there is no decision. He's a developmental QB who the Giants hope can grow as the team around him grows.
The Giants literally don't have to make a decision on Jones unless a better QB avails himself via either FA or the draft. They won't because the Giants are not picking top 3-5.
Same shit. Different decade. Jones may not have been a rookie in 2020 but he was in a similar spot to many first year QBs. Everyone looks at his numbers but that is such a short sighted and limited viewpoint to take. Was Jones a decent QB over his last 5-6 starts? Forget the numbers. Watch the games. Watch how he handled the offense. Watch how he managed the game. Watch how he threw guys open or how he avoided too many mistakes. He wasn't flashy or amazing but he was clearly a stable influence. Other than the cards game he played solid ball starting against Philly.
I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there. There is no decision to make. Yet.
My thoughts are in line with Dan Shonka's, I think DJ can be a mid-tier QB, good enough to win with, not quite good enough to lift the team when it is struggling. I also like McElroy's Jared Goff comp. A guy who, with the right pieces around him, can get you to the SB, as long as he doesn't turn the ball over.
there is no decision. He's a developmental QB who the Giants hope can grow as the team around him grows.
The Giants literally don't have to make a decision on Jones unless a better QB avails himself via either FA or the draft. They won't because the Giants are not picking top 3-5.
Same shit. Different decade. Jones may not have been a rookie in 2020 but he was in a similar spot to many first year QBs. Everyone looks at his numbers but that is such a short sighted and limited viewpoint to take. Was Jones a decent QB over his last 5-6 starts? Forget the numbers. Watch the games. Watch how he handled the offense. Watch how he managed the game. Watch how he threw guys open or how he avoided too many mistakes. He wasn't flashy or amazing but he was clearly a stable influence. Other than the cards game he played solid ball starting against Philly.
I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there. There is no decision to make. Yet.
I saw a guy who too often held on to the ball too long, locked on to receivers, and too often showed poor pocket awareness.
I agree, there is no decision to make yet, which is what Schwartz is saying, but that time is coming.
...
I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there.
...
This is what this fan base has resorted to....accepting mediocrity. If we're okay with a JAG at QB simply b/c he won't embarrass himself then we deserve the results we've been given over the past decade.
IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
of that post above by the guy who cried about not drafting Darnold for almost two years is fucking hilarious!
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of irony since there's no irony in that post at all. I would make the exact same statement about Darnold if I were a Jets fan.
why people so vehemently defend a QB who at best will be mid tier. Look at the AFC/NFC playoffs this season and let me know which teams are going places with mediocre QB play.
You need a stud QB to carry you to the promised land in the NFL and Jones aint it. Even in his first few years when he was struggling Eli had glimpses of something special with his 2 minute drills and clutch drives.
“I think Daniel Jones is gonna be what he is,’’ Shonka said. “He’s gonna be a middle-of-the-road starting quarterback in the NFL, work his way into the 15-20 range. He’ll be a piece, I don’t think he’ll ever be a star that’s gonna carry a team. He’s got to have guys like Saquon Barkley and the receivers around him and have the running game.
“I think he can be a really good game manager-type quarterback. What bothers me is he turns the ball over more than I remembered in college. Is he a turnover machine?”
When the WR talent is mediocre and the TE drops the ball a lot. Protection although improved still needs improving which should include have the same coaching staff in place. I guess the post needed to have an article.
My thoughts are in line with Dan Shonka's, I think DJ can be a mid-tier QB, good enough to win with, not quite good enough to lift the team when it is struggling. I also like McElroy's Jared Goff comp. A guy who, with the right pieces around him, can get you to the SB, as long as he doesn't turn the ball over.
Doesn’t seem like that evaluation is worthy of being the 6th overall pick in the 2019 draft. I’d be happy at this point if Jones becomes Goff. I don’t see it though.
he can become the guy. But lets give him one more year under this coaching staff to develop, with hopefully some upgraded offensive talent. Move on after next year if he can't prove he's the guy.
Is that he should get a third year to prove himself as other than a low to mid tier QB. Given the turnovers and production, it’s hard to make the case he’s even a mid tier QB.
If the production and turnovers remain the same, a new QB should be brought in for 2022 and the 5th year option should be declined.
I'm seeing what Jeremiah is seeing and the book isn't written yet
The breaking him down to build him back up comment is absolutely on point too. Unfortunately, many people here don't see that. I thought it was obvious what they were doing very early in the season, but I guess not. It's actually pretty common to do with second-year QBs. Judge is no fool and wants to build a guy that he can with a Superbowl with for a decade. The long-term goal here wasn't have him toss 20 plus TDS this year with a bunch of poor decisions thrown in.
The thought process as a rookie is you just let them rip to get accustomed to the speed of the game and in year 2 you work on making them a consistently good QB. Of course, we didn't have any fucking help around him so the TD numbers were low and the interception numbers higher than they should have been.
I feel like we see a combination of what we saw in year 1 and 2 by the end of next year. We still need to get this guy help, and it's so blindingly obvious they alluded to it in the post season presser.
This is a pretty good article spelling out a lot what I believe is the
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
It appears that there are 3 realities at play here:
1. Daniel Jones has shown an ability to be a winning QB.
2. Daniel Jones has shown an ability to be a horrible QB.
3. For various reasons, this will not be the year to make a change at this position.
But his opinion isn’t any better than anyone else’s. He could be right, he could be wrong. I find anyone making any definitive pronouncements about Jones to be far more suspect than Jones himself. Yes, it’s time for Jones to show he is improving. It’s also time for the Giants to provide him even below average NFL talent (as opposed to crap NFL talent) on the offense. Let’s see him with something more than what we’ve seen so far and then make pronouncements that might actually have some basis.
of that post above by the guy who cried about not drafting Darnold for almost two years is fucking hilarious!
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of irony since there's no irony in that post at all. I would make the exact same statement about Darnold if I were a Jets fan.
there is no decision. He's a developmental QB who the Giants hope can grow as the team around him grows.
The Giants literally don't have to make a decision on Jones unless a better QB avails himself via either FA or the draft. They won't because the Giants are not picking top 3-5.
Same shit. Different decade. Jones may not have been a rookie in 2020 but he was in a similar spot to many first year QBs. Everyone looks at his numbers but that is such a short sighted and limited viewpoint to take. Was Jones a decent QB over his last 5-6 starts? Forget the numbers. Watch the games. Watch how he handled the offense. Watch how he managed the game. Watch how he threw guys open or how he avoided too many mistakes. He wasn't flashy or amazing but he was clearly a stable influence. Other than the cards game he played solid ball starting against Philly.
I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there. There is no decision to make. Yet.
I saw a guy who too often held on to the ball too long, locked on to receivers, and too often showed poor pocket awareness.
I agree, there is no decision to make yet, which is what Schwartz is saying, but that time is coming.
all season long you saw those things? I didn't. I saw big problems early on but starting with the win against Philly I saw a more decisive QB.
My thoughts are in line with Dan Shonka's, I think DJ can be a mid-tier QB, good enough to win with, not quite good enough to lift the team when it is struggling. I also like McElroy's Jared Goff comp. A guy who, with the right pieces around him, can get you to the SB, as long as he doesn't turn the ball over.
Agree as well. The article is a decent piece and the comments made by NFL evaluators within it sound pretty damn fair on Jones.
...
I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there.
...
This is what this fan base has resorted to....accepting mediocrity. If we're okay with a JAG at QB simply b/c he won't embarrass himself then we deserve the results we've been given over the past decade.
IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
Oh cry me a river. Accepting mediocre play? who the fuck said that. No one did. Go complain about Sam DArnold.
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
He's Goff with much better speed and doesn't fold under pressure. That's actually a pretty good QB and one worth a second contract. Goff's biggest issue is his pressure/non pressure splits are awful. No QB is good under pressure, but it's important you aren't sinking the team because generally that opens other things up.
Many on BBI will not like it because it doesn't absolve him of all blame for the offense's shortcomings, or close the book on him being a bust. But neither of those things is true anyway.
The challenge has been that the Giants have failed to put a competitive team on the field in years. The question is only is Jones part of that problem, or a result of that problem. This article, like many here have posted, seems to make year 3 make or break. But is it?
We will get a nice read on Jones if the WR, RB and offensive line is much improved, and Jones stays healthy all year. But how likely is it that all of those things happen in 2021?
I don't think 2021 is going to be this magic answer on Daniel Jones many are expecting it to be, either way.
why people so vehemently defend a QB who at best will be mid tier. Look at the AFC/NFC playoffs this season and let me know which teams are going places with mediocre QB play.
You need a stud QB to carry you to the promised land in the NFL and Jones aint it. Even in his first few years when he was struggling Eli had glimpses of something special with his 2 minute drills and clutch drives.
Well, because by your assessment and using just two years as your data point then Eli was destined to be mid tier at best after two years. After 3 years (04, 05, 06) people were outright saying Eli isn't a leader (Tiki) and can't win games on his own.
Anybody who uses 2020 as a barometer is nuts. Jones needs time and honestly better skill players. That isn't like saying oh he had Shockey, Tiki and Toomer and just needs more weapons- we are saying the SHIT show at WR this year, missing Barkley and having a team killer in EE sure the EFF didn't do Jones any favors.
Give him two years in the same system for christ sakes.
we've been down this road so many times now it's laughable. So many QBs who EVERYONE just KNEW were finished products. Fans are insistent on telling the future and for some reason feel compelled to do so before the body of work has yet to be a finished product. Fans also insist that they know more than the coaches know. You don't.
Save it. No one here, not any of the so called realists, not the optimists, no one here knows wtf Jones is.
We saw Eli make so many NYG and NFL fans look so fucking stupid and here we are again with some of the same fans writing the book on Jones. Yet Joe Judge, who has been coaching in the NFL for 10 years plus seems compelled to want to continue working with Jones. Why? It's not because he wants to be right. it's not because Jones doesn't rock the boat. it's not because Jones is from Duke. It's because Jones has talent and has displayed progression.
That's why I think he's got a shot to develop into a legit QB. I am not accepting shit. I am a fan who knows that players get better. Teams get better. Coaching matters.
You don't get to write a QB off every 20 games because you haven't seen enough star power or stats that fit into your nice little agenda. It doesn't work that way. Many QBs do in fact take time to develop. Most QBs do in fact need help. FACTS. Not horse shit logic.
...
I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there.
...
This is what this fan base has resorted to....accepting mediocrity. If we're okay with a JAG at QB simply b/c he won't embarrass himself then we deserve the results we've been given over the past decade.
IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
Oh cry me a river. Accepting mediocre play? who the fuck said that. No one did. Go complain about Sam DArnold.
You did. Literally your argument for sticking with him was that you "feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there." That's the most pathetic standard of evaluation I've heard on BBI...and I was here for the last 5 years of Eli's career when many of you were saying the same shit about him sucking b/c of everything and everyone else.
one for Jones, I'm not sure why we have to keep talking about it on a daily basis. He's either going to improve or not, the team will get better because of him or it will stay as is if he continues to play the way he does.
It appears that there are 3 realities at play here:
1. Daniel Jones has shown an ability to be a winning QB.
2. Daniel Jones has shown an ability to be a horrible QB.
3. For various reasons, this will not be the year to make a change at this position.
short and sweet and exactly right.
But don't forget, some here KNOW Jones won't be a good QB. Judge doesn't know, but Josh does.
...
I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there.
...
This is what this fan base has resorted to....accepting mediocrity. If we're okay with a JAG at QB simply b/c he won't embarrass himself then we deserve the results we've been given over the past decade.
IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
Oh cry me a river. Accepting mediocre play? who the fuck said that. No one did. Go complain about Sam DArnold.
You did. Literally your argument for sticking with him was that you "feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there." That's the most pathetic standard of evaluation I've heard on BBI...and I was here for the last 5 years of Eli's career when many of you were saying the same shit about him sucking b/c of everything and everyone else.
Josh- you clearly forget many (including Tiki) were blaming Eli for them not winning more (not having the leadership to do it) early on. Come on, be fair in your overall assessments.
It appears that there are 3 realities at play here:
1. Daniel Jones has shown an ability to be a winning QB.
2. Daniel Jones has shown an ability to be a horrible QB.
3. For various reasons, this will not be the year to make a change at this position.
short and sweet and exactly right.
But don't forget, some here KNOW Jones won't be a good QB. Judge doesn't know, but Josh does.
Save it.
Ummm....when and where did I say I know Jones won't be a good QB? All I said is that he has to take the next step this year and prove that he can be our true franchise QB otherwise it's time to move on. But again, keep making up nonsense!
i'm guilty of this myself sometimes, but you have a ridiculous ability to call things as facts that aren't facts but your opinion, things that have yet to happen are somehow entrenched in stone with you. I don't want to go down the list of your all time classics but come on man.
and they need to put some weapons around him, solidify the OL, find a tailback better than Gallman to help share the rushing load with SB. A respectable offense should help them contend in the division provided the defense doesn't take a step backwards.
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I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there.
...
This is what this fan base has resorted to....accepting mediocrity. If we're okay with a JAG at QB simply b/c he won't embarrass himself then we deserve the results we've been given over the past decade.
IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
Oh cry me a river. Accepting mediocre play? who the fuck said that. No one did. Go complain about Sam DArnold.
You did. Literally your argument for sticking with him was that you "feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there." That's the most pathetic standard of evaluation I've heard on BBI...and I was here for the last 5 years of Eli's career when many of you were saying the same shit about him sucking b/c of everything and everyone else.
Josh- you clearly forget many (including Tiki) were blaming Eli for them not winning more (not having the leadership to do it) early on. Come on, be fair in your overall assessments.
Not at all...that's part of the reason I'm not ready to move on yet. But there was clearly not enough progress in year 2 and we absolutely have to see it in year 3. If he makes that leap then that's amazing and I'm all in. If he stays in neutral I'm ready to move on.
The NYG seem committed to upgrading the personnel on the offense. Part of that is getting back Barkley. How healthy his knee is next year is a separate issue. Jones will have some continuity as it appears Garrett is sticking around. My point is Jones will have no excuses if he has a poor season. And if he does, we’re essentially in the same boat as the Jets are this year with Darnold except the 2022 draft won’t have the quality of draft prospects at QB as the 2021 draft.
Jones is not shit. Not even close. I read that article yesterday. I agree with most of the takes. I think he has just under top 10 in the league potential. I wanted one of those "guys", maybe he can be, but I am not seeing that. It is is very fair to give him ALL of next year. Not the first 5 games, the whole year, to see how he develops. I will be rooting for him, you should too.
i'm guilty of this myself sometimes, but you have a ridiculous ability to call things as facts that aren't facts but your opinion, things that have yet to happen are somehow entrenched in stone with you. I don't want to go down the list of your all time classics but come on man.
What specifically are you talking about? What did I say was a fact that was my opinion?
I am shocked (not really) that some here don't see the potential in Jones. HE's put up numbers--granted I don't really care about 2019, but he did put up numbers. He's run for 80 yard sprints. He's run for TDs. His rushing numbers are near elite for QBs. He throws a pretty ball with near elite accuracy. He's even won division games this season, going 4-2. He's not the quick twitch athlete that we see in guys like Jackson but he can run the ball and he can throw the ball. He's got talent. Talent goes a long way in the NFL. Coaching and talent are nearly impossible to stop. I know we want instant results but there are factors that come into play. I didn't use the covid lack or prep time excuses for Judge and I won't use them for Jones but a first year HC implementing a new system with a 2nd year QB? Yeah, that's a factor.
You have to give this QB another year with this same staff. IT's ridiculous to think that Jones won't improve in year 2 simply by being more comfortable and coached. The entire team should improve unless Judge is Pat Shumur redux and the first year was as good as it gets here. I doubt that, but I can't say it is impossible. I just don't see Judge as the HC that regresses in year 2 and beyond.
But he’s going to be dependent on what’s around him. That’s normal. There’s only a handful of quarterbacks that can win and play really well independent of what’s around him.
Should be read and understood by many on BBI, because according to many here, finding a QB that can lift the play of those around them and carry the team is easy.
I am shocked (not really) that some here don't see the potential in Jones. HE's put up numbers--granted I don't really care about 2019, but he did put up numbers. He's run for 80 yard sprints. He's run for TDs. His rushing numbers are near elite for QBs. He throws a pretty ball with near elite accuracy. He's even won division games this season, going 4-2. He's not the quick twitch athlete that we see in guys like Jackson but he can run the ball and he can throw the ball. He's got talent. Talent goes a long way in the NFL. Coaching and talent are nearly impossible to stop. I know we want instant results but there are factors that come into play. I didn't use the covid lack or prep time excuses for Judge and I won't use them for Jones but a first year HC implementing a new system with a 2nd year QB? Yeah, that's a factor.
You have to give this QB another year with this same staff. IT's ridiculous to think that Jones won't improve in year 2 simply by being more comfortable and coached. The entire team should improve unless Judge is Pat Shumur redux and the first year was as good as it gets here. I doubt that, but I can't say it is impossible. I just don't see Judge as the HC that regresses in year 2 and beyond.
Enough with potential and hopes and dreams and unicorns and rainbows. PRODUCE and WIN GAMES or it's time to move on. That is literally only thing that matters. Not potential...WINS. And there is no position on the field that has a more direct impact on wins than the QB. I couldn't give a shit if he had more potential than Mahomes. If the potential doesn't result in this team actually winning again then it doesn't matter!
"if we are OK with a JAG we are accepting mediocrity"
"hoping that someone will become something they are not"
It's called developing a quarterback. Just because Jones isn't a star right now doesn't mean he won't be in the future. It doesn't mean he will be. But your ability to act like he can't get better is infuriating, you're the same as Terps when it comes to this shit
ownership tends to share the optimistic hopeful approach, which tends to cloud some judgements and delay some tough decisions. Can only hope they're self-scouting better and being much more honest about the product on the field, because you need a top QB to be a perennial winner at this level.
one for Jones, I'm not sure why we have to keep talking about it on a daily basis. He's either going to improve or not, the team will get better because of him or it will stay as is if he continues to play the way he does.
I don't necessarily think this is true.
I can see a scenario in which the rest of team does develop and get better but the QB does not. Ask the Bears how that's working out for them.
If that happens - it gets real hard to find a QB that can take you to the promised land b/c other teams don't just let them walk out the door.
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I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there.
...
This is what this fan base has resorted to....accepting mediocrity. If we're okay with a JAG at QB simply b/c he won't embarrass himself then we deserve the results we've been given over the past decade.
IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
Cool! So why don't you stop showing up and bothering people with your less than mediocre posts?1
"if we are OK with a JAG we are accepting mediocrity"
"hoping that someone will become something they are not"
It's called developing a quarterback. Just because Jones isn't a star right now doesn't mean he won't be in the future. It doesn't mean he will be. But your ability to act like he can't get better is infuriating, you're the same as Terps when it comes to this shit
But as I've stated numerous times above, I am 100% ok with developing a QB as long as they show the necessary improvement year to year. My point is, and this isn't an opinion, that we shouldn't be ok continuing to roll with a JAG that DOESN'T take that next step. That's what bogs down franchises and ends up causing them to stay in no man's land for years without ever getting over the hump.
And same goes for that 2nd statement. You can't keep hoping a player will make that leap just b/c you like them or want them to. They need to prove it on the field or you have to make the tough decision to find someone else who can. It's a results business.
I get as fans many of us choose to live in this alternate reality where we're always hoping that the next game or next season will be different even if we remain with the status quo. But I'm sorry, I just don't look at things like that. Show me results or I'm ready to pull the plug. And to be honest, he didn't show NEARLY enough in year two to make me think he will do it in year three. But as a fan, I'm still hopeful and I'm willing to give him that all important third year to see if he can do it. That doesn't mean I'm playing off my opinion as fact. That's just the harsh reality of any business and, in particular, the NFL.
ownership tends to share the optimistic hopeful approach, which tends to cloud some judgements and delay some tough decisions. Can only hope they're self-scouting better and being much more honest about the product on the field, because you need a top QB to be a perennial winner at this level.
there you go again. Jones is 23 years old. He needs a tad more time to develop.
You guys have seriously forgotten how it takes time to develop as a NFL quarterback. You're embarrassing yourselves.
What do you do if you were a decision maker with the team and Jones has a poor year and the team goes 6-10 or 5-11? Does he get a 4th year? Or in a period where it has never been easier for young QB’s to succeed than it is now, does a poor year cement the notion that the dye is cast on what DJ is?
there you go again. Jones is 23 years old. He needs a tad more time to develop.
You guys have seriously forgotten how it takes time to develop as a NFL quarterback. You're embarrassing yourselves.
What do you do if you were a decision maker with the team and Jones has a poor year and the team goes 6-10 or 5-11? Does he get a 4th year? Or in a period where it has never been easier for young QB’s to succeed than it is now, does a poor year cement the notion that the dye is cast on what DJ is?
To me, 2021 is the shit or get off the pot year for Jones.
of that post above by the guy who cried about not drafting Darnold for almost two years is fucking hilarious!
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of irony since there's no irony in that post at all. I would make the exact same statement about Darnold if I were a Jets fan.
This is correct.
It's actually not.
I think it's Josh who doesn't understand irony. His Jones statement is compared to what he *had* whined about Darnold and not on what he *may* or *would* have hypothetically said.
You can't tell me that he can't make those plays and make more touchdowns. Maybe its a presumption on my part, but I think with better recievers, his numbers would be better.
of that post above by the guy who cried about not drafting Darnold for almost two years is fucking hilarious!
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of irony since there's no irony in that post at all. I would make the exact same statement about Darnold if I were a Jets fan.
This is correct.
It's actually not.
I think it's Josh who doesn't understand irony. His Jones statement is compared to what he *had* whined about Darnold and not on what he *may* or *would* have hypothetically said.
Huh? It would be ironic if I HAD said that the Jets should continue to stick with Darnold and give him a big contract even though his play hasn't resulted in wins. But since I never stated that, where's the irony? Or do you also not know what irony means?
with better weapons and OL play to support him. But, is he the QB to chase championships is the key point. With our minds over our hearts, do we envision him hoisting a Lombardi ...
is not good enough in today's NFL. Too many things have to go right in order to win. And even when they do go right, it is unsustainable. The only way to sustained winning in this league is to have an elite QB. And it is unlikely that Jones will reach that level.
with better weapons and OL play to support him. But, is he the QB to chase championships is the key point. With our minds over our hearts, do we envision him hoisting a Lombardi ...
i know I can't see it.
RE: I think Jones needs a good OLine for him to succeed
with better weapons and OL play to support him. But, is he the QB to chase championships is the key point. With our minds over our hearts, do we envision him hoisting a Lombardi ...
Too soon to say. Need to see what he does with "better" weapons this year. My single biggest concern with Jones is his pocket presence. There may have been slight improvement from his rookie yr but he has such a long way to go in terms of feeling the rush that I'm just don't know. Even the game plan this year had him getting the ball our super quickly b/c it seems the coaching staff recognized that weakness as well. We'll see...
I just think sometimes there will be some uncertainty injected into a QB's development plan. That's how shit goes more often than not. Some now want to kill Jones and the Giants for staying the course despite some concerns with the young QB? I think that's pretty ridiculous. It's one thing to point out the questions with Jones. ONe thing to be a little concerned or hesitant but if you're gonna kill every team for sort of powering through a young QB's developmental period you're basically going to kill just about every team. Mahomes and Rodgers are rare. Eli and Josh Allen aren't even that common. Tannehill isn't that common either. But the shades of grey or variances with all these QBs is common.
with better weapons and OL play to support him. But, is he the QB to chase championships is the key point. With our minds over our hearts, do we envision him hoisting a Lombardi ...
Too soon to say. Need to see what he does with "better" weapons this year. My single biggest concern with Jones is his pocket presence. There may have been slight improvement from his rookie yr but he has such a long way to go in terms of feeling the rush that I'm just don't know. Even the game plan this year had him getting the ball our super quickly b/c it seems the coaching staff recognized that weakness as well. We'll see...
