sucks that they couldn't get anything of value for Frank (if they tried)....I would have taken a 2nd rounder in 2023 for him at this point
Yeah I made the comment yesterday. His lack of confidence prevents any real assertiveness on offense. So, that eliminates the notion of him being a lead guard but also hurts his shooting usefulness (despite a shooting stroke that should produce good results). Could he be a wing defender that doesn't kill you on the other side? Sure, but the other impediment to even that is his lack of durability. At this point, he's hanging on by a thread as far as being a viable NBA player.
sucks that they couldn't get anything of value for Frank (if they tried)....I would have taken a 2nd rounder in 2023 for him at this point
Yeah I made the comment yesterday. His lack of confidence prevents any real assertiveness on offense. So, that eliminates the notion of him being a lead guard but also hurts his shooting usefulness (despite a shooting stroke that should produce good results). Could he be a wing defender that doesn't kill you on the other side? Sure, but the other impediment to even that is his lack of durability. At this point, he's hanging on by a thread as far as being a viable NBA player.
The funny thing about him is that if he was a decent player there would be a ton of handwringing over his lack of durability. But because its been so bad it fades to the background.
Frustrating because he has some things that would point to him being a good player (rare length, intelligent player, seems like a solid work ethic, adequate athlete). But man, if you can't stay on the court and your confidence prevents assertiveness when you are on the court....all the other stuff proves meaningless.
The Warriors are not a very big team, Id like to see for a few minutes Quickely, burks, Rj, Randle Toppin get some burn together, that is a lot of floor spacing..
Knicks off the bench have some shooters and the floor should be really spaced for Quick to attack the middle
if Frank every plays again for the Knicks. Im a pretty optimistic fan, but the candle some of you hold for Frank being anything more then a end of the bench defender is absurd. If we drafted frank in the second round nobody would even want him on the team anymore, but since he is a top 10 pick people still want to see some unwarranted upside. Give me rivers any day of the week over Frank.
It's rare you see people jump through hoops to support a player
the way some people have for Frenchy. It's kind of hilarious. BBI only has a few of them, but if you ever went to the Knicks reddit or Posting and Toasting, god almighty there were a lot of people for whom Frank walked on water. It was surreal how much they loved the guy no matter how much he stunk.
The lesson learned is that Phil had no business running a team. So many other players would have been a better pick. I'm not going to be surprised if he ends up being a useful player down the road though. He's got some tools. But whatever glimpses he's shown are all moot if he can't stay on the court and build on them.
but the puzzling thing is he was pretty much a consensus lottery pick. I know there are plenty of lottery picks who turn into nobodies, but it's odd to think anyone thought highly of him. Even his Instagram workout videos are terrible, and those make everyone look like Michael Jordan.
I remember at the draft his comp was George Hill and being pissed about it at the time. But I think we would all be happy if he approached George Hill which isn't looking likely.
Frank is a good nba defender but he is a horrendous offensive player. Playing shorthanded on offense in the NBA kills a team. Its nice having defense but you can't be that bad on offense and survive in the league. Not to mention he's always got an injury...When is even expected back?
Its a shame too because that 2017 draft was loaded.
Has to have a handle (doesn’t) and a shot (doesn’t) and athletism ( doesn’t). I get the size, defense and intelligence but we were talking too 10. Bust.
Yeah but this will be the second leg of a back to back. Granted, their starters were able to get a bunch of rest because the game wasn't terribly competitive.
This Warriors team is very fun to watch. I swear, last night half the team just wanted to throw lob passes to Wiseman and watch him dunk.
were sincerely anticpating a really tough game tonight though. They have a lot of respect for the Knicks' D and are concerned about a lot of turnovers.
against the Lakers was a thing of beauty - the handles, the step back and the crazy range to drain the shot. He's one of the most entertaining basketball players ever.
Yeah but this will be the second leg of a back to back. Granted, their starters were able to get a bunch of rest because the game wasn't terribly competitive.
This Warriors team is very fun to watch. I swear, last night half the team just wanted to throw lob passes to Wiseman and watch him dunk.
They have played a lot better since Draymond is like their point guard and Steph moved off the ball
Damian Lillard basically talked shit about the Knicks
Hes going to the hoop more and look what happens....he gets easy buckets, goes to the line and probably thinks less when he gets an open look from 3.
