What do you think? Do you have a thought, or are you only interested in commenting on mine?
I would echo what crick said.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
I don't think Judge hired Garrett.
You certainly could be right. Would not be a good look by Mara if it came out he forced Garrett on the staff.
that post is bullshit? It's not bullshit, it's true. How many times on BBI does everyone just get soooo enamored with stats? "Justin Herbert had 30 TD this year! WTF!!!" It happens every single week.
Jon, gonna have to disagree with you there. Over the past few months the majority of this site has been saying the same shit over and over again when it comes to Jones. What they don't realize is that you have to just wait this out. If you want rebuilding, you can't be impatient about it. I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways.
What do you think? Do you have a thought, or are you only interested in commenting on mine?
I would echo what crick said.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
I don't think Judge hired Garrett.
You certainly could be right. Would not be a good look by Mara if it came out he forced Garrett on the staff.
I will say, though, your opinion may end up being correct. Mainly because if I was being honest, and somebody asked me who Judge would hire if he had free reign to interview and sign whomever he wanted as his OC, I would think I'd get pretty far down the list before I would have arrived at Garrett.
Giants went 3-3 in the final 6 games of the season
Odd representation from one of the posts above. In the very same paragraph to suggest Daniel Jones shows signs of being a true franchise QB, but also that if he isn't getting it done in 2021 then he isn't the guy.
That is quite a range of outcomes to put out there. Especially when arguing with other posters that think Daniel Jones isn't the guy, only they think so now.
you're not only obsessed with my posts but you have zero clue how to read and interpret things.
I don't "sing the praises of every member of the team." You're just really annoyed constantly that I like the direction that the team is going in.
You may disagree, but you gotta stop this weird obsession. It's getting extremely uncomfortable.
Ryan, whether you realize it or not, most people here think of you as someone who will polish whatever turd the Giants serve you.
I'll gladly put my football knowledge up against yours any day of the week, and I'm pretty confident I can stand toe to toe with you on how to read and interpret things.
Ask around about how you're perceived.
RE: Giants went 3-3 in the final 6 games of the season
Odd representation from one of the posts above. In the very same paragraph to suggest Daniel Jones shows signs of being a true franchise QB, but also that if he isn't getting it done in 2021 then he isn't the guy.
That is quite a range of outcomes to put out there. Especially when arguing with other posters that think Daniel Jones isn't the guy, only they think so now.
chick, if you read my post, i said Daniel Jones went 4-2 in his last 6 games as the starter. That is a fact. He didn't go 3-3. He went 4-2. He didn't play against the Browns.
Odd representation from one of the posts above. In the very same paragraph to suggest Daniel Jones shows signs of being a true franchise QB, but also that if he isn't getting it done in 2021 then he isn't the guy.
That is quite a range of outcomes to put out there. Especially when arguing with other posters that think Daniel Jones isn't the guy, only they think so now.
chick, if you read my post, i said Daniel Jones went 4-2 in his last 6 games as the starter. That is a fact. He didn't go 3-3. He went 4-2. He didn't play against the Browns.
My bad ryanmkeane. You are correct. I read it as the Giants and not specifically Jones.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
I don't think Judge hired Garrett.
Go Terps - I don't know if this can be said so literally. Would suggest that Judge did indeed hire Garrett but with some suggested hints from the existing front office.
It was fairly publicized that one of the things the owners were not very fond of with Shurmur was that they believed he brought in a poor set of assistant coaches. And I think you can also find some media reports that suggested Mara wanted first-time Head Coach Judge to ensure he added some well-experienced coaches to his staff.
It may be semantics to some degree but maybe Judge was given a list of guys to include as part of his interviewing process, and it came to be that Garrett was not only on the list but also his top choice after the interviews were complete.
that post is bullshit? It's not bullshit, it's true. How many times on BBI does everyone just get soooo enamored with stats? "Justin Herbert had 30 TD this year! WTF!!!" It happens every single week.
Scoring points correlates to winning. The Giants were second worst in scoring points and finished 6-10 as a result. It's an achievement by the defense that they won even that many.
I'm going to say this simply and clearly:
In 2020 Daniel Jones was one of the worst quarterbacks in the NFL. He is only starting in 2021 because of his draft status.
Hopefully he shows himself to be something more than the passenger he was in 2020. But I've never been real big on hope and faith...
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Are you claiming that Barkley is worth an incremental 19 passing TDs? Is that what this has come to? You're that incapable of acknowledging that Jones had a shitty year?
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Are you claiming that Barkley is worth an incremental 19 passing TDs? Is that what this has come to? You're that incapable of acknowledging that Jones had a shitty year?
