Its been 3 years now and enough time to give an accurate assessment of the offseason. So Dan Duggan of the Athletic gave a real nice look back. My concern isn't with the individual results.. that can be good or bad.. but the idea that the process or the logical thinking associated with these moves itself were bad..
Starting with the misconception that Eli had anything left.. DG has to take fault for this.. Either he believed it and convinced Mara or Mara hired him because DG said Eli still had it in him.. Either way Giants were screwed and impact from both a CAP perspective and the desicions made to provide him support were wrong..
Nate Solder signing turned out to be bad.. but we needed to do something so I can excuse that.. to a lesser extent I can excuse the same with Omameh.. Although that dude sucked all his life and Jags a team desperately looking for OL, had let him go..
Trading for Ogletree was bad.. worse was moving his salary to bonuses.. This had a longer lasting impact than the draft picks we traded for him.. The same with Solder.. The process or the logic used when we moved thier salary to bonuses was a bigger mistake than actually getting them..
Trading JPP.. This one is baffling.. you want to compete right now.. but you are trading away a premier DE who was good against the run and pass for a 3rd round pick? nothing about this make sense if you are trying to win with Eli and getting much worse players in Solder and Ogletree to help..
Drafting SB.. drafting him wasn't the problem.. he was one of the best prospects coming out.. problem was that 2nd pick that year was worth a lot.. Indy traded 3rd pick for what was a solid return.. add to it that the draft had a prospect who was also really highly ranked and played a position that we desperately needed.. Nelson was very close to being in the same range as SB.. and was a better long term solution as well as short term solution to help Eli suceed.. The thing that was even worse was that the giants were completely unwilling to listen to any offer.. DGs attitude as well as the speed at which they drafted Barkley shows that they had no interest in moving..
Extending Odell.. I kind of get the move.. he was a fan favourite.. and had it not been for that interview the Giants probably still have him and the offense was very dynamic with both SB and Odell..
Stewart.. I mean was there a reason to pay him more than the vet min? we paid him quite a bit more than that and I doubt anyone else would've paid him.. Everything associated with that move to build culture sounded stupid.. obviously no one would say that was a good move in hindsight but you didn't need hindsight for it.. it was a bad move before it was ever made..
Will Hernandez who everyone loved has pretty much been benched.. whats worse is that every LT who started next to him looked bad.. as soon as he missed a game AT started looking like his draft profile.. Gates also started improving..
Players that were let go were also good players.. and have out produced..
All this resulted in Giants having the most dead money in the books over the past 3 years.. The team couldn't fill holes and had tons of holes to fill.. We still have bad contracts on the books that BBI wants to end and eat the dead cap associated with them..
Examining the Giants’ 2018 ‘miscalculations’ and their ongoing impact - (
New Window )
It takes that long and patience to evaluate what happened..
Would you be saying that if the Giants were good?
We've been hearing for three years that 2018's decisions were part of a three year plan...that we couldn't assess until that point. Now that we're here we're supposed to say "the past is the past" and not grade it?
That just doesn't hold water. Now is the time to look back and assess how it worked out.
If hiring Gettleman was about Eli, they should have punted drafting a QB to 2020 and moved off both DG & Shurmur after 2019 and been in prime position to draft a QB in 2020. Drafting Jones in 2019 complimented everything.
If hiring Gettleman was about Eli, they should have punted drafting a QB to 2020 and moved off both DG & Shurmur after 2019 and been in prime position to draft a QB in 2020. Drafting Jones in 2019 complimented everything.
+1
yet they brought back Janoris who had been suspended in 2017. Regardless, if DG wanted to move on from a player who was approaching his 30s and was not exactly durable...that's his prerogative. But the return could have/should have been better.
If hiring Gettleman was about Eli, they should have punted drafting a QB to 2020 and moved off both DG & Shurmur after 2019 and been in prime position to draft a QB in 2020. Drafting Jones in 2019 complimented everything.
This was Ben's first bad season and his coach didn't bench him for a backup.. Eli was on his 3rd bad season by then.. The leash was much longer for Eli than any other QB in this day and age.. longer than Brady.. Longer than Peyton.. longer than Rodgers as after 2 above average season, the packers drafted a QB in the 1st round.. its been longer than any other QB..
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like it or not.
yet they brought back Janoris who had been suspended in 2017. Regardless, if DG wanted to move on from a player who was approaching his 30s and was not exactly durable...that's his prerogative. But the return could have/should have been better.
