https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020-offensive-line-rankings
This is not being talked about much but this should be by far the biggest concern for the offense next season. Considering the team is likely to cut Zeitler, it is perfectly reasonable to think that its possible that this unit could potentially even play worse next season. Gettleman seemed relatively content with this unit in his post season press confrence, which should raise extreme concern.
If you want to get a gauge of how important offensive line is, look at the lines ranked #32-21 and tell me how many of those teams made the playoffs? Even though I believe Jones has the talent to be a franchise quarterback, without a significant increase in play of the unit up front, there is very little reason to believe that his play will significantly improve. If left unsolved, this offensive line problem could cause a quarterback carrousel, ensuring offensive futility for years to come.
I used to like Collinsworth, but I've soured on him because he has legitimized PFF. Not to say they can't get there on day, but they are still far away from that and in the mean time people throwing around thesese scores like they mean anything drives me nuts.
I don't mind PFF, it but a tool, but football has so many moving parts that it is hard to be truly on target with ratings.
zeitler should 100% be cut. he's shown signs of really slowing down. spend that money on a younger better player
why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me
LOL. I remember they had our own Danny Clark as the 2nd best OLB in the NFL.
I used to like Collinsworth, but I've soured on him because he has legitimized PFF. Not to say they can't get there on day, but they are still far away from that and in the mean time people throwing around thesese scores like they mean anything drives me nuts.
Thats not true. Tampa went from #7 OL in the league to #5 in the league this year according to PFF after uprgrading with Wirfs at RT. Keep your facts straight.
What we know is:
1) the Giants couldn’t protect the QB well
2) the Giants couldn’t move the ball well in the air
3) the Giants were quite average pass blocking
4) the Giants moved the ball quite averagely on the ground
5) the Giants were the 2nd worst scoring team in the league
Some combination of play, talent, coaching, and play calling led to that. I’d be extremely surprised if one of those factors isn’t really bad line play.
By the way, the above was a joke.
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In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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Again - Richard Rodgers with his 24 catches and 2 TD's is their second ranked TE this season. Ahead of Darren Waller
I find that an absurd take on their part. Is there any explanation for how they arrive at that?
Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates will all be better next year as individuals, and more importantly even better than that as a unit.
I predict a major rise in the OL's overall performance in 2021, and that's without adding outside pieces, but simply developing the 5 guys already in house.
Yes, I am an optimist!
Unfortunately stats don't lie. The oline was heinous, 2nd most in sacks and pressures.
2nd to last in sack %
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-pct
Jones was 4th in the league, times sacked, and he missed multiple games.
I think one reason we looked better is bc Solder wasn't out there but if he's back next year it will be worse. Also, I think bc the NFL cut down on holding calls, the perceived performance of the line was that it got better but the reality is; it's the worst its ever been.
Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates will all be better next year as individuals, and more importantly even better than that as a unit.
I predict a major rise in the OL's overall performance in 2021, and that's without adding outside pieces, but simply developing the 5 guys already in house.
Yes, I am an optimist!
What if they insert ice skate Nate Solder back in the line lol? To your point, the browns went from a piss poor oline to the best in the league so I guess maybe we can do the same? I hope bc being bottom in every perceivable pass blocking stat category just doesn't cut it.
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What if they insert ice skate Nate Solder back in the line lol? To your point, the browns went from a piss poor oline to the best in the league so I guess maybe we can do the same? I hope bc being bottom in every perceivable pass blocking stat category just doesn't cut it.
Solder won't be on the 2021 Giants if Pat Traina of the LockedOn Giants podcast is right. She said he has lost a ton of muscle mass since he last played. She guessed he will retire.
And Richard Rodgers isn't an outlier. Chris Godwin was PFF's #1 WR last season. Will fuller is a top 10 WR the past two seasons. Clowney is their 12th ranked DE THIS SEASON. Taylor Moton is their 10th best T. Because they rank players doesn't make them correct.
I go by what people who are intimately familiar with grading their own players think of PFF and they almost all agree that it is for fan purposes only. When the topic of PFF comes up it gets laughed off. NFL teams don't make their internal grades public, but there have been responses to PFF grades that they aren't anywhere close to a margin of error.
Again - it is opinion put into a numerical format. Just because it has a scale doesn't mean it actually is a concrete figure.
Chris Godwin had a GREAT season last year by any measure. I'm sure there are good examples of PFF swings and misses, but that's not one.
I find that an absurd take on their part. Is there any explanation for how they arrive at that?
It is a result of the fact that PFF grades players on each play that they are on the field.
Rodgers produced what he produced in only 24% of offensive snaps. And I'd presume he was a good blocker as well.
The fact that PFF grades per play is something that always has to be kept in mind in translating their player grades to player value.
When it comes to rankings of the performances of a team units over the course of the year, this factor is not an issue because all of the teams are being graded on all snaps for the season.
