Makes too much sense. The Pats have nothing. They wont bring back Cam and can't have thought much of Stidham given how little he saw the field. Kraft and Bill both want to be competitive NOW, and who better than Stafford will be available? They could still draft a QB if one they like falls to them, and he could sit for a couple years.
Not necessarily. And I say that only because everyone knew Patricia was a dead man waking. He and no GM shouldn't have made the call on a potential franchise QB. It was better in theory to let the new regime make that call. Who was available when they picked last year? If Herbert was (I think he was) then that is where practice and theory don't match up. They shouldn't have passed on him if they did.
with a healthy franchise. He wanted to be the one to lead the Lions out of the abyss (my words) there were in. I think they'll go right back to being perennial top 5 drafters.
RE: RE: RE: Patriots, Steelers, Redskins, Chicago, San Fran
And Stafford is from Tampa so if Brady wins it all and retires maybe the Bucs are bidders. A bit of a stretch there.
Is going to be really confusing for you to go back and forth from LBH15 and Googs. Looking forward to it!
Not following you moojo.
Suuure thing. Just remember to double check who you are logged on as first. Don’t want to get tripped up. This board was becoming stale with redundant talk; this new development might make it interesting for a bit! LBH15 = Jimmy Googs.
Still, I'd love for Stafford to go somewhere and compete. He has earned it.
That is what didn't make sense last year. Patricia shouldn't have been retained last year. They gave it another shot but I wasn't sure what they were shooting for. They had a hard on for Caserio and waited for him. That was probably the main reason they passed on the QBs. I wasn't high on Tua last year especially with his injury history so I can't kill them for that but Herbert just seemed like a much better pro prospect. I remember watching him during the draft process and feeling like Oregon held him back with having him always out of the shotgun. He looked really good taking drops. He was very intriguing. And the only reason he dropped was because he had a down year. That will hurt.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Patriots, Steelers, Redskins, Chicago, San Fran
And Stafford is from Tampa so if Brady wins it all and retires maybe the Bucs are bidders. A bit of a stretch there.
Is going to be really confusing for you to go back and forth from LBH15 and Googs. Looking forward to it!
Not following you moojo.
Suuure thing. Just remember to double check who you are logged on as first. Don’t want to get tripped up. This board was becoming stale with redundant talk; this new development might make it interesting for a bit! LBH15 = Jimmy Googs.
And Stafford is from Tampa so if Brady wins it all and retires maybe the Bucs are bidders. A bit of a stretch there.
Is going to be really confusing for you to go back and forth from LBH15 and Googs. Looking forward to it!
Not following you moojo.
Suuure thing. Just remember to double check who you are logged on as first. Don’t want to get tripped up. This board was becoming stale with redundant talk; this new development might make it interesting for a bit! LBH15 = Jimmy Googs.
You seem tripped up yourself.
lol, ok ok. Not going to waste my Saturday evening calling you out. Nobody is buying it, though. Have a good weekend.
interest. He's got a pretty extensive injury history and as someone said, will be 33 next month. He'd have to go to a team with just about everything else in place to have a chance to succeed. I think the price will be a lot less than what people here are discussing. I don't see anyone trading a #1 for Stafford.
Makes too much sense. The Pats have nothing. They wont bring back Cam and can't have thought much of Stidham given how little he saw the field. Kraft and Bill both want to be competitive NOW, and who better than Stafford will be available? They could still draft a QB if one they like falls to them, and he could sit for a couple years.
Belichick is a very patient man. And he has a lot of problems to solve on offense beyond just QB.
I read all the time how putrid our WRs are (I don't think they are that bad, actually) but have you seen the Pats WRs? Meyers and Byrd are their "top two". Both undrafted players...
never become a great QB, but he can most likely become at least as successful as Stafford. Hard pass on Stafford
I doubt that very much.
That is a bold statement indeed.
Stafford is a victim of playing for a horrible franchise. But he's immensely talented. From a throwing standpoint, Jones isn't in the same universe as Stafford.
I think Pats will bounce back this fall. BB is too good & the defense had a ton of COVID opt outs.
I don’t see it. If Tua develops and Jets get Watson, they might be staring down the barrel of multiple double digit loss seasons for next few years.
Their OL has really detiorated again. Their D also isn’t good and very little coming out of the draft the last few years. McCourty, Chung are old. Hightower and Gilmore are on the decline. No real weapons at WR or TE anymore. James White is a FA. QB is just one of their question marks. They are very much entering a 3-4 year rebuild.
I would think right now, even without him, the WFT and a healthy Dallas are the top 2 favorites to win the division in 2021. Stafford probably puts them over the top
RE: Mahomes could be available in trade and it wouldn't happen here
Such a BS comment. Why most don’t take you serious around here. And if you cut idiotic stuff like this out, you might need considered one of the better thinkers/posters around here, imo.
Stafford is significantly more talented than Jones and would represent an upgrade at the most important position on the field, yet we all know the Giants won't even put in a call. And the reason they won't? Jones's scholarship status.
Stafford is significantly more talented than Jones and would represent an upgrade at the most important position on the field, yet we all know the Giants won't even put in a call. And the reason they won't? Jones's scholarship status.
Or - Jones is almost a decade younger. Pointless to build around a 32-33 year old QB. Giants should look into Watson, though.
has been the inability to close the deal, going back to his Georgia days.
Some of that was the talent he had around him and the coaching but its still there.
And of course BBI's resident "We Trust Judge in everything but QB's b/c we don't like ours" contingent is going to beat this subject to death.
Somehow he has closed the deal enough to lead the league in game-winning drives repeatedly during his career.
But we all know how much you love to just repeat players' college reputation throughout their NFL career.
Ultimately, unless one just likes to argue stats, the only stat that matters for a QB is winning games that count. Stafford has never taken the Lions past the Wild card round. I don't see him taking this Giants team every that far.
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
I hope I'm wrong too. I'm rooting for him... Jones being great is by far the best scenario for the Giants. But wanting it doesn't mean anything, and buying our heads in the sand and pretending doesn't make us better fans. It just makes us dumb.
They were hit hard by injuries this year but they would be one of the most talented teams with him in the nfc next year. Colts and saints make sense too.
And I know lions are a dumpster fire but has stafford ever won a big game in his whole career?
Well, he got royally screwed in their 2014 playoff game against Dallas. And he played very well in that game.
He played well enough to win for sure but his other two playoff games were less than stellar.
In his first playoff game in 2012 against the Saints, Stafford threw for 380 yards, 8.8 YPA, 3 TDs, and 2 INTs, and a rushing TD. His QBR was 87.5 in that game, which is great.
They lost 45-28. There was no "D" in Detroit that day...
whomever trades for Stafford is on the hook for $20M in 2021 and $23M in 2022.
This would be a better use of money than paying Leonard Williams, and a better use of money than paying a free agent wide receiver.
Trade for Stafford, promote Kitchens to offensive coordinator, win NFC East in 2021.
