Quote:
IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
Duh...isn't that exactly what the article says?
RE: RE: The problem with the Jones decision is simple.
Suppose he turns into an OK QB. Is he going to be okay with an OK contract? (say, $15-20 million/year).
That is the main factor besides his performance, because the Giants will pay him at the upper levels of scale unless he crashes and burns.
Which is why it was so disheartening to see Gettleman keep his job. Jones's biggest rabbi is still in the building; if He went and Judge were keen to move on we might be looking at making the move this off-season. Shit, if Gettleman weren't in the building last year maybe we draft Herbert.
Judge needs to be the guy making the call. And with Gettleman and Garrett (both chosen by Mara, not Judge) still in the building the potential for a difference of opinions (and Gettleman having the final say) is very real.
If the Giants give him upper scale money based on the production we are seeing now that will be a complete disgrace. I can only hope the Giants will evaluate him without any bias after the third season.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
... to be a top 5 or 6 QB? Best case scenario he’s in the 10-15 range, a guy you can compete with if you gather enough weapons around him. Why not keep looking for an Allen or a Herbert? Why settle for mediocrity?
RE: Is there anyone who thinks he has a ceiling ...
... to be a top 5 or 6 QB? Best case scenario he’s in the 10-15 range, a guy you can compete with if you gather enough weapons around him. Why not keep looking for an Allen or a Herbert? Why settle for mediocrity?
If the Giants give him upper scale money based on the production we are seeing now that will be a complete disgrace. I can only hope the Giants will evaluate him without any bias after the third season.
He still needs to earn his next contract, but look at what the fifth year option will cost and then go up from there on what a typical second contract will cost.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
had no weapons this year. As the article indicates, we need another year to determine whether he should be the QB of the Giants. But impatience has always been the dominant characteristic of BBI patrons.
I'm also not convinced his ceiling is "advanced game manager." There have been times when he has played at an extremely high level.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
I don't buy that. Judge had other options than the Giants.
Also, can it be proven that Garrett was mandated by Mara?
yeah, I think DJ has a skillset to be a top 10 NFL QB. Everyone here is afraid to say it but yes I do.
Fair enough Ryan. You can win a SB I guess without an elite top 5 of 6 guy (see the Foles run), but looking at the 4 monsters left in the final 4 this year, it’s a much tougher fight.
My major concern is that DJ is not really a developmental QB, that’s he had 4 years of Cutliffe (and a great work ethic), but still has gaps in processing the field and pocket presence. And it’d kill me if, for example, the Steelers moved up and grabbed Lance and they hit it big. Hope the Giants scout the hell out of Lance.
yeah, I think DJ has a skillset to be a top 10 NFL QB. Everyone here is afraid to say it but yes I do.
Fair enough Ryan. You can win a SB I guess without an elite top 5 of 6 guy (see the Foles run), but looking at the 4 monsters left in the final 4 this year, it’s a much tougher fight.
My major concern is that DJ is not really a developmental QB, that’s he had 4 years of Cutliffe (and a great work ethic), but still has gaps in processing the field and pocket presence. And it’d kill me if, for example, the Steelers moved up and grabbed Lance and they hit it big. Hope the Giants scout the hell out of Lance.
We can argue this all day, but Brady is no longer a top 5 QB. He went to a loaded situation because he's no dummy, but everyone is lapping this hook line and sinker. It was all Brady those years and not Belichik! This Bucs team is arguable the most talented in the league, they just needed a QB with better decision making. I've watched the Bucs a ton the last five years and Jameis singlehandedly would sink them on weekly basis and why Arians hated him.
I just heard Peter King say this is Bradys second best year and I almost spit my coffee out. Some guys literally can't see past stats.
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
that any of the other QBs listed, especially Herbert would have fared any better then Jones has in the exact same circumstances.
In fact, given the dubious IQ's of a few of those QBs, they'd probably have made those circumstances worse.
But its BBI and there's more ground that needs beating with dead horses.
The funniest part to me is that the Chargers are getting all this credit for drafting Herbert and "seeing it" with him. Yet who they drafted has been confirmed that it was whoever the Dolphins didn't. Yet Tua struggled this year and that makes sense considering the talent surrounding both QBs. And thats the way NFL teams look at it, nobody plans on drafting an elite QB like Mahomes or possibly Allen, they draft a guy they can surround with talent that they can win with. Just look at Brady this year. All that team needed was a solid QB, which Brady still is at this point of his career.
RE: RE: This is a pretty good article spelling out a lot what I believe is the
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
"if we are OK with a JAG we are accepting mediocrity"
"hoping that someone will become something they are not"
It's called developing a quarterback. Just because Jones isn't a star right now doesn't mean he won't be in the future. It doesn't mean he will be. But your ability to act like he can't get better is infuriating, you're the same as Terps when it comes to this shit
Look, we get it - you don't watch any NFL games other than the Giants. But NFL QBs are winning the MVP award in their second season. They're establishing themselves as franchise cornerstones by their second season. They are proving they belong by their second season.
