30 TDs wouldn't even be top ten this year. It's not some incredible feat.
Jones will have a better season next year. I'm fairly confident in that. He was a bottom five starting QB this year. I don't think that's all he is. I was encouraged by his 2019 season. But if you projected his totals over a 16 game season, it's still not probably not a top ten QB due to the turnovers. But it's much closer than what we saw this year.
Jones' biggest supporters discuss a more mobile Jared Goff and 30 TD seasons in hopeful terms. Isn't that a red flag? Do people think we can build a Rams caliber roster around Jones to be a contender?
Next year's big. But a 25/12 TD/INT ratio won't be good enough to warrant further investment. I think a lot of people still think QBs throw at the same TD rates they did 10-15 years ago.
30 TDs wouldn't even be top ten this year. It's not some incredible feat.
Jones will have a better season next year. I'm fairly confident in that. He was a bottom five starting QB this year. I don't think that's all he is. I was encouraged by his 2019 season. But if you projected his totals over a 16 game season, it's still not probably not a top ten QB due to the turnovers. But it's much closer than what we saw this year.
Jones' biggest supporters discuss a more mobile Jared Goff and 30 TD seasons in hopeful terms. Isn't that a red flag? Do people think we can build a Rams caliber roster around Jones to be a contender?
Next year's big. But a 25/12 TD/INT ratio won't be good enough to warrant further investment. I think a lot of people still think QBs throw at the same TD rates they did 10-15 years ago.
This really gets to the heart of it. The majority of DJ's most enthusiastic supporters come across as those who have never watched a game that the Giants weren't playing in.
They only made the playoffs 5 times (I think) in his career, the team with Eli at the helm was 117-117 in regular season how is that a perennial contender?
they were 10-6 one year and 9-7 another and didn't make the playoffs because the division wasn't the shit show it is now.
He was better in the second half than in the first half but unfortunately, that is a pretty low bar. He was 63% for 1533 yards 6 td and 3 picks for an 87.6 qb rating 7.2 yards per attempt in 7 games in the second half. In the first half, he was 62% 1410 5 td 7 picks 73.7 qb rating 5.17 yards per attempt.
But it's a passing league and passers are putting up huge numbers. Taking his marks from the second half, he would still be near the bottom of starting qb in completion percentage, td's, qb rating. I know, I know, stats mean nothing because you NFL scouts here can see it all, but for us mere mortals, Jones was not good either half of the season. He did improve from laughably bad to borderline NFL starter.
Jones' draft profile said his ceiling was a starter, and that is where he is. To think he is going to suddenly blossom into a top 10 starter may be (not definite yet) magical thinking.
RE: RE: RE: RE: People would have rather he went out and tossed 28 TDS
and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
Stunning.
Because it isn't about the stats, it's about building the best quarterback. Any of you that have done any sort of athletic endeavor knows sometimes it gets worse before it gets much better. I probably should have made the interception total even higher though because I completely forgot that he had so many due to the crap around him. Guess I spaced on that because he looked like a sub 5 interception QB out there.
Decisions like these, especially when it comes to QBs, are never easy to make. Although it was clear Jones struggled in his second season, he'll be given another chance.. and he deserves that. You could make the argument a better supporting cast will help improve his performance just like you can make the argument that he's regressed but there's no need to have that argument because NYG will give him another year..
However, they will add a better failsafe. The defense performed too well not too. If Jones struggles again next season while the defense plays well they'll need a better option than Colt McCoy to turn to.. And I've heard Brissett is a likely target.
some posters have with stats is that they cherry-pick them or minimize certain ones when it is convenient.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
He's going to get his chance next year, so he'd better deliver. No excuses, although I'm sure some people will find a way to blame the supporting cast again without blaming the GM.
Zeke an idiot. I can see why some would disagree with his stance on Jones, but I certainly don't consider him of idiot status.
Fair point, and it was not right for me to make it personal.
But I do genuinely think that ZA didn't realize/remember exactly how mediocre DJ's passing stats were this past season when he threw out the threshold that he thought most Giants fans would or would not approve of (28 TDs/16 INTs).
I don't think he is an idiot, but I do think that particular post was a full notch below the level at which he typically writes.
RE: People would have rather he went out and tossed 28 TDS
and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind. I saw a QB that obviously worked on his ball security and decesion making. In the early part of the year, this slow down in processing caused a couple picks on balls thrown late, but that was disappeared after week 4 or 5. His interception numbers are only what they are because we have a game day terrorist on our team by the name of Evan Engram. In the second half of the year he was clearly putting it together, but the TDS were stunted mostly beause of the supporting cast. Some of it was him no doubt, but he's far from a finished product. How people expect production when the cast of pass catchers he is working with stink and nobody fears the running backs perplexes me.
Another thing I don't understand is people acting like he has zero arm talent just because he doesn't have a strong arm. He throws with tremendous amount of touch and accuracy. Anticipation is far more important than arm strenght. Problem is when the skill players stink there's nothing to anticipate and he gets blasted for not pulling the trigger. Do we know if he can show the NFL level type anticipation it takes to be a top 8 QB in the league? Nope, but the thing is with him that he's played with such poor supporting casts that there is very little to go on.
What he has shown is he knows when NOT to pull the trigger, which is something he's needed to work on. Of course he's forced balls in the past, you have to to make things happen with this team or what he was playing with in college. Saquons the x factor that rises all boats, but DJ has played with a healthy Saquon for like 6 games.
I see a lot of the same growth that Allen had in the second year, he was clearly becoming a better QB and has the mental makeup (which is extremely underrated). I get people will point to the stats, but make no bones about it, DJ became a better QB this year and I'm excited for his future. Probably not an elite ceiling like Allen has, but certainly in that 5-10 range. I placed a SB bet on the Bills this year based on the jump as well as them adding some key pieces and being very well coached.