Eh, JPP was not exactly playing well at the time, and part of the transaction was cap relief. I was a bit surprised Jenkins didn't go too, but they were clearly trying to move him.
If hiring Gettleman was about Eli, they should have punted drafting a QB to 2020 and moved off both DG & Shurmur after 2019 and been in prime position to draft a QB in 2020. Drafting Jones in 2019 complimented everything.
Sean - assume you meant "complicated everything", correct?
If so, then I would violently agree with your above post in all aspects.
the Jets seemed to do ok sending out an un-signed Jamal Adams. Jalen Ramsey, Tunsil, Mack....
It adds fuel to the decision timing/resource allocation fire, imv. Seems to be no rhyme or reason sometimes.
If the plan was to win with Eli, wouldn’t using the 6th pick be a valuable asset to actually help them win with Eli? It made no sense. QB in 2018 or 2020 would have made sense, 2019 never did.
If the plan was to win with Eli, wouldn’t using the 6th pick be a valuable asset to actually help them win with Eli? It made no sense. QB in 2018 or 2020 would have made sense, 2019 never did.
They had 3 first round picks in 2019. Theoretically they could have drafted TJ Hockenson, AJ Brown, and DK Metcalf in that round. It's obviously hindsight, but had they committed to drafting weapons for Eli in that draft they would have been in better position to finish strong with Eli and hand a good offense off to his successor. Instead, it looks like we're about to invest in lesser offensive weapons now at greater cap cost.
Timing and resource allocation have been a colossal disaster, and continue to be.
Saquon Barkley is obviously a still a major asset on the team, but his future value hinges on a full recovery otherwise that pick is looking really bad.
I cannot think of one other positive contribution that occurred other than maybe finding Nick Gates.
Anybody?
Don't forget Nick Gates! If he makes it to the Hall of Fame you can always point back to that too.
I think the Jags swooped in last minute with a big offer and stole him away.
That sent DG into panic mode, and used that Norwell money on Soldier
I always said, if you are retaining Eli, go all in for chrissakes. Dont draft Jones, draft players that help Eli win. Either that or get rid of Eli, you believe in him or you don't. I thought that was big misstep and why I wanted DG gone.
All signs point to initiating another rebuild in 2022/2023.
All signs point to initiating another rebuild in 2022/2023.
Agreed, barring a drastic improvement in onfield performance from this team, I think we are headed toward another complete rebuild in the not to distant future.
Terps, no offense but this is just a gigantic word salad. In what world would the Giants not want to build around their QB and RB?
No, he wasn't a bad pick. He tore his fucking knee. We make the playoffs with him this year, no questions asked. And yeah, we make the playoffs in a shitty division, who cares. Barkley is an all world talent who makes our offense better.
Reese also passed on Ramczyck for Engram, Zack Martin for Beckham
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Mara and Gettleman have to justify keeping the current operation together (i.e. building around Jones and Barkley). So instead of making strategic decisions considering all options with the short and long term in mind, the decisions are probably being made through the prism of "how is this good for Jones and Barkley".
Terps, no offense but this is just a gigantic word salad. In what world would the Giants not want to build around their QB and RB?
But are there going to honestly and objectively evaluate those two players? I doubt it.
If Zach Wilson drops to 11, would they draft him? Probably not. Did they consider drafting Herbert last year? Probably not. Why would they... they've already got Jones.
If someone offers to trade picks for Barkley, will they consider it? Probably not... He's touched by God.
For Mara and Gettleman they can't just turn the ship around. They have to turn it around with Jones and Barkley. Otherwise they look like fools and Gettleman pays with his job (though that's not a certainty with how the Giants operate).
That's why the 2018 off-season is such a relevant discussion. It colors everything that happens now.
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In comment 15128024 Go Terps said:
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Mara and Gettleman have to justify keeping the current operation together (i.e. building around Jones and Barkley). So instead of making strategic decisions considering all options with the short and long term in mind, the decisions are probably being made through the prism of "how is this good for Jones and Barkley".
Terps, no offense but this is just a gigantic word salad. In what world would the Giants not want to build around their QB and RB?
But are there going to honestly and objectively evaluate those two players? I doubt it.
If Zach Wilson drops to 11, would they draft him? Probably not. Did they consider drafting Herbert last year? Probably not. Why would they... they've already got Jones.