This antiquated QB development timeline that Giants fans cling to as a justification for Jones's slow growth at the most pivotal position in sports is just not aligned with how the NFL operates anymore.
To his credit (and I am not one to give DG credit), we are building a roster that actually has a chance to compete but doing so thus far in spite of our QB rather than because of him. A year from now, we'll probably be an 8-8 team with another season of question marks from Jones, and we'll be even farther away from the sort of prospect that can be a franchise QB. And we'll settle in for a half-decade of bouncing between 7-9 and 9-7 with draft picks that land between the 14th and 20th selection. Eventually, we'll have to either bottom out again or empty the cupboard for a QB prospect.
I'll go on record right now and say that we'll just trot on the treadmill until Arch Manning is that prospect that we finally go all-in for, and then we'll pull the trigger like we did for his uncle - Jones or whatever other fungible journeyman placeholder is available will man the position until then. This franchise is predictable enough to make that claim this far in advance.
Funny you say that because I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants tread water until Arch Manning comes out and sell the farm for him.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
You repeatedly sing the praises of every single member of the team, and then you act like it's some sort of major accomplishment for a prospect to have won you over. Of course they won you over, simply by wearing blue you have them in the top 10 players at their position.
But his opinion isn’t any better than anyone else’s. He could be right, he could be wrong. I find anyone making any definitive pronouncements about Jones to be far more suspect than Jones himself. Yes, it’s time for Jones to show he is improving. It’s also time for the Giants to provide him even below average NFL talent (as opposed to crap NFL talent) on the offense. Let’s see him with something more than what we’ve seen so far and then make pronouncements that might actually have some basis.
Very true, but shouldn't that also apply to Jeremiah's comments about DJ being a top-5 QB? At this point, there is much more evidence that he is a middle of the road QB than a pro bowler.
As I've said, you can win a SB with a mid-tier guy, you obviously need a more well-rounded team than, say, the 2011 Giants, which had a terrible running game and defense, but the QB cannot turn the ball over (although, in DJ's defense, he was much better with that in the 2nd half).
yeah, I think DJ has a skillset to be a top 10 NFL QB. Everyone here is afraid to say it but yes I do.
Fair enough Ryan. You can win a SB I guess without an elite top 5 of 6 guy (see the Foles run), but looking at the 4 monsters left in the final 4 this year, it’s a much tougher fight.
My major concern is that DJ is not really a developmental QB, that’s he had 4 years of Cutliffe (and a great work ethic), but still has gaps in processing the field and pocket presence. And it’d kill me if, for example, the Steelers moved up and grabbed Lance and they hit it big. Hope the Giants scout the hell out of Lance.
We can argue this all day, but Brady is no longer a top 5 QB. He went to a loaded situation because he's no dummy, but everyone is lapping this hook line and sinker. It was all Brady those years and not Belichik! This Bucs team is arguable the most talented in the league, they just needed a QB with better decision making. I've watched the Bucs a ton the last five years and Jameis singlehandedly would sink them on weekly basis and why Arians hated him.
I just heard Peter King say this is Bradys second best year and I almost spit my coffee out. Some guys literally can't see past stats.
The flip side of that though, Zeke, is Tuna’s famous line about how at some point, you are what your record says you are, right? We have five seasons of work to judge Jones on. What does his record say about him? It says 80 plus turnovers in 60 games and a losing record. Fingers crossed he develops in 2021, hope he gets his “Diggs” to work with, and turns things around.
Daniel Jones comp by many scouts coming out of college
Daniel Jones projects as a potential starter, but he's not going to be a universal prospect. Jones needs to work in an offense that is predicated on dispersing the football quickly out of his hands and allows for a lot of rhythm work and downfield routes. Jones' work under pressure is also of concern, so he'll need to work behind an established, effective offensive line if he's going to reach his ceiling, which projects as an average starting quarterback in the NFL. Scheme dependent but starter qualities.
I couldn't agree more with both the comp and report, which is why the Giants need to continue to improve the OL. It's gotten better, but still average at best.
with better weapons and OL play to support him. But, is he the QB to chase championships is the key point. With our minds over our hearts, do we envision him hoisting a Lombardi ...
Not one person should say yes to that after last season. And I'm not anti Jones by any means. But the stats are the stats.
"if we are OK with a JAG we are accepting mediocrity"
"hoping that someone will become something they are not"
It's called developing a quarterback. Just because Jones isn't a star right now doesn't mean he won't be in the future. It doesn't mean he will be. But your ability to act like he can't get better is infuriating, you're the same as Terps when it comes to this shit
Look, we get it - you don't watch any NFL games other than the Giants. But NFL QBs are winning the MVP award in their second season. They're establishing themselves as franchise cornerstones by their second season. They are proving they belong by their second season.
