Giants Offensive Line Ranked #31 for 2020

-The Resume, December 2017

The OL did get better after the first half of the year. That said, they were still pretty bad although they ran the ball well during that winning streak against some good defenses that are tough to run on.

Two points. People seem to think that it’s a given that Ziegler gets cut. I think it’s up in the air. Neither Lemioux or Hernandez are what you call quality starters but neither is Ziegler and he’s making way more money. That said, just plugging those 2 journeymen types in not an upgrade over Zeiger. Which brings to my second point. Upgrading the OL in the draft or free agency is not a luxury. OL is a big need and I hope they bring in an interior lineman and a RT (unless they are convinced Peart is ready to start which I doubt is true).

with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year

why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me

Its somehow picked up momentum to the extent that in some posts it reads as a foregone conclusion. I guess its a combination of fans looking for possible cap space, his salary, and the OL being below average overall but he's probably the best/most consistent lineman they have.

It just doesn't make sense to me. You either keep him or trade him. Those are the only two options. OL are at a premium. Even if you get a 7th that is better than flat out cutting him. If you keep him than you either play his contract out or tweak it. I just don't see what cutting him does. Actually, cutting him opens up a hole on the OL that needs to be filled. What is the cost savings again, $6 mil? That means a replacement needs to be had for that or less. I know some will say we have Lemieux and Hernandez but that is a clear downgrade to me.

In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me

Do you have a better way to gauge offensive line play? There are no statistics for offensive linemen, we are not working with very much. Are you perhaps studying film of our offensive line? That would be a better way to judge it. And lets be clear here: there clearly is a large positive correlation between the PFF ranking of line play and team success given that the 12 worst ranked all did not make the postseason. While obviously imperfect, to say it is all nonsense is simply ignoring the evidence.

And the toughest defensive schedule.

Glaring improvement was seen....I think we can say, we are set at LT and Center going forward.

Several young players.....might be longterm replacement if growth is seen
But the OL is on its way.....

So I suspect....your assumption of getting worse even if Zeitler is cut is wrong.
Now, why would he get cut if they are not satisfied with replacement seems foolhearty.

In comment 15128287 j_rud said:

Quote:

Its somehow picked up momentum to the extent that in some posts it reads as a foregone conclusion. I guess its a combination of fans looking for possible cap space, his salary, and the OL being below average overall but he's probably the best/most consistent lineman they have.

Cap space. 12 million savings with a 2 mil cap hit.

just seems like BS. They improved a lot during the year and the games we won were because of their play.

In comment 15128290 computahfolks99 said:

Quote:

In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me Do you have a better way to gauge offensive line play? There are no statistics for offensive linemen, we are not working with very much. Are you perhaps studying film of our offensive line? That would be a better way to judge it. And lets be clear here: there clearly is a large positive correlation between the PFF ranking of line play and team success given that the 12 worst ranked all did not make the postseason. While obviously imperfect, to say it is all nonsense is simply ignoring the evidence.

I say this whether PFF portrays someone as positive or negative. all of it is crap.

I'm not sure what you mean by "is there a better way" to judge the OL. Focusing on one that consistently has gotten things wrong isn't good by any means either.

NFL people don't even find PFF directionally correct, so the idea that any data is good data doesn't work - and that's ignoring the obvious point that it isn't even data. It is opinion put into a numerical scale.

Again - Richard Rodgers with his 24 catches and 2 TD's is their second ranked TE this season. Ahead of Darren Waller

PFF is a load of crap and I would say that even if we were rated highly in any area..

.

In comment 15128297 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

In comment 15128290 computahfolks99 said: Quote: In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me Do you have a better way to gauge offensive line play? There are no statistics for offensive linemen, we are not working with very much. Are you perhaps studying film of our offensive line? That would be a better way to judge it. And lets be clear here: there clearly is a large positive correlation between the PFF ranking of line play and team success given that the 12 worst ranked all did not make the postseason. While obviously imperfect, to say it is all nonsense is simply ignoring the evidence. I say this whether PFF portrays someone as positive or negative. all of it is crap. I'm not sure what you mean by "is there a better way" to judge the OL. Focusing on one that consistently has gotten things wrong isn't good by any means either. NFL people don't even find PFF directionally correct, so the idea that any data is good data doesn't work - and that's ignoring the obvious point that it isn't even data. It is opinion put into a numerical scale. Again - Richard Rodgers with his 24 catches and 2 TD's is their second ranked TE this season. Ahead of Darren Waller