If someone offers to trade picks for Barkley, will they consider it? Probably not... He's touched by God.
For Mara and Gettleman they can't just turn the ship around. They have to turn it around with Jones and Barkley. Otherwise they look like fools and Gettleman pays with his job (though that's not a certainty with how the Giants operate).
That's why the 2018 off-season is such a relevant discussion. It colors everything that happens now.
I'm sure if they thought Wilson was an incredible QB prospect, they would take him. He's not. He's a better version of Drew Lock, and in my opinion he's not a kid that could handle NY.
Trading picks for Barkley...ok...sure. What picks? You act like teams are offering a 1st rounder for him. Which pick? What is involved? And honestly, Barkley's 2018 and majority of 2019 are reason enough to believe that he's a superstar player. I mean...did we not watch him play? The sheer notion of him being off this team is like porn to some people, I don't understand it. We have him on the team, we will now make the team AROUND him better by drafting OTHER players, such as OL, receivers, etc. This isn't Madden where you just switch out your players every year. Yeah, if Barkley hadn't shown much and he was all potential and no results, you probably say OK maybe this guy just won't ever be good and you take a 2nd or 3rd rounder for him. Well, as it turns out when he's healthy he's pretty much a top 3-4 running back in the entire league. We need to stop this thing where we just look back and go oh well they should have done X instead, so we should trade him now. It makes no sense, whatsoever. Unless someone offers you a deal you cannot refuse, you keep Saquon Barkley.
Based on this thinking the Titans would have traded Derrick Henry after his first 2 or even third season. I mean hey, there was probably a "better" running back available or someone comparable, just get rid of him right?
No, he wasn't a bad pick. He tore his fucking knee. We make the playoffs with him this year, no questions asked. And yeah, we make the playoffs in a shitty division, who cares. Barkley is an all world talent who makes our offense better.
Really just a ridiculous post. Not able separate the difference between how fans view the pick versus the player.
Nobody wished an ACL team on Saquon either. You just hate those that don't see it your way.
Oh and by the way, those other teams in the division had a few big injuries as well including the winner who had to play like 4 QBs this season. So the "whoa is me" thing doesn't hold water.
The Colts took a three-time first-team All-Pro guard (No. 6 pick Quenton Nelson) and an excellent right tackle (No. 37 pick Braden Smith) with the first two picks from the Jets. They then traded the other second-round pick (No. 49) to the Eagles for the 52nd pick (edge rusher Kemoko Turay) and the 169th pick (running back Jordan Wilkins). They then used the 2019 second-round pick from the Jets (No. 34 overall) on cornerback Rock Ya-Sin. Turning the No. 3 pick into two stud offensive linemen, a starting cornerback, a rotational pass rusher and a backup running back is a master class in maximizing value.
Gettleman and Mara don’t view the Barkley pick as a mistake.
“I’m still happy that we have him,” Mara said last week. “I certainly expect him to be a Giant for a very long time.”
The bold is what Chris Ballard, GM, did for the Colts in ONE draft.
One pick behind the Giants in 2018.
Talking about playing chess...
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The other option was trading back. We’ll never know if Gettleman could have received the package the Jets sent the Colts for the No. 3 pick (the No. 6 pick, two second-round picks in 2018, one second-round pick in 2019). Maybe if Gettleman had a better poker face about his commitment to Manning and infatuation with Barkley, the Jets would have been compelled to trade up to No. 2 to avoid having the Giants beat them to Darnold. But Gettleman admitted to never seriously considering offers for the pick because he was so dead set on taking Barkley.
The Colts took a three-time first-team All-Pro guard (No. 6 pick Quenton Nelson) and an excellent right tackle (No. 37 pick Braden Smith) with the first two picks from the Jets. They then traded the other second-round pick (No. 49) to the Eagles for the 52nd pick (edge rusher Kemoko Turay) and the 169th pick (running back Jordan Wilkins). They then used the 2019 second-round pick from the Jets (No. 34 overall) on cornerback Rock Ya-Sin. Turning the No. 3 pick into two stud offensive linemen, a starting cornerback, a rotational pass rusher and a backup running back is a master class in maximizing value.
Gettleman and Mara don’t view the Barkley pick as a mistake.
“I’m still happy that we have him,” Mara said last week. “I certainly expect him to be a Giant for a very long time.”