Is that even close to what I said?? I'm saying Jones had a poor group of WR's and no viable red zone targets.
Two can play at the game of being dense. Are you that fucking incapable of acknowledging that?
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
He can get to 30. I think the kid deserves next year. He was always going to get next year. I think you would agree that there is some reason to be concerned based on his play? He is really tough for me to judge. I think he is tough, accurate, fast, has nice touch and throws a very catchable ball. I think he throws as pretty as Aikman. My concerns are ball security, decision making and pocket awareness. If he can fix it, my ceiling might be higher than some(top 10) I don't think top 5. If he can't fix, I think he is an anchor that could flash enough to make us give that second contract but not good enough to win with frequency. I know I am not an expert. Just fan throwing my opinion in with yours and others on a fan site.
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Would think most of Daniel Jones critics would suggest he could throw for more touchdowns (like he did in 2019) but with that would come the price of increased turnover risk.
The QB position requires a necessary level of production with a reasonably limited amount of turnovers. If Jones cannot deliver one without the other then its fair for some fans to think otherwise with him going forward.
so, some of us will have to reconcile our respect for Judge's football acumen with our contempt of Judge's football acumen.
Personally, I feel that if anyone (here) truly and accurately knows who Jones is or ever will be, then we wouldn't be having any arguments about him.
That's why this is a message board and not an encyclopedia. None of us are trading in absolutes.
As it relates to Jones, it's foolish to not even acknowledge that the whole QB development timeline has been turned on its ear in the past decade or so, and that DJ enters year three behind schedule for what his draft status should dictate.
That doesn't mean that he won't become the QB that DG fell in full-bloom-love with, but he certainly wasn't worthy of that affection in 2020.
The problem is that the "they're moving the goalposts on DG!!!1!!one!" crowd can't ever walk it back when they're wrong, which is odd, considering they're so quick to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of "moving the goalposts."
I'd suggest that it would be a teachable moment for some that DG is not quite the infallible figure they claim (cue the "I'm just bringing data, not taking a side"), but it doesn't often seem like DG's most ardent supporters are particularly interested in learning.
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Are you claiming that Barkley is worth an incremental 19 passing TDs? Is that what this has come to? You're that incapable of acknowledging that Jones had a shitty year?
Is that even close to what I said?? I'm saying Jones had a poor group of WR's and no viable red zone targets.
Two can play at the game of being dense. Are you that fucking incapable of acknowledging that?
I know Jones was hamstrung by that aggregate separation stat. It couldn't possibly be that he's not actually a very good QB.
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Stats aren’t probative of his competence — but they mean something, right? People are skeptical because he’s shown a disturbing penchant for turnovers both in college and the NFL (80 in 60 games) and he’s been the starting QB on the lowest scoring team in the NFL the past 2 years. That doesn’t concern you?
you keep saying that. The Chargers went 7-9. They missed the playoffs too. Jones accounted for 26 TDs his rookie season (in 12 games) and we still went 4-12. Are you finally coming around to the fact that football is a team game? No shit you have to score points, but you have to defend as well. Which is why if we had the same defense last year that we had this year, we probably win 7-8 games instead of 4. This isn't rocket science here.
you keep saying that. The Chargers went 7-9. They missed the playoffs too. Jones accounted for 26 TDs his rookie season (in 12 games) and we still went 4-12. Are you finally coming around to the fact that football is a team game? No shit you have to score points, but you have to defend as well. Which is why if we had the same defense last year that we had this year, we probably win 7-8 games instead of 4. This isn't rocket science here.
Ryan, you wouldn't know rocket science from a bottle rocket.
about stats and other QB's touchdowns. "Daniel Jones needs 30 TDs in order to be considered a franchise QB." Nope. Not even close to being true. A good defense trumps a good offense any day of the week in the playoffs, and late in the season. He needs to become a really good quarterback, make awesome decisions, and help the TEAM become a championship contender. He needs to stop fumbling. He doesn't need to do it by himself, he doesn't need to put up 37 and 7. He needs to just be really good. Can he be great? Yeah, i think he can be. Hardly any quarterbacks in the history of the fucking league are "great" by the time they are 23, unless your name is Mahomes.
Come on Ryan, that is total bullshit. No one was saying he needed 30 TD passes, but he sure as hell needs more than 10! And I agree he doesn't necessarily have to be "great", but the lower you go on the greatness scale, the better the team he will need around him.
scoring points relates to winning *when you have a good defense*
Raiders, Vikings, Cardinals scored a bunch of points this year, they missed the playoffs.