Sweet Lord, do you watch any Lions games? The fans here in Detroit have hated his contract extension the minute he signed it. He’s not a winner. They basically had no choice but to sign him given their mid first round draft position that year and needs in other areas. He’s now 33 with multiple injuries the past few years. I’m not saying Jones is going to be the guy, but it sure as shit isn’t going to be Stafford. Sign LW, get a stud receiver and give Jones his third season to see what he can do with actual weapons at his disposal.
Remember, Stafford had one of the best receivers in NFL history at his disposal in Calvin Johnson and still didn’t win anything.
whomever trades for Stafford is on the hook for $20M in 2021 and $23M in 2022.
This would be a better use of money than paying Leonard Williams, and a better use of money than paying a free agent wide receiver.
Trade for Stafford, promote Kitchens to offensive coordinator, win NFC East in 2021.
Sooooo, you advocate trading assets for a 32 year old QB when we are only past year 2 of pur current QB and letting our very best defensive player leave in FA at the age of 27?
That is definition of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Then, next year when our run defense and pass rush falters, you will surely blame it on some other theory because you have an agenda that you are hell bent on.
I would have loved to have played sports with you and listened to you bitch, piss and moan every time you got knocked down.
RE: RE: RE: Trading for Stafford makes the Giants the favorite in the NFC East
It's a pipe dream. Can't interrupt the scholarship.
Is that your new phrase du jour ypu are adopting? Lol, if Jones turns it around next year, I hope you have the balls...nope, not gonna go too far, the sense of pride to just fade into obscurity.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Trading for Stafford makes the Giants the favorite in the NFC East
It's a pipe dream. Can't interrupt the scholarship.
Is that your new phrase du jour ypu are adopting? Lol, if Jones turns it around next year, I hope you have the balls...nope, not gonna go too far, the sense of pride to just fade into obscurity.
You've been loudly wrong on a lot of things as I recall, and you're still here.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Trading for Stafford makes the Giants the favorite in the NFC East
It's a pipe dream. Can't interrupt the scholarship.
Is that your new phrase du jour ypu are adopting? Lol, if Jones turns it around next year, I hope you have the balls...nope, not gonna go too far, the sense of pride to just fade into obscurity.
You've been loudly wrong on a lot of things as I recall, and you're still here.
Ummmmmmm, like what? Lol. I was wrong about the Giants extending Beckham, but Im pretty sure the entire sports world was wrong about that. Except you. That was your claim to fame.
I said I liked Jones, and still do but have been very critical of his play this year. I also didnt think the Giants would take him, but unlike you, I realize it takes more than two years for a QB to develop when he is surrounded by what Jones is.
It's a pipe dream. Can't interrupt the scholarship.
Is that your new phrase du jour ypu are adopting? Lol, if Jones turns it around next year, I hope you have the balls...nope, not gonna go too far, the sense of pride to just fade into obscurity.
You've been loudly wrong on a lot of things as I recall, and you're still here.
Ummmmmmm, like what? Lol. I was wrong about the Giants extending Beckham, but Im pretty sure the entire sports world was wrong about that. Except you. That was your claim to fame.
I said I liked Jones, and still do but have been very critical of his play this year. I also didnt think the Giants would take him, but unlike you, I realize it takes more than two years for a QB to develop when he is surrounded by what Jones is.
Other than that, what you got?
Well said. I think Jones must have pissed in Terps Cheerios or something. The last QB we had who won us 2 Super Bowls looked pretty crappy his first few years and he had an excellent defense, Tiki Barber, Shockey, an excellent like, and Burress starting in year 2. People are way too impatient with QB’s nowadays.
that emerged when we took Jones over Josh Allen. Everybody in that following needed a band leader (think the parent who went after Joe Clark in Lean On Me...thats Terps) to supplement all of the nepotism and good ol boy rhetoric that became the new narrative to resuscitate the same argument from the 70s. That is they spout off enough negative shit, and the Giants are terrible for another 10 years, they get equity or something in the football fan universe.
However, Jones is not THAT bad, has been surrounded by shit on offense and has played with guts. Fact is, we have to pay him 2 more years at least. If he sucks at that point, you crumple it up and try again. But the miserable, Samba wearing gemius who probably sucked at every sport he had ever played because he bitched so much has chosen to double down on the negativity and suggest trading draft/player capital to a team for a 32 y/o QB who hasnt sniffed postseason success despute playing with an all time great WR.
You truly cant make this up. Terps lives to be miserable and thinks thats a good niche spot for himself. Fact is, he is just a pompous dick who got scared away by that meatball Joey in VA.
Is going to the Niners. That team is prime to return to the playoffs when they get their players back as Stafford would make them an instant contender.
Is going to the Niners. That team is prime to return to the playoffs when they get their players back as Stafford would make them an instant contender.
Agreed. Them or the Colts. Both teams are missing only QBs.
I think Pitt scraps the whole thing amd starts over if Haskins doesnt work out. I think the Pats are in the same boat. Thing is they have young pieces that could have value.
As a Giant fan, would you want to take a flier on N'Keal Harry? He prob wouldnt cost too much.
Is underrated. “Not winning anything” is a fair criticism for most QBs with his won/loss record but not when they play for the Detroit Lions. This guy is tremendously talented.
Trading for him for the Giants is a little more dicey because he’s owed a lot of money and they have Jones, and he’s a lot older than Jones, but make no mistake-he’s significantly better. Unless a different style offense unlocks the “5 TDs vs Washington in 2019” Daniel Jones for every game of course.
never become a great QB, but he can most likely become at least as successful as Stafford. Hard pass on Stafford
Jones hasn't got a quarter of Stafford's natural talent and the fact that you don't see that shows you haven't got a clue about what you are looking at.
Snuff out every thread with negativity like you do.
Terps, with his knowledge, could’ve been a really good poster for the board. But he really is nothing but insufferable. I see his name on a thread and my eyes roll. Going around snuffing out threads is a perfect description of what his role is on the board. Unfortunate.
never become a great QB, but he can most likely become at least as successful as Stafford. Hard pass on Stafford
Jones hasn't got a quarter of Stafford's natural talent and the fact that you don't see that shows you haven't got a clue about what you are looking at.
Stafford in his prime, maybe, but Stafford now is even more brittle than Jones. Not to mention that despite his natural talent and having people like Calvin Johnson around him he has won nothing.
never become a great QB, but he can most likely become at least as successful as Stafford. Hard pass on Stafford
Jones hasn't got a quarter of Stafford's natural talent and the fact that you don't see that shows you haven't got a clue about what you are looking at.
Stafford in his prime, maybe, but Stafford now is even more brittle than Jones. Not to mention that despite his natural talent and having people like Calvin Johnson around him he has won nothing.
I'm not saying the Giants should be in on Stafford - I don't think it is their time for a move like that (unlike with the younger Watson). But Stafford is still immensely gifted and Jones will never have his physical traits.
RE: No, its more that Terps has a cult following here
that emerged when we took Jones over Josh Allen. Everybody in that following needed a band leader (think the parent who went after Joe Clark in Lean On Me...thats Terps) to supplement all of the nepotism and good ol boy rhetoric that became the new narrative to resuscitate the same argument from the 70s. That is they spout off enough negative shit, and the Giants are terrible for another 10 years, they get equity or something in the football fan universe.