This antiquated QB development timeline that Giants fans cling to as a justification for Jones's slow growth at the most pivotal position in sports is just not aligned with how the NFL operates anymore.
To his credit (and I am not one to give DG credit), we are building a roster that actually has a chance to compete but doing so thus far in spite of our QB rather than because of him. A year from now, we'll probably be an 8-8 team with another season of question marks from Jones, and we'll be even farther away from the sort of prospect that can be a franchise QB. And we'll settle in for a half-decade of bouncing between 7-9 and 9-7 with draft picks that land between the 14th and 20th selection. Eventually, we'll have to either bottom out again or empty the cupboard for a QB prospect.
I'll go on record right now and say that we'll just trot on the treadmill until Arch Manning is that prospect that we finally go all-in for, and then we'll pull the trigger like we did for his uncle - Jones or whatever other fungible journeyman placeholder is available will man the position until then. This franchise is predictable enough to make that claim this far in advance.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
I don't have confirmation. I also don't have confirmation that Judge picked Garrett, so that would also be supposition.
We know that Garrett is right with the Maras. We know they were going to consider him for the head coach job. We know the Giants' offense was pathetic, yet Gettleman said they're antsy about the prospect of losing Garrett.
My supposition is that Garrett was Mara's pick. I suppose I could be wrong. What do you think?
RE: Daniel Jones comp by many scouts coming out of college
Daniel Jones projects as a potential starter, but he's not going to be a universal prospect. Jones needs to work in an offense that is predicated on dispersing the football quickly out of his hands and allows for a lot of rhythm work and downfield routes. Jones' work under pressure is also of concern, so he'll need to work behind an established, effective offensive line if he's going to reach his ceiling, which projects as an average starting quarterback in the NFL. Scheme dependent but starter qualities.
I couldn't agree more with both the comp and report, which is why the Giants need to continue to improve the OL. It's gotten better, but still average at best.
Exactly... In Shurmurs system, with an injured Saquon. Daniel Jones threw for 24 touchdowns. He led all rookies in TD passes and was 4th all-time in TD passes as a rookie. That system, which by the way is the same as Kevin Stephanski's (Cleveland) played more to his strengths than Garrets's system. In addition, lets be honest, without Saquon on the field, the Giants skills Unit is horrible. I've seen several post listing qb's taken in the last 3-4 years who are showing promise.
Kyler Murray
Josh Allen
Baker
Lamar Jackson
Mahomes
Watson
each one of those QB's have #1 WR talent, in fact, Cleveland, Buffalo, and Arizona have #2 WR's that would be #1's on the Giants.
DJ is going to get a 3rd season to prove himself. He'll need help from the Scheme and an upgrade in talent around him.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
I don't have confirmation. I also don't have confirmation that Judge picked Garrett, so that would also be supposition.
We know that Garrett is right with the Maras. We know they were going to consider him for the head coach job. We know the Giants' offense was pathetic, yet Gettleman said they're antsy about the prospect of losing Garrett.
My supposition is that Garrett was Mara's pick. I suppose I could be wrong. What do you think?
Got it. You worded it above in a previous post like it was fact. Didn't know if I missed a report or something. Your opinion, understood.
Garrett shouldn't be a big deal. Mara mandating Garrett is no good. Truth be told, if Garrett was an order by Mara and Judge didn't stand up to him and defend his right to pick staff as coach then nothing with change and that is just as much on Judge.
I like some of Jones' physical tools better than Tannehill. He can pass with touch and accuracy, he can make some difficult throws, he can heat up and take a game over with his legs.
But, he also demonstrates some of the poorest pocket awareness, ball security, and feel for the game I've seen in recent years from a top 10 draft pick. He's got to improve his read and recognition, feel for the pass rush including climbing the pocket, and I do think his throwing motion needs to be shortened. Suspect his release would time below average, and he will bird-dog receivers, all of which helps defenders find his eyes and close on the pass.
2021 is a crucial year for Jones, and for the Giants progress under DG. The roster probably needs approximately 8 starter caliber upgrades. There's a lot to sort out and develop.
RE: RE: Daniel Jones comp by many scouts coming out of college
Daniel Jones projects as a potential starter, but he's not going to be a universal prospect. Jones needs to work in an offense that is predicated on dispersing the football quickly out of his hands and allows for a lot of rhythm work and downfield routes. Jones' work under pressure is also of concern, so he'll need to work behind an established, effective offensive line if he's going to reach his ceiling, which projects as an average starting quarterback in the NFL. Scheme dependent but starter qualities.
