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New York Giants 2020 Positional Review: Wide Receivers

Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/22/2021 12:04 pm
FYI...


New York Giants 2020 Positional Review: Wide Receivers - ( New Window )
I didn't expect it to be more than 1 paragraph LOL  
Victor in CT : 1/22/2021 12:10 pm : link
Slayton and Shepard are support players. They need a real #1. I think both these guys could be productive if they get a true #1. Depth also a huge problem obviously. Maybe Pettis can help there.
Another  
AcidTest : 1/22/2021 12:19 pm : link
utterly desultory position group. I would cut or not resign everyone except Slayton and Shepard. Core, Pettis, and Sills can come to camp. Everyone else is gone.

There is no question that losing Barkley negatively affecting our receiving corp. But his loss does not excuse them only scoring nine touchdowns all season. The biggest problem as you note is that except for Slayton they can't separate. Someone posted that our WRs got the least separation of any in the league.

Slayton played with an injured foot, but had six drops. He also had difficulty beating press man coverage. Teams not surprisingly adjusted because of his success as a rookie.
I challenge PFF/Next Gen/whoever...  
Dnew15 : 1/22/2021 12:32 pm : link
to compile data for a "Percent Open per Route" stat. On any given route, what percentage of time is a pass catcher able to create the space (whatever the designation for yards away from the nearest defender to be "open" is made - be it 2 or 2.5 yrds) needed to be considered open.

I also challenge them to come up with a stat calculating how frequently a QB targets a pass catcher on a given play based on that players "open-ness". For example, is the QB constantly targeting players that are "not" or "the least" open.

Mainly because I hate the separation stat as currently compiled - yards away from the nearest defender on a targeted pass. I find it to be utterly useless.
Reading this,  
CT Charlie : 1/22/2021 12:49 pm : link
I found myself thinking that even at their age and with their injuries, we'd have completed more passes if Hakeem Nicks, Plaxico Burress, and Mario Manningham had suited up.
After reading this thread, I think the Giants' receivers need  
Marty in Albany : 1/22/2021 12:55 pm : link
separation--complete separation--from the Giants.
RE: Reading this,  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/22/2021 12:56 pm : link
In comment 15130850 CT Charlie said:
Quote:
I found myself thinking that even at their age and with their injuries, we'd have completed more passes if Hakeem Nicks, Plaxico Burress, and Mario Manningham had suited up.


This is what bugs me when people try to compare Eli with Daniel Jones. Look who Eli had around him in just 2005 alone.
RE: RE: Reading this,  
Doubledeuce22 : 1/22/2021 1:30 pm : link
In comment 15130857 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15130850 CT Charlie said:


Quote:


I found myself thinking that even at their age and with their injuries, we'd have completed more passes if Hakeem Nicks, Plaxico Burress, and Mario Manningham had suited up.



This is what bugs me when people try to compare Eli with Daniel Jones. Look who Eli had around him in just 2005 alone.


You can’t be serious here. Eli made those WRs soooo much better than they were. Daniel Jones doesn’t make anyone better around him to this point. If Eli in his prime played this past season, Shepard would have had close to 100 catches and Slayton would have had double digit TDs. To date, Daniel Jones is not even a fraction of what Eli was.
Doubledeuce22  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/22/2021 1:51 pm : link
Yeah, I am serious.

Eli Manning did not make Amani Toomer. Or Plaxico Burress. Or Tiki Barber. Or David Diehl. Or Rich Seubert. Or Shaun O'Hara. Or Chris Snee. Or Kareem McKenize. Or Jeremy Shockey.

We also saw Daniel Jones throw for 24 touchdowns as a rookie with largely horse crap around him.
RE: RE: Reading this,  
Go Terps : 1/22/2021 1:52 pm : link
In comment 15130857 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15130850 CT Charlie said:


Quote:


I found myself thinking that even at their age and with their injuries, we'd have completed more passes if Hakeem Nicks, Plaxico Burress, and Mario Manningham had suited up.



This is what bugs me when people try to compare Eli with Daniel Jones. Look who Eli had around him in just 2005 alone.


The 2005 receivers also had the benefit of Eli throwing to them. These guys don't.

Don't forget that Garrett is designing the offense; he's notorious for being unable to scheme guys open, and for placing his offense in 3rd and long situations.
Doubledeuce22  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/22/2021 1:54 pm : link
In 2005, with those players around him, Eli threw for 24 touchdowns and 17 interceptions. He only completed 53 percent of his passes.