However, Jones is not THAT bad, has been surrounded by shit on offense and has played with guts. Fact is, we have to pay him 2 more years at least. If he sucks at that point, you crumple it up and try again. But the miserable, Samba wearing gemius who probably sucked at every sport he had ever played because he bitched so much has chosen to double down on the negativity and suggest trading draft/player capital to a team for a 32 y/o QB who hasnt sniffed postseason success despute playing with an all time great WR.
You truly cant make this up. Terps lives to be miserable and thinks thats a good niche spot for himself. Fact is, he is just a pompous dick who got scared away by that meatball Joey in VA.
What a stupid set of posts. People who think the Giants should move on from Jones aren’t a “cult” following a leader. They are people who hold a similar opinion. Why are you so upset that some people hold an opinion different that yours?
And the “I wish I could have played sports against you to watch you whine when you got knocked down?” How insecure are you?
Opinions on the Giants QB shouldn’t scare you, chopper. It will all be ok. Just breathe a little, buddy.
but the injuries make it a no go to part with the assets needed to pull the trade off. He’d be a big upgrade - we run away with the division if we had his 2020 season.
whomever trades for Stafford is on the hook for $20M in 2021 and $23M in 2022.
This would be a better use of money than paying Leonard Williams, and a better use of money than paying a free agent wide receiver.
Trade for Stafford, promote Kitchens to offensive coordinator, win NFC East in 2021.
Sweet Lord, do you watch any Lions games? The fans here in Detroit have hated his contract extension the minute he signed it. He’s not a winner. They basically had no choice but to sign him given their mid first round draft position that year and needs in other areas. He’s now 33 with multiple injuries the past few years. I’m not saying Jones is going to be the guy, but it sure as shit isn’t going to be Stafford. Sign LW, get a stud receiver and give Jones his third season to see what he can do with actual weapons at his disposal.
Remember, Stafford had one of the best receivers in NFL history at his disposal in Calvin Johnson and still didn’t win anything.
^This. Trading Jones and a second round pick for Stafford is ludicrous.
RE: Patriots, Steelers, Redskins, Chicago, San Fran
Probably a 2 and extra high conditional pick for 2022 or player.
I’d give up our 1st in a second for him
You've gotta be kidding with this statement. Giving up a piece with a long term impact for a short term fix is a surefire to fuck this franchise for even longer
whomever trades for Stafford is on the hook for $20M in 2021 and $23M in 2022.
This would be a better use of money than paying Leonard Williams, and a better use of money than paying a free agent wide receiver.
Trade for Stafford, promote Kitchens to offensive coordinator, win NFC East in 2021.
Sweet Lord, do you watch any Lions games? The fans here in Detroit have hated his contract extension the minute he signed it. He’s not a winner. They basically had no choice but to sign him given their mid first round draft position that year and needs in other areas. He’s now 33 with multiple injuries the past few years. I’m not saying Jones is going to be the guy, but it sure as shit isn’t going to be Stafford. Sign LW, get a stud receiver and give Jones his third season to see what he can do with actual weapons at his disposal.
Remember, Stafford had one of the best receivers in NFL history at his disposal in Calvin Johnson and still didn’t win anything.
^This. Trading Jones and a second round pick for Stafford is ludicrous.
Oh.. well if I could have Stafford for Jones and a second round pick, well I'd consider that. Jones is garbage.
RE: RE: No, its more that Terps has a cult following here
that emerged when we took Jones over Josh Allen. Everybody in that following needed a band leader (think the parent who went after Joe Clark in Lean On Me...thats Terps) to supplement all of the nepotism and good ol boy rhetoric that became the new narrative to resuscitate the same argument from the 70s. That is they spout off enough negative shit, and the Giants are terrible for another 10 years, they get equity or something in the football fan universe.
However, Jones is not THAT bad, has been surrounded by shit on offense and has played with guts. Fact is, we have to pay him 2 more years at least. If he sucks at that point, you crumple it up and try again. But the miserable, Samba wearing gemius who probably sucked at every sport he had ever played because he bitched so much has chosen to double down on the negativity and suggest trading draft/player capital to a team for a 32 y/o QB who hasnt sniffed postseason success despute playing with an all time great WR.
You truly cant make this up. Terps lives to be miserable and thinks thats a good niche spot for himself. Fact is, he is just a pompous dick who got scared away by that meatball Joey in VA.
What a stupid set of posts. People who think the Giants should move on from Jones aren’t a “cult” following a leader. They are people who hold a similar opinion. Why are you so upset that some people hold an opinion different that yours?
And the “I wish I could have played sports against you to watch you whine when you got knocked down?” How insecure are you?
Opinions on the Giants QB shouldn’t scare you, chopper. It will all be ok. Just breathe a little, buddy.
Ahhh ok Dr. mike.
It has nothing to do with having a differing opinion and more to do with certain posters going out of their way to bring up Jones' lack of success this season. They say the exact same thing and he does it more than anybody else and people rarely offer any substance to their argument. As in referring to specifics about his game that is not improving. I was very outspoken earlier in the year when he was fumbling a lot still. He started to improve upon it and I moved on. But now, there will be a thread about the line and some asshole with no ability to detach themselves from the mob will comment with "Nick Gates can play Dermonti Dawson and Jones will suck ass." Nothing to do with the topic and its always the same guys.
The comment about sports only had to do with how much I loved to watch guys who bitch and moan on the field /court get knocked around and eventually unravel.
A 33 year old often injured (as he ages) QB. And he “Laps Jones” as a QB yea right, love his athletism with this line he gets sacked 50 times. Some times you people need to think.
have scared a lot of fans here in terms of waiting for a young QB to develop. It usually takes guys a few years for things to click. I remember a lot of people being frustrated with Eli the first few years as well.
The reality is we invested the #6 overall pick in this guy and he has flashed enough to warrant evaluating him in year 3. Not trying to make excuses for him, but he had virtually no weapons once Barkley went down and he was learning his second new offense on his first two years. This being a bizarre offseason certainly didn’t help with that.
Signing a 33 year old QB who has been hurt multiple times the last few seasons is not going to help our team. It’s not like Stafford is a guy who has had tons of success. And he’s had some talented players in his teams over the years.
have scared a lot of fans here in terms of waiting for a young QB to develop. It usually takes guys a few years for things to click. I remember a lot of people being frustrated with Eli the first few years as well.
The reality is we invested the #6 overall pick in this guy and he has flashed enough to warrant evaluating him in year 3. Not trying to make excuses for him, but he had virtually no weapons once Barkley went down and he was learning his second new offense on his first two years. This being a bizarre offseason certainly didn’t help with that.
Signing a 33 year old QB who has been hurt multiple times the last few seasons is not going to help our team. It’s not like Stafford is a guy who has had tons of success. And he’s had some talented players in his teams over the years.