I couldn't agree more with both the comp and report, which is why the Giants need to continue to improve the OL. It's gotten better, but still average at best.
Exactly... In Shurmurs system, with an injured Saquon. Daniel Jones threw for 24 touchdowns. He led all rookies in TD passes and was 4th all-time in TD passes as a rookie. That system, which by the way is the same as Kevin Stephanski's (Cleveland) played more to his strengths than Garrets's system. In addition, lets be honest, without Saquon on the field, the Giants skills Unit is horrible. I've seen several post listing qb's taken in the last 3-4 years who are showing promise.
Kyler Murray
Josh Allen
Baker
Lamar Jackson
Mahomes
Watson
each one of those QB's have #1 WR talent, in fact, Cleveland, Buffalo, and Arizona have #2 WR's that would be #1's on the Giants.
DJ is going to get a 3rd season to prove himself. He'll need help from the Scheme and an upgrade in talent around him.
That’s a great post that got me thinking. Hope we do get Jones some real weapons and he thrives.
you guys act like Jones was terrible over his last 5-6 starts. He wasn't. This isn't Dave BRown or GEno Smith or some guy who didn't show squat. Jones did show things once the guy had more than 20 practices under his belt with this staff.
And please stop with this horse shit that Jones isn't here if he isn't a first round pick. First off, that's not even true. Second, pedigree matters. The guy was a first round pick because he has abilities that 5th rounders don't usually possess. He played in a tougher conference than some guy in a lower division.
Of course his draft status matters. But so does his play.
You guys act like the Giants have been too loyal over the last 10 years. They have shed more blood than any other franchise. They have cut more bodies than I can even count.
It's ok to just be uncertain and let things play out. Not every decision is a referendum on the Giants way.
i'd be killing Jones right now and I suspect the Giants would be saying all the right things but acting differently behind the scenes. If Jones was still turning it over 1-2 times a game and making critical errors at critical junctures things would likely unfold in a different manner come April, or at the least, a vet FA with some starting potential would be coming in to push.
He did improve. In year one with a new staff much in the same way Eli did improve in his year one with the same first year staff. If you want to hold 2019 against Jones and claim that Jones shouldn't have experienced growing pains in 2020, have at it, but you're going to throw the QB out based on the logic? That too is risky.
What do you think? Do you have a thought, or are you only interested in commenting on mine?
I would echo what crick said.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
to rebuild and invest in OL. They did that and it finally seems that its going in the right direction, but now you want immediate results and start bringing up 2018 again. Enough with 2018, it happened, its over with, mistakes were made, jesus christ. Not every mistake is some franchise crippling thing that you can never come back from. We took a hell of an elite talent at 2, he tore his knee this year. We took our QB in 2019, he's been inconsistent his first 2 seasons, one of them without his best player and hardly any weapons at WR for both seasons.
Stay the course, keep building. If Daniel Jones still somehow isn't getting it done in 2021, yeah, we can probably say he isn't the guy. But, because the investment was made, they have conviction about him, he's shown signs of being a true franchise QB, you stick with him. He's 23 years old. He had 2 turnovers in his last 6 games of this season, went 4-2 in the final 6 games, with basically zero weapons on offense. Gee I wonder what will happen if we give him some extra help and his best player back.
you guys act like Jones was terrible over his last 5-6 starts. He wasn't. This isn't Dave BRown or GEno Smith or some guy who didn't show squat. Jones did show things once the guy had more than 20 practices under his belt with this staff.
And please stop with this horse shit that Jones isn't here if he isn't a first round pick. First off, that's not even true. Second, pedigree matters. The guy was a first round pick because he has abilities that 5th rounders don't usually possess. He played in a tougher conference than some guy in a lower division.
Of course his draft status matters. But so does his play.
You guys act like the Giants have been too loyal over the last 10 years. They have shed more blood than any other franchise. They have cut more bodies than I can even count.
It's ok to just be uncertain and let things play out. Not every decision is a referendum on the Giants way.
DJM Respectfully. Double digit losses in 6 of the last 7 seasons. We are not satisfied with that. Some of us get upset and make some ridiculous takes. Ignore those and focus on the why. We have been dismal and want better. That's it really, it is the underlying cause for all the angst on this board there really isn't a legitimate defense. Factually, it has not been good enough. It isn't even mediocre. It has been awful.