Ryan, Herbert accounted for 36 TDs vs only 11 turnovers as a rookie — with no training camp and not getting starter reps. It’s a bit embarrassing for us to compare their rookie years.
scoring points relates to winning *when you have a good defense*
Raiders, Vikings, Cardinals scored a bunch of points this year, they missed the playoffs.
And they were all better teams than the Giants. And when we needed a win against the Cardinals they came to Jersey in a 1PM game and pushed our shit in. And Jones was non-competitive.
Again, Jones was one of the worst quarterbacks in the league in 2020. That's a fact.
We are now left hoping he's better in 2021. Shitty place to be.
we've been down this road so many times now it's laughable. So many QBs who EVERYONE just KNEW were finished products. Fans are insistent on telling the future and for some reason feel compelled to do so before the body of work has yet to be a finished product. Fans also insist that they know more than the coaches know. You don't.
Save it. No one here, not any of the so called realists, not the optimists, no one here knows wtf Jones is.
We saw Eli make so many NYG and NFL fans look so fucking stupid and here we are again with some of the same fans writing the book on Jones. Yet Joe Judge, who has been coaching in the NFL for 10 years plus seems compelled to want to continue working with Jones. Why? It's not because he wants to be right. it's not because Jones doesn't rock the boat. it's not because Jones is from Duke. It's because Jones has talent and has displayed progression.
That's why I think he's got a shot to develop into a legit QB. I am not accepting shit. I am a fan who knows that players get better. Teams get better. Coaching matters.
You don't get to write a QB off every 20 games because you haven't seen enough star power or stats that fit into your nice little agenda. It doesn't work that way. Many QBs do in fact take time to develop. Most QBs do in fact need help. FACTS. Not horse shit logic.
This is a terrific post👍
RE: It's good to hear Jones doesn't need to be great
The standards some people set for this team are at the earth's core.
I'm expecting more from Jones than "suck less than you have been sucking".
It is absolutely bewildering where so many stand on Jones and what they expect. This is my "1/11th theory" with this group - Jones is just another part of the offense. No more important than the RG.
You would think he was a 6th round pick, not the 6th overall pick.
we've been down this road so many times now it's laughable. So many QBs who EVERYONE just KNEW were finished products. Fans are insistent on telling the future and for some reason feel compelled to do so before the body of work has yet to be a finished product. Fans also insist that they know more than the coaches know. You don't.
Save it. No one here, not any of the so called realists, not the optimists, no one here knows wtf Jones is.
We saw Eli make so many NYG and NFL fans look so fucking stupid and here we are again with some of the same fans writing the book on Jones. Yet Joe Judge, who has been coaching in the NFL for 10 years plus seems compelled to want to continue working with Jones. Why? It's not because he wants to be right. it's not because Jones doesn't rock the boat. it's not because Jones is from Duke. It's because Jones has talent and has displayed progression.
That's why I think he's got a shot to develop into a legit QB. I am not accepting shit. I am a fan who knows that players get better. Teams get better. Coaching matters.
You don't get to write a QB off every 20 games because you haven't seen enough star power or stats that fit into your nice little agenda. It doesn't work that way. Many QBs do in fact take time to develop. Most QBs do in fact need help. FACTS. Not horse shit logic.
This is a terrific post👍
No, it's really not.
RE: RE: RE: This is a pretty good article spelling out a lot what I believe is the
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
I regard to #2,......was Eli?
I think so.
They only made the playoffs 5 times (I think) in his career, the team with Eli at the helm was 117-117 in regular season how is that a perennial contender?
Hot and cold for Jones on this board. Mostly cold.
He definitely deserves a chance with some weapons and better protection. What I like about him though from a fans perspective is that at times he has looked like the best athlete on the field. That is a huge plus. Added to his showing he can also make all the throws makes me hopeful he's going to have his aha moment.
People would have rather he went out and tossed 28 TDS
and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind. I saw a QB that obviously worked on his ball security and decesion making. In the early part of the year, this slow down in processing caused a couple picks on balls thrown late, but that was disappeared after week 4 or 5. His interception numbers are only what they are because we have a game day terrorist on our team by the name of Evan Engram. In the second half of the year he was clearly putting it together, but the TDS were stunted mostly beause of the supporting cast. Some of it was him no doubt, but he's far from a finished product. How people expect production when the cast of pass catchers he is working with stink and nobody fears the running backs perplexes me.
