But Sacramento has given up the most points in the league (gave up 130+ pts three times, gave up 144 to the Raptors). They want to run and the Knicks want to slow things down. The team that imposes it's will on that end will likely win.
RE: Gonna be tough for the Knicks on the back to back
But Sacramento has given up the most points in the league (gave up 130+ pts three times, gave up 144 to the Raptors). They want to run and the Knicks want to slow things down. The team that imposes it's will on that end will likely win.
The West just doesnt play defense, they want to run and get up as many shots as possible
easily negated by a team that plays smart defense.
Another part of it is a team like Sacramento likes to chuck up shot after shot as quickly as possible. Unless they are falling in at a good clip the Knicks have a huge advantage on the boards. The Kicks are 5th in the NBA in rebounding and the Kings are 29th.
Get an Up and Close Look At Who Knicks Passed Up To Take Toppin
Getting their first look at Halliburton. I wanted them to take Halliburton when their turn came up but they were smitten with Toppin from the beginning and there was no way they were gonna pass him up once Cleveland did. Toppin may be what they hoped one day but Halliburton would have instantly solved their point guard problem. Hopefully Quickley becomes their true point guard they've been missing for so long
The next two games (Fox and DL) I want to beat them sooooo bad about their comments on the Knicks. I want to shove them right up their ass! I want to win them like I wasn’t to beat Boston and the Nets!
Some of the best posters on here have concluded he is a stiff and are ready to dump him ... at age 20. ... focusing only on his bad attributes.
There are only a handful of players in the NBA his age who will even have one game all season like he had last night (and he’s had a few already in his young career). It’d be a mistake to think he’s anywhere near a finished product. Look at comps like DeRozan ... everyone struggles at his age. He’s got skills to build on and a work ethic, let’s give him time to grow.
saying RJB will be a good NBA player for a long time even if he basically stays right where he is right now. HE's a good defender, rebounder and passer for a wing and he can score 18-20 every night, rather easily.
I think fans see this slower more physical player and forget that RJB is NOT an athletic speedy guard. He's not that player. HE's more the tough, physical type that will be a winning player because he plays fucking defense.
We are way to quick to judge these young players. What's the rush.
Small sample size but this is the trend we want to see
Getting their first look at Halliburton. I wanted them to take Halliburton when their turn came up but they were smitten with Toppin from the beginning and there was no way they were gonna pass him up once Cleveland did. Toppin may be what they hoped one day but Halliburton would have instantly solved their point guard problem. Hopefully Quickley becomes their true point guard they've been missing for so long
He is not a Point Guard, he is playing well but he is not a point guard, he is playong off the ball..
He is a ball mover but he is not going to get into the paint and create for his teammmates, he is Frank with a legit jump shot..
There were 57 fouls called and 80 free throws taken. In a 48-minute game, that's well more than one foul called per minute, and of course doesn't include all the other stoppages. Within one 13-second span of the third quarter, there were 4 fouls and one technical foul called.
Also, the refs acknowledged that they ejected Draymond Green for yelling at an official when in fact he was yelling at a teammate.
The next two games (Fox and DL) I want to beat them sooooo bad about their comments on the Knicks. I want to shove them right up their ass! I want to win them like I wasn’t to beat Boston and the Nets!
I’m not sure what you’re referring to about Lillard but didn’t Fox just make a joke about their poor lottery luck? He’s not wrong. Their luck has been awful.
A 28% career 3 point shooter — shot less than 10% from 3 his second season. But has other good, winning attributes. Not gonna carry a team to a title, but a good solid building block. That’s RJ’s trajectory, I think.
RE: RE: Get an Up and Close Look At Who Knicks Passed Up To Take Toppin
Getting their first look at Halliburton. I wanted them to take Halliburton when their turn came up but they were smitten with Toppin from the beginning and there was no way they were gonna pass him up once Cleveland did. Toppin may be what they hoped one day but Halliburton would have instantly solved their point guard problem. Hopefully Quickley becomes their true point guard they've been missing for so long
He is not a Point Guard, he is playing well but he is not a point guard, he is playong off the ball..
He is a ball mover but he is not going to get into the paint and create for his teammmates, he is Frank with a legit jump shot..
and dont get me wrong he is playing well..
He's a MUCH smarter offensive player than Frank. He has a really great feel for how to play complimentary basketball at an early stage. About half the time on offense, Frank is the basketball equivalent of Ricky Bobby "I don't know what to do with my hands".
There's a legit question of Halliburton's ceiling. It may not be very high. But the early returns are he may already be at his floor, which is a guy that's gonna play in the league for years and makes plays that helps win ball games.
is a really nice improvement so far. If he can end up over 70% for the season that would almost be a 10 point improvement. Good stuff.
Nice to see him hit some 3 pointers as well. That would really make him a complete player if he can consistenly do that. Not just a guy who has to drive to the basket to score
A 28% career 3 point shooter — shot less than 10% from 3 his second season. But has other good, winning attributes. Not gonna carry a team to a title, but a good solid building block. That’s RJ’s trajectory, I think.
DeRozan a different player, quicker, but didn’t crack 5 rebounds per game until his 5th season. RJ already at 7.5rpg. Different games but my point being, continually harping on his weaknesses maybe obscures his strengths — not many 20 year olds are putting up offensive games like last night historically, especially on a defensive minded team like the Knicks (no. 1 in NBA in scoring defense).
RE: RE: RE: Get an Up and Close Look At Who Knicks Passed Up To Take Toppin
Getting their first look at Halliburton. I wanted them to take Halliburton when their turn came up but they were smitten with Toppin from the beginning and there was no way they were gonna pass him up once Cleveland did. Toppin may be what they hoped one day but Halliburton would have instantly solved their point guard problem. Hopefully Quickley becomes their true point guard they've been missing for so long
He is not a Point Guard, he is playing well but he is not a point guard, he is playong off the ball..
He is a ball mover but he is not going to get into the paint and create for his teammmates, he is Frank with a legit jump shot..
and dont get me wrong he is playing well..
He's a MUCH smarter offensive player than Frank. He has a really great feel for how to play complimentary basketball at an early stage. About half the time on offense, Frank is the basketball equivalent of Ricky Bobby "I don't know what to do with my hands".
There's a legit question of Halliburton's ceiling. It may not be very high. But the early returns are he may already be at his floor, which is a guy that's gonna play in the league for years and makes plays that helps win ball games.
And thats fine, but it doesnt change the fact he is not a point guard, he is not solving the point guard problem for the Knicks
A 28% career 3 point shooter — shot less than 10% from 3 his second season. But has other good, winning attributes. Not gonna carry a team to a title, but a good solid building block. That’s RJ’s trajectory, I think.
DeRozan a different player, quicker, but didn’t crack 5 rebounds per game until his 5th season. RJ already at 7.5rpg. Different games but my point being, continually harping on his weaknesses maybe obscures his strengths — not many 20 year olds are putting up offensive games like last night historically, especially on a defensive minded team like the Knicks (no. 1 in NBA in scoring defense).
I like the DeRozan comp. There's also some Paul Pierce to his game although I don't think he'll ever shoot the 3 ball as well as Pierce did.
Which is also why I thought he'd be a good fit next to RJ (and now Randle, whom I totally hoped they were gonna trade). And also why he's a good fit with Fox and Hield because he's really a combo guard.
RE: agree there. He's not a classic pure PG at all.
Which is also why I thought he'd be a good fit next to RJ (and now Randle, whom I totally hoped they were gonna trade). And also why he's a good fit with Fox and Hield because he's really a combo guard.
Knicks need a point guard who can shoot but alao a guy who can get into the lane and finsih and create..
RE: Small sample size but this is the trend we want to see
With the amount of minutes played I would expect the rebounds to he higher and even the assists. However, what matters is the percentages. Hopefully he can keep that up.
Payton didn't even bother me that much. RJ played with a ton of confidence, Mitch took over in the second half, Randle was Randle, Quickley hit a big three, Obi had a couple highlight reel dunks - good times all around.
I'm not gonna turn Haliburton into Donovan Mitchell just yet when it comes to the ones who got away, but yes he'd be a better fit for this roster at the moment. We'll see how it plays out.
else see this past draft of Obi-Quickley the same as Knox-Robinson?
Point being is we drafted the better player with the 2nd pick?
Still early, but I think Quickley will have a better career.
Still very early on Obi ... that injury set him back and he’s still getting his sea legs ... with a demanding defense minded coach I bet his head is spinning. He was effective from 3 at Dayton and think that’s gonna come.
else see this past draft of Obi-Quickley the same as Knox-Robinson?
Yep it could definitely turn out that way. I brought that up a few times last year - all the draft experts were saying the talent was pretty even throughout the first round, so I figured we might take a better player with the Clippers pick than the lottery pick. It's really no big deal - just pretend Mitch was the lottery pick and Knox was the second rounder. Same thing may happen again this year with the Mavs pick or the Detroit second rounder.
I killed the guy earlier in the season but Barrett has been great during this stretch. Just shows you the up and downs of a young player and the patience it takes. One thing you never doubt about Barrett is his attitude and competitiveness which you see every game.
Thibs having this team 8-8 is fantastic. This group truly seems like a cohesive unit. It's really fun having a Knicks team that is fun to watch.
Almost a 1/4 through the year and Randle is a clear all star and Knicks are tied for 6th in the East...
problem I have with Obi is that there's no clear path to playing time with Randle presumably locked into the starting PF role.
Jon, what’s your thinking on this? If Thibs wants to roll out a big defensive minded team, what’s the downside to a Mitch-Obi-Randle front line ... especially as Obi gets his legs under him and extends his range? I don’t watch as much NBA as some of you gentlemen, and don’t understand the positional dilemma. I see 30 rebounds out of that grouping and two vertical challengers in Mitch and Obi to run at 3s and protect the rim. Give up some stuff, but gain some stuff too. It’s very possible that I have an anachronistic view of things lol, and appreciate understanding.
problem I have with Obi is that there's no clear path to playing time with Randle presumably locked into the starting PF role.
Jon, what’s your thinking on this? If Thibs wants to roll out a big defensive minded team, what’s the downside to a Mitch-Obi-Randle front line ... especially as Obi gets his legs under him and extends his range? I don’t watch as much NBA as some of you gentlemen, and don’t understand the positional dilemma. I see 30 rebounds out of that grouping and two vertical challengers in Mitch and Obi to run at 3s and protect the rim. Give up some stuff, but gain some stuff too. It’s very possible that I have an anachronistic view of things lol, and appreciate understanding.
I think eventually when Thibs trusts Obi defemsively we will start to see Obi and Randle together in small ball..
Last night they probably could of done it but for right npw i dont think Thibs trusts it jist yet..
and should play the 3. He's pretty positionally limited to the 4 imo, as is Randle.
I think it’s too early to put him in a box. I’m sure his head is swimming in his adjustment to the NBA and finally learning to play D, with a hard ass coach.
But beyond that, I guess I don’t understand the need to classify guys as 3s and 4s and say we need one of each — it’s not baseball, it’s a sport of positional fluidity and playing to your own strengths. Maybe Obi can’t guard a 3, but that’s goes the other way too. And isn’t Randle playing more like a 3 anyway the way he’s handling the ball and distributing? Anyway, it’s fun to watch Thibs trying to piece this all together.
often comes down to who you can guard...and in today's NBA you have to typically have to defend out to 30 feet. Randle and Obi together for long stretches would likely struggle against ball handling/stretch bigs/wings. I'm basing this purely on Obi's scouting reports out of college. Can't tell much based on the 72 mins he's played as a pro.
often comes down to who you can guard...and in today's NBA you have to typically have to defend out to 30 feet. Randle and Obi together for long stretches would likely struggle against ball handling/stretch bigs/wings. I'm basing this purely on Obi's scouting reports out of college. Can't tell much based on the 72 mins he's played as a pro.