Sorry, I meant to say trading for, not signing Stafford. You would potentially be giving up a first round pick to get him. And you have to pay him 20+ million a year. With the cap decreasing this year that means you are probably losing LW, Tomlinson, no FA receivers, and you lose your first round pick. For a 33 year old QB who is immobile and will have no weapons to throw to. If we lost those 2 defensive lineman there’s no way we would take WR in round 2 or 3.
that's the reason why he and Detroit are parting ways. He's taken such a beating throughout his career that he's at least 5 years worse off physically than he should be. If we got Stafford it would be a 1-2 year stopgap at best. We still wouldn't get close to a Super Bowl and we wouldn't be closer to getting a franchise QB than just letting Jones play out another year, maybe two and seeing him fail. Anybody advocating us picking up Stafford and actually thinking he'd bring us a Super Bowl is out of their minds
that's the reason why he and Detroit are parting ways. He's taken such a beating throughout his career that he's at least 5 years worse off physically than he should be. If we got Stafford it would be a 1-2 year stopgap at best. We still wouldn't get close to a Super Bowl and we wouldn't be closer to getting a franchise QB than just letting Jones play out another year, maybe two and seeing him fail. Anybody advocating us picking up Stafford and actually thinking he'd bring us a Super Bowl is out of their minds
Exactly, I mean look at Rivers as an example. That’s terrific the Colts got to the playoffs, but where are they now at QB? They won enough games to put them completely out of contention for any of the top QB’s in the draft. Unless they want to give up some crazy haul of picks. Trading for or signing old injured QB’s is not a recipe for success in most cases.
that's the reason why he and Detroit are parting ways. He's taken such a beating throughout his career that he's at least 5 years worse off physically than he should be. If we got Stafford it would be a 1-2 year stopgap at best. We still wouldn't get close to a Super Bowl and we wouldn't be closer to getting a franchise QB than just letting Jones play out another year, maybe two and seeing him fail. Anybody advocating us picking up Stafford and actually thinking he'd bring us a Super Bowl is out of their minds
Exactly, I mean look at Rivers as an example. That’s terrific the Colts got to the playoffs, but where are they now at QB? They won enough games to put them completely out of contention for any of the top QB’s in the draft. Unless they want to give up some crazy haul of picks. Trading for or signing old injured QB’s is not a recipe for success in most cases.
Yup, Stafford only makes sense for a team like San Francisco or Indianapolis who have to win now and could see their window for winning shut in a year or two. Stafford isn't good enough to get the Giants to a Super Bowl as currently constructed. The other thing with Stafford is he gets injured a lot so you need to spend money on a backup QB who can play. The Giants aren't doing that so they'd turn Jones into a backup which isn't the point of trying to develop him into a franchise QB. The best case scenario of Stafford with the Giants is maybe one playoff win in two seasons of relative health before he completely falls off a cliff physically.
that's the reason why he and Detroit are parting ways. He's taken such a beating throughout his career that he's at least 5 years worse off physically than he should be. If we got Stafford it would be a 1-2 year stopgap at best. We still wouldn't get close to a Super Bowl and we wouldn't be closer to getting a franchise QB than just letting Jones play out another year, maybe two and seeing him fail. Anybody advocating us picking up Stafford and actually thinking he'd bring us a Super Bowl is out of their minds
This is exactly right. Not to mention his salary restricting us from keeping valuable assets and adding pieces to plug holes of which we still have plenty.
I posted that because in many ways I agree with Terps' view on Jones. I am not as strident in that opinion, but I'm tired of having any opinion I post dismissed as being a "negative nelly" or just trying to be a dick.m It is not any kind of outlier opinion to doubt Jones is a franchise QB. Anywhere outside a Giants fan discussion it is actually a pretty widely held opinion.
It would be nice if anyone expressing an opinion on this board could be in some camp other than "Terps" or "ryanmkeane." There is a shit ton of space on that spectrum between those two extremes.
that's the reason why he and Detroit are parting ways. He's taken such a beating throughout his career that he's at least 5 years worse off physically than he should be. If we got Stafford it would be a 1-2 year stopgap at best. We still wouldn't get close to a Super Bowl and we wouldn't be closer to getting a franchise QB than just letting Jones play out another year, maybe two and seeing him fail. Anybody advocating us picking up Stafford and actually thinking he'd bring us a Super Bowl is out of their minds
This is exactly right. Not to mention his salary restricting us from keeping valuable assets and adding pieces to plug holes of which we still have plenty.
Well I checked the stats and they don't necessarily say Stafford is cooked. Maybe, but quite possibly he can still play at a high level.
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
I hope I'm wrong too. I'm rooting for him... Jones being great is by far the best scenario for the Giants. But wanting it doesn't mean anything, and buying our heads in the sand and pretending doesn't make us better fans. It just makes us dumb.
Jones being great is the scenario we have to pursue for one more year, maybe two if he improves a lot next year and becomes very good. The scenario we can't pursue is giving up a lot of cap space for an over the hill QB in Stafford who you know can't get better and won't make us that much better than 8-8 or 9-7 in a stopgap year or two
Is going to the Niners. That team is prime to return to the playoffs when they get their players back as Stafford would make them an instant contender.
Where is garrapolo going? I’m honestly asking because I have no idea. I’d take him over stafford in a heartbeat. I don’t have Stafford but don’t love go anymore either. I want to find the guy here who likes Stafford right now but wanted Eli dumped prior to 2019. I’ll bet there’s a high number. Eli from 14-16 was pretty good. Probably even better than Stafford or at least a bit more consistent. Not sure how Stafford is so much better. I’d be ok with him, but have a hard time vaulting him to savior status. Maybe in SF if they are healthy, sure, Stafford could help. Why is he better than garrapolo?
RE: RE: RE: RE: The Giants don't have a quarterback
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
I hope I'm wrong too. I'm rooting for him... Jones being great is by far the best scenario for the Giants. But wanting it doesn't mean anything, and buying our heads in the sand and pretending doesn't make us better fans. It just makes us dumb.
Jones being great is the scenario we have to pursue for one more year, maybe two if he improves a lot next year and becomes very good. The scenario we can't pursue is giving up a lot of cap space for an over the hill QB in Stafford who you know can't get better and won't make us that much better than 8-8 or 9-7 in a stopgap year or two
Cap space and at least one high draft pick. We’re not a good enough team to be throwing away first and second round picks for mediocre QB’s.
point about polar opposites in regard to Jones on this board. I consider myself to be in the middle right now. I’ve seen enough flashes to keep me interested, but his fumbles and certain decisions he makes concern me.
To me it comes down to this season. If he doesn’t improve its time to move on.