The bold is what Chris Ballard, GM, did for the Colts in ONE draft.
One pick behind the Giants in 2018.
Talking about playing chess...
That's my point as well.. Barkley is a great players.. but he is exactly what I thought he would be minus the injury.. but the attitude and closing down other options because of a RB is something I am not happy with.. in a draft with 4 highly rater QBs you couldn't find a trade partner.. you also properly never evaluated the QBs cause you were so dedicated to Eli.. That's the part that bothers me.. the process, the methodology..
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The other option was trading back. We’ll never know if Gettleman could have received the package the Jets sent the Colts for the No. 3 pick (the No. 6 pick, two second-round picks in 2018, one second-round pick in 2019). Maybe if Gettleman had a better poker face about his commitment to Manning and infatuation with Barkley, the Jets would have been compelled to trade up to No. 2 to avoid having the Giants beat them to Darnold. But Gettleman admitted to never seriously considering offers for the pick because he was so dead set on taking Barkley.
The Colts took a three-time first-team All-Pro guard (No. 6 pick Quenton Nelson) and an excellent right tackle (No. 37 pick Braden Smith) with the first two picks from the Jets. They then traded the other second-round pick (No. 49) to the Eagles for the 52nd pick (edge rusher Kemoko Turay) and the 169th pick (running back Jordan Wilkins). They then used the 2019 second-round pick from the Jets (No. 34 overall) on cornerback Rock Ya-Sin. Turning the No. 3 pick into two stud offensive linemen, a starting cornerback, a rotational pass rusher and a backup running back is a master class in maximizing value.
Gettleman and Mara don’t view the Barkley pick as a mistake.
“I’m still happy that we have him,” Mara said last week. “I certainly expect him to be a Giant for a very long time.”
The bold is what Chris Ballard, GM, did for the Colts in ONE draft.
One pick behind the Giants in 2018.
Talking about playing chess...
Not to mention picking a guy named Darius Leonard at LB in 2018 as well. Just about as good a LB there is in the game today.
But on BBI the defenders will tell you don’t trade down for the sake of trading down.
I respect you admit this (a sentiment many Manning fans won’t admit) — but do realize that type of bad management is a slap in the face to the other players and coaches, who assumed management was operating in good faith to put forth the best team, not just celebrate Manning.
And also - there’s a notion going around that “well, if they let Eli walk in 2018 then we probably have another QB. Maybe Allen, maybe Herbert, etc.” well I hate to break it to everyone but there are quarterbacks in the draft every year that have talent and that can be championship QBs. Giants figured they could find one. Let’s hope they did.
That's a big assumption given they won more games this year without him than they had in each of his previous two seasons.
And the injury isn't an excuse...everyone was talking about running back injuries and short careers when they made this ridiculous pick.
To me putting any player above the team, where lots of players and coaches are scraping to stay employed, is pretty crummy.
I recall two things Eli said:
1. To Mike Francesa around 2017-2018 - "It's almost been like having two separate careers."
2. At Coughlin's farewell press conference - "We did well, but it could have been better."
Those are paraphrasing, but I'm very close to the exact words. I agree with those that say 2005-2012 were very special; but they did leave some business undone. It could have been better.
Barkley can feel free to start having a big impact in the win loss column at any time. I honestly can't wait for it.
Does this assume Dak wasn't healthy, the Cowboys OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles receiving corp wasn't healthy, etc.?
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If Barkley isn’t out for the year we easily win the nfc east this season.
Does this assume Dak wasn't healthy, the Cowboys OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles receiving corp wasn't healthy, etc.?
Bad things only seem to happen to the Giants. Injuries, COVID, learning new systems... it's tough to win when you're at such a disadvantage.
However, watching JPP with the Bucs makes me sick. He hasn't lost anything, even now. He will never be as good as he was in 2011 but he's still a legit Pro Bowl DE that plays really hard.
I'm not buying him as a lockerroom malcontent either. The guy plays football the right way, and always has. He sets the edge. He plays injured. He gets after the QB. He can play in any scheme. (Versatile.)
Threw the baby out with the bath water. By far, Gettleman's worst move because you couldn't even understand it in real time.
Question: if staying with Eli cost the Giants "1 year in terms of rebuilding," who or what is responsible for the other 7 or 8 years since their last Super Bowl?
And people here go crazy when we talk about what we have to pay guys.