Saying it is all crap is absurd. If you do not notice a correlation between those PFF rankings and the offensive success of those respective teams then you clearly either did not even look at it or have such a strong confirmation bias against PFF that you willfully ignore the evidence presented to you. In regards to the Richard Rogers thing: he is an outlier. There are outliers in everything. The relationship between PFF grades and player performance is not a 100% direct correlation but it is certainly a positive correlation and better than randomness. And I will restate it in different terms: Do you have something other than PFF grades that can give us an indication of how well the offensive line played this year?

it. It doesn't matter if there aren't other people ranking the OL. Just because PFF does it - doesn't make it accurate.

And Richard Rodgers isn't an outlier. Chris Godwin was PFF's #1 WR last season. Will fuller is a top 10 WR the past two seasons. Clowney is their 12th ranked DE THIS SEASON. Taylor Moton is their 10th best T. Because they rank players doesn't make them correct.

I go by what people who are intimately familiar with grading their own players think of PFF and they almost all agree that it is for fan purposes only. When the topic of PFF comes up it gets laughed off. NFL teams don't make their internal grades public, but there have been responses to PFF grades that they aren't anywhere close to a margin of error.

Again - it is opinion put into a numerical format. Just because it has a scale doesn't mean it actually is a concrete figure.

In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me

Did you see the QBRs from the Ravens/Buffalo game (higher the better - of course).

Allen received a 51. LJax received a 56.

Try getting your head around that one, too...

And I'm typically a fan of QBR.

And what I saw was a horrific line the first 8 weeks, and a much better line the second half of the season. There’s a reason that we were able to run effectively the second half of the year. It’s not because Gallman is Barry Sanders. The record speaks for itself, 1-7 and then 5-3 to close it out. The defense did play terrific but we had to score points and sustain drives when we didn’t to win those games as well. We have a lot of young lineman with the exception of Zeitler. They will continue to get better. Add a few playmaker receivers and it takes pressure off of Jones, the RB’s and the line. The more threats you have the more defenses have to respect you.

PFF is trash, I don’t believe 90% of the crap I read from them.

something hilarious from PFF - see how they respond when they give players a season ending grade that exceeds any of their actual in-game grades. They say they have the discretion to raise or lower grades for different formats.

They basically make shit up. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't take the top offenses this year and just list their OL as the top rated. They've done similar things before. even they admit their numerical scale is flexible.

In comment 15128317 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

it. It doesn't matter if there aren't other people ranking the OL. Just because PFF does it - doesn't make it accurate. And Richard Rodgers isn't an outlier. Chris Godwin was PFF's #1 WR last season. Will fuller is a top 10 WR the past two seasons. Clowney is their 12th ranked DE THIS SEASON. Taylor Moton is their 10th best T. Because they rank players doesn't make them correct. I go by what people who are intimately familiar with grading their own players think of PFF and they almost all agree that it is for fan purposes only. When the topic of PFF comes up it gets laughed off. NFL teams don't make their internal grades public, but there have been responses to PFF grades that they aren't anywhere close to a margin of error. Again - it is opinion put into a numerical format. Just because it has a scale doesn't mean it actually is a concrete figure.

Whoah....you mean NFL teams dont use PFF?! Fan purposes only?? I think you're the one who is not getting it. We are FANS. We are NOT part of an NFL scouting department. No shit PFF can be very wonky with its grading. I've noticed you still haven't named me that alternative to PFF grades for juding the o-line. I'm going to take a wild guess and say...YOU DONT HAVE ONE! Given that we are NFL fans who do not have access to an NFL teams internal grades on players, what else should we use? Should we just ignore the offensive line totally. As innacurate as PFF can be, I'd wager that its a hell of a lot more accurate than the average fan's gut.

One of the positive sign of this season was the improvement of the o line. There is hope after all.

Now, as an aggregate of the past eight/nine seasons or so sure, this o line was a sad joke. Endless rushes for loss, ruining the end of Eli's tenure with him getting beat like a drum and always facing 2nd and 3rd and forever, but methinks those days. are over.

The o line is at least league average as a unit now, that is saying something, since it was near league worst for years.

The Seahawks were the best team the Giants beat this year, and in the early second half of the game the Giants committed to the run and basically ran it down their throat for scores. This I have not seen in multiple seasons.