Are the Giants winning the SB next year? Nope (and I believe the would have been a darkhorse candidate if they had squeeked in this year and nailed their offseason moves). But I see a lot of similarities between us and the Bills from last year, including a QB who I think makes the jump. If that win total comes out 8.5 or less (which it most likely will) I'll be hammering the over.
For a guy who I find pretty insightful and bright about football, there are some very strange conclusions in this post.
The number one responsibility for the QB is to score points. That's it in a nutshell. Figure out a way to get into the endzone first or settle for a FG second. If our QB can't produce at least, and I'm being kind here because this NFL practically does everything possible for you to score TDs, 25 TDs than he should be (1) a permanent back-up or (2) out of the league. It's a cliche, but totally apt, but the QB always touches the ball on offense, so he has to be points producer.
I don't care how ordinary our WRs are (I actually don't think they are that bad) or how ordinary our OL is (which they probably were), Jones needs to produce considerably more than 11 TDs. One word describes this type of production for the 6th pick - embarrassing.
I'm surprised more people don't use that word.
You know what? I'd rather have a player like Jamis Winston. A guy who will get you 30+ TDs and 30 INTs. At least I'm getting into the damn endzone.
These Allen comps really need to stop. Jones is not in his class as a player and athlete.
Right now Gardner Minshew would be better for this team. For a 6th round pick, he's showing a lot better than Jones.
I think it’s quite an assumption that Jones was being broken down to be built back up, when his coach his rookie year has a pretty damn good record getting the best out of young and/or average QBs.
Let’s see if that turns out to be true, next year should prove that.
But let’s not dismiss that Jones actually maybe benefited from Shurmur, and his dramatic drop off in productivity was because of Schuplinski.
you and all these other posters are conflating the issue.
It’s obvious to everyone on planet earth that Jones needs to throw more than 10 touchdown passes. So, let’s shut the fuck up about that.
It’s also factually accurate that you can win Super Bowls with quarterbacks who throw 28-33 on a consistent basis. Some of the very best franchise QBs of the past 20 years have been around that number their whole career. I mean hell - everyone loves to beat their dicks to Lamar Jackson and he can’t even throw the ball down the field! But hey he scores a bunch of cute plays so yay Ravens.
Again, the difference between a 2 yard rushing TD and a passing TD means absolute shit to me. I’d rather have a team that can run it down your throat and pass it all over the field when they need to, instead of a team that throws the ball on every down. The very best teams that win the playoffs can run the ball, and they have a franchise QB who can throw it on a consistent basis and make all the throws, and can play winning football. I’ll point to Eli Manning’s best “statistical season” he ever had, we sucked. We went 6-10. His best years were 07-11 and even though they weren’t amazing stats wise he was an assassin out there and he had full control of everything. He was absolutely a top 10 QB during that time. But yeah - he threw all those TDs to Beckham during the late years but guess what it didn’t matter because we sucked.
Again, unless your name is Mahomes or Rodgers, 40 TD is not the norm. Some of the best best franchise QBs of the last 20 years have been around 30 their whole career.
On a championship contender, I want a QB who has full control of the offense, a guy who is tough and a guy who can make all he throws all over the field when he needs to, depending on the game plan. That’s what Eli Manning was and that’s what I think DJ can be, but he has played 26 games.
I think it’s quite an assumption that Jones was being broken down to be built back up, when his coach his rookie year has a pretty damn good record getting the best out of young and/or average QBs.
Let’s see if that turns out to be true, next year should prove that.
But let’s not dismiss that Jones actually maybe benefited from Shurmur, and his dramatic drop off in productivity was because of Schuplinski.
Good point on Shurmur. Down the stretch this year, Lock started to play much better with Denver. Perhaps Shurmur is starting to pay dividends with that project now.
The very best teams that win the playoffs can run the ball, and they have a franchise QB who can throw it on a consistent basis and make all the throws, and can play winning football.
Terps literally just showed you that the four teams remaining in the playoffs were the top four passing teams in the league.
I think it’s quite an assumption that Jones was being broken down to be built back up, when his coach his rookie year has a pretty damn good record getting the best out of young and/or average QBs.
Let’s see if that turns out to be true, next year should prove that.
But let’s not dismiss that Jones actually maybe benefited from Shurmur, and his dramatic drop off in productivity was because of Schuplinski.
I'm just saying what I thought I saw. I remeber very early in the season remarking this to my Cowboys buddy I watch games with. Around week 5 or 6 I was ready to start looking at QBs for next year IF he didn't start to put it together by end of season. Something clicked in the 2nd half of the Bucs game when he finally threw a ball away. Right now the biggest thing holding him back from tossing 30tds is talent I believe. Either protection or skill guys. This team is built with a running philosophy so I don't expect to get any different lineman anytime soon, but this is a great year to add skill guys. People are also discoutnign the fact that the game plan this year was to shorten to the fuck out of games and that affects the stat line as well. I'd be curious how many drives we had, has to be lowest 5 and quite posssibly the least.
And I'm not saying even with talent he would have thrown 30 tds this
year, but I'm confident he makes the jump as a 3rd year QB in the second year of the offense. I also think we see a different offensive playcall set once we get Saquon back. His presense will help the pass blocking, can't just tee off when you need to account for him. Garrett has had TWO receivers in top 10 ypc practically every year he was in Dallas I've been told, where was that this year? Sidelined due to personnel limitations.
I see where Jones is compared to the 4 QBs playing this weekend and he comes up woefully short. But, why stop there. Compare the Giants OL to the OLs of the final 4. Woefully short? Yes. Compare the Giants WRs & TEs to those of the final 4 teams. Same. You can make the statement that the Giants offense sucked. But, I don’t know that the gap between Jones and the 4 QBs playing this weekend is any greater than the gap between the OLs and the receivers. The Giants offense needs a boatload of help to get to those levels.