I don't think it is smart to "wait" around for a guy. If you don't have a guy playing at an elite level, you don't have a guy. Period. The Giants would be smart to proceed as though they don't have a franchise QB. If he surprises us - great. If you are "waiting" for a guy to show himself, you are wasting your most precious resource - time.
with better weapons and OL play to support him. But, is he the QB to chase championships is the key point. With our minds over our hearts, do we envision him hoisting a Lombardi ...
Love this question - wonder what a BBI poll would show...
all the time, or if Eric just cuts and pastes comments from old ones into new ones. But this is the same people making the same comments in every thread.
Two facts:
1. Nobody knows for sure what Jones will and won't be.
2. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion on what Jones has been and they think he will be. And they are only that - opinions. Nobody's opinion is stupid because it is different from your own.
I just think sometimes there will be some uncertainty injected into a QB's development plan. That's how shit goes more often than not. Some now want to kill Jones and the Giants for staying the course despite some concerns with the young QB? I think that's pretty ridiculous. It's one thing to point out the questions with Jones. ONe thing to be a little concerned or hesitant but if you're gonna kill every team for sort of powering through a young QB's developmental period you're basically going to kill just about every team. Mahomes and Rodgers are rare. Eli and Josh Allen aren't even that common. Tannehill isn't that common either. But the shades of grey or variances with all these QBs is common.
But no, it's really not that rare in today's NFL for highly drafted QB's to make that leap by year three. Off the top of my head, these are the QB's who were drafted in the last 3 yrs that have already showed signs of being a franchise QB:
Josh Allen
Lamar Jackson
Kyler Murray
Baker Mayfield
Justin Herbert
Deshaun Watson
And quite frankly, the other QB's not on this list that have been in the league for 3 yrs I'd be ready to move on from! Which is why next yr is so important for Jones.
all the time, or if Eric just cuts and pastes comments from old ones into new ones. But this is the same people making the same comments in every thread.
Two facts:
1. Nobody knows for sure what Jones will and won't be.
2. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion on what Jones has been and they think he will be. And they are only that - opinions. Nobody's opinion is stupid because it is different from your own.
Love this - it's also why it's fun (for me) to continually debate it...b/c there is no definitive answer right now...It's also why I get people that chose not to engage over and over again.
I just think sometimes there will be some uncertainty injected into a QB's development plan. That's how shit goes more often than not. Some now want to kill Jones and the Giants for staying the course despite some concerns with the young QB? I think that's pretty ridiculous. It's one thing to point out the questions with Jones. ONe thing to be a little concerned or hesitant but if you're gonna kill every team for sort of powering through a young QB's developmental period you're basically going to kill just about every team. Mahomes and Rodgers are rare. Eli and Josh Allen aren't even that common. Tannehill isn't that common either. But the shades of grey or variances with all these QBs is common.
We've already passed on one excellent QB prospect (Herbert) to continue seeing what we have in Jones. Will we miss on any this year? The year after?
I'm not on board with "giving' him one more year. He hasn't earned it.
I'll say it again: if Jones were a journeyman vet or a UDFA he would have been cut after how he played in 2020. The only reason he enters 2021 as the starter is the draft investment made in him. Shitty way to do business.
and I'm not comparing the two, but can you imagine if Engram was Rodgers #1 target?
Davante Adams was targeted 159 times and didn't drop a single ball. Not one. Engram was targeted 109 times and dropped 8, with 6 of them resulting in INTs!
DJ played behind a pretty horrendous inexperienced OL for the first half of the season and played with f*cking Engram as his #1 target for the entire year.
Let's see him w/ Barkley, a better OL and some better receivers before we give up on him.
and I'm not comparing the two, but can you imagine if Engram was Rodgers #1 target?
Davante Adams was targeted 159 times and didn't drop a single ball. Not one. Engram was targeted 109 times and dropped 8, with 6 of them resulting in INTs!
DJ played behind a pretty horrendous inexperienced OL for the first half of the season and played with f*cking Engram as his #1 target for the entire year.
Let's see him w/ Barkley, a better OL and some better receivers before we give up on him.
and they need to put some weapons around him, solidify the OL, find a tailback better than Gallman to help share the rushing load with SB. A respectable offense should help them contend in the division provided the defense doesn't take a step backwards.
Finding a backup RB is really an underrated part of this offseason. No way you can go into the season with Saquon and nothing else. Can't just give him a ton of carries defacto until his confidence and conditioning get up to snuff. We also see the results of having a journeyman backup getting significant time. Hitting on a midround pick here would be huge. Plus if Saquon is in the Giants long term plans, the season after that 2k carry mark is generally where ability declines.
and I'm not comparing the two, but can you imagine if Engram was Rodgers #1 target?
Davante Adams was targeted 159 times and didn't drop a single ball. Not one. Engram was targeted 109 times and dropped 8, with 6 of them resulting in INTs!
DJ played behind a pretty horrendous inexperienced OL for the first half of the season and played with f*cking Engram as his #1 target for the entire year.
Let's see him w/ Barkley, a better OL and some better receivers before we give up on him.
Aaron Rodgers would throw the ball to someone else.
with better weapons and OL play to support him. But, is he the QB to chase championships is the key point. With our minds over our hearts, do we envision him hoisting a Lombardi ...
He stands tall in the pocket and shows a lot of courage back there. And he throws a nice ball. He can gouge a defense with his legs, and if the Giants secure a true #1 WR next season via the Draft or Free Agency, I expect Daniel Jones' stats to improve over 2020.
Now the bad news. Daniel Jones has neither the pocket presence, flexibility, elusiveness, array of arm angle throws, vision nor creativeness to be anything but an average-to-mediocre NFL QB.
I am shocked (not really) that some here don't see the potential in Jones. HE's put up numbers--granted I don't really care about 2019, but he did put up numbers. He's run for 80 yard sprints. He's run for TDs. His rushing numbers are near elite for QBs. He throws a pretty ball with near elite accuracy. He's even won division games this season, going 4-2. He's not the quick twitch athlete that we see in guys like Jackson but he can run the ball and he can throw the ball. He's got talent. Talent goes a long way in the NFL. Coaching and talent are nearly impossible to stop. I know we want instant results but there are factors that come into play. I didn't use the covid lack or prep time excuses for Judge and I won't use them for Jones but a first year HC implementing a new system with a 2nd year QB? Yeah, that's a factor.
You have to give this QB another year with this same staff. IT's ridiculous to think that Jones won't improve in year 2 simply by being more comfortable and coached. The entire team should improve unless Judge is Pat Shumur redux and the first year was as good as it gets here. I doubt that, but I can't say it is impossible. I just don't see Judge as the HC that regresses in year 2 and beyond.
Enough with potential and hopes and dreams and unicorns and rainbows. PRODUCE and WIN GAMES or it's time to move on. That is literally only thing that matters. Not potential...WINS. And there is no position on the field that has a more direct impact on wins than the QB. I couldn't give a shit if he had more potential than Mahomes. If the potential doesn't result in this team actually winning again then it doesn't matter!
LOL.
Quote:
He's fucking horrible
Josh in the City : 4/25/2019 10:57 pm : link
Sorry there is no sugar coating it. Will go down as the worst pick and biggest reach in franchise history. Taking a day 3 guy at 6 overall. Doesn't get any worse. Fire gettleman!
Quote:
DANIEL JONES SUCKS
Josh in the City : 4/19/2019 11:39 am : link
Just watch the damn tape! I 100% do not believe any scout who has watched every one of his games would advocate drafting him in the first two days of the draft. That's not me being extra negative he really wasn't impressive at all. He was also one of the worst players on the field at the Senior Bowl. I believe the love for him on this board comes down to the fact that rumors suggest the Giants may take him and people are hoping for the best. Nothing about his tape or performance suggests he will ever be anything more than a backup QB in the NFL at best.
1) Jones has the ability to be a top 10-12 QB but not likely headed for superstardom. And that is ok.
2) Jones is likely trying a bit too hard and pressing. At some point he needs to let the game breath a bit and allow his ability and instinct to kick in.
Quickness. D.j.’s Read and react speed, deceptiveness, not locking onto just one receiver, may never get better......and certainly he will never be elite. If you look around the league and try and see which team got suckered into their first round qb.....you realize, it’s you. Best play in keeping him is commit to surrounding him with a massive expenditure on talent, defense, OL, receivers must all be stellar, just never rely on DJ to win a game and expect one or two turnovers from him every game......and keep an active qb search ongoing, remember, tom goat brady was a sixth round choice.
of that post above by the guy who cried about not drafting Darnold for almost two years is fucking hilarious!
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of irony since there's no irony in that post at all. I would make the exact same statement about Darnold if I were a Jets fan.
You would??
Quote:
Did any of you actually
Josh in the City : 2/27/2020 11:03 am : link
watch the Jets this year? Their talent was as bad as ours and they finished 7-9. Darnold had mono this year and still finished the season 7-6 as a starter on that horrendous team. The strides he made were fantastic
Fortunately, if Judge can influence more decisions in player selection maybe an offense can be built around Jones. But that's going to require a lot of investment and some good luck hitting draft picks and free agent signings.
Because Jones has revealed who he is - a game manager. And now it's just a matter of figuring out what level of game manager he is.
We really overshot drafting Jones at #6. Talent wise, he's in the bottom third of the league. Production wise, he's bottom third of the league. We're really in "fingers crossed" territory with this guy right now...
There are at least four QBs in this draft more gifted than Jones. Significantly. To not consider an opportunity to reboot by drafting one of them - if available - is very hard to reconcile...
So, again, let's hope Judge can work this to a good conclusion.
of that post above by the guy who cried about not drafting Darnold for almost two years is fucking hilarious!
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of irony since there's no irony in that post at all. I would make the exact same statement about Darnold if I were a Jets fan.
This is correct.
It's actually not.
I think it's Josh who doesn't understand irony. His Jones statement is compared to what he *had* whined about Darnold and not on what he *may* or *would* have hypothetically said.
Fortunately, if Judge can influence more decisions in player selection maybe an offense can be built around Jones. But that's going to require a lot of investment and some good luck hitting draft picks and free agent signings.
Because Jones has revealed who he is - a game manager. And now it's just a matter of figuring out what level of game manager he is.
We really overshot drafting Jones at #6. Talent wise, he's in the bottom third of the league. Production wise, he's bottom third of the league. We're really in "fingers crossed" territory with this guy right now...
There are at least four QBs in this draft more gifted than Jones. Significantly. To not consider an opportunity to reboot by drafting one of them - if available - is very hard to reconcile...
So, again, let's hope Judge can work this to a good conclusion.
I think this is fair.
It's not like this guy has zero NFL tape.
I agree with the point many are making - no one can say definitively what kind of QB DJ will be for the duration of his career...but we can project somewhat based on what we've seen for the better part of two years.
Fortunately, if Judge can influence more decisions in player selection maybe an offense can be built around Jones. But that's going to require a lot of investment and some good luck hitting draft picks and free agent signings.
Because Jones has revealed who he is - a game manager. And now it's just a matter of figuring out what level of game manager he is.
We really overshot drafting Jones at #6. Talent wise, he's in the bottom third of the league. Production wise, he's bottom third of the league. We're really in "fingers crossed" territory with this guy right now...
There are at least four QBs in this draft more gifted than Jones. Significantly. To not consider an opportunity to reboot by drafting one of them - if available - is very hard to reconcile...
So, again, let's hope Judge can work this to a good conclusion.
Agree with the Judge-related comments. Not there yet on everybody else being so much more gifted.
May very well be Giants are wasting another by keeping Jones in the saddle, but I don't think its unreasonable to give him that opportunity, especially if Judge backs him right now.
Besides, based on the overall weak roster, are we really wasting anything anyway in 2021?
there is no decision. He's a developmental QB who the Giants hope can grow as the team around him grows.
The Giants literally don't have to make a decision on Jones unless a better QB avails himself via either FA or the draft. They won't because the Giants are not picking top 3-5.
Same shit. Different decade. Jones may not have been a rookie in 2020 but he was in a similar spot to many first year QBs. Everyone looks at his numbers but that is such a short sighted and limited viewpoint to take. Was Jones a decent QB over his last 5-6 starts? Forget the numbers. Watch the games. Watch how he handled the offense. Watch how he managed the game. Watch how he threw guys open or how he avoided too many mistakes. He wasn't flashy or amazing but he was clearly a stable influence. Other than the cards game he played solid ball starting against Philly.
I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there. There is no decision to make. Yet.
Daniel Jones, and the Giants' situation as it relates to him now that the roster around him is beginning to bear fruit, may very well be (and ironically so) the exact scenario that DG himself described as "QB hell" just a few years ago. Not good enough to reach the next level; not bad enough to sink to the level below where a top-notch QB prospect is available.
Since when does what BBI thinks become relevant to what the team does?
Maybe not BBI per se, but the fanbase's collective temper tantrum in 2017 - and John Mara's reaction to that tantrum - set this team back by two years.
I am shocked (not really) that some here don't see the potential in Jones. HE's put up numbers--granted I don't really care about 2019, but he did put up numbers. He's run for 80 yard sprints. He's run for TDs. His rushing numbers are near elite for QBs. He throws a pretty ball with near elite accuracy. He's even won division games this season, going 4-2. He's not the quick twitch athlete that we see in guys like Jackson but he can run the ball and he can throw the ball. He's got talent. Talent goes a long way in the NFL. Coaching and talent are nearly impossible to stop. I know we want instant results but there are factors that come into play. I didn't use the covid lack or prep time excuses for Judge and I won't use them for Jones but a first year HC implementing a new system with a 2nd year QB? Yeah, that's a factor.
You have to give this QB another year with this same staff. IT's ridiculous to think that Jones won't improve in year 2 simply by being more comfortable and coached. The entire team should improve unless Judge is Pat Shumur redux and the first year was as good as it gets here. I doubt that, but I can't say it is impossible. I just don't see Judge as the HC that regresses in year 2 and beyond.
Enough with potential and hopes and dreams and unicorns and rainbows. PRODUCE and WIN GAMES or it's time to move on. That is literally only thing that matters. Not potential...WINS. And there is no position on the field that has a more direct impact on wins than the QB. I couldn't give a shit if he had more potential than Mahomes. If the potential doesn't result in this team actually winning again then it doesn't matter!
LOL.
Quote:
He's fucking horrible
Josh in the City : 4/25/2019 10:57 pm : link
Sorry there is no sugar coating it. Will go down as the worst pick and biggest reach in franchise history. Taking a day 3 guy at 6 overall. Doesn't get any worse. Fire gettleman!
Quote:
DANIEL JONES SUCKS
Josh in the City : 4/19/2019 11:39 am : link
Just watch the damn tape! I 100% do not believe any scout who has watched every one of his games would advocate drafting him in the first two days of the draft. That's not me being extra negative he really wasn't impressive at all. He was also one of the worst players on the field at the Senior Bowl. I believe the love for him on this board comes down to the fact that rumors suggest the Giants may take him and people are hoping for the best. Nothing about his tape or performance suggests he will ever be anything more than a backup QB in the NFL at best.
LOL so what are you saying!? That after two seasons it looks like I was right along on draft night!? Thanks I guess?
of that post above by the guy who cried about not drafting Darnold for almost two years is fucking hilarious!
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of irony since there's no irony in that post at all. I would make the exact same statement about Darnold if I were a Jets fan.
You would??
Quote:
Did any of you actually
Josh in the City : 2/27/2020 11:03 am : link
watch the Jets this year? Their talent was as bad as ours and they finished 7-9. Darnold had mono this year and still finished the season 7-6 as a starter on that horrendous team. The strides he made were fantastic
Once again, this post was made after last season when Darnold DID take strides in year 2 and started showing substantial results. However, with more data after year three in which the results regressed, I would 100% not give Darnold a big contract or even pick up his 5th yr option. Again, you're not doing anything except proving my points for me so thanks.
boils down to this. Jones should get one more year to prove his naysayers, including me, wrong. If he does then that's great we have our franchise QB. If not, then it's time to find his replacement.
"if we are OK with a JAG we are accepting mediocrity"
"hoping that someone will become something they are not"
It's called developing a quarterback. Just because Jones isn't a star right now doesn't mean he won't be in the future. It doesn't mean he will be. But your ability to act like he can't get better is infuriating, you're the same as Terps when it comes to this shit
Look, we get it - you don't watch any NFL games other than the Giants. But NFL QBs are winning the MVP award in their second season. They're establishing themselves as franchise cornerstones by their second season. They are proving they belong by their second season.
This antiquated QB development timeline that Giants fans cling to as a justification for Jones's slow growth at the most pivotal position in sports is just not aligned with how the NFL operates anymore.
To his credit (and I am not one to give DG credit), we are building a roster that actually has a chance to compete but doing so thus far in spite of our QB rather than because of him. A year from now, we'll probably be an 8-8 team with another season of question marks from Jones, and we'll be even farther away from the sort of prospect that can be a franchise QB. And we'll settle in for a half-decade of bouncing between 7-9 and 9-7 with draft picks that land between the 14th and 20th selection. Eventually, we'll have to either bottom out again or empty the cupboard for a QB prospect.
I'll go on record right now and say that we'll just trot on the treadmill until Arch Manning is that prospect that we finally go all-in for, and then we'll pull the trigger like we did for his uncle - Jones or whatever other fungible journeyman placeholder is available will man the position until then. This franchise is predictable enough to make that claim this far in advance.
Quote:
IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
Duh...isn't that exactly what the article says?
RE: RE: The problem with the Jones decision is simple.
Suppose he turns into an OK QB. Is he going to be okay with an OK contract? (say, $15-20 million/year).
That is the main factor besides his performance, because the Giants will pay him at the upper levels of scale unless he crashes and burns.
Which is why it was so disheartening to see Gettleman keep his job. Jones's biggest rabbi is still in the building; if He went and Judge were keen to move on we might be looking at making the move this off-season. Shit, if Gettleman weren't in the building last year maybe we draft Herbert.
Judge needs to be the guy making the call. And with Gettleman and Garrett (both chosen by Mara, not Judge) still in the building the potential for a difference of opinions (and Gettleman having the final say) is very real.
If the Giants give him upper scale money based on the production we are seeing now that will be a complete disgrace. I can only hope the Giants will evaluate him without any bias after the third season.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
... to be a top 5 or 6 QB? Best case scenario he’s in the 10-15 range, a guy you can compete with if you gather enough weapons around him. Why not keep looking for an Allen or a Herbert? Why settle for mediocrity?
RE: Is there anyone who thinks he has a ceiling ...
... to be a top 5 or 6 QB? Best case scenario he’s in the 10-15 range, a guy you can compete with if you gather enough weapons around him. Why not keep looking for an Allen or a Herbert? Why settle for mediocrity?
If the Giants give him upper scale money based on the production we are seeing now that will be a complete disgrace. I can only hope the Giants will evaluate him without any bias after the third season.
He still needs to earn his next contract, but look at what the fifth year option will cost and then go up from there on what a typical second contract will cost.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
had no weapons this year. As the article indicates, we need another year to determine whether he should be the QB of the Giants. But impatience has always been the dominant characteristic of BBI patrons.
I'm also not convinced his ceiling is "advanced game manager." There have been times when he has played at an extremely high level.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
I don't buy that. Judge had other options than the Giants.
Also, can it be proven that Garrett was mandated by Mara?
yeah, I think DJ has a skillset to be a top 10 NFL QB. Everyone here is afraid to say it but yes I do.
Fair enough Ryan. You can win a SB I guess without an elite top 5 of 6 guy (see the Foles run), but looking at the 4 monsters left in the final 4 this year, it’s a much tougher fight.
My major concern is that DJ is not really a developmental QB, that’s he had 4 years of Cutliffe (and a great work ethic), but still has gaps in processing the field and pocket presence. And it’d kill me if, for example, the Steelers moved up and grabbed Lance and they hit it big. Hope the Giants scout the hell out of Lance.
yeah, I think DJ has a skillset to be a top 10 NFL QB. Everyone here is afraid to say it but yes I do.
Fair enough Ryan. You can win a SB I guess without an elite top 5 of 6 guy (see the Foles run), but looking at the 4 monsters left in the final 4 this year, it’s a much tougher fight.
My major concern is that DJ is not really a developmental QB, that’s he had 4 years of Cutliffe (and a great work ethic), but still has gaps in processing the field and pocket presence. And it’d kill me if, for example, the Steelers moved up and grabbed Lance and they hit it big. Hope the Giants scout the hell out of Lance.
We can argue this all day, but Brady is no longer a top 5 QB. He went to a loaded situation because he's no dummy, but everyone is lapping this hook line and sinker. It was all Brady those years and not Belichik! This Bucs team is arguable the most talented in the league, they just needed a QB with better decision making. I've watched the Bucs a ton the last five years and Jameis singlehandedly would sink them on weekly basis and why Arians hated him.
I just heard Peter King say this is Bradys second best year and I almost spit my coffee out. Some guys literally can't see past stats.
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
that any of the other QBs listed, especially Herbert would have fared any better then Jones has in the exact same circumstances.
In fact, given the dubious IQ's of a few of those QBs, they'd probably have made those circumstances worse.
But its BBI and there's more ground that needs beating with dead horses.
The funniest part to me is that the Chargers are getting all this credit for drafting Herbert and "seeing it" with him. Yet who they drafted has been confirmed that it was whoever the Dolphins didn't. Yet Tua struggled this year and that makes sense considering the talent surrounding both QBs. And thats the way NFL teams look at it, nobody plans on drafting an elite QB like Mahomes or possibly Allen, they draft a guy they can surround with talent that they can win with. Just look at Brady this year. All that team needed was a solid QB, which Brady still is at this point of his career.
RE: RE: This is a pretty good article spelling out a lot what I believe is the
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
"if we are OK with a JAG we are accepting mediocrity"
"hoping that someone will become something they are not"
It's called developing a quarterback. Just because Jones isn't a star right now doesn't mean he won't be in the future. It doesn't mean he will be. But your ability to act like he can't get better is infuriating, you're the same as Terps when it comes to this shit
Look, we get it - you don't watch any NFL games other than the Giants. But NFL QBs are winning the MVP award in their second season. They're establishing themselves as franchise cornerstones by their second season. They are proving they belong by their second season.
This antiquated QB development timeline that Giants fans cling to as a justification for Jones's slow growth at the most pivotal position in sports is just not aligned with how the NFL operates anymore.
To his credit (and I am not one to give DG credit), we are building a roster that actually has a chance to compete but doing so thus far in spite of our QB rather than because of him. A year from now, we'll probably be an 8-8 team with another season of question marks from Jones, and we'll be even farther away from the sort of prospect that can be a franchise QB. And we'll settle in for a half-decade of bouncing between 7-9 and 9-7 with draft picks that land between the 14th and 20th selection. Eventually, we'll have to either bottom out again or empty the cupboard for a QB prospect.
I'll go on record right now and say that we'll just trot on the treadmill until Arch Manning is that prospect that we finally go all-in for, and then we'll pull the trigger like we did for his uncle - Jones or whatever other fungible journeyman placeholder is available will man the position until then. This franchise is predictable enough to make that claim this far in advance.
Funny you say that because I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants tread water until Arch Manning comes out and sell the farm for him.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
You repeatedly sing the praises of every single member of the team, and then you act like it's some sort of major accomplishment for a prospect to have won you over. Of course they won you over, simply by wearing blue you have them in the top 10 players at their position.
But his opinion isn’t any better than anyone else’s. He could be right, he could be wrong. I find anyone making any definitive pronouncements about Jones to be far more suspect than Jones himself. Yes, it’s time for Jones to show he is improving. It’s also time for the Giants to provide him even below average NFL talent (as opposed to crap NFL talent) on the offense. Let’s see him with something more than what we’ve seen so far and then make pronouncements that might actually have some basis.