In 2019, Jones threw 24 touchdown passes, 12 interceptions, and completed 62 percent of his passes.

Look at the 2005 New York Giants roster and the 2019 New York Giants roster.

Your argument simply holds no water.
Go Terps  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/22/2021 1:55 pm : link
The bulk of the Giants fan base still felt Eli Manning was a loser as late December 2007, his fourth year.

Remember BBI after the Vikings game that year? You know the one where Eli threw three pick 6s?
I've said this before  
Biteymax22 : 1/22/2021 1:56 pm : link
People think we can add a #1 to this position group and be fine. We need multiple upgrades at WR.

I don't want to use the word "overhaul" because I think Slayton and Shepard are worth having around, but I wouldn't mind seeing them plus 3-4 new guys next year.

CJ Board remaining on the roster all year was also mind boggling to me. I know he played the gunner role for us at points but didn't seem particularly good at it.
RE: Go Terps  
Go Terps : 1/22/2021 2:01 pm : link
In comment 15130919 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
The bulk of the Giants fan base still felt Eli Manning was a loser as late December 2007, his fourth year.

Remember BBI after the Vikings game that year? You know the one where Eli threw three pick 6s?


I do. And even with all that in context, I think it's clear Jones isn't in Eli's universe as a quarterback. That's no sin on Jones's part. It's an unfair comparison to make.

Compare Jones to his contemporaries. How does he look?

I don't think the receivers are a problem.
I love  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/22/2021 2:01 pm : link
Eli, but one can legitimately argue that he only really "elevated" the play of those around him during the 2007 playoffs and during the 2011 season.

Eli didn't "elevate" the play around him for the ENTIRE second half of his career (2012-2019).
This is starting to be a chicken or the egg  
Dnew15 : 1/22/2021 2:31 pm : link
argument.

Does the QB make the collective parts of the offense OR does the collective parts of the offense make the QB.

The world may never know.
I'll say this  
Go Terps : 1/22/2021 2:34 pm : link
The Giants could go out and sign Allen Robinson AND Kenny Golladay and the problems will still persist.

The solution to this problem lies in solving the scheme and the quarterback.
RE: I love  
Victor in CT : 1/22/2021 2:39 pm : link
In comment 15130930 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Eli, but one can legitimately argue that he only really "elevated" the play of those around him during the 2007 playoffs and during the 2011 season.

Eli didn't "elevate" the play around him for the ENTIRE second half of his career (2012-2019).


I love "I don't think the receivers are a problem." more.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/22/2021 2:41 pm : link
Bereft of talent. Man, we need a serious, serious upgrade @ WR.
I think it was also the perfect storm last year.....  
Simms11 : 1/22/2021 4:03 pm : link
Oline was still a work in progress, DJ still learning a new scheme and tended to hold the ball too long at times too. There were times where the WRs were open, DJ made a good throw and they’d drop it! I think having a dependable guy that can catch and add some YAC would benefit DJ immensely.
RE: I think it was also the perfect storm last year.....  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/22/2021 4:14 pm : link
In comment 15131076 Simms11 said:
Quote:
Oline was still a work in progress, DJ still learning a new scheme and tended to hold the ball too long at times too. There were times where the WRs were open, DJ made a good throw and they’d drop it! I think having a dependable guy that can catch and add some YAC would benefit DJ immensely.


Problem is that Shepard is has some issue keeping him out each season. Slayton only really did have less than 200 yards after the bye. And Tate really did fall off a cliff. It's not a mirage.
You look at the good teams in the league  
GiantsRage2007 : 1/22/2021 4:49 pm : link
And especially those still playing this weekend and the talent gap at wr is tremendous

We really need 1 legit wr FA (or 2) signing and 2 draft picks at wr (preferably 1 in rd 1)

Slayton can be a 3rd or 4th receiver and Shepard can be in the slot.

I think we really need to be starting 2 wr next season who aren't on this roster right now.

RE: You look at the good teams in the league  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/22/2021 4:52 pm : link
In comment 15131122 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
And especially those still playing this weekend and the talent gap at wr is tremendous

We really need 1 legit wr FA (or 2) signing and 2 draft picks at wr (preferably 1 in rd 1)

Slayton can be a 3rd or 4th receiver and Shepard can be in the slot.

I think we really need to be starting 2 wr next season who aren't on this roster right now.