RE: And I'm not saying even with talent he would have thrown 30 tds this
year, but I'm confident he makes the jump as a 3rd year QB in the second year of the offense. I also think we see a different offensive playcall set once we get Saquon back. His presense will help the pass blocking, can't just tee off when you need to account for him. Garrett has had TWO receivers in top 10 ypc practically every year he was in Dallas I've been told, where was that this year? Sidelined due to personnel limitations.
Your "confidence" that he will emerge with the "right scheme" isn't enough evidence. Sorry. The QB should make the scheme work. It shouldn't be the scheme that makes the QB work. This kid doesn't have it. We see what he is. Sure, put the perfect team around him, and they'll win. But that's not sustainable.
In the NFL the bet you want to make is to get an elite QB. If you don't have an elite QB you need all the systems to be great: the pass rush, the secondary, the run D, the O-line. If you don't have an elite QB then you need a giant parlay bet to come through. Is that what you want to root for?
Zeke an idiot. I can see why some would disagree with his stance on Jones, but I certainly don't consider him of idiot status.
Fair point, and it was not right for me to make it personal.
But I do genuinely think that ZA didn't realize/remember exactly how mediocre DJ's passing stats were this past season when he threw out the threshold that he thought most Giants fans would or would not approve of (28 TDs/16 INTs).
I don't think he is an idiot, but I do think that particular post was a full notch below the level at which he typically writes.
GD, I take stuff here personally as well sometimes. I read a lot of your posts and Zeke's posts, I find you both to be pretty reasonable which is why I hardly ever engage with either one of you.
RE: RE: And I'm not saying even with talent he would have thrown 30 tds this
year, but I'm confident he makes the jump as a 3rd year QB in the second year of the offense. I also think we see a different offensive playcall set once we get Saquon back. His presense will help the pass blocking, can't just tee off when you need to account for him. Garrett has had TWO receivers in top 10 ypc practically every year he was in Dallas I've been told, where was that this year? Sidelined due to personnel limitations.
Your "confidence" that he will emerge with the "right scheme" isn't enough evidence. Sorry. The QB should make the scheme work. It shouldn't be the scheme that makes the QB work. This kid doesn't have it. We see what he is. Sure, put the perfect team around him, and they'll win. But that's not sustainable.
In the NFL the bet you want to make is to get an elite QB. If you don't have an elite QB you need all the systems to be great: the pass rush, the secondary, the run D, the O-line. If you don't have an elite QB then you need a giant parlay bet to come through. Is that what you want to root for?
Good post. And it's going to take a very deft hand, or an inordinate amount of luck, to build that team with all of the "systems" you cite.
It’s not illogical to assume if many variables improve, the equation will produce better results. If the Giants improve the pass protection, Barkley returns to All Pro form, and the Giants dramatically improve the receivers and tight ends, Jones can be a productive quarterback.
I don’t think anyone would argue against that.
So now let’s assess the odds and to what degree these outcomes are likely and immediate. Let’s say some of those things don’t happen or happen to a lesser degree, then can Jones be a productive quarterback?
If we assume improvements can develop on a spectrum, and the external factors from Jones trend toward likely and not miraculous, I think it’s fair to say Jones himself needs to be much, much better for the Giants to be a contender.
.... the Steelers scout like crazy, move up, grab a high potential QB (maybe Trey Lance), and design a system around him. I wish we would take a cue from the smart teams (like the Steelers and Ravens) and stop trying to find another Eli, get a badass high ceiling athlete and build. I hope the Jints scouting department is up to the task, because it would suck if we pass on yet another franchise dude when we are on the clock at #11.
It amazes me how people analyze players in the a vacuum
There is no way that a QB who is getting 1/2 the time to throw, with crap WR's, with no starting RB, should be judged on an equal playing field with a guy getting time to throw to real NFL receivers. Football is a team game and there are 11 people out there.
If you have a team like TB who is 8-8 and being held back by the QB play, then a guy like Brady coming in turns it all around. They were one player away, everything else was set.
I am going to bet that if next year the Giants OL plays as well as GB, and the WR's are as good as GB, then Daniel Jones suddenly looks like a franchise guy.
This is the challenge for GM's. Players are in all different situations, you can't just look at factors like team success to judge them.
In their past lives, were ryan leaf boosters.... thought the titanic was very sea worthy......they must have invested in Apollo 13 base camp photos. D.J....just Ain’t. He may be the only choice, till the 2022 draft, but that scenario is a big bowl of qb strip sack wrong.
RE: It amazes me how people analyze players in the a vacuum
There is no way that a QB who is getting 1/2 the time to throw, with crap WR's, with no starting RB, should be judged on an equal playing field with a guy getting time to throw to real NFL receivers.
What about assessing receivers with a crap QB throwing to them?
RE: Giants v. four teams playing this weekend (rankings)
Winning in the NFL in 2021 is about throwing the football to create points. Mara/Gettleman/Garrett do not operate this way.
This is a Great Post...great points. This chases me off thoughts to sign LW and DT and then Draft Micah. I might consider ONLY LW, with the other two slots traded for the Offensive side of the ball.
To the DJ questions... The Attack plan and the Arsenal on Offense has been minimal. They need 4-5 additional Scary Players on Offense...more speed at attack positions
This much I am sure of: give Jones time and weapons before you judge
How can you judge this guy based on these basic facts:
-2019 he was the #2 QB thru camp behind Eli
-2019 he takes over and outside of his fumbles he is good for a rookie by any standard
-2020 Covid hits. A new offense is installed. No real training camp to build on, no pre-season games
-2020 his OL is again terrible for the majority of the season; he loses his only playmaker early in Barkley; and, he gets hurt a second year in a row.
If in year 3 he has a full camp in the same offensive system; if Jones gets a true #1 WR via UFA; if we draft playmakers; and, if the OL truly gels as I believe it will, we will know by literally mid-season if we have a true #1 QB that can win you the SB.