Very true, but shouldn't that also apply to Jeremiah's comments about DJ being a top-5 QB? At this point, there is much more evidence that he is a middle of the road QB than a pro bowler.
As I've said, you can win a SB with a mid-tier guy, you obviously need a more well-rounded team than, say, the 2011 Giants, which had a terrible running game and defense, but the QB cannot turn the ball over (although, in DJ's defense, he was much better with that in the 2nd half).
yeah, I think DJ has a skillset to be a top 10 NFL QB. Everyone here is afraid to say it but yes I do.
Fair enough Ryan. You can win a SB I guess without an elite top 5 of 6 guy (see the Foles run), but looking at the 4 monsters left in the final 4 this year, it’s a much tougher fight.
My major concern is that DJ is not really a developmental QB, that’s he had 4 years of Cutliffe (and a great work ethic), but still has gaps in processing the field and pocket presence. And it’d kill me if, for example, the Steelers moved up and grabbed Lance and they hit it big. Hope the Giants scout the hell out of Lance.
We can argue this all day, but Brady is no longer a top 5 QB. He went to a loaded situation because he's no dummy, but everyone is lapping this hook line and sinker. It was all Brady those years and not Belichik! This Bucs team is arguable the most talented in the league, they just needed a QB with better decision making. I've watched the Bucs a ton the last five years and Jameis singlehandedly would sink them on weekly basis and why Arians hated him.
I just heard Peter King say this is Bradys second best year and I almost spit my coffee out. Some guys literally can't see past stats.
The flip side of that though, Zeke, is Tuna’s famous line about how at some point, you are what your record says you are, right? We have five seasons of work to judge Jones on. What does his record say about him? It says 80 plus turnovers in 60 games and a losing record. Fingers crossed he develops in 2021, hope he gets his “Diggs” to work with, and turns things around.
Daniel Jones comp by many scouts coming out of college
Daniel Jones projects as a potential starter, but he's not going to be a universal prospect. Jones needs to work in an offense that is predicated on dispersing the football quickly out of his hands and allows for a lot of rhythm work and downfield routes. Jones' work under pressure is also of concern, so he'll need to work behind an established, effective offensive line if he's going to reach his ceiling, which projects as an average starting quarterback in the NFL. Scheme dependent but starter qualities.
I couldn't agree more with both the comp and report, which is why the Giants need to continue to improve the OL. It's gotten better, but still average at best.
with better weapons and OL play to support him. But, is he the QB to chase championships is the key point. With our minds over our hearts, do we envision him hoisting a Lombardi ...
Not one person should say yes to that after last season. And I'm not anti Jones by any means. But the stats are the stats.
"if we are OK with a JAG we are accepting mediocrity"
"hoping that someone will become something they are not"
It's called developing a quarterback. Just because Jones isn't a star right now doesn't mean he won't be in the future. It doesn't mean he will be. But your ability to act like he can't get better is infuriating, you're the same as Terps when it comes to this shit
Look, we get it - you don't watch any NFL games other than the Giants. But NFL QBs are winning the MVP award in their second season. They're establishing themselves as franchise cornerstones by their second season. They are proving they belong by their second season.
This antiquated QB development timeline that Giants fans cling to as a justification for Jones's slow growth at the most pivotal position in sports is just not aligned with how the NFL operates anymore.
To his credit (and I am not one to give DG credit), we are building a roster that actually has a chance to compete but doing so thus far in spite of our QB rather than because of him. A year from now, we'll probably be an 8-8 team with another season of question marks from Jones, and we'll be even farther away from the sort of prospect that can be a franchise QB. And we'll settle in for a half-decade of bouncing between 7-9 and 9-7 with draft picks that land between the 14th and 20th selection. Eventually, we'll have to either bottom out again or empty the cupboard for a QB prospect.
I'll go on record right now and say that we'll just trot on the treadmill until Arch Manning is that prospect that we finally go all-in for, and then we'll pull the trigger like we did for his uncle - Jones or whatever other fungible journeyman placeholder is available will man the position until then. This franchise is predictable enough to make that claim this far in advance.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
I don't have confirmation. I also don't have confirmation that Judge picked Garrett, so that would also be supposition.
We know that Garrett is right with the Maras. We know they were going to consider him for the head coach job. We know the Giants' offense was pathetic, yet Gettleman said they're antsy about the prospect of losing Garrett.
My supposition is that Garrett was Mara's pick. I suppose I could be wrong. What do you think?
RE: Daniel Jones comp by many scouts coming out of college
Daniel Jones projects as a potential starter, but he's not going to be a universal prospect. Jones needs to work in an offense that is predicated on dispersing the football quickly out of his hands and allows for a lot of rhythm work and downfield routes. Jones' work under pressure is also of concern, so he'll need to work behind an established, effective offensive line if he's going to reach his ceiling, which projects as an average starting quarterback in the NFL. Scheme dependent but starter qualities.
I couldn't agree more with both the comp and report, which is why the Giants need to continue to improve the OL. It's gotten better, but still average at best.
Exactly... In Shurmurs system, with an injured Saquon. Daniel Jones threw for 24 touchdowns. He led all rookies in TD passes and was 4th all-time in TD passes as a rookie. That system, which by the way is the same as Kevin Stephanski's (Cleveland) played more to his strengths than Garrets's system. In addition, lets be honest, without Saquon on the field, the Giants skills Unit is horrible. I've seen several post listing qb's taken in the last 3-4 years who are showing promise.
Kyler Murray
Josh Allen
Baker
Lamar Jackson
Mahomes
Watson
each one of those QB's have #1 WR talent, in fact, Cleveland, Buffalo, and Arizona have #2 WR's that would be #1's on the Giants.
DJ is going to get a 3rd season to prove himself. He'll need help from the Scheme and an upgrade in talent around him.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
I don't have confirmation. I also don't have confirmation that Judge picked Garrett, so that would also be supposition.
We know that Garrett is right with the Maras. We know they were going to consider him for the head coach job. We know the Giants' offense was pathetic, yet Gettleman said they're antsy about the prospect of losing Garrett.
My supposition is that Garrett was Mara's pick. I suppose I could be wrong. What do you think?
Got it. You worded it above in a previous post like it was fact. Didn't know if I missed a report or something. Your opinion, understood.
Garrett shouldn't be a big deal. Mara mandating Garrett is no good. Truth be told, if Garrett was an order by Mara and Judge didn't stand up to him and defend his right to pick staff as coach then nothing with change and that is just as much on Judge.
I like some of Jones' physical tools better than Tannehill. He can pass with touch and accuracy, he can make some difficult throws, he can heat up and take a game over with his legs.
But, he also demonstrates some of the poorest pocket awareness, ball security, and feel for the game I've seen in recent years from a top 10 draft pick. He's got to improve his read and recognition, feel for the pass rush including climbing the pocket, and I do think his throwing motion needs to be shortened. Suspect his release would time below average, and he will bird-dog receivers, all of which helps defenders find his eyes and close on the pass.
2021 is a crucial year for Jones, and for the Giants progress under DG. The roster probably needs approximately 8 starter caliber upgrades. There's a lot to sort out and develop.
RE: RE: Daniel Jones comp by many scouts coming out of college
Daniel Jones projects as a potential starter, but he's not going to be a universal prospect. Jones needs to work in an offense that is predicated on dispersing the football quickly out of his hands and allows for a lot of rhythm work and downfield routes. Jones' work under pressure is also of concern, so he'll need to work behind an established, effective offensive line if he's going to reach his ceiling, which projects as an average starting quarterback in the NFL. Scheme dependent but starter qualities.
I couldn't agree more with both the comp and report, which is why the Giants need to continue to improve the OL. It's gotten better, but still average at best.
Exactly... In Shurmurs system, with an injured Saquon. Daniel Jones threw for 24 touchdowns. He led all rookies in TD passes and was 4th all-time in TD passes as a rookie. That system, which by the way is the same as Kevin Stephanski's (Cleveland) played more to his strengths than Garrets's system. In addition, lets be honest, without Saquon on the field, the Giants skills Unit is horrible. I've seen several post listing qb's taken in the last 3-4 years who are showing promise.
Kyler Murray
Josh Allen
Baker
Lamar Jackson
Mahomes
Watson
each one of those QB's have #1 WR talent, in fact, Cleveland, Buffalo, and Arizona have #2 WR's that would be #1's on the Giants.
DJ is going to get a 3rd season to prove himself. He'll need help from the Scheme and an upgrade in talent around him.
That’s a great post that got me thinking. Hope we do get Jones some real weapons and he thrives.
you guys act like Jones was terrible over his last 5-6 starts. He wasn't. This isn't Dave BRown or GEno Smith or some guy who didn't show squat. Jones did show things once the guy had more than 20 practices under his belt with this staff.
And please stop with this horse shit that Jones isn't here if he isn't a first round pick. First off, that's not even true. Second, pedigree matters. The guy was a first round pick because he has abilities that 5th rounders don't usually possess. He played in a tougher conference than some guy in a lower division.
Of course his draft status matters. But so does his play.
You guys act like the Giants have been too loyal over the last 10 years. They have shed more blood than any other franchise. They have cut more bodies than I can even count.
It's ok to just be uncertain and let things play out. Not every decision is a referendum on the Giants way.
i'd be killing Jones right now and I suspect the Giants would be saying all the right things but acting differently behind the scenes. If Jones was still turning it over 1-2 times a game and making critical errors at critical junctures things would likely unfold in a different manner come April, or at the least, a vet FA with some starting potential would be coming in to push.
He did improve. In year one with a new staff much in the same way Eli did improve in his year one with the same first year staff. If you want to hold 2019 against Jones and claim that Jones shouldn't have experienced growing pains in 2020, have at it, but you're going to throw the QB out based on the logic? That too is risky.
What do you think? Do you have a thought, or are you only interested in commenting on mine?
I would echo what crick said.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
to rebuild and invest in OL. They did that and it finally seems that its going in the right direction, but now you want immediate results and start bringing up 2018 again. Enough with 2018, it happened, its over with, mistakes were made, jesus christ. Not every mistake is some franchise crippling thing that you can never come back from. We took a hell of an elite talent at 2, he tore his knee this year. We took our QB in 2019, he's been inconsistent his first 2 seasons, one of them without his best player and hardly any weapons at WR for both seasons.
Stay the course, keep building. If Daniel Jones still somehow isn't getting it done in 2021, yeah, we can probably say he isn't the guy. But, because the investment was made, they have conviction about him, he's shown signs of being a true franchise QB, you stick with him. He's 23 years old. He had 2 turnovers in his last 6 games of this season, went 4-2 in the final 6 games, with basically zero weapons on offense. Gee I wonder what will happen if we give him some extra help and his best player back.
you guys act like Jones was terrible over his last 5-6 starts. He wasn't. This isn't Dave BRown or GEno Smith or some guy who didn't show squat. Jones did show things once the guy had more than 20 practices under his belt with this staff.
And please stop with this horse shit that Jones isn't here if he isn't a first round pick. First off, that's not even true. Second, pedigree matters. The guy was a first round pick because he has abilities that 5th rounders don't usually possess. He played in a tougher conference than some guy in a lower division.
Of course his draft status matters. But so does his play.
You guys act like the Giants have been too loyal over the last 10 years. They have shed more blood than any other franchise. They have cut more bodies than I can even count.
It's ok to just be uncertain and let things play out. Not every decision is a referendum on the Giants way.
DJM Respectfully. Double digit losses in 6 of the last 7 seasons. We are not satisfied with that. Some of us get upset and make some ridiculous takes. Ignore those and focus on the why. We have been dismal and want better. That's it really, it is the underlying cause for all the angst on this board there really isn't a legitimate defense. Factually, it has not been good enough. It isn't even mediocre. It has been awful.
Jones needs to show something next year. I don't want to sign the next Kirk Cousins to a contract like Russell Wilson's. Show me next year. No more excuses.
about stats and other QB's touchdowns. "Daniel Jones needs 30 TDs in order to be considered a franchise QB." Nope. Not even close to being true. A good defense trumps a good offense any day of the week in the playoffs, and late in the season. He needs to become a really good quarterback, make awesome decisions, and help the TEAM become a championship contender. He needs to stop fumbling. He doesn't need to do it by himself, he doesn't need to put up 37 and 7. He needs to just be really good. Can he be great? Yeah, i think he can be. Hardly any quarterbacks in the history of the fucking league are "great" by the time they are 23, unless your name is Mahomes.
about stats and other QB's touchdowns. "Daniel Jones needs 30 TDs in order to be considered a franchise QB." Nope. Not even close to being true. A good defense trumps a good offense any day of the week in the playoffs, and late in the season. He needs to become a really good quarterback, make awesome decisions, and help the TEAM become a championship contender. He needs to stop fumbling. He doesn't need to do it by himself, he doesn't need to put up 37 and 7. He needs to just be really good. Can he be great? Yeah, i think he can be. Hardly any quarterbacks in the history of the fucking league are "great" by the time they are 23, unless your name is Mahomes.
about stats and other QB's touchdowns. "Daniel Jones needs 30 TDs in order to be considered a franchise QB." Nope. Not even close to being true. A good defense trumps a good offense any day of the week in the playoffs, and late in the season. He needs to become a really good quarterback, make awesome decisions, and help the TEAM become a championship contender. He needs to stop fumbling. He doesn't need to do it by himself, he doesn't need to put up 37 and 7. He needs to just be really good. Can he be great? Yeah, i think he can be. Hardly any quarterbacks in the history of the fucking league are "great" by the time they are 23, unless your name is Mahomes.
I am not looking for stats. I am looking for a number of games where he is the REASON we won, not the reason we didn't lose. You understand what I mean?
What do you think? Do you have a thought, or are you only interested in commenting on mine?
I would echo what crick said.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
I don't think Judge hired Garrett.
You certainly could be right. Would not be a good look by Mara if it came out he forced Garrett on the staff.
that post is bullshit? It's not bullshit, it's true. How many times on BBI does everyone just get soooo enamored with stats? "Justin Herbert had 30 TD this year! WTF!!!" It happens every single week.
Jon, gonna have to disagree with you there. Over the past few months the majority of this site has been saying the same shit over and over again when it comes to Jones. What they don't realize is that you have to just wait this out. If you want rebuilding, you can't be impatient about it. I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways.
What do you think? Do you have a thought, or are you only interested in commenting on mine?
I would echo what crick said.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
I don't think Judge hired Garrett.
You certainly could be right. Would not be a good look by Mara if it came out he forced Garrett on the staff.
I will say, though, your opinion may end up being correct. Mainly because if I was being honest, and somebody asked me who Judge would hire if he had free reign to interview and sign whomever he wanted as his OC, I would think I'd get pretty far down the list before I would have arrived at Garrett.
Giants went 3-3 in the final 6 games of the season
Odd representation from one of the posts above. In the very same paragraph to suggest Daniel Jones shows signs of being a true franchise QB, but also that if he isn't getting it done in 2021 then he isn't the guy.
That is quite a range of outcomes to put out there. Especially when arguing with other posters that think Daniel Jones isn't the guy, only they think so now.
you're not only obsessed with my posts but you have zero clue how to read and interpret things.
I don't "sing the praises of every member of the team." You're just really annoyed constantly that I like the direction that the team is going in.
You may disagree, but you gotta stop this weird obsession. It's getting extremely uncomfortable.
Ryan, whether you realize it or not, most people here think of you as someone who will polish whatever turd the Giants serve you.
I'll gladly put my football knowledge up against yours any day of the week, and I'm pretty confident I can stand toe to toe with you on how to read and interpret things.
Ask around about how you're perceived.
RE: Giants went 3-3 in the final 6 games of the season
Odd representation from one of the posts above. In the very same paragraph to suggest Daniel Jones shows signs of being a true franchise QB, but also that if he isn't getting it done in 2021 then he isn't the guy.
That is quite a range of outcomes to put out there. Especially when arguing with other posters that think Daniel Jones isn't the guy, only they think so now.
chick, if you read my post, i said Daniel Jones went 4-2 in his last 6 games as the starter. That is a fact. He didn't go 3-3. He went 4-2. He didn't play against the Browns.
Odd representation from one of the posts above. In the very same paragraph to suggest Daniel Jones shows signs of being a true franchise QB, but also that if he isn't getting it done in 2021 then he isn't the guy.
That is quite a range of outcomes to put out there. Especially when arguing with other posters that think Daniel Jones isn't the guy, only they think so now.
chick, if you read my post, i said Daniel Jones went 4-2 in his last 6 games as the starter. That is a fact. He didn't go 3-3. He went 4-2. He didn't play against the Browns.
My bad ryanmkeane. You are correct. I read it as the Giants and not specifically Jones.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
I don't think Judge hired Garrett.
Go Terps - I don't know if this can be said so literally. Would suggest that Judge did indeed hire Garrett but with some suggested hints from the existing front office.
It was fairly publicized that one of the things the owners were not very fond of with Shurmur was that they believed he brought in a poor set of assistant coaches. And I think you can also find some media reports that suggested Mara wanted first-time Head Coach Judge to ensure he added some well-experienced coaches to his staff.
It may be semantics to some degree but maybe Judge was given a list of guys to include as part of his interviewing process, and it came to be that Garrett was not only on the list but also his top choice after the interviews were complete.
that post is bullshit? It's not bullshit, it's true. How many times on BBI does everyone just get soooo enamored with stats? "Justin Herbert had 30 TD this year! WTF!!!" It happens every single week.
Scoring points correlates to winning. The Giants were second worst in scoring points and finished 6-10 as a result. It's an achievement by the defense that they won even that many.
I'm going to say this simply and clearly:
In 2020 Daniel Jones was one of the worst quarterbacks in the NFL. He is only starting in 2021 because of his draft status.
Hopefully he shows himself to be something more than the passenger he was in 2020. But I've never been real big on hope and faith...
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Are you claiming that Barkley is worth an incremental 19 passing TDs? Is that what this has come to? You're that incapable of acknowledging that Jones had a shitty year?
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Are you claiming that Barkley is worth an incremental 19 passing TDs? Is that what this has come to? You're that incapable of acknowledging that Jones had a shitty year?
Is that even close to what I said?? I'm saying Jones had a poor group of WR's and no viable red zone targets.
Two can play at the game of being dense. Are you that fucking incapable of acknowledging that?
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
He can get to 30. I think the kid deserves next year. He was always going to get next year. I think you would agree that there is some reason to be concerned based on his play? He is really tough for me to judge. I think he is tough, accurate, fast, has nice touch and throws a very catchable ball. I think he throws as pretty as Aikman. My concerns are ball security, decision making and pocket awareness. If he can fix it, my ceiling might be higher than some(top 10) I don't think top 5. If he can't fix, I think he is an anchor that could flash enough to make us give that second contract but not good enough to win with frequency. I know I am not an expert. Just fan throwing my opinion in with yours and others on a fan site.
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Would think most of Daniel Jones critics would suggest he could throw for more touchdowns (like he did in 2019) but with that would come the price of increased turnover risk.
The QB position requires a necessary level of production with a reasonably limited amount of turnovers. If Jones cannot deliver one without the other then its fair for some fans to think otherwise with him going forward.
so, some of us will have to reconcile our respect for Judge's football acumen with our contempt of Judge's football acumen.
Personally, I feel that if anyone (here) truly and accurately knows who Jones is or ever will be, then we wouldn't be having any arguments about him.
That's why this is a message board and not an encyclopedia. None of us are trading in absolutes.
As it relates to Jones, it's foolish to not even acknowledge that the whole QB development timeline has been turned on its ear in the past decade or so, and that DJ enters year three behind schedule for what his draft status should dictate.
That doesn't mean that he won't become the QB that DG fell in full-bloom-love with, but he certainly wasn't worthy of that affection in 2020.
The problem is that the "they're moving the goalposts on DG!!!1!!one!" crowd can't ever walk it back when they're wrong, which is odd, considering they're so quick to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of "moving the goalposts."
I'd suggest that it would be a teachable moment for some that DG is not quite the infallible figure they claim (cue the "I'm just bringing data, not taking a side"), but it doesn't often seem like DG's most ardent supporters are particularly interested in learning.
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Are you claiming that Barkley is worth an incremental 19 passing TDs? Is that what this has come to? You're that incapable of acknowledging that Jones had a shitty year?
Is that even close to what I said?? I'm saying Jones had a poor group of WR's and no viable red zone targets.
Two can play at the game of being dense. Are you that fucking incapable of acknowledging that?
I know Jones was hamstrung by that aggregate separation stat. It couldn't possibly be that he's not actually a very good QB.
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Stats aren’t probative of his competence — but they mean something, right? People are skeptical because he’s shown a disturbing penchant for turnovers both in college and the NFL (80 in 60 games) and he’s been the starting QB on the lowest scoring team in the NFL the past 2 years. That doesn’t concern you?
you keep saying that. The Chargers went 7-9. They missed the playoffs too. Jones accounted for 26 TDs his rookie season (in 12 games) and we still went 4-12. Are you finally coming around to the fact that football is a team game? No shit you have to score points, but you have to defend as well. Which is why if we had the same defense last year that we had this year, we probably win 7-8 games instead of 4. This isn't rocket science here.
you keep saying that. The Chargers went 7-9. They missed the playoffs too. Jones accounted for 26 TDs his rookie season (in 12 games) and we still went 4-12. Are you finally coming around to the fact that football is a team game? No shit you have to score points, but you have to defend as well. Which is why if we had the same defense last year that we had this year, we probably win 7-8 games instead of 4. This isn't rocket science here.
Ryan, you wouldn't know rocket science from a bottle rocket.
about stats and other QB's touchdowns. "Daniel Jones needs 30 TDs in order to be considered a franchise QB." Nope. Not even close to being true. A good defense trumps a good offense any day of the week in the playoffs, and late in the season. He needs to become a really good quarterback, make awesome decisions, and help the TEAM become a championship contender. He needs to stop fumbling. He doesn't need to do it by himself, he doesn't need to put up 37 and 7. He needs to just be really good. Can he be great? Yeah, i think he can be. Hardly any quarterbacks in the history of the fucking league are "great" by the time they are 23, unless your name is Mahomes.
Come on Ryan, that is total bullshit. No one was saying he needed 30 TD passes, but he sure as hell needs more than 10! And I agree he doesn't necessarily have to be "great", but the lower you go on the greatness scale, the better the team he will need around him.
scoring points relates to winning *when you have a good defense*
Raiders, Vikings, Cardinals scored a bunch of points this year, they missed the playoffs.
Ryan, Herbert accounted for 36 TDs vs only 11 turnovers as a rookie — with no training camp and not getting starter reps. It’s a bit embarrassing for us to compare their rookie years.
scoring points relates to winning *when you have a good defense*
Raiders, Vikings, Cardinals scored a bunch of points this year, they missed the playoffs.
And they were all better teams than the Giants. And when we needed a win against the Cardinals they came to Jersey in a 1PM game and pushed our shit in. And Jones was non-competitive.
Again, Jones was one of the worst quarterbacks in the league in 2020. That's a fact.
We are now left hoping he's better in 2021. Shitty place to be.
we've been down this road so many times now it's laughable. So many QBs who EVERYONE just KNEW were finished products. Fans are insistent on telling the future and for some reason feel compelled to do so before the body of work has yet to be a finished product. Fans also insist that they know more than the coaches know. You don't.
Save it. No one here, not any of the so called realists, not the optimists, no one here knows wtf Jones is.
We saw Eli make so many NYG and NFL fans look so fucking stupid and here we are again with some of the same fans writing the book on Jones. Yet Joe Judge, who has been coaching in the NFL for 10 years plus seems compelled to want to continue working with Jones. Why? It's not because he wants to be right. it's not because Jones doesn't rock the boat. it's not because Jones is from Duke. It's because Jones has talent and has displayed progression.
That's why I think he's got a shot to develop into a legit QB. I am not accepting shit. I am a fan who knows that players get better. Teams get better. Coaching matters.