Thomas improved and looks good, and Gates looks real fucking good. The Giants might actually have a center since Baas' injury plagued campaign in the 2011 Super Bowl run. It has been one clown after another at the position. The o line review on this site lays it out very well.

Fuck this ranking, this was not the second worst o line in the league. D got better too.

they were a middle-tier unit that showed flashes of excellent play.

I'm very encouraged by what I saw, and think there's a real chance they're a top 10 unit this year. All these young players coming back stronger and more experienced. And I actually have faith in the player development under Judge.

PFF aside, the Giants did offensive line was pretty bad.

On the pass protection front, they were really bad. And it didn't get better over the year, it was bad all the way through.

- 1st in pressure percentage
- 2nd highest number of sacks
- 6th in QB hits

On the run blocking front, they were pretty average:

- 15th in yards before contact
- 14th in yards before contact per rush

This is a big part of how you end the second worst scoring offense in the NFL.

In comment 15128294 JoeyBigBlue said:

Quote:

In comment 15128287 j_rud said: Quote: Its somehow picked up momentum to the extent that in some posts it reads as a foregone conclusion. I guess its a combination of fans looking for possible cap space, his salary, and the OL being below average overall but he's probably the best/most consistent lineman they have. Cap space. 12 million savings with a 2 mil cap hit.

I get the cap space, but theres more to it than that. Hes an above average player, the only one you can say that about besides Gates. Cutting him creates cap space but also creates a hole. Theres also continuity to consider. And Hernandez isnt a long term solution either. The goal isnt to accumulate cap space, its to win football games. Zeitler can help them do that.

PFF accurately predicts team success with it's o-line ratings because it uses team success as a factor to grade o-lines.

John Jerry was our best OL whenever he was here. They are totally useless. Our team was a tale of 2 halves. The 1-7 first half which was to be expected with a young team with new coaches and no practice time or preseason games to learn. The second half being 5-3 making Wayne Gallman look like a great RB replacing Barkley. They figured things out and learned under a great head coach. This off season will be huge.

Giants QBs were sacked 2nd most of any team in the NFL.

Giants QBs were pressured 4th most of any team in the NFL.

When accounting for the number of dropbacks, Giants QBs faced the highest pressure rate of any team in the NFL.

Run blocking was much better. Giants ranked 14th in yards before contact per attempt.

In comment 15128294 JoeyBigBlue said:

Quote:

In comment 15128287 j_rud said: Quote: Its somehow picked up momentum to the extent that in some posts it reads as a foregone conclusion. I guess its a combination of fans looking for possible cap space, his salary, and the OL being below average overall but he's probably the best/most consistent lineman they have. Cap space. 12 million savings with a 2 mil cap hit.

Then subtract the cost of his replacement. So you cut one of your best Olineman to save 3 mil? Not smart if you ask me.

is making 10 million. I'd rather pay Zietler the 12 million.

The Giants pass protection was often terrible the last quarter of the year as well.

Game 13 | 8 sacks, 14 pressures
Game 14 | 1 sack, 7 pressures
Game 15 | 6 sacks, 20 pressures
Game 16 | 2 sacks, 7 pressures

there are other non-PFF stats like pressure percentage which also demonstrate that the Giants O-line was horrendous this previous season. From watching the games this season, I got the sense that this offensive line was terrible. All of these statistics have confirmed what I saw with my eyes. I get the sense that a lot of Giants fans are tired of talking about the o-line given that it has been a problem for almost a full decade at this point. They want to just cover their eyes and pretend that it's a league-average line and instead clamor for a better QB and/or playmakers, both of which are subservient needs to an offensive line. Well I've got news for those of you who think like that: The oline still SUCKS.

In comment 15128353 christian said:

Quote:

The Giants pass protection was often terrible the last quarter of the year as well. Game 13 | 8 sacks, 14 pressures Game 14 | 1 sack, 7 pressures Game 15 | 6 sacks, 20 pressures Game 16 | 2 sacks, 7 pressures

Do you think Jones missing some games and being virtually immobile, played into that somewhat?

ROTF LMAO.

Sure, but those trends extend the whole year. There was never a meaningful stretch where the pass protection didn’t stink the entire year.

And more critical, during the most important stretch of the year against AZ, Cleveland, Baltimore — the Giants couldn’t get the run game going either.

In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me

It gives you a sense of things plus the eye test. Richard Rodgers played about 100 total snaps. Sort by snap percentage and the entire tight end ranking looks a lot different

Kelce
Waller
Kittle
Mo Allie Cox
Goedert
Trautman
Andrews
Hockenson

The Giants had an average run blocking line and a pretty bad pass protecting line all year.