Pff def gets things wrong but overall I find them to be pretty good. They do have Evan Engram as the worst tight end. Which to me seems pretty accurate.
I’d argue the line had some bright spots throughout the year, but really disappointed at the end. When it really mattered, the Giants couldn’t run the ball or pass protect.
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it. It doesn't matter if there aren't other people ranking the OL. Just because PFF does it - doesn't make it accurate.
And Richard Rodgers isn't an outlier. Chris Godwin was PFF's #1 WR last season. Will fuller is a top 10 WR the past two seasons. Clowney is their 12th ranked DE THIS SEASON. Taylor Moton is their 10th best T. Because they rank players doesn't make them correct.
I go by what people who are intimately familiar with grading their own players think of PFF and they almost all agree that it is for fan purposes only. When the topic of PFF comes up it gets laughed off. NFL teams don't make their internal grades public, but there have been responses to PFF grades that they aren't anywhere close to a margin of error.
Again - it is opinion put into a numerical format. Just because it has a scale doesn't mean it actually is a concrete figure.
Chris Godwin had a GREAT season last year by any measure. I'm sure there are good examples of PFF swings and misses, but that's not one.
Having a good season and being the #1 WR are two different things.
Godwin last season:
11th in receptions
44th in catch %
17th in targets
Michael Thomas had one of the best years ever for a WR. 149 receptions on 185 targets. 80% catch%. 1725 yards and he's not the #1 WR.
That's how PFF fails. They try to ascertain how a player does on each play without knowing the intended route or the offensive play. when the consensus #1 WR who had one of the best seasons ever is not the #1 in a ranking of the position - the model isn't working.
For people who analyze film, I wonder how many times over the course of the 14 games he played did this habit lead to a sack when the edge defender was otherwise pushed out of the play?
Is it between 5 and 10 times? None at all? It's a good question but it drives home the point again, nothing on the football field happens independent of other circumstances. Total team sport.
For people who analyze film, I wonder how many times over the course of the 14 games he played did this habit lead to a sack when the edge defender was otherwise pushed out of the play?
Is it between 5 and 10 times? None at all? It's a good question but it drives home the point again, nothing on the football field happens independent of other circumstances. Total team sport.
Very fair post.
Great sentiment. A fair analysis is probably to start with:
- the unit data (pressure %, sacks, yards before contact etc.)
- the production data (rush yards, pass yards, YPP, etc.)
- then the scoring data
Only the staff can assess the ultimate root causes, but when you're at the bottom of the pack in the unit, production, and scoring measures -- it's hard to argue any group did well.
Especially when those trends hold true across the entire year.
Having a good season and being the #1 WR are two different things.
Godwin last season:
11th in receptions
44th in catch %
17th in targets
Michael Thomas had one of the best years ever for a WR. 149 receptions on 185 targets. 80% catch%. 1725 yards and he's not the #1 WR.
That's how PFF fails. They try to ascertain how a player does on each play without knowing the intended route or the offensive play. when the consensus #1 WR who had one of the best seasons ever is not the #1 in a ranking of the position - the model isn't working.
This is an absolutely great example. I get to see Godwin almost every week and that year he was a benefit of having Jameis lock onto him every play. I actually bet my friend here 100 bucks Evans has a better year this year with Brady at QB and won that running away. Guy is a good player, but it's hard to differentiate what is going because of the things around him. Risky to sign that guy to an elite deal.
Thomas on the other hand, combined with Kamara, extended Brees career a year longer than it should have been. You can make the argument that he is arguably the best WR in the league. Guy catches everything around him and Brees's accuracy was running more on reputation than reality the last few years.
I don't think anyone would argue - irrespective of PFF grades - that the Giants offensive line was anything short of below average over the full course of the season.
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Jones is a known drifter back there. We all know his pocket awareness needs improvement and he continues to fade in the pocket rather than step into it.
For people who analyze film, I wonder how many times over the course of the 14 games he played did this habit lead to a sack when the edge defender was otherwise pushed out of the play?
Is it between 5 and 10 times? None at all? It's a good question but it drives home the point again, nothing on the football field happens independent of other circumstances. Total team sport.
Very fair post.
This was an issue early in the season, but something that was cleaned up in the second half. The only game I can remember him doing this was the Cards game, and we can pretty much write that off because of the ankle. Just trying to avoid getting rolled up on. He did a much better job of stepping up in second half of season and thats even more impressive when you think about how bad Lemuiex is in pass protection.
I don't think anyone would argue - irrespective of PFF grades - that the Giants offensive line was anything short of below average over the full course of the season.
It's hard to imagine they would be 31st because half the season they were middle of the road. Although the first couple weeks was as bad as an offensive line I've seen all season so maybe that pushed us way down.
We were 6-10.
We were 31st in scoring.
The OL did not play well.
I would guess if you could see internal grades there would be a very distinct difference between run and pass grades for the offensive line.