I think it’s possible that Obi might struggle offensively for a while as he adjusts to playing Thibs level defense. But he showed he can shoot in college. I get the tight hips thing, but also see a guy with the burst to challenge on the perimeter. And I’d also just say, the stretch guys he’ll be guarding, they have to guard him and his ability to elevate too ... give up something, get something.
often comes down to who you can guard...and in today's NBA you have to typically have to defend out to 30 feet. Randle and Obi together for long stretches would likely struggle against ball handling/stretch bigs/wings. I'm basing this purely on Obi's scouting reports out of college. Can't tell much based on the 72 mins he's played as a pro.
I think it’s possible that Obi might struggle offensively for a while as he adjusts to playing Thibs level defense. But he showed he can shoot in college. I get the tight hips thing, but also see a guy with the burst to challenge on the perimeter. And I’d also just say, the stretch guys he’ll be guarding, they have to guard him and his ability to elevate too ... give up something, get something.
Obi can't guard the 3, he struggles guarding the 4.
He is not very fluid defensively almost awkward.
He is going to need a lot of work to get to be a decent defender.
I am surprised all the so called experts said he was the most NBA ready.
I don't see it at all, he is struggles to find the flow of the game and seems out of position a lot.
Obviously I am not saying after a handful of games he is a bust or anything but he is more of a work in progress than I expected after hearing the draft experts talking.
I am all for keeping Randle for next year.
Add 2 more first rounders in next year.
Get Frank and DSJ off the books.
Let OBI develop slowly.
often comes down to who you can guard...and in today's NBA you have to typically have to defend out to 30 feet. Randle and Obi together for long stretches would likely struggle against ball handling/stretch bigs/wings. I'm basing this purely on Obi's scouting reports out of college. Can't tell much based on the 72 mins he's played as a pro.
I think it’s possible that Obi might struggle offensively for a while as he adjusts to playing Thibs level defense. But he showed he can shoot in college. I get the tight hips thing, but also see a guy with the burst to challenge on the perimeter. And I’d also just say, the stretch guys he’ll be guarding, they have to guard him and his ability to elevate too ... give up something, get something.
"burst" is good...but does he have quick enough feet to defend on the perimeter? Not saying he's Kanter, but he was dinged for his defense coming out of college for a reason.
often comes down to who you can guard...and in today's NBA you have to typically have to defend out to 30 feet. Randle and Obi together for long stretches would likely struggle against ball handling/stretch bigs/wings. I'm basing this purely on Obi's scouting reports out of college. Can't tell much based on the 72 mins he's played as a pro.
I think it’s possible that Obi might struggle offensively for a while as he adjusts to playing Thibs level defense. But he showed he can shoot in college. I get the tight hips thing, but also see a guy with the burst to challenge on the perimeter. And I’d also just say, the stretch guys he’ll be guarding, they have to guard him and his ability to elevate too ... give up something, get something.
"burst" is good...but does he have quick enough feet to defend on the perimeter? Not saying he's Kanter, but he was dinged for his defense coming out of college for a reason.
Considering that pretty much every scouting report I’ve read agrees with you as well, it’s possible/likely I’m talking out my ass. The fog of optimism I guess.
is whether his feet are permanently stuck in mud, or he can learn much better technique based upon his athleticism. To be sure, a bunch of scouts criticized him defensive potential, but another group talked about him in top-3 all-rookie terms. All I know is that, hip stifness notwithstanding, he is a HUGE leaper for his size and weight. And yes, he can shoot. Can he learn to defend competently? Too me, his athleticism suggests "yes," and Thibs will help.
As far as missing Haliburton to take him, OF COURSE there is going to be a player or two after a team's pick that ends up better than that team's pick. It's simple probability. On the other hand, if they took Halliburton, they probably would have gone much bigger with the seconmd pick, and my faith in Quickly is enormous as a future starting pg who can run a team but also score in the 18-20 point range. How many teams are talking about Quickly in terms of "the player they passed up to pick ____?" A lot mote teams than are worrying about missing Halliburton, I would wager. The chances of any team doing better than Obi plus Quickly with the picks they had is pretty tiny, imo.
Some of the best posters on here have concluded he is a stiff and are ready to dump him ... at age 20. ... focusing only on his bad attributes.
There are only a handful of players in the NBA his age who will even have one game all season like he had last night (and he’s had a few already in his young career). It’d be a mistake to think he’s anywhere near a finished product. Look at comps like DeRozan ... everyone struggles at his age. He’s got skills to build on and a work ethic, let’s give him time to grow.
I had been very down on Barrett and with damn good reason. He had been terrible!!! He shot 32% last year from three. This year, he is shooting 25% thpugh with more improvement in the last week Just consider how bad this is: after going 3/3 on opening night, he went 0 for 6,4,3 and 8 in the next four games. I dont think Ive ever been able to recite a stat line like that! Tjen okay, he goes 4/5 against Indy which is wonderful. But then, in the next 6, he goes 3/25 from behind the arc. Tjat is DREADFUL for a 2/3 that has no inside game.
All of a sudden, things changed because he went to the bucket more since the 15th and taking less 3s and with the exception of the one 0fer he had against Orlando, he has shot over 50% from 3 while taking no more than 4 per game. He has taken better shots and his FG% has been over 45 in the last 5 games where as it had been at below 30 for much of the season.
So if I was down on him, its because you cant have a SG/SF shooting @40% clip when they arent making 3s and plays terrible D. The last week he is a completely different player and what we were supposed to be getting.
cause nobody really does that anymore, lol. And You completely ignore his ability to get and finish at the basket. That is a skill that im not sure why his detractors dont give him credit for. ANd its a skill he has shown since he was a rookie. Last year people were worried that because he was so good at getting to the basket and therefor getting fouled that he would have to be a better free throw shooter. So its not like he just started getting to the basket more.
That's what you want to see. If he does, I really believe consistency will come with him being so young. You can't give up on these young guys who show the capability of being able to play organized, professional basketball.
Guys like Frank, never showed a god damn thing in his 4 years here offensively. What you see is what you get with him. A black hole who can play average to above average defense.
Knox flashed in the summer league. I think he's finding his role with Thibs as a spot up 3pt shooter.
Even if Frank showed flashes, it wouldn't matter much compared to RJ.
Frank is an iron man, aside from his talent. Frank is peanut brittle. If there were a chance of Frank staying healthy for more than a week running, we would have seen it by now. I actually think he WOULD HAVE shown flashes, if her were ever able to put in a couple of months straght. RJ, by contrast, plays his 42 minutes and then gets to practice early the next day.
This is why I also think he will end up a good 3-point shooter. A gym rat with a greaat bidy and a nice stroke will learn to shoot. Will he be great? Probably not. He doesn't need to be great, just good enough that defenders can't lay off and block his drives.
cause nobody really does that anymore, lol. And You completely ignore his ability to get and finish at the basket. That is a skill that im not sure why his detractors dont give him credit for. ANd its a skill he has shown since he was a rookie. Last year people were worried that because he was so good at getting to the basket and therefor getting fouled that he would have to be a better free throw shooter. So its not like he just started getting to the basket more.
By inside game I am referring to any offense that happens in the paint. Dribble drive and dish offs are what I am referring to. Prior to a couple games ago, his finishing ability was for shit! He has been hesitant and timid in finishing until the last few games. He has been MUCH better and could still improve. If he was aggressive getting to the hole on the drive as Payton, he would average over 20 and shoot at 46 %.
I am also aware that the post up game is largely abandoned. But because of that, defenders who play SG/SF arent very good at defending it any more. The benefit of posting up when you have RJs leaping ability and range is that a team cant just burn a smaller defender on him because he wont do it. Once we get better at shooting 3s, it also draws double teams. The idea that it is gone is simply not true. Last night the Warriors couldnt hit 3s at all and thats why we won. If everybody is not knocking 3s, having a SG who can get points and draw fpuls in the paint is HUGE. LeBron posts smaller defenders. So does Kawhi.
Its absurd to completely abandon a post game like we have the 15 footer.
fan since the mid-1950"s when the entire team showed up at my grade school to hold a practice-- led by their stars Carl Braun and Harry Gallitan. Finally, after being in the wilderness for the last 15 or so years, they are really fun to watch again. The youngsters are incrrediby talented and remind me of the late 1960's teams with young guys like Clyde, Bradley, and Willis. Guys, good things are about to happen.
Just finished watching last night's game. Fun squad we got here. 8-8...who saw this coming? I sure as hell didn't. Barrett has looked much, much better of late. Keep it up.
fan since the mid-1950"s when the entire team showed up at my grade school to hold a practice-- led by their stars Carl Braun and Harry Gallitan. Finally, after being in the wilderness for the last 15 or so years, they are really fun to watch again. The youngsters are incrrediby talented and remind me of the late 1960's teams with young guys like Clyde, Bradley, and Willis. Guys, good things are about to happen.
I agree. Different league these days but they are adopting the mentality of their head coach like the 90s Knicks did with Riley and Van Gundy. Yes, ypu can teach grit and hard play.
RJB responds tn in back to back games and would not mind seeing Obi get more minutes and Randle less. At this pace I feel Randle will burn out but what the hell do I know. He is in much better shape this year so I guess there's that
My memories of the Giants and Yankees go back to the late '50s, but I didn't start following the Knicks until the '64-'65 season. For one thing, they sucked in the early '60s. But the media coverage wasn't at all the same either.
That '64-'65 season was the rookie year of Willis, Jim Barnes (the 1st round pick) and Howard Komives. Yes, Howard Komives from Bowling Green, RIP. He was the player who interested me the most. I figured that if a short, slow white guy named Howard could play on the Knicks, maybe I had a shot too.
Things really took off from there. They acquired Bellamy, then traded him for DeBusschere; drafted Bradley, Clyde and Cazzie. Very interesting people as well as good players. The Knicks became must-see.
Oh, and Dick Barnett - loved him too. Great shooter. I tried to emulate him (after Komives washed out of the league pretty quickly).
NBA League Pass for YouTube TV. I love it...no commercials, only in arena coverage and you get to see them warmup about half an hour before the game with no interruptions...pretty cool.
He has such an ugly shot. What does he do well besides jump? I am trying to figure out what the Knicks were so smitten about. I get it he is a rookie, but I can’t figure out what he is going to be good at.
He has such an ugly shot. What does he do well besides jump? I am trying to figure out what the Knicks were so smitten about. I get it he is a rookie, but I can’t figure out what he is going to be good at.
he shot 40% from 3 in college, he can score in a variety of ways, he is not just a guy who can jump
Defending toppins play tonight vs Haliburton. Haliburton looks like the smartest player in the court on both ends of the floor. Obi played well tonight, did I fall asleep? . He had a few dunks, what else am I missing? I don’t see anything exciting about his game. Again the Knicks had they opportunity to choose a guard that can shoot, pass and defend well and for some reason they were concerned about his slender frame?
Haliburton was the best all round player on the floor tonight. What an embarrassment by the organization passing on him. We all had the pick, it was an easy pick. If the Knicks had me as a gm they would have Haliburton and donovan mitchell o the roster right now. I will admit After Sexton went knox was my preferred choice over bridges and I am wrong on that one, but in a league dominated by shooting I don’t get how you pass on Haliburton.
One other note I was all over trading down for Booker on the KP draft. Now KP ended up being the goods but I was pounding the table about finding a way to get Booker. My track record speaks for itself.