I believe Jones is "good enough" if he has "enough" talent around him to WIN with consistently. We lack top end offensive talent and we miss both a solid ER and 2nd CB to get to the next level defensively.
I read the Schwartz article (ok, some reasonable assessments of DJ's promise as a mid- to upper- (not elite) tier QB in the League, but not the thread. In five pages of innumerable posts, were any news or views broken that haven't been played and re-played before in the tens and tens of threads on DJ?
RE: This much I am sure of: give Jones time and weapons before you judge
How can you judge this guy based on these basic facts:
-2019 he was the #2 QB thru camp behind Eli
-2019 he takes over and outside of his fumbles he is good for a rookie by any standard
-2020 Covid hits. A new offense is installed. No real training camp to build on, no pre-season games
-2020 his OL is again terrible for the majority of the season; he loses his only playmaker early in Barkley; and, he gets hurt a second year in a row.
If in year 3 he has a full camp in the same offensive system; if Jones gets a true #1 WR via UFA; if we draft playmakers; and, if the OL truly gels as I believe it will, we will know by literally mid-season if we have a true #1 QB that can win you the SB.
I believe Jones is "good enough" if he has "enough" talent around him to WIN with consistently. We lack top end offensive talent and we miss both a solid ER and 2nd CB to get to the next level defensively.
He’s going to get another shot, and fingers crossed you’re right, but your timeline leaves out his 3 years at Duke, when despite working with pre-eminent QB whisperer Cutliffe, he was plagued by fumbles and didn’t light the world on fire either (like most every other elite QB did in college — see, for example, Trey Lance, who in his one full season as a raw 18 year old, had 42 TDs, ran for 1,100 yards, and get this ... had zero turnovers ... that’s right, his line is 42-0). Through 60 games Jones has 80 turnovers, which is obviously one of the reasons why he wasn’t looked at as an elite prospect.
“At some point, you are what your record says you are” has to come into play here at some point. Stats and a winning record do matter at some point. Hope you guys are right about Jones, because with the Giants inertia and inability to look outside of their classic pocket passer/Eli model, he’ll of course be behind center week 1.
RE: RE: RE: And I'm not saying even with talent he would have thrown 30 tds this
year, but I'm confident he makes the jump as a 3rd year QB in the second year of the offense. I also think we see a different offensive playcall set once we get Saquon back. His presense will help the pass blocking, can't just tee off when you need to account for him. Garrett has had TWO receivers in top 10 ypc practically every year he was in Dallas I've been told, where was that this year? Sidelined due to personnel limitations.
Your "confidence" that he will emerge with the "right scheme" isn't enough evidence. Sorry. The QB should make the scheme work. It shouldn't be the scheme that makes the QB work. This kid doesn't have it. We see what he is. Sure, put the perfect team around him, and they'll win. But that's not sustainable.
In the NFL the bet you want to make is to get an elite QB. If you don't have an elite QB you need all the systems to be great: the pass rush, the secondary, the run D, the O-line. If you don't have an elite QB then you need a giant parlay bet to come through. Is that what you want to root for?
Good post. And it's going to take a very deft hand, or an inordinate amount of luck, to build that team with all of the "systems" you cite.
or it will take an unlikely stroke of luck. I don't think folks are thinking this through. You can't build a consistent winner in this league with even a top 15-20 QB. It is probably hard with the #12 QB. If you don't have a star QB you should always be looking for one. The Giants must evaluate Trey Lance. If they decide he doesn't have the stuff to be elite - ok I can live with that. But just to roll into the season with DJ without considering other options is stupid.
Jones did much of the same shit in 2019 that Herbert did in 2020. Ok Herbert had better numbers but not SO much better that he’s completely exalted around here while Jones is considered total crap. Think about that for a second. How can Herbert be fool proof lock stock perfect while jones oh my god he’s trash. Wtf???
You have a guy in Herbert who threw for about 1000 more and added about 10 more tds while playing 3-4 more games than jones did in year 1. Ok. Cool. He’s a nice looking player. I’ll give you that. He also had better wrs I think that’s fair. And despite the ekeler injury had him about the same amount of time jones has Barkley and he had some talented rb talent behind ekeler. He also had hunter Henry who many here said is so much better than Engram. We know the chargers wrs are a lot better than ours.
Somehow Herbert is can’t miss but the giants are fools for sticking with jones. Ok then.
And if herBert, while playing for a new HC in 2021 sees his numbers dip but maybe wins a game or two more? Will you then kill SD for sticking with him? I’m sure you’d exhibit the same restraint.....
Honest question: would you trade the entire Giants roster for Justin Herbert? Just hypothetically? The whole team for one guy. Mahomes maybe? QB1 is the most important element for wining in the NFL. No other position is even close. No QB and you’re playing for second place.
Another question, if you could bet on any quarterback in the NFL to win a Super Bowl, say within the next five years, would you put your money on Jones? What would the odds look like for that bet against the other NFL QBs? Jones would have to be the longest of long shots. There’s guys in college that you’d put better odds on.
And thanks for cementing my point. Herbert is a building block you’re certain of because of one fun little fantasy football type season that barely even eclipses what jones did in his rookie year. Jones isn’t shit anymore though am I right? I guess some of you really did ignore 2019. I mean I kind of did, but I didn’t think everyone else did.
So if Herbert takes a step down next year I guess we will bury him too.
I’m done don’t waste you’re time as I won’t read anymore. I’ll go visit some other thread. Hopefully someone saves this one like the old Eli one from 2009.
It didn’t barely eclipse jones but it didn’t completely blow his rookie year out of the water by any means. Per game production was better for Herbert but not that much better and he lost plenty of games too.
I just think it’s odd that there’s such a fine line between an amazingly good young qb (your words not mine) in Herbert and the comically dumb giants (not mine) for moving forward with jones.
We shall see. Maybe judge wants a new qb anyway. I doubt it though. And I think jones will be fine next year because I think he turned a corner over his last 5-6 starts this season. With another year under this staff and some more offensive seasoning in place jones will be fine.
