plays. He has left multiple touchdowns on the field. I am not interested in attempting to "win" a debate on BBI to spend the time compiling and creating videos. In short I would say my opinion is not far from Sy56 if you read his scouting report on Jones and have read his game reviews during the year. As for decision speed, sometimes, he pats the ball and does not move on to the next read. NFL stands for "not for long" in more ways than one. In most cases, he has to get rid of the ball in less than 3 seconds.
Fourth year junior entry. A three year starter and two time team captain. Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often. However, there were constant red flags in his tape that are hard to ignore. He didn’t see things well and his decisions were too inconsistent. There just seemed to be a lack of a true feel for the pocket, the defense, and angles. Jones checks a lot of boxes but there is a lot of gamble in the team that takes him even though he comes across as a “safe” bet to some.
*I wanted to like Jones more than this, I really did. I have a thing for tough quarterbacks and I do think he brought his teammates to another level. That’s a trend that can really make a kid break out in the NFL. While I do have a 1st round grade on him and I do think he can be in play at 17 because of the position he plays, I think NYG may need to steer clear here. Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based. After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.
I'm not exactly disagreeing with you here...but let's be honest, this offense was 100% built with the idea that Barkley was going to be featured. I won't argue that it has failed when he was in...but to think it would be successful without him is ignorant.
Tate was acquired because of his physical play. Unfortunately, hindsight has proved that his past success was probably based on PED's. Is that DG's fault or Tate's?
Shepard's contract is probably DG's biggest indictment. Again, since he's thought of as a decent blocking WR he got a contract way too big for what he brings to the team.
Slayton was a great draft pick, but is definitely overrated on this board.
Do I even need to get into how little Engram brings to the team? He should have been traded for anything of value last year.
Again, I'm not trying to justify anything here. Just trying to give insight on what DG might have been thinking. As soon as Barkley got hurt, this offense was doomed.
Most teams on both sides of the ball have a positional player that the
absolutely can't afford to miss extended time because of being absolute difference makers with little behind them.
If some fans can't realize that some of us are more optimistic because the offense was brutal when it has a good run blocking line, poor pass blocking line, an 11th man in the run game, and shitty inconsistent pass catchers and the key piece of that puzzle went down. Even with those factors, I'm confident this would have at least looked like a competent offense.
Desean Watson is a very good QB and he still put up stats. This is because they have a very deep pool of pass catchers and one of the better pass blocking lines in the league. Everything else sucked though and hence the record.
Who made the decision to build the offense around Barkley?
Something else to consider: Barkley's been a Giant for 3 years. The offense sucked all 3 seasons.
You're not wrong. It's on DG. This is 100% the year he is going to have to put up or shut up. There is no excuse not to build around the QB. Honestly, if Barkley was so good, we shouldn't have had to build an offense around a RB.
2021 will be the year we move on from DG and possibly Jones and Barkley if there isn't a marked improvement.
Who made the decision to build the offense around Barkley?
Something else to consider: Barkley's been a Giant for 3 years. The offense sucked all 3 seasons.
You're not wrong. It's on DG. This is 100% the year he is going to have to put up or shut up. There is no excuse not to build around the QB. Honestly, if Barkley was so good, we shouldn't have had to build an offense around a RB.
2021 will be the year we move on from DG and possibly Jones and Barkley if there isn't a marked improvement.
Why wait that long? Why throw away another season?
You can say he’s too loyal, but I don’t think he’s an awful owner. He’s made some poor decisions, but I’m not so sure I’d take any owner over him in the division.
Lurie is dealing with a mountain of issues right now and based on reports he is heavily involved in day to day football operations. He seems to meddle quite a bit. I don’t think the 2005-2012 stretch can be dismissed when analyzing John Mara as an owner.
You can say he’s too loyal, but I don’t think he’s an awful owner. He’s made some poor decisions, but I’m not so sure I’d take any owner over him in the division.
Lurie is dealing with a mountain of issues right now and based on reports he is heavily involved in day to day football operations. He seems to meddle quite a bit. I don’t think the 2005-2012 stretch can be dismissed when analyzing John Mara as an owner.
Loyal to who? You do know what title Chris Mara holds. Would that turd have a job if it wasn't for daddy? Personnel has been the #1 problem on this team since the last few years of Reese's tenure.
You can say he’s too loyal, but I don’t think he’s an awful owner. He’s made some poor decisions, but I’m not so sure I’d take any owner over him in the division.
Lurie is dealing with a mountain of issues right now and based on reports he is heavily involved in day to day football operations. He seems to meddle quite a bit. I don’t think the 2005-2012 stretch can be dismissed when analyzing John Mara as an owner.
