Its been 3 years now and enough time to give an accurate assessment of the offseason. So Dan Duggan of the Athletic gave a real nice look back. My concern isn't with the individual results.. that can be good or bad.. but the idea that the process or the logical thinking associated with these moves itself were bad..
Starting with the misconception that Eli had anything left.. DG has to take fault for this.. Either he believed it and convinced Mara or Mara hired him because DG said Eli still had it in him.. Either way Giants were screwed and impact from both a CAP perspective and the desicions made to provide him support were wrong..
Nate Solder signing turned out to be bad.. but we needed to do something so I can excuse that.. to a lesser extent I can excuse the same with Omameh.. Although that dude sucked all his life and Jags a team desperately looking for OL, had let him go..
Trading for Ogletree was bad.. worse was moving his salary to bonuses.. This had a longer lasting impact than the draft picks we traded for him.. The same with Solder.. The process or the logic used when we moved thier salary to bonuses was a bigger mistake than actually getting them..
Trading JPP.. This one is baffling.. you want to compete right now.. but you are trading away a premier DE who was good against the run and pass for a 3rd round pick? nothing about this make sense if you are trying to win with Eli and getting much worse players in Solder and Ogletree to help..
Drafting SB.. drafting him wasn't the problem.. he was one of the best prospects coming out.. problem was that 2nd pick that year was worth a lot.. Indy traded 3rd pick for what was a solid return.. add to it that the draft had a prospect who was also really highly ranked and played a position that we desperately needed.. Nelson was very close to being in the same range as SB.. and was a better long term solution as well as short term solution to help Eli suceed.. The thing that was even worse was that the giants were completely unwilling to listen to any offer.. DGs attitude as well as the speed at which they drafted Barkley shows that they had no interest in moving..
Extending Odell.. I kind of get the move.. he was a fan favourite.. and had it not been for that interview the Giants probably still have him and the offense was very dynamic with both SB and Odell..
Stewart.. I mean was there a reason to pay him more than the vet min? we paid him quite a bit more than that and I doubt anyone else would've paid him.. Everything associated with that move to build culture sounded stupid.. obviously no one would say that was a good move in hindsight but you didn't need hindsight for it.. it was a bad move before it was ever made..
Will Hernandez who everyone loved has pretty much been benched.. whats worse is that every LT who started next to him looked bad.. as soon as he missed a game AT started looking like his draft profile.. Gates also started improving..
Players that were let go were also good players.. and have out produced..
All this resulted in Giants having the most dead money in the books over the past 3 years.. The team couldn't fill holes and had tons of holes to fill.. We still have bad contracts on the books that BBI wants to end and eat the dead cap associated with them..
Examining the Giants’ 2018 ‘miscalculations’ and their ongoing impact - (
New Window )
It takes that long and patience to evaluate what happened..
Would you be saying that if the Giants were good?
We've been hearing for three years that 2018's decisions were part of a three year plan...that we couldn't assess until that point. Now that we're here we're supposed to say "the past is the past" and not grade it?
That just doesn't hold water. Now is the time to look back and assess how it worked out.
If hiring Gettleman was about Eli, they should have punted drafting a QB to 2020 and moved off both DG & Shurmur after 2019 and been in prime position to draft a QB in 2020. Drafting Jones in 2019 complimented everything.
If hiring Gettleman was about Eli, they should have punted drafting a QB to 2020 and moved off both DG & Shurmur after 2019 and been in prime position to draft a QB in 2020. Drafting Jones in 2019 complimented everything.
+1
yet they brought back Janoris who had been suspended in 2017. Regardless, if DG wanted to move on from a player who was approaching his 30s and was not exactly durable...that's his prerogative. But the return could have/should have been better.
If hiring Gettleman was about Eli, they should have punted drafting a QB to 2020 and moved off both DG & Shurmur after 2019 and been in prime position to draft a QB in 2020. Drafting Jones in 2019 complimented everything.
This was Ben's first bad season and his coach didn't bench him for a backup.. Eli was on his 3rd bad season by then.. The leash was much longer for Eli than any other QB in this day and age.. longer than Brady.. Longer than Peyton.. longer than Rodgers as after 2 above average season, the packers drafted a QB in the 1st round.. its been longer than any other QB..