You don't get to write a QB off every 20 games because you haven't seen enough star power or stats that fit into your nice little agenda. It doesn't work that way. Many QBs do in fact take time to develop. Most QBs do in fact need help. FACTS. Not horse shit logic.
This is a terrific post👍
RE: It's good to hear Jones doesn't need to be great
The standards some people set for this team are at the earth's core.
I'm expecting more from Jones than "suck less than you have been sucking".
It is absolutely bewildering where so many stand on Jones and what they expect. This is my "1/11th theory" with this group - Jones is just another part of the offense. No more important than the RG.
You would think he was a 6th round pick, not the 6th overall pick.
we've been down this road so many times now it's laughable. So many QBs who EVERYONE just KNEW were finished products. Fans are insistent on telling the future and for some reason feel compelled to do so before the body of work has yet to be a finished product. Fans also insist that they know more than the coaches know. You don't.
Save it. No one here, not any of the so called realists, not the optimists, no one here knows wtf Jones is.
We saw Eli make so many NYG and NFL fans look so fucking stupid and here we are again with some of the same fans writing the book on Jones. Yet Joe Judge, who has been coaching in the NFL for 10 years plus seems compelled to want to continue working with Jones. Why? It's not because he wants to be right. it's not because Jones doesn't rock the boat. it's not because Jones is from Duke. It's because Jones has talent and has displayed progression.
That's why I think he's got a shot to develop into a legit QB. I am not accepting shit. I am a fan who knows that players get better. Teams get better. Coaching matters.
You don't get to write a QB off every 20 games because you haven't seen enough star power or stats that fit into your nice little agenda. It doesn't work that way. Many QBs do in fact take time to develop. Most QBs do in fact need help. FACTS. Not horse shit logic.
This is a terrific post👍
No, it's really not.
RE: RE: RE: This is a pretty good article spelling out a lot what I believe is the
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
I regard to #2,......was Eli?
I think so.
They only made the playoffs 5 times (I think) in his career, the team with Eli at the helm was 117-117 in regular season how is that a perennial contender?
Hot and cold for Jones on this board. Mostly cold.
He definitely deserves a chance with some weapons and better protection. What I like about him though from a fans perspective is that at times he has looked like the best athlete on the field. That is a huge plus. Added to his showing he can also make all the throws makes me hopeful he's going to have his aha moment.
People would have rather he went out and tossed 28 TDS
and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind. I saw a QB that obviously worked on his ball security and decesion making. In the early part of the year, this slow down in processing caused a couple picks on balls thrown late, but that was disappeared after week 4 or 5. His interception numbers are only what they are because we have a game day terrorist on our team by the name of Evan Engram. In the second half of the year he was clearly putting it together, but the TDS were stunted mostly beause of the supporting cast. Some of it was him no doubt, but he's far from a finished product. How people expect production when the cast of pass catchers he is working with stink and nobody fears the running backs perplexes me.
Another thing I don't understand is people acting like he has zero arm talent just because he doesn't have a strong arm. He throws with tremendous amount of touch and accuracy. Anticipation is far more important than arm strenght. Problem is when the skill players stink there's nothing to anticipate and he gets blasted for not pulling the trigger. Do we know if he can show the NFL level type anticipation it takes to be a top 8 QB in the league? Nope, but the thing is with him that he's played with such poor supporting casts that there is very little to go on.
What he has shown is he knows when NOT to pull the trigger, which is something he's needed to work on. Of course he's forced balls in the past, you have to to make things happen with this team or what he was playing with in college. Saquons the x factor that rises all boats, but DJ has played with a healthy Saquon for like 6 games.
I see a lot of the same growth that Allen had in the second year, he was clearly becoming a better QB and has the mental makeup (which is extremely underrated). I get people will point to the stats, but make no bones about it, DJ became a better QB this year and I'm excited for his future. Probably not an elite ceiling like Allen has, but certainly in that 5-10 range. I placed a SB bet on the Bills this year based on the jump as well as them adding some key pieces and being very well coached.
Are the Giants winning the SB next year? Nope (and I believe the would have been a darkhorse candidate if they had squeeked in this year and nailed their offseason moves). But I see a lot of similarities between us and the Bills from last year, including a QB who I think makes the jump. If that win total comes out 8.5 or less (which it most likely will) I'll be hammering the over.
RE: People would have rather he went out and tossed 28 TDS
It’s an absolute that Judge likes Jones? One thing I’ve learned is never believe anything GMs and HCs say to the media about players. We have no clue what they are really thinking, as we shouldn’t.
The level of posting to try and defend Daniel Jones
here goes to no bounds. Some of the above are classic.
And please stop any comparisons of Jones to Justin Herbert and Josh Allen. They only become points of contention as they sound ridiculous and only create immediate backlash.
Best served to just say Judge is backing Daniel Jones for now. Much better position for defenders to take.
RE: RE: People would have rather he went out and tossed 28 TDS
and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
Stunning.
Because it isn't about the stats, it's about building the best quarterback. Any of you that have done any sort of athletic endeavor knows sometimes it gets worse before it gets much better. I probably should have made the interception total even higher though because I completely forgot that he had so many due to the crap around him. Guess I spaced on that because he looked like a sub 5 interception QB out there.
we've been down this road so many times now it's laughable. So many QBs who EVERYONE just KNEW were finished products. Fans are insistent on telling the future and for some reason feel compelled to do so before the body of work has yet to be a finished product. Fans also insist that they know more than the coaches know. You don't.
Save it. No one here, not any of the so called realists, not the optimists, no one here knows wtf Jones is.
We saw Eli make so many NYG and NFL fans look so fucking stupid and here we are again with some of the same fans writing the book on Jones. Yet Joe Judge, who has been coaching in the NFL for 10 years plus seems compelled to want to continue working with Jones. Why? It's not because he wants to be right. it's not because Jones doesn't rock the boat. it's not because Jones is from Duke. It's because Jones has talent and has displayed progression.
That's why I think he's got a shot to develop into a legit QB. I am not accepting shit. I am a fan who knows that players get better. Teams get better. Coaching matters.
You don't get to write a QB off every 20 games because you haven't seen enough star power or stats that fit into your nice little agenda. It doesn't work that way. Many QBs do in fact take time to develop. Most QBs do in fact need help. FACTS. Not horse shit logic.
This is a terrific post👍
The wait and see approach makes for a terrific post? That could have been said in one sentence.
I was never a big fan of Ernie Accorsi but this last
Season has really made me appreciate him. Maybe he told too many Bert Jones stories, but he knew his #1 job as Giants GM was to optimize the QB position. If that meant trading away the 2005 #1 pick, that’s what he would do.
You realize that under Accorsi, the Giants QB situation improved literally every year? Go from a bunch of noodle arms to get Kerry off the scrap heap to make a massive draft day trade to get Eli. The Giants QB line was upward sloped every year he was the GM.
Then we have Mr Gettleman, who’s job #1 is to transition away from Eli, and he has two elite QB talents staring him in the face, and instead takes a guy who if he improves a lot maybe can crack a top 10 spot, if you’re optimistic.
I have the Giants in my blood but I’m not sure how much more of this I can take.
RE: RE: People would have rather he went out and tossed 28 TDS
and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
Stunning.
Because it isn't about the stats, it's about building the best quarterback. Any of you that have done any sort of athletic endeavor knows sometimes it gets worse before it gets much better. I probably should have made the interception total even higher though because I completely forgot that he had so many due to the crap around him. Guess I spaced on that because he looked like a sub 5 interception QB out there.
You could have written this with far fewer words:
"I didn't realize he only had 11 TDs to go along with his 10 INTs, and he had to cut his TDs down by 14 to reduce his INTs by 2."
People here would rather stunt their QBs growth to win a few more
games in the short term. Pretty much is your average moron's philosophy on life.
It was obvious from the jump this year what they were doing with DJ and that was tearing it down to build him up. There's growing pains there and obvious ones because the rest of the supporting cast stinks, but I certainly trust Garrett when it comes to this and Judge is obviously fully on board as well.
RE: People here would rather stunt their QBs growth to win a few more
games in the short term. Pretty much is your average moron's philosophy on life.
It was obvious from the jump this year what they were doing with DJ and that was tearing it down to build him up. There's growing pains there and obvious ones because the rest of the supporting cast stinks, but I certainly trust Garrett when it comes to this and Judge is obviously fully on board as well.
His growth?
DJ took an enormous step backwards this year. Denying that doesn't make you a better fan. It makes you an idiot.
... how do you evaluate an offensive skill player? Did Jameis Winston have a great year last year when he threw for over 5,000 yards? How would you disprove that? Umm, he led the NFL in turnovers (hint, a stat).
Coming off averaging 2 turnovers per start his rookie year, Jones had an horrifically unproductive 2020. Not an around the margins bad year, an horrifically bad year. It’s okay to acknowledge that he didn’t have the best weapons, but in an inflated stats NFL where Tyler Heinicke comes out of grad school to throw for over 300 yards, Jones dramatically underperformed. And in ANY business where your metrics suck, there’s gonna be skepticism.
30 TDs wouldn't even be top ten this year. It's not some incredible feat.
Jones will have a better season next year. I'm fairly confident in that. He was a bottom five starting QB this year. I don't think that's all he is. I was encouraged by his 2019 season. But if you projected his totals over a 16 game season, it's still not probably not a top ten QB due to the turnovers. But it's much closer than what we saw this year.
Jones' biggest supporters discuss a more mobile Jared Goff and 30 TD seasons in hopeful terms. Isn't that a red flag? Do people think we can build a Rams caliber roster around Jones to be a contender?
Next year's big. But a 25/12 TD/INT ratio won't be good enough to warrant further investment. I think a lot of people still think QBs throw at the same TD rates they did 10-15 years ago.
30 TDs wouldn't even be top ten this year. It's not some incredible feat.
Jones will have a better season next year. I'm fairly confident in that. He was a bottom five starting QB this year. I don't think that's all he is. I was encouraged by his 2019 season. But if you projected his totals over a 16 game season, it's still not probably not a top ten QB due to the turnovers. But it's much closer than what we saw this year.
Jones' biggest supporters discuss a more mobile Jared Goff and 30 TD seasons in hopeful terms. Isn't that a red flag? Do people think we can build a Rams caliber roster around Jones to be a contender?
Next year's big. But a 25/12 TD/INT ratio won't be good enough to warrant further investment. I think a lot of people still think QBs throw at the same TD rates they did 10-15 years ago.
This really gets to the heart of it. The majority of DJ's most enthusiastic supporters come across as those who have never watched a game that the Giants weren't playing in.
They only made the playoffs 5 times (I think) in his career, the team with Eli at the helm was 117-117 in regular season how is that a perennial contender?
they were 10-6 one year and 9-7 another and didn't make the playoffs because the division wasn't the shit show it is now.
He was better in the second half than in the first half but unfortunately, that is a pretty low bar. He was 63% for 1533 yards 6 td and 3 picks for an 87.6 qb rating 7.2 yards per attempt in 7 games in the second half. In the first half, he was 62% 1410 5 td 7 picks 73.7 qb rating 5.17 yards per attempt.
But it's a passing league and passers are putting up huge numbers. Taking his marks from the second half, he would still be near the bottom of starting qb in completion percentage, td's, qb rating. I know, I know, stats mean nothing because you NFL scouts here can see it all, but for us mere mortals, Jones was not good either half of the season. He did improve from laughably bad to borderline NFL starter.
Jones' draft profile said his ceiling was a starter, and that is where he is. To think he is going to suddenly blossom into a top 10 starter may be (not definite yet) magical thinking.
RE: RE: RE: RE: People would have rather he went out and tossed 28 TDS
and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
Stunning.
Because it isn't about the stats, it's about building the best quarterback. Any of you that have done any sort of athletic endeavor knows sometimes it gets worse before it gets much better. I probably should have made the interception total even higher though because I completely forgot that he had so many due to the crap around him. Guess I spaced on that because he looked like a sub 5 interception QB out there.
Decisions like these, especially when it comes to QBs, are never easy to make. Although it was clear Jones struggled in his second season, he'll be given another chance.. and he deserves that. You could make the argument a better supporting cast will help improve his performance just like you can make the argument that he's regressed but there's no need to have that argument because NYG will give him another year..
However, they will add a better failsafe. The defense performed too well not too. If Jones struggles again next season while the defense plays well they'll need a better option than Colt McCoy to turn to.. And I've heard Brissett is a likely target.
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
He's going to get his chance next year, so he'd better deliver. No excuses, although I'm sure some people will find a way to blame the supporting cast again without blaming the GM.
Zeke an idiot. I can see why some would disagree with his stance on Jones, but I certainly don't consider him of idiot status.
Fair point, and it was not right for me to make it personal.
But I do genuinely think that ZA didn't realize/remember exactly how mediocre DJ's passing stats were this past season when he threw out the threshold that he thought most Giants fans would or would not approve of (28 TDs/16 INTs).
I don't think he is an idiot, but I do think that particular post was a full notch below the level at which he typically writes.
RE: People would have rather he went out and tossed 28 TDS
and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind. I saw a QB that obviously worked on his ball security and decesion making. In the early part of the year, this slow down in processing caused a couple picks on balls thrown late, but that was disappeared after week 4 or 5. His interception numbers are only what they are because we have a game day terrorist on our team by the name of Evan Engram. In the second half of the year he was clearly putting it together, but the TDS were stunted mostly beause of the supporting cast. Some of it was him no doubt, but he's far from a finished product. How people expect production when the cast of pass catchers he is working with stink and nobody fears the running backs perplexes me.
Another thing I don't understand is people acting like he has zero arm talent just because he doesn't have a strong arm. He throws with tremendous amount of touch and accuracy. Anticipation is far more important than arm strenght. Problem is when the skill players stink there's nothing to anticipate and he gets blasted for not pulling the trigger. Do we know if he can show the NFL level type anticipation it takes to be a top 8 QB in the league? Nope, but the thing is with him that he's played with such poor supporting casts that there is very little to go on.
What he has shown is he knows when NOT to pull the trigger, which is something he's needed to work on. Of course he's forced balls in the past, you have to to make things happen with this team or what he was playing with in college. Saquons the x factor that rises all boats, but DJ has played with a healthy Saquon for like 6 games.
I see a lot of the same growth that Allen had in the second year, he was clearly becoming a better QB and has the mental makeup (which is extremely underrated). I get people will point to the stats, but make no bones about it, DJ became a better QB this year and I'm excited for his future. Probably not an elite ceiling like Allen has, but certainly in that 5-10 range. I placed a SB bet on the Bills this year based on the jump as well as them adding some key pieces and being very well coached.
Are the Giants winning the SB next year? Nope (and I believe the would have been a darkhorse candidate if they had squeeked in this year and nailed their offseason moves). But I see a lot of similarities between us and the Bills from last year, including a QB who I think makes the jump. If that win total comes out 8.5 or less (which it most likely will) I'll be hammering the over.
For a guy who I find pretty insightful and bright about football, there are some very strange conclusions in this post.
The number one responsibility for the QB is to score points. That's it in a nutshell. Figure out a way to get into the endzone first or settle for a FG second. If our QB can't produce at least, and I'm being kind here because this NFL practically does everything possible for you to score TDs, 25 TDs than he should be (1) a permanent back-up or (2) out of the league. It's a cliche, but totally apt, but the QB always touches the ball on offense, so he has to be points producer.
I don't care how ordinary our WRs are (I actually don't think they are that bad) or how ordinary our OL is (which they probably were), Jones needs to produce considerably more than 11 TDs. One word describes this type of production for the 6th pick - embarrassing.
I'm surprised more people don't use that word.
You know what? I'd rather have a player like Jamis Winston. A guy who will get you 30+ TDs and 30 INTs. At least I'm getting into the damn endzone.
These Allen comps really need to stop. Jones is not in his class as a player and athlete.
Right now Gardner Minshew would be better for this team. For a 6th round pick, he's showing a lot better than Jones.
I think it’s quite an assumption that Jones was being broken down to be built back up, when his coach his rookie year has a pretty damn good record getting the best out of young and/or average QBs.
Let’s see if that turns out to be true, next year should prove that.
But let’s not dismiss that Jones actually maybe benefited from Shurmur, and his dramatic drop off in productivity was because of Schuplinski.
you and all these other posters are conflating the issue.
It’s obvious to everyone on planet earth that Jones needs to throw more than 10 touchdown passes. So, let’s shut the fuck up about that.
It’s also factually accurate that you can win Super Bowls with quarterbacks who throw 28-33 on a consistent basis. Some of the very best franchise QBs of the past 20 years have been around that number their whole career. I mean hell - everyone loves to beat their dicks to Lamar Jackson and he can’t even throw the ball down the field! But hey he scores a bunch of cute plays so yay Ravens.
Again, the difference between a 2 yard rushing TD and a passing TD means absolute shit to me. I’d rather have a team that can run it down your throat and pass it all over the field when they need to, instead of a team that throws the ball on every down. The very best teams that win the playoffs can run the ball, and they have a franchise QB who can throw it on a consistent basis and make all the throws, and can play winning football. I’ll point to Eli Manning’s best “statistical season” he ever had, we sucked. We went 6-10. His best years were 07-11 and even though they weren’t amazing stats wise he was an assassin out there and he had full control of everything. He was absolutely a top 10 QB during that time. But yeah - he threw all those TDs to Beckham during the late years but guess what it didn’t matter because we sucked.
Again, unless your name is Mahomes or Rodgers, 40 TD is not the norm. Some of the best best franchise QBs of the last 20 years have been around 30 their whole career.
On a championship contender, I want a QB who has full control of the offense, a guy who is tough and a guy who can make all he throws all over the field when he needs to, depending on the game plan. That’s what Eli Manning was and that’s what I think DJ can be, but he has played 26 games.
I think it’s quite an assumption that Jones was being broken down to be built back up, when his coach his rookie year has a pretty damn good record getting the best out of young and/or average QBs.
Let’s see if that turns out to be true, next year should prove that.
But let’s not dismiss that Jones actually maybe benefited from Shurmur, and his dramatic drop off in productivity was because of Schuplinski.
Good point on Shurmur. Down the stretch this year, Lock started to play much better with Denver. Perhaps Shurmur is starting to pay dividends with that project now.
The very best teams that win the playoffs can run the ball, and they have a franchise QB who can throw it on a consistent basis and make all the throws, and can play winning football.
Terps literally just showed you that the four teams remaining in the playoffs were the top four passing teams in the league.
I think it’s quite an assumption that Jones was being broken down to be built back up, when his coach his rookie year has a pretty damn good record getting the best out of young and/or average QBs.
Let’s see if that turns out to be true, next year should prove that.
But let’s not dismiss that Jones actually maybe benefited from Shurmur, and his dramatic drop off in productivity was because of Schuplinski.
I'm just saying what I thought I saw. I remeber very early in the season remarking this to my Cowboys buddy I watch games with. Around week 5 or 6 I was ready to start looking at QBs for next year IF he didn't start to put it together by end of season. Something clicked in the 2nd half of the Bucs game when he finally threw a ball away. Right now the biggest thing holding him back from tossing 30tds is talent I believe. Either protection or skill guys. This team is built with a running philosophy so I don't expect to get any different lineman anytime soon, but this is a great year to add skill guys. People are also discoutnign the fact that the game plan this year was to shorten to the fuck out of games and that affects the stat line as well. I'd be curious how many drives we had, has to be lowest 5 and quite posssibly the least.
And I'm not saying even with talent he would have thrown 30 tds this
year, but I'm confident he makes the jump as a 3rd year QB in the second year of the offense. I also think we see a different offensive playcall set once we get Saquon back. His presense will help the pass blocking, can't just tee off when you need to account for him. Garrett has had TWO receivers in top 10 ypc practically every year he was in Dallas I've been told, where was that this year? Sidelined due to personnel limitations.
I see where Jones is compared to the 4 QBs playing this weekend and he comes up woefully short. But, why stop there. Compare the Giants OL to the OLs of the final 4. Woefully short? Yes. Compare the Giants WRs & TEs to those of the final 4 teams. Same. You can make the statement that the Giants offense sucked. But, I don’t know that the gap between Jones and the 4 QBs playing this weekend is any greater than the gap between the OLs and the receivers. The Giants offense needs a boatload of help to get to those levels.
RE: And I'm not saying even with talent he would have thrown 30 tds this
year, but I'm confident he makes the jump as a 3rd year QB in the second year of the offense. I also think we see a different offensive playcall set once we get Saquon back. His presense will help the pass blocking, can't just tee off when you need to account for him. Garrett has had TWO receivers in top 10 ypc practically every year he was in Dallas I've been told, where was that this year? Sidelined due to personnel limitations.
Your "confidence" that he will emerge with the "right scheme" isn't enough evidence. Sorry. The QB should make the scheme work. It shouldn't be the scheme that makes the QB work. This kid doesn't have it. We see what he is. Sure, put the perfect team around him, and they'll win. But that's not sustainable.
In the NFL the bet you want to make is to get an elite QB. If you don't have an elite QB you need all the systems to be great: the pass rush, the secondary, the run D, the O-line. If you don't have an elite QB then you need a giant parlay bet to come through. Is that what you want to root for?
Zeke an idiot. I can see why some would disagree with his stance on Jones, but I certainly don't consider him of idiot status.
Fair point, and it was not right for me to make it personal.
But I do genuinely think that ZA didn't realize/remember exactly how mediocre DJ's passing stats were this past season when he threw out the threshold that he thought most Giants fans would or would not approve of (28 TDs/16 INTs).
I don't think he is an idiot, but I do think that particular post was a full notch below the level at which he typically writes.
GD, I take stuff here personally as well sometimes. I read a lot of your posts and Zeke's posts, I find you both to be pretty reasonable which is why I hardly ever engage with either one of you.
RE: RE: And I'm not saying even with talent he would have thrown 30 tds this
year, but I'm confident he makes the jump as a 3rd year QB in the second year of the offense. I also think we see a different offensive playcall set once we get Saquon back. His presense will help the pass blocking, can't just tee off when you need to account for him. Garrett has had TWO receivers in top 10 ypc practically every year he was in Dallas I've been told, where was that this year? Sidelined due to personnel limitations.
Your "confidence" that he will emerge with the "right scheme" isn't enough evidence. Sorry. The QB should make the scheme work. It shouldn't be the scheme that makes the QB work. This kid doesn't have it. We see what he is. Sure, put the perfect team around him, and they'll win. But that's not sustainable.
In the NFL the bet you want to make is to get an elite QB. If you don't have an elite QB you need all the systems to be great: the pass rush, the secondary, the run D, the O-line. If you don't have an elite QB then you need a giant parlay bet to come through. Is that what you want to root for?
Good post. And it's going to take a very deft hand, or an inordinate amount of luck, to build that team with all of the "systems" you cite.
It’s not illogical to assume if many variables improve, the equation will produce better results. If the Giants improve the pass protection, Barkley returns to All Pro form, and the Giants dramatically improve the receivers and tight ends, Jones can be a productive quarterback.
I don’t think anyone would argue against that.
So now let’s assess the odds and to what degree these outcomes are likely and immediate. Let’s say some of those things don’t happen or happen to a lesser degree, then can Jones be a productive quarterback?
If we assume improvements can develop on a spectrum, and the external factors from Jones trend toward likely and not miraculous, I think it’s fair to say Jones himself needs to be much, much better for the Giants to be a contender.
.... the Steelers scout like crazy, move up, grab a high potential QB (maybe Trey Lance), and design a system around him. I wish we would take a cue from the smart teams (like the Steelers and Ravens) and stop trying to find another Eli, get a badass high ceiling athlete and build. I hope the Jints scouting department is up to the task, because it would suck if we pass on yet another franchise dude when we are on the clock at #11.
It amazes me how people analyze players in the a vacuum
There is no way that a QB who is getting 1/2 the time to throw, with crap WR's, with no starting RB, should be judged on an equal playing field with a guy getting time to throw to real NFL receivers. Football is a team game and there are 11 people out there.