Jones needs to show something next year. I don't want to sign the next Kirk Cousins to a contract like Russell Wilson's. Show me next year. No more excuses.
about stats and other QB's touchdowns. "Daniel Jones needs 30 TDs in order to be considered a franchise QB." Nope. Not even close to being true. A good defense trumps a good offense any day of the week in the playoffs, and late in the season. He needs to become a really good quarterback, make awesome decisions, and help the TEAM become a championship contender. He needs to stop fumbling. He doesn't need to do it by himself, he doesn't need to put up 37 and 7. He needs to just be really good. Can he be great? Yeah, i think he can be. Hardly any quarterbacks in the history of the fucking league are "great" by the time they are 23, unless your name is Mahomes.
about stats and other QB's touchdowns. "Daniel Jones needs 30 TDs in order to be considered a franchise QB." Nope. Not even close to being true. A good defense trumps a good offense any day of the week in the playoffs, and late in the season. He needs to become a really good quarterback, make awesome decisions, and help the TEAM become a championship contender. He needs to stop fumbling. He doesn't need to do it by himself, he doesn't need to put up 37 and 7. He needs to just be really good. Can he be great? Yeah, i think he can be. Hardly any quarterbacks in the history of the fucking league are "great" by the time they are 23, unless your name is Mahomes.
about stats and other QB's touchdowns. "Daniel Jones needs 30 TDs in order to be considered a franchise QB." Nope. Not even close to being true. A good defense trumps a good offense any day of the week in the playoffs, and late in the season. He needs to become a really good quarterback, make awesome decisions, and help the TEAM become a championship contender. He needs to stop fumbling. He doesn't need to do it by himself, he doesn't need to put up 37 and 7. He needs to just be really good. Can he be great? Yeah, i think he can be. Hardly any quarterbacks in the history of the fucking league are "great" by the time they are 23, unless your name is Mahomes.
I am not looking for stats. I am looking for a number of games where he is the REASON we won, not the reason we didn't lose. You understand what I mean?
if he's the giants starting QB for the Giants he will likely get more than that. And he won't be worth it unless he is top-8.
That is the main factor besides his performance, because the Giants will pay him at the upper levels of scale unless he crashes and burns.
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IMO, Jones has one more season to PROVE he's the franchise QB we need him to be or it's time to cut ties and move on. Enough of the beating around the bush and hoping that someone will become what they're not. Show me results or GTFO.
Duh...isn't that exactly what the article says?
Quote:
Suppose he turns into an OK QB. Is he going to be okay with an OK contract? (say, $15-20 million/year).
That is the main factor besides his performance, because the Giants will pay him at the upper levels of scale unless he crashes and burns.
And then everybody will be wondering why they can't shop in free agency for more help.
Quote:
Suppose he turns into an OK QB. Is he going to be okay with an OK contract? (say, $15-20 million/year).
That is the main factor besides his performance, because the Giants will pay him at the upper levels of scale unless he crashes and burns.
Which is why it was so disheartening to see Gettleman keep his job. Jones's biggest rabbi is still in the building; if He went and Judge were keen to move on we might be looking at making the move this off-season. Shit, if Gettleman weren't in the building last year maybe we draft Herbert.
Judge needs to be the guy making the call. And with Gettleman and Garrett (both chosen by Mara, not Judge) still in the building the potential for a difference of opinions (and Gettleman having the final say) is very real.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
This.
He still needs to earn his next contract, but look at what the fifth year option will cost and then go up from there on what a typical second contract will cost.
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
I'm also not convinced his ceiling is "advanced game manager." There have been times when he has played at an extremely high level.
Quote:
Garrett was mandated by Mara?
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
I don't buy that. Judge had other options than the Giants.
Also, can it be proven that Garrett was mandated by Mara?
Fair enough Ryan. You can win a SB I guess without an elite top 5 of 6 guy (see the Foles run), but looking at the 4 monsters left in the final 4 this year, it’s a much tougher fight.
My major concern is that DJ is not really a developmental QB, that’s he had 4 years of Cutliffe (and a great work ethic), but still has gaps in processing the field and pocket presence. And it’d kill me if, for example, the Steelers moved up and grabbed Lance and they hit it big. Hope the Giants scout the hell out of Lance.
In fact, given the dubious IQ's of a few of those QBs, they'd probably have made those circumstances worse.
But its BBI and there's more ground that needs beating with dead horses.
Here's a fun credibility challenge...
Ryan - name 5 players on the Giants roster right now that you do NOT believe could be top 10 in the league at their respective positions.
Quote:
yeah, I think DJ has a skillset to be a top 10 NFL QB. Everyone here is afraid to say it but yes I do.
Fair enough Ryan. You can win a SB I guess without an elite top 5 of 6 guy (see the Foles run), but looking at the 4 monsters left in the final 4 this year, it’s a much tougher fight.
My major concern is that DJ is not really a developmental QB, that’s he had 4 years of Cutliffe (and a great work ethic), but still has gaps in processing the field and pocket presence. And it’d kill me if, for example, the Steelers moved up and grabbed Lance and they hit it big. Hope the Giants scout the hell out of Lance.