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like it or not.
yet they brought back Janoris who had been suspended in 2017. Regardless, if DG wanted to move on from a player who was approaching his 30s and was not exactly durable...that's his prerogative. But the return could have/should have been better.
Eh, JPP was not exactly playing well at the time, and part of the transaction was cap relief. I was a bit surprised Jenkins didn't go too, but they were clearly trying to move him.
If hiring Gettleman was about Eli, they should have punted drafting a QB to 2020 and moved off both DG & Shurmur after 2019 and been in prime position to draft a QB in 2020. Drafting Jones in 2019 complimented everything.
Sean - assume you meant "complicated everything", correct?
If so, then I would violently agree with your above post in all aspects.
the Jets seemed to do ok sending out an un-signed Jamal Adams. Jalen Ramsey, Tunsil, Mack....
It adds fuel to the decision timing/resource allocation fire, imv. Seems to be no rhyme or reason sometimes.
If the plan was to win with Eli, wouldn’t using the 6th pick be a valuable asset to actually help them win with Eli? It made no sense. QB in 2018 or 2020 would have made sense, 2019 never did.
If the plan was to win with Eli, wouldn’t using the 6th pick be a valuable asset to actually help them win with Eli? It made no sense. QB in 2018 or 2020 would have made sense, 2019 never did.
They had 3 first round picks in 2019. Theoretically they could have drafted TJ Hockenson, AJ Brown, and DK Metcalf in that round. It's obviously hindsight, but had they committed to drafting weapons for Eli in that draft they would have been in better position to finish strong with Eli and hand a good offense off to his successor. Instead, it looks like we're about to invest in lesser offensive weapons now at greater cap cost.
Timing and resource allocation have been a colossal disaster, and continue to be.
Saquon Barkley is obviously a still a major asset on the team, but his future value hinges on a full recovery otherwise that pick is looking really bad.
I cannot think of one other positive contribution that occurred other than maybe finding Nick Gates.
Anybody?
Don't forget Nick Gates! If he makes it to the Hall of Fame you can always point back to that too.
I think the Jags swooped in last minute with a big offer and stole him away.
That sent DG into panic mode, and used that Norwell money on Soldier
I always said, if you are retaining Eli, go all in for chrissakes. Dont draft Jones, draft players that help Eli win. Either that or get rid of Eli, you believe in him or you don't. I thought that was big misstep and why I wanted DG gone.
All signs point to initiating another rebuild in 2022/2023.
All signs point to initiating another rebuild in 2022/2023.
Agreed, barring a drastic improvement in onfield performance from this team, I think we are headed toward another complete rebuild in the not to distant future.
Terps, no offense but this is just a gigantic word salad. In what world would the Giants not want to build around their QB and RB?
No, he wasn't a bad pick. He tore his fucking knee. We make the playoffs with him this year, no questions asked. And yeah, we make the playoffs in a shitty division, who cares. Barkley is an all world talent who makes our offense better.
Reese also passed on Ramczyck for Engram, Zack Martin for Beckham
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Mara and Gettleman have to justify keeping the current operation together (i.e. building around Jones and Barkley). So instead of making strategic decisions considering all options with the short and long term in mind, the decisions are probably being made through the prism of "how is this good for Jones and Barkley".
Terps, no offense but this is just a gigantic word salad. In what world would the Giants not want to build around their QB and RB?
But are there going to honestly and objectively evaluate those two players? I doubt it.
If Zach Wilson drops to 11, would they draft him? Probably not. Did they consider drafting Herbert last year? Probably not. Why would they... they've already got Jones.
If someone offers to trade picks for Barkley, will they consider it? Probably not... He's touched by God.
For Mara and Gettleman they can't just turn the ship around. They have to turn it around with Jones and Barkley. Otherwise they look like fools and Gettleman pays with his job (though that's not a certainty with how the Giants operate).
That's why the 2018 off-season is such a relevant discussion. It colors everything that happens now.
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In comment 15128024 Go Terps said:
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Mara and Gettleman have to justify keeping the current operation together (i.e. building around Jones and Barkley). So instead of making strategic decisions considering all options with the short and long term in mind, the decisions are probably being made through the prism of "how is this good for Jones and Barkley".