As for the frank comments. I still think frank can end up being a shooter and have reasons for it, he is an excellent free throw shooter and has really good form on his shot. You can’t serious look at toppins form and think he has the chance to be a great shooter. There also is a big difference between the college 3 and the nba 3. At the end of the day his upside to me is a 12 pt 7 rebound players. Haliburton has the chance to be an all star. He isn’t a top 10 nba type player but def can make some all star teams. Tell me what you all see in Toppin that excites you? Being serious what have you seen so far that you think you like his future more than Haliburton.
is rough. Lot's of yo-yo'ing from day to day. If we need to rebuild this right, it takes patience and young guys developing, before we can get there. People crapping on this team and its effort, is ridiculous. Not sure what was expected, but the fact these games are watchable with this roster, is a blessing. Let's not pretend we are the Lakers or anything close.
Team has tired legs. Barrett was a step slower than yesterday. If he could finish with his right hand (harder than it sounds), he would be deadly.
Randle playing really well. It'll be interesting to see the offers we get for him, it would have to be worth it for how miraculously he's playing. Legit 1/2 option right now playing two ways. Who would've thought!?
Kings backcourt is legit. Haliburton and Fox can get out on the break! I wanted Tyrese as I thought he was exactly what we needed, but getting Quickley makes it more palletable. His 3-9 was blip on the development radar.
Obi didn't play enough to get into the flow of the game. Tough to play agains the good two way player in Barnes.
Burks and Payton, hopefully we can get something for them at the deadline. Payton played great d for three quarters which took its toll on the offensive side of the game. Burks needs to get in shape. 3-14, looked sleepy tonight.
Kings are a front court player from being pretty good. Nothing to be ashamed of in this game.. west coast, back to back not matter where you are.
Yea, I disagree. I thought he was fine. Still very timid in the lane, but hes gotten better so...
Randle is infuriating. He is such a good producer, he makes his free throws, but he KILLS flow. I would rather trade him in a package for Beal than Toppin or RJ. As good as hes been, he absolutely murders the flow of moving thee ball around. How is that going to work with a guy like Beal? Would rather speed and hops in Toppin.
Yea, I disagree. I thought he was fine. Still very timid in the lane, but hes gotten better so...
Randle is infuriating. He is such a good producer, he makes his free throws, but he KILLS flow. I would rather trade him in a package for Beal than Toppin or RJ. As good as hes been, he absolutely murders the flow of moving thee ball around. How is that going to work with a guy like Beal? Would rather speed and hops in Toppin.
How is it Randles fault? he was carrying the team, He is constantly trying to find the ooen man, the offense runs through him..
It’s been great to watch but missing on draft picks when the picks are easy picks it’s just unacceptable. It sets the franchise back for years. No tram will ever get every pick right but the Knicks have had opportunities and in many cases these were obvious picks not only from a player talent perspective but also from a what the team really needs perspective. Rose I’m assuming had the final say on the pick and over ruled someone. People fall in love with dunking and highlight real plays, I think a great gm can look past that stuff. I don’t even want to disregard topping too much, I’m sure he will be in the league for a long time I just don’t see anything that he does really well. Besides the open dunks he does not finish well in traffic, his foot work is terrible, which I know will improve over time, very stiff in his movements, never a good sign defensively for a big man and not very strong, which I know will improve. All these things 3-4 years from now when he should be entering his prime what do you think he looks like. If he is a starter he is a 12-7 guy. I don’t see any thing that makes me think he can be a star and he was supposed to be the most nba ready guy in the draft. I just don’t see it.
Yea, I disagree. I thought he was fine. Still very timid in the lane, but hes gotten better so...
Randle is infuriating. He is such a good producer, he makes his free throws, but he KILLS flow. I would rather trade him in a package for Beal than Toppin or RJ. As good as hes been, he absolutely murders the flow of moving thee ball around. How is that going to work with a guy like Beal? Would rather speed and hops in Toppin.
How is it Randles fault? he was carrying the team, He is constantly trying to find the ooen man, the offense runs through him..
I replied to this, but for some reason the post didnt post.
Im not typing the whole thing again, but simple answer is I prefer Topins athleticism and defensive potential to JR and his great off production but poor decision making. If we can somehow trade Randle and 1 or 2 picks for Max deal Beal, I would prefer that over Toppin. Toppin is so explosive and I think can be taught D. JR does not want to play help side or above the rim D. We dont need a point 4. We need a guy who will run the floor and go up against rim gangsters.
Its Zach Randolph vs Amare Stoudemire in their primes. But with a great shooting guard added to the mix. Who do you think fits better?
Defending toppins play tonight vs Haliburton. Haliburton looks like the smartest player in the court on both ends of the floor. Obi played well tonight, did I fall asleep? . He had a few dunks, what else am I missing? I don’t see anything exciting about his game. Again the Knicks had they opportunity to choose a guard that can shoot, pass and defend well and for some reason they were concerned about his slender frame?
Haliburton was the best all round player on the floor tonight. What an embarrassment by the organization passing on him. We all had the pick, it was an easy pick. If the Knicks had me as a gm they would have Haliburton and donovan mitchell o the roster right now. I will admit After Sexton went knox was my preferred choice over bridges and I am wrong on that one, but in a league dominated by shooting I don’t get how you pass on Haliburton.
One other note I was all over trading down for Booker on the KP draft. Now KP ended up being the goods but I was pounding the table about finding a way to get Booker. My track record speaks for itself.
As for the frank comments. I still think frank can end up being a shooter and have reasons for it, he is an excellent free throw shooter and has really good form on his shot. You can’t serious look at toppins form and think he has the chance to be a great shooter. There also is a big difference between the college 3 and the nba 3. At the end of the day his upside to me is a 12 pt 7 rebound players. Haliburton has the chance to be an all star. He isn’t a top 10 nba type player but def can make some all star teams. Tell me what you all see in Toppin that excites you? Being serious what have you seen so far that you think you like his future more than Haliburton.
The thing about your pounding your chest incessantly about Mitchell that nobody has called you out on for some reason is that you also loved DSJ in that draft. They were 1a and 1b on your wishlist for the Knicks. They were often mentioned together in your posts during that draft period. You were absolutely in love with DSJ and his athleticism. You never seem to mention that. I wonder why?
is rough. Lot's of yo-yo'ing from day to day. If we need to rebuild this right, it takes patience and young guys developing, before we can get there. People crapping on this team and its effort, is ridiculous. Not sure what was expected, but the fact these games are watchable with this roster, is a blessing. Let's not pretend we are the Lakers or anything close.
Team has tired legs. Barrett was a step slower than yesterday. If he could finish with his right hand (harder than it sounds), he would be deadly.
Randle playing really well. It'll be interesting to see the offers we get for him, it would have to be worth it for how miraculously he's playing. Legit 1/2 option right now playing two ways. Who would've thought!?
Kings backcourt is legit. Haliburton and Fox can get out on the break! I wanted Tyrese as I thought he was exactly what we needed, but getting Quickley makes it more palletable. His 3-9 was blip on the development radar.
Obi didn't play enough to get into the flow of the game. Tough to play agains the good two way player in Barnes.
Burks and Payton, hopefully we can get something for them at the deadline. Payton played great d for three quarters which took its toll on the offensive side of the game. Burks needs to get in shape. 3-14, looked sleepy tonight.
Kings are a front court player from being pretty good. Nothing to be ashamed of in this game.. west coast, back to back not matter where you are.
Good post. Overall this team is playing well and exceeding expectations, but we all know the roster is still stocked with several guys who won’t be here long term. This year is about rebuilding a culture and playing competitive under a good new coach, instead of tanking for a high pick for the 10th year in a row or whatever.
2nd night of a back to back after a west coast flight, they faded down the stretch. It happens
Obi has been back 3 games after 3 weeks off, and you guys are ready to take him out back and shoot him. Good grief
Do we see any big changes then? Elf on the shelf, or better yet off the team?
Needs to happen. Quickley with the first unit makes everyone better. Not sure what Elfrid Payton has done to earn so much rope. It’s like Willie playing Miguel Cairo everyday in 2005
Do we see any big changes then? Elf on the shelf, or better yet off the team?
Needs to happen. Quickley with the first unit makes everyone better. Not sure what Elfrid Payton has done to earn so much rope. It’s like Willie playing Miguel Cairo everyday in 2005
Or Tom starting Markus Kuhn in 2015 for most of the season
Everyone healthy i am starting Rivers, Burks, Rj, Randle, Mitch..
Rivers i not a true point guard but hr can playmake, he can shoot the 3 and he can get into the paint, you cant jist leave him on offense..
I would do a 3 guard rotation quickley rivers and burks..Quick can play off the ball or on the ball, all 3 can shoot..
Bullock would be my back up 3 behind Rj..
Toppin back up randle and Noel back.up Mitch..
Knox and Payton out of the rotation for now..
I think that 9 gives this team the best chance to win, you cant go and double Randle freely with no care with those guys in the back court and you always have at least 2 shooters on the court
Seems like a good guy but was a terrible head coach.
David Fizdale on the Knicks, via ‘The Jump:’
“They are exactly Tom Thibodeau. They are competing their tails off. You know I love those kids. So for them to know what it feels like to win in this league is great for them. And (Thibs) is doing a helluva job.”
Seems like a good guy but was a terrible head coach.
David Fizdale on the Knicks, via ‘The Jump:’
“They are exactly Tom Thibodeau. They are competing their tails off. You know I love those kids. So for them to know what it feels like to win in this league is great for them. And (Thibs) is doing a helluva job.”
I domt think Fiz is a bad guy, he is just an assistant in every sense of the word, as HC you got to be a hard ass and your going to piss players off..Assistants are the players friends and Fiz couldnt change his mentality, i think what happened in Memphis eith Gasol scarred him..
He was so afraid to make a player mad that he was constantly changing the lineups, giving 12 guys a night minutes, it just didnt work..
Seems like a good guy but was a terrible head coach.
David Fizdale on the Knicks, via ‘The Jump:’
“They are exactly Tom Thibodeau. They are competing their tails off. You know I love those kids. So for them to know what it feels like to win in this league is great for them. And (Thibs) is doing a helluva job.”
I domt think Fiz is a bad guy, he is just an assistant in every sense of the word, as HC you got to be a hard ass and your going to piss players off..Assistants are the players friends and Fiz couldnt change his mentality, i think what happened in Memphis eith Gasol scarred him..
He was so afraid to make a player mad that he was constantly changing the lineups, giving 12 guys a night minutes, it just didnt work..
There has to be some balance. You also can’t give 6 guys 30+ minutes on back to back nights and have them fresh down the stretch.
Seems like a good guy but was a terrible head coach.
David Fizdale on the Knicks, via ‘The Jump:’
“They are exactly Tom Thibodeau. They are competing their tails off. You know I love those kids. So for them to know what it feels like to win in this league is great for them. And (Thibs) is doing a helluva job.”
I domt think Fiz is a bad guy, he is just an assistant in every sense of the word, as HC you got to be a hard ass and your going to piss players off..Assistants are the players friends and Fiz couldnt change his mentality, i think what happened in Memphis eith Gasol scarred him..
He was so afraid to make a player mad that he was constantly changing the lineups, giving 12 guys a night minutes, it just didnt work..
There has to be some balance. You also can’t give 6 guys 30+ minutes on back to back nights and have them fresh down the stretch.
No but most starters play 30+ minutes in the NBA, most teams go 9 or 10 deep eith their 10th guy only playing 10 to 15 minutes..