I understand the optimism that the young players will develop, and with another year together continuity will be a factor. That’s a fair prediction— but in terms of performance the line was pretty bad in 2020. The unit data, the production data, and the scoring data all support that.

In comment 15128366 Tuckrule said:

Quote:

In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me It gives you a sense of things plus the eye test. Richard Rodgers played about 100 total snaps. Sort by snap percentage and the entire tight end ranking looks a lot different Kelce Waller Kittle Mo Allie Cox Goedert Trautman Andrews Hockenson

Looks different and still not all that great. No Tonyon. No Smith. No Fant. No Henry. But that's the thing - they always have glaring misses. Last season, look at some of the historic totals put up by WR's and their #1 WR was Chris Godwin.

the 31st ranking is more right than wrong. The rest of their rankings don't look out of whack either.

Giant fans should be pleased that they found a few more pieces this season and that the OL was generally looking better in the second half of the year. Pass protection still a sore point though.

And fmic stop telling others how to post...that's a no no.

fucking chucklehead is at it again. How's the hunt for dep going, Ace?

I know Thomas was playing hurt, and he appears to have the right attitude and toughness. Wirfs has been very good for Tampa though and it was reportedly a toss up between Wirfs & Thomas.

I was uber worried about Thomas at the beginning of the season, but he got better as the season progressed. From all I've read, he seems like a good kid who is very coachable so I'm optimistic about his future. Gates was a sensation. Who saw that coming?

Wirfs had a much better season than Thomas. Granted he was playing RT on a much better line but there was no comparison. And there was no comparison between Thomas and Becton or Wills. Thomas got better as the year went one but I remember seeing him get destroyed in the Arizona game. And Arizona is not a top defense. On the plus side, Thomas is only 21 and looks to be a hard worker and smart and was possibly playing hurt. But, I don’t see why we should be overly confident about his game.

The Bucs went from one of the worst to the best and they didn't change anything except RT. The difference is they didn't understand that Jameis held the ball and rated them awful in pass and rated them higher in run this year than they deserve due to the backs.

I used to like Collinsworth, but I've soured on him because he has legitimized PFF. Not to say they can't get there on day, but they are still far away from that and in the mean time people throwing around thesese scores like they mean anything drives me nuts.

or the TE or RB missing blocks? And we know that all happened! Is every sack attributed to the Oline? It’s easy to throw one round number at the Oline, however it needs to be broken down better. Regardless of final numbers, this Oline looks much improved and should only be taking steps forward from here on out.

... that we were cutting Zeitler. I keep seeing this posted. Why in the world would the Giants cut Zeitler?

and I don't think we get to see those like EVER do we?

I don't mind PFF, it but a tool, but football has so many moving parts that it is hard to be truly on target with ratings.

and it certainly not fixed. i was unimpressed with lemieux as he is HORRIBLE in pass pro. it's yet to be seen if peart is anything more than a backup

zeitler should 100% be cut. he's shown signs of really slowing down. spend that money on a younger better player

In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me

LOL. I remember they had our own Danny Clark as the 2nd best OLB in the NFL.

In comment 15128402 Zeke's Alibi said:

Quote:

The Bucs went from one of the worst to the best and they didn't change anything except RT. The difference is they didn't understand that Jameis held the ball and rated them awful in pass and rated them higher in run this year than they deserve due to the backs. I used to like Collinsworth, but I've soured on him because he has legitimized PFF. Not to say they can't get there on day, but they are still far away from that and in the mean time people throwing around thesese scores like they mean anything drives me nuts.

Thats not true. Tampa went from #7 OL in the league to #5 in the league this year according to PFF after uprgrading with Wirfs at RT. Keep your facts straight.

Without the benefit of coaches analysis — there’s no way to know what the mix of blame is.

What we know is:

1) the Giants couldn’t protect the QB well
2) the Giants couldn’t move the ball well in the air
3) the Giants were quite average pass blocking
4) the Giants moved the ball quite averagely on the ground
5) the Giants were the 2nd worst scoring team in the league

Some combination of play, talent, coaching, and play calling led to that. I’d be extremely surprised if one of those factors isn’t really bad line play.

3) quite average *run blocking*

just not consistently

Was ranked 31st in yards per game so not surprising the line was a big reason. Gettleman’s hog mollies have been the three little pigs

At least if we were 32, then only way to go would be up. Now we still have room to fall.