Terps, no offense but this is just a gigantic word salad. In what world would the Giants not want to build around their QB and RB?
But are there going to honestly and objectively evaluate those two players? I doubt it.
If Zach Wilson drops to 11, would they draft him? Probably not. Did they consider drafting Herbert last year? Probably not. Why would they... they've already got Jones.
If someone offers to trade picks for Barkley, will they consider it? Probably not... He's touched by God.
For Mara and Gettleman they can't just turn the ship around. They have to turn it around with Jones and Barkley. Otherwise they look like fools and Gettleman pays with his job (though that's not a certainty with how the Giants operate).
That's why the 2018 off-season is such a relevant discussion. It colors everything that happens now.
I'm sure if they thought Wilson was an incredible QB prospect, they would take him. He's not. He's a better version of Drew Lock, and in my opinion he's not a kid that could handle NY.
Trading picks for Barkley...ok...sure. What picks? You act like teams are offering a 1st rounder for him. Which pick? What is involved? And honestly, Barkley's 2018 and majority of 2019 are reason enough to believe that he's a superstar player. I mean...did we not watch him play? The sheer notion of him being off this team is like porn to some people, I don't understand it. We have him on the team, we will now make the team AROUND him better by drafting OTHER players, such as OL, receivers, etc. This isn't Madden where you just switch out your players every year. Yeah, if Barkley hadn't shown much and he was all potential and no results, you probably say OK maybe this guy just won't ever be good and you take a 2nd or 3rd rounder for him. Well, as it turns out when he's healthy he's pretty much a top 3-4 running back in the entire league. We need to stop this thing where we just look back and go oh well they should have done X instead, so we should trade him now. It makes no sense, whatsoever. Unless someone offers you a deal you cannot refuse, you keep Saquon Barkley.
Based on this thinking the Titans would have traded Derrick Henry after his first 2 or even third season. I mean hey, there was probably a "better" running back available or someone comparable, just get rid of him right?
No, he wasn't a bad pick. He tore his fucking knee. We make the playoffs with him this year, no questions asked. And yeah, we make the playoffs in a shitty division, who cares. Barkley is an all world talent who makes our offense better.
Really just a ridiculous post. Not able separate the difference between how fans view the pick versus the player.
Nobody wished an ACL team on Saquon either. You just hate those that don't see it your way.
Oh and by the way, those other teams in the division had a few big injuries as well including the winner who had to play like 4 QBs this season. So the "whoa is me" thing doesn't hold water.
The Colts took a three-time first-team All-Pro guard (No. 6 pick Quenton Nelson) and an excellent right tackle (No. 37 pick Braden Smith) with the first two picks from the Jets. They then traded the other second-round pick (No. 49) to the Eagles for the 52nd pick (edge rusher Kemoko Turay) and the 169th pick (running back Jordan Wilkins). They then used the 2019 second-round pick from the Jets (No. 34 overall) on cornerback Rock Ya-Sin. Turning the No. 3 pick into two stud offensive linemen, a starting cornerback, a rotational pass rusher and a backup running back is a master class in maximizing value.
Gettleman and Mara don’t view the Barkley pick as a mistake.
“I’m still happy that we have him,” Mara said last week. “I certainly expect him to be a Giant for a very long time.”
The bold is what Chris Ballard, GM, did for the Colts in ONE draft.
One pick behind the Giants in 2018.
Talking about playing chess...
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The other option was trading back. We’ll never know if Gettleman could have received the package the Jets sent the Colts for the No. 3 pick (the No. 6 pick, two second-round picks in 2018, one second-round pick in 2019). Maybe if Gettleman had a better poker face about his commitment to Manning and infatuation with Barkley, the Jets would have been compelled to trade up to No. 2 to avoid having the Giants beat them to Darnold. But Gettleman admitted to never seriously considering offers for the pick because he was so dead set on taking Barkley.