Detroit has multiple WR who can start for us and a great TE in Hockenson. Not to mention lack of defense caused a lot of inflation from garbage time.
no stats do not lie all the time. Taken as a whole stats tell you who the best QBs are and who the bad QBs are. The stats say Rodgers, Mahomes, Wilson are always among the best. They say for 2020 Stafford was somewhere between 10 and 15. And they say Jones was bottom 5. You are just saying stats lie all the time bc they are telling you now that Jones is terrible, and you don't like that conclusion.
that's the reason why he and Detroit are parting ways. He's taken such a beating throughout his career that he's at least 5 years worse off physically than he should be. If we got Stafford it would be a 1-2 year stopgap at best. We still wouldn't get close to a Super Bowl and we wouldn't be closer to getting a franchise QB than just letting Jones play out another year, maybe two and seeing him fail. Anybody advocating us picking up Stafford and actually thinking he'd bring us a Super Bowl is out of their minds
This is exactly right. Not to mention his salary restricting us from keeping valuable assets and adding pieces to plug holes of which we still have plenty.
Well I checked the stats and they don't necessarily say Stafford is cooked. Maybe, but quite possibly he can still play at a high level.
Detroit is letting Stafford go because he is close to finished. They are in a rebuild and he won't be good enough to win them games in 2 years when they hope to have a competitive team again. We are also most likely 2 years away from hopefully being good and Stafford will be a very old 35 at that time due to his injury history. If you've ever seen Detroit games, Stafford gets injured constantly so you have to build a dominant OL or have a backup QB almost as good as Stafford if you want to remain competitive over the very short period he is viable...
RE: RE: RE: RE: The Giants don't have a quarterback
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
I hope I'm wrong too. I'm rooting for him... Jones being great is by far the best scenario for the Giants. But wanting it doesn't mean anything, and buying our heads in the sand and pretending doesn't make us better fans. It just makes us dumb.
Jones being great is the scenario we have to pursue for one more year, maybe two if he improves a lot next year and becomes very good. The scenario we can't pursue is giving up a lot of cap space for an over the hill QB in Stafford who you know can't get better and won't make us that much better than 8-8 or 9-7 in a stopgap year or two
You would waste two more years waiting for Jones to play well? That is insane, and if the Giants follow your lead I will stop watching until they come to their senses are run themselves like a modern organization. He has done nothing to show he is capable of being a championship QB. They should consider drafting a QB in the first round of there is one available who they like.. Or better yet try to trade for Watson.
I posted that because in many ways I agree with Terps' view on Jones. I am not as strident in that opinion, but I'm tired of having any opinion I post dismissed as being a "negative nelly" or just trying to be a dick.m It is not any kind of outlier opinion to doubt Jones is a franchise QB. Anywhere outside a Giants fan discussion it is actually a pretty widely held opinion.
It would be nice if anyone expressing an opinion on this board could be in some camp other than "Terps" or "ryanmkeane." There is a shit ton of space on that spectrum between those two extremes.
I think there are more than a few not in those camps. To me, any camp saying that Jones is what he is at this point whether good or bad with certainty stand in the way of honest conversation. I have no problem with fans having doubt about Jones, there is good reason from a fan pov to have doubt. Jones also showed in his rookie year why it isn't unreasonable to have hope.
Fans saying that Jones will never get better, or will always have the same fundamental issues seem to hold their opinion high enough to speak in absolutes. That also cuts both ways, if fans on here are talking down to fans that doubt and or speaking with authority that Jones is a franchise qb and anyone that can't see it are full of it just as the other side I spoke about above. Are they deliberately full of it, or just not know any better?
point about polar opposites in regard to Jones on this board. I consider myself to be in the middle right now. I’ve seen enough flashes to keep me interested, but his fumbles and certain decisions he makes concern me.
To me it comes down to this season. If he doesn’t improve its time to move on.
I think it's more likely (80%) that Jones doesn't become a franchise QB but the 20% chance he does is better than the virtually 0% chance you have of playoff success with Stafford on this team
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The Giants don't have a quarterback
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
I hope I'm wrong too. I'm rooting for him... Jones being great is by far the best scenario for the Giants. But wanting it doesn't mean anything, and buying our heads in the sand and pretending doesn't make us better fans. It just makes us dumb.
Jones being great is the scenario we have to pursue for one more year, maybe two if he improves a lot next year and becomes very good. The scenario we can't pursue is giving up a lot of cap space for an over the hill QB in Stafford who you know can't get better and won't make us that much better than 8-8 or 9-7 in a stopgap year or two
You would waste two more years waiting for Jones to play well? That is insane, and if the Giants follow your lead I will stop watching until they come to their senses are run themselves like a modern organization. He has done nothing to show he is capable of being a championship QB. They should consider drafting a QB in the first round of there is one available who they like.. Or better yet try to trade for Watson.
It takes QB’s more than 2 years to know how good they are in many many cases. From a salary cap perspective you almost have to see how he does. Any trade for a guy like Watson would cost us a ton of cash and draft picks. We’re not one player away from being a good team. If you want to be 8-8 or 9-7 forever go ahead and make a trade for Watson or Stafford. They won’t have any receivers to throw to other than Shepard and our defense will be weakened substantially by losing guys like LW and Tomlinson.
Detroit has multiple WR who can start for us and a great TE in Hockenson. Not to mention lack of defense caused a lot of inflation from garbage time.
no stats do not lie all the time. Taken as a whole stats tell you who the best QBs are and who the bad QBs are. The stats say Rodgers, Mahomes, Wilson are always among the best. They say for 2020 Stafford was somewhere between 10 and 15. And they say Jones was bottom 5. You are just saying stats lie all the time bc they are telling you now that Jones is terrible, and you don't like that conclusion.
That is not why I say stats lie. As Watson’s contract is less prohibitive than I thought it was, I would absolutely be in favor of him at the right price. If you had Detroit’s weapons I think Jones ends up 2020 with comparable stats. The difference is Jones still has potential whereas Stafford is on the downside of his career thanks to injuries. For a Day 3 pick I don’t have an issue with Stafford. Anything further no sale.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The Giants don't have a quarterback
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
I hope I'm wrong too. I'm rooting for him... Jones being great is by far the best scenario for the Giants. But wanting it doesn't mean anything, and buying our heads in the sand and pretending doesn't make us better fans. It just makes us dumb.
Jones being great is the scenario we have to pursue for one more year, maybe two if he improves a lot next year and becomes very good. The scenario we can't pursue is giving up a lot of cap space for an over the hill QB in Stafford who you know can't get better and won't make us that much better than 8-8 or 9-7 in a stopgap year or two
You would waste two more years waiting for Jones to play well? That is insane, and if the Giants follow your lead I will stop watching until they come to their senses are run themselves like a modern organization. He has done nothing to show he is capable of being a championship QB. They should consider drafting a QB in the first round of there is one available who they like.. Or better yet try to trade for Watson.
We don't have the assets to trade for Watson. I agree that he's the guy to pursue but I don't think the Giants can offer what the Jets have (the #2 pick, another 1st round pick and Darnold).
You also misunderstood what I said. I said "maybe two years" if Jones elevates his play to an above average level. If he doesn't then we cut bait after next season and draft another QB. I think there's a 20% chance Jones becomes the guy, but that's better than the 0% chance Stafford has of winning us anything as a veteran stopgap
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The Giants don't have a quarterback
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
I hope I'm wrong too. I'm rooting for him... Jones being great is by far the best scenario for the Giants. But wanting it doesn't mean anything, and buying our heads in the sand and pretending doesn't make us better fans. It just makes us dumb.