In comment 15128525 SomeFan said:

Quote:

At least if we were 32, then only way to go would be up. Now we still have room to fall.

By the way, the above was a joke.

In comment 15128297 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

In comment 15128290 computahfolks99 said: Quote: In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: Again - Richard Rodgers with his 24 catches and 2 TD's is their second ranked TE this season. Ahead of Darren Waller

I find that an absurd take on their part. Is there any explanation for how they arrive at that?

the unit was deplorable throughout the year.

I think the defense was ranked 31st last year, then added 3 key pieces and a great coach, and voilá.

Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates will all be better next year as individuals, and more importantly even better than that as a unit.

I predict a major rise in the OL's overall performance in 2021, and that's without adding outside pieces, but simply developing the 5 guys already in house.

Yes, I am an optimist!

In comment 15128295 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:

Quote:

just seems like BS. They improved a lot during the year and the games we won were because of their play.

Unfortunately stats don't lie. The oline was heinous, 2nd most in sacks and pressures.

2nd to last in sack %
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-pct

Jones was 4th in the league, times sacked, and he missed multiple games.

I think one reason we looked better is bc Solder wasn't out there but if he's back next year it will be worse. Also, I think bc the NFL cut down on holding calls, the perceived performance of the line was that it got better but the reality is; it's the worst its ever been.

In comment 15128547 BelieveJJ said:

Quote:

I think the defense was ranked 31st last year, then added 3 key pieces and a great coach, and voilá. Thomas, Lemieux, and Gates will all be better next year as individuals, and more importantly even better than that as a unit. I predict a major rise in the OL's overall performance in 2021, and that's without adding outside pieces, but simply developing the 5 guys already in house. Yes, I am an optimist!

What if they insert ice skate Nate Solder back in the line lol? To your point, the browns went from a piss poor oline to the best in the league so I guess maybe we can do the same? I hope bc being bottom in every perceivable pass blocking stat category just doesn't cut it.

In comment 15128586 The Truth said:

Quote:

In comment 15128547 BelieveJJ said: Quote: What if they insert ice skate Nate Solder back in the line lol? To your point, the browns went from a piss poor oline to the best in the league so I guess maybe we can do the same? I hope bc being bottom in every perceivable pass blocking stat category just doesn't cut it.

Solder won't be on the 2021 Giants if Pat Traina of the LockedOn Giants podcast is right. She said he has lost a ton of muscle mass since he last played. She guessed he will retire.

In comment 15128317 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

it. It doesn't matter if there aren't other people ranking the OL. Just because PFF does it - doesn't make it accurate. And Richard Rodgers isn't an outlier. Chris Godwin was PFF's #1 WR last season. Will fuller is a top 10 WR the past two seasons. Clowney is their 12th ranked DE THIS SEASON. Taylor Moton is their 10th best T. Because they rank players doesn't make them correct. I go by what people who are intimately familiar with grading their own players think of PFF and they almost all agree that it is for fan purposes only. When the topic of PFF comes up it gets laughed off. NFL teams don't make their internal grades public, but there have been responses to PFF grades that they aren't anywhere close to a margin of error. Again - it is opinion put into a numerical format. Just because it has a scale doesn't mean it actually is a concrete figure.

Chris Godwin had a GREAT season last year by any measure. I'm sure there are good examples of PFF swings and misses, but that's not one.

In comment 15128527 montanagiant said:

Quote:

I find that an absurd take on their part. Is there any explanation for how they arrive at that?

It is a result of the fact that PFF grades players on each play that they are on the field.

Rodgers produced what he produced in only 24% of offensive snaps. And I'd presume he was a good blocker as well.

The fact that PFF grades per play is something that always has to be kept in mind in translating their player grades to player value.

When it comes to rankings of the performances of a team units over the course of the year, this factor is not an issue because all of the teams are being graded on all snaps for the season.

could have both improved in performance over the final games of the season AND still remained among the league's worst units overall for the entire season.

For example you mention tonyan. Overall he isn’t a very good tight end. He’s a good Reciecer at the tight end position but his blocking grades are putrid. Well below average. Overall tonyan is a 68. Kaden smith is a 66. They are basically opposites. Kaden Smith good blocking grades poorer grades as a receiver.