If you have a team like TB who is 8-8 and being held back by the QB play, then a guy like Brady coming in turns it all around. They were one player away, everything else was set.
I am going to bet that if next year the Giants OL plays as well as GB, and the WR's are as good as GB, then Daniel Jones suddenly looks like a franchise guy.
This is the challenge for GM's. Players are in all different situations, you can't just look at factors like team success to judge them.
In their past lives, were ryan leaf boosters.... thought the titanic was very sea worthy......they must have invested in Apollo 13 base camp photos. D.J....just Ain’t. He may be the only choice, till the 2022 draft, but that scenario is a big bowl of qb strip sack wrong.
RE: It amazes me how people analyze players in the a vacuum
There is no way that a QB who is getting 1/2 the time to throw, with crap WR's, with no starting RB, should be judged on an equal playing field with a guy getting time to throw to real NFL receivers.
What about assessing receivers with a crap QB throwing to them?
RE: Giants v. four teams playing this weekend (rankings)
Winning in the NFL in 2021 is about throwing the football to create points. Mara/Gettleman/Garrett do not operate this way.
This is a Great Post...great points. This chases me off thoughts to sign LW and DT and then Draft Micah. I might consider ONLY LW, with the other two slots traded for the Offensive side of the ball.
To the DJ questions... The Attack plan and the Arsenal on Offense has been minimal. They need 4-5 additional Scary Players on Offense...more speed at attack positions
This much I am sure of: give Jones time and weapons before you judge
How can you judge this guy based on these basic facts:
-2019 he was the #2 QB thru camp behind Eli
-2019 he takes over and outside of his fumbles he is good for a rookie by any standard
-2020 Covid hits. A new offense is installed. No real training camp to build on, no pre-season games
-2020 his OL is again terrible for the majority of the season; he loses his only playmaker early in Barkley; and, he gets hurt a second year in a row.
If in year 3 he has a full camp in the same offensive system; if Jones gets a true #1 WR via UFA; if we draft playmakers; and, if the OL truly gels as I believe it will, we will know by literally mid-season if we have a true #1 QB that can win you the SB.
I believe Jones is "good enough" if he has "enough" talent around him to WIN with consistently. We lack top end offensive talent and we miss both a solid ER and 2nd CB to get to the next level defensively.
I read the Schwartz article (ok, some reasonable assessments of DJ's promise as a mid- to upper- (not elite) tier QB in the League, but not the thread. In five pages of innumerable posts, were any news or views broken that haven't been played and re-played before in the tens and tens of threads on DJ?
RE: This much I am sure of: give Jones time and weapons before you judge
How can you judge this guy based on these basic facts:
-2019 he was the #2 QB thru camp behind Eli
-2019 he takes over and outside of his fumbles he is good for a rookie by any standard
-2020 Covid hits. A new offense is installed. No real training camp to build on, no pre-season games
-2020 his OL is again terrible for the majority of the season; he loses his only playmaker early in Barkley; and, he gets hurt a second year in a row.
If in year 3 he has a full camp in the same offensive system; if Jones gets a true #1 WR via UFA; if we draft playmakers; and, if the OL truly gels as I believe it will, we will know by literally mid-season if we have a true #1 QB that can win you the SB.
I believe Jones is "good enough" if he has "enough" talent around him to WIN with consistently. We lack top end offensive talent and we miss both a solid ER and 2nd CB to get to the next level defensively.
He’s going to get another shot, and fingers crossed you’re right, but your timeline leaves out his 3 years at Duke, when despite working with pre-eminent QB whisperer Cutliffe, he was plagued by fumbles and didn’t light the world on fire either (like most every other elite QB did in college — see, for example, Trey Lance, who in his one full season as a raw 18 year old, had 42 TDs, ran for 1,100 yards, and get this ... had zero turnovers ... that’s right, his line is 42-0). Through 60 games Jones has 80 turnovers, which is obviously one of the reasons why he wasn’t looked at as an elite prospect.
“At some point, you are what your record says you are” has to come into play here at some point. Stats and a winning record do matter at some point. Hope you guys are right about Jones, because with the Giants inertia and inability to look outside of their classic pocket passer/Eli model, he’ll of course be behind center week 1.
RE: RE: RE: And I'm not saying even with talent he would have thrown 30 tds this
year, but I'm confident he makes the jump as a 3rd year QB in the second year of the offense. I also think we see a different offensive playcall set once we get Saquon back. His presense will help the pass blocking, can't just tee off when you need to account for him. Garrett has had TWO receivers in top 10 ypc practically every year he was in Dallas I've been told, where was that this year? Sidelined due to personnel limitations.
Your "confidence" that he will emerge with the "right scheme" isn't enough evidence. Sorry. The QB should make the scheme work. It shouldn't be the scheme that makes the QB work. This kid doesn't have it. We see what he is. Sure, put the perfect team around him, and they'll win. But that's not sustainable.
In the NFL the bet you want to make is to get an elite QB. If you don't have an elite QB you need all the systems to be great: the pass rush, the secondary, the run D, the O-line. If you don't have an elite QB then you need a giant parlay bet to come through. Is that what you want to root for?
Good post. And it's going to take a very deft hand, or an inordinate amount of luck, to build that team with all of the "systems" you cite.
or it will take an unlikely stroke of luck. I don't think folks are thinking this through. You can't build a consistent winner in this league with even a top 15-20 QB. It is probably hard with the #12 QB. If you don't have a star QB you should always be looking for one. The Giants must evaluate Trey Lance. If they decide he doesn't have the stuff to be elite - ok I can live with that. But just to roll into the season with DJ without considering other options is stupid.
Jones did much of the same shit in 2019 that Herbert did in 2020. Ok Herbert had better numbers but not SO much better that he’s completely exalted around here while Jones is considered total crap. Think about that for a second. How can Herbert be fool proof lock stock perfect while jones oh my god he’s trash. Wtf???
You have a guy in Herbert who threw for about 1000 more and added about 10 more tds while playing 3-4 more games than jones did in year 1. Ok. Cool. He’s a nice looking player. I’ll give you that. He also had better wrs I think that’s fair. And despite the ekeler injury had him about the same amount of time jones has Barkley and he had some talented rb talent behind ekeler. He also had hunter Henry who many here said is so much better than Engram. We know the chargers wrs are a lot better than ours.
Somehow Herbert is can’t miss but the giants are fools for sticking with jones. Ok then.
And if herBert, while playing for a new HC in 2021 sees his numbers dip but maybe wins a game or two more? Will you then kill SD for sticking with him? I’m sure you’d exhibit the same restraint.....
Honest question: would you trade the entire Giants roster for Justin Herbert? Just hypothetically? The whole team for one guy. Mahomes maybe? QB1 is the most important element for wining in the NFL. No other position is even close. No QB and you’re playing for second place.
Another question, if you could bet on any quarterback in the NFL to win a Super Bowl, say within the next five years, would you put your money on Jones? What would the odds look like for that bet against the other NFL QBs? Jones would have to be the longest of long shots. There’s guys in college that you’d put better odds on.
And thanks for cementing my point. Herbert is a building block you’re certain of because of one fun little fantasy football type season that barely even eclipses what jones did in his rookie year. Jones isn’t shit anymore though am I right? I guess some of you really did ignore 2019. I mean I kind of did, but I didn’t think everyone else did.
So if Herbert takes a step down next year I guess we will bury him too.
I’m done don’t waste you’re time as I won’t read anymore. I’ll go visit some other thread. Hopefully someone saves this one like the old Eli one from 2009.
It didn’t barely eclipse jones but it didn’t completely blow his rookie year out of the water by any means. Per game production was better for Herbert but not that much better and he lost plenty of games too.
I just think it’s odd that there’s such a fine line between an amazingly good young qb (your words not mine) in Herbert and the comically dumb giants (not mine) for moving forward with jones.
We shall see. Maybe judge wants a new qb anyway. I doubt it though. And I think jones will be fine next year because I think he turned a corner over his last 5-6 starts this season. With another year under this staff and some more offensive seasoning in place jones will be fine.
If you pro-rate Jones’s number from his rookie season to 15 games, he gets close in yards and TDs, but blows by the negatives as well. It’s pretty fair to say Herbert had a much better rookie season.
Judge has 100% intertwined himself with amines. He loves the guy.
So you’re positive or negative view on Jones is a twofer.
I’m not sure we can know what Judge really thinks of Jones. His comments strike me as mostly coach speak which you’d expect (and want) from any good head coach. It’s not like Judge would ever say publicly if he has doubts about Jones. Logically, why would Judge give a hoot about Jones? He didn’t draft him, he hasn’t won with him and remember too that Judge spent a lot of time around Tawmy GOAT. Now maybe Judge thinks Jones is another Ugg model, but maybe also he sees the delta between DJ8 and a proven champ. I doubt Judge is committed to much beyond winning football games.
RE: Whatever you think of Jones, you think of Judge
Judge has 100% intertwined himself with amines. He loves the guy.
So you’re positive or negative view on Jones is a twofer.
That sentiment goes too far. Judge has made enough positive comments that he has Jones’ back. But don’t imagine that intertwining is anything more than for 2021 if Jones doesn’t step up.
The Giants literally don't have to make a decision on Jones unless a better QB avails himself via either FA or the draft. They won't because the Giants are not picking top 3-5.
Same shit. Different decade. Jones may not have been a rookie in 2020 but he was in a similar spot to many first year QBs. Everyone looks at his numbers but that is such a short sighted and limited viewpoint to take. Was Jones a decent QB over his last 5-6 starts? Forget the numbers. Watch the games. Watch how he handled the offense. Watch how he managed the game. Watch how he threw guys open or how he avoided too many mistakes. He wasn't flashy or amazing but he was clearly a stable influence. Other than the cards game he played solid ball starting against Philly.
I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there. There is no decision to make. Yet.
The Giants literally don't have to make a decision on Jones unless a better QB avails himself via either FA or the draft. They won't because the Giants are not picking top 3-5.
Same shit. Different decade. Jones may not have been a rookie in 2020 but he was in a similar spot to many first year QBs. Everyone looks at his numbers but that is such a short sighted and limited viewpoint to take. Was Jones a decent QB over his last 5-6 starts? Forget the numbers. Watch the games. Watch how he handled the offense. Watch how he managed the game. Watch how he threw guys open or how he avoided too many mistakes. He wasn't flashy or amazing but he was clearly a stable influence. Other than the cards game he played solid ball starting against Philly.
I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there. There is no decision to make. Yet.
I saw a guy who too often held on to the ball too long, locked on to receivers, and too often showed poor pocket awareness.
I agree, there is no decision to make yet, which is what Schwartz is saying, but that time is coming.
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I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there.
...
This is what this fan base has resorted to....accepting mediocrity. If we're okay with a JAG at QB simply b/c he won't embarrass himself then we deserve the results we've been given over the past decade.
IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of irony since there's no irony in that post at all. I would make the exact same statement about Darnold if I were a Jets fan.
You need a stud QB to carry you to the promised land in the NFL and Jones aint it. Even in his first few years when he was struggling Eli had glimpses of something special with his 2 minute drills and clutch drives.
“I think he can be a really good game manager-type quarterback. What bothers me is he turns the ball over more than I remembered in college. Is he a turnover machine?”
- Go Terps
jmo
Doesn’t seem like that evaluation is worthy of being the 6th overall pick in the 2019 draft. I’d be happy at this point if Jones becomes Goff. I don’t see it though.
If the production and turnovers remain the same, a new QB should be brought in for 2022 and the 5th year option should be declined.
The thought process as a rookie is you just let them rip to get accustomed to the speed of the game and in year 2 you work on making them a consistently good QB. Of course, we didn't have any fucking help around him so the TD numbers were low and the interception numbers higher than they should have been.
I feel like we see a combination of what we saw in year 1 and 2 by the end of next year. We still need to get this guy help, and it's so blindingly obvious they alluded to it in the post season presser.
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
It appears that there are 3 realities at play here:
1. Daniel Jones has shown an ability to be a winning QB.
2. Daniel Jones has shown an ability to be a horrible QB.
3. For various reasons, this will not be the year to make a change at this position.
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of that post above by the guy who cried about not drafting Darnold for almost two years is fucking hilarious!
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of irony since there's no irony in that post at all. I would make the exact same statement about Darnold if I were a Jets fan.
This is correct.
Since when does what BBI thinks become relevant to what the team does?
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there is no decision. He's a developmental QB who the Giants hope can grow as the team around him grows.
The Giants literally don't have to make a decision on Jones unless a better QB avails himself via either FA or the draft. They won't because the Giants are not picking top 3-5.
Same shit. Different decade. Jones may not have been a rookie in 2020 but he was in a similar spot to many first year QBs. Everyone looks at his numbers but that is such a short sighted and limited viewpoint to take. Was Jones a decent QB over his last 5-6 starts? Forget the numbers. Watch the games. Watch how he handled the offense. Watch how he managed the game. Watch how he threw guys open or how he avoided too many mistakes. He wasn't flashy or amazing but he was clearly a stable influence. Other than the cards game he played solid ball starting against Philly.
I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there. There is no decision to make. Yet.
I saw a guy who too often held on to the ball too long, locked on to receivers, and too often showed poor pocket awareness.
I agree, there is no decision to make yet, which is what Schwartz is saying, but that time is coming.
all season long you saw those things? I didn't. I saw big problems early on but starting with the win against Philly I saw a more decisive QB.
Agree as well. The article is a decent piece and the comments made by NFL evaluators within it sound pretty damn fair on Jones.
Judge says give him more time. So should we.
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I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there.
...
This is what this fan base has resorted to....accepting mediocrity. If we're okay with a JAG at QB simply b/c he won't embarrass himself then we deserve the results we've been given over the past decade.
IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
Oh cry me a river. Accepting mediocre play? who the fuck said that. No one did. Go complain about Sam DArnold.
Since when does what BBI thinks become relevant to what the team does?
HAHAHHAHAAHA - I heard Gettleman reads BBI daily in order to make key decisions on how to run the club!
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
He's Goff with much better speed and doesn't fold under pressure. That's actually a pretty good QB and one worth a second contract. Goff's biggest issue is his pressure/non pressure splits are awful. No QB is good under pressure, but it's important you aren't sinking the team because generally that opens other things up.
Cleveland went from 47 sacks last year to 17 this year. All of a sudden Mayfield is a good QB.
All QB's need help.
The challenge has been that the Giants have failed to put a competitive team on the field in years. The question is only is Jones part of that problem, or a result of that problem. This article, like many here have posted, seems to make year 3 make or break. But is it?
We will get a nice read on Jones if the WR, RB and offensive line is much improved, and Jones stays healthy all year. But how likely is it that all of those things happen in 2021?
I don't think 2021 is going to be this magic answer on Daniel Jones many are expecting it to be, either way.
You need a stud QB to carry you to the promised land in the NFL and Jones aint it. Even in his first few years when he was struggling Eli had glimpses of something special with his 2 minute drills and clutch drives.
Well, because by your assessment and using just two years as your data point then Eli was destined to be mid tier at best after two years. After 3 years (04, 05, 06) people were outright saying Eli isn't a leader (Tiki) and can't win games on his own.
Anybody who uses 2020 as a barometer is nuts. Jones needs time and honestly better skill players. That isn't like saying oh he had Shockey, Tiki and Toomer and just needs more weapons- we are saying the SHIT show at WR this year, missing Barkley and having a team killer in EE sure the EFF didn't do Jones any favors.
Give him two years in the same system for christ sakes.
Save it. No one here, not any of the so called realists, not the optimists, no one here knows wtf Jones is.
We saw Eli make so many NYG and NFL fans look so fucking stupid and here we are again with some of the same fans writing the book on Jones. Yet Joe Judge, who has been coaching in the NFL for 10 years plus seems compelled to want to continue working with Jones. Why? It's not because he wants to be right. it's not because Jones doesn't rock the boat. it's not because Jones is from Duke. It's because Jones has talent and has displayed progression.
That's why I think he's got a shot to develop into a legit QB. I am not accepting shit. I am a fan who knows that players get better. Teams get better. Coaching matters.
You don't get to write a QB off every 20 games because you haven't seen enough star power or stats that fit into your nice little agenda. It doesn't work that way. Many QBs do in fact take time to develop. Most QBs do in fact need help. FACTS. Not horse shit logic.
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In comment 15130574 djm said:
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I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there.
...
This is what this fan base has resorted to....accepting mediocrity. If we're okay with a JAG at QB simply b/c he won't embarrass himself then we deserve the results we've been given over the past decade.
IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
Oh cry me a river. Accepting mediocre play? who the fuck said that. No one did. Go complain about Sam DArnold.
You did. Literally your argument for sticking with him was that you "feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there." That's the most pathetic standard of evaluation I've heard on BBI...and I was here for the last 5 years of Eli's career when many of you were saying the same shit about him sucking b/c of everything and everyone else.
It appears that there are 3 realities at play here:
1. Daniel Jones has shown an ability to be a winning QB.
2. Daniel Jones has shown an ability to be a horrible QB.
3. For various reasons, this will not be the year to make a change at this position.
short and sweet and exactly right.
But don't forget, some here KNOW Jones won't be a good QB. Judge doesn't know, but Josh does.
Save it.
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In comment 15130586 Josh in the City said:
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In comment 15130574 djm said:
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I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there.
...
This is what this fan base has resorted to....accepting mediocrity. If we're okay with a JAG at QB simply b/c he won't embarrass himself then we deserve the results we've been given over the past decade.
IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
Oh cry me a river. Accepting mediocre play? who the fuck said that. No one did. Go complain about Sam DArnold.
You did. Literally your argument for sticking with him was that you "feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there." That's the most pathetic standard of evaluation I've heard on BBI...and I was here for the last 5 years of Eli's career when many of you were saying the same shit about him sucking b/c of everything and everyone else.
Josh- you clearly forget many (including Tiki) were blaming Eli for them not winning more (not having the leadership to do it) early on. Come on, be fair in your overall assessments.
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is making a valid point in some way.
It appears that there are 3 realities at play here:
1. Daniel Jones has shown an ability to be a winning QB.
2. Daniel Jones has shown an ability to be a horrible QB.
3. For various reasons, this will not be the year to make a change at this position.
short and sweet and exactly right.
But don't forget, some here KNOW Jones won't be a good QB. Judge doesn't know, but Josh does.
Save it.
Ummm....when and where did I say I know Jones won't be a good QB? All I said is that he has to take the next step this year and prove that he can be our true franchise QB otherwise it's time to move on. But again, keep making up nonsense!
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In comment 15130645 djm said:
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In comment 15130586 Josh in the City said:
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In comment 15130574 djm said:
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I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there.
...
This is what this fan base has resorted to....accepting mediocrity. If we're okay with a JAG at QB simply b/c he won't embarrass himself then we deserve the results we've been given over the past decade.
IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
Oh cry me a river. Accepting mediocre play? who the fuck said that. No one did. Go complain about Sam DArnold.
You did. Literally your argument for sticking with him was that you "feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there." That's the most pathetic standard of evaluation I've heard on BBI...and I was here for the last 5 years of Eli's career when many of you were saying the same shit about him sucking b/c of everything and everyone else.
Josh- you clearly forget many (including Tiki) were blaming Eli for them not winning more (not having the leadership to do it) early on. Come on, be fair in your overall assessments.
Not at all...that's part of the reason I'm not ready to move on yet. But there was clearly not enough progress in year 2 and we absolutely have to see it in year 3. If he makes that leap then that's amazing and I'm all in. If he stays in neutral I'm ready to move on.
Go win 10 games.
What specifically are you talking about? What did I say was a fact that was my opinion?
You have to give this QB another year with this same staff. IT's ridiculous to think that Jones won't improve in year 2 simply by being more comfortable and coached. The entire team should improve unless Judge is Pat Shumur redux and the first year was as good as it gets here. I doubt that, but I can't say it is impossible. I just don't see Judge as the HC that regresses in year 2 and beyond.
Should be read and understood by many on BBI, because according to many here, finding a QB that can lift the play of those around them and carry the team is easy.
You have to give this QB another year with this same staff. IT's ridiculous to think that Jones won't improve in year 2 simply by being more comfortable and coached. The entire team should improve unless Judge is Pat Shumur redux and the first year was as good as it gets here. I doubt that, but I can't say it is impossible. I just don't see Judge as the HC that regresses in year 2 and beyond.
Enough with potential and hopes and dreams and unicorns and rainbows. PRODUCE and WIN GAMES or it's time to move on. That is literally only thing that matters. Not potential...WINS. And there is no position on the field that has a more direct impact on wins than the QB. I couldn't give a shit if he had more potential than Mahomes. If the potential doesn't result in this team actually winning again then it doesn't matter!
"hoping that someone will become something they are not"
It's called developing a quarterback. Just because Jones isn't a star right now doesn't mean he won't be in the future. It doesn't mean he will be. But your ability to act like he can't get better is infuriating, you're the same as Terps when it comes to this shit
You guys have seriously forgotten how it takes time to develop as a NFL quarterback. You're embarrassing yourselves.
I don't necessarily think this is true.
I can see a scenario in which the rest of team does develop and get better but the QB does not. Ask the Bears how that's working out for them.
If that happens - it gets real hard to find a QB that can take you to the promised land b/c other teams don't just let them walk out the door.
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I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there.
...
This is what this fan base has resorted to....accepting mediocrity. If we're okay with a JAG at QB simply b/c he won't embarrass himself then we deserve the results we've been given over the past decade.
IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
Cool! So why don't you stop showing up and bothering people with your less than mediocre posts?1
"hoping that someone will become something they are not"
It's called developing a quarterback. Just because Jones isn't a star right now doesn't mean he won't be in the future. It doesn't mean he will be. But your ability to act like he can't get better is infuriating, you're the same as Terps when it comes to this shit
But as I've stated numerous times above, I am 100% ok with developing a QB as long as they show the necessary improvement year to year. My point is, and this isn't an opinion, that we shouldn't be ok continuing to roll with a JAG that DOESN'T take that next step. That's what bogs down franchises and ends up causing them to stay in no man's land for years without ever getting over the hump.
And same goes for that 2nd statement. You can't keep hoping a player will make that leap just b/c you like them or want them to. They need to prove it on the field or you have to make the tough decision to find someone else who can. It's a results business.
I get as fans many of us choose to live in this alternate reality where we're always hoping that the next game or next season will be different even if we remain with the status quo. But I'm sorry, I just don't look at things like that. Show me results or I'm ready to pull the plug. And to be honest, he didn't show NEARLY enough in year two to make me think he will do it in year three. But as a fan, I'm still hopeful and I'm willing to give him that all important third year to see if he can do it. That doesn't mean I'm playing off my opinion as fact. That's just the harsh reality of any business and, in particular, the NFL.
10000% on the money.
You guys have seriously forgotten how it takes time to develop as a NFL quarterback. You're embarrassing yourselves.
What do you do if you were a decision maker with the team and Jones has a poor year and the team goes 6-10 or 5-11? Does he get a 4th year? Or in a period where it has never been easier for young QB’s to succeed than it is now, does a poor year cement the notion that the dye is cast on what DJ is?
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there you go again. Jones is 23 years old. He needs a tad more time to develop.
You guys have seriously forgotten how it takes time to develop as a NFL quarterback. You're embarrassing yourselves.
What do you do if you were a decision maker with the team and Jones has a poor year and the team goes 6-10 or 5-11? Does he get a 4th year? Or in a period where it has never been easier for young QB’s to succeed than it is now, does a poor year cement the notion that the dye is cast on what DJ is?
To me, 2021 is the shit or get off the pot year for Jones.
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In comment 15130588 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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of that post above by the guy who cried about not drafting Darnold for almost two years is fucking hilarious!
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of irony since there's no irony in that post at all. I would make the exact same statement about Darnold if I were a Jets fan.