Slayton might be a #2. But he's got to get better. He did score 8 TD's as a rookie and look good doing it.
The combination of too many stop routes  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/22/2021 4:57 pm : link
And not having Barkley allowing safeties to play deeper really affected a mediocre group of receivers. Putting it on Jones is just a joke.
This should be a quick read...  
sb from NYT Forum : 1/22/2021 5:28 pm : link
...


The Giants receiving corp is better than given credit  
gogiants : 1/22/2021 5:54 pm : link
On 3rd/4th down the Giants top three receivers averaged a 50.6% conversion percentage. Compared to what is regarded as the top ten receiving corps in the league that came in at seventh. It was considerably better than Carolina, Dallas and Arizona.

On all downs the Giants corp averaged a 39.8% conversion. That was just outside the average of the top ten receiving corps in the league. They were just under Carolina (40.4%), Bengals (40.1%) and Cardinals (39.9%)

Compared to Giant receivers since 1994 (stats available) Golden Tate is second in 3rd/4th down conversions to targets (50.9%). Only Steve Smith had a higher percent (51.2%). Shepard is 6th with 48.5% on 161 targets. He is right behind Victor Cruz (49.1%) on same number of targets. Slayton comes in tenth at 43.6% on 55 targets. He is right above Amani Toomer who had 43.4% on 422 targets.

Not saying our corp now is better than those guys but the way people here talk you'd think we had Moe, Larry and Curly out there.

I'd like to get DeVonta Smith or Rashod Bateman in the draft. But I like our guys. They are better than what a lot of other teams have.
RE: The Giants receiving corp is better than given credit  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/22/2021 6:11 pm : link
In comment 15131196 gogiants said:
Quote:
On 3rd/4th down the Giants top three receivers averaged a 50.6% conversion percentage. Compared to what is regarded as the top ten receiving corps in the league that came in at seventh. It was considerably better than Carolina, Dallas and Arizona.

On all downs the Giants corp averaged a 39.8% conversion. That was just outside the average of the top ten receiving corps in the league. They were just under Carolina (40.4%), Bengals (40.1%) and Cardinals (39.9%)

Compared to Giant receivers since 1994 (stats available) Golden Tate is second in 3rd/4th down conversions to targets (50.9%). Only Steve Smith had a higher percent (51.2%). Shepard is 6th with 48.5% on 161 targets. He is right behind Victor Cruz (49.1%) on same number of targets. Slayton comes in tenth at 43.6% on 55 targets. He is right above Amani Toomer who had 43.4% on 422 targets.

Not saying our corp now is better than those guys but the way people here talk you'd think we had Moe, Larry and Curly out there.

I'd like to get DeVonta Smith or Rashod Bateman in the draft. But I like our guys. They are better than what a lot of other teams have.


The caught NINE touchdowns all year. Slayton - our #1 - had 12 catches after the bye week. He had one touchdown after the opener. Tate didn't even have 400 yards receiving. C'mon.
The NY Giant receivers (WRs and TEs)  
LBH15 : 1/22/2021 6:19 pm : link
are absolutely one of the worst combined set of targets in the entire league, if not the worst.

They don't have good hands, very little size and strength, small catch radius, nothing special in term of yards after the catch, terrible red zone threats. Our top threat (Engram) is a turnover machine. In fact, the only thing you can say about them that is above average is their speed, yet they get very little separation.

I think i would go with Moe, Larry and Curly.
Bottom line  
bc4life : 1/22/2021 8:15 pm : link
They need a # 1 wr. Slayton is very good but is a # 2.

Shepard rounding out the trio - Pettis and some others will fill out the rest.

Not a fan of paying big $ for a wr in FA. Hold your water - draft wisely
and most important  
bc4life : 1/22/2021 8:17 pm : link
finishing the O-Line rebuild, becoming an effective running team will yield big benefits in passing game
The Giants might  
JoeyBigBlue : 1/22/2021 10:12 pm : link
Need to spend 2 draft picks on WRs this year. This group is absolute trash.
Slayton faded this year.....  
Simms11 : 1/22/2021 10:18 pm : link
I don’t know what happened to him. I think teams were pressing him more and he couldn’t get a good release. He also dropped some balls that should have been caught. He’s a borderline #2 right now. Can he improve, yes he can. It took Amani Toomer a number of years before he started to assert himself and develop. That said, I think the Giants will bring in two quality WRs, one in Free Agency and another in the draft.