Pff def gets things wrong but overall I find them to be pretty good. They do have Evan Engram as the worst tight end. Which to me seems pretty accurate.

saves $12M, and they need to resign Williams, that's why it's being discussed. Zeigler is WAY over payed and north of 30, why wouldn't he be a cap cut consideration???

In comment 15128616 eclipz928 said:

Quote:

could have both improved in performance over the final games of the season AND still remained among the league's worst units overall for the entire season.

I’d argue the line had some bright spots throughout the year, but really disappointed at the end. When it really mattered, the Giants couldn’t run the ball or pass protect.

I appreciate the OPs point that, yes the OL still needs work, and if you want to rank them #31 feel free. Hell rank them #684 for all I care. But try to look at the issue objectively. Thomas at LT, Lemeieux/Hernandez at G and Gates at C are all cost controlled and average to above average players. I get that Zeitlers numbers make him an easy target in cap reduction, BUT who are you getting to replace him, how much are you paying that replacement and what level of play are you expecting. Zeitler has experience with the group and PERHAPS they can restructure(my preference). I don't think they should bring back Fleming. I think you see if Solder is coming back, you try to restructure him and go with Peart as the swing for now. I think those moves are reasonable and would hopefully help us fill other holes via FA without leaving us lacking on the line. Yes I saw enough improvement from our 31st ranked OL to bring most of them back. I believe SB returning, plus an additional WR or TE talent will help improve that line.

In comment 15128614 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

Quote:

In comment 15128317 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: it. It doesn't matter if there aren't other people ranking the OL. Just because PFF does it - doesn't make it accurate. And Richard Rodgers isn't an outlier. Chris Godwin was PFF's #1 WR last season. Will fuller is a top 10 WR the past two seasons. Clowney is their 12th ranked DE THIS SEASON. Taylor Moton is their 10th best T. Because they rank players doesn't make them correct. I go by what people who are intimately familiar with grading their own players think of PFF and they almost all agree that it is for fan purposes only. When the topic of PFF comes up it gets laughed off. NFL teams don't make their internal grades public, but there have been responses to PFF grades that they aren't anywhere close to a margin of error. Again - it is opinion put into a numerical format. Just because it has a scale doesn't mean it actually is a concrete figure. Chris Godwin had a GREAT season last year by any measure. I'm sure there are good examples of PFF swings and misses, but that's not one.

Having a good season and being the #1 WR are two different things.

Godwin last season:
11th in receptions
44th in catch %
17th in targets

Michael Thomas had one of the best years ever for a WR. 149 receptions on 185 targets. 80% catch%. 1725 yards and he's not the #1 WR.

That's how PFF fails. They try to ascertain how a player does on each play without knowing the intended route or the offensive play. when the consensus #1 WR who had one of the best seasons ever is not the #1 in a ranking of the position - the model isn't working.

Jones is a known drifter back there. We all know his pocket awareness needs improvement and he continues to fade in the pocket rather than step into it.

For people who analyze film, I wonder how many times over the course of the 14 games he played did this habit lead to a sack when the edge defender was otherwise pushed out of the play?

Is it between 5 and 10 times? None at all? It's a good question but it drives home the point again, nothing on the football field happens independent of other circumstances. Total team sport.

In comment 15128692 Chris684 said:

Quote:

Jones is a known drifter back there. We all know his pocket awareness needs improvement and he continues to fade in the pocket rather than step into it. For people who analyze film, I wonder how many times over the course of the 14 games he played did this habit lead to a sack when the edge defender was otherwise pushed out of the play? Is it between 5 and 10 times? None at all? It's a good question but it drives home the point again, nothing on the football field happens independent of other circumstances. Total team sport.

Very fair post.

In comment 15128692 Chris684 said:

Quote:

Nothing on the football field happens independent of other circumstances. Total team sport.

Great sentiment. A fair analysis is probably to start with:

- the unit data (pressure %, sacks, yards before contact etc.)
- the production data (rush yards, pass yards, YPP, etc.)
- then the scoring data

Only the staff can assess the ultimate root causes, but when you're at the bottom of the pack in the unit, production, and scoring measures -- it's hard to argue any group did well.

Especially when those trends hold true across the entire year.

In comment 15128670 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

In comment 15128614 shockeyisthebest8056 said: Having a good season and being the #1 WR are two different things. Godwin last season: 11th in receptions 44th in catch % 17th in targets Michael Thomas had one of the best years ever for a WR. 149 receptions on 185 targets. 80% catch%. 1725 yards and he's not the #1 WR. That's how PFF fails. They try to ascertain how a player does on each play without knowing the intended route or the offensive play. when the consensus #1 WR who had one of the best seasons ever is not the #1 in a ranking of the position - the model isn't working.