This is correct.
It's actually not.
I think it's Josh who doesn't understand irony. His Jones statement is compared to what he *had* whined about Darnold and not on what he *may* or *would* have hypothetically said.
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In comment 15130592 Josh in the City said:
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In comment 15130588 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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of that post above by the guy who cried about not drafting Darnold for almost two years is fucking hilarious!
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of irony since there's no irony in that post at all. I would make the exact same statement about Darnold if I were a Jets fan.
This is correct.
It's actually not.
I think it's Josh who doesn't understand irony. His Jones statement is compared to what he *had* whined about Darnold and not on what he *may* or *would* have hypothetically said.
Huh? It would be ironic if I HAD said that the Jets should continue to stick with Darnold and give him a big contract even though his play hasn't resulted in wins. But since I never stated that, where's the irony? Or do you also not know what irony means?
i know I can't see it.
I wonder what Jones could do with Josh Allen's athleticism, instincts, and arm.
Too soon to say. Need to see what he does with "better" weapons this year. My single biggest concern with Jones is his pocket presence. There may have been slight improvement from his rookie yr but he has such a long way to go in terms of feeling the rush that I'm just don't know. Even the game plan this year had him getting the ball our super quickly b/c it seems the coaching staff recognized that weakness as well. We'll see...
I just think sometimes there will be some uncertainty injected into a QB's development plan. That's how shit goes more often than not. Some now want to kill Jones and the Giants for staying the course despite some concerns with the young QB? I think that's pretty ridiculous. It's one thing to point out the questions with Jones. ONe thing to be a little concerned or hesitant but if you're gonna kill every team for sort of powering through a young QB's developmental period you're basically going to kill just about every team. Mahomes and Rodgers are rare. Eli and Josh Allen aren't even that common. Tannehill isn't that common either. But the shades of grey or variances with all these QBs is common.
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with better weapons and OL play to support him. But, is he the QB to chase championships is the key point. With our minds over our hearts, do we envision him hoisting a Lombardi ...
Too soon to say. Need to see what he does with "better" weapons this year. My single biggest concern with Jones is his pocket presence. There may have been slight improvement from his rookie yr but he has such a long way to go in terms of feeling the rush that I'm just don't know. Even the game plan this year had him getting the ball our super quickly b/c it seems the coaching staff recognized that weakness as well. We'll see...
I don't think it is smart to "wait" around for a guy. If you don't have a guy playing at an elite level, you don't have a guy. Period. The Giants would be smart to proceed as though they don't have a franchise QB. If he surprises us - great. If you are "waiting" for a guy to show himself, you are wasting your most precious resource - time.
Love this question - wonder what a BBI poll would show...
50/50?
Two facts:
1. Nobody knows for sure what Jones will and won't be.
2. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion on what Jones has been and they think he will be. And they are only that - opinions. Nobody's opinion is stupid because it is different from your own.
I just think sometimes there will be some uncertainty injected into a QB's development plan. That's how shit goes more often than not. Some now want to kill Jones and the Giants for staying the course despite some concerns with the young QB? I think that's pretty ridiculous. It's one thing to point out the questions with Jones. ONe thing to be a little concerned or hesitant but if you're gonna kill every team for sort of powering through a young QB's developmental period you're basically going to kill just about every team. Mahomes and Rodgers are rare. Eli and Josh Allen aren't even that common. Tannehill isn't that common either. But the shades of grey or variances with all these QBs is common.
But no, it's really not that rare in today's NFL for highly drafted QB's to make that leap by year three. Off the top of my head, these are the QB's who were drafted in the last 3 yrs that have already showed signs of being a franchise QB:
Josh Allen
Lamar Jackson
Kyler Murray
Baker Mayfield
Justin Herbert
Deshaun Watson
And quite frankly, the other QB's not on this list that have been in the league for 3 yrs I'd be ready to move on from! Which is why next yr is so important for Jones.
Ok, 5.
#Patience
Two facts:
1. Nobody knows for sure what Jones will and won't be.
2. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion on what Jones has been and they think he will be. And they are only that - opinions. Nobody's opinion is stupid because it is different from your own.
Love this - it's also why it's fun (for me) to continually debate it...b/c there is no definitive answer right now...It's also why I get people that chose not to engage over and over again.
I just think sometimes there will be some uncertainty injected into a QB's development plan. That's how shit goes more often than not. Some now want to kill Jones and the Giants for staying the course despite some concerns with the young QB? I think that's pretty ridiculous. It's one thing to point out the questions with Jones. ONe thing to be a little concerned or hesitant but if you're gonna kill every team for sort of powering through a young QB's developmental period you're basically going to kill just about every team. Mahomes and Rodgers are rare. Eli and Josh Allen aren't even that common. Tannehill isn't that common either. But the shades of grey or variances with all these QBs is common.
We've already passed on one excellent QB prospect (Herbert) to continue seeing what we have in Jones. Will we miss on any this year? The year after?
I'm not on board with "giving' him one more year. He hasn't earned it.
I'll say it again: if Jones were a journeyman vet or a UDFA he would have been cut after how he played in 2020. The only reason he enters 2021 as the starter is the draft investment made in him. Shitty way to do business.
Davante Adams was targeted 159 times and didn't drop a single ball. Not one. Engram was targeted 109 times and dropped 8, with 6 of them resulting in INTs!
DJ played behind a pretty horrendous inexperienced OL for the first half of the season and played with f*cking Engram as his #1 target for the entire year.
Let's see him w/ Barkley, a better OL and some better receivers before we give up on him.
Davante Adams was targeted 159 times and didn't drop a single ball. Not one. Engram was targeted 109 times and dropped 8, with 6 of them resulting in INTs!
DJ played behind a pretty horrendous inexperienced OL for the first half of the season and played with f*cking Engram as his #1 target for the entire year.
Let's see him w/ Barkley, a better OL and some better receivers before we give up on him.
and then you waste another year..
Finding a backup RB is really an underrated part of this offseason. No way you can go into the season with Saquon and nothing else. Can't just give him a ton of carries defacto until his confidence and conditioning get up to snuff. We also see the results of having a journeyman backup getting significant time. Hitting on a midround pick here would be huge. Plus if Saquon is in the Giants long term plans, the season after that 2k carry mark is generally where ability declines.
Davante Adams was targeted 159 times and didn't drop a single ball. Not one. Engram was targeted 109 times and dropped 8, with 6 of them resulting in INTs!
DJ played behind a pretty horrendous inexperienced OL for the first half of the season and played with f*cking Engram as his #1 target for the entire year.
Let's see him w/ Barkley, a better OL and some better receivers before we give up on him.
Aaron Rodgers would throw the ball to someone else.
I'm not sure why DJ never figured that out?
Ok, 5.
#Patience
Why is Josh Allen at all instructional for Daniel Jones, yet year 3 for Sam Darnold isn't?
#SelectiveBias
He stands tall in the pocket and shows a lot of courage back there. And he throws a nice ball. He can gouge a defense with his legs, and if the Giants secure a true #1 WR next season via the Draft or Free Agency, I expect Daniel Jones' stats to improve over 2020.
Now the bad news. Daniel Jones has neither the pocket presence, flexibility, elusiveness, array of arm angle throws, vision nor creativeness to be anything but an average-to-mediocre NFL QB.
Get used to it.
Got me there! (:-) I just thought it sounded nice.
Well the GM said it, so it must be true right?
He retired a year after that.
What are quotes worth?
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I am shocked (not really) that some here don't see the potential in Jones. HE's put up numbers--granted I don't really care about 2019, but he did put up numbers. He's run for 80 yard sprints. He's run for TDs. His rushing numbers are near elite for QBs. He throws a pretty ball with near elite accuracy. He's even won division games this season, going 4-2. He's not the quick twitch athlete that we see in guys like Jackson but he can run the ball and he can throw the ball. He's got talent. Talent goes a long way in the NFL. Coaching and talent are nearly impossible to stop. I know we want instant results but there are factors that come into play. I didn't use the covid lack or prep time excuses for Judge and I won't use them for Jones but a first year HC implementing a new system with a 2nd year QB? Yeah, that's a factor.
You have to give this QB another year with this same staff. IT's ridiculous to think that Jones won't improve in year 2 simply by being more comfortable and coached. The entire team should improve unless Judge is Pat Shumur redux and the first year was as good as it gets here. I doubt that, but I can't say it is impossible. I just don't see Judge as the HC that regresses in year 2 and beyond.
Enough with potential and hopes and dreams and unicorns and rainbows. PRODUCE and WIN GAMES or it's time to move on. That is literally only thing that matters. Not potential...WINS. And there is no position on the field that has a more direct impact on wins than the QB. I couldn't give a shit if he had more potential than Mahomes. If the potential doesn't result in this team actually winning again then it doesn't matter!
LOL.
Josh in the City : 4/25/2019 10:57 pm : link
Sorry there is no sugar coating it. Will go down as the worst pick and biggest reach in franchise history. Taking a day 3 guy at 6 overall. Doesn't get any worse. Fire gettleman!
Josh in the City : 4/19/2019 11:39 am : link
Just watch the damn tape! I 100% do not believe any scout who has watched every one of his games would advocate drafting him in the first two days of the draft. That's not me being extra negative he really wasn't impressive at all. He was also one of the worst players on the field at the Senior Bowl. I believe the love for him on this board comes down to the fact that rumors suggest the Giants may take him and people are hoping for the best. Nothing about his tape or performance suggests he will ever be anything more than a backup QB in the NFL at best.
1) Jones has the ability to be a top 10-12 QB but not likely headed for superstardom. And that is ok.
2) Jones is likely trying a bit too hard and pressing. At some point he needs to let the game breath a bit and allow his ability and instinct to kick in.
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of that post above by the guy who cried about not drafting Darnold for almost two years is fucking hilarious!
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of irony since there's no irony in that post at all. I would make the exact same statement about Darnold if I were a Jets fan.
You would??
Josh in the City : 2/27/2020 11:03 am : link
watch the Jets this year? Their talent was as bad as ours and they finished 7-9. Darnold had mono this year and still finished the season 7-6 as a starter on that horrendous team. The strides he made were fantastic
Fortunately, if Judge can influence more decisions in player selection maybe an offense can be built around Jones. But that's going to require a lot of investment and some good luck hitting draft picks and free agent signings.
Because Jones has revealed who he is - a game manager. And now it's just a matter of figuring out what level of game manager he is.
We really overshot drafting Jones at #6. Talent wise, he's in the bottom third of the league. Production wise, he's bottom third of the league. We're really in "fingers crossed" territory with this guy right now...
There are at least four QBs in this draft more gifted than Jones. Significantly. To not consider an opportunity to reboot by drafting one of them - if available - is very hard to reconcile...
So, again, let's hope Judge can work this to a good conclusion.
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In comment 15130592 Josh in the City said:
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In comment 15130588 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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of that post above by the guy who cried about not drafting Darnold for almost two years is fucking hilarious!
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of irony since there's no irony in that post at all. I would make the exact same statement about Darnold if I were a Jets fan.
This is correct.
It's actually not.
I think it's Josh who doesn't understand irony. His Jones statement is compared to what he *had* whined about Darnold and not on what he *may* or *would* have hypothetically said.
Nonsensical post.
Fortunately, if Judge can influence more decisions in player selection maybe an offense can be built around Jones. But that's going to require a lot of investment and some good luck hitting draft picks and free agent signings.
Because Jones has revealed who he is - a game manager. And now it's just a matter of figuring out what level of game manager he is.
We really overshot drafting Jones at #6. Talent wise, he's in the bottom third of the league. Production wise, he's bottom third of the league. We're really in "fingers crossed" territory with this guy right now...
There are at least four QBs in this draft more gifted than Jones. Significantly. To not consider an opportunity to reboot by drafting one of them - if available - is very hard to reconcile...
So, again, let's hope Judge can work this to a good conclusion.
I think this is fair.
It's not like this guy has zero NFL tape.
I agree with the point many are making - no one can say definitively what kind of QB DJ will be for the duration of his career...but we can project somewhat based on what we've seen for the better part of two years.
Fortunately, if Judge can influence more decisions in player selection maybe an offense can be built around Jones. But that's going to require a lot of investment and some good luck hitting draft picks and free agent signings.
Because Jones has revealed who he is - a game manager. And now it's just a matter of figuring out what level of game manager he is.
We really overshot drafting Jones at #6. Talent wise, he's in the bottom third of the league. Production wise, he's bottom third of the league. We're really in "fingers crossed" territory with this guy right now...
There are at least four QBs in this draft more gifted than Jones. Significantly. To not consider an opportunity to reboot by drafting one of them - if available - is very hard to reconcile...
So, again, let's hope Judge can work this to a good conclusion.
Agree with the Judge-related comments. Not there yet on everybody else being so much more gifted.
May very well be Giants are wasting another by keeping Jones in the saddle, but I don't think its unreasonable to give him that opportunity, especially if Judge backs him right now.
Besides, based on the overall weak roster, are we really wasting anything anyway in 2021?
The Giants literally don't have to make a decision on Jones unless a better QB avails himself via either FA or the draft. They won't because the Giants are not picking top 3-5.
Same shit. Different decade. Jones may not have been a rookie in 2020 but he was in a similar spot to many first year QBs. Everyone looks at his numbers but that is such a short sighted and limited viewpoint to take. Was Jones a decent QB over his last 5-6 starts? Forget the numbers. Watch the games. Watch how he handled the offense. Watch how he managed the game. Watch how he threw guys open or how he avoided too many mistakes. He wasn't flashy or amazing but he was clearly a stable influence. Other than the cards game he played solid ball starting against Philly.
I don't LOVE Jones. I wouldn't bet my life on him being good or great or bad. I don't know enough yet. But I saw enough in him over the last 5-6 starts to at least feel like he's a PRO QB that won't embarrass himself out there. There is no decision to make. Yet.
Daniel Jones, and the Giants' situation as it relates to him now that the roster around him is beginning to bear fruit, may very well be (and ironically so) the exact scenario that DG himself described as "QB hell" just a few years ago. Not good enough to reach the next level; not bad enough to sink to the level below where a top-notch QB prospect is available.
Yawn indeed.
Since when does what BBI thinks become relevant to what the team does?
Maybe not BBI per se, but the fanbase's collective temper tantrum in 2017 - and John Mara's reaction to that tantrum - set this team back by two years.
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In comment 15130693 djm said:
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I am shocked (not really) that some here don't see the potential in Jones. HE's put up numbers--granted I don't really care about 2019, but he did put up numbers. He's run for 80 yard sprints. He's run for TDs. His rushing numbers are near elite for QBs. He throws a pretty ball with near elite accuracy. He's even won division games this season, going 4-2. He's not the quick twitch athlete that we see in guys like Jackson but he can run the ball and he can throw the ball. He's got talent. Talent goes a long way in the NFL. Coaching and talent are nearly impossible to stop. I know we want instant results but there are factors that come into play. I didn't use the covid lack or prep time excuses for Judge and I won't use them for Jones but a first year HC implementing a new system with a 2nd year QB? Yeah, that's a factor.
You have to give this QB another year with this same staff. IT's ridiculous to think that Jones won't improve in year 2 simply by being more comfortable and coached. The entire team should improve unless Judge is Pat Shumur redux and the first year was as good as it gets here. I doubt that, but I can't say it is impossible. I just don't see Judge as the HC that regresses in year 2 and beyond.
Enough with potential and hopes and dreams and unicorns and rainbows. PRODUCE and WIN GAMES or it's time to move on. That is literally only thing that matters. Not potential...WINS. And there is no position on the field that has a more direct impact on wins than the QB. I couldn't give a shit if he had more potential than Mahomes. If the potential doesn't result in this team actually winning again then it doesn't matter!
LOL.
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He's fucking horrible
Josh in the City : 4/25/2019 10:57 pm : link
Sorry there is no sugar coating it. Will go down as the worst pick and biggest reach in franchise history. Taking a day 3 guy at 6 overall. Doesn't get any worse. Fire gettleman!
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DANIEL JONES SUCKS
Josh in the City : 4/19/2019 11:39 am : link
Just watch the damn tape! I 100% do not believe any scout who has watched every one of his games would advocate drafting him in the first two days of the draft. That's not me being extra negative he really wasn't impressive at all. He was also one of the worst players on the field at the Senior Bowl. I believe the love for him on this board comes down to the fact that rumors suggest the Giants may take him and people are hoping for the best. Nothing about his tape or performance suggests he will ever be anything more than a backup QB in the NFL at best.
LOL so what are you saying!? That after two seasons it looks like I was right along on draft night!? Thanks I guess?
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In comment 15130588 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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of that post above by the guy who cried about not drafting Darnold for almost two years is fucking hilarious!
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of irony since there's no irony in that post at all. I would make the exact same statement about Darnold if I were a Jets fan.
You would??
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Did any of you actually
Josh in the City : 2/27/2020 11:03 am : link
watch the Jets this year? Their talent was as bad as ours and they finished 7-9. Darnold had mono this year and still finished the season 7-6 as a starter on that horrendous team. The strides he made were fantastic
Once again, this post was made after last season when Darnold DID take strides in year 2 and started showing substantial results. However, with more data after year three in which the results regressed, I would 100% not give Darnold a big contract or even pick up his 5th yr option. Again, you're not doing anything except proving my points for me so thanks.
"hoping that someone will become something they are not"
It's called developing a quarterback. Just because Jones isn't a star right now doesn't mean he won't be in the future. It doesn't mean he will be. But your ability to act like he can't get better is infuriating, you're the same as Terps when it comes to this shit
Look, we get it - you don't watch any NFL games other than the Giants. But NFL QBs are winning the MVP award in their second season. They're establishing themselves as franchise cornerstones by their second season. They are proving they belong by their second season.
This antiquated QB development timeline that Giants fans cling to as a justification for Jones's slow growth at the most pivotal position in sports is just not aligned with how the NFL operates anymore.
To his credit (and I am not one to give DG credit), we are building a roster that actually has a chance to compete but doing so thus far in spite of our QB rather than because of him. A year from now, we'll probably be an 8-8 team with another season of question marks from Jones, and we'll be even farther away from the sort of prospect that can be a franchise QB. And we'll settle in for a half-decade of bouncing between 7-9 and 9-7 with draft picks that land between the 14th and 20th selection. Eventually, we'll have to either bottom out again or empty the cupboard for a QB prospect.
I'll go on record right now and say that we'll just trot on the treadmill until Arch Manning is that prospect that we finally go all-in for, and then we'll pull the trigger like we did for his uncle - Jones or whatever other fungible journeyman placeholder is available will man the position until then. This franchise is predictable enough to make that claim this far in advance.
if he's the giants starting QB for the Giants he will likely get more than that. And he won't be worth it unless he is top-8.
That is the main factor besides his performance, because the Giants will pay him at the upper levels of scale unless he crashes and burns.
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IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
Duh...isn't that exactly what the article says?
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Suppose he turns into an OK QB. Is he going to be okay with an OK contract? (say, $15-20 million/year).
That is the main factor besides his performance, because the Giants will pay him at the upper levels of scale unless he crashes and burns.
And then everybody will be wondering why they can't shop in free agency for more help.
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Suppose he turns into an OK QB. Is he going to be okay with an OK contract? (say, $15-20 million/year).
That is the main factor besides his performance, because the Giants will pay him at the upper levels of scale unless he crashes and burns.
Which is why it was so disheartening to see Gettleman keep his job. Jones's biggest rabbi is still in the building; if He went and Judge were keen to move on we might be looking at making the move this off-season. Shit, if Gettleman weren't in the building last year maybe we draft Herbert.
Judge needs to be the guy making the call. And with Gettleman and Garrett (both chosen by Mara, not Judge) still in the building the potential for a difference of opinions (and Gettleman having the final say) is very real.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
This.
He still needs to earn his next contract, but look at what the fifth year option will cost and then go up from there on what a typical second contract will cost.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
I'm also not convinced his ceiling is "advanced game manager." There have been times when he has played at an extremely high level.
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Garrett was mandated by Mara?
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
I don't buy that. Judge had other options than the Giants.
Also, can it be proven that Garrett was mandated by Mara?
Fair enough Ryan. You can win a SB I guess without an elite top 5 of 6 guy (see the Foles run), but looking at the 4 monsters left in the final 4 this year, it’s a much tougher fight.
My major concern is that DJ is not really a developmental QB, that’s he had 4 years of Cutliffe (and a great work ethic), but still has gaps in processing the field and pocket presence. And it’d kill me if, for example, the Steelers moved up and grabbed Lance and they hit it big. Hope the Giants scout the hell out of Lance.
In fact, given the dubious IQ's of a few of those QBs, they'd probably have made those circumstances worse.
But its BBI and there's more ground that needs beating with dead horses.
Here's a fun credibility challenge...
Ryan - name 5 players on the Giants roster right now that you do NOT believe could be top 10 in the league at their respective positions.
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yeah, I think DJ has a skillset to be a top 10 NFL QB. Everyone here is afraid to say it but yes I do.
Fair enough Ryan. You can win a SB I guess without an elite top 5 of 6 guy (see the Foles run), but looking at the 4 monsters left in the final 4 this year, it’s a much tougher fight.
My major concern is that DJ is not really a developmental QB, that’s he had 4 years of Cutliffe (and a great work ethic), but still has gaps in processing the field and pocket presence. And it’d kill me if, for example, the Steelers moved up and grabbed Lance and they hit it big. Hope the Giants scout the hell out of Lance.
We can argue this all day, but Brady is no longer a top 5 QB. He went to a loaded situation because he's no dummy, but everyone is lapping this hook line and sinker. It was all Brady those years and not Belichik! This Bucs team is arguable the most talented in the league, they just needed a QB with better decision making. I've watched the Bucs a ton the last five years and Jameis singlehandedly would sink them on weekly basis and why Arians hated him.
I just heard Peter King say this is Bradys second best year and I almost spit my coffee out. Some guys literally can't see past stats.
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
I regard to #2,......was Eli?
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Garrett was mandated by Mara?
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
In fact, given the dubious IQ's of a few of those QBs, they'd probably have made those circumstances worse.
But its BBI and there's more ground that needs beating with dead horses.
The funniest part to me is that the Chargers are getting all this credit for drafting Herbert and "seeing it" with him. Yet who they drafted has been confirmed that it was whoever the Dolphins didn't. Yet Tua struggled this year and that makes sense considering the talent surrounding both QBs. And thats the way NFL teams look at it, nobody plans on drafting an elite QB like Mahomes or possibly Allen, they draft a guy they can surround with talent that they can win with. Just look at Brady this year. All that team needed was a solid QB, which Brady still is at this point of his career.
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case...
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
I regard to #2,......was Eli?
I think so.
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"if we are OK with a JAG we are accepting mediocrity"
"hoping that someone will become something they are not"
It's called developing a quarterback. Just because Jones isn't a star right now doesn't mean he won't be in the future. It doesn't mean he will be. But your ability to act like he can't get better is infuriating, you're the same as Terps when it comes to this shit
Look, we get it - you don't watch any NFL games other than the Giants. But NFL QBs are winning the MVP award in their second season. They're establishing themselves as franchise cornerstones by their second season. They are proving they belong by their second season.
This antiquated QB development timeline that Giants fans cling to as a justification for Jones's slow growth at the most pivotal position in sports is just not aligned with how the NFL operates anymore.
To his credit (and I am not one to give DG credit), we are building a roster that actually has a chance to compete but doing so thus far in spite of our QB rather than because of him. A year from now, we'll probably be an 8-8 team with another season of question marks from Jones, and we'll be even farther away from the sort of prospect that can be a franchise QB. And we'll settle in for a half-decade of bouncing between 7-9 and 9-7 with draft picks that land between the 14th and 20th selection. Eventually, we'll have to either bottom out again or empty the cupboard for a QB prospect.