Randle's been fine this year, but sometimes he goes full retard with his shot selection. That silly 20 foot two pointer when he passed on a 3, and earlier, he had a wide open 6 footer in the fucking paint and he kicks it out for a Payton 3 attempt. That was awful decision making. Sink the easy deuce and go back and play some D.
Thibs really needs to stagger these lineups so its not all 5 starters and all 5 bench
Absolutely right. Makes no sense to me. How bout we let starters get some time with bench guys and see if there is chemistry based on differing situations.
I guess Rivers gets no run despite playing fairly well recently.
Thibs really needs to stagger these lineups so its not all 5 starters and all 5 bench
Absolutely right. Makes no sense to me. How bout we let starters get some time with bench guys and see if there is chemistry based on differing situations.
I guess Rivers gets no run despite playing fairly well recently.
But I will most definitely take it. Burks is rusty but it's really good to have him back. Is there a team in the NBA that misses more 2 footers than us?
during a stoppage with like 3 minutes left, so he knew he had 28. He put up a bunch a shots after that - unfortunately that one layup rimmed out on him.
RE: Ha! I actually saw him glancing up at the scoreboard
during a stoppage with like 3 minutes left, so he knew he had 28. He put up a bunch a shots after that - unfortunately that one layup rimmed out on him.
The one layup he missed would of given him 30 and randle the triple dub
Julius slowed down, Drew Wiseman to him and then hit mitch
Imagine if you surrounded Randle with some guys who could actually hit a lay-up on a consistent basis? Mitch missed a dunk on a lob too. Could easily have had 13 or 14 assists tonight. Whomever had Julius Randle becoming Nikola Jokic on their 2021 bingo card congrats.
Thibs really needs to stagger these lineups so its not all 5 starters and all 5 bench
Absolutely right. Makes no sense to me. How bout we let starters get some time with bench guys and see if there is chemistry based on differing situations.
I guess Rivers gets no run despite playing fairly well recently.
Hate this math.
Rivers is hurt
I was told there would be no math....
Lol, thanks. Cant keep up with the day to day for the NBA.
getting the triple double but that felt more like RJ trying to get 30 at the end lol.
Btw within the past few weeks I was ridiculed on here for suggesting RJ could eventually shoot well.
So what do you want people to say? Because 2 weeks ago, RJ looked fucking awful. Jacking up 3s, 18 footers, playing shitty D,timid in the paint. RJ sucked. The last week plus his game did a 180. Why? Because he went harder to the basket. I actually said that thats what he needed to do, but I didn't need acknowledgement for that.
JK is a slasher. He is capable of playing good D too, but he lacks that instinct right now. Good thing is we have the right coach to do that.
This performance was not him lighting up from outside, it was about him getting lay ups, dunks and free throws. The 3s were gravy.
I think the majority of us wanted Haliburton with that 8th oick, could you imagine if we had done the obvious and drafted him and Quickley and haliburton were the future back court. Again I’m not throwing Toppin under the bus, but I see a shorter less athletic Mitch. The shot is ugly, it’s like a push shot and the stiff hips are brutal. I am not sure what they fell in love with in relation to him. We can’t have him and Mitch play together because you can’t throw lobs on every play and that’s all those guys are good at for the foreseeable future.
RJ is really improving. Offense not forced at all.
I liked Halliburton a lot too but I think Obi will be fine. He's struggling with the jump to the league from Dayton. I don't really see a comparison to Mitch at all. He's much more skilled offensively. He just needs time for the game to slow down a bit and for him to find his spot in the offense.
watching this team. Even when they're not winning, it seems like they're keeping it close.
I don't think that Frank and Knox have a future on this team, but Knox was looking like a functional member earlier this year. A player who can play spot minutes and hit an open jumper, so maybe I should withhold my judgement on him until the end of the year.
Julius slowed down, Drew Wiseman to him and then hit mitch
Imagine if you surrounded Randle with some guys who could actually hit a lay-up on a consistent basis? Mitch missed a dunk on a lob too. Could easily have had 13 or 14 assists tonight. Whomever had Julius Randle becoming Nikola Jokic on their 2021 bingo card congrats.