If you pro-rate Jones’s number from his rookie season to 15 games, he gets close in yards and TDs, but blows by the negatives as well. It’s pretty fair to say Herbert had a much better rookie season.
Judge has 100% intertwined himself with amines. He loves the guy.
So you’re positive or negative view on Jones is a twofer.
I’m not sure we can know what Judge really thinks of Jones. His comments strike me as mostly coach speak which you’d expect (and want) from any good head coach. It’s not like Judge would ever say publicly if he has doubts about Jones. Logically, why would Judge give a hoot about Jones? He didn’t draft him, he hasn’t won with him and remember too that Judge spent a lot of time around Tawmy GOAT. Now maybe Judge thinks Jones is another Ugg model, but maybe also he sees the delta between DJ8 and a proven champ. I doubt Judge is committed to much beyond winning football games.
RE: Whatever you think of Jones, you think of Judge
Judge has 100% intertwined himself with amines. He loves the guy.
So you’re positive or negative view on Jones is a twofer.
That sentiment goes too far. Judge has made enough positive comments that he has Jones’ back. But don’t imagine that intertwining is anything more than for 2021 if Jones doesn’t step up.
Jones will have a better season next year. I'm fairly confident in that. He was a bottom five starting QB this year. I don't think that's all he is. I was encouraged by his 2019 season. But if you projected his totals over a 16 game season, it's still not probably not a top ten QB due to the turnovers. But it's much closer than what we saw this year.
Jones' biggest supporters discuss a more mobile Jared Goff and 30 TD seasons in hopeful terms. Isn't that a red flag? Do people think we can build a Rams caliber roster around Jones to be a contender?
Next year's big. But a 25/12 TD/INT ratio won't be good enough to warrant further investment. I think a lot of people still think QBs throw at the same TD rates they did 10-15 years ago.
Ok. Maybe Gates, he was pissing off some Dallas players. That was cool.
Jones will have a better season next year. I'm fairly confident in that. He was a bottom five starting QB this year. I don't think that's all he is. I was encouraged by his 2019 season. But if you projected his totals over a 16 game season, it's still not probably not a top ten QB due to the turnovers. But it's much closer than what we saw this year.
Jones' biggest supporters discuss a more mobile Jared Goff and 30 TD seasons in hopeful terms. Isn't that a red flag? Do people think we can build a Rams caliber roster around Jones to be a contender?
Next year's big. But a 25/12 TD/INT ratio won't be good enough to warrant further investment. I think a lot of people still think QBs throw at the same TD rates they did 10-15 years ago.
This really gets to the heart of it. The majority of DJ's most enthusiastic supporters come across as those who have never watched a game that the Giants weren't playing in.
He was better in the second half than in the first half but unfortunately, that is a pretty low bar. He was 63% for 1533 yards 6 td and 3 picks for an 87.6 qb rating 7.2 yards per attempt in 7 games in the second half. In the first half, he was 62% 1410 5 td 7 picks 73.7 qb rating 5.17 yards per attempt.
But it's a passing league and passers are putting up huge numbers. Taking his marks from the second half, he would still be near the bottom of starting qb in completion percentage, td's, qb rating. I know, I know, stats mean nothing because you NFL scouts here can see it all, but for us mere mortals, Jones was not good either half of the season. He did improve from laughably bad to borderline NFL starter.
Jones' draft profile said his ceiling was a starter, and that is where he is. To think he is going to suddenly blossom into a top 10 starter may be (not definite yet) magical thinking.
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In comment 15131152 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15131149 Zeke's Alibi said:
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and threw 16 picks this year than what we saw which blows my mind.
It blows your mind that fans might be willing to trade SIX interceptions for SEVENTEEN touchdowns?
That blows your mind?
Stunning.
Because it isn't about the stats, it's about building the best quarterback. Any of you that have done any sort of athletic endeavor knows sometimes it gets worse before it gets much better. I probably should have made the interception total even higher though because I completely forgot that he had so many due to the crap around him. Guess I spaced on that because he looked like a sub 5 interception QB out there.
Elite Qbs aren't built, they're born that way.
Personally, I feel that if anyone (here) truly and accurately knows who Jones is or ever will be, then we wouldn't be having any arguments about him.
How do we know Judge loves Jones? Because he said so? You think he would say he hated his ability? That's awfully naive.
Points Allowed: TB-8, NYG-9, KC-11, GB-13, BUF-16
Pass Y/A: GB-3, BUF-4, KC-6, TB-8, NYG-26
Pass TD: GB-1, TB-2, BUF-3, KC-4, NYG-32
Rush Y/A: GB-6, KC-11, NYG-13, BUF-21, TB-25
Rush TD: GB-16, BUF-17, TB-18, KC-22, NYG-23
Winning in the NFL in 2021 is about throwing the football to create points. Mara/Gettleman/Garrett do not operate this way.
Decisions like these, especially when it comes to QBs, are never easy to make. Although it was clear Jones struggled in his second season, he'll be given another chance.. and he deserves that. You could make the argument a better supporting cast will help improve his performance just like you can make the argument that he's regressed but there's no need to have that argument because NYG will give him another year..
However, they will add a better failsafe. The defense performed too well not too. If Jones struggles again next season while the defense plays well they'll need a better option than Colt McCoy to turn to.. And I've heard Brissett is a likely target.
Anyone who mentions Jones TD totals last season was drowned out with "but he had so many turnovers". Then this season, it is all about the TD's and stats. HE ONLY THREW 11TD's!!!!
And for some reason, I keep seeing that Jones can't throw for 30TD's. What the fuck is that based on?? He didn't have his RB who accounted for several TD's in the air and he didn't have any consistency at the WR position and zero reliable red zone targets.
Why can't he get to 30TD's with better personnel??
Better yet - why have some of you decided he can't and you already know what he can and will deliver??