The Colts took a three-time first-team All-Pro guard (No. 6 pick Quenton Nelson) and an excellent right tackle (No. 37 pick Braden Smith) with the first two picks from the Jets. They then traded the other second-round pick (No. 49) to the Eagles for the 52nd pick (edge rusher Kemoko Turay) and the 169th pick (running back Jordan Wilkins). They then used the 2019 second-round pick from the Jets (No. 34 overall) on cornerback Rock Ya-Sin. Turning the No. 3 pick into two stud offensive linemen, a starting cornerback, a rotational pass rusher and a backup running back is a master class in maximizing value.
Gettleman and Mara don’t view the Barkley pick as a mistake.
“I’m still happy that we have him,” Mara said last week. “I certainly expect him to be a Giant for a very long time.”
The bold is what Chris Ballard, GM, did for the Colts in ONE draft.
One pick behind the Giants in 2018.
Talking about playing chess...
That's my point as well.. Barkley is a great players.. but he is exactly what I thought he would be minus the injury.. but the attitude and closing down other options because of a RB is something I am not happy with.. in a draft with 4 highly rater QBs you couldn't find a trade partner.. you also properly never evaluated the QBs cause you were so dedicated to Eli.. That's the part that bothers me.. the process, the methodology..
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The other option was trading back. We’ll never know if Gettleman could have received the package the Jets sent the Colts for the No. 3 pick (the No. 6 pick, two second-round picks in 2018, one second-round pick in 2019). Maybe if Gettleman had a better poker face about his commitment to Manning and infatuation with Barkley, the Jets would have been compelled to trade up to No. 2 to avoid having the Giants beat them to Darnold. But Gettleman admitted to never seriously considering offers for the pick because he was so dead set on taking Barkley.
The Colts took a three-time first-team All-Pro guard (No. 6 pick Quenton Nelson) and an excellent right tackle (No. 37 pick Braden Smith) with the first two picks from the Jets. They then traded the other second-round pick (No. 49) to the Eagles for the 52nd pick (edge rusher Kemoko Turay) and the 169th pick (running back Jordan Wilkins). They then used the 2019 second-round pick from the Jets (No. 34 overall) on cornerback Rock Ya-Sin. Turning the No. 3 pick into two stud offensive linemen, a starting cornerback, a rotational pass rusher and a backup running back is a master class in maximizing value.
Gettleman and Mara don’t view the Barkley pick as a mistake.
“I’m still happy that we have him,” Mara said last week. “I certainly expect him to be a Giant for a very long time.”
The bold is what Chris Ballard, GM, did for the Colts in ONE draft.
One pick behind the Giants in 2018.
Talking about playing chess...
Not to mention picking a guy named Darius Leonard at LB in 2018 as well. Just about as good a LB there is in the game today.
But on BBI the defenders will tell you don’t trade down for the sake of trading down.
I respect you admit this (a sentiment many Manning fans won’t admit) — but do realize that type of bad management is a slap in the face to the other players and coaches, who assumed management was operating in good faith to put forth the best team, not just celebrate Manning.
And also - there’s a notion going around that “well, if they let Eli walk in 2018 then we probably have another QB. Maybe Allen, maybe Herbert, etc.” well I hate to break it to everyone but there are quarterbacks in the draft every year that have talent and that can be championship QBs. Giants figured they could find one. Let’s hope they did.
That's a big assumption given they won more games this year without him than they had in each of his previous two seasons.
And the injury isn't an excuse...everyone was talking about running back injuries and short careers when they made this ridiculous pick.
To me putting any player above the team, where lots of players and coaches are scraping to stay employed, is pretty crummy.
I recall two things Eli said:
1. To Mike Francesa around 2017-2018 - "It's almost been like having two separate careers."
2. At Coughlin's farewell press conference - "We did well, but it could have been better."
Those are paraphrasing, but I'm very close to the exact words. I agree with those that say 2005-2012 were very special; but they did leave some business undone. It could have been better.
Barkley can feel free to start having a big impact in the win loss column at any time. I honestly can't wait for it.
Does this assume Dak wasn't healthy, the Cowboys OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles receiving corp wasn't healthy, etc.?
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If Barkley isn’t out for the year we easily win the nfc east this season.
Does this assume Dak wasn't healthy, the Cowboys OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles OL wasn't healthy, the Eagles receiving corp wasn't healthy, etc.?
Bad things only seem to happen to the Giants. Injuries, COVID, learning new systems... it's tough to win when you're at such a disadvantage.