We can argue this all day, but Brady is no longer a top 5 QB. He went to a loaded situation because he's no dummy, but everyone is lapping this hook line and sinker. It was all Brady those years and not Belichik! This Bucs team is arguable the most talented in the league, they just needed a QB with better decision making. I've watched the Bucs a ton the last five years and Jameis singlehandedly would sink them on weekly basis and why Arians hated him.
I just heard Peter King say this is Bradys second best year and I almost spit my coffee out. Some guys literally can't see past stats.
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
I regard to #2,......was Eli?
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Garrett was mandated by Mara?
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
In fact, given the dubious IQ's of a few of those QBs, they'd probably have made those circumstances worse.
But its BBI and there's more ground that needs beating with dead horses.
The funniest part to me is that the Chargers are getting all this credit for drafting Herbert and "seeing it" with him. Yet who they drafted has been confirmed that it was whoever the Dolphins didn't. Yet Tua struggled this year and that makes sense considering the talent surrounding both QBs. And thats the way NFL teams look at it, nobody plans on drafting an elite QB like Mahomes or possibly Allen, they draft a guy they can surround with talent that they can win with. Just look at Brady this year. All that team needed was a solid QB, which Brady still is at this point of his career.
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case...
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
I regard to #2,......was Eli?
I think so.
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"if we are OK with a JAG we are accepting mediocrity"
"hoping that someone will become something they are not"
It's called developing a quarterback. Just because Jones isn't a star right now doesn't mean he won't be in the future. It doesn't mean he will be. But your ability to act like he can't get better is infuriating, you're the same as Terps when it comes to this shit
Look, we get it - you don't watch any NFL games other than the Giants. But NFL QBs are winning the MVP award in their second season. They're establishing themselves as franchise cornerstones by their second season. They are proving they belong by their second season.
This antiquated QB development timeline that Giants fans cling to as a justification for Jones's slow growth at the most pivotal position in sports is just not aligned with how the NFL operates anymore.
To his credit (and I am not one to give DG credit), we are building a roster that actually has a chance to compete but doing so thus far in spite of our QB rather than because of him. A year from now, we'll probably be an 8-8 team with another season of question marks from Jones, and we'll be even farther away from the sort of prospect that can be a franchise QB. And we'll settle in for a half-decade of bouncing between 7-9 and 9-7 with draft picks that land between the 14th and 20th selection. Eventually, we'll have to either bottom out again or empty the cupboard for a QB prospect.
I'll go on record right now and say that we'll just trot on the treadmill until Arch Manning is that prospect that we finally go all-in for, and then we'll pull the trigger like we did for his uncle - Jones or whatever other fungible journeyman placeholder is available will man the position until then. This franchise is predictable enough to make that claim this far in advance.
Funny you say that because I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants tread water until Arch Manning comes out and sell the farm for him.
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In comment 15130913 crick n NC said:
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Garrett was mandated by Mara?
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
Hmmm...wording sounds familiar.
Am I?
You repeatedly sing the praises of every single member of the team, and then you act like it's some sort of major accomplishment for a prospect to have won you over. Of course they won you over, simply by wearing blue you have them in the top 10 players at their position.
Which is why you couldn't answer the question.
Very true, but shouldn't that also apply to Jeremiah's comments about DJ being a top-5 QB? At this point, there is much more evidence that he is a middle of the road QB than a pro bowler.
As I've said, you can win a SB with a mid-tier guy, you obviously need a more well-rounded team than, say, the 2011 Giants, which had a terrible running game and defense, but the QB cannot turn the ball over (although, in DJ's defense, he was much better with that in the 2nd half).
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In comment 15130928 ryanmkeane said:
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yeah, I think DJ has a skillset to be a top 10 NFL QB. Everyone here is afraid to say it but yes I do.
Fair enough Ryan. You can win a SB I guess without an elite top 5 of 6 guy (see the Foles run), but looking at the 4 monsters left in the final 4 this year, it’s a much tougher fight.
My major concern is that DJ is not really a developmental QB, that’s he had 4 years of Cutliffe (and a great work ethic), but still has gaps in processing the field and pocket presence. And it’d kill me if, for example, the Steelers moved up and grabbed Lance and they hit it big. Hope the Giants scout the hell out of Lance.
We can argue this all day, but Brady is no longer a top 5 QB. He went to a loaded situation because he's no dummy, but everyone is lapping this hook line and sinker. It was all Brady those years and not Belichik! This Bucs team is arguable the most talented in the league, they just needed a QB with better decision making. I've watched the Bucs a ton the last five years and Jameis singlehandedly would sink them on weekly basis and why Arians hated him.
I just heard Peter King say this is Bradys second best year and I almost spit my coffee out. Some guys literally can't see past stats.
The flip side of that though, Zeke, is Tuna’s famous line about how at some point, you are what your record says you are, right? We have five seasons of work to judge Jones on. What does his record say about him? It says 80 plus turnovers in 60 games and a losing record. Fingers crossed he develops in 2021, hope he gets his “Diggs” to work with, and turns things around.