We have Joe fan who NEEDS (desperately?) to know more than the experts and full timer's. PFF employs full timers trained individuals who spend hours poring over replays. The fan needs to feel he knows more from his two hours per week of watching football, from his experience as back up starter at Smallsville High twenty years ago, and the hour he spends with other know nothings on a blogging sight.
PFF is, of course flawed, every system is, but it offers more objectivity and more technical input than the average fan who - in his opinion - knows more than any coordinator and more than any objective rating system.
I always feel sorry for the "experts" who put forth opinion as fact, who degrade the professionals for self aggrandizement and I'm reminded of David Thoreau's quote: Most men live life's of quiet desperation".
For people who analyze film, I wonder how many times over the course of the 14 games he played did this habit lead to a sack when the edge defender was otherwise pushed out of the play?
Is it between 5 and 10 times? None at all? It's a good question but it drives home the point again, nothing on the football field happens independent of other circumstances. Total team sport.
Good post.
I agree -I also wonder how many times DJ missed a call from a blitzer OR DJ/Gates called out a protection change the OL missed it?
It perplexed me how many sacks DJ took when the pressure was right in his face. It makes me think maybe he called a protection change so he didn't expect it coming...or he just misread the defense...
I admit - my football IQ is not to the level where I can tell the difference.
The majority of their evaluators are not "trained individuals". I personally know two people who review for them and the process they went through was to submit an online application. Neither has coached on any level. They are fans. You could literally have BBI'ers become PFF reviewers.
And spending hours poring over replays means absolutely nothing in relation to assigning accurate evaluations. Most of us are fans who have watched years of football being played. Do we have some sort of special insight into the plays called? Do we know what a plyer is supposed to do and if they carried that out correctly? Heck, we couldn't even have a unanimous view that the Brown who fumbled at the goalline last week did it before crossing the end zone line.
The biggest mistake people can be made in discussing PFF is taking it as being based on a level of expertise, that is providing an output that is tangible. When two people can watch the same player and one give that guy a 79 grade and teh other a 54 grade, the system isn't just flawed - it isn't worth presenting as accurate of anything.
Yet time and again - it is referenced here as being indicative of something.
Having a good season and being the #1 WR are two different things.
Godwin last season:
11th in receptions
44th in catch %
17th in targets
Michael Thomas had one of the best years ever for a WR. 149 receptions on 185 targets. 80% catch%. 1725 yards and he's not the #1 WR.
That's how PFF fails. They try to ascertain how a player does on each play without knowing the intended route or the offensive play. when the consensus #1 WR who had one of the best seasons ever is not the #1 in a ranking of the position - the model isn't working.
Chris Godwin was...
17th in targets (among receivers)
1st in plays over 20 yards
1st in yards after catch
4th in catch % (minimum of 50 targets)
Footballoutsiders.com had Michael Thomas as the number one wide receiver of 2019. Chris Godwin was their number two receiver. However, on a per play (which I think is what PFF does) basis, Chris Godwin was their number one wide receiver, with or without opponent adjustments. Godwin’s 2019 season was a great season. Maybe PFF has to do a better job of giving more credence to the accumulation of stats or clearly differentiate between the two like fo.com does.
The biggest mistake people can be made in discussing PFF is taking it as being based on a level of expertise, that is providing an output that is tangible. When two people can watch the same player and one give that guy a 79 grade and teh other a 54 grade, the system isn't just flawed - it isn't worth presenting as accurate of anything.
Yet time and again - it is referenced here as being indicative of something.
This is why I think there is hope for PFF one day, but have no idea how they make it financially.
You'd need to get scouts or coaches to jump ship from NFL. Is this financially feasible? Possibly, I don't think scouts are paid all that much and neither are coaches at the lower levels. But part of the allure for them is the travel and everything that comes with being a scout or coach. Not to mention part of the reason they can do what they do is because of the inside information that they are able to obtain from being a part of the league.
Once PFF gets staffs full of ex NFL guys then they'll start to gain some credibility. Just not sure if thats financially feasable for a company that offers very little for NFL teams.
The thing is there is certainly a business opportunity for them in this aspect, but how do you get it from point A to point D is the real question, unless investors want to pour some money into it.
THe play that instantly jumps to the front of my mind is the Golden sack in the AZ game. He was completely unblocked and was coming right at him...in today's NFL - I don't see a bunch of those kinds of sacks.
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I find that an absurd take on their part. Is there any explanation for how they arrive at that?
It is a result of the fact that PFF grades players on each play that they are on the field.
Rodgers produced what he produced in only 24% of offensive snaps. And I'd presume he was a good blocker as well.
The fact that PFF grades per play is something that always has to be kept in mind in translating their player grades to player value.
When it comes to rankings of the performances of a team units over the course of the year, this factor is not an issue because all of the teams are being graded on all snaps for the season.
Makes sense, thanks Shyster