He's going to get his chance next year, so he'd better deliver. No excuses, although I'm sure some people will find a way to blame the supporting cast again without blaming the GM.
Fair point, and it was not right for me to make it personal.
But I do genuinely think that ZA didn't realize/remember exactly how mediocre DJ's passing stats were this past season when he threw out the threshold that he thought most Giants fans would or would not approve of (28 TDs/16 INTs).
I don't think he is an idiot, but I do think that particular post was a full notch below the level at which he typically writes.
Another thing I don't understand is people acting like he has zero arm talent just because he doesn't have a strong arm. He throws with tremendous amount of touch and accuracy. Anticipation is far more important than arm strenght. Problem is when the skill players stink there's nothing to anticipate and he gets blasted for not pulling the trigger. Do we know if he can show the NFL level type anticipation it takes to be a top 8 QB in the league? Nope, but the thing is with him that he's played with such poor supporting casts that there is very little to go on.
What he has shown is he knows when NOT to pull the trigger, which is something he's needed to work on. Of course he's forced balls in the past, you have to to make things happen with this team or what he was playing with in college. Saquons the x factor that rises all boats, but DJ has played with a healthy Saquon for like 6 games.
I see a lot of the same growth that Allen had in the second year, he was clearly becoming a better QB and has the mental makeup (which is extremely underrated). I get people will point to the stats, but make no bones about it, DJ became a better QB this year and I'm excited for his future. Probably not an elite ceiling like Allen has, but certainly in that 5-10 range. I placed a SB bet on the Bills this year based on the jump as well as them adding some key pieces and being very well coached.
Are the Giants winning the SB next year? Nope (and I believe the would have been a darkhorse candidate if they had squeeked in this year and nailed their offseason moves). But I see a lot of similarities between us and the Bills from last year, including a QB who I think makes the jump. If that win total comes out 8.5 or less (which it most likely will) I'll be hammering the over.
For a guy who I find pretty insightful and bright about football, there are some very strange conclusions in this post.
The number one responsibility for the QB is to score points. That's it in a nutshell. Figure out a way to get into the endzone first or settle for a FG second. If our QB can't produce at least, and I'm being kind here because this NFL practically does everything possible for you to score TDs, 25 TDs than he should be (1) a permanent back-up or (2) out of the league. It's a cliche, but totally apt, but the QB always touches the ball on offense, so he has to be points producer.
I don't care how ordinary our WRs are (I actually don't think they are that bad) or how ordinary our OL is (which they probably were), Jones needs to produce considerably more than 11 TDs. One word describes this type of production for the 6th pick - embarrassing.
I'm surprised more people don't use that word.
You know what? I'd rather have a player like Jamis Winston. A guy who will get you 30+ TDs and 30 INTs. At least I'm getting into the damn endzone.
These Allen comps really need to stop. Jones is not in his class as a player and athlete.
Right now Gardner Minshew would be better for this team. For a 6th round pick, he's showing a lot better than Jones.
Let’s see if that turns out to be true, next year should prove that.
But let’s not dismiss that Jones actually maybe benefited from Shurmur, and his dramatic drop off in productivity was because of Schuplinski.
It’s obvious to everyone on planet earth that Jones needs to throw more than 10 touchdown passes. So, let’s shut the fuck up about that.
It’s also factually accurate that you can win Super Bowls with quarterbacks who throw 28-33 on a consistent basis. Some of the very best franchise QBs of the past 20 years have been around that number their whole career. I mean hell - everyone loves to beat their dicks to Lamar Jackson and he can’t even throw the ball down the field! But hey he scores a bunch of cute plays so yay Ravens.
Again, the difference between a 2 yard rushing TD and a passing TD means absolute shit to me. I’d rather have a team that can run it down your throat and pass it all over the field when they need to, instead of a team that throws the ball on every down. The very best teams that win the playoffs can run the ball, and they have a franchise QB who can throw it on a consistent basis and make all the throws, and can play winning football. I’ll point to Eli Manning’s best “statistical season” he ever had, we sucked. We went 6-10. His best years were 07-11 and even though they weren’t amazing stats wise he was an assassin out there and he had full control of everything. He was absolutely a top 10 QB during that time. But yeah - he threw all those TDs to Beckham during the late years but guess what it didn’t matter because we sucked.
Again, unless your name is Mahomes or Rodgers, 40 TD is not the norm. Some of the best best franchise QBs of the last 20 years have been around 30 their whole career.
On a championship contender, I want a QB who has full control of the offense, a guy who is tough and a guy who can make all he throws all over the field when he needs to, depending on the game plan. That’s what Eli Manning was and that’s what I think DJ can be, but he has played 26 games.
Let’s see if that turns out to be true, next year should prove that.
But let’s not dismiss that Jones actually maybe benefited from Shurmur, and his dramatic drop off in productivity was because of Schuplinski.
Good point on Shurmur. Down the stretch this year, Lock started to play much better with Denver. Perhaps Shurmur is starting to pay dividends with that project now.
Terps literally just showed you that the four teams remaining in the playoffs were the top four passing teams in the league.
Good for you to step in like that.
Look forward to seeing you suggest the same to Fmic and his kind. I am sure there will be plenty of opportunities.
Let’s see if that turns out to be true, next year should prove that.
But let’s not dismiss that Jones actually maybe benefited from Shurmur, and his dramatic drop off in productivity was because of Schuplinski.
I'm just saying what I thought I saw. I remeber very early in the season remarking this to my Cowboys buddy I watch games with. Around week 5 or 6 I was ready to start looking at QBs for next year IF he didn't start to put it together by end of season. Something clicked in the 2nd half of the Bucs game when he finally threw a ball away. Right now the biggest thing holding him back from tossing 30tds is talent I believe. Either protection or skill guys. This team is built with a running philosophy so I don't expect to get any different lineman anytime soon, but this is a great year to add skill guys. People are also discoutnign the fact that the game plan this year was to shorten to the fuck out of games and that affects the stat line as well. I'd be curious how many drives we had, has to be lowest 5 and quite posssibly the least.