Another thing I don't understand is people acting like he has zero arm talent just because he doesn't have a strong arm. He throws with tremendous amount of touch and accuracy. Anticipation is far more important than arm strenght. Problem is when the skill players stink there's nothing to anticipate and he gets blasted for not pulling the trigger. Do we know if he can show the NFL level type anticipation it takes to be a top 8 QB in the league? Nope, but the thing is with him that he's played with such poor supporting casts that there is very little to go on.
What he has shown is he knows when NOT to pull the trigger, which is something he's needed to work on. Of course he's forced balls in the past, you have to to make things happen with this team or what he was playing with in college. Saquons the x factor that rises all boats, but DJ has played with a healthy Saquon for like 6 games.
I see a lot of the same growth that Allen had in the second year, he was clearly becoming a better QB and has the mental makeup (which is extremely underrated). I get people will point to the stats, but make no bones about it, DJ became a better QB this year and I'm excited for his future. Probably not an elite ceiling like Allen has, but certainly in that 5-10 range. I placed a SB bet on the Bills this year based on the jump as well as them adding some key pieces and being very well coached.
Are the Giants winning the SB next year? Nope (and I believe the would have been a darkhorse candidate if they had squeeked in this year and nailed their offseason moves). But I see a lot of similarities between us and the Bills from last year, including a QB who I think makes the jump. If that win total comes out 8.5 or less (which it most likely will) I'll be hammering the over.
RE: People would have rather he went out and tossed 28 TDS
It’s an absolute that Judge likes Jones? One thing I’ve learned is never believe anything GMs and HCs say to the media about players. We have no clue what they are really thinking, as we shouldn’t.
The level of posting to try and defend Daniel Jones
here goes to no bounds. Some of the above are classic.
And please stop any comparisons of Jones to Justin Herbert and Josh Allen. They only become points of contention as they sound ridiculous and only create immediate backlash.
Best served to just say Judge is backing Daniel Jones for now. Much better position for defenders to take.
RE: RE: People would have rather he went out and tossed 28 TDS
and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
Stunning.
Because it isn't about the stats, it's about building the best quarterback. Any of you that have done any sort of athletic endeavor knows sometimes it gets worse before it gets much better. I probably should have made the interception total even higher though because I completely forgot that he had so many due to the crap around him. Guess I spaced on that because he looked like a sub 5 interception QB out there.
we've been down this road so many times now it's laughable. So many QBs who EVERYONE just KNEW were finished products. Fans are insistent on telling the future and for some reason feel compelled to do so before the body of work has yet to be a finished product. Fans also insist that they know more than the coaches know. You don't.
Save it. No one here, not any of the so called realists, not the optimists, no one here knows wtf Jones is.
We saw Eli make so many NYG and NFL fans look so fucking stupid and here we are again with some of the same fans writing the book on Jones. Yet Joe Judge, who has been coaching in the NFL for 10 years plus seems compelled to want to continue working with Jones. Why? It's not because he wants to be right. it's not because Jones doesn't rock the boat. it's not because Jones is from Duke. It's because Jones has talent and has displayed progression.
That's why I think he's got a shot to develop into a legit QB. I am not accepting shit. I am a fan who knows that players get better. Teams get better. Coaching matters.
You don't get to write a QB off every 20 games because you haven't seen enough star power or stats that fit into your nice little agenda. It doesn't work that way. Many QBs do in fact take time to develop. Most QBs do in fact need help. FACTS. Not horse shit logic.
This is a terrific post👍
The wait and see approach makes for a terrific post? That could have been said in one sentence.
I was never a big fan of Ernie Accorsi but this last
Season has really made me appreciate him. Maybe he told too many Bert Jones stories, but he knew his #1 job as Giants GM was to optimize the QB position. If that meant trading away the 2005 #1 pick, that’s what he would do.
You realize that under Accorsi, the Giants QB situation improved literally every year? Go from a bunch of noodle arms to get Kerry off the scrap heap to make a massive draft day trade to get Eli. The Giants QB line was upward sloped every year he was the GM.
Then we have Mr Gettleman, who’s job #1 is to transition away from Eli, and he has two elite QB talents staring him in the face, and instead takes a guy who if he improves a lot maybe can crack a top 10 spot, if you’re optimistic.
I have the Giants in my blood but I’m not sure how much more of this I can take.
RE: RE: People would have rather he went out and tossed 28 TDS
and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
Stunning.
Because it isn't about the stats, it's about building the best quarterback. Any of you that have done any sort of athletic endeavor knows sometimes it gets worse before it gets much better. I probably should have made the interception total even higher though because I completely forgot that he had so many due to the crap around him. Guess I spaced on that because he looked like a sub 5 interception QB out there.