How the hell would we pay JPP and are you telling me he's going to be the rare guy nobody on BBI bitches about how much he would make??
And people here go crazy when we talk about what we have to pay guys.
How the hell would we pay JPP and are you telling me he's going to be the rare guy nobody on BBI bitches about how much he would make??
I don't think people would complain about paying 25M to a DE who averages 10 sacks a season while also being good against the run.. I mean we pay Tate that kind of money for not being half as talented at WR as JPP is in his old days at DE..
The much bigger issue was the awful free agent evaluation process that occurred that spring and the worthless players added to the roster to replace JPP snaps and others.
To the the hypothetical question of how would the Giants cover JPP's salary...are you kidding? Go pull up a list of guys signed in Spring of 2018 and take your pick/combination of money thrown away to guys no longer on the team.
Yeah, and if Dak didn't get hurt, we would have been out of the running by week 8, Barkley or no Barkley
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If Barkley isn’t out for the year we easily win the nfc east this season.
Does this assume Dak wasn't healthy, the Cowboys OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles receiving corp wasn't healthy, etc.?
And Washington lost a starting quarterback about every other game.
But I guess injuries happen to teams every year.
The injury to Saquon Barkley must have been different in some way.
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In comment 15128591 djm said:
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If Barkley isn’t out for the year we easily win the nfc east this season.
Does this assume Dak wasn't healthy, the Cowboys OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles receiving corp wasn't healthy, etc.?
And Washington lost a starting quarterback about every other game.
But I guess injuries happen to teams every year.
The injury to Saquon Barkley must have been different in some way.
We were the least injured team in our division.. our record in 2019 was better without Barkley than with him.. while the eagles and cowboys were devasted by injuries.. I can't believe some people are actually proud of this team winning 6 games.. any mediocre team wins 8 games with our schedule.. it was the easiest schedule to win 8 games that I've seen the giants have in my+ 30 years..
This is the story of all bad teams though. They miss more than they make and it looks like they are just plugging holes.
This year if they can figure out the pass catchers, 2nd corner, and a competent edge, all of a sudden they really aren't plugging holes anymore and trying to improve on a solid roster. If you fast forward to 2022 and look at the team, there isn't really anything glaring unless a career threatingin injury pops up. We finally have some young, solid, talent in the building. This is why I'm confident they are close, just need to get it right this year and we are built for a strong run.
I actually disagree that none of the big ticket FA are worth it this year. AROB fits the guy that is going to explode somewhere else to a tee. Just a brutally bad offense with inconsistent QB play. AROB isn't a game breaker, but a true number 1 and to do what he is capable of needs to be on a team that will consistently move the chains and get in red zone.
Godwin may be a guy that is worth it as well. Of course he may be a beneficiary of everything else around him. Does he win when coverage is focused on him? That I'm not so sure. Of course when Jameis was locking in on him in 2019 might give the answer to that story.
JPP is such an enigma though. He signed that deal because of the guranteed money and I watch him every week. He certainly finally learned how to play with one hand, but put him on a non attacking defense without a very good front 7 and his effectiveness goes away.
He's kind of like Engram in that way. Put solid pieces around him and he looks like a big time playmaker, when he is THE piece, he looks like shit.
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That JPP contract is a great example of a very good deal — productive player with no long term commitment and average dollars.
JPP is such an enigma though. He signed that deal because of the guranteed money and I watch him every week. He certainly finally learned how to play with one hand, but put him on a non attacking defense without a very good front 7 and his effectiveness goes away.
He's kind of like Engram in that way. Put solid pieces around him and he looks like a big time playmaker, when he is THE piece, he looks like shit.
I am sorry that is way off the mark.. JPP and Engram are no way comparable.. through their career JPP has earned enough credit to not be compared to Engram.. 2011 JPP was as big a reason as any for us to get to and win the superbowl.. Unlike the offense, the defense only had one player and he performed as good as any individual defensive player the giants have had in a long time..
C'mon!
What about Tuck, Joseph, Rolle, Webster and Phillips?
By the end of the season, that D was very stout
C'mon!
What about Tuck, Joseph, Rolle, Webster and Phillips?
By the end of the season, that D was very stout
Throughout the season all those guys underperformed for a long time.. the last 2 games of the regular season is when they started playing..
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In comment 15128591 djm said:
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If Barkley isn’t out for the year we easily win the nfc east this season.