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Zeke an idiot. I can see why some would disagree with his stance on Jones, but I certainly don't consider him of idiot status.
Good for you to step in like that.
Look forward to seeing you suggest the same to Fmic and his kind. I am sure there will be plenty of opportunities.
Oh and tell Bubbamojo too.
Your "confidence" that he will emerge with the "right scheme" isn't enough evidence. Sorry. The QB should make the scheme work. It shouldn't be the scheme that makes the QB work. This kid doesn't have it. We see what he is. Sure, put the perfect team around him, and they'll win. But that's not sustainable.
In the NFL the bet you want to make is to get an elite QB. If you don't have an elite QB you need all the systems to be great: the pass rush, the secondary, the run D, the O-line. If you don't have an elite QB then you need a giant parlay bet to come through. Is that what you want to root for?
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Zeke an idiot. I can see why some would disagree with his stance on Jones, but I certainly don't consider him of idiot status.
Fair point, and it was not right for me to make it personal.
But I do genuinely think that ZA didn't realize/remember exactly how mediocre DJ's passing stats were this past season when he threw out the threshold that he thought most Giants fans would or would not approve of (28 TDs/16 INTs).
I don't think he is an idiot, but I do think that particular post was a full notch below the level at which he typically writes.
GD, I take stuff here personally as well sometimes. I read a lot of your posts and Zeke's posts, I find you both to be pretty reasonable which is why I hardly ever engage with either one of you.
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year, but I'm confident he makes the jump as a 3rd year QB in the second year of the offense. I also think we see a different offensive playcall set once we get Saquon back. His presense will help the pass blocking, can't just tee off when you need to account for him. Garrett has had TWO receivers in top 10 ypc practically every year he was in Dallas I've been told, where was that this year? Sidelined due to personnel limitations.
Your "confidence" that he will emerge with the "right scheme" isn't enough evidence. Sorry. The QB should make the scheme work. It shouldn't be the scheme that makes the QB work. This kid doesn't have it. We see what he is. Sure, put the perfect team around him, and they'll win. But that's not sustainable.
In the NFL the bet you want to make is to get an elite QB. If you don't have an elite QB you need all the systems to be great: the pass rush, the secondary, the run D, the O-line. If you don't have an elite QB then you need a giant parlay bet to come through. Is that what you want to root for?
Good post. And it's going to take a very deft hand, or an inordinate amount of luck, to build that team with all of the "systems" you cite.
I don’t think anyone would argue against that.
So now let’s assess the odds and to what degree these outcomes are likely and immediate. Let’s say some of those things don’t happen or happen to a lesser degree, then can Jones be a productive quarterback?
If we assume improvements can develop on a spectrum, and the external factors from Jones trend toward likely and not miraculous, I think it’s fair to say Jones himself needs to be much, much better for the Giants to be a contender.
If you have a team like TB who is 8-8 and being held back by the QB play, then a guy like Brady coming in turns it all around. They were one player away, everything else was set.
I am going to bet that if next year the Giants OL plays as well as GB, and the WR's are as good as GB, then Daniel Jones suddenly looks like a franchise guy.
This is the challenge for GM's. Players are in all different situations, you can't just look at factors like team success to judge them.
What about assessing receivers with a crap QB throwing to them?
Points Allowed: TB-8, NYG-9, KC-11, GB-13, BUF-16
Pass Y/A: GB-3, BUF-4, KC-6, TB-8, NYG-26
Pass TD: GB-1, TB-2, BUF-3, KC-4, NYG-32
Rush Y/A: GB-6, KC-11, NYG-13, BUF-21, TB-25
Rush TD: GB-16, BUF-17, TB-18, KC-22, NYG-23
Winning in the NFL in 2021 is about throwing the football to create points. Mara/Gettleman/Garrett do not operate this way.
This is a Great Post...great points. This chases me off thoughts to sign LW and DT and then Draft Micah. I might consider ONLY LW, with the other two slots traded for the Offensive side of the ball.
To the DJ questions... The Attack plan and the Arsenal on Offense has been minimal. They need 4-5 additional Scary Players on Offense...more speed at attack positions
-2019 he was the #2 QB thru camp behind Eli
-2019 he takes over and outside of his fumbles he is good for a rookie by any standard
-2020 Covid hits. A new offense is installed. No real training camp to build on, no pre-season games
-2020 his OL is again terrible for the majority of the season; he loses his only playmaker early in Barkley; and, he gets hurt a second year in a row.
If in year 3 he has a full camp in the same offensive system; if Jones gets a true #1 WR via UFA; if we draft playmakers; and, if the OL truly gels as I believe it will, we will know by literally mid-season if we have a true #1 QB that can win you the SB.
I believe Jones is "good enough" if he has "enough" talent around him to WIN with consistently. We lack top end offensive talent and we miss both a solid ER and 2nd CB to get to the next level defensively.
-2019 he was the #2 QB thru camp behind Eli
-2019 he takes over and outside of his fumbles he is good for a rookie by any standard
-2020 Covid hits. A new offense is installed. No real training camp to build on, no pre-season games
-2020 his OL is again terrible for the majority of the season; he loses his only playmaker early in Barkley; and, he gets hurt a second year in a row.
If in year 3 he has a full camp in the same offensive system; if Jones gets a true #1 WR via UFA; if we draft playmakers; and, if the OL truly gels as I believe it will, we will know by literally mid-season if we have a true #1 QB that can win you the SB.
I believe Jones is "good enough" if he has "enough" talent around him to WIN with consistently. We lack top end offensive talent and we miss both a solid ER and 2nd CB to get to the next level defensively.