I want to take some credit or at least point out that I was one of the few on here that was singing his praises prior to the season. There were a lot of positive comments from Thibs early on regarding Randle's conditioning and overall place on the team and that gave me confidence in saying he was going to have a big year here. This is ridiculous though, but I didn't want to trade him for trash I will say that.
but to act like you were right after a couple solid shooting game is the same thing as the people who said he is the worst shooter of all time and will not get any better right after he had a couple bad shooting nights.
Glad to get Burks back, he brings so much more to the table then Bullock does. If someone is going to lose playing time i hope its him over Knox, but i doubt that happens.
And thankfully we have the team option next year. The way he is playing he mitigates the need to have a true playmaker at PG. As Quickley develops I think they can mesh together. Obviously he and Mitch have real chemistry. The tough one may be him and Toppin on the court together.
I don't want to trade him at all. Randle is a legit stud.
I didn't get to watch last nights game, but have watched most this yr and it amazes me how people still want to ship Randle out.
From what I've seen, the way he's playing now (forget last yr), he's the best player we've had in years. He's playing better all around team ball than Melo ever played here. And if Ewing had someone of Randle's caliber playing next to him, we would've won at least 1 title in the 90s. Yeah, let's get rid of the bum.
Toppin or RJ might be a nice piece to go along with the draft picks
you'd be stuck where the Wizards are with Beal and scrubs.
Huh? Who's gutting the roster? I said RJ or Toppin and a bunch of picks. If you put guys around Randle who can shoot like Burks Beal and Quickly with Mitch in the middle that is not a bunch of scrubs.
Beal would be an outstanding get for this offense.
Shooting, a) he is not going to shoot 59% from the field every game, b) he is shooting better because he is shooting less from 3. He took only 3 last night and thats the way it should be until he eliminates the 0 for 4, 0 for 5 games he has once in a while.
RE: I think RJ still has a shot to be an ok shooter...
but to act like you were right after a couple solid shooting game is the same thing as the people who said he is the worst shooter of all time and will not get any better right after he had a couple bad shooting nights.
Glad to get Burks back, he brings so much more to the table then Bullock does. If someone is going to lose playing time i hope its him over Knox, but i doubt that happens.
I said he can be a good shooter; I think evidence from a few good shooting nights does prove that he has the ability to be a good shooter. I still would not even feel comfortable predicting that he will be, I'm just saying the skills are there.
It's probably safer to say he can develop into a guy who can
but to act like you were right after a couple solid shooting game is the same thing as the people who said he is the worst shooter of all time and will not get any better right after he had a couple bad shooting nights.
Glad to get Burks back, he brings so much more to the table then Bullock does. If someone is going to lose playing time i hope its him over Knox, but i doubt that happens.
I said he can be a good shooter; I think evidence from a few good shooting nights does prove that he has the ability to be a good shooter. I still would not even feel comfortable predicting that he will be, I'm just saying the skills are there.
I too think he can be much better. Would prefer he figure out his drive game and maybe add some post before we get him shooting from outside more. He has a very long stroke and that tells me he's overly mechanical in his movement. Would love to see him shorten that up and use less arms, more legs. Go look at the way Stark shot the ball and how quick and short his release was.
RE: It's probably safer to say he can develop into a guy who can
reliably hit them when asked, but that wouldn't be why he's out on the floor.
RJ is more of a less-athletic D. Wade or a Jimmy Butler, just in terms of how he plays.
He reminds me more of Trevor Ariza. It would be nice if he can add Ariza's on the ball D and fairly reliable open 3. But I want to see him use that first step and start going to the hoop more and work on finishing/drawing fouls.
He has really shown me something the last two weeks and he is playing with way more confidence. Legit
would be an impressive duo. If they can somehow build the package with Obi and not RJ or Mitch then they would be in much better shape then the wiz. Wiz roster hasnt made sense for years as they had Wall and now Russ with Beal and then nothing. Thomas Bryant was looking like he was taking a major step and now he is done.
That said (and we have exhausted this argument i think) Obi, spare parts (DSJ, Knox, Frank, whatever) and 4 picks isnt getting it done unless its next deadline and Beal is calling the shots since he will be a FA at that point in a few months. To get him this year or offseason it would most likely take 2 out of 3 of Obi, Mitch and RJ plus the picks.
would be an impressive duo. If they can somehow build the package with Obi and not RJ or Mitch then they would be in much better shape then the wiz. Wiz roster hasnt made sense for years as they had Wall and now Russ with Beal and then nothing. Thomas Bryant was looking like he was taking a major step and now he is done.
