Giants Offensive Line Ranked #31 for 2020

-The Resume, December 2017

The OL did get better after the first half of the year. That said, they were still pretty bad although they ran the ball well during that winning streak against some good defenses that are tough to run on.

Two points. People seem to think that it’s a given that Ziegler gets cut. I think it’s up in the air. Neither Lemioux or Hernandez are what you call quality starters but neither is Ziegler and he’s making way more money. That said, just plugging those 2 journeymen types in not an upgrade over Zeiger. Which brings to my second point. Upgrading the OL in the draft or free agency is not a luxury. OL is a big need and I hope they bring in an interior lineman and a RT (unless they are convinced Peart is ready to start which I doubt is true).

with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year

why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me

Its somehow picked up momentum to the extent that in some posts it reads as a foregone conclusion. I guess its a combination of fans looking for possible cap space, his salary, and the OL being below average overall but he's probably the best/most consistent lineman they have.

It just doesn't make sense to me. You either keep him or trade him. Those are the only two options. OL are at a premium. Even if you get a 7th that is better than flat out cutting him. If you keep him than you either play his contract out or tweak it. I just don't see what cutting him does. Actually, cutting him opens up a hole on the OL that needs to be filled. What is the cost savings again, $6 mil? That means a replacement needs to be had for that or less. I know some will say we have Lemieux and Hernandez but that is a clear downgrade to me.

In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me

Do you have a better way to gauge offensive line play? There are no statistics for offensive linemen, we are not working with very much. Are you perhaps studying film of our offensive line? That would be a better way to judge it. And lets be clear here: there clearly is a large positive correlation between the PFF ranking of line play and team success given that the 12 worst ranked all did not make the postseason. While obviously imperfect, to say it is all nonsense is simply ignoring the evidence.

And the toughest defensive schedule.

Glaring improvement was seen....I think we can say, we are set at LT and Center going forward.

Several young players.....might be longterm replacement if growth is seen
But the OL is on its way.....

So I suspect....your assumption of getting worse even if Zeitler is cut is wrong.
Now, why would he get cut if they are not satisfied with replacement seems foolhearty.

In comment 15128287 j_rud said:

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Its somehow picked up momentum to the extent that in some posts it reads as a foregone conclusion. I guess its a combination of fans looking for possible cap space, his salary, and the OL being below average overall but he's probably the best/most consistent lineman they have.

Cap space. 12 million savings with a 2 mil cap hit.

just seems like BS. They improved a lot during the year and the games we won were because of their play.

In comment 15128290 computahfolks99 said:

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In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me Do you have a better way to gauge offensive line play? There are no statistics for offensive linemen, we are not working with very much. Are you perhaps studying film of our offensive line? That would be a better way to judge it. And lets be clear here: there clearly is a large positive correlation between the PFF ranking of line play and team success given that the 12 worst ranked all did not make the postseason. While obviously imperfect, to say it is all nonsense is simply ignoring the evidence.

I say this whether PFF portrays someone as positive or negative. all of it is crap.

I'm not sure what you mean by "is there a better way" to judge the OL. Focusing on one that consistently has gotten things wrong isn't good by any means either.

NFL people don't even find PFF directionally correct, so the idea that any data is good data doesn't work - and that's ignoring the obvious point that it isn't even data. It is opinion put into a numerical scale.

Again - Richard Rodgers with his 24 catches and 2 TD's is their second ranked TE this season. Ahead of Darren Waller

PFF is a load of crap and I would say that even if we were rated highly in any area..

.

In comment 15128297 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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In comment 15128290 computahfolks99 said: Quote: In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me Do you have a better way to gauge offensive line play? There are no statistics for offensive linemen, we are not working with very much. Are you perhaps studying film of our offensive line? That would be a better way to judge it. And lets be clear here: there clearly is a large positive correlation between the PFF ranking of line play and team success given that the 12 worst ranked all did not make the postseason. While obviously imperfect, to say it is all nonsense is simply ignoring the evidence. I say this whether PFF portrays someone as positive or negative. all of it is crap. I'm not sure what you mean by "is there a better way" to judge the OL. Focusing on one that consistently has gotten things wrong isn't good by any means either. NFL people don't even find PFF directionally correct, so the idea that any data is good data doesn't work - and that's ignoring the obvious point that it isn't even data. It is opinion put into a numerical scale. Again - Richard Rodgers with his 24 catches and 2 TD's is their second ranked TE this season. Ahead of Darren Waller