I wonder if that era benefited from the previous structure. It was Wellington that hired Coughlin, and Accorsi that drafted Eli. I consider the peak to be 2008...that was the best football that era had to offer. They got a title on the way up and another on the way down. Fantastic.
But when it broke down, John hasn't shown himself able to build it back up on his own.
Both of your arguments are valid. I’m talking as a fan and probably being overly hopeful. But, I think hiring the right coach is a big factor in turning it around. I hope Judge’s influence spreads through the building.
Lombardi made a good point about the NFC East earlier this year. It used to be about the coaches: Parcells, Landry & Gibbs. Now it is about the owners. All of the owners in this division have been poor.
You can say he’s too loyal, but I don’t think he’s an awful owner. He’s made some poor decisions, but I’m not so sure I’d take any owner over him in the division.
Lurie is dealing with a mountain of issues right now and based on reports he is heavily involved in day to day football operations. He seems to meddle quite a bit. I don’t think the 2005-2012 stretch can be dismissed when analyzing John Mara as an owner.
Have you been to MetLife, btw? I think it is one of - if not the - worst new facilities in the NFL.
So for the last decade Mara has been hiring (or keeping) the wrong people to build bad teams for the fans to watch in bland new stadium.
And he continues to ask the fan base to "trust" him.
I'm not the biggest John fan in the world, nor was I enamored with his old man. The 'meaningful December football games' manta is so F'ing weak. The Maras come across as good, decent people, but their football/decision acumen is up for debate. And I think John, like Wellington, is loyal to a fault, which I get to a point-I too was sentimental about Eli-but it can hamstrung an organization if it goes to the extreme.
Regardless, playoffs or bust in 2021. Jones has to take a big, big step forward. If not, time to go shopping for another QB. I have faith in Judge as a HC & Gettleman did have an impressive offseason last year, but it's time for results.
Yes, I’ve been to MetLife. I actually am the wrong guy to ask about that because I don’t mind it. I wish the blue lighting was more prominent on the outside, but the facility itself is fine. It could definitely use more bells and whistles. If it were up to me, they should have just renovated Giants Stadium. I miss that place.
I don’t view Mara as a meddling owner. I think he meddled at the end of Eli, but I’m not going to pound him for that. Do I trust him? Idk - it will come down to how well Judge can coach and what his influence is. That’s the hope in this getting turned around.
The thing that worries me re. NFC East owners is Stephen Jones. He seems to know what he's doing & I'm assuming he's Jerry's heir.
Stephen Jones is essentially the one in control of football operations now. Seems to know what he's doing, but let's see how he does when he doesn't have a 4th round QB giving him above average QB play. The defense was abysmal this year and they are tops in the league of highest paid players. The difference between them and the Rams though is the guys they paid suck and part of that is their devaluation of "character" guys. He certainly knows what he's doing, but its also possible he's merely competent and since he's part of ownership he doesn't relinquish power.
No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.
I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.
Really? Your giving Jones a pass on not throwing receivers open/missing reads? I think it's hard to smooth out separation stats to get an even baseline.
There is scheme, quality of corners, etc...
I'm not giving him a pass. I'm saying there are multiple levels of suck to the Giants offense:
Coaching (Garrett)
Execution (Jones)
Talent acquisition and evaluation (Gettleman)
The suck runs so deep it's hard to tell where one level ends and the other begins.
Both of your arguments are valid. I’m talking as a fan and probably being overly hopeful. But, I think hiring the right coach is a big factor in turning it around. I hope Judge’s influence spreads through the building.
Lombardi made a good point about the NFC East earlier this year. It used to be about the coaches: Parcells, Landry & Gibbs. Now it is about the owners. All of the owners in this division have been poor.
Interesting point about how the balance of power leaning toward the owners. Decisions like how long to hold on to Eli for the Giants and Snyder apparently forcing the Haskins pick in the draft show signs of the dumb things we used to make fun of the Cowboys for after Jerry fired Jimmy Johnson.
I'm with you on the holding out hope for Judge. The guy seems to make good fundamental football decisions. Hard to argue with a lot of his choices. Time will tell.
Quote:
When you account for the fact that he has the worst separation in the NFL to throw to and his tight window throws are among the top in the league, considering his completion percentage in the context of receiver separation, the picture of accuracy should become clearer.