You could have written this with far fewer words:
"I didn't realize he only had 11 TDs to go along with his 10 INTs, and he had to cut his TDs down by 14 to reduce his INTs by 2."
People here would rather stunt their QBs growth to win a few more
games in the short term. Pretty much is your average moron's philosophy on life.
It was obvious from the jump this year what they were doing with DJ and that was tearing it down to build him up. There's growing pains there and obvious ones because the rest of the supporting cast stinks, but I certainly trust Garrett when it comes to this and Judge is obviously fully on board as well.
RE: People here would rather stunt their QBs growth to win a few more
games in the short term. Pretty much is your average moron's philosophy on life.
It was obvious from the jump this year what they were doing with DJ and that was tearing it down to build him up. There's growing pains there and obvious ones because the rest of the supporting cast stinks, but I certainly trust Garrett when it comes to this and Judge is obviously fully on board as well.
His growth?
DJ took an enormous step backwards this year. Denying that doesn't make you a better fan. It makes you an idiot.
... how do you evaluate an offensive skill player? Did Jameis Winston have a great year last year when he threw for over 5,000 yards? How would you disprove that? Umm, he led the NFL in turnovers (hint, a stat).
Coming off averaging 2 turnovers per start his rookie year, Jones had an horrifically unproductive 2020. Not an around the margins bad year, an horrifically bad year. It’s okay to acknowledge that he didn’t have the best weapons, but in an inflated stats NFL where Tyler Heinicke comes out of grad school to throw for over 300 yards, Jones dramatically underperformed. And in ANY business where your metrics suck, there’s gonna be skepticism.
Quote:
In comment 15130994 Go Terps said:
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What do you think? Do you have a thought, or are you only interested in commenting on mine?
I would echo what crick said.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
I don't think Judge hired Garrett.
You certainly could be right. Would not be a good look by Mara if it came out he forced Garrett on the staff.
Jon, gonna have to disagree with you there. Over the past few months the majority of this site has been saying the same shit over and over again when it comes to Jones. What they don't realize is that you have to just wait this out. If you want rebuilding, you can't be impatient about it. I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways.
Quote:
In comment 15131012 BubbaMojo said:
Quote:
In comment 15130994 Go Terps said:
Quote:
What do you think? Do you have a thought, or are you only interested in commenting on mine?
I would echo what crick said.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
I don't think Judge hired Garrett.
You certainly could be right. Would not be a good look by Mara if it came out he forced Garrett on the staff.
I will say, though, your opinion may end up being correct. Mainly because if I was being honest, and somebody asked me who Judge would hire if he had free reign to interview and sign whomever he wanted as his OC, I would think I'd get pretty far down the list before I would have arrived at Garrett.
Odd representation from one of the posts above. In the very same paragraph to suggest Daniel Jones shows signs of being a true franchise QB, but also that if he isn't getting it done in 2021 then he isn't the guy.
That is quite a range of outcomes to put out there. Especially when arguing with other posters that think Daniel Jones isn't the guy, only they think so now.
I don't "sing the praises of every member of the team." You're just really annoyed constantly that I like the direction that the team is going in.
You may disagree, but you gotta stop this weird obsession. It's getting extremely uncomfortable.
Ryan, whether you realize it or not, most people here think of you as someone who will polish whatever turd the Giants serve you.
I'll gladly put my football knowledge up against yours any day of the week, and I'm pretty confident I can stand toe to toe with you on how to read and interpret things.
Ask around about how you're perceived.
Odd representation from one of the posts above. In the very same paragraph to suggest Daniel Jones shows signs of being a true franchise QB, but also that if he isn't getting it done in 2021 then he isn't the guy.
That is quite a range of outcomes to put out there. Especially when arguing with other posters that think Daniel Jones isn't the guy, only they think so now.
chick, if you read my post, i said Daniel Jones went 4-2 in his last 6 games as the starter. That is a fact. He didn't go 3-3. He went 4-2. He didn't play against the Browns.
In fact, given the dubious IQ's of a few of those QBs, they'd probably have made those circumstances worse.
But its BBI and there's more ground that needs beating with dead horses.
Just out of curiosity, what does Jones do that is remotely on the same level as Herbert?
If you're such a well-informed fan without a hint of homerish bias, surely you can answer my original question.
Name five players on the roster that you think are NOT capable of being top 10 at their position.
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not 4-2.
Odd representation from one of the posts above. In the very same paragraph to suggest Daniel Jones shows signs of being a true franchise QB, but also that if he isn't getting it done in 2021 then he isn't the guy.