Does this assume Dak wasn't healthy, the Cowboys OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles receiving corp wasn't healthy, etc.?
Bad things only seem to happen to the Giants. Injuries, COVID, learning new systems... it's tough to win when you're at such a disadvantage.
yea except this thread is obliterating the decision to draft the guy. And like I said, it's easy to bash the pick now that he's been hurt for 2 years straight. If the guy was healthy and the giants double nearly every win total prediction for 2020 and win the east, does this thread even exist? Unlikely. And please save me the horse shit that RBs always get hurt.
Thanks for playing.
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The 2011 Giants D only had one player!!
C'mon!
What about Tuck, Joseph, Rolle, Webster and Phillips?
By the end of the season, that D was very stout
Throughout the season all those guys underperformed for a long time.. the last 2 games of the regular season is when they started playing..
C'mon. Webster had 6 INT's that season. Rolle was the leader of the back. It wasn't like JPP carried the team.
NO ONE could have realistically predicted that Bark would miss the lion's share of 2 straight seasons. His health doesn't save 2019, no doubt, but it most definitely would have cast 2020 in a much different light.
The guy was the best RB prospect to come along EVER. Not my words. Many pro scouts literally said this. Barkley checked off boxes that don't even exist for RB prospects. He was perfect. Now he's fucked up and no one can predict that he would have been wrecked by year 3.
Any NYG fan sitting here roasting DG for this pick now is just an asshole. You don't like picking a RB that high, ok fine, but this was a pick that SHOULD have expedited the rebuild here. It hasn't, but not because the guy can't play. The Barkley pick shouldn't be used as an indictment on DG. The guy was clearly the most talented player and the most likely to reach his potential. Any fan killing that logic is ridiculous. Kill DG for taking Jones? Fine have at it even if it's 20 games in, again stupid, but have at it. Jones was a risky pick. Picking Barkley was not a risk. It was not a reach. It was not a stretch. IT was a logical pick. It didn't work, yet.
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In comment 15128605 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15128591 djm said:
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If Barkley isn’t out for the year we easily win the nfc east this season.
Does this assume Dak wasn't healthy, the Cowboys OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles receiving corp wasn't healthy, etc.?
Bad things only seem to happen to the Giants. Injuries, COVID, learning new systems... it's tough to win when you're at such a disadvantage.
yea except this thread is obliterating the decision to draft the guy. And like I said, it's easy to bash the pick now that he's been hurt for 2 years straight. If the guy was healthy and the giants double nearly every win total prediction for 2020 and win the east, does this thread even exist? Unlikely. And please save me the horse shit that RBs always get hurt.
Thanks for playing.
Yeah but he hasn't been healthy, has he?
And criticizing the pick isn't hindsight. My first text to my friends upon hearing the pick announced was "Dumb fucking assholes".
And that's how it turned out. The pick was really, really, dumb.
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In comment 15128605 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15128591 djm said:
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If Barkley isn’t out for the year we easily win the nfc east this season.
Does this assume Dak wasn't healthy, the Cowboys OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles receiving corp wasn't healthy, etc.?
Bad things only seem to happen to the Giants. Injuries, COVID, learning new systems... it's tough to win when you're at such a disadvantage.
yea except this thread is obliterating the decision to draft the guy. And like I said, it's easy to bash the pick now that he's been hurt for 2 years straight. If the guy was healthy and the giants double nearly every win total prediction for 2020 and win the east, does this thread even exist? Unlikely. And please save me the horse shit that RBs always get hurt.
Thanks for playing.
Duck and pivot.
You play it a lot.
The guy was the best RB prospect to come along EVER. Not my words. Many pro scouts literally said this.
If they all said this it would be easy to find.. Please find some that said he was the best RB prospect ever.. If you read my original post you can see that I didn't blame DG for drafting SB as much as the attitude he had, the fact the DG didn't entertain trades.. the idea that a RB would change this team and make 2018 a success..
I will say this again as I have said in a previous post since SB got here, giants have won more games without him then they have with him.. With SB Giants are 7-23.. without SB Giants are 8-12..
in 2019 Giants were 2-10 with SB.. and 2-4 without him..
If we are going by your standards of being the best RB prospect ever, the guy hasn't been close to perfect.. His inability to get positive yards on many plays is a negative.. his pass blocking has been utterly sub par..