Randle and Rj playing 37 minutes a night is not out of the ordinary and yes there will be nights they are tired
I don’t recall this alleged love for Dennis Smith but I also don’t remeber so I will take your word on that. At the end of the day, I can say with great confidence that mitchell was by far and away my number 1 I may have liked smith jr over Frankie, which at this point I like frankie better so if that’s the case then I was slightly wrong on smith jr over frankie.
I will say for this draft I didn’t love anyone and I def. argued against trading up for ball, said I would just stay at 8 and take Haliburton. Ball looks good Haliburton looks good also so I don’t think I am wrong on that one. The frustrating thing was again Haliburton was such an easy pick there from a talent perspective and from a need perspective. I’m not going to act like some genius I think majority of people on this board thought Haliburton should have been the pick there and also the ‘experts’ did as well.
I really wanted Sexton, but he went right before knicks so nothing knicks can do about that. And I favored knox over bridges, which bridges looks like the better player now, I still see upside in knox, he needs a few more years and probably won’t be on the Knicks by the time he is reliable. I would have been fine with Porter jr risk but I also understood knicks were not in a position to take that risk given the current roster situation. I missed on SGA.
I did really want Booker in the KP draft and I did not want KP, I was happy to not get okafor. At the end of the day KP is a stud, but always hurt. I can’t say the Knicks are idiots for not trading down for Booker, but again if you watched him in college it was easy to see that he would be a star one day the way the league plays now a days and no reason for him dropping as far as he did.
I remember when we picked Ntilikina the big criticism of the pick was
a lack of upside, and a George Hill comp. Now people are going to piss and moan over not taking Haliburton, who is a low upside, high floor player that is most likely a George Hill type.
The big problem with not taking Halliburton is the position he plays. I could understand taking Toppin over another big man but the Knicks haven’t had a good PG in like forever. And, Toppin played 4 years in college whereas Halliburton came out early which I think suggests there’s lots of more room for improvement. Can somebody tell me who ran the draft for the Knicks? Was Thibs in the process?
is Obi Toppin doesn't win any one-on-one matchups. No matter the advantage. It seems like he loses all momentum, and can't back down anyone. He's a power forward. He's about to be 23 soon. He shouldn't be this raw. IMO.
The big problem with not taking Halliburton is the position he plays. I could understand taking Toppin over another big man but the Knicks haven’t had a good PG in like forever. And, Toppin played 4 years in college whereas Halliburton came out early which I think suggests there’s lots of more room for improvement. Can somebody tell me who ran the draft for the Knicks? Was Thibs in the process?
Haliburton is not a point guard tho, The guy from Utah most likely ran the drsft, his name escapes me right now..
is Obi Toppin doesn't win any one-on-one matchups. No matter the advantage. It seems like he loses all momentum, and can't back down anyone. He's a power forward. He's about to be 23 soon. He shouldn't be this raw. IMO.
Again, still early.
Whether we like it or not, he IS raw. He played one season of varsity basketball in high school. He’s still learning the game
is Obi Toppin doesn't win any one-on-one matchups. No matter the advantage. It seems like he loses all momentum, and can't back down anyone. He's a power forward. He's about to be 23 soon. He shouldn't be this raw. IMO.
Again, still early.
Whether we like it or not, he IS raw. He played one season of varsity basketball in high school. He’s still learning the game
I understand that he is. But from the impression that I got leading up to selectig him was that he was the most ready to make that jump Day 1. He's young. I'm patient. I'm sure an actual competent PG who could best utilize him would do wonders for the kid.
I haven’t watched any SAC this year but I like the idea of Hield, a youngish wing with big range on a decreasing salary, especially given free agency dried up a lot. As always the question is what would they want. We can give a lot of salary relief, would they want take like Frank, DSJ, and some seconds? Knox instead of one? Don’t know that’d I’d do a first - maybe the protected DAL first but that’s about it.
If we had picked him we probably wouldn’t have Quickley. Halliburton probably would be playing 15 min a game behind Payton and Bullocks anyway. Sac is where young prospects go to languish away though, with Fox being the exception, so we will see. He picked off two passes RJ threw directly at his head, let’s not hail him as the next Mitchell just yet.
Obi needs to settle down, and just react instead of going 100mph with the ball. Our guard play doesn’t help either.
How about you comment on my thoughts on Haliburton vs Toppin, where do you stand on this? You just made to useless comments about my post, but did not provide an opinion. I’m guessing it’s because you agree but you don’t want to admit it. If not let’s hear why you are more excited for Toppin over Haliburton?
Separate I will pass on Hield, no defense, he looks like put on 40 lbs in the offseason which means he is lazy and he also has an attitude problem. He doesn’t do anything that is very exciting besides hitting 3-4 3’s a game. He is not worth the money.
As for Beal I am all in and would overpay, given that he is locked in for thisbyear and next and is entering his prime. Toppin, Knox, DSJ, Bullock and 4 first rounders for Beal. Given that we have the Dallas picks we lose net 2 first round picks for Beal plus a few guys that have potential to be good but we won’t know until down the road.
PG - Quickley/Frank/Payton
SG - Beal/Burks/Frank
SF - Barrett/Burks
PF - Randle/ buyout player
C - Mitch/noel/Gibson
Cap space for a max in the offseason but unfortunately no max guy left to sign. 2022 could have some really good free agents but most are likely to resign where they are, Mitch will be do $15 mil a year deal soon
How could they concentrate with the 16,000 ads on the Kings court? I know teams are trying to make a buck, but that was ridiculous. It looked like a NASCAR hood out there.
that he was significantly more athletic than everyone in college but won't be near that level in the NBA. Some guys do carry their college athletic advantage over to the NBA--such as De'Aaron Fox last night--but Obi is not one of them.
That said, he does seem to have above-average athleticism, the ability to create a bit, and to shoot a bit. I think his ceiling is an above-average starter.
He's also played only like 7 games and already shown flashes of being able to do some nice things, so maybe we should all (myself included) fall back a little bit.
As for Beal I am all in and would overpay, given that he is locked in for thisbyear and next and is entering his prime. Toppin, Knox, DSJ, Bullock and 4 first rounders for Beal. Given that we have the Dallas picks we lose net 2 first round picks for Beal plus a few guys that have potential to be good but we won’t know until down the road.
So we're giving up more assets for Beal than we did Melo? Aside from not nearly having the impact of Melo, Beal isn't worth 4 first round picks plus Toppin and Knox.
Also, I can't speak for Jon.. but you've said before how you do your gloating about wanting and being right on Mitchell on purpose just to see if we take the bait? After so many times, you come across as a douche. Like you were called out earlier, you also were high on Dennis Smith Jr. The "I know what I'm talking about" and "my track record speaks for itself" is the part where you lose any shred of being taken seriously. You were right about one prospect in an overall crapshoot draft. To act like you're some authority figure on scouting talent makes you look like a joke. As Jon and I like to say.. take a lap.
As for Beal I am all in and would overpay, given that he is locked in for thisbyear and next and is entering his prime. Toppin, Knox, DSJ, Bullock and 4 first rounders for Beal. Given that we have the Dallas picks we lose net 2 first round picks for Beal plus a few guys that have potential to be good but we won’t know until down the road.
So we're giving up more assets for Beal than we did Melo? Aside from not nearly having the impact of Melo, Beal isn't worth 4 first round picks plus Toppin and Knox.
Also, I can't speak for Jon.. but you've said before how you do your gloating about wanting and being right on Mitchell on purpose just to see if we take the bait? After so many times, you come across as a douche. Like you were called out earlier, you also were high on Dennis Smith Jr. The "I know what I'm talking about" and "my track record speaks for itself" is the part where you lose any shred of being taken seriously. You were right about one prospect in an overall crapshoot draft. To act like you're some authority figure on scouting talent makes you look like a joke. As Jon and I like to say.. take a lap.
That trade for Beal would be an absolute steal for the Knicks, Beal is playing like a top 10 player in the league this year..
Beal, Rj, Randle, Mitch with room for more is not to shabby and eith the amount of picks the Knicks have they would still have 1st rounders to add players
How about you comment on my thoughts on Haliburton vs Toppin, where do you stand on this? You just made to useless comments about my post, but did not provide an opinion. I’m guessing it’s because you agree but you don’t want to admit it. If not let’s hear why you are more excited for Toppin over Haliburton?
Separate I will pass on Hield, no defense, he looks like put on 40 lbs in the offseason which means he is lazy and he also has an attitude problem. He doesn’t do anything that is very exciting besides hitting 3-4 3’s a game. He is not worth the money.
As for Beal I am all in and would overpay, given that he is locked in for thisbyear and next and is entering his prime. Toppin, Knox, DSJ, Bullock and 4 first rounders for Beal. Given that we have the Dallas picks we lose net 2 first round picks for Beal plus a few guys that have potential to be good but we won’t know until down the road.
PG - Quickley/Frank/Payton
SG - Beal/Burks/Frank
SF - Barrett/Burks
PF - Randle/ buyout player
C - Mitch/noel/Gibson
Cap space for a max in the offseason but unfortunately no max guy left to sign. 2022 could have some really good free agents but most are likely to resign where they are, Mitch will be do $15 mil a year deal soon
Washington laughs at that trade offer. I don’t think fans and people on here how much it’s going to take to trade for Beal. He also fits on every team in the league and there are going to be a ton of teams in on him. I think RJ and 5 1sts is a starting point and I highly doubt that gets it done.
because I think the cost would be (rightly) astronomical. I'm not getting excited by consistent first and second round exits with Beal and Randle. Just keep building from the ground up.
because I think the cost would be (rightly) astronomical. I'm not getting excited by consistent first and second round exits with Beal and Randle. Just keep building from the ground up.
But here is the thing, you still have max cap space to add to the team, you can add another star
Offers Ben Simmons for Beal then no on can compete but if no Simmons then there is no chance Philly can make a better offer than the Knicks or Pelicans who can make best offer. Fake Lawrence Taylor, I gave the other guys that I wanted Haliburton, Sexton, Booker. Wasnt just mitchell. The cost for players now a days in a trade is much higher than back then. This Is the cost for Beal. I think your underrating your Beal vs melo comparison. Beal is good in both sides of the ball and in my eyes a top 10 player on the league
Rj, Obi, 21 1st, 22 1st, 23 1st and 24 1st is what it would look like
I like Beal, I really do. I just remember what happened when we emptied the cupboard for a star player. I think that's too high. I don't think Beal puts us over the edge of anything past 1st round.
Rj, Obi, 21 1st, 22 1st, 23 1st and 24 1st is what it would look like
I like Beal, I really do. I just remember what happened when we emptied the cupboard for a star player. I think that's too high. I don't think Beal puts us over the edge of anything past 1st round.
But he wouldnt be added to nothing, and you still have room to add more..
RE: Obi has to get used to the speed and nuances of the NBA game
Right now he is reliant on someone setting him up, which is fine..
When he gets the ball he is not used to smaller guys being so strong and bigger guys being quick.
In college he got a little guy he took him into the paint and score, if he got a big on him he blew right by him..
In the NBA that is not always the case..
I think he will be fine, for the Knicks the biggest issue is point guard play
Good calls on all fronts. I didnt watch Toppin in college, but his mobility and wingspan are impressive. He is very similar to Amare in the way he moves.
RE: RE: Obi has to get used to the speed and nuances of the NBA game
Right now he is reliant on someone setting him up, which is fine..
When he gets the ball he is not used to smaller guys being so strong and bigger guys being quick.
In college he got a little guy he took him into the paint and score, if he got a big on him he blew right by him..
In the NBA that is not always the case..