That said (and we have exhausted this argument i think) Obi, spare parts (DSJ, Knox, Frank, whatever) and 4 picks isnt getting it done unless its next deadline and Beal is calling the shots since he will be a FA at that point in a few months. To get him this year or offseason it would most likely take 2 out of 3 of Obi, Mitch and RJ plus the picks.
After this post, I am shifting this convo to the game day thread.
I would absolutely do RJ and Obi plus a couple firsts. Not much more. He is signed through '23 only and I dont want to overpay to deal with a pain in the ass contract reneg.
That said, Randle and Beal to gether would be a l9t of fun to watch.
Also wanted to note, Randle has been overly timid with his shots. Hes gone from one extreme to the next. He passes up open looks and easier shots for dump offs to lesser shooters. But yes, this version of Randle is what you look for in todays PF.
Yeah I made the comment yesterday. His lack of confidence prevents any real assertiveness on offense. So, that eliminates the notion of him being a lead guard but also hurts his shooting usefulness (despite a shooting stroke that should produce good results). Could he be a wing defender that doesn't kill you on the other side? Sure, but the other impediment to even that is his lack of durability. At this point, he's hanging on by a thread as far as being a viable NBA player.
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sucks that they couldn't get anything of value for Frank (if they tried)....I would have taken a 2nd rounder in 2023 for him at this point
Yeah I made the comment yesterday. His lack of confidence prevents any real assertiveness on offense. So, that eliminates the notion of him being a lead guard but also hurts his shooting usefulness (despite a shooting stroke that should produce good results). Could he be a wing defender that doesn't kill you on the other side? Sure, but the other impediment to even that is his lack of durability. At this point, he's hanging on by a thread as far as being a viable NBA player.
The funny thing about him is that if he was a decent player there would be a ton of handwringing over his lack of durability. But because its been so bad it fades to the background.
I will not sit here and accept any Julius Randle slander in the year of our lord 2021.
Quote:
like every other Knick
I will not sit here and accept any Julius Randle slander in the year of our lord 2021.
admittedly, some are more flawed than others
Well, I hear he has bad table manners also but can't confirm that.
Frustrating because he has some things that would point to him being a good player (rare length, intelligent player, seems like a solid work ethic, adequate athlete). But man, if you can't stay on the court and your confidence prevents assertiveness when you are on the court....all the other stuff proves meaningless.
Different players, Burks more of scorer/shooter, Rivers more of scorer/ ball handler..
Knicks off the bench have some shooters and the floor should be really spaced for Quick to attack the middle
Yeah....Dozing and prosing.
Frank should be in the G league, Rivers has at least come up clutch for this team in a few games
Laughable. What Rivers did against Utah is more than Frank ever did in his 4 years here.
Man, Donovan Mitchell was there.
Frank is a good nba defender but he is a horrendous offensive player. Playing shorthanded on offense in the NBA kills a team. Its nice having defense but you can't be that bad on offense and survive in the league. Not to mention he's always got an injury...When is even expected back?
Its a shame too because that 2017 draft was loaded.
Man, Donovan Mitchell was there.
So was Bam Adebayo
Yeah but this will be the second leg of a back to back. Granted, their starters were able to get a bunch of rest because the game wasn't terribly competitive.
This Warriors team is very fun to watch. I swear, last night half the team just wanted to throw lob passes to Wiseman and watch him dunk.
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Going to be a tough game. Dubs are hot.
Yeah but this will be the second leg of a back to back. Granted, their starters were able to get a bunch of rest because the game wasn't terribly competitive.
This Warriors team is very fun to watch. I swear, last night half the team just wanted to throw lob passes to Wiseman and watch him dunk.
They have played a lot better since Draymond is like their point guard and Steph moved off the ball
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not precocious. Typing like Walt Frazier. Definitely nap time.
Yeah....Dozing and prosing.
Hahah that was excellent.
Dame might be right. Who knows? He's a helluva player who I wish was a Knick, Haha.
That's why he has a fan club. Because there was no one else to root for.
Now there's Quickley, an actual good player. So why waste words on Frank.
Why would he be commenting on the Knicks at all?
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basically said of the Knicks good start, he said that shit wont last and said you got another week before same old knicks..