I'll go on record right now and say that we'll just trot on the treadmill until Arch Manning is that prospect that we finally go all-in for, and then we'll pull the trigger like we did for his uncle - Jones or whatever other fungible journeyman placeholder is available will man the position until then. This franchise is predictable enough to make that claim this far in advance.
Funny you say that because I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants tread water until Arch Manning comes out and sell the farm for him.
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In comment 15130913 crick n NC said:
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Garrett was mandated by Mara?
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
Hmmm...wording sounds familiar.
Am I?
You repeatedly sing the praises of every single member of the team, and then you act like it's some sort of major accomplishment for a prospect to have won you over. Of course they won you over, simply by wearing blue you have them in the top 10 players at their position.
Which is why you couldn't answer the question.
Very true, but shouldn't that also apply to Jeremiah's comments about DJ being a top-5 QB? At this point, there is much more evidence that he is a middle of the road QB than a pro bowler.
As I've said, you can win a SB with a mid-tier guy, you obviously need a more well-rounded team than, say, the 2011 Giants, which had a terrible running game and defense, but the QB cannot turn the ball over (although, in DJ's defense, he was much better with that in the 2nd half).
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In comment 15130928 ryanmkeane said:
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yeah, I think DJ has a skillset to be a top 10 NFL QB. Everyone here is afraid to say it but yes I do.
Fair enough Ryan. You can win a SB I guess without an elite top 5 of 6 guy (see the Foles run), but looking at the 4 monsters left in the final 4 this year, it’s a much tougher fight.
My major concern is that DJ is not really a developmental QB, that’s he had 4 years of Cutliffe (and a great work ethic), but still has gaps in processing the field and pocket presence. And it’d kill me if, for example, the Steelers moved up and grabbed Lance and they hit it big. Hope the Giants scout the hell out of Lance.
We can argue this all day, but Brady is no longer a top 5 QB. He went to a loaded situation because he's no dummy, but everyone is lapping this hook line and sinker. It was all Brady those years and not Belichik! This Bucs team is arguable the most talented in the league, they just needed a QB with better decision making. I've watched the Bucs a ton the last five years and Jameis singlehandedly would sink them on weekly basis and why Arians hated him.
I just heard Peter King say this is Bradys second best year and I almost spit my coffee out. Some guys literally can't see past stats.
The flip side of that though, Zeke, is Tuna’s famous line about how at some point, you are what your record says you are, right? We have five seasons of work to judge Jones on. What does his record say about him? It says 80 plus turnovers in 60 games and a losing record. Fingers crossed he develops in 2021, hope he gets his “Diggs” to work with, and turns things around.
Below was his scouting report...
Daniel Jones projects as a potential starter, but he's not going to be a universal prospect. Jones needs to work in an offense that is predicated on dispersing the football quickly out of his hands and allows for a lot of rhythm work and downfield routes. Jones' work under pressure is also of concern, so he'll need to work behind an established, effective offensive line if he's going to reach his ceiling, which projects as an average starting quarterback in the NFL. Scheme dependent but starter qualities.
I couldn't agree more with both the comp and report, which is why the Giants need to continue to improve the OL. It's gotten better, but still average at best.
Not one person should say yes to that after last season. And I'm not anti Jones by any means. But the stats are the stats.
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"if we are OK with a JAG we are accepting mediocrity"
"hoping that someone will become something they are not"
It's called developing a quarterback. Just because Jones isn't a star right now doesn't mean he won't be in the future. It doesn't mean he will be. But your ability to act like he can't get better is infuriating, you're the same as Terps when it comes to this shit
Look, we get it - you don't watch any NFL games other than the Giants. But NFL QBs are winning the MVP award in their second season. They're establishing themselves as franchise cornerstones by their second season. They are proving they belong by their second season.
This antiquated QB development timeline that Giants fans cling to as a justification for Jones's slow growth at the most pivotal position in sports is just not aligned with how the NFL operates anymore.
To his credit (and I am not one to give DG credit), we are building a roster that actually has a chance to compete but doing so thus far in spite of our QB rather than because of him. A year from now, we'll probably be an 8-8 team with another season of question marks from Jones, and we'll be even farther away from the sort of prospect that can be a franchise QB. And we'll settle in for a half-decade of bouncing between 7-9 and 9-7 with draft picks that land between the 14th and 20th selection. Eventually, we'll have to either bottom out again or empty the cupboard for a QB prospect.
I'll go on record right now and say that we'll just trot on the treadmill until Arch Manning is that prospect that we finally go all-in for, and then we'll pull the trigger like we did for his uncle - Jones or whatever other fungible journeyman placeholder is available will man the position until then. This franchise is predictable enough to make that claim this far in advance.
Well said. And unfortunately I agree 100%.
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In comment 15130913 crick n NC said:
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Garrett was mandated by Mara?
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
I don't have confirmation. I also don't have confirmation that Judge picked Garrett, so that would also be supposition.
We know that Garrett is right with the Maras. We know they were going to consider him for the head coach job. We know the Giants' offense was pathetic, yet Gettleman said they're antsy about the prospect of losing Garrett.
My supposition is that Garrett was Mara's pick. I suppose I could be wrong. What do you think?
Below was his scouting report...
Daniel Jones projects as a potential starter, but he's not going to be a universal prospect. Jones needs to work in an offense that is predicated on dispersing the football quickly out of his hands and allows for a lot of rhythm work and downfield routes. Jones' work under pressure is also of concern, so he'll need to work behind an established, effective offensive line if he's going to reach his ceiling, which projects as an average starting quarterback in the NFL. Scheme dependent but starter qualities.
I couldn't agree more with both the comp and report, which is why the Giants need to continue to improve the OL. It's gotten better, but still average at best.
Exactly... In Shurmurs system, with an injured Saquon. Daniel Jones threw for 24 touchdowns. He led all rookies in TD passes and was 4th all-time in TD passes as a rookie. That system, which by the way is the same as Kevin Stephanski's (Cleveland) played more to his strengths than Garrets's system. In addition, lets be honest, without Saquon on the field, the Giants skills Unit is horrible. I've seen several post listing qb's taken in the last 3-4 years who are showing promise.
Kyler Murray
Josh Allen
Baker
Lamar Jackson
Mahomes
Watson
each one of those QB's have #1 WR talent, in fact, Cleveland, Buffalo, and Arizona have #2 WR's that would be #1's on the Giants.
DJ is going to get a 3rd season to prove himself. He'll need help from the Scheme and an upgrade in talent around him.
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In comment 15130923 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15130913 crick n NC said:
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Garrett was mandated by Mara?
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
I don't have confirmation. I also don't have confirmation that Judge picked Garrett, so that would also be supposition.
We know that Garrett is right with the Maras. We know they were going to consider him for the head coach job. We know the Giants' offense was pathetic, yet Gettleman said they're antsy about the prospect of losing Garrett.
My supposition is that Garrett was Mara's pick. I suppose I could be wrong. What do you think?
Got it. You worded it above in a previous post like it was fact. Didn't know if I missed a report or something. Your opinion, understood.
I don't "sing the praises of every member of the team." You're just really annoyed constantly that I like the direction that the team is going in.
You may disagree, but you gotta stop this weird obsession. It's getting extremely uncomfortable.
But, he also demonstrates some of the poorest pocket awareness, ball security, and feel for the game I've seen in recent years from a top 10 draft pick. He's got to improve his read and recognition, feel for the pass rush including climbing the pocket, and I do think his throwing motion needs to be shortened. Suspect his release would time below average, and he will bird-dog receivers, all of which helps defenders find his eyes and close on the pass.
2021 is a crucial year for Jones, and for the Giants progress under DG. The roster probably needs approximately 8 starter caliber upgrades. There's a lot to sort out and develop.
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was Ryan Tannehill.
Below was his scouting report...
Daniel Jones projects as a potential starter, but he's not going to be a universal prospect. Jones needs to work in an offense that is predicated on dispersing the football quickly out of his hands and allows for a lot of rhythm work and downfield routes. Jones' work under pressure is also of concern, so he'll need to work behind an established, effective offensive line if he's going to reach his ceiling, which projects as an average starting quarterback in the NFL. Scheme dependent but starter qualities.
I couldn't agree more with both the comp and report, which is why the Giants need to continue to improve the OL. It's gotten better, but still average at best.
Exactly... In Shurmurs system, with an injured Saquon. Daniel Jones threw for 24 touchdowns. He led all rookies in TD passes and was 4th all-time in TD passes as a rookie. That system, which by the way is the same as Kevin Stephanski's (Cleveland) played more to his strengths than Garrets's system. In addition, lets be honest, without Saquon on the field, the Giants skills Unit is horrible. I've seen several post listing qb's taken in the last 3-4 years who are showing promise.
Kyler Murray
Josh Allen
Baker
Lamar Jackson
Mahomes
Watson
each one of those QB's have #1 WR talent, in fact, Cleveland, Buffalo, and Arizona have #2 WR's that would be #1's on the Giants.
DJ is going to get a 3rd season to prove himself. He'll need help from the Scheme and an upgrade in talent around him.
That’s a great post that got me thinking. Hope we do get Jones some real weapons and he thrives.
I would echo what crick said.
And please stop with this horse shit that Jones isn't here if he isn't a first round pick. First off, that's not even true. Second, pedigree matters. The guy was a first round pick because he has abilities that 5th rounders don't usually possess. He played in a tougher conference than some guy in a lower division.
Of course his draft status matters. But so does his play.
You guys act like the Giants have been too loyal over the last 10 years. They have shed more blood than any other franchise. They have cut more bodies than I can even count.
It's ok to just be uncertain and let things play out. Not every decision is a referendum on the Giants way.
He did improve. In year one with a new staff much in the same way Eli did improve in his year one with the same first year staff. If you want to hold 2019 against Jones and claim that Jones shouldn't have experienced growing pains in 2020, have at it, but you're going to throw the QB out based on the logic? That too is risky.
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What do you think? Do you have a thought, or are you only interested in commenting on mine?
I would echo what crick said.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
I don't think Judge hired Garrett.
Stay the course, keep building. If Daniel Jones still somehow isn't getting it done in 2021, yeah, we can probably say he isn't the guy. But, because the investment was made, they have conviction about him, he's shown signs of being a true franchise QB, you stick with him. He's 23 years old. He had 2 turnovers in his last 6 games of this season, went 4-2 in the final 6 games, with basically zero weapons on offense. Gee I wonder what will happen if we give him some extra help and his best player back.
And please stop with this horse shit that Jones isn't here if he isn't a first round pick. First off, that's not even true. Second, pedigree matters. The guy was a first round pick because he has abilities that 5th rounders don't usually possess. He played in a tougher conference than some guy in a lower division.
Of course his draft status matters. But so does his play.
You guys act like the Giants have been too loyal over the last 10 years. They have shed more blood than any other franchise. They have cut more bodies than I can even count.
It's ok to just be uncertain and let things play out. Not every decision is a referendum on the Giants way.
Jones needs to show something next year. I don't want to sign the next Kirk Cousins to a contract like Russell Wilson's. Show me next year. No more excuses.
Then the Giants start 1-7 or 2-6 again. Every year.
This post is complete bullshit.
Then the Giants start 1-7 or 2-6 again. Every year.
Oh yeah? When is the last time that happened?
2019: We finished 2-6
2018: We finished 4-4
2017: We finished 2-8
What exactly are you referencing?
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In comment 15130994 Go Terps said:
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What do you think? Do you have a thought, or are you only interested in commenting on mine?
I would echo what crick said.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
I don't think Judge hired Garrett.
You certainly could be right. Would not be a good look by Mara if it came out he forced Garrett on the staff.
Jon, gonna have to disagree with you there. Over the past few months the majority of this site has been saying the same shit over and over again when it comes to Jones. What they don't realize is that you have to just wait this out. If you want rebuilding, you can't be impatient about it. I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways.
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In comment 15131012 BubbaMojo said:
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In comment 15130994 Go Terps said:
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What do you think? Do you have a thought, or are you only interested in commenting on mine?
I would echo what crick said.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
I don't think Judge hired Garrett.
You certainly could be right. Would not be a good look by Mara if it came out he forced Garrett on the staff.
I will say, though, your opinion may end up being correct. Mainly because if I was being honest, and somebody asked me who Judge would hire if he had free reign to interview and sign whomever he wanted as his OC, I would think I'd get pretty far down the list before I would have arrived at Garrett.
Odd representation from one of the posts above. In the very same paragraph to suggest Daniel Jones shows signs of being a true franchise QB, but also that if he isn't getting it done in 2021 then he isn't the guy.
That is quite a range of outcomes to put out there. Especially when arguing with other posters that think Daniel Jones isn't the guy, only they think so now.
I don't "sing the praises of every member of the team." You're just really annoyed constantly that I like the direction that the team is going in.
You may disagree, but you gotta stop this weird obsession. It's getting extremely uncomfortable.
Ryan, whether you realize it or not, most people here think of you as someone who will polish whatever turd the Giants serve you.
I'll gladly put my football knowledge up against yours any day of the week, and I'm pretty confident I can stand toe to toe with you on how to read and interpret things.
Ask around about how you're perceived.
Odd representation from one of the posts above. In the very same paragraph to suggest Daniel Jones shows signs of being a true franchise QB, but also that if he isn't getting it done in 2021 then he isn't the guy.
That is quite a range of outcomes to put out there. Especially when arguing with other posters that think Daniel Jones isn't the guy, only they think so now.
chick, if you read my post, i said Daniel Jones went 4-2 in his last 6 games as the starter. That is a fact. He didn't go 3-3. He went 4-2. He didn't play against the Browns.
In fact, given the dubious IQ's of a few of those QBs, they'd probably have made those circumstances worse.
But its BBI and there's more ground that needs beating with dead horses.
Just out of curiosity, what does Jones do that is remotely on the same level as Herbert?
If you're such a well-informed fan without a hint of homerish bias, surely you can answer my original question.
Name five players on the roster that you think are NOT capable of being top 10 at their position.
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not 4-2.
Odd representation from one of the posts above. In the very same paragraph to suggest Daniel Jones shows signs of being a true franchise QB, but also that if he isn't getting it done in 2021 then he isn't the guy.
That is quite a range of outcomes to put out there. Especially when arguing with other posters that think Daniel Jones isn't the guy, only they think so now.
chick, if you read my post, i said Daniel Jones went 4-2 in his last 6 games as the starter. That is a fact. He didn't go 3-3. He went 4-2. He didn't play against the Browns.
My bad ryanmkeane. You are correct. I read it as the Giants and not specifically Jones.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
I don't think Judge hired Garrett.
Go Terps - I don't know if this can be said so literally. Would suggest that Judge did indeed hire Garrett but with some suggested hints from the existing front office.
It was fairly publicized that one of the things the owners were not very fond of with Shurmur was that they believed he brought in a poor set of assistant coaches. And I think you can also find some media reports that suggested Mara wanted first-time Head Coach Judge to ensure he added some well-experienced coaches to his staff.
It may be semantics to some degree but maybe Judge was given a list of guys to include as part of his interviewing process, and it came to be that Garrett was not only on the list but also his top choice after the interviews were complete.
Scoring points correlates to winning. The Giants were second worst in scoring points and finished 6-10 as a result. It's an achievement by the defense that they won even that many.
I'm going to say this simply and clearly:
In 2020 Daniel Jones was one of the worst quarterbacks in the NFL. He is only starting in 2021 because of his draft status.
Hopefully he shows himself to be something more than the passenger he was in 2020. But I've never been real big on hope and faith...
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Are you claiming that Barkley is worth an incremental 19 passing TDs? Is that what this has come to? You're that incapable of acknowledging that Jones had a shitty year?
Personally, I feel that if anyone (here) truly and accurately knows who Jones is or ever will be, then we wouldn't be having any arguments about him.
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some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Are you claiming that Barkley is worth an incremental 19 passing TDs? Is that what this has come to? You're that incapable of acknowledging that Jones had a shitty year?
Is that even close to what I said?? I'm saying Jones had a poor group of WR's and no viable red zone targets.
Two can play at the game of being dense. Are you that fucking incapable of acknowledging that?
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Would think most of Daniel Jones critics would suggest he could throw for more touchdowns (like he did in 2019) but with that would come the price of increased turnover risk.
The QB position requires a necessary level of production with a reasonably limited amount of turnovers. If Jones cannot deliver one without the other then its fair for some fans to think otherwise with him going forward.
Personally, I feel that if anyone (here) truly and accurately knows who Jones is or ever will be, then we wouldn't be having any arguments about him.
That's why this is a message board and not an encyclopedia. None of us are trading in absolutes.
As it relates to Jones, it's foolish to not even acknowledge that the whole QB development timeline has been turned on its ear in the past decade or so, and that DJ enters year three behind schedule for what his draft status should dictate.
That doesn't mean that he won't become the QB that DG fell in full-bloom-love with, but he certainly wasn't worthy of that affection in 2020.
The problem is that the "they're moving the goalposts on DG!!!1!!one!" crowd can't ever walk it back when they're wrong, which is odd, considering they're so quick to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of "moving the goalposts."
I'd suggest that it would be a teachable moment for some that DG is not quite the infallible figure they claim (cue the "I'm just bringing data, not taking a side"), but it doesn't often seem like DG's most ardent supporters are particularly interested in learning.
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In comment 15131080 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Are you claiming that Barkley is worth an incremental 19 passing TDs? Is that what this has come to? You're that incapable of acknowledging that Jones had a shitty year?
Is that even close to what I said?? I'm saying Jones had a poor group of WR's and no viable red zone targets.
Two can play at the game of being dense. Are you that fucking incapable of acknowledging that?
I know Jones was hamstrung by that aggregate separation stat. It couldn't possibly be that he's not actually a very good QB.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Stats aren’t probative of his competence — but they mean something, right? People are skeptical because he’s shown a disturbing penchant for turnovers both in college and the NFL (80 in 60 games) and he’s been the starting QB on the lowest scoring team in the NFL the past 2 years. That doesn’t concern you?
Ryan, you wouldn't know rocket science from a bottle rocket.
How's that list of 5 coming along?
Raiders, Vikings, Cardinals scored a bunch of points this year, they missed the playoffs.
Come on Ryan, that is total bullshit. No one was saying he needed 30 TD passes, but he sure as hell needs more than 10! And I agree he doesn't necessarily have to be "great", but the lower you go on the greatness scale, the better the team he will need around him.
Raiders, Vikings, Cardinals scored a bunch of points this year, they missed the playoffs.
Ryan, Herbert accounted for 36 TDs vs only 11 turnovers as a rookie — with no training camp and not getting starter reps. It’s a bit embarrassing for us to compare their rookie years.
Raiders, Vikings, Cardinals scored a bunch of points this year, they missed the playoffs.
And they were all better teams than the Giants. And when we needed a win against the Cardinals they came to Jersey in a 1PM game and pushed our shit in. And Jones was non-competitive.
Again, Jones was one of the worst quarterbacks in the league in 2020. That's a fact.
We are now left hoping he's better in 2021. Shitty place to be.
I'm expecting more from Jones than "suck less than you have been sucking".
Save it. No one here, not any of the so called realists, not the optimists, no one here knows wtf Jones is.
We saw Eli make so many NYG and NFL fans look so fucking stupid and here we are again with some of the same fans writing the book on Jones. Yet Joe Judge, who has been coaching in the NFL for 10 years plus seems compelled to want to continue working with Jones. Why? It's not because he wants to be right. it's not because Jones doesn't rock the boat. it's not because Jones is from Duke. It's because Jones has talent and has displayed progression.
That's why I think he's got a shot to develop into a legit QB. I am not accepting shit. I am a fan who knows that players get better. Teams get better. Coaching matters.
You don't get to write a QB off every 20 games because you haven't seen enough star power or stats that fit into your nice little agenda. It doesn't work that way. Many QBs do in fact take time to develop. Most QBs do in fact need help. FACTS. Not horse shit logic.
This is a terrific post👍
I'm expecting more from Jones than "suck less than you have been sucking".
It is absolutely bewildering where so many stand on Jones and what they expect. This is my "1/11th theory" with this group - Jones is just another part of the offense. No more important than the RG.
You would think he was a 6th round pick, not the 6th overall pick.
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we've been down this road so many times now it's laughable. So many QBs who EVERYONE just KNEW were finished products. Fans are insistent on telling the future and for some reason feel compelled to do so before the body of work has yet to be a finished product. Fans also insist that they know more than the coaches know. You don't.
Save it. No one here, not any of the so called realists, not the optimists, no one here knows wtf Jones is.
We saw Eli make so many NYG and NFL fans look so fucking stupid and here we are again with some of the same fans writing the book on Jones. Yet Joe Judge, who has been coaching in the NFL for 10 years plus seems compelled to want to continue working with Jones. Why? It's not because he wants to be right. it's not because Jones doesn't rock the boat. it's not because Jones is from Duke. It's because Jones has talent and has displayed progression.
That's why I think he's got a shot to develop into a legit QB. I am not accepting shit. I am a fan who knows that players get better. Teams get better. Coaching matters.
You don't get to write a QB off every 20 games because you haven't seen enough star power or stats that fit into your nice little agenda. It doesn't work that way. Many QBs do in fact take time to develop. Most QBs do in fact need help. FACTS. Not horse shit logic.
This is a terrific post👍
No, it's really not.
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In comment 15130627 Dnew15 said:
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case...
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
I regard to #2,......was Eli?
I think so.
They only made the playoffs 5 times (I think) in his career, the team with Eli at the helm was 117-117 in regular season how is that a perennial contender?
Another thing I don't understand is people acting like he has zero arm talent just because he doesn't have a strong arm. He throws with tremendous amount of touch and accuracy. Anticipation is far more important than arm strenght. Problem is when the skill players stink there's nothing to anticipate and he gets blasted for not pulling the trigger. Do we know if he can show the NFL level type anticipation it takes to be a top 8 QB in the league? Nope, but the thing is with him that he's played with such poor supporting casts that there is very little to go on.
What he has shown is he knows when NOT to pull the trigger, which is something he's needed to work on. Of course he's forced balls in the past, you have to to make things happen with this team or what he was playing with in college. Saquons the x factor that rises all boats, but DJ has played with a healthy Saquon for like 6 games.
I see a lot of the same growth that Allen had in the second year, he was clearly becoming a better QB and has the mental makeup (which is extremely underrated). I get people will point to the stats, but make no bones about it, DJ became a better QB this year and I'm excited for his future. Probably not an elite ceiling like Allen has, but certainly in that 5-10 range. I placed a SB bet on the Bills this year based on the jump as well as them adding some key pieces and being very well coached.
Are the Giants winning the SB next year? Nope (and I believe the would have been a darkhorse candidate if they had squeeked in this year and nailed their offseason moves). But I see a lot of similarities between us and the Bills from last year, including a QB who I think makes the jump. If that win total comes out 8.5 or less (which it most likely will) I'll be hammering the over.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
And please stop any comparisons of Jones to Justin Herbert and Josh Allen. They only become points of contention as they sound ridiculous and only create immediate backlash.
Best served to just say Judge is backing Daniel Jones for now. Much better position for defenders to take.
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and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
Stunning.
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In comment 15131149 Zeke's Alibi said:
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and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
Stunning.
Because it isn't about the stats, it's about building the best quarterback. Any of you that have done any sort of athletic endeavor knows sometimes it gets worse before it gets much better. I probably should have made the interception total even higher though because I completely forgot that he had so many due to the crap around him. Guess I spaced on that because he looked like a sub 5 interception QB out there.
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we've been down this road so many times now it's laughable. So many QBs who EVERYONE just KNEW were finished products. Fans are insistent on telling the future and for some reason feel compelled to do so before the body of work has yet to be a finished product. Fans also insist that they know more than the coaches know. You don't.
Save it. No one here, not any of the so called realists, not the optimists, no one here knows wtf Jones is.