Below was his scouting report...
Daniel Jones projects as a potential starter, but he's not going to be a universal prospect. Jones needs to work in an offense that is predicated on dispersing the football quickly out of his hands and allows for a lot of rhythm work and downfield routes. Jones' work under pressure is also of concern, so he'll need to work behind an established, effective offensive line if he's going to reach his ceiling, which projects as an average starting quarterback in the NFL. Scheme dependent but starter qualities.
I couldn't agree more with both the comp and report, which is why the Giants need to continue to improve the OL. It's gotten better, but still average at best.
Not one person should say yes to that after last season. And I'm not anti Jones by any means. But the stats are the stats.
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"if we are OK with a JAG we are accepting mediocrity"
"hoping that someone will become something they are not"
It's called developing a quarterback. Just because Jones isn't a star right now doesn't mean he won't be in the future. It doesn't mean he will be. But your ability to act like he can't get better is infuriating, you're the same as Terps when it comes to this shit
Look, we get it - you don't watch any NFL games other than the Giants. But NFL QBs are winning the MVP award in their second season. They're establishing themselves as franchise cornerstones by their second season. They are proving they belong by their second season.
This antiquated QB development timeline that Giants fans cling to as a justification for Jones's slow growth at the most pivotal position in sports is just not aligned with how the NFL operates anymore.
To his credit (and I am not one to give DG credit), we are building a roster that actually has a chance to compete but doing so thus far in spite of our QB rather than because of him. A year from now, we'll probably be an 8-8 team with another season of question marks from Jones, and we'll be even farther away from the sort of prospect that can be a franchise QB. And we'll settle in for a half-decade of bouncing between 7-9 and 9-7 with draft picks that land between the 14th and 20th selection. Eventually, we'll have to either bottom out again or empty the cupboard for a QB prospect.
I'll go on record right now and say that we'll just trot on the treadmill until Arch Manning is that prospect that we finally go all-in for, and then we'll pull the trigger like we did for his uncle - Jones or whatever other fungible journeyman placeholder is available will man the position until then. This franchise is predictable enough to make that claim this far in advance.
Well said. And unfortunately I agree 100%.
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In comment 15130913 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Garrett was mandated by Mara?
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
I don't have confirmation. I also don't have confirmation that Judge picked Garrett, so that would also be supposition.
We know that Garrett is right with the Maras. We know they were going to consider him for the head coach job. We know the Giants' offense was pathetic, yet Gettleman said they're antsy about the prospect of losing Garrett.
My supposition is that Garrett was Mara's pick. I suppose I could be wrong. What do you think?
Below was his scouting report...
Daniel Jones projects as a potential starter, but he's not going to be a universal prospect. Jones needs to work in an offense that is predicated on dispersing the football quickly out of his hands and allows for a lot of rhythm work and downfield routes. Jones' work under pressure is also of concern, so he'll need to work behind an established, effective offensive line if he's going to reach his ceiling, which projects as an average starting quarterback in the NFL. Scheme dependent but starter qualities.
I couldn't agree more with both the comp and report, which is why the Giants need to continue to improve the OL. It's gotten better, but still average at best.
Exactly... In Shurmurs system, with an injured Saquon. Daniel Jones threw for 24 touchdowns. He led all rookies in TD passes and was 4th all-time in TD passes as a rookie. That system, which by the way is the same as Kevin Stephanski's (Cleveland) played more to his strengths than Garrets's system. In addition, lets be honest, without Saquon on the field, the Giants skills Unit is horrible. I've seen several post listing qb's taken in the last 3-4 years who are showing promise.
Kyler Murray
Josh Allen
Baker
Lamar Jackson
Mahomes
Watson
each one of those QB's have #1 WR talent, in fact, Cleveland, Buffalo, and Arizona have #2 WR's that would be #1's on the Giants.
DJ is going to get a 3rd season to prove himself. He'll need help from the Scheme and an upgrade in talent around him.
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In comment 15130923 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15130913 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Garrett was mandated by Mara?
I don't understand why guy like Judge would come to an organization that forces hires and players upon him. That makes less sense than stating it is a real possibility that the giants will overpay Jones to me.
Judge had never been a head coach at any level, then an NFL team offers him a head coaching job at age 38. He's not going to be able to tell Mara "no". Maybe Judge will be Nick Saban one day, but this time last year he was a nobody.
That doesn't answer the question. Is there confirmation that Garrett was selected by Mara and him alone? Or are you turning your opinion (which you have a right to) into some sort of fact?
I don't have confirmation. I also don't have confirmation that Judge picked Garrett, so that would also be supposition.