Barkley is not, nor has he ever been, the best running back in football.
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In comment 15128904 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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The 2011 Giants D only had one player!!
C'mon!
What about Tuck, Joseph, Rolle, Webster and Phillips?
By the end of the season, that D was very stout
Throughout the season all those guys underperformed for a long time.. the last 2 games of the regular season is when they started playing..
C'mon. Webster had 6 INT's that season. Rolle was the leader of the back. It wasn't like JPP carried the team.
I guess those 2 played above average.. but JPP was still the leader of that defense and the idea that we are comparing JPP's production to being like Engram is nuts no matter how you put it..
I've also said I don't like attributing all the blame to a GM no matter the team or the situation, barring some exceptions. To me, the Gm isn't held to the same standard a HC is. The HC has more control than people think and more often than not has a bigger impact on wins and losses than the GM does. Not because the players don't matter, of course they do, but I think most GMs know NFL talent while many HCs don't know how to win. Also, 2018 was not a typical year for NYG. IT was not a random season. It was coming off the most dreadful season in NYG history and unless the most amazing HC in NFL history was there to right the ship, 2018 was never going to be that great. Shurmur was no great HC.
TO me, 2019-2020 look better in terms of younger incoming talent and a team that appears to be taking steps toward respectability. Baker was a miss. Jones we will see.
If DG didn't have a good 2020 offseason i'd have a hard time defending him and wouldn't be. If I saw progress I would be OK with him sticking around and working with Judge. And that's what I saw. If you didn't see progress I guess we agree to disagree.
The Colts could have botched every single pick they got from the Jets -- would've been hilarious. The Colts process would still be undeniably, objectively, historically, studied-by-dorks-and-borne-out correct.
The Colts could have botched every single pick they got from the Jets -- would've been hilarious. The Colts process would still be undeniably, objectively, historically, studied-by-dorks-and-borne-out correct.
The Colts are an example of a well-run franchise that has had bad luck at the QB position - literally the reverse of what they had since 98.
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In comment 15128906 chuckydee9 said:
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In comment 15128904 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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The 2011 Giants D only had one player!!
C'mon!
What about Tuck, Joseph, Rolle, Webster and Phillips?
By the end of the season, that D was very stout
Throughout the season all those guys underperformed for a long time.. the last 2 games of the regular season is when they started playing..
C'mon. Webster had 6 INT's that season. Rolle was the leader of the back. It wasn't like JPP carried the team.
I guess those 2 played above average.. but JPP was still the leader of that defense and the idea that we are comparing JPP's production to being like Engram is nuts no matter how you put it..
You're right Chucky. For a large part of the season the Defense, other than JPP, was basically sleepwalking quite a bit. The rest of them put it together late and then in playoffs. But Eli, Nicks, Cruz and JPP were the rocks.
The Colts could have botched every single pick they got from the Jets -- would've been hilarious. The Colts process would still be undeniably, objectively, historically, studied-by-dorks-and-borne-out correct.
Agree. The play back in 2018 if the team wasn't going QB was to get out of that #2 pick. Will always believe that.
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this thread is poking holes in 2018. And if Barkley isn't destroyed we win the NFC east in our sleep. We may have even won 9 games...I know I know...CRAZY! Save it. The best RB in football can't help a team win 2-3 more games? In a season that saw the team lose 4-5 nail biters>? gimme a break.
The guy has played in 8 wins.....8. He hasn't impacted winning so far.
LT played on a 3-12 team once. And he played on a 4-5 team too.
Cmon already. are you actually implying that BArkely won't help a team win games? You are. And it's a stupid implication.
JFC. Some of you are so fucking stubborn.
JFC. Some of you are so fucking stubborn.
Facts are stubborn things.
I've also said I don't like attributing all the blame to a GM no matter the team or the situation, barring some exceptions. To me, the Gm isn't held to the same standard a HC is. The HC has more control than people think and more often than not has a bigger impact on wins and losses than the GM does. Not because the players don't matter, of course they do, but I think most GMs know NFL talent while many HCs don't know how to win. Also, 2018 was not a typical year for NYG. IT was not a random season. It was coming off the most dreadful season in NYG history and unless the most amazing HC in NFL history was there to right the ship, 2018 was never going to be that great. Shurmur was no great HC.
TO me, 2019-2020 look better in terms of younger incoming talent and a team that appears to be taking steps toward respectability. Baker was a miss. Jones we will see.