That is quite a range of outcomes to put out there. Especially when arguing with other posters that think Daniel Jones isn't the guy, only they think so now.
chick, if you read my post, i said Daniel Jones went 4-2 in his last 6 games as the starter. That is a fact. He didn't go 3-3. He went 4-2. He didn't play against the Browns.
My bad ryanmkeane. You are correct. I read it as the Giants and not specifically Jones.
Weren't there rumors the whole second half of the season that Judge and Garrett weren't seeing eye to eye? Wasn't that corroborated by an asshat? And then there was the Colombo (Garrett's guy) situation.
I don't think Judge hired Garrett.
Go Terps - I don't know if this can be said so literally. Would suggest that Judge did indeed hire Garrett but with some suggested hints from the existing front office.
It was fairly publicized that one of the things the owners were not very fond of with Shurmur was that they believed he brought in a poor set of assistant coaches. And I think you can also find some media reports that suggested Mara wanted first-time Head Coach Judge to ensure he added some well-experienced coaches to his staff.
It may be semantics to some degree but maybe Judge was given a list of guys to include as part of his interviewing process, and it came to be that Garrett was not only on the list but also his top choice after the interviews were complete.
Scoring points correlates to winning. The Giants were second worst in scoring points and finished 6-10 as a result. It's an achievement by the defense that they won even that many.
I'm going to say this simply and clearly:
In 2020 Daniel Jones was one of the worst quarterbacks in the NFL. He is only starting in 2021 because of his draft status.
Hopefully he shows himself to be something more than the passenger he was in 2020. But I've never been real big on hope and faith...
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Are you claiming that Barkley is worth an incremental 19 passing TDs? Is that what this has come to? You're that incapable of acknowledging that Jones had a shitty year?
Personally, I feel that if anyone (here) truly and accurately knows who Jones is or ever will be, then we wouldn't be having any arguments about him.
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some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Are you claiming that Barkley is worth an incremental 19 passing TDs? Is that what this has come to? You're that incapable of acknowledging that Jones had a shitty year?
Is that even close to what I said?? I'm saying Jones had a poor group of WR's and no viable red zone targets.
Two can play at the game of being dense. Are you that fucking incapable of acknowledging that?
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Would think most of Daniel Jones critics would suggest he could throw for more touchdowns (like he did in 2019) but with that would come the price of increased turnover risk.
The QB position requires a necessary level of production with a reasonably limited amount of turnovers. If Jones cannot deliver one without the other then its fair for some fans to think otherwise with him going forward.
Personally, I feel that if anyone (here) truly and accurately knows who Jones is or ever will be, then we wouldn't be having any arguments about him.
That's why this is a message board and not an encyclopedia. None of us are trading in absolutes.
As it relates to Jones, it's foolish to not even acknowledge that the whole QB development timeline has been turned on its ear in the past decade or so, and that DJ enters year three behind schedule for what his draft status should dictate.
That doesn't mean that he won't become the QB that DG fell in full-bloom-love with, but he certainly wasn't worthy of that affection in 2020.
The problem is that the "they're moving the goalposts on DG!!!1!!one!" crowd can't ever walk it back when they're wrong, which is odd, considering they're so quick to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of "moving the goalposts."
I'd suggest that it would be a teachable moment for some that DG is not quite the infallible figure they claim (cue the "I'm just bringing data, not taking a side"), but it doesn't often seem like DG's most ardent supporters are particularly interested in learning.
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In comment 15131080 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Are you claiming that Barkley is worth an incremental 19 passing TDs? Is that what this has come to? You're that incapable of acknowledging that Jones had a shitty year?
Is that even close to what I said?? I'm saying Jones had a poor group of WR's and no viable red zone targets.
Two can play at the game of being dense. Are you that fucking incapable of acknowledging that?
I know Jones was hamstrung by that aggregate separation stat. It couldn't possibly be that he's not actually a very good QB.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
Stats aren’t probative of his competence — but they mean something, right? People are skeptical because he’s shown a disturbing penchant for turnovers both in college and the NFL (80 in 60 games) and he’s been the starting QB on the lowest scoring team in the NFL the past 2 years. That doesn’t concern you?
Ryan, you wouldn't know rocket science from a bottle rocket.
How's that list of 5 coming along?
Raiders, Vikings, Cardinals scored a bunch of points this year, they missed the playoffs.
Come on Ryan, that is total bullshit. No one was saying he needed 30 TD passes, but he sure as hell needs more than 10! And I agree he doesn't necessarily have to be "great", but the lower you go on the greatness scale, the better the team he will need around him.