We know that Garrett is right with the Maras. We know they were going to consider him for the head coach job. We know the Giants' offense was pathetic, yet Gettleman said they're antsy about the prospect of losing Garrett.
My supposition is that Garrett was Mara's pick. I suppose I could be wrong. What do you think?
Got it. You worded it above in a previous post like it was fact. Didn't know if I missed a report or something. Your opinion, understood.
I don't "sing the praises of every member of the team." You're just really annoyed constantly that I like the direction that the team is going in.
You may disagree, but you gotta stop this weird obsession. It's getting extremely uncomfortable.
But, he also demonstrates some of the poorest pocket awareness, ball security, and feel for the game I've seen in recent years from a top 10 draft pick. He's got to improve his read and recognition, feel for the pass rush including climbing the pocket, and I do think his throwing motion needs to be shortened. Suspect his release would time below average, and he will bird-dog receivers, all of which helps defenders find his eyes and close on the pass.
2021 is a crucial year for Jones, and for the Giants progress under DG. The roster probably needs approximately 8 starter caliber upgrades. There's a lot to sort out and develop.
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was Ryan Tannehill.
Below was his scouting report...
Daniel Jones projects as a potential starter, but he's not going to be a universal prospect. Jones needs to work in an offense that is predicated on dispersing the football quickly out of his hands and allows for a lot of rhythm work and downfield routes. Jones' work under pressure is also of concern, so he'll need to work behind an established, effective offensive line if he's going to reach his ceiling, which projects as an average starting quarterback in the NFL. Scheme dependent but starter qualities.
I couldn't agree more with both the comp and report, which is why the Giants need to continue to improve the OL. It's gotten better, but still average at best.
Exactly... In Shurmurs system, with an injured Saquon. Daniel Jones threw for 24 touchdowns. He led all rookies in TD passes and was 4th all-time in TD passes as a rookie. That system, which by the way is the same as Kevin Stephanski's (Cleveland) played more to his strengths than Garrets's system. In addition, lets be honest, without Saquon on the field, the Giants skills Unit is horrible. I've seen several post listing qb's taken in the last 3-4 years who are showing promise.
Kyler Murray
Josh Allen
Baker
Lamar Jackson
Mahomes
Watson
each one of those QB's have #1 WR talent, in fact, Cleveland, Buffalo, and Arizona have #2 WR's that would be #1's on the Giants.
DJ is going to get a 3rd season to prove himself. He'll need help from the Scheme and an upgrade in talent around him.
That’s a great post that got me thinking. Hope we do get Jones some real weapons and he thrives.
I would echo what crick said.
And please stop with this horse shit that Jones isn't here if he isn't a first round pick. First off, that's not even true. Second, pedigree matters. The guy was a first round pick because he has abilities that 5th rounders don't usually possess. He played in a tougher conference than some guy in a lower division.
Of course his draft status matters. But so does his play.
You guys act like the Giants have been too loyal over the last 10 years. They have shed more blood than any other franchise. They have cut more bodies than I can even count.
It's ok to just be uncertain and let things play out. Not every decision is a referendum on the Giants way.
He did improve. In year one with a new staff much in the same way Eli did improve in his year one with the same first year staff. If you want to hold 2019 against Jones and claim that Jones shouldn't have experienced growing pains in 2020, have at it, but you're going to throw the QB out based on the logic? That too is risky.
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What do you think? Do you have a thought, or are you only interested in commenting on mine?
I would echo what crick said.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
I don't think Judge hired Garrett.
Stay the course, keep building. If Daniel Jones still somehow isn't getting it done in 2021, yeah, we can probably say he isn't the guy. But, because the investment was made, they have conviction about him, he's shown signs of being a true franchise QB, you stick with him. He's 23 years old. He had 2 turnovers in his last 6 games of this season, went 4-2 in the final 6 games, with basically zero weapons on offense. Gee I wonder what will happen if we give him some extra help and his best player back.
And please stop with this horse shit that Jones isn't here if he isn't a first round pick. First off, that's not even true. Second, pedigree matters. The guy was a first round pick because he has abilities that 5th rounders don't usually possess. He played in a tougher conference than some guy in a lower division.
Of course his draft status matters. But so does his play.
You guys act like the Giants have been too loyal over the last 10 years. They have shed more blood than any other franchise. They have cut more bodies than I can even count.
It's ok to just be uncertain and let things play out. Not every decision is a referendum on the Giants way.
Jones needs to show something next year. I don't want to sign the next Kirk Cousins to a contract like Russell Wilson's. Show me next year. No more excuses.
Then the Giants start 1-7 or 2-6 again. Every year.
This post is complete bullshit.
Then the Giants start 1-7 or 2-6 again. Every year.
Oh yeah? When is the last time that happened?
2019: We finished 2-6
2018: We finished 4-4
2017: We finished 2-8
What exactly are you referencing?