Lastly, I just want to add that Garrett and Judge will have to evaluate the offensive scheme and determine what worked and what needs to improve, in terms of scheme. In Judges last interview, he mentioned that they would be looking at those things and so hopefully, that aspect will improve and give our receivers a chance to succeed, whomever is starting.
Absolutely terrible job for the most part by the WRs this season.  
Dave in Hoboken : 1/22/2021 10:44 pm : link
I still like Slayton, but man did he regress from his rookie season. Was it due to him being banged up the majority season? If so, was that the only reason, or was it alittle bit due to being banged up and alittle bit of simple regression? Either way, not ideal. Hopefully, he can stay healthy next year and pick up where he left off in his rookie year and continue to grow from there.

Sterling Shepard, best in the slot and decent at best. Being banged up/injured and missing time has certainly increased over the past couple of seasons for him. Could be a concussion away from a serious situation. Best in the slot. Finished strong in the last game of the season vs. Dallas. Still, more ideal in the slot.

Golden Tate; done here.

Serious, serious upgrades are needed at WR no matter who the QB is.
curious did Giants fans always jump ship on a QB  
Rory : 1/22/2021 10:46 pm : link
just after 2 seasons? Daniel Jones is 23 years old

Fully expect Giants to prioritize WR in FA and the draft, its much to obvious for them not to. With a legit #1 WR for defenses to have to cover Shep/Slayton will post much better numbers

That also includes an offensive scheme that doesnt revolve around 1 player.
I'm with Eric,  
BigBlueNH : 1/23/2021 12:02 am : link
our receivers, as a unit compared to those on other teams, SUCK. Jones has shown plenty and can't be fairly judged until he gets a better set of targets. I believe Judge/Gettleman are well aware of this, and we will invest heavily in FA and draft.
RE: Doubledeuce22  
Doubledeuce22 : 1/23/2021 4:05 am : link
In comment 15130911 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Yeah, I am serious.

Eli Manning did not make Amani Toomer. Or Plaxico Burress. Or Tiki Barber. Or David Diehl. Or Rich Seubert. Or Shaun O'Hara. Or Chris Snee. Or Kareem McKenize. Or Jeremy Shockey.

We also saw Daniel Jones throw for 24 touchdowns as a rookie with largely horse crap around him.


Eric, I think you’re forgetting how crappy the O Line was in 2011 when he won his 2nd Super Bowl or how he made WRs like Smith, Manningham, Cruz, Nicks, Ballard, Boss, Pascoe, Randle, and Manningham competent WRs. The O line was not good at all in 2011. Horrible C, a bad LT, and aging LG and RT.
RE: Doubledeuce22  
Doubledeuce22 : 1/23/2021 4:12 am : link
In comment 15130916 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In 2005, with those players around him, Eli threw for 24 touchdowns and 17 interceptions. He only completed 53 percent of his passes.

In 2019, Jones threw 24 touchdown passes, 12 interceptions, and completed 62 percent of his passes.

Look at the 2005 New York Giants roster and the 2019 New York Giants roster.

Your argument simply holds no water.


Your argument is ridiculous. You’re comparing 2 completely different NFLs. The NFL now requires a starting QB that’s above average to throw for over 4,000 yards. The NFL you’re referring to required them to throw for 3,000 yards. The eye test is all I need to see that Daniel Jones is not a starting QB in this league. The guy has ZERO vision or pocket presence and simply cannot move the ball up abs down the field. Go take a look at Russell Wilson. The guy has had horrible lines almost his entire career and still can effectively move the ball and until Metcalf came you can argue that he had no true #1 WR. If we had Lockett on this team, you’d all be complaining that he’s not a #1 WR because our inept QB couldn’t get him the ball. Sorry, I just flat out disagree. The QB is the problem and you’ll all see it after he has another crappy season and we move on from him. Hopefully DG brings in a competent backup this season so we can at least win some games with a good D.
We need playmakers, PERIOD  
SGMen : 1/23/2021 4:59 am : link
We scare no one with this group.
I believe if Barkley alone had played 16 games we do in fact win the division. Why? Because some of those 5 yard runs and missed 3rd and 5 or less would have been converted and more Td's. His speed scared teams.