I think he will be fine, for the Knicks the biggest issue is point guard play
Good calls on all fronts. I didnt watch Toppin in college, but his mobility and wingspan are impressive. He is very similar to Amare in the way he moves.
You're right, he does seem to move like Amare. I think he has less overall athleticism, but probably a chance to be a better shooter/natural scorer. Amare didn't start shooting from the outside right away, and Obi's already doing it.
Rj, Obi, 21 1st, 22 1st, 23 1st and 24 1st is what it would look like
I like Beal, I really do. I just remember what happened when we emptied the cupboard for a star player. I think that's too high. I don't think Beal puts us over the edge of anything past 1st round.
Look what it took for Harden. It'll be less than that but we have the picks to do it. We don't give up RJ either.
My guess is it'll be 3 1st rd picks, Burks and maybe Obi.
RE: RE: RE: Obi has to get used to the speed and nuances of the NBA game
Right now he is reliant on someone setting him up, which is fine..
When he gets the ball he is not used to smaller guys being so strong and bigger guys being quick.
In college he got a little guy he took him into the paint and score, if he got a big on him he blew right by him..
In the NBA that is not always the case..
I think he will be fine, for the Knicks the biggest issue is point guard play
Good calls on all fronts. I didnt watch Toppin in college, but his mobility and wingspan are impressive. He is very similar to Amare in the way he moves.
You're right, he does seem to move like Amare. I think he has less overall athleticism, but probably a chance to be a better shooter/natural scorer. Amare didn't start shooting from the outside right away, and Obi's already doing it.
See, thats where I disagree. Amare's body type and Obi's are almost identical. If obi is diligent about being able to onock down open jumpers, he is Amare Stoudamire pt deux...hopefully minus the injuries. But the guy can absolutely soar effortlessly.
There is some talk about Toppin being a trade piece instead of Randle....right now, after what Ive seen, you keep Toppin and trade Randle.
Rj, Obi, 21 1st, 22 1st, 23 1st and 24 1st is what it would look like
I like Beal, I really do. I just remember what happened when we emptied the cupboard for a star player. I think that's too high. I don't think Beal puts us over the edge of anything past 1st round.
Look what it took for Harden. It'll be less than that but we have the picks to do it. We don't give up RJ either.
My guess is it'll be 3 1st rd picks, Burks and maybe Obi.
Thats a hard no for me. Swap out Toppin for Randle or swap out one of the 1sts and we can talk. Toppin with Beal is better because Toppin is above the rim and wont dominate the ball.
And likely mid round 1st round picks should not hold you up dor wanting to get Beal. As mentioned you add Beal to this team with randle Mitch rj. I don’t see why they can’t be a top 4 team in the East. I think they are better than Boston and indiana. Nets Sixers and bucks are still better, but I can make a strong case that their staring 5 can compete with any of those teams not going to beat them in a long series but there competing and Beal would be the oldest guy in the starting line up at 27. Would still have a few first round picks over the next few years and plenty of seconds to try to get bench pieces and still have cap room.
Quickley or someone else free agent
Beal
RJ
Randle
Mitch
I know it’s a unlikely to get Beal but that starting 5 is competing and is a piece or 2 away from being a serious contender. I don’t think some people realize how good Beal is.
but I think it's very unlikely the Wiz have any interest in Obi. They just took Rui and gave big money to Bertans, who can basically both play only the 4.
Then there's Avidja, who plays the 3, which is RJ's natural position. Just not great fits there trade wise.
including Van Gundy, who think of Quickley as having star-level potential at pg. The main reason that he isn't playing more this year is that Payton, with all of his foibles, weak shoooting and turnovers, is part of a really strong defense. Opposing star pgs aren't having their way with him, and we are really are close to the top on most team defensive metrics.
I still want to see Quickley and Toppin get more PT and Payton and Randall get less (Julius needs more rest), but Thib's concept of putting together a winning mentality for a while before putting the kids out there more isn't a disaster.
Meanwhile, having a potential do-everything pg like quickley as a rookie is pretty exciting stuff, even if it is too early for him to blossom fully at pg after playing mostly the 2 at Kentucky.
including Van Gundy, who think of Quickley as having star-level potential at pg. The main reason that he isn't playing more this year is that Payton, with all of his foibles, weak shoooting and turnovers, is part of a really strong defense. Opposing star pgs aren't having their way with him, and we are really are close to the top on most team defensive metrics.
I still want to see Quickley and Toppin get more PT and Payton and Randall get less (Julius needs more rest), but Thib's concept of putting together a winning mentality for a while before putting the kids out there more isn't a disaster.
Meanwhile, having a potential do-everything pg like quickley as a rookie is pretty exciting stuff, even if it is too early for him to blossom fully at pg after playing mostly the 2 at Kentucky.
You bring up very good points, but a few just are off to me.
- I think Thibs is doing the wholesale line changes in an effort to get the younger guys on the floor to play naturally....not feeling pressured to get the ball to Randle or _______ I think that will start changing soon
- Payton definitely does a l9t of good out there. His ability to get to the rim and finish is very good. I dont notice the D you are referring to because I havent really seen him matched up on on ball guards too regularly. Seems to me thats Barrett primarily but I could be mistaken.
- I love Quickley. He just needs to slow down a bit. Just as Barrett and Knox take too long to get into a game, Quick is out like terrier. He is a revelation at that position for sure.
- Toppin has major league potential. Yes, he is older for a rookie, but his body is totally ready, he flies to the hoop, is very quick for his size and has made some plays on D already. I referenced Amare before...he is like a mix of Amare and Shawn Marion. People talk about him as the trade piece over JR....at this point I would rather trade JR while his value is high and try to keep Toppin while bringing in a big swinging dick like Beal. But who knows.
The West just doesnt play defense, they want to run and get up as many shots as possible
Another part of it is a team like Sacramento likes to chuck up shot after shot as quickly as possible. Unless they are falling in at a good clip the Knicks have a huge advantage on the boards. The Kicks are 5th in the NBA in rebounding and the Kings are 29th.
There are only a handful of players in the NBA his age who will even have one game all season like he had last night (and he’s had a few already in his young career). It’d be a mistake to think he’s anywhere near a finished product. Look at comps like DeRozan ... everyone struggles at his age. He’s got skills to build on and a work ethic, let’s give him time to grow.
I think fans see this slower more physical player and forget that RJB is NOT an athletic speedy guard. He's not that player. HE's more the tough, physical type that will be a winning player because he plays fucking defense.
We are way to quick to judge these young players. What's the rush.
He is not a Point Guard, he is playing well but he is not a point guard, he is playong off the ball..
He is a ball mover but he is not going to get into the paint and create for his teammmates, he is Frank with a legit jump shot..
and dont get me wrong he is playing well..
Also, the refs acknowledged that they ejected Draymond Green for yelling at an official when in fact he was yelling at a teammate.
I'm glad there were no paying customers at the game because they would have deserved their money back.
Steve Kerr: Officials admit Draymond Green's ejection for yelling at James Wiseman was mistake - ( New Window )
I’m not sure what you’re referring to about Lillard but didn’t Fox just make a joke about their poor lottery luck? He’s not wrong. Their luck has been awful.
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Getting their first look at Halliburton. I wanted them to take Halliburton when their turn came up but they were smitten with Toppin from the beginning and there was no way they were gonna pass him up once Cleveland did. Toppin may be what they hoped one day but Halliburton would have instantly solved their point guard problem. Hopefully Quickley becomes their true point guard they've been missing for so long
He is not a Point Guard, he is playing well but he is not a point guard, he is playong off the ball..
He is a ball mover but he is not going to get into the paint and create for his teammmates, he is Frank with a legit jump shot..
and dont get me wrong he is playing well..
He's a MUCH smarter offensive player than Frank. He has a really great feel for how to play complimentary basketball at an early stage. About half the time on offense, Frank is the basketball equivalent of Ricky Bobby "I don't know what to do with my hands".
There's a legit question of Halliburton's ceiling. It may not be very high. But the early returns are he may already be at his floor, which is a guy that's gonna play in the league for years and makes plays that helps win ball games.
I’m not sure what you’re referring to about Lillard
He said something about how the Knicks start was a mirage and the real Knicks, i.e. the loser Knicks, would re-emerge soon.
Nice to see him hit some 3 pointers as well. That would really make him a complete player if he can consistenly do that. Not just a guy who has to drive to the basket to score
DeRozan a different player, quicker, but didn’t crack 5 rebounds per game until his 5th season. RJ already at 7.5rpg. Different games but my point being, continually harping on his weaknesses maybe obscures his strengths — not many 20 year olds are putting up offensive games like last night historically, especially on a defensive minded team like the Knicks (no. 1 in NBA in scoring defense).
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In comment 15130543 LTIsTheGreatest said:
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Getting their first look at Halliburton. I wanted them to take Halliburton when their turn came up but they were smitten with Toppin from the beginning and there was no way they were gonna pass him up once Cleveland did. Toppin may be what they hoped one day but Halliburton would have instantly solved their point guard problem. Hopefully Quickley becomes their true point guard they've been missing for so long
He is not a Point Guard, he is playing well but he is not a point guard, he is playong off the ball..
He is a ball mover but he is not going to get into the paint and create for his teammmates, he is Frank with a legit jump shot..
and dont get me wrong he is playing well..
He's a MUCH smarter offensive player than Frank. He has a really great feel for how to play complimentary basketball at an early stage. About half the time on offense, Frank is the basketball equivalent of Ricky Bobby "I don't know what to do with my hands".
There's a legit question of Halliburton's ceiling. It may not be very high. But the early returns are he may already be at his floor, which is a guy that's gonna play in the league for years and makes plays that helps win ball games.
And thats fine, but it doesnt change the fact he is not a point guard, he is not solving the point guard problem for the Knicks
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A 28% career 3 point shooter — shot less than 10% from 3 his second season. But has other good, winning attributes. Not gonna carry a team to a title, but a good solid building block. That’s RJ’s trajectory, I think.
DeRozan a different player, quicker, but didn’t crack 5 rebounds per game until his 5th season. RJ already at 7.5rpg. Different games but my point being, continually harping on his weaknesses maybe obscures his strengths — not many 20 year olds are putting up offensive games like last night historically, especially on a defensive minded team like the Knicks (no. 1 in NBA in scoring defense).
I like the DeRozan comp. There's also some Paul Pierce to his game although I don't think he'll ever shoot the 3 ball as well as Pierce did.
Knicks need a point guard who can shoot but alao a guy who can get into the lane and finsih and create..
With the amount of minutes played I would expect the rebounds to he higher and even the assists. However, what matters is the percentages. Hopefully he can keep that up.
I'm not gonna turn Haliburton into Donovan Mitchell just yet when it comes to the ones who got away, but yes he'd be a better fit for this roster at the moment. We'll see how it plays out.
@ESPNNBA
The Knicks have the No. 1 defense in the NBA Eyes
New York is holding teams to 102.8 PPG on just 43% shooting from the field. Both of which lead the league
The Knicks? #1? Defense?
Point being is we drafted the better player with the 2nd pick?
Still early, but I think Quickley will have a better career.
@ESPNNBA
The Knicks have the No. 1 defense in the NBA Eyes
New York is holding teams to 102.8 PPG on just 43% shooting from the field. Both of which lead the league
The Knicks? #1? Defense?
Also dead last in scoring ... but no doubt that Thibs is making his mark.
Point being is we drafted the better player with the 2nd pick?
Still early, but I think Quickley will have a better career.
Still very early on Obi ... that injury set him back and he’s still getting his sea legs ... with a demanding defense minded coach I bet his head is spinning. He was effective from 3 at Dayton and think that’s gonna come.