This is an absolutely great example. I get to see Godwin almost every week and that year he was a benefit of having Jameis lock onto him every play. I actually bet my friend here 100 bucks Evans has a better year this year with Brady at QB and won that running away. Guy is a good player, but it's hard to differentiate what is going because of the things around him. Risky to sign that guy to an elite deal.

Thomas on the other hand, combined with Kamara, extended Brees career a year longer than it should have been. You can make the argument that he is arguably the best WR in the league. Guy catches everything around him and Brees's accuracy was running more on reputation than reality the last few years.

who blame the offensive line and the pressure Jones faced this year as the reason his stats were so poor. I would expect most of them would come to the exact same sentiment - that the Giants line was one of the worst in the league this year when it comes to pass protection.

I don't think anyone would argue - irrespective of PFF grades - that the Giants offensive line was anything short of below average over the full course of the season.

In comment 15128728 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 15128692 Chris684 said: Quote: Jones is a known drifter back there. We all know his pocket awareness needs improvement and he continues to fade in the pocket rather than step into it. For people who analyze film, I wonder how many times over the course of the 14 games he played did this habit lead to a sack when the edge defender was otherwise pushed out of the play? Is it between 5 and 10 times? None at all? It's a good question but it drives home the point again, nothing on the football field happens independent of other circumstances. Total team sport. Very fair post.

This was an issue early in the season, but something that was cleaned up in the second half. The only game I can remember him doing this was the Cards game, and we can pretty much write that off because of the ankle. Just trying to avoid getting rolled up on. He did a much better job of stepping up in second half of season and thats even more impressive when you think about how bad Lemuiex is in pass protection.

In comment 15128793 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

who blame the offensive line and the pressure Jones faced this year as the reason his stats were so poor. I would expect most of them would come to the exact same sentiment - that the Giants line was one of the worst in the league this year when it comes to pass protection. I don't think anyone would argue - irrespective of PFF grades - that the Giants offensive line was anything short of below average over the full course of the season.

It's hard to imagine they would be 31st because half the season they were middle of the road. Although the first couple weeks was as bad as an offensive line I've seen all season so maybe that pushed us way down.

Oversimplify.

We were 6-10.
We were 31st in scoring.

The OL did not play well.

in the line's play between run and pass. I think this line was much better at run blocking than pass protection. Guys like Lemieux and Flemming are ok in run blocking but struggle in pass pro.

I would guess if you could see internal grades there would be a very distinct difference between run and pass grades for the offensive line.

The PFF grades. Much of the sports popularity is in the second quess, the benefits of hindsight, the empowerment of the feeble.
We have Joe fan who NEEDS (desperately?) to know more than the experts and full timer's. PFF employs full timers trained individuals who spend hours poring over replays. The fan needs to feel he knows more from his two hours per week of watching football, from his experience as back up starter at Smallsville High twenty years ago, and the hour he spends with other know nothings on a blogging sight.
PFF is, of course flawed, every system is, but it offers more objectivity and more technical input than the average fan who - in his opinion - knows more than any coordinator and more than any objective rating system.
I always feel sorry for the "experts" who put forth opinion as fact, who degrade the professionals for self aggrandizement and I'm reminded of David Thoreau's quote: Most men live life's of quiet desperation".

In comment 15128692 Chris684 said:

Quote:

Jones is a known drifter back there. We all know his pocket awareness needs improvement and he continues to fade in the pocket rather than step into it. For people who analyze film, I wonder how many times over the course of the 14 games he played did this habit lead to a sack when the edge defender was otherwise pushed out of the play? Is it between 5 and 10 times? None at all? It's a good question but it drives home the point again, nothing on the football field happens independent of other circumstances. Total team sport.

Good post.

I agree -I also wonder how many times DJ missed a call from a blitzer OR DJ/Gates called out a protection change the OL missed it?

It perplexed me how many sacks DJ took when the pressure was right in his face. It makes me think maybe he called a protection change so he didn't expect it coming...or he just misread the defense...

I admit - my football IQ is not to the level where I can tell the difference.

it did seem like we had more unblocked rushers than usual. But that's just a guess on my part...I have no idea if that's actually true. If it is true, that's very disappointing given the mental part of QB play is supposed to be one of Jones' strengths.

misrepresent PFF here:

Quote:

PFF employs full timers trained individuals who spend hours poring over replays.