I think at #11 we take an offensive playmaker, perhaps the FL TE Pettis (sp?).
Round 2 may see the best OG on the board come off IF in fact we part ways with Zeitler.
Round 3 brings a CB or RB (yes, we need a good RB behind Barkley as Gallman is just oK in my book).
Taking a TE  
Doubledeuce22 : 1/23/2021 8:09 am : link
At #11 reminds me of another stupid move that this organization made. What was it? Oh yeah, taking a TE at number 23. Please name me a TE that was drafted in the top half of the first round that ended up being a great pick. Gronk was drafted in the 2nd, Kelce was drafted in the 3rd, Kittle was drafted in the 5th, Ertz was drafted in the 2nd. Drafting a TE this high is the equivalent of taking Barkley #2. No reason to waste such a high pick on them when you can get guys just as good if not better in the later rounds.
RE: Absolutely terrible job for the most part by the WRs this season.  
BigBlueShock : 1/23/2021 8:56 am : link
In comment 15131412 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
I still like Slayton, but man did he regress from his rookie season. Was it due to him being banged up the majority season? If so, was that the only reason, or was it alittle bit due to being banged up and alittle bit of simple regression? Either way, not ideal. Hopefully, he can stay healthy next year and pick up where he left off in his rookie year and continue to grow from there.

Sterling Shepard, best in the slot and decent at best. Being banged up/injured and missing time has certainly increased over the past couple of seasons for him. Could be a concussion away from a serious situation. Best in the slot. Finished strong in the last game of the season vs. Dallas. Still, more ideal in the slot.

Golden Tate; done here.

Serious, serious upgrades are needed at WR no matter who the QB is.

Slaytons production is likely a combination of things. He was dealing with shoulder and foot injuries the second half of the season. I’m not sure how much they were affecting him but I do know there were several times during games you could see him laboring and even come off the field at times. The other factor is that Garrett runs an archaic offense that doesn’t put his players in a position to succeed. For example, The Giants were at the very bottom of the league in pre snap motion. All of the top offensive teams in the league were at the top of pre snap motion plays per game. It may seem like a minor thing but it’s really not. Teams use pre snap motion to create mismatches, diagnose the defense and most importantly to a guy like Slayton it prevents teams from jamming the receiver at the line. Slayton struggles mightily in this area. Pre snap motion is a staple in today’s offenses around the league and Garrett just doesn’t use it enough. The offense also doesn’t stress getting the ball downfield enough and doesn’t have enough patterns that allow for RAC.

Slayton is not a #1 WR and his his weaknesses. He’s also got his strengths and it’s up to the OC to put these players in the best situation possible. Garrett needs to self scout and improve in this area. It’s not 2010 anymore. The game has evolved offensively. It’s time for Garrett to catch up
Doubledeuce22  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/23/2021 9:10 am : link
Yes, the OL was deteriorating in 2011. But that was still a veteran OL and arguably better than the 2020 OL.

Regardless, as I already mentioned above, the only time Eli obviously elevated the play of those around him were the 2007 playoffs and the entire 2011 season (his 8th season in the NFL). 2011 is the outlier in Eli's career. He never played that well again.

You are arguing that there is no comparison between Eli and Daniel Jones, and I would argue that Jones' rookie season was infinitely better than Eli's rookie season.

Eli's second season was infinitely better than Jones' second season. But again, look at who Eli had as his supporting cast in 2005.
Stats is a very poor gauge to look at when comparing  
Doubledeuce22 : 1/23/2021 9:38 am : link
2 completely different NFLs in my opinion. Look at 2005. Tom Brady led the league with 4,100 passing yards. He would have ranked 11th in this years NFL. Peyton Manning didn’t even throw for 4,000 yards and he was arguably the best QB. He would have ranked 17th in passing yards. The bottom line in today’s NFL is if you can’t move the ball up and down the field, you’re a bad QB. I get that we have to give Jones one more year and I hope I’m wrong, but in my opinion he’s nothing more than a backup QB in this league.
"In the end, this group simply proved to be a bottom tier group...  
M.S. : 1/23/2021 11:19 am : link

"...perhaps even the worst in the NFL."

Yep. And no perhaps about it.
WR write up by Eric is spot on  
Rick in Dallas : 1/23/2021 12:17 pm : link
That’s why I am calling for at least 2 WR picks in the draft this year.
Slayton to me is a number 3 WR. Shepard is a good slot WR. Major upgrade is needed this offseason.
Does anyone know why we didn't seriously pursue WRs last year,  
Angel Eyes : 1/23/2021 5:34 pm : link
in FA or the draft outside of undrafted players? Were we satisfied with what we had?
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