Yep it could definitely turn out that way. I brought that up a few times last year - all the draft experts were saying the talent was pretty even throughout the first round, so I figured we might take a better player with the Clippers pick than the lottery pick. It's really no big deal - just pretend Mitch was the lottery pick and Knox was the second rounder. Same thing may happen again this year with the Mavs pick or the Detroit second rounder.
Thibs having this team 8-8 is fantastic. This group truly seems like a cohesive unit. It's really fun having a Knicks team that is fun to watch.
Almost a 1/4 through the year and Randle is a clear all star and Knicks are tied for 6th in the East...
Jon, what’s your thinking on this? If Thibs wants to roll out a big defensive minded team, what’s the downside to a Mitch-Obi-Randle front line ... especially as Obi gets his legs under him and extends his range? I don’t watch as much NBA as some of you gentlemen, and don’t understand the positional dilemma. I see 30 rebounds out of that grouping and two vertical challengers in Mitch and Obi to run at 3s and protect the rim. Give up some stuff, but gain some stuff too. It’s very possible that I have an anachronistic view of things lol, and appreciate understanding.
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problem I have with Obi is that there's no clear path to playing time with Randle presumably locked into the starting PF role.
Jon, what’s your thinking on this? If Thibs wants to roll out a big defensive minded team, what’s the downside to a Mitch-Obi-Randle front line ... especially as Obi gets his legs under him and extends his range? I don’t watch as much NBA as some of you gentlemen, and don’t understand the positional dilemma. I see 30 rebounds out of that grouping and two vertical challengers in Mitch and Obi to run at 3s and protect the rim. Give up some stuff, but gain some stuff too. It’s very possible that I have an anachronistic view of things lol, and appreciate understanding.
I think eventually when Thibs trusts Obi defemsively we will start to see Obi and Randle together in small ball..
Last night they probably could of done it but for right npw i dont think Thibs trusts it jist yet..
I think it’s too early to put him in a box. I’m sure his head is swimming in his adjustment to the NBA and finally learning to play D, with a hard ass coach.
But beyond that, I guess I don’t understand the need to classify guys as 3s and 4s and say we need one of each — it’s not baseball, it’s a sport of positional fluidity and playing to your own strengths. Maybe Obi can’t guard a 3, but that’s goes the other way too. And isn’t Randle playing more like a 3 anyway the way he’s handling the ball and distributing? Anyway, it’s fun to watch Thibs trying to piece this all together.
@ESPNNBA
New York is holding teams to 102.8 PPG on just 43% shooting from the field. Both of which lead the league
And the Kings are last in the league in both those categories. Although the Knicks are also the lowest-scoring team in the league, so there's that.
I think it’s possible that Obi might struggle offensively for a while as he adjusts to playing Thibs level defense. But he showed he can shoot in college. I get the tight hips thing, but also see a guy with the burst to challenge on the perimeter. And I’d also just say, the stretch guys he’ll be guarding, they have to guard him and his ability to elevate too ... give up something, get something.
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often comes down to who you can guard...and in today's NBA you have to typically have to defend out to 30 feet. Randle and Obi together for long stretches would likely struggle against ball handling/stretch bigs/wings. I'm basing this purely on Obi's scouting reports out of college. Can't tell much based on the 72 mins he's played as a pro.
I think it’s possible that Obi might struggle offensively for a while as he adjusts to playing Thibs level defense. But he showed he can shoot in college. I get the tight hips thing, but also see a guy with the burst to challenge on the perimeter. And I’d also just say, the stretch guys he’ll be guarding, they have to guard him and his ability to elevate too ... give up something, get something.
Obi can't guard the 3, he struggles guarding the 4.
He is not very fluid defensively almost awkward.
He is going to need a lot of work to get to be a decent defender.
I am surprised all the so called experts said he was the most NBA ready.
I don't see it at all, he is struggles to find the flow of the game and seems out of position a lot.
Obviously I am not saying after a handful of games he is a bust or anything but he is more of a work in progress than I expected after hearing the draft experts talking.
I am all for keeping Randle for next year.
Add 2 more first rounders in next year.
Get Frank and DSJ off the books.
Let OBI develop slowly.
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often comes down to who you can guard...and in today's NBA you have to typically have to defend out to 30 feet. Randle and Obi together for long stretches would likely struggle against ball handling/stretch bigs/wings. I'm basing this purely on Obi's scouting reports out of college. Can't tell much based on the 72 mins he's played as a pro.
I think it’s possible that Obi might struggle offensively for a while as he adjusts to playing Thibs level defense. But he showed he can shoot in college. I get the tight hips thing, but also see a guy with the burst to challenge on the perimeter. And I’d also just say, the stretch guys he’ll be guarding, they have to guard him and his ability to elevate too ... give up something, get something.
"burst" is good...but does he have quick enough feet to defend on the perimeter? Not saying he's Kanter, but he was dinged for his defense coming out of college for a reason.
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In comment 15130798 Enzo said:
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often comes down to who you can guard...and in today's NBA you have to typically have to defend out to 30 feet. Randle and Obi together for long stretches would likely struggle against ball handling/stretch bigs/wings. I'm basing this purely on Obi's scouting reports out of college. Can't tell much based on the 72 mins he's played as a pro.
I think it’s possible that Obi might struggle offensively for a while as he adjusts to playing Thibs level defense. But he showed he can shoot in college. I get the tight hips thing, but also see a guy with the burst to challenge on the perimeter. And I’d also just say, the stretch guys he’ll be guarding, they have to guard him and his ability to elevate too ... give up something, get something.
"burst" is good...but does he have quick enough feet to defend on the perimeter? Not saying he's Kanter, but he was dinged for his defense coming out of college for a reason.
Considering that pretty much every scouting report I’ve read agrees with you as well, it’s possible/likely I’m talking out my ass. The fog of optimism I guess.
As far as missing Haliburton to take him, OF COURSE there is going to be a player or two after a team's pick that ends up better than that team's pick. It's simple probability. On the other hand, if they took Halliburton, they probably would have gone much bigger with the seconmd pick, and my faith in Quickly is enormous as a future starting pg who can run a team but also score in the 18-20 point range. How many teams are talking about Quickly in terms of "the player they passed up to pick ____?" A lot mote teams than are worrying about missing Halliburton, I would wager. The chances of any team doing better than Obi plus Quickly with the picks they had is pretty tiny, imo.
There are only a handful of players in the NBA his age who will even have one game all season like he had last night (and he’s had a few already in his young career). It’d be a mistake to think he’s anywhere near a finished product. Look at comps like DeRozan ... everyone struggles at his age. He’s got skills to build on and a work ethic, let’s give him time to grow.
I had been very down on Barrett and with damn good reason. He had been terrible!!! He shot 32% last year from three. This year, he is shooting 25% thpugh with more improvement in the last week Just consider how bad this is: after going 3/3 on opening night, he went 0 for 6,4,3 and 8 in the next four games. I dont think Ive ever been able to recite a stat line like that! Tjen okay, he goes 4/5 against Indy which is wonderful. But then, in the next 6, he goes 3/25 from behind the arc. Tjat is DREADFUL for a 2/3 that has no inside game.
All of a sudden, things changed because he went to the bucket more since the 15th and taking less 3s and with the exception of the one 0fer he had against Orlando, he has shot over 50% from 3 while taking no more than 4 per game. He has taken better shots and his FG% has been over 45 in the last 5 games where as it had been at below 30 for much of the season.
So if I was down on him, its because you cant have a SG/SF shooting @40% clip when they arent making 3s and plays terrible D. The last week he is a completely different player and what we were supposed to be getting.
Guys like Frank, never showed a god damn thing in his 4 years here offensively. What you see is what you get with him. A black hole who can play average to above average defense.
Knox flashed in the summer league. I think he's finding his role with Thibs as a spot up 3pt shooter.
This is why I also think he will end up a good 3-point shooter. A gym rat with a greaat bidy and a nice stroke will learn to shoot. Will he be great? Probably not. He doesn't need to be great, just good enough that defenders can't lay off and block his drives.
By inside game I am referring to any offense that happens in the paint. Dribble drive and dish offs are what I am referring to. Prior to a couple games ago, his finishing ability was for shit! He has been hesitant and timid in finishing until the last few games. He has been MUCH better and could still improve. If he was aggressive getting to the hole on the drive as Payton, he would average over 20 and shoot at 46 %.
I am also aware that the post up game is largely abandoned. But because of that, defenders who play SG/SF arent very good at defending it any more. The benefit of posting up when you have RJs leaping ability and range is that a team cant just burn a smaller defender on him because he wont do it. Once we get better at shooting 3s, it also draws double teams. The idea that it is gone is simply not true. Last night the Warriors couldnt hit 3s at all and thats why we won. If everybody is not knocking 3s, having a SG who can get points and draw fpuls in the paint is HUGE. LeBron posts smaller defenders. So does Kawhi.
Its absurd to completely abandon a post game like we have the 15 footer.
I agree. Different league these days but they are adopting the mentality of their head coach like the 90s Knicks did with Riley and Van Gundy. Yes, ypu can teach grit and hard play.
That '64-'65 season was the rookie year of Willis, Jim Barnes (the 1st round pick) and Howard Komives. Yes, Howard Komives from Bowling Green, RIP. He was the player who interested me the most. I figured that if a short, slow white guy named Howard could play on the Knicks, maybe I had a shot too.
Things really took off from there. They acquired Bellamy, then traded him for DeBusschere; drafted Bradley, Clyde and Cazzie. Very interesting people as well as good players. The Knicks became must-see.
Oh, and Dick Barnett - loved him too. Great shooter. I tried to emulate him (after Komives washed out of the league pretty quickly).
Go Knicks!
They chuck up a lot of shots
he shot 40% from 3 in college, he can score in a variety of ways, he is not just a guy who can jump
Dark jerseys sell
Fun first half.
Bagley sucks.
Lol
Randle was literally tackled on the way to the basket no call...then they call some ticky tak bullshit 20 feet from the ball the next trip down
Hes all over the court, great off the ball
Haliburton was the best all round player on the floor tonight. What an embarrassment by the organization passing on him. We all had the pick, it was an easy pick. If the Knicks had me as a gm they would have Haliburton and donovan mitchell o the roster right now. I will admit After Sexton went knox was my preferred choice over bridges and I am wrong on that one, but in a league dominated by shooting I don’t get how you pass on Haliburton.
One other note I was all over trading down for Booker on the KP draft. Now KP ended up being the goods but I was pounding the table about finding a way to get Booker. My track record speaks for itself.
As for the frank comments. I still think frank can end up being a shooter and have reasons for it, he is an excellent free throw shooter and has really good form on his shot. You can’t serious look at toppins form and think he has the chance to be a great shooter. There also is a big difference between the college 3 and the nba 3. At the end of the day his upside to me is a 12 pt 7 rebound players. Haliburton has the chance to be an all star. He isn’t a top 10 nba type player but def can make some all star teams. Tell me what you all see in Toppin that excites you? Being serious what have you seen so far that you think you like his future more than Haliburton.
He was superb. All over the place. Biggest defensive play of the game coming out of nowhere to block Burks 3 when we were down only 2.
Because the ball is in Rj and Randles hands, Payton is useless with the starting unit, offensively kbicks play 4 on 5
Team has tired legs. Barrett was a step slower than yesterday. If he could finish with his right hand (harder than it sounds), he would be deadly.
Randle playing really well. It'll be interesting to see the offers we get for him, it would have to be worth it for how miraculously he's playing. Legit 1/2 option right now playing two ways. Who would've thought!?