I am beyond tired of the separation excuse. Tight window metrics don't trump comp pct or other objective metrics. But even if I accept it as a reliable stat you have to deal with the flip side. PFF (who rank Jones the 24th best QB in 2020 which sounds about right but his absolute ceiling this season) acknowledged Jones was above average in tight windows but he was below league average when his receiver had a step or more. BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE throwing to open receivers. I look forward to you excuse for that one as you continue to baby our adult QB who has yet to impress statistically. Link below. Jones final 2020 PFF eval - ( New Window )
Feel for the rush
Ball security
Decision making(where to throw)
Processing speed(too slow)
He has an adequate arm, neither a weakness nor a strength.
And I say that not to point to comparisons, but we hear time and again that Jones has such an anemic output of yards and TD's that he can't get better. Even though the year prior, he had both yards and TD's.
he can improve on those numbers. And I think he surely will
I knew... and correction... Josh Allen didn't have one last year or the year before... then he blew up in year 3... but folks here ready to move on from DJ.
Feel for the rush
Ball security
Decision making(where to throw)
Processing speed(too slow)
He has an adequate arm, neither a weakness nor a strength.
Feel for rush - ok, give you that
Ball Security - vastly improved after he lost the Tampa game
Decision making - based on what? If so why? Is he stupid? Easily confused? Does he not understand football? Lack of experience?
Processing speed - based on what? If so why? Is this not the same as above? So either he is slow to read and it causes him to be indecisive or does he lack the confidence to believe what he reads and pull the trigger?
Quote:
In comment 15127998 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
on a team where the WR's cannot get separation.
Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.
Why can't the wide receivers get separation?
Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?
Because they aren't very good... isn't that obvious?
Quote:
In comment 15127998 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
on a team where the WR's cannot get separation.
Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.
Why can't the wide receivers get separation?
Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?
You're really waiting for an answer?? It is because none of our skill players represent an obvious mismatch. The best route runner is Shepard. The rest have been blanketed when thrown to.
Please tell me you aren't pinning their lack of separation on Jones.
I do not disagree. It will be time to shit or get off the pot.
Quote:
In comment 15128010 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15127998 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
on a team where the WR's cannot get separation.
Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.
Why can't the wide receivers get separation?
Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?
Because they aren't very good... isn't that obvious?
Two of the top three wide receivers were given contracts by this GM. The other was drafted by this GM. Why should we trust that he'll make good decisions there now?
Further, the offensive coordinator who couldn't scheme these receivers open will be back. Why should we trust that he'll do a better job now?
Quote:
In comment 15128010 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15127998 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
on a team where the WR's cannot get separation.
Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.
Why can't the wide receivers get separation?
Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?
You're really waiting for an answer?? It is because none of our skill players represent an obvious mismatch. The best route runner is Shepard. The rest have been blanketed when thrown to.
Please tell me you aren't pinning their lack of separation on Jones.
No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.
I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.
That's where I am. Would have liked to seen what he could do once it seemed like he took a turn, but the injury messed that up.
If he doesn't make big strides year 3 then its time to move on. Curious to see who's brought in as I suspect Judge won't give him a 16 game leash either.
There is little-to-no correlation between that WR separation stat and WR production.
Can we get to a point where we can agree not use this as a metric to evaluate WRs in the NFL?
It's stupid.
Quote:
In comment 15128044 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15128010 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15127998 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
on a team where the WR's cannot get separation.
Just for reference on how "abysmal" he's been. Last season, his completion % was better than Brady, Mayfield and Allen. And this year his Completion % improved.
Why can't the wide receivers get separation?
Still waiting for an answer. Why couldn't the wide receivers get any separation?
You're really waiting for an answer?? It is because none of our skill players represent an obvious mismatch. The best route runner is Shepard. The rest have been blanketed when thrown to.
Please tell me you aren't pinning their lack of separation on Jones.
No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.
I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.
Technically you can partially put it on Jones b/c when the stat is calculated, it's only calculated when the receiver is targeted.
SO - if DJ continually targets Darius Slayton on the slant while he's blanketed over and over again then Slayton's separation stat suffers.
Meanwhile, Dion Lewis gets no credit for being wide open after running past his guy b/c DJ didn't go through his reads and hit him.
So yes -the QB does impact the WR separation stats.
Which is why it's a dumb stat to begin with.
No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.
I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.
Really? Your giving Jones a pass on not throwing receivers open/missing reads? I think it's hard to smooth out separation stats to get an even baseline.
There is scheme, quality of corners, etc...
Quote:
No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.
I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.
Really? Your giving Jones a pass on not throwing receivers open/missing reads? I think it's hard to smooth out separation stats to get an even baseline.
There is scheme, quality of corners, etc...
I'm not giving him a pass. I'm saying there are multiple levels of suck to the Giants offense:
Coaching (Garrett)
Execution (Jones)
Talent acquisition and evaluation (Gettleman)
The suck runs so deep it's hard to tell where one level ends and the other begins.