He’s going to get another shot, and fingers crossed you’re right, but your timeline leaves out his 3 years at Duke, when despite working with pre-eminent QB whisperer Cutliffe, he was plagued by fumbles and didn’t light the world on fire either (like most every other elite QB did in college — see, for example, Trey Lance, who in his one full season as a raw 18 year old, had 42 TDs, ran for 1,100 yards, and get this ... had zero turnovers ... that’s right, his line is 42-0). Through 60 games Jones has 80 turnovers, which is obviously one of the reasons why he wasn’t looked at as an elite prospect.
“At some point, you are what your record says you are” has to come into play here at some point. Stats and a winning record do matter at some point. Hope you guys are right about Jones, because with the Giants inertia and inability to look outside of their classic pocket passer/Eli model, he’ll of course be behind center week 1.
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In comment 15131316 Zeke's Alibi said:
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year, but I'm confident he makes the jump as a 3rd year QB in the second year of the offense. I also think we see a different offensive playcall set once we get Saquon back. His presense will help the pass blocking, can't just tee off when you need to account for him. Garrett has had TWO receivers in top 10 ypc practically every year he was in Dallas I've been told, where was that this year? Sidelined due to personnel limitations.
Your "confidence" that he will emerge with the "right scheme" isn't enough evidence. Sorry. The QB should make the scheme work. It shouldn't be the scheme that makes the QB work. This kid doesn't have it. We see what he is. Sure, put the perfect team around him, and they'll win. But that's not sustainable.
In the NFL the bet you want to make is to get an elite QB. If you don't have an elite QB you need all the systems to be great: the pass rush, the secondary, the run D, the O-line. If you don't have an elite QB then you need a giant parlay bet to come through. Is that what you want to root for?
Good post. And it's going to take a very deft hand, or an inordinate amount of luck, to build that team with all of the "systems" you cite.
or it will take an unlikely stroke of luck. I don't think folks are thinking this through. You can't build a consistent winner in this league with even a top 15-20 QB. It is probably hard with the #12 QB. If you don't have a star QB you should always be looking for one. The Giants must evaluate Trey Lance. If they decide he doesn't have the stuff to be elite - ok I can live with that. But just to roll into the season with DJ without considering other options is stupid.
Jones did much of the same shit in 2019 that Herbert did in 2020. Ok Herbert had better numbers but not SO much better that he’s completely exalted around here while Jones is considered total crap. Think about that for a second. How can Herbert be fool proof lock stock perfect while jones oh my god he’s trash. Wtf???
You have a guy in Herbert who threw for about 1000 more and added about 10 more tds while playing 3-4 more games than jones did in year 1. Ok. Cool. He’s a nice looking player. I’ll give you that. He also had better wrs I think that’s fair. And despite the ekeler injury had him about the same amount of time jones has Barkley and he had some talented rb talent behind ekeler. He also had hunter Henry who many here said is so much better than Engram. We know the chargers wrs are a lot better than ours.
Somehow Herbert is can’t miss but the giants are fools for sticking with jones. Ok then.
And if herBert, while playing for a new HC in 2021 sees his numbers dip but maybe wins a game or two more? Will you then kill SD for sticking with him? I’m sure you’d exhibit the same restraint.....
Jones and Herbert aren't in the same league. One's a guy you build around, the other is a guy you rationalize because he threw 11 TDs in a season.
Another question, if you could bet on any quarterback in the NFL to win a Super Bowl, say within the next five years, would you put your money on Jones? What would the odds look like for that bet against the other NFL QBs? Jones would have to be the longest of long shots. There’s guys in college that you’d put better odds on.
Jones and Herbert aren't in the same league. One's a guy you build around, the other is a guy you rationalize because he threw 11 TDs in a season.
Every time I make a point you and some others generalize to deflect the point. Enjoy your weekend. I’m out.
Qbs are either great or bad. No middle ground. No developmental phases. No highs and lows. No mitigating factors. And it’s always linear.
Fucking wack jobs. You win.
So if Herbert takes a step down next year I guess we will bury him too.
I’m done don’t waste you’re time as I won’t read anymore. I’ll go visit some other thread. Hopefully someone saves this one like the old Eli one from 2009.
I just think it’s odd that there’s such a fine line between an amazingly good young qb (your words not mine) in Herbert and the comically dumb giants (not mine) for moving forward with jones.
We shall see. Maybe judge wants a new qb anyway. I doubt it though. And I think jones will be fine next year because I think he turned a corner over his last 5-6 starts this season. With another year under this staff and some more offensive seasoning in place jones will be fine.
Peace.
Herbert was 6-9 as a rookie.
His productivity stats:
4436 pass yards / 31 TDs / 10 INTs / 234 rush yards / 5 TDs
His efficiency stats:
YPA 7.3 / TD% 5.2 / Int% 1.7 / FMB% .01
Jones was 3-9.
His productivity stats:
3027 pass yards/ 24 TDs/ 12 INTs/ 279 rush yards/ 2 TDs
His efficiency stats:
YPA 6.6/ TD% 5.2/ INT% 2.6/ FMB% .03
This is just another clickbait article without any facts to support whether the Giants are making a Jones decision.
Another slow sports news day
So you’re positive or negative view on Jones is a twofer.
So you’re positive or negative view on Jones is a twofer.
I’m not sure we can know what Judge really thinks of Jones. His comments strike me as mostly coach speak which you’d expect (and want) from any good head coach. It’s not like Judge would ever say publicly if he has doubts about Jones. Logically, why would Judge give a hoot about Jones? He didn’t draft him, he hasn’t won with him and remember too that Judge spent a lot of time around Tawmy GOAT. Now maybe Judge thinks Jones is another Ugg model, but maybe also he sees the delta between DJ8 and a proven champ. I doubt Judge is committed to much beyond winning football games.
So you’re positive or negative view on Jones is a twofer.
That sentiment goes too far. Judge has made enough positive comments that he has Jones’ back. But don’t imagine that intertwining is anything more than for 2021 if Jones doesn’t step up.