Jones being great is the scenario we have to pursue for one more year, maybe two if he improves a lot next year and becomes very good. The scenario we can't pursue is giving up a lot of cap space for an over the hill QB in Stafford who you know can't get better and won't make us that much better than 8-8 or 9-7 in a stopgap year or two
You would waste two more years waiting for Jones to play well? That is insane, and if the Giants follow your lead I will stop watching until they come to their senses are run themselves like a modern organization. He has done nothing to show he is capable of being a championship QB. They should consider drafting a QB in the first round of there is one available who they like.. Or better yet try to trade for Watson.
We don't have the assets to trade for Watson. I agree that he's the guy to pursue but I don't think the Giants can offer what the Jets have (the #2 pick, another 1st round pick and Darnold).
You also misunderstood what I said. I said "maybe two years" if Jones elevates his play to an above average level. If he doesn't then we cut bait after next season and draft another QB. I think there's a 20% chance Jones becomes the guy, but that's better than the 0% chance Stafford has of winning us anything as a veteran stopgap
I don't favor adding Stafford to this team if the cost is going to be high. But if it's Jones and a 2nd round pick as some have suggested (which I know it is not bc I don't think Detroit wants Jones) I would do that. Stafford has super talent. Jones doesn't.
the negative shit about Jones. Everyone seems to love Matthew Stafford - but for all you stats guys who somehow love Stafford- let’s take a look at his career as a whole. He went 13 TD and 20 picks as a rookie, was then hurt for basically the entire season in his second year, had a great year 3, and then after that, he’s averaged basically 26-27 TD and around 15 picks every season since. His best year aside from year 3 was 32 and 13 in 2015 which was his *7th* year in the league.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
the negative shit about Jones. Everyone seems to love Matthew Stafford - but for all you stats guys who somehow love Stafford- let’s take a look at his career as a whole. He went 13 TD and 20 picks as a rookie, was then hurt for basically the entire season in his second year, had a great year 3, and then after that, he’s averaged basically 26-27 TD and around 15 picks every season since. His best year aside from year 3 was 32 and 13 in 2015 which was his *7th* year in the league.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
Daniel Jones will not ever be as good as Matthew Stafford, whether you accept it or not.
he had is with his back. If that checks out I see a market for him. Yes he is 33 at seasons start but he has tremendous arm talent so I don't see his arm falling off much. I said a while ago Bill B will investigate both Stafford and Ryan.
RE: RE: I figured this thread would somehow turn into
the negative shit about Jones. Everyone seems to love Matthew Stafford - but for all you stats guys who somehow love Stafford- let’s take a look at his career as a whole. He went 13 TD and 20 picks as a rookie, was then hurt for basically the entire season in his second year, had a great year 3, and then after that, he’s averaged basically 26-27 TD and around 15 picks every season since. His best year aside from year 3 was 32 and 13 in 2015 which was his *7th* year in the league.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
Daniel Jones will not ever be as good as Matthew Stafford, whether you accept it or not.
I don’t agree. Jones has something that Stafford does not, mobility. In today’s NFL it is much more important for a QB to have some level of mobility. Look at today’s games. The only immobile guy is Brady of the four teams. Rodgers doesn’t run around as much as he used to, but he can if needed.
RE: RE: I figured this thread would somehow turn into
the negative shit about Jones. Everyone seems to love Matthew Stafford - but for all you stats guys who somehow love Stafford- let’s take a look at his career as a whole. He went 13 TD and 20 picks as a rookie, was then hurt for basically the entire season in his second year, had a great year 3, and then after that, he’s averaged basically 26-27 TD and around 15 picks every season since. His best year aside from year 3 was 32 and 13 in 2015 which was his *7th* year in the league.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
Daniel Jones will not ever be as good as Matthew Stafford, whether you accept it or not.
Whether you accept it or not? Great take looking for an obvious fight.
Have my doubts on Jones but to suggest he is incapable of reaching Stafford-level heights goes too far.
the negative shit about Jones. Everyone seems to love Matthew Stafford - but for all you stats guys who somehow love Stafford- let’s take a look at his career as a whole. He went 13 TD and 20 picks as a rookie, was then hurt for basically the entire season in his second year, had a great year 3, and then after that, he’s averaged basically 26-27 TD and around 15 picks every season since. His best year aside from year 3 was 32 and 13 in 2015 which was his *7th* year in the league.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
This is not to mention the Giants lacking weapons above a tier 2 receiver and a line that started to come together midway through his second season.
How people can sincerely assess Jones as being a poor QB given what cards he has been dealt is astonishing to me. I have really gone off on Terps but he is fairly on point when it comes to football. I think he gets stuck in a rut and sounds like a broken record when he decides to get on one, but he knows the game.
But aside from the fumbling, he has one very good seadon and one sub par season. He has shown incredible dual threat ability, hes very tough and his teammates like him. He def has work to do, but to say he sucks is just people who want to still be mad we didnt take Josh Allen (either). Its the same thing as when people remain pissed off at Barkley even tho when healthy he is probably the biggest game breaker in the NFL
RE: RE: RE: I figured this thread would somehow turn into
the negative shit about Jones. Everyone seems to love Matthew Stafford - but for all you stats guys who somehow love Stafford- let’s take a look at his career as a whole. He went 13 TD and 20 picks as a rookie, was then hurt for basically the entire season in his second year, had a great year 3, and then after that, he’s averaged basically 26-27 TD and around 15 picks every season since. His best year aside from year 3 was 32 and 13 in 2015 which was his *7th* year in the league.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
Daniel Jones will not ever be as good as Matthew Stafford, whether you accept it or not.
Whether you accept it or not? Great take looking for an obvious fight.
Have my doubts on Jones but to suggest he is incapable of reaching Stafford-level heights goes too far.
FUCK Producer. All he produces are garbage thoughts.
if everyone is making the argument that Stafford is a franchise QB, why hasn’t he “elevated his teammates” and won some playoff games? Why doesn’t he have amazing stats? These are things you are asking Jones to do right? In year 3 right?
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
RE: RE: I figured this thread would somehow turn into
the negative shit about Jones. Everyone seems to love Matthew Stafford - but for all you stats guys who somehow love Stafford- let’s take a look at his career as a whole. He went 13 TD and 20 picks as a rookie, was then hurt for basically the entire season in his second year, had a great year 3, and then after that, he’s averaged basically 26-27 TD and around 15 picks every season since. His best year aside from year 3 was 32 and 13 in 2015 which was his *7th* year in the league.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
This is not to mention the Giants lacking weapons above a tier 2 receiver and a line that started to come together midway through his second season.
How people can sincerely assess Jones as being a poor QB given what cards he has been dealt is astonishing to me. I have really gone off on Terps but he is fairly on point when it comes to football. I think he gets stuck in a rut and sounds like a broken record when he decides to get on one, but he knows the game.