Kings backcourt is legit. Haliburton and Fox can get out on the break! I wanted Tyrese as I thought he was exactly what we needed, but getting Quickley makes it more palletable. His 3-9 was blip on the development radar.
Obi didn't play enough to get into the flow of the game. Tough to play agains the good two way player in Barnes.
Burks and Payton, hopefully we can get something for them at the deadline. Payton played great d for three quarters which took its toll on the offensive side of the game. Burks needs to get in shape. 3-14, looked sleepy tonight.
Kings are a front court player from being pretty good. Nothing to be ashamed of in this game.. west coast, back to back not matter where you are.
Yea, I disagree. I thought he was fine. Still very timid in the lane, but hes gotten better so...
Randle is infuriating. He is such a good producer, he makes his free throws, but he KILLS flow. I would rather trade him in a package for Beal than Toppin or RJ. As good as hes been, he absolutely murders the flow of moving thee ball around. How is that going to work with a guy like Beal? Would rather speed and hops in Toppin.
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..
Yea, I disagree. I thought he was fine. Still very timid in the lane, but hes gotten better so...
Randle is infuriating. He is such a good producer, he makes his free throws, but he KILLS flow. I would rather trade him in a package for Beal than Toppin or RJ. As good as hes been, he absolutely murders the flow of moving thee ball around. How is that going to work with a guy like Beal? Would rather speed and hops in Toppin.
How is it Randles fault? he was carrying the team, He is constantly trying to find the ooen man, the offense runs through him..
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In comment 15131467 nygiants16 said:
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..
Yea, I disagree. I thought he was fine. Still very timid in the lane, but hes gotten better so...
Randle is infuriating. He is such a good producer, he makes his free throws, but he KILLS flow. I would rather trade him in a package for Beal than Toppin or RJ. As good as hes been, he absolutely murders the flow of moving thee ball around. How is that going to work with a guy like Beal? Would rather speed and hops in Toppin.
How is it Randles fault? he was carrying the team, He is constantly trying to find the ooen man, the offense runs through him..
I replied to this, but for some reason the post didnt post.
Im not typing the whole thing again, but simple answer is I prefer Topins athleticism and defensive potential to JR and his great off production but poor decision making. If we can somehow trade Randle and 1 or 2 picks for Max deal Beal, I would prefer that over Toppin. Toppin is so explosive and I think can be taught D. JR does not want to play help side or above the rim D. We dont need a point 4. We need a guy who will run the floor and go up against rim gangsters.
Its Zach Randolph vs Amare Stoudemire in their primes. But with a great shooting guard added to the mix. Who do you think fits better?
Haliburton was the best all round player on the floor tonight. What an embarrassment by the organization passing on him. We all had the pick, it was an easy pick. If the Knicks had me as a gm they would have Haliburton and donovan mitchell o the roster right now. I will admit After Sexton went knox was my preferred choice over bridges and I am wrong on that one, but in a league dominated by shooting I don’t get how you pass on Haliburton.
One other note I was all over trading down for Booker on the KP draft. Now KP ended up being the goods but I was pounding the table about finding a way to get Booker. My track record speaks for itself.
As for the frank comments. I still think frank can end up being a shooter and have reasons for it, he is an excellent free throw shooter and has really good form on his shot. You can’t serious look at toppins form and think he has the chance to be a great shooter. There also is a big difference between the college 3 and the nba 3. At the end of the day his upside to me is a 12 pt 7 rebound players. Haliburton has the chance to be an all star. He isn’t a top 10 nba type player but def can make some all star teams. Tell me what you all see in Toppin that excites you? Being serious what have you seen so far that you think you like his future more than Haliburton.
The thing about your pounding your chest incessantly about Mitchell that nobody has called you out on for some reason is that you also loved DSJ in that draft. They were 1a and 1b on your wishlist for the Knicks. They were often mentioned together in your posts during that draft period. You were absolutely in love with DSJ and his athleticism. You never seem to mention that. I wonder why?
Team has tired legs. Barrett was a step slower than yesterday. If he could finish with his right hand (harder than it sounds), he would be deadly.
Randle playing really well. It'll be interesting to see the offers we get for him, it would have to be worth it for how miraculously he's playing. Legit 1/2 option right now playing two ways. Who would've thought!?
Kings backcourt is legit. Haliburton and Fox can get out on the break! I wanted Tyrese as I thought he was exactly what we needed, but getting Quickley makes it more palletable. His 3-9 was blip on the development radar.
Obi didn't play enough to get into the flow of the game. Tough to play agains the good two way player in Barnes.
Burks and Payton, hopefully we can get something for them at the deadline. Payton played great d for three quarters which took its toll on the offensive side of the game. Burks needs to get in shape. 3-14, looked sleepy tonight.
Kings are a front court player from being pretty good. Nothing to be ashamed of in this game.. west coast, back to back not matter where you are.
Good post. Overall this team is playing well and exceeding expectations, but we all know the roster is still stocked with several guys who won’t be here long term. This year is about rebuilding a culture and playing competitive under a good new coach, instead of tanking for a high pick for the 10th year in a row or whatever.
2nd night of a back to back after a west coast flight, they faded down the stretch. It happens
Obi has been back 3 games after 3 weeks off, and you guys are ready to take him out back and shoot him. Good grief
Needs to happen. Quickley with the first unit makes everyone better. Not sure what Elfrid Payton has done to earn so much rope. It’s like Willie playing Miguel Cairo everyday in 2005
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Do we see any big changes then? Elf on the shelf, or better yet off the team?
Needs to happen. Quickley with the first unit makes everyone better. Not sure what Elfrid Payton has done to earn so much rope. It’s like Willie playing Miguel Cairo everyday in 2005
Or Tom starting Markus Kuhn in 2015 for most of the season
Rivers i not a true point guard but hr can playmake, he can shoot the 3 and he can get into the paint, you cant jist leave him on offense..
I would do a 3 guard rotation quickley rivers and burks..Quick can play off the ball or on the ball, all 3 can shoot..
Bullock would be my back up 3 behind Rj..
Toppin back up randle and Noel back.up Mitch..
Knox and Payton out of the rotation for now..
I think that 9 gives this team the best chance to win, you cant go and double Randle freely with no care with those guys in the back court and you always have at least 2 shooters on the court
David Fizdale on the Knicks, via ‘The Jump:’
“They are exactly Tom Thibodeau. They are competing their tails off. You know I love those kids. So for them to know what it feels like to win in this league is great for them. And (Thibs) is doing a helluva job.”
David Fizdale on the Knicks, via ‘The Jump:’
“They are exactly Tom Thibodeau. They are competing their tails off. You know I love those kids. So for them to know what it feels like to win in this league is great for them. And (Thibs) is doing a helluva job.”
I domt think Fiz is a bad guy, he is just an assistant in every sense of the word, as HC you got to be a hard ass and your going to piss players off..Assistants are the players friends and Fiz couldnt change his mentality, i think what happened in Memphis eith Gasol scarred him..
He was so afraid to make a player mad that he was constantly changing the lineups, giving 12 guys a night minutes, it just didnt work..
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Seems like a good guy but was a terrible head coach.
David Fizdale on the Knicks, via ‘The Jump:’
“They are exactly Tom Thibodeau. They are competing their tails off. You know I love those kids. So for them to know what it feels like to win in this league is great for them. And (Thibs) is doing a helluva job.”
I domt think Fiz is a bad guy, he is just an assistant in every sense of the word, as HC you got to be a hard ass and your going to piss players off..Assistants are the players friends and Fiz couldnt change his mentality, i think what happened in Memphis eith Gasol scarred him..
He was so afraid to make a player mad that he was constantly changing the lineups, giving 12 guys a night minutes, it just didnt work..
There has to be some balance. You also can’t give 6 guys 30+ minutes on back to back nights and have them fresh down the stretch.
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In comment 15131552 TyreeHelmet said:
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Seems like a good guy but was a terrible head coach.
David Fizdale on the Knicks, via ‘The Jump:’
“They are exactly Tom Thibodeau. They are competing their tails off. You know I love those kids. So for them to know what it feels like to win in this league is great for them. And (Thibs) is doing a helluva job.”
I domt think Fiz is a bad guy, he is just an assistant in every sense of the word, as HC you got to be a hard ass and your going to piss players off..Assistants are the players friends and Fiz couldnt change his mentality, i think what happened in Memphis eith Gasol scarred him..
He was so afraid to make a player mad that he was constantly changing the lineups, giving 12 guys a night minutes, it just didnt work..
There has to be some balance. You also can’t give 6 guys 30+ minutes on back to back nights and have them fresh down the stretch.
No but most starters play 30+ minutes in the NBA, most teams go 9 or 10 deep eith their 10th guy only playing 10 to 15 minutes..
Randle and Rj playing 37 minutes a night is not out of the ordinary and yes there will be nights they are tired
I will say for this draft I didn’t love anyone and I def. argued against trading up for ball, said I would just stay at 8 and take Haliburton. Ball looks good Haliburton looks good also so I don’t think I am wrong on that one. The frustrating thing was again Haliburton was such an easy pick there from a talent perspective and from a need perspective. I’m not going to act like some genius I think majority of people on this board thought Haliburton should have been the pick there and also the ‘experts’ did as well.
I really wanted Sexton, but he went right before knicks so nothing knicks can do about that. And I favored knox over bridges, which bridges looks like the better player now, I still see upside in knox, he needs a few more years and probably won’t be on the Knicks by the time he is reliable. I would have been fine with Porter jr risk but I also understood knicks were not in a position to take that risk given the current roster situation. I missed on SGA.
I did really want Booker in the KP draft and I did not want KP, I was happy to not get okafor. At the end of the day KP is a stud, but always hurt. I can’t say the Knicks are idiots for not trading down for Booker, but again if you watched him in college it was easy to see that he would be a star one day the way the league plays now a days and no reason for him dropping as far as he did.
These continue to be the most hilarious posts on BBI.
Again, still early.
Haliburton is not a point guard tho, The guy from Utah most likely ran the drsft, his name escapes me right now..
Again, still early.
Whether we like it or not, he IS raw. He played one season of varsity basketball in high school. He’s still learning the game
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is Obi Toppin doesn't win any one-on-one matchups. No matter the advantage. It seems like he loses all momentum, and can't back down anyone. He's a power forward. He's about to be 23 soon. He shouldn't be this raw. IMO.
Again, still early.
Whether we like it or not, he IS raw. He played one season of varsity basketball in high school. He’s still learning the game
I understand that he is. But from the impression that I got leading up to selectig him was that he was the most ready to make that jump Day 1. He's young. I'm patient. I'm sure an actual competent PG who could best utilize him would do wonders for the kid.
Hahaha whatever you say. Keep up the jokes.
When he gets the ball he is not used to smaller guys being so strong and bigger guys being quick.
In college he got a little guy he took him into the paint and score, if he got a big on him he blew right by him..
In the NBA that is not always the case..
I think he will be fine, for the Knicks the biggest issue is point guard play
I'd trade for Hield, gladly.
This was his seventh NBA game. Cmon.
In fact, I'd probably want future picks in exchange for taking on his contract. Maybe like DSJ, Knox for Hield, 2023 1st.
Saves the Kings 20 mil in cap moving forward, gets the Knicks a legit floor spacer that fits well with the rest of the roster.
The defense is a huge concern though
Obi needs to settle down, and just react instead of going 100mph with the ball. Our guard play doesn’t help either.
Separate I will pass on Hield, no defense, he looks like put on 40 lbs in the offseason which means he is lazy and he also has an attitude problem. He doesn’t do anything that is very exciting besides hitting 3-4 3’s a game. He is not worth the money.