But hey, let's run it all back!
I wonder why?
I'm not giving him a pass. I'm saying there are multiple levels of suck to the Giants offense:
Coaching (Garrett)
Execution (Jones)
Talent acquisition and evaluation (Gettleman)
The suck runs so deep it's hard to tell where one level ends and the other begins.
But hey, let's run it all back!
It really is a head-scratcher with the "run it back" strategy by Mara.
He stands up there a few weeks ago for the virtual "State of the Team" address and asks the fans to "trust" him one more time (again) that the right pieces are in place EVERYWHERE and big things are right around the corner...
And so many get in line with their empty glasses asking to have their refill of the Kool-Aid.
I wonder why?
I'm guessing it's because this time of year highlights what it takes to win in the NFL, and shines a light on how the Giants are failing to arrive at that standard.
This time of year has grown to be depressing for Giants fans.
Did the Giants go 10-6 and I missed something? Are they coming off a 33-15 three year stretch?
When the ownership stops trying to sell us dogshit, we'll stop calling it dogshit.
You didn't really answer my question before. Why don't the receivers get separation?
Seems odd
Quote:
Feel for the rush
Ball security
Decision making(where to throw)
Processing speed(too slow)
He has an adequate arm, neither a weakness nor a strength.
Feel for rush - ok, give you that
Ball Security - vastly improved after he lost the Tampa game
Decision making - based on what? If so why? Is he stupid? Easily confused? Does he not understand football? Lack of experience?
Processing speed - based on what? If so why? Is this not the same as above? So either he is slow to read and it causes him to be indecisive or does he lack the confidence to believe what he reads and pull the trigger?
Fourth year junior entry. A three year starter and two time team captain. Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often. However, there were constant red flags in his tape that are hard to ignore. He didn’t see things well and his decisions were too inconsistent. There just seemed to be a lack of a true feel for the pocket, the defense, and angles. Jones checks a lot of boxes but there is a lot of gamble in the team that takes him even though he comes across as a “safe” bet to some.
*I wanted to like Jones more than this, I really did. I have a thing for tough quarterbacks and I do think he brought his teammates to another level. That’s a trend that can really make a kid break out in the NFL. While I do have a 1st round grade on him and I do think he can be in play at 17 because of the position he plays, I think NYG may need to steer clear here. Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based. After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.
NFL Comparison: Ryan Tannehill / TEN
Tate was acquired because of his physical play. Unfortunately, hindsight has proved that his past success was probably based on PED's. Is that DG's fault or Tate's?
Shepard's contract is probably DG's biggest indictment. Again, since he's thought of as a decent blocking WR he got a contract way too big for what he brings to the team.
Slayton was a great draft pick, but is definitely overrated on this board.
Do I even need to get into how little Engram brings to the team? He should have been traded for anything of value last year.
Again, I'm not trying to justify anything here. Just trying to give insight on what DG might have been thinking. As soon as Barkley got hurt, this offense was doomed.
If some fans can't realize that some of us are more optimistic because the offense was brutal when it has a good run blocking line, poor pass blocking line, an 11th man in the run game, and shitty inconsistent pass catchers and the key piece of that puzzle went down. Even with those factors, I'm confident this would have at least looked like a competent offense.
Desean Watson is a very good QB and he still put up stats. This is because they have a very deep pool of pass catchers and one of the better pass blocking lines in the league. Everything else sucked though and hence the record.
Something else to consider: Barkley's been a Giant for 3 years. The offense sucked all 3 seasons.
Something else to consider: Barkley's been a Giant for 3 years. The offense sucked all 3 seasons.
You're not wrong. It's on DG. This is 100% the year he is going to have to put up or shut up. There is no excuse not to build around the QB. Honestly, if Barkley was so good, we shouldn't have had to build an offense around a RB.
2021 will be the year we move on from DG and possibly Jones and Barkley if there isn't a marked improvement.
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Who made the decision to build the offense around Barkley?
Something else to consider: Barkley's been a Giant for 3 years. The offense sucked all 3 seasons.
You're not wrong. It's on DG. This is 100% the year he is going to have to put up or shut up. There is no excuse not to build around the QB. Honestly, if Barkley was so good, we shouldn't have had to build an offense around a RB.
2021 will be the year we move on from DG and possibly Jones and Barkley if there isn't a marked improvement.
Why wait that long? Why throw away another season?
I agree a trillion percent. I think we have a major ownership problem.
I've been saying this for months and it's always overlooked. The game passed Mara by a long time ago. Unfortunately he will never sell.