The majority of their evaluators are not "trained individuals". I personally know two people who review for them and the process they went through was to submit an online application. Neither has coached on any level. They are fans. You could literally have BBI'ers become PFF reviewers.

And spending hours poring over replays means absolutely nothing in relation to assigning accurate evaluations. Most of us are fans who have watched years of football being played. Do we have some sort of special insight into the plays called? Do we know what a plyer is supposed to do and if they carried that out correctly? Heck, we couldn't even have a unanimous view that the Brown who fumbled at the goalline last week did it before crossing the end zone line.

The biggest mistake people can be made in discussing PFF is taking it as being based on a level of expertise, that is providing an output that is tangible. When two people can watch the same player and one give that guy a 79 grade and teh other a 54 grade, the system isn't just flawed - it isn't worth presenting as accurate of anything.

Yet time and again - it is referenced here as being indicative of something.

In comment 15128670 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

Having a good season and being the #1 WR are two different things. Godwin last season: 11th in receptions 44th in catch % 17th in targets Michael Thomas had one of the best years ever for a WR. 149 receptions on 185 targets. 80% catch%. 1725 yards and he's not the #1 WR. That's how PFF fails. They try to ascertain how a player does on each play without knowing the intended route or the offensive play. when the consensus #1 WR who had one of the best seasons ever is not the #1 in a ranking of the position - the model isn't working.

Chris Godwin was...

17th in targets (among receivers)
1st in plays over 20 yards
1st in yards after catch
4th in catch % (minimum of 50 targets)

Footballoutsiders.com had Michael Thomas as the number one wide receiver of 2019. Chris Godwin was their number two receiver. However, on a per play (which I think is what PFF does) basis, Chris Godwin was their number one wide receiver, with or without opponent adjustments. Godwin’s 2019 season was a great season. Maybe PFF has to do a better job of giving more credence to the accumulation of stats or clearly differentiate between the two like fo.com does.

anyone who's fair can question that we have a good starting left tackle and a good starting center.

is way off. Godwin's catch % was 71% in 2019. That wasn't 4th. It was 62nd overall. 44th for WR's with 40 or more targets

In comment 15128898 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

misrepresent PFF here: The biggest mistake people can be made in discussing PFF is taking it as being based on a level of expertise, that is providing an output that is tangible. When two people can watch the same player and one give that guy a 79 grade and teh other a 54 grade, the system isn't just flawed - it isn't worth presenting as accurate of anything. Yet time and again - it is referenced here as being indicative of something.

This is why I think there is hope for PFF one day, but have no idea how they make it financially.

You'd need to get scouts or coaches to jump ship from NFL. Is this financially feasible? Possibly, I don't think scouts are paid all that much and neither are coaches at the lower levels. But part of the allure for them is the travel and everything that comes with being a scout or coach. Not to mention part of the reason they can do what they do is because of the inside information that they are able to obtain from being a part of the league.

Once PFF gets staffs full of ex NFL guys then they'll start to gain some credibility. Just not sure if thats financially feasable for a company that offers very little for NFL teams.

The thing is there is certainly a business opportunity for them in this aspect, but how do you get it from point A to point D is the real question, unless investors want to pour some money into it.

In comment 15128887 Enzo said:

Quote:

it did seem like we had more unblocked rushers than usual. But that's just a guess on my part...I have no idea if that's actually true. If it is true, that's very disappointing given the mental part of QB play is supposed to be one of Jones' strengths.

THe play that instantly jumps to the front of my mind is the Golden sack in the AZ game. He was completely unblocked and was coming right at him...in today's NFL - I don't see a bunch of those kinds of sacks.

In comment 15128615 shyster said:

Quote:

In comment 15128527 montanagiant said: Quote: I find that an absurd take on their part. Is there any explanation for how they arrive at that? It is a result of the fact that PFF grades players on each play that they are on the field. Rodgers produced what he produced in only 24% of offensive snaps. And I'd presume he was a good blocker as well. The fact that PFF grades per play is something that always has to be kept in mind in translating their player grades to player value. When it comes to rankings of the performances of a team units over the course of the year, this factor is not an issue because all of the teams are being graded on all snaps for the season.

Makes sense, thanks Shyster

And are in the process of moving on from his replacement. That should tell you all you need to know about how the team feels about how they performed.