Why would he be commenting on the Knicks at all?
One of the hosts of the show he was on is a Knicks fan
Hes going to the hoop more and look what happens....he gets easy buckets, goes to the line and probably thinks less when he gets an open look from 3.
Randle's been fine this year, but sometimes he goes full retard with his shot selection. That silly 20 foot two pointer when he passed on a 3, and earlier, he had a wide open 6 footer in the fucking paint and he kicks it out for a Payton 3 attempt. That was awful decision making. Sink the easy deuce and go back and play some D.
He cant just STOP shooting. He is great driving with the ball
Those 2 3s he took were the 3s he has to take..
The pull up 2s and 3s while he is guarded are the ones he needs to stop
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Just stop.
Those 2 3s he took were the 3s he has to take..
The pull up 2s and 3s while he is guarded are the ones he needs to stop
Exactly. I actually love him driving to the net, but hate when he takes contested shots.
Although I hate ALL contested shots. Haha, there is always someone open in today's NBA.
Did he get fatter?
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He’s been mouthing off all night.
Did he get fatter?
He has actually been good for them, offensively he has been running their offense
Seriously, they’re giving their whistles a workout tonight. Someone must have bet the over
Absolutely right. Makes no sense to me. How bout we let starters get some time with bench guys and see if there is chemistry based on differing situations.
I guess Rivers gets no run despite playing fairly well recently.
Hate this math.
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Thibs really needs to stagger these lineups so its not all 5 starters and all 5 bench
Absolutely right. Makes no sense to me. How bout we let starters get some time with bench guys and see if there is chemistry based on differing situations.
I guess Rivers gets no run despite playing fairly well recently.
Hate this math.
Rivers is hurt
Without draymond he struggles for every shot
Got to make a run early 4th, keep curry on the bench
Watching him reminds me of Hans Klopek from The 'Burbs
i was jist coming to post this haha
one assist short of the triple-double
The one layup he missed would of given him 30 and randle the triple dub
Btw within the past few weeks I was ridiculed on here for suggesting RJ could eventually shoot well.
Btw within the past few weeks I was ridiculed on here for suggesting RJ could eventually shoot well.
Julius slowed down, Drew Wiseman to him and then hit mitch
"When they foul, they get their money's worth."
"They have some tough customers in the paint."
They implied that Randle used to be regarded as soft but under Thibs has become much more physical
Julius slowed down, Drew Wiseman to him and then hit mitch
Imagine if you surrounded Randle with some guys who could actually hit a lay-up on a consistent basis? Mitch missed a dunk on a lob too. Could easily have had 13 or 14 assists tonight. Whomever had Julius Randle becoming Nikola Jokic on their 2021 bingo card congrats.
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In comment 15130385 nygiants16 said:
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Thibs really needs to stagger these lineups so its not all 5 starters and all 5 bench
Absolutely right. Makes no sense to me. How bout we let starters get some time with bench guys and see if there is chemistry based on differing situations.
I guess Rivers gets no run despite playing fairly well recently.
Hate this math.
Rivers is hurt
I was told there would be no math....
Lol, thanks. Cant keep up with the day to day for the NBA.
Btw within the past few weeks I was ridiculed on here for suggesting RJ could eventually shoot well.
So what do you want people to say? Because 2 weeks ago, RJ looked fucking awful. Jacking up 3s, 18 footers, playing shitty D,timid in the paint. RJ sucked. The last week plus his game did a 180. Why? Because he went harder to the basket. I actually said that thats what he needed to do, but I didn't need acknowledgement for that.
JK is a slasher. He is capable of playing good D too, but he lacks that instinct right now. Good thing is we have the right coach to do that.
This performance was not him lighting up from outside, it was about him getting lay ups, dunks and free throws. The 3s were gravy.
Its a shame, because his athletic ability is something to work with and he can shoot.
I liked Halliburton a lot too but I think Obi will be fine. He's struggling with the jump to the league from Dayton. I don't really see a comparison to Mitch at all. He's much more skilled offensively. He just needs time for the game to slow down a bit and for him to find his spot in the offense.
His defense has actually not been bad at all
in orange and blue?
I don't think that Frank and Knox have a future on this team, but Knox was looking like a functional member earlier this year. A player who can play spot minutes and hit an open jumper, so maybe I should withhold my judgement on him until the end of the year.