If DG didn't have a good 2020 offseason i'd have a hard time defending him and wouldn't be. If I saw progress I would be OK with him sticking around and working with Judge. And that's what I saw. If you didn't see progress I guess we agree to disagree.
I agree with a lot of what you said here HC has a lot to do with everything.. even more so than GM.. Thats my opnion as well.. What I disagree with you is that the progress in 2020 wasn't so much as I would've liked.. We won't know for sure till 2 more years but I just don't see it.. 2 years ago everyone was gaga over Will Hernandez and people said he wasn't much worse than Nelson.. now we know thats far from the truth..
There are 22 players on the football field dude.
We had one of the worst coaches in NFL history, a terrible QB, and a horrific defense. You're embarrassing yourself on this topic.
Saquon Barkley is the best running back the Giants have. Does anything else matter?
We had one of the worst coaches in NFL history, a terrible QB, and a horrific defense. You're embarrassing yourself on this topic.
The only thing that's embarrassing is the ocean of excuses we have to wade through every day.
Sure DG needs to go and we have sucked for like an eternity but the fiasco of the team’s acquisitions in 2018 and 2019 - the book is already I as far as I’m concerned — makes 2020 a better reset date. The new Judge era.
Sure DG needs to go and we have sucked for like an eternity but the fiasco of the team’s acquisitions in 2018 and 2019 - the book is already I as far as I’m concerned — makes 2020 a better reset date. The new Judge era.
I think there's a good chance we're looking at a new GM (not that new, probably Abrams) and QB in 2022.
When Judge has a hand in picking the QB, that to me is the start.
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"wahhhh but we only won 5 games wahhhh"
We had one of the worst coaches in NFL history, a terrible QB, and a horrific defense. You're embarrassing yourself on this topic.
The only thing that's embarrassing is the ocean of excuses we have to wade through every day.
You mean like "total yards don't matter".
Barkley was the best running back in football in 2018. Sure, you can argue that a few were on his level, maybe slightly better, slightly worse. But he was the best. And if you don't think he was the "best" maybe there was what....1 other guy better?
Barkley was 2nd in rushing yards in 2018, first in overall yards.
Barkley missed 4 games in 2019, and still finished 15th in rushing, and 11th in all purpose yards. He likely finishes 2nd behind McCaffrey without the injury.
So, yeah, maybe he's not the "best" but he is on equal footing of the very best, 3-4 running backs in football
Barkley’ had a highlight reel of a season in 2018 yet the Giants offense was lousy and Shurmur was constantly getting away from Saquon in the second halves of tight games. That tells me that there’s a possibility that Barkley doesn’t help his team win games, despite the talent and gross production, and that Shurmur, a talented offensive coach, sensed that and decreased is role in crucial situations.
He got a lot of pass targets in 2018, with pretty average productivity. I'd much rather those targets go 1) downfield or 2) to other backs so he's not taking the pounding for little incremental gain.
I'm excited to see him back. If he's healthy he's clearly a net gain for the offense.
I'm ambivalent on the pick. For my taste if you're going to invest big resources in a back, you probably want to be in a competitive window, because the odds say you're going to get 4 big years at most from the player.
Throwing to the running back is a lot about scheme. Barkley's 7.9 Y/C is fine on 1st and 10, but a lot of that was coming as a checkdown on 3rd and 9+.
Since we drafted him I have been advocating that we need to be throwing the ball to him on 1st and 10 a ton; not on 3rd and long. Shit, he's such a poor blocker that having him on the field on 3rd and long is actually a liability. #26 on the field on 3rd and long is a bright red flashing sign that screams "BLITZ!".
If we had Kyle Shanahan or Sean McVay designing the offense I'm sure Barkley would be much more successful here...but it would be more about the scheme than it would be about Barkley.
In 2018 the Giants offense averaged 5.8 Y/PP, .30 1D/PP, .03 TD/PP
Barkley as a pass target averaged 5.9 Y/PT, .24 1D/PT, .03 TD/PT
Shepard as a pass target averaged 8.14 Y/PT, .43 1D/PT, .04 TDs/PT
Passing the ball to Barkley was not very productive. I love him as a running back, and I want the Giants to run him into the ground the next 3 years on the ground the next 3 years.
But if they are going to pass the ball, especially in passing downs, get it downfield.