As for Beal I am all in and would overpay, given that he is locked in for thisbyear and next and is entering his prime. Toppin, Knox, DSJ, Bullock and 4 first rounders for Beal. Given that we have the Dallas picks we lose net 2 first round picks for Beal plus a few guys that have potential to be good but we won’t know until down the road.
PG - Quickley/Frank/Payton
SG - Beal/Burks/Frank
SF - Barrett/Burks
PF - Randle/ buyout player
C - Mitch/noel/Gibson
Cap space for a max in the offseason but unfortunately no max guy left to sign. 2022 could have some really good free agents but most are likely to resign where they are, Mitch will be do $15 mil a year deal soon
I just think it's hilarious how openly and actively think you are some brilliant basketball mind.
"My track record speaks for itself." This is legitimately one of the funniest things I've read on here.
I just think it's hilarious how openly and actively think you are some brilliant basketball mind.
"My track record speaks for itself." This is legitimately one of the funniest things I've read on here.
you were also one of the posters actively tlaking about hoe you wanted haliburton
That said, he does seem to have above-average athleticism, the ability to create a bit, and to shoot a bit. I think his ceiling is an above-average starter.
He's also played only like 7 games and already shown flashes of being able to do some nice things, so maybe we should all (myself included) fall back a little bit.
As for Beal I am all in and would overpay, given that he is locked in for thisbyear and next and is entering his prime. Toppin, Knox, DSJ, Bullock and 4 first rounders for Beal. Given that we have the Dallas picks we lose net 2 first round picks for Beal plus a few guys that have potential to be good but we won’t know until down the road.
So we're giving up more assets for Beal than we did Melo? Aside from not nearly having the impact of Melo, Beal isn't worth 4 first round picks plus Toppin and Knox.
Also, I can't speak for Jon.. but you've said before how you do your gloating about wanting and being right on Mitchell on purpose just to see if we take the bait? After so many times, you come across as a douche. Like you were called out earlier, you also were high on Dennis Smith Jr. The "I know what I'm talking about" and "my track record speaks for itself" is the part where you lose any shred of being taken seriously. You were right about one prospect in an overall crapshoot draft. To act like you're some authority figure on scouting talent makes you look like a joke. As Jon and I like to say.. take a lap.
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As for Beal I am all in and would overpay, given that he is locked in for thisbyear and next and is entering his prime. Toppin, Knox, DSJ, Bullock and 4 first rounders for Beal. Given that we have the Dallas picks we lose net 2 first round picks for Beal plus a few guys that have potential to be good but we won’t know until down the road.
So we're giving up more assets for Beal than we did Melo? Aside from not nearly having the impact of Melo, Beal isn't worth 4 first round picks plus Toppin and Knox.
Also, I can't speak for Jon.. but you've said before how you do your gloating about wanting and being right on Mitchell on purpose just to see if we take the bait? After so many times, you come across as a douche. Like you were called out earlier, you also were high on Dennis Smith Jr. The "I know what I'm talking about" and "my track record speaks for itself" is the part where you lose any shred of being taken seriously. You were right about one prospect in an overall crapshoot draft. To act like you're some authority figure on scouting talent makes you look like a joke. As Jon and I like to say.. take a lap.
That trade for Beal would be an absolute steal for the Knicks, Beal is playing like a top 10 player in the league this year..
Beal, Rj, Randle, Mitch with room for more is not to shabby and eith the amount of picks the Knicks have they would still have 1st rounders to add players
Separate I will pass on Hield, no defense, he looks like put on 40 lbs in the offseason which means he is lazy and he also has an attitude problem. He doesn’t do anything that is very exciting besides hitting 3-4 3’s a game. He is not worth the money.
As for Beal I am all in and would overpay, given that he is locked in for thisbyear and next and is entering his prime. Toppin, Knox, DSJ, Bullock and 4 first rounders for Beal. Given that we have the Dallas picks we lose net 2 first round picks for Beal plus a few guys that have potential to be good but we won’t know until down the road.
PG - Quickley/Frank/Payton
SG - Beal/Burks/Frank
SF - Barrett/Burks
PF - Randle/ buyout player
C - Mitch/noel/Gibson
Cap space for a max in the offseason but unfortunately no max guy left to sign. 2022 could have some really good free agents but most are likely to resign where they are, Mitch will be do $15 mil a year deal soon
Washington laughs at that trade offer. I don’t think fans and people on here how much it’s going to take to trade for Beal. He also fits on every team in the league and there are going to be a ton of teams in on him. I think RJ and 5 1sts is a starting point and I highly doubt that gets it done.
But here is the thing, you still have max cap space to add to the team, you can add another star
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said I was more excited for Toppin than Haliburton.
I just think it's hilarious how openly and actively think you are some brilliant basketball mind.
"My track record speaks for itself." This is legitimately one of the funniest things I've read on here.
you were also one of the posters actively tlaking about hoe you wanted haliburton
Haha thanks, I did, but I don't bring it up on every thread like this dude because I'm not a crazy person.
I like Beal, I really do. I just remember what happened when we emptied the cupboard for a star player. I think that's too high. I don't think Beal puts us over the edge of anything past 1st round.
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Rj, Obi, 21 1st, 22 1st, 23 1st and 24 1st is what it would look like
I like Beal, I really do. I just remember what happened when we emptied the cupboard for a star player. I think that's too high. I don't think Beal puts us over the edge of anything past 1st round.
But he wouldnt be added to nothing, and you still have room to add more..
When he gets the ball he is not used to smaller guys being so strong and bigger guys being quick.
In college he got a little guy he took him into the paint and score, if he got a big on him he blew right by him..
In the NBA that is not always the case..
I think he will be fine, for the Knicks the biggest issue is point guard play
Good calls on all fronts. I didnt watch Toppin in college, but his mobility and wingspan are impressive. He is very similar to Amare in the way he moves.
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Right now he is reliant on someone setting him up, which is fine..
When he gets the ball he is not used to smaller guys being so strong and bigger guys being quick.
In college he got a little guy he took him into the paint and score, if he got a big on him he blew right by him..
In the NBA that is not always the case..
I think he will be fine, for the Knicks the biggest issue is point guard play
Good calls on all fronts. I didnt watch Toppin in college, but his mobility and wingspan are impressive. He is very similar to Amare in the way he moves.
You're right, he does seem to move like Amare. I think he has less overall athleticism, but probably a chance to be a better shooter/natural scorer. Amare didn't start shooting from the outside right away, and Obi's already doing it.
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Rj, Obi, 21 1st, 22 1st, 23 1st and 24 1st is what it would look like
I like Beal, I really do. I just remember what happened when we emptied the cupboard for a star player. I think that's too high. I don't think Beal puts us over the edge of anything past 1st round.
Look what it took for Harden. It'll be less than that but we have the picks to do it. We don't give up RJ either.
My guess is it'll be 3 1st rd picks, Burks and maybe Obi.
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In comment 15131624 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Right now he is reliant on someone setting him up, which is fine..
When he gets the ball he is not used to smaller guys being so strong and bigger guys being quick.
In college he got a little guy he took him into the paint and score, if he got a big on him he blew right by him..
In the NBA that is not always the case..
I think he will be fine, for the Knicks the biggest issue is point guard play
Good calls on all fronts. I didnt watch Toppin in college, but his mobility and wingspan are impressive. He is very similar to Amare in the way he moves.
You're right, he does seem to move like Amare. I think he has less overall athleticism, but probably a chance to be a better shooter/natural scorer. Amare didn't start shooting from the outside right away, and Obi's already doing it.
See, thats where I disagree. Amare's body type and Obi's are almost identical. If obi is diligent about being able to onock down open jumpers, he is Amare Stoudamire pt deux...hopefully minus the injuries. But the guy can absolutely soar effortlessly.
There is some talk about Toppin being a trade piece instead of Randle....right now, after what Ive seen, you keep Toppin and trade Randle.
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In comment 15131739 nygiants16 said:
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Rj, Obi, 21 1st, 22 1st, 23 1st and 24 1st is what it would look like
I like Beal, I really do. I just remember what happened when we emptied the cupboard for a star player. I think that's too high. I don't think Beal puts us over the edge of anything past 1st round.
Look what it took for Harden. It'll be less than that but we have the picks to do it. We don't give up RJ either.
My guess is it'll be 3 1st rd picks, Burks and maybe Obi.
Thats a hard no for me. Swap out Toppin for Randle or swap out one of the 1sts and we can talk. Toppin with Beal is better because Toppin is above the rim and wont dominate the ball.
We keep Randle because he is playing on an All star level under Thibs and he is the only guy on the team currently that is all star level.
Also keep RJ because he is proving he could be a star at this level.
Mitch is a star level defender.
Everyone else is basically moveable or replaceable .
Sure Toppin has potential to develop but they may not only want future draft picks.
Mitch/Noel
Randle
Barrett
Beal
Quickley
That is a pretty good starting 5 and under Thibs with the way they are playing D, they could go far in the East
We keep Randle because he is playing on an All star level under Thibs and he is the only guy on the team currently that is all star level.
Also keep RJ because he is proving he could be a star at this level.
Mitch is a star level defender.
Everyone else is basically moveable or replaceable .
Sure Toppin has potential to develop but they may not only want future draft picks.
Mitch/Noel
Randle
Barrett
Beal
Quickley
That is a pretty good starting 5 and under Thibs with the way they are playing D, they could go far in the East
This would be the dream, but you're not getting Beal without giving up at least one of RJ and Mitch.
Quickley or someone else free agent
Beal
RJ
Randle
Mitch
I know it’s a unlikely to get Beal but that starting 5 is competing and is a piece or 2 away from being a serious contender. I don’t think some people realize how good Beal is.
Then there's Avidja, who plays the 3, which is RJ's natural position. Just not great fits there trade wise.
I still want to see Quickley and Toppin get more PT and Payton and Randall get less (Julius needs more rest), but Thib's concept of putting together a winning mentality for a while before putting the kids out there more isn't a disaster.
Meanwhile, having a potential do-everything pg like quickley as a rookie is pretty exciting stuff, even if it is too early for him to blossom fully at pg after playing mostly the 2 at Kentucky.
Frank’s been questionable for 4 years.
I still want to see Quickley and Toppin get more PT and Payton and Randall get less (Julius needs more rest), but Thib's concept of putting together a winning mentality for a while before putting the kids out there more isn't a disaster.
Meanwhile, having a potential do-everything pg like quickley as a rookie is pretty exciting stuff, even if it is too early for him to blossom fully at pg after playing mostly the 2 at Kentucky.
You bring up very good points, but a few just are off to me.
- I think Thibs is doing the wholesale line changes in an effort to get the younger guys on the floor to play naturally....not feeling pressured to get the ball to Randle or _______ I think that will start changing soon
- Payton definitely does a l9t of good out there. His ability to get to the rim and finish is very good. I dont notice the D you are referring to because I havent really seen him matched up on on ball guards too regularly. Seems to me thats Barrett primarily but I could be mistaken.
- I love Quickley. He just needs to slow down a bit. Just as Barrett and Knox take too long to get into a game, Quick is out like terrier. He is a revelation at that position for sure.
- Toppin has major league potential. Yes, he is older for a rookie, but his body is totally ready, he flies to the hoop, is very quick for his size and has made some plays on D already. I referenced Amare before...he is like a mix of Amare and Shawn Marion. People talk about him as the trade piece over JR....at this point I would rather trade JR while his value is high and try to keep Toppin while bringing in a big swinging dick like Beal. But who knows.