Raiders, Vikings, Cardinals scored a bunch of points this year, they missed the playoffs.
Ryan, Herbert accounted for 36 TDs vs only 11 turnovers as a rookie — with no training camp and not getting starter reps. It’s a bit embarrassing for us to compare their rookie years.
Raiders, Vikings, Cardinals scored a bunch of points this year, they missed the playoffs.
And they were all better teams than the Giants. And when we needed a win against the Cardinals they came to Jersey in a 1PM game and pushed our shit in. And Jones was non-competitive.
Again, Jones was one of the worst quarterbacks in the league in 2020. That's a fact.
We are now left hoping he's better in 2021. Shitty place to be.
I'm expecting more from Jones than "suck less than you have been sucking".
Save it. No one here, not any of the so called realists, not the optimists, no one here knows wtf Jones is.
We saw Eli make so many NYG and NFL fans look so fucking stupid and here we are again with some of the same fans writing the book on Jones. Yet Joe Judge, who has been coaching in the NFL for 10 years plus seems compelled to want to continue working with Jones. Why? It's not because he wants to be right. it's not because Jones doesn't rock the boat. it's not because Jones is from Duke. It's because Jones has talent and has displayed progression.
That's why I think he's got a shot to develop into a legit QB. I am not accepting shit. I am a fan who knows that players get better. Teams get better. Coaching matters.
You don't get to write a QB off every 20 games because you haven't seen enough star power or stats that fit into your nice little agenda. It doesn't work that way. Many QBs do in fact take time to develop. Most QBs do in fact need help. FACTS. Not horse shit logic.
This is a terrific post👍
I'm expecting more from Jones than "suck less than you have been sucking".
It is absolutely bewildering where so many stand on Jones and what they expect. This is my "1/11th theory" with this group - Jones is just another part of the offense. No more important than the RG.
You would think he was a 6th round pick, not the 6th overall pick.
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we've been down this road so many times now it's laughable. So many QBs who EVERYONE just KNEW were finished products. Fans are insistent on telling the future and for some reason feel compelled to do so before the body of work has yet to be a finished product. Fans also insist that they know more than the coaches know. You don't.
Save it. No one here, not any of the so called realists, not the optimists, no one here knows wtf Jones is.
We saw Eli make so many NYG and NFL fans look so fucking stupid and here we are again with some of the same fans writing the book on Jones. Yet Joe Judge, who has been coaching in the NFL for 10 years plus seems compelled to want to continue working with Jones. Why? It's not because he wants to be right. it's not because Jones doesn't rock the boat. it's not because Jones is from Duke. It's because Jones has talent and has displayed progression.
That's why I think he's got a shot to develop into a legit QB. I am not accepting shit. I am a fan who knows that players get better. Teams get better. Coaching matters.
You don't get to write a QB off every 20 games because you haven't seen enough star power or stats that fit into your nice little agenda. It doesn't work that way. Many QBs do in fact take time to develop. Most QBs do in fact need help. FACTS. Not horse shit logic.
This is a terrific post👍
No, it's really not.
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In comment 15130627 Dnew15 said:
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case...
1.) I think DJ is trying too hard. I think he wants to be the franchise QB so badly for the Giants and presses. I think the locker room and coaches love it for him - it makes it real hard to give up on this kid.
2) I think the Giants can win games with DJ. But I don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to make them a perennial Super Bowl contender
3.) I think Jared Goff is a great comp for him as a passer with the added bonus of better straight line speed
The real question then becomes - are you willing to pay DJ, Goff like money moving forward?
I regard to #2,......was Eli?
I think so.
They only made the playoffs 5 times (I think) in his career, the team with Eli at the helm was 117-117 in regular season how is that a perennial contender?
Another thing I don't understand is people acting like he has zero arm talent just because he doesn't have a strong arm. He throws with tremendous amount of touch and accuracy. Anticipation is far more important than arm strenght. Problem is when the skill players stink there's nothing to anticipate and he gets blasted for not pulling the trigger. Do we know if he can show the NFL level type anticipation it takes to be a top 8 QB in the league? Nope, but the thing is with him that he's played with such poor supporting casts that there is very little to go on.
What he has shown is he knows when NOT to pull the trigger, which is something he's needed to work on. Of course he's forced balls in the past, you have to to make things happen with this team or what he was playing with in college. Saquons the x factor that rises all boats, but DJ has played with a healthy Saquon for like 6 games.