Saying it is all crap is absurd. If you do not notice a correlation between those PFF rankings and the offensive success of those respective teams then you clearly either did not even look at it or have such a strong confirmation bias against PFF that you willfully ignore the evidence presented to you. In regards to the Richard Rogers thing: he is an outlier. There are outliers in everything. The relationship between PFF grades and player performance is not a 100% direct correlation but it is certainly a positive correlation and better than randomness. And I will restate it in different terms: Do you have something other than PFF grades that can give us an indication of how well the offensive line played this year?

it. It doesn't matter if there aren't other people ranking the OL. Just because PFF does it - doesn't make it accurate.

And Richard Rodgers isn't an outlier. Chris Godwin was PFF's #1 WR last season. Will fuller is a top 10 WR the past two seasons. Clowney is their 12th ranked DE THIS SEASON. Taylor Moton is their 10th best T. Because they rank players doesn't make them correct.

I go by what people who are intimately familiar with grading their own players think of PFF and they almost all agree that it is for fan purposes only. When the topic of PFF comes up it gets laughed off. NFL teams don't make their internal grades public, but there have been responses to PFF grades that they aren't anywhere close to a margin of error.

Again - it is opinion put into a numerical format. Just because it has a scale doesn't mean it actually is a concrete figure.

In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me

Did you see the QBRs from the Ravens/Buffalo game (higher the better - of course).

Allen received a 51. LJax received a 56.

Try getting your head around that one, too...

And I'm typically a fan of QBR.

And what I saw was a horrific line the first 8 weeks, and a much better line the second half of the season. There’s a reason that we were able to run effectively the second half of the year. It’s not because Gallman is Barry Sanders. The record speaks for itself, 1-7 and then 5-3 to close it out. The defense did play terrific but we had to score points and sustain drives when we didn’t to win those games as well. We have a lot of young lineman with the exception of Zeitler. They will continue to get better. Add a few playmaker receivers and it takes pressure off of Jones, the RB’s and the line. The more threats you have the more defenses have to respect you.

PFF is trash, I don’t believe 90% of the crap I read from them.

something hilarious from PFF - see how they respond when they give players a season ending grade that exceeds any of their actual in-game grades. They say they have the discretion to raise or lower grades for different formats.

They basically make shit up. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't take the top offenses this year and just list their OL as the top rated. They've done similar things before. even they admit their numerical scale is flexible.

In comment 15128317 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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it. It doesn't matter if there aren't other people ranking the OL. Just because PFF does it - doesn't make it accurate. And Richard Rodgers isn't an outlier. Chris Godwin was PFF's #1 WR last season. Will fuller is a top 10 WR the past two seasons. Clowney is their 12th ranked DE THIS SEASON. Taylor Moton is their 10th best T. Because they rank players doesn't make them correct. I go by what people who are intimately familiar with grading their own players think of PFF and they almost all agree that it is for fan purposes only. When the topic of PFF comes up it gets laughed off. NFL teams don't make their internal grades public, but there have been responses to PFF grades that they aren't anywhere close to a margin of error. Again - it is opinion put into a numerical format. Just because it has a scale doesn't mean it actually is a concrete figure.

Whoah....you mean NFL teams dont use PFF?! Fan purposes only?? I think you're the one who is not getting it. We are FANS. We are NOT part of an NFL scouting department. No shit PFF can be very wonky with its grading. I've noticed you still haven't named me that alternative to PFF grades for juding the o-line. I'm going to take a wild guess and say...YOU DONT HAVE ONE! Given that we are NFL fans who do not have access to an NFL teams internal grades on players, what else should we use? Should we just ignore the offensive line totally. As innacurate as PFF can be, I'd wager that its a hell of a lot more accurate than the average fan's gut.

One of the positive sign of this season was the improvement of the o line. There is hope after all.

Now, as an aggregate of the past eight/nine seasons or so sure, this o line was a sad joke. Endless rushes for loss, ruining the end of Eli's tenure with him getting beat like a drum and always facing 2nd and 3rd and forever, but methinks those days. are over.

The o line is at least league average as a unit now, that is saying something, since it was near league worst for years.

The Seahawks were the best team the Giants beat this year, and in the early second half of the game the Giants committed to the run and basically ran it down their throat for scores. This I have not seen in multiple seasons.