Lurie is dealing with a mountain of issues right now and based on reports he is heavily involved in day to day football operations. He seems to meddle quite a bit. I don’t think the 2005-2012 stretch can be dismissed when analyzing John Mara as an owner.
Lurie is dealing with a mountain of issues right now and based on reports he is heavily involved in day to day football operations. He seems to meddle quite a bit. I don’t think the 2005-2012 stretch can be dismissed when analyzing John Mara as an owner.
Loyal to who? You do know what title Chris Mara holds. Would that turd have a job if it wasn't for daddy? Personnel has been the #1 problem on this team since the last few years of Reese's tenure.
Lurie is dealing with a mountain of issues right now and based on reports he is heavily involved in day to day football operations. He seems to meddle quite a bit. I don’t think the 2005-2012 stretch can be dismissed when analyzing John Mara as an owner.
I wonder if that era benefited from the previous structure. It was Wellington that hired Coughlin, and Accorsi that drafted Eli. I consider the peak to be 2008...that was the best football that era had to offer. They got a title on the way up and another on the way down. Fantastic.
But when it broke down, John hasn't shown himself able to build it back up on his own.
Lombardi made a good point about the NFC East earlier this year. It used to be about the coaches: Parcells, Landry & Gibbs. Now it is about the owners. All of the owners in this division have been poor.
Lurie is dealing with a mountain of issues right now and based on reports he is heavily involved in day to day football operations. He seems to meddle quite a bit. I don’t think the 2005-2012 stretch can be dismissed when analyzing John Mara as an owner.
Have you been to MetLife, btw? I think it is one of - if not the - worst new facilities in the NFL.
So for the last decade Mara has been hiring (or keeping) the wrong people to build bad teams for the fans to watch in bland new stadium.
And he continues to ask the fan base to "trust" him.
So why should we, again?
Regardless, playoffs or bust in 2021. Jones has to take a big, big step forward. If not, time to go shopping for another QB. I have faith in Judge as a HC & Gettleman did have an impressive offseason last year, but it's time for results.
I don’t view Mara as a meddling owner. I think he meddled at the end of Eli, but I’m not going to pound him for that. Do I trust him? Idk - it will come down to how well Judge can coach and what his influence is. That’s the hope in this getting turned around.
Stephen Jones is essentially the one in control of football operations now. Seems to know what he's doing, but let's see how he does when he doesn't have a 4th round QB giving him above average QB play. The defense was abysmal this year and they are tops in the league of highest paid players. The difference between them and the Rams though is the guys they paid suck and part of that is their devaluation of "character" guys. He certainly knows what he's doing, but its also possible he's merely competent and since he's part of ownership he doesn't relinquish power.
Almost certainly Jason Garrett, right?
Almost certainly Jason Garrett, right?
I heard a podcast the other night that the Ravens DC-Martindale?-wowed the Giants too so perhaps him?
Almost certainly Jason Garrett, right?
Martindale. From multiple sources he was the guy - Schrager & Lombardi both stated that.
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If Judge didn't ace the interview, or if he took the Mississippi State job, who's the head coach?
Almost certainly Jason Garrett, right?
Martindale. From multiple sources he was the guy - Schrager & Lombardi both stated that.
I hadn't heard that. That's a relief, at least.
Yup, that was the podcast. Martindale apparently blew the Giants away in his interview, but Judge more so.
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In comment 15128084 Go Terps said:
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No. I'm pinning it on the talent evaluation and coaching.
I'm not pinning it on Jones. He isn't very good, but he isn't getting help either.
Really? Your giving Jones a pass on not throwing receivers open/missing reads? I think it's hard to smooth out separation stats to get an even baseline.
There is scheme, quality of corners, etc...
I'm not giving him a pass. I'm saying there are multiple levels of suck to the Giants offense:
Coaching (Garrett)
Execution (Jones)
Talent acquisition and evaluation (Gettleman)
The suck runs so deep it's hard to tell where one level ends and the other begins.
But hey, let's run it all back!
this x 1000
Lombardi made a good point about the NFC East earlier this year. It used to be about the coaches: Parcells, Landry & Gibbs. Now it is about the owners. All of the owners in this division have been poor.
Interesting point about how the balance of power leaning toward the owners. Decisions like how long to hold on to Eli for the Giants and Snyder apparently forcing the Haskins pick in the draft show signs of the dumb things we used to make fun of the Cowboys for after Jerry fired Jimmy Johnson.
I'm with you on the holding out hope for Judge. The guy seems to make good fundamental football decisions. Hard to argue with a lot of his choices. Time will tell.