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That was sweet.
Julius slowed down, Drew Wiseman to him and then hit mitch
Imagine if you surrounded Randle with some guys who could actually hit a lay-up on a consistent basis? Mitch missed a dunk on a lob too. Could easily have had 13 or 14 assists tonight. Whomever had Julius Randle becoming Nikola Jokic on their 2021 bingo card congrats.
I want to take some credit or at least point out that I was one of the few on here that was singing his praises prior to the season. There were a lot of positive comments from Thibs early on regarding Randle's conditioning and overall place on the team and that gave me confidence in saying he was going to have a big year here. This is ridiculous though, but I didn't want to trade him for trash I will say that.
Glad to get Burks back, he brings so much more to the table then Bullock does. If someone is going to lose playing time i hope its him over Knox, but i doubt that happens.
I didn't get to watch last nights game, but have watched most this yr and it amazes me how people still want to ship Randle out.
From what I've seen, the way he's playing now (forget last yr), he's the best player we've had in years. He's playing better all around team ball than Melo ever played here. And if Ewing had someone of Randle's caliber playing next to him, we would've won at least 1 title in the 90s. Yeah, let's get rid of the bum.
Huh? Who's gutting the roster? I said RJ or Toppin and a bunch of picks. If you put guys around Randle who can shoot like Burks Beal and Quickly with Mitch in the middle that is not a bunch of scrubs.
His defense has actually not been bad at all
He flew to make that block on the baseline in the 4th. It looked like started leaping inside the paint.
Glad to get Burks back, he brings so much more to the table then Bullock does. If someone is going to lose playing time i hope its him over Knox, but i doubt that happens.
I said he can be a good shooter; I think evidence from a few good shooting nights does prove that he has the ability to be a good shooter. I still would not even feel comfortable predicting that he will be, I'm just saying the skills are there.
RJ is more of a less-athletic D. Wade or a Jimmy Butler, just in terms of how he plays.
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but to act like you were right after a couple solid shooting game is the same thing as the people who said he is the worst shooter of all time and will not get any better right after he had a couple bad shooting nights.
Glad to get Burks back, he brings so much more to the table then Bullock does. If someone is going to lose playing time i hope its him over Knox, but i doubt that happens.
I said he can be a good shooter; I think evidence from a few good shooting nights does prove that he has the ability to be a good shooter. I still would not even feel comfortable predicting that he will be, I'm just saying the skills are there.
I too think he can be much better. Would prefer he figure out his drive game and maybe add some post before we get him shooting from outside more. He has a very long stroke and that tells me he's overly mechanical in his movement. Would love to see him shorten that up and use less arms, more legs. Go look at the way Stark shot the ball and how quick and short his release was.
RJ is more of a less-athletic D. Wade or a Jimmy Butler, just in terms of how he plays.
He reminds me more of Trevor Ariza. It would be nice if he can add Ariza's on the ball D and fairly reliable open 3. But I want to see him use that first step and start going to the hoop more and work on finishing/drawing fouls.
He has really shown me something the last two weeks and he is playing with way more confidence. Legit
I'd do that in a heart beat and honestly I don't know that contenders could beat it. Our #1's are more attractive than an elite team's
That said (and we have exhausted this argument i think) Obi, spare parts (DSJ, Knox, Frank, whatever) and 4 picks isnt getting it done unless its next deadline and Beal is calling the shots since he will be a FA at that point in a few months. To get him this year or offseason it would most likely take 2 out of 3 of Obi, Mitch and RJ plus the picks.
That said (and we have exhausted this argument i think) Obi, spare parts (DSJ, Knox, Frank, whatever) and 4 picks isnt getting it done unless its next deadline and Beal is calling the shots since he will be a FA at that point in a few months. To get him this year or offseason it would most likely take 2 out of 3 of Obi, Mitch and RJ plus the picks.
After this post, I am shifting this convo to the game day thread.
I would absolutely do RJ and Obi plus a couple firsts. Not much more. He is signed through '23 only and I dont want to overpay to deal with a pain in the ass contract reneg.
That said, Randle and Beal to gether would be a l9t of fun to watch.
Also wanted to note, Randle has been overly timid with his shots. Hes gone from one extreme to the next. He passes up open looks and easier shots for dump offs to lesser shooters. But yes, this version of Randle is what you look for in todays PF.