Thomas improved and looks good, and Gates looks real fucking good. The Giants might actually have a center since Baas' injury plagued campaign in the 2011 Super Bowl run. It has been one clown after another at the position. The o line review on this site lays it out very well.

Fuck this ranking, this was not the second worst o line in the league. D got better too.

they were a middle-tier unit that showed flashes of excellent play.

I'm very encouraged by what I saw, and think there's a real chance they're a top 10 unit this year. All these young players coming back stronger and more experienced. And I actually have faith in the player development under Judge.

PFF aside, the Giants did offensive line was pretty bad.

On the pass protection front, they were really bad. And it didn't get better over the year, it was bad all the way through.

- 1st in pressure percentage
- 2nd highest number of sacks
- 6th in QB hits

On the run blocking front, they were pretty average:

- 15th in yards before contact
- 14th in yards before contact per rush

This is a big part of how you end the second worst scoring offense in the NFL.

In comment 15128294 JoeyBigBlue said:

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In comment 15128287 j_rud said: Quote: Its somehow picked up momentum to the extent that in some posts it reads as a foregone conclusion. I guess its a combination of fans looking for possible cap space, his salary, and the OL being below average overall but he's probably the best/most consistent lineman they have. Cap space. 12 million savings with a 2 mil cap hit.

I get the cap space, but theres more to it than that. Hes an above average player, the only one you can say that about besides Gates. Cutting him creates cap space but also creates a hole. Theres also continuity to consider. And Hernandez isnt a long term solution either. The goal isnt to accumulate cap space, its to win football games. Zeitler can help them do that.

PFF accurately predicts team success with it's o-line ratings because it uses team success as a factor to grade o-lines.

John Jerry was our best OL whenever he was here. They are totally useless. Our team was a tale of 2 halves. The 1-7 first half which was to be expected with a young team with new coaches and no practice time or preseason games to learn. The second half being 5-3 making Wayne Gallman look like a great RB replacing Barkley. They figured things out and learned under a great head coach. This off season will be huge.

Giants QBs were sacked 2nd most of any team in the NFL.

Giants QBs were pressured 4th most of any team in the NFL.

When accounting for the number of dropbacks, Giants QBs faced the highest pressure rate of any team in the NFL.

Run blocking was much better. Giants ranked 14th in yards before contact per attempt.

In comment 15128294 JoeyBigBlue said:

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In comment 15128287 j_rud said: Quote: Its somehow picked up momentum to the extent that in some posts it reads as a foregone conclusion. I guess its a combination of fans looking for possible cap space, his salary, and the OL being below average overall but he's probably the best/most consistent lineman they have. Cap space. 12 million savings with a 2 mil cap hit.

Then subtract the cost of his replacement. So you cut one of your best Olineman to save 3 mil? Not smart if you ask me.

is making 10 million. I'd rather pay Zietler the 12 million.

The Giants pass protection was often terrible the last quarter of the year as well.

Game 13 | 8 sacks, 14 pressures
Game 14 | 1 sack, 7 pressures
Game 15 | 6 sacks, 20 pressures
Game 16 | 2 sacks, 7 pressures

there are other non-PFF stats like pressure percentage which also demonstrate that the Giants O-line was horrendous this previous season. From watching the games this season, I got the sense that this offensive line was terrible. All of these statistics have confirmed what I saw with my eyes. I get the sense that a lot of Giants fans are tired of talking about the o-line given that it has been a problem for almost a full decade at this point. They want to just cover their eyes and pretend that it's a league-average line and instead clamor for a better QB and/or playmakers, both of which are subservient needs to an offensive line. Well I've got news for those of you who think like that: The oline still SUCKS.

In comment 15128353 christian said:

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The Giants pass protection was often terrible the last quarter of the year as well. Game 13 | 8 sacks, 14 pressures Game 14 | 1 sack, 7 pressures Game 15 | 6 sacks, 20 pressures Game 16 | 2 sacks, 7 pressures

Do you think Jones missing some games and being virtually immobile, played into that somewhat?

ROTF LMAO.

Sure, but those trends extend the whole year. There was never a meaningful stretch where the pass protection didn’t stink the entire year.

And more critical, during the most important stretch of the year against AZ, Cleveland, Baltimore — the Giants couldn’t get the run game going either.

In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me

It gives you a sense of things plus the eye test. Richard Rodgers played about 100 total snaps. Sort by snap percentage and the entire tight end ranking looks a lot different

Kelce
Waller
Kittle
Mo Allie Cox
Goedert
Trautman
Andrews
Hockenson

The Giants had an average run blocking line and a pretty bad pass protecting line all year.