We saw Eli make so many NYG and NFL fans look so fucking stupid and here we are again with some of the same fans writing the book on Jones. Yet Joe Judge, who has been coaching in the NFL for 10 years plus seems compelled to want to continue working with Jones. Why? It's not because he wants to be right. it's not because Jones doesn't rock the boat. it's not because Jones is from Duke. It's because Jones has talent and has displayed progression.
That's why I think he's got a shot to develop into a legit QB. I am not accepting shit. I am a fan who knows that players get better. Teams get better. Coaching matters.
You don't get to write a QB off every 20 games because you haven't seen enough star power or stats that fit into your nice little agenda. It doesn't work that way. Many QBs do in fact take time to develop. Most QBs do in fact need help. FACTS. Not horse shit logic.
This is a terrific post👍
The wait and see approach makes for a terrific post? That could have been said in one sentence.
You realize that under Accorsi, the Giants QB situation improved literally every year? Go from a bunch of noodle arms to get Kerry off the scrap heap to make a massive draft day trade to get Eli. The Giants QB line was upward sloped every year he was the GM.
Then we have Mr Gettleman, who’s job #1 is to transition away from Eli, and he has two elite QB talents staring him in the face, and instead takes a guy who if he improves a lot maybe can crack a top 10 spot, if you’re optimistic.
I have the Giants in my blood but I’m not sure how much more of this I can take.
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and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
It blew me away.
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In comment 15131152 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15131149 Zeke's Alibi said:
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and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
Stunning.
Because it isn't about the stats, it's about building the best quarterback. Any of you that have done any sort of athletic endeavor knows sometimes it gets worse before it gets much better. I probably should have made the interception total even higher though because I completely forgot that he had so many due to the crap around him. Guess I spaced on that because he looked like a sub 5 interception QB out there.
You could have written this with far fewer words:
"I didn't realize he only had 11 TDs to go along with his 10 INTs, and he had to cut his TDs down by 14 to reduce his INTs by 2."
It was obvious from the jump this year what they were doing with DJ and that was tearing it down to build him up. There's growing pains there and obvious ones because the rest of the supporting cast stinks, but I certainly trust Garrett when it comes to this and Judge is obviously fully on board as well.
It was obvious from the jump this year what they were doing with DJ and that was tearing it down to build him up. There's growing pains there and obvious ones because the rest of the supporting cast stinks, but I certainly trust Garrett when it comes to this and Judge is obviously fully on board as well.
His growth?
DJ took an enormous step backwards this year. Denying that doesn't make you a better fan. It makes you an idiot.
Coming off averaging 2 turnovers per start his rookie year, Jones had an horrifically unproductive 2020. Not an around the margins bad year, an horrifically bad year. It’s okay to acknowledge that he didn’t have the best weapons, but in an inflated stats NFL where Tyler Heinicke comes out of grad school to throw for over 300 yards, Jones dramatically underperformed. And in ANY business where your metrics suck, there’s gonna be skepticism.
Jones will have a better season next year. I'm fairly confident in that. He was a bottom five starting QB this year. I don't think that's all he is. I was encouraged by his 2019 season. But if you projected his totals over a 16 game season, it's still not probably not a top ten QB due to the turnovers. But it's much closer than what we saw this year.
Jones' biggest supporters discuss a more mobile Jared Goff and 30 TD seasons in hopeful terms. Isn't that a red flag? Do people think we can build a Rams caliber roster around Jones to be a contender?
Next year's big. But a 25/12 TD/INT ratio won't be good enough to warrant further investment. I think a lot of people still think QBs throw at the same TD rates they did 10-15 years ago.
Ok. Maybe Gates, he was pissing off some Dallas players. That was cool.
Jones will have a better season next year. I'm fairly confident in that. He was a bottom five starting QB this year. I don't think that's all he is. I was encouraged by his 2019 season. But if you projected his totals over a 16 game season, it's still not probably not a top ten QB due to the turnovers. But it's much closer than what we saw this year.
Jones' biggest supporters discuss a more mobile Jared Goff and 30 TD seasons in hopeful terms. Isn't that a red flag? Do people think we can build a Rams caliber roster around Jones to be a contender?
Next year's big. But a 25/12 TD/INT ratio won't be good enough to warrant further investment. I think a lot of people still think QBs throw at the same TD rates they did 10-15 years ago.
This really gets to the heart of it. The majority of DJ's most enthusiastic supporters come across as those who have never watched a game that the Giants weren't playing in.
He was better in the second half than in the first half but unfortunately, that is a pretty low bar. He was 63% for 1533 yards 6 td and 3 picks for an 87.6 qb rating 7.2 yards per attempt in 7 games in the second half. In the first half, he was 62% 1410 5 td 7 picks 73.7 qb rating 5.17 yards per attempt.
But it's a passing league and passers are putting up huge numbers. Taking his marks from the second half, he would still be near the bottom of starting qb in completion percentage, td's, qb rating. I know, I know, stats mean nothing because you NFL scouts here can see it all, but for us mere mortals, Jones was not good either half of the season. He did improve from laughably bad to borderline NFL starter.
Jones' draft profile said his ceiling was a starter, and that is where he is. To think he is going to suddenly blossom into a top 10 starter may be (not definite yet) magical thinking.
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In comment 15131152 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15131149 Zeke's Alibi said:
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and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
Stunning.
Because it isn't about the stats, it's about building the best quarterback. Any of you that have done any sort of athletic endeavor knows sometimes it gets worse before it gets much better. I probably should have made the interception total even higher though because I completely forgot that he had so many due to the crap around him. Guess I spaced on that because he looked like a sub 5 interception QB out there.
Elite Qbs aren't built, they're born that way.
Personally, I feel that if anyone (here) truly and accurately knows who Jones is or ever will be, then we wouldn't be having any arguments about him.
How do we know Judge loves Jones? Because he said so? You think he would say he hated his ability? That's awfully naive.
Points Allowed: TB-8, NYG-9, KC-11, GB-13, BUF-16
Pass Y/A: GB-3, BUF-4, KC-6, TB-8, NYG-26
Pass TD: GB-1, TB-2, BUF-3, KC-4, NYG-32
Rush Y/A: GB-6, KC-11, NYG-13, BUF-21, TB-25
Rush TD: GB-16, BUF-17, TB-18, KC-22, NYG-23
Winning in the NFL in 2021 is about throwing the football to create points. Mara/Gettleman/Garrett do not operate this way.
Decisions like these, especially when it comes to QBs, are never easy to make. Although it was clear Jones struggled in his second season, he'll be given another chance.. and he deserves that. You could make the argument a better supporting cast will help improve his performance just like you can make the argument that he's regressed but there's no need to have that argument because NYG will give him another year..
However, they will add a better failsafe. The defense performed too well not too. If Jones struggles again next season while the defense plays well they'll need a better option than Colt McCoy to turn to.. And I've heard Brissett is a likely target.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
He's going to get his chance next year, so he'd better deliver. No excuses, although I'm sure some people will find a way to blame the supporting cast again without blaming the GM.
Fair point, and it was not right for me to make it personal.
But I do genuinely think that ZA didn't realize/remember exactly how mediocre DJ's passing stats were this past season when he threw out the threshold that he thought most Giants fans would or would not approve of (28 TDs/16 INTs).
I don't think he is an idiot, but I do think that particular post was a full notch below the level at which he typically writes.
Another thing I don't understand is people acting like he has zero arm talent just because he doesn't have a strong arm. He throws with tremendous amount of touch and accuracy. Anticipation is far more important than arm strenght. Problem is when the skill players stink there's nothing to anticipate and he gets blasted for not pulling the trigger. Do we know if he can show the NFL level type anticipation it takes to be a top 8 QB in the league? Nope, but the thing is with him that he's played with such poor supporting casts that there is very little to go on.
What he has shown is he knows when NOT to pull the trigger, which is something he's needed to work on. Of course he's forced balls in the past, you have to to make things happen with this team or what he was playing with in college. Saquons the x factor that rises all boats, but DJ has played with a healthy Saquon for like 6 games.
I see a lot of the same growth that Allen had in the second year, he was clearly becoming a better QB and has the mental makeup (which is extremely underrated). I get people will point to the stats, but make no bones about it, DJ became a better QB this year and I'm excited for his future. Probably not an elite ceiling like Allen has, but certainly in that 5-10 range. I placed a SB bet on the Bills this year based on the jump as well as them adding some key pieces and being very well coached.
Are the Giants winning the SB next year? Nope (and I believe the would have been a darkhorse candidate if they had squeeked in this year and nailed their offseason moves). But I see a lot of similarities between us and the Bills from last year, including a QB who I think makes the jump. If that win total comes out 8.5 or less (which it most likely will) I'll be hammering the over.
For a guy who I find pretty insightful and bright about football, there are some very strange conclusions in this post.
The number one responsibility for the QB is to score points. That's it in a nutshell. Figure out a way to get into the endzone first or settle for a FG second. If our QB can't produce at least, and I'm being kind here because this NFL practically does everything possible for you to score TDs, 25 TDs than he should be (1) a permanent back-up or (2) out of the league. It's a cliche, but totally apt, but the QB always touches the ball on offense, so he has to be points producer.
I don't care how ordinary our WRs are (I actually don't think they are that bad) or how ordinary our OL is (which they probably were), Jones needs to produce considerably more than 11 TDs. One word describes this type of production for the 6th pick - embarrassing.
I'm surprised more people don't use that word.
You know what? I'd rather have a player like Jamis Winston. A guy who will get you 30+ TDs and 30 INTs. At least I'm getting into the damn endzone.
These Allen comps really need to stop. Jones is not in his class as a player and athlete.
Right now Gardner Minshew would be better for this team. For a 6th round pick, he's showing a lot better than Jones.
Let’s see if that turns out to be true, next year should prove that.
But let’s not dismiss that Jones actually maybe benefited from Shurmur, and his dramatic drop off in productivity was because of Schuplinski.
It’s obvious to everyone on planet earth that Jones needs to throw more than 10 touchdown passes. So, let’s shut the fuck up about that.
It’s also factually accurate that you can win Super Bowls with quarterbacks who throw 28-33 on a consistent basis. Some of the very best franchise QBs of the past 20 years have been around that number their whole career. I mean hell - everyone loves to beat their dicks to Lamar Jackson and he can’t even throw the ball down the field! But hey he scores a bunch of cute plays so yay Ravens.
Again, the difference between a 2 yard rushing TD and a passing TD means absolute shit to me. I’d rather have a team that can run it down your throat and pass it all over the field when they need to, instead of a team that throws the ball on every down. The very best teams that win the playoffs can run the ball, and they have a franchise QB who can throw it on a consistent basis and make all the throws, and can play winning football. I’ll point to Eli Manning’s best “statistical season” he ever had, we sucked. We went 6-10. His best years were 07-11 and even though they weren’t amazing stats wise he was an assassin out there and he had full control of everything. He was absolutely a top 10 QB during that time. But yeah - he threw all those TDs to Beckham during the late years but guess what it didn’t matter because we sucked.
Again, unless your name is Mahomes or Rodgers, 40 TD is not the norm. Some of the best best franchise QBs of the last 20 years have been around 30 their whole career.
On a championship contender, I want a QB who has full control of the offense, a guy who is tough and a guy who can make all he throws all over the field when he needs to, depending on the game plan. That’s what Eli Manning was and that’s what I think DJ can be, but he has played 26 games.
Let’s see if that turns out to be true, next year should prove that.
But let’s not dismiss that Jones actually maybe benefited from Shurmur, and his dramatic drop off in productivity was because of Schuplinski.
Good point on Shurmur. Down the stretch this year, Lock started to play much better with Denver. Perhaps Shurmur is starting to pay dividends with that project now.
Terps literally just showed you that the four teams remaining in the playoffs were the top four passing teams in the league.
Good for you to step in like that.
Look forward to seeing you suggest the same to Fmic and his kind. I am sure there will be plenty of opportunities.
Let’s see if that turns out to be true, next year should prove that.
But let’s not dismiss that Jones actually maybe benefited from Shurmur, and his dramatic drop off in productivity was because of Schuplinski.
I'm just saying what I thought I saw. I remeber very early in the season remarking this to my Cowboys buddy I watch games with. Around week 5 or 6 I was ready to start looking at QBs for next year IF he didn't start to put it together by end of season. Something clicked in the 2nd half of the Bucs game when he finally threw a ball away. Right now the biggest thing holding him back from tossing 30tds is talent I believe. Either protection or skill guys. This team is built with a running philosophy so I don't expect to get any different lineman anytime soon, but this is a great year to add skill guys. People are also discoutnign the fact that the game plan this year was to shorten to the fuck out of games and that affects the stat line as well. I'd be curious how many drives we had, has to be lowest 5 and quite posssibly the least.
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Zeke an idiot. I can see why some would disagree with his stance on Jones, but I certainly don't consider him of idiot status.
Good for you to step in like that.
Look forward to seeing you suggest the same to Fmic and his kind. I am sure there will be plenty of opportunities.
Oh and tell Bubbamojo too.
Your "confidence" that he will emerge with the "right scheme" isn't enough evidence. Sorry. The QB should make the scheme work. It shouldn't be the scheme that makes the QB work. This kid doesn't have it. We see what he is. Sure, put the perfect team around him, and they'll win. But that's not sustainable.
In the NFL the bet you want to make is to get an elite QB. If you don't have an elite QB you need all the systems to be great: the pass rush, the secondary, the run D, the O-line. If you don't have an elite QB then you need a giant parlay bet to come through. Is that what you want to root for?
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Zeke an idiot. I can see why some would disagree with his stance on Jones, but I certainly don't consider him of idiot status.
Fair point, and it was not right for me to make it personal.
But I do genuinely think that ZA didn't realize/remember exactly how mediocre DJ's passing stats were this past season when he threw out the threshold that he thought most Giants fans would or would not approve of (28 TDs/16 INTs).
I don't think he is an idiot, but I do think that particular post was a full notch below the level at which he typically writes.
GD, I take stuff here personally as well sometimes. I read a lot of your posts and Zeke's posts, I find you both to be pretty reasonable which is why I hardly ever engage with either one of you.
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year, but I'm confident he makes the jump as a 3rd year QB in the second year of the offense. I also think we see a different offensive playcall set once we get Saquon back. His presense will help the pass blocking, can't just tee off when you need to account for him. Garrett has had TWO receivers in top 10 ypc practically every year he was in Dallas I've been told, where was that this year? Sidelined due to personnel limitations.
Your "confidence" that he will emerge with the "right scheme" isn't enough evidence. Sorry. The QB should make the scheme work. It shouldn't be the scheme that makes the QB work. This kid doesn't have it. We see what he is. Sure, put the perfect team around him, and they'll win. But that's not sustainable.
In the NFL the bet you want to make is to get an elite QB. If you don't have an elite QB you need all the systems to be great: the pass rush, the secondary, the run D, the O-line. If you don't have an elite QB then you need a giant parlay bet to come through. Is that what you want to root for?
Good post. And it's going to take a very deft hand, or an inordinate amount of luck, to build that team with all of the "systems" you cite.
I don’t think anyone would argue against that.
So now let’s assess the odds and to what degree these outcomes are likely and immediate. Let’s say some of those things don’t happen or happen to a lesser degree, then can Jones be a productive quarterback?
If we assume improvements can develop on a spectrum, and the external factors from Jones trend toward likely and not miraculous, I think it’s fair to say Jones himself needs to be much, much better for the Giants to be a contender.
If you have a team like TB who is 8-8 and being held back by the QB play, then a guy like Brady coming in turns it all around. They were one player away, everything else was set.
I am going to bet that if next year the Giants OL plays as well as GB, and the WR's are as good as GB, then Daniel Jones suddenly looks like a franchise guy.
This is the challenge for GM's. Players are in all different situations, you can't just look at factors like team success to judge them.
What about assessing receivers with a crap QB throwing to them?
Points Allowed: TB-8, NYG-9, KC-11, GB-13, BUF-16
Pass Y/A: GB-3, BUF-4, KC-6, TB-8, NYG-26
Pass TD: GB-1, TB-2, BUF-3, KC-4, NYG-32
Rush Y/A: GB-6, KC-11, NYG-13, BUF-21, TB-25
Rush TD: GB-16, BUF-17, TB-18, KC-22, NYG-23
Winning in the NFL in 2021 is about throwing the football to create points. Mara/Gettleman/Garrett do not operate this way.
This is a Great Post...great points. This chases me off thoughts to sign LW and DT and then Draft Micah. I might consider ONLY LW, with the other two slots traded for the Offensive side of the ball.
To the DJ questions... The Attack plan and the Arsenal on Offense has been minimal. They need 4-5 additional Scary Players on Offense...more speed at attack positions
-2019 he was the #2 QB thru camp behind Eli
-2019 he takes over and outside of his fumbles he is good for a rookie by any standard
-2020 Covid hits. A new offense is installed. No real training camp to build on, no pre-season games
-2020 his OL is again terrible for the majority of the season; he loses his only playmaker early in Barkley; and, he gets hurt a second year in a row.
If in year 3 he has a full camp in the same offensive system; if Jones gets a true #1 WR via UFA; if we draft playmakers; and, if the OL truly gels as I believe it will, we will know by literally mid-season if we have a true #1 QB that can win you the SB.
I believe Jones is "good enough" if he has "enough" talent around him to WIN with consistently. We lack top end offensive talent and we miss both a solid ER and 2nd CB to get to the next level defensively.
-2019 he was the #2 QB thru camp behind Eli
-2019 he takes over and outside of his fumbles he is good for a rookie by any standard
-2020 Covid hits. A new offense is installed. No real training camp to build on, no pre-season games
-2020 his OL is again terrible for the majority of the season; he loses his only playmaker early in Barkley; and, he gets hurt a second year in a row.
If in year 3 he has a full camp in the same offensive system; if Jones gets a true #1 WR via UFA; if we draft playmakers; and, if the OL truly gels as I believe it will, we will know by literally mid-season if we have a true #1 QB that can win you the SB.
I believe Jones is "good enough" if he has "enough" talent around him to WIN with consistently. We lack top end offensive talent and we miss both a solid ER and 2nd CB to get to the next level defensively.
He’s going to get another shot, and fingers crossed you’re right, but your timeline leaves out his 3 years at Duke, when despite working with pre-eminent QB whisperer Cutliffe, he was plagued by fumbles and didn’t light the world on fire either (like most every other elite QB did in college — see, for example, Trey Lance, who in his one full season as a raw 18 year old, had 42 TDs, ran for 1,100 yards, and get this ... had zero turnovers ... that’s right, his line is 42-0). Through 60 games Jones has 80 turnovers, which is obviously one of the reasons why he wasn’t looked at as an elite prospect.
“At some point, you are what your record says you are” has to come into play here at some point. Stats and a winning record do matter at some point. Hope you guys are right about Jones, because with the Giants inertia and inability to look outside of their classic pocket passer/Eli model, he’ll of course be behind center week 1.
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In comment 15131316 Zeke's Alibi said:
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year, but I'm confident he makes the jump as a 3rd year QB in the second year of the offense. I also think we see a different offensive playcall set once we get Saquon back. His presense will help the pass blocking, can't just tee off when you need to account for him. Garrett has had TWO receivers in top 10 ypc practically every year he was in Dallas I've been told, where was that this year? Sidelined due to personnel limitations.
Your "confidence" that he will emerge with the "right scheme" isn't enough evidence. Sorry. The QB should make the scheme work. It shouldn't be the scheme that makes the QB work. This kid doesn't have it. We see what he is. Sure, put the perfect team around him, and they'll win. But that's not sustainable.
In the NFL the bet you want to make is to get an elite QB. If you don't have an elite QB you need all the systems to be great: the pass rush, the secondary, the run D, the O-line. If you don't have an elite QB then you need a giant parlay bet to come through. Is that what you want to root for?
Good post. And it's going to take a very deft hand, or an inordinate amount of luck, to build that team with all of the "systems" you cite.
or it will take an unlikely stroke of luck. I don't think folks are thinking this through. You can't build a consistent winner in this league with even a top 15-20 QB. It is probably hard with the #12 QB. If you don't have a star QB you should always be looking for one. The Giants must evaluate Trey Lance. If they decide he doesn't have the stuff to be elite - ok I can live with that. But just to roll into the season with DJ without considering other options is stupid.
Jones did much of the same shit in 2019 that Herbert did in 2020. Ok Herbert had better numbers but not SO much better that he’s completely exalted around here while Jones is considered total crap. Think about that for a second. How can Herbert be fool proof lock stock perfect while jones oh my god he’s trash. Wtf???
You have a guy in Herbert who threw for about 1000 more and added about 10 more tds while playing 3-4 more games than jones did in year 1. Ok. Cool. He’s a nice looking player. I’ll give you that. He also had better wrs I think that’s fair. And despite the ekeler injury had him about the same amount of time jones has Barkley and he had some talented rb talent behind ekeler. He also had hunter Henry who many here said is so much better than Engram. We know the chargers wrs are a lot better than ours.
Somehow Herbert is can’t miss but the giants are fools for sticking with jones. Ok then.
And if herBert, while playing for a new HC in 2021 sees his numbers dip but maybe wins a game or two more? Will you then kill SD for sticking with him? I’m sure you’d exhibit the same restraint.....
Jones and Herbert aren't in the same league. One's a guy you build around, the other is a guy you rationalize because he threw 11 TDs in a season.
Another question, if you could bet on any quarterback in the NFL to win a Super Bowl, say within the next five years, would you put your money on Jones? What would the odds look like for that bet against the other NFL QBs? Jones would have to be the longest of long shots. There’s guys in college that you’d put better odds on.
Jones and Herbert aren't in the same league. One's a guy you build around, the other is a guy you rationalize because he threw 11 TDs in a season.
Every time I make a point you and some others generalize to deflect the point. Enjoy your weekend. I’m out.
Qbs are either great or bad. No middle ground. No developmental phases. No highs and lows. No mitigating factors. And it’s always linear.
Fucking wack jobs. You win.
So if Herbert takes a step down next year I guess we will bury him too.
I’m done don’t waste you’re time as I won’t read anymore. I’ll go visit some other thread. Hopefully someone saves this one like the old Eli one from 2009.
I just think it’s odd that there’s such a fine line between an amazingly good young qb (your words not mine) in Herbert and the comically dumb giants (not mine) for moving forward with jones.
We shall see. Maybe judge wants a new qb anyway. I doubt it though. And I think jones will be fine next year because I think he turned a corner over his last 5-6 starts this season. With another year under this staff and some more offensive seasoning in place jones will be fine.
Peace.
Herbert was 6-9 as a rookie.
His productivity stats:
4436 pass yards / 31 TDs / 10 INTs / 234 rush yards / 5 TDs
His efficiency stats:
YPA 7.3 / TD% 5.2 / Int% 1.7 / FMB% .01
Jones was 3-9.
His productivity stats:
3027 pass yards/ 24 TDs/ 12 INTs/ 279 rush yards/ 2 TDs
His efficiency stats:
YPA 6.6/ TD% 5.2/ INT% 2.6/ FMB% .03
This is just another clickbait article without any facts to support whether the Giants are making a Jones decision.
Another slow sports news day
So you’re positive or negative view on Jones is a twofer.
So you’re positive or negative view on Jones is a twofer.
I’m not sure we can know what Judge really thinks of Jones. His comments strike me as mostly coach speak which you’d expect (and want) from any good head coach. It’s not like Judge would ever say publicly if he has doubts about Jones. Logically, why would Judge give a hoot about Jones? He didn’t draft him, he hasn’t won with him and remember too that Judge spent a lot of time around Tawmy GOAT. Now maybe Judge thinks Jones is another Ugg model, but maybe also he sees the delta between DJ8 and a proven champ. I doubt Judge is committed to much beyond winning football games.
So you’re positive or negative view on Jones is a twofer.
That sentiment goes too far. Judge has made enough positive comments that he has Jones’ back. But don’t imagine that intertwining is anything more than for 2021 if Jones doesn’t step up.