I see a lot of the same growth that Allen had in the second year, he was clearly becoming a better QB and has the mental makeup (which is extremely underrated). I get people will point to the stats, but make no bones about it, DJ became a better QB this year and I'm excited for his future. Probably not an elite ceiling like Allen has, but certainly in that 5-10 range. I placed a SB bet on the Bills this year based on the jump as well as them adding some key pieces and being very well coached.
Are the Giants winning the SB next year? Nope (and I believe the would have been a darkhorse candidate if they had squeeked in this year and nailed their offseason moves). But I see a lot of similarities between us and the Bills from last year, including a QB who I think makes the jump. If that win total comes out 8.5 or less (which it most likely will) I'll be hammering the over.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
And please stop any comparisons of Jones to Justin Herbert and Josh Allen. They only become points of contention as they sound ridiculous and only create immediate backlash.
Best served to just say Judge is backing Daniel Jones for now. Much better position for defenders to take.
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and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
Stunning.
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In comment 15131149 Zeke's Alibi said:
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and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
Stunning.
Because it isn't about the stats, it's about building the best quarterback. Any of you that have done any sort of athletic endeavor knows sometimes it gets worse before it gets much better. I probably should have made the interception total even higher though because I completely forgot that he had so many due to the crap around him. Guess I spaced on that because he looked like a sub 5 interception QB out there.
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we've been down this road so many times now it's laughable. So many QBs who EVERYONE just KNEW were finished products. Fans are insistent on telling the future and for some reason feel compelled to do so before the body of work has yet to be a finished product. Fans also insist that they know more than the coaches know. You don't.
Save it. No one here, not any of the so called realists, not the optimists, no one here knows wtf Jones is.
We saw Eli make so many NYG and NFL fans look so fucking stupid and here we are again with some of the same fans writing the book on Jones. Yet Joe Judge, who has been coaching in the NFL for 10 years plus seems compelled to want to continue working with Jones. Why? It's not because he wants to be right. it's not because Jones doesn't rock the boat. it's not because Jones is from Duke. It's because Jones has talent and has displayed progression.
That's why I think he's got a shot to develop into a legit QB. I am not accepting shit. I am a fan who knows that players get better. Teams get better. Coaching matters.
You don't get to write a QB off every 20 games because you haven't seen enough star power or stats that fit into your nice little agenda. It doesn't work that way. Many QBs do in fact take time to develop. Most QBs do in fact need help. FACTS. Not horse shit logic.
This is a terrific post👍
The wait and see approach makes for a terrific post? That could have been said in one sentence.
You realize that under Accorsi, the Giants QB situation improved literally every year? Go from a bunch of noodle arms to get Kerry off the scrap heap to make a massive draft day trade to get Eli. The Giants QB line was upward sloped every year he was the GM.
Then we have Mr Gettleman, who’s job #1 is to transition away from Eli, and he has two elite QB talents staring him in the face, and instead takes a guy who if he improves a lot maybe can crack a top 10 spot, if you’re optimistic.
I have the Giants in my blood but I’m not sure how much more of this I can take.
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and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
It blew me away.
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In comment 15131152 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15131149 Zeke's Alibi said:
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and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
Stunning.
Because it isn't about the stats, it's about building the best quarterback. Any of you that have done any sort of athletic endeavor knows sometimes it gets worse before it gets much better. I probably should have made the interception total even higher though because I completely forgot that he had so many due to the crap around him. Guess I spaced on that because he looked like a sub 5 interception QB out there.
You could have written this with far fewer words:
"I didn't realize he only had 11 TDs to go along with his 10 INTs, and he had to cut his TDs down by 14 to reduce his INTs by 2."
It was obvious from the jump this year what they were doing with DJ and that was tearing it down to build him up. There's growing pains there and obvious ones because the rest of the supporting cast stinks, but I certainly trust Garrett when it comes to this and Judge is obviously fully on board as well.
It was obvious from the jump this year what they were doing with DJ and that was tearing it down to build him up. There's growing pains there and obvious ones because the rest of the supporting cast stinks, but I certainly trust Garrett when it comes to this and Judge is obviously fully on board as well.
His growth?
DJ took an enormous step backwards this year. Denying that doesn't make you a better fan. It makes you an idiot.
Coming off averaging 2 turnovers per start his rookie year, Jones had an horrifically unproductive 2020. Not an around the margins bad year, an horrifically bad year. It’s okay to acknowledge that he didn’t have the best weapons, but in an inflated stats NFL where Tyler Heinicke comes out of grad school to throw for over 300 yards, Jones dramatically underperformed. And in ANY business where your metrics suck, there’s gonna be skepticism.