I understand the optimism that the young players will develop, and with another year together continuity will be a factor. That’s a fair prediction— but in terms of performance the line was pretty bad in 2020. The unit data, the production data, and the scoring data all support that.

In comment 15128366 Tuckrule said:

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In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me It gives you a sense of things plus the eye test. Richard Rodgers played about 100 total snaps. Sort by snap percentage and the entire tight end ranking looks a lot different Kelce Waller Kittle Mo Allie Cox Goedert Trautman Andrews Hockenson

Looks different and still not all that great. No Tonyon. No Smith. No Fant. No Henry. But that's the thing - they always have glaring misses. Last season, look at some of the historic totals put up by WR's and their #1 WR was Chris Godwin.

the 31st ranking is more right than wrong. The rest of their rankings don't look out of whack either.

Giant fans should be pleased that they found a few more pieces this season and that the OL was generally looking better in the second half of the year. Pass protection still a sore point though.

And fmic stop telling others how to post...that's a no no.

fucking chucklehead is at it again. How's the hunt for dep going, Ace?

I know Thomas was playing hurt, and he appears to have the right attitude and toughness. Wirfs has been very good for Tampa though and it was reportedly a toss up between Wirfs & Thomas.

I was uber worried about Thomas at the beginning of the season, but he got better as the season progressed. From all I've read, he seems like a good kid who is very coachable so I'm optimistic about his future. Gates was a sensation. Who saw that coming?

Wirfs had a much better season than Thomas. Granted he was playing RT on a much better line but there was no comparison. And there was no comparison between Thomas and Becton or Wills. Thomas got better as the year went one but I remember seeing him get destroyed in the Arizona game. And Arizona is not a top defense. On the plus side, Thomas is only 21 and looks to be a hard worker and smart and was possibly playing hurt. But, I don’t see why we should be overly confident about his game.

The Bucs went from one of the worst to the best and they didn't change anything except RT. The difference is they didn't understand that Jameis held the ball and rated them awful in pass and rated them higher in run this year than they deserve due to the backs.

I used to like Collinsworth, but I've soured on him because he has legitimized PFF. Not to say they can't get there on day, but they are still far away from that and in the mean time people throwing around thesese scores like they mean anything drives me nuts.

or the TE or RB missing blocks? And we know that all happened! Is every sack attributed to the Oline? It’s easy to throw one round number at the Oline, however it needs to be broken down better. Regardless of final numbers, this Oline looks much improved and should only be taking steps forward from here on out.

... that we were cutting Zeitler. I keep seeing this posted. Why in the world would the Giants cut Zeitler?

and I don't think we get to see those like EVER do we?

I don't mind PFF, it but a tool, but football has so many moving parts that it is hard to be truly on target with ratings.

and it certainly not fixed. i was unimpressed with lemieux as he is HORRIBLE in pass pro. it's yet to be seen if peart is anything more than a backup

zeitler should 100% be cut. he's shown signs of really slowing down. spend that money on a younger better player

In comment 15128281 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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with PFF. They have Richard Rogers as the #2 rated TE in the NFL this year why people even reference this nonsense is beyond me

LOL. I remember they had our own Danny Clark as the 2nd best OLB in the NFL.

In comment 15128402 Zeke's Alibi said:

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The Bucs went from one of the worst to the best and they didn't change anything except RT. The difference is they didn't understand that Jameis held the ball and rated them awful in pass and rated them higher in run this year than they deserve due to the backs. I used to like Collinsworth, but I've soured on him because he has legitimized PFF. Not to say they can't get there on day, but they are still far away from that and in the mean time people throwing around thesese scores like they mean anything drives me nuts.

Thats not true. Tampa went from #7 OL in the league to #5 in the league this year according to PFF after uprgrading with Wirfs at RT. Keep your facts straight.

Without the benefit of coaches analysis — there’s no way to know what the mix of blame is.

What we know is:

1) the Giants couldn’t protect the QB well
2) the Giants couldn’t move the ball well in the air
3) the Giants were quite average pass blocking
4) the Giants moved the ball quite averagely on the ground
5) the Giants were the 2nd worst scoring team in the league

Some combination of play, talent, coaching, and play calling led to that. I’d be extremely surprised if one of those factors isn’t really bad line play.

3) quite average *run blocking*

just not consistently