But aside from the fumbling, he has one very good seadon and one sub par season. He has shown incredible dual threat ability, hes very tough and his teammates like him. He def has work to do, but to say he sucks is just people who want to still be mad we didnt take Josh Allen (either). Its the same thing as when people remain pissed off at Barkley even tho when healthy he is probably the biggest game breaker in the NFL
Totally agree. We weren’t the only team to pass on Allen. But all I keep reading on here now is how many posters thought he was terrific and they wanted him back in that draft. All I remember was the Rosen fan club. I don’t remember many calling for Josh Allen to be drafted at 2.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I figured this thread would somehow turn into
the negative shit about Jones. Everyone seems to love Matthew Stafford - but for all you stats guys who somehow love Stafford- let’s take a look at his career as a whole. He went 13 TD and 20 picks as a rookie, was then hurt for basically the entire season in his second year, had a great year 3, and then after that, he’s averaged basically 26-27 TD and around 15 picks every season since. His best year aside from year 3 was 32 and 13 in 2015 which was his *7th* year in the league.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
Daniel Jones will not ever be as good as Matthew Stafford, whether you accept it or not.
Whether you accept it or not? Great take looking for an obvious fight.
Have my doubts on Jones but to suggest he is incapable of reaching Stafford-level heights goes too far.
FUCK Producer. All he produces are garbage thoughts.
if everyone is making the argument that Stafford is a franchise QB, why hasn’t he “elevated his teammates” and won some playoff games? Why doesn’t he have amazing stats? These are things you are asking Jones to do right? In year 3 right?
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
Stafford has all the stats, that’s a weird thing to bring up.
Stafford had a top 30 all time season as a QB in his 3rd season and won 10 games. If Jones goes 5K and 41/16 next year — literally every poster on this site will be praising him.
if everyone is making the argument that Stafford is a franchise QB, why hasn’t he “elevated his teammates” and won some playoff games? Why doesn’t he have amazing stats? These are things you are asking Jones to do right? In year 3 right?
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
Stafford has all the stats, that’s a weird thing to bring up.
Stafford had a top 30 all time season as a QB in his 3rd season and won 10 games. If Jones goes 5K and 41/16 next year — literally every poster on this site will be praising him.
We've talked before about the importance of timing along with resource allocation. Stafford's got two years left on his deal - good amount of time for them to figure out the future at the position while still remaining competitive now.
If we're equating dollars to wins, it's a better use of $20M than it would be to pay Williams, and certainly better than paying a free agent WR.
We would have won 8+ games with Stafford this season.
if everyone is making the argument that Stafford is a franchise QB, why hasn’t he “elevated his teammates” and won some playoff games? Why doesn’t he have amazing stats? These are things you are asking Jones to do right? In year 3 right?
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
Stafford has all the stats, that’s a weird thing to bring up.
Stafford had a top 30 all time season as a QB in his 3rd season and won 10 games. If Jones goes 5K and 41/16 next year — literally every poster on this site will be praising him.
We've talked before about the importance of timing along with resource allocation. Stafford's got two years left on his deal - good amount of time for them to figure out the future at the position while still remaining competitive now.
If we're equating dollars to wins, it's a better use of $20M than it would be to pay Williams, and certainly better than paying a free agent WR.
We would have won 8+ games with Stafford this season.
I’m not defending Jones here, he wasn’t very good to say the least. But this team has 8+ wins if Engram could hold on to the damn ball. He was directly respond for 2-3 losses because of his untimely mishaps
if everyone is making the argument that Stafford is a franchise QB, why hasn’t he “elevated his teammates” and won some playoff games? Why doesn’t he have amazing stats? These are things you are asking Jones to do right? In year 3 right?
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
Stafford has all the stats, that’s a weird thing to bring up.
Stafford had a top 30 all time season as a QB in his 3rd season and won 10 games. If Jones goes 5K and 41/16 next year — literally every poster on this site will be praising him.
We've talked before about the importance of timing along with resource allocation. Stafford's got two years left on his deal - good amount of time for them to figure out the future at the position while still remaining competitive now.
If we're equating dollars to wins, it's a better use of $20M than it would be to pay Williams, and certainly better than paying a free agent WR.
We would have won 8+ games with Stafford this season.
I’m not defending Jones here, he wasn’t very good to say the least. But this team has 8+ wins if Engram could hold on to the damn ball. He was directly respond for 2-3 losses because of his untimely mishaps
You may be right. But the reason Engram's crucial plays hurt so much is that the offense couldn't generate points in large part due to poor quarterback play. With competent quarterbacking a couple drops are less likely to be game changers.
Have to improve at QB. Be it through Jones getting better or some other route. You can't survive by hoping to hold the opposition under 20 points.
if everyone is making the argument that Stafford is a franchise QB, why hasn’t he “elevated his teammates” and won some playoff games? Why doesn’t he have amazing stats? These are things you are asking Jones to do right? In year 3 right?
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
Stafford has all the stats, that’s a weird thing to bring up.
Stafford had a top 30 all time season as a QB in his 3rd season and won 10 games. If Jones goes 5K and 41/16 next year — literally every poster on this site will be praising him.
We've talked before about the importance of timing along with resource allocation. Stafford's got two years left on his deal - good amount of time for them to figure out the future at the position while still remaining competitive now.
If we're equating dollars to wins, it's a better use of $20M than it would be to pay Williams, and certainly better than paying a free agent WR.
We would have won 8+ games with Stafford this season.
We would have won at most 8 games with Stafford this year. Maybe he pulls out another game or two to win a weak division. But as a long term answer, he isn't it either
He would be a more than competent placeholder whole we look for the long term answer. The cost isn't exorbitant - were talking about spending the same on a 3-4 DE, and possibly also a WR. Way more bang for the buck with Stafford.
if everyone is making the argument that Stafford is a franchise QB, why hasn’t he “elevated his teammates” and won some playoff games? Why doesn’t he have amazing stats? These are things you are asking Jones to do right? In year 3 right?
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
Stafford has all the stats, that’s a weird thing to bring up.
Stafford had a top 30 all time season as a QB in his 3rd season and won 10 games. If Jones goes 5K and 41/16 next year — literally every poster on this site will be praising him.
We've talked before about the importance of timing along with resource allocation. Stafford's got two years left on his deal - good amount of time for them to figure out the future at the position while still remaining competitive now.
If we're equating dollars to wins, it's a better use of $20M than it would be to pay Williams, and certainly better than paying a free agent WR.
We would have won 8+ games with Stafford this season.
I’m not defending Jones here, he wasn’t very good to say the least. But this team has 8+ wins if Engram could hold on to the damn ball. He was directly respond for 2-3 losses because of his untimely mishaps
You may be right. But the reason Engram's crucial plays hurt so much is that the offense couldn't generate points in large part due to poor quarterback play. With competent quarterbacking a couple drops are less likely to be game changers.
Have to improve at QB. Be it through Jones getting better or some other route. You can't survive by hoping to hold the opposition under 20 points.
I’m not disagreeing with you but I think you’re underselling just how backbreaking some of Engrams miscues were. It’s hard to score points when your primary target consistently drops the ball and kills drives or better yet, plays tip drill and gives it right to the defender.
I also hold Garrett more responsible than I do Jones. Not that Jones is blameless but Garrett’s offense is freaking archaic. No pre snap motion, route trees that provide zero chance for YAC, not enough explosive opportunities downfield, etc. I know many disagree, but Garrett completely failed at setting this offense up for success. I sure hope he does a shit ton of self scouting and makes some major adjustments. But I’m not hopeful...
He would be a more than competent placeholder whole we look for the long term answer. The cost isn't exorbitant - were talking about spending the same on a 3-4 DE, and possibly also a WR. Way more bang for the buck with Stafford.
I'd rather see whether Jones is the guy for one more year than settle for a "competent placeholder" in Stafford who is almost finished as an NFL QB. 2 years isn't enough to fully determine whether a QB is the answer or not. That 3rd year is the dealbreaker, and we are obligated to give Jones at least that. I'm in the camp where we should let Jones go or draft a QB after 2021 if he isn't the guy.
As for the mediocrity that is Matt Stafford. Stafford has won 9 or more games only 4 times as an NFL QB in 12 seasons and for most of that time he's had a lot more to throw to in Detroit (Megatron, etc). than he would have had this season. Stafford with Sterling Shepard as a #1 receiver would also be pretty helpless, and with no mobility he would have been a sitting duck behind our OL. Megatron is the reason for most of Stafford's stats in the first part of his career. Since Calvin Johnson retired, Stafford hasn't won more than 9 games in a season
unless you think he’s just going to be injury plagued which is a fair opinion to have. But when he’s on that field he’s still a borderline top 10 QB and we’d be a better team with him.
I’d support the move, especially if we swing Jones for a decent pick to offset some of Staffords cost.
unless you think he’s just going to be injury plagued which is a fair opinion to have. But when he’s on that field he’s still a borderline top 10 QB and we’d be a better team with him.
I’d support the move, especially if we swing Jones for a decent pick to offset some of Staffords cost.
Detroit is letting him go because they won't be competitive until Stafford is too old or physically beat up to be their QB answer. Stafford fits in a place like IND or SF where their championship window is now and they need a QB to put around a talented team. Even Washington is a better fit because they have a top pass rush and need a placeholder QB for a year or two. The Giants aren't in that win now position and the best answer at QB is just play it out with Jones one more year and see what he shows us.
maybe for Stafford that’s the ideal fit but we are a playoff team with him, and if our defense adds a pass rusher, I’d argue we’d be a pretty dangerous team at that. Then add on Barkley and it ends up being a pretty nice place to walk into, not to mention I think he’d be perfect for NY.
He would be a more than competent placeholder whole we look for the long term answer. The cost isn't exorbitant - were talking about spending the same on a 3-4 DE, and possibly also a WR. Way more bang for the buck with Stafford.
Plus the trade cost. And I would rather evaluate Jones while continuing to build the team surrounding.
Weird, you advocate jettisoning high priced QBs who have won Super Bowls in favor of low priced rookies who can make plays with their feet but have not played a snap of NFL football....until there is a 32 year old QB coming off injury who carries a 20+ mill per year number and we owe QB 1 his vontract anyways. This plan, comes with the cost of losing our most disruptive D Lineman and limits our flexibility in FA to pay for a questionmark.
Its gotten to the point you now contradict yourself with your negative rhetoric. You make NO sense. People stick up for you but you dont even make sense any more. You post a few sets of numbers, and then when someone like ryanmkeane did here, posts numbers that kind of beat yours up, you reboot and start the same shit again.
I just cant figure it out....I cant believe someone would be so narcisstic, but this whole schtick sounds so contrived and lame.
maybe for Stafford that’s the ideal fit but we are a playoff team with him, and if our defense adds a pass rusher, I’d argue we’d be a pretty dangerous team at that. Then add on Barkley and it ends up being a pretty nice place to walk into, not to mention I think he’d be perfect for NY.
We're at best a 1st round wild card exit with Stafford and most likely still miss the playoffs as he did with Detroit all these years. This roster still needs a lot of help and it makes no sense to get the veteran QB when you're not currently set up to win it. The best move for now and later is give Jones one more year and either cast your lot with Jones if he drastically improves or move on and draft another QB if he doesn't play well in year 3.
That 3rd year is the dealbreaker, and we are obligated to give Jones at least that.
I don't understand this mentality. To whom are the Giants obligated?
The Giants can't try to improve at QB until after Jones's 3rd year? Where is that written?
Then you draft another QB if you think that way. You don't pick up a veteran QB to waste his and our time going 8-8, maybe 9-7 with a 1st round wild card exit if everything breaks right
but I would upgrade at QB now if it was a legit option. I see too much risk with Stafford based on what it would likely take to get him, so that leaves getting in on the Watson sweepstakes or draft a QB that falls at 11. Or hey, maybe Aaron Rodgers wants out!?
I don’t see any of them as being realistic options, however.
but I would upgrade at QB now if it was a legit option. I see too much risk with Stafford based on what it would likely take to get him, so that leaves getting in on the Watson sweepstakes or draft a QB that falls at 11. Or hey, maybe Aaron Rodgers wants out!?
I don’t see any of them as being realistic options, however.
Drafting a QB at 11 or getting in the Watson sweepstakes make far more sense than picking up a QB in Stafford who is a physically beat up guy in his 30s and who at most will get you from bad to mediocre. I can support moving on from Jones by either drafting a QB if there's one we really like or getting Watson because both of those opportunities can net us a franchise QB for the long term. I can't support denying Jones the opportunity of a year 3 with Stafford though.
but I would upgrade at QB now if it was a legit option. I see too much risk with Stafford based on what it would likely take to get him, so that leaves getting in on the Watson sweepstakes or draft a QB that falls at 11. Or hey, maybe Aaron Rodgers wants out!?
I don’t see any of them as being realistic options, however.
Drafting a QB at 11 or getting in the Watson sweepstakes make far more sense than picking up a QB in Stafford who is a physically beat up guy in his 30s and who at most will get you from bad to mediocre. I can support moving on from Jones by either drafting a QB if there's one we really like or getting Watson because both of those opportunities can net us a franchise QB for the long term. I can't support denying Jones the opportunity of a year 3 with Stafford though.
"Yea but at least we'll win more games than with Jones."
-Go Terps/bw in DC/Producer/LBH15 (now back to JimmyGoogs)/allstarjim et al
I mentioned his third season. It was a great year. But, that was basically it. He doesn’t have great stats throughout the majority of his career. Which is what a lot of BBI people think means to be a franchise QB.
Me personally, I think Stafford peaked early on and then became a gun slinger type and never really became good enough to overcome his mistakes and bad teams he was on. That’s not his fault, it’s just what he was. He was a very solid QB who had 1 awesome peak but then ultimately never really did much. Everyone will be expecting him to be some amazing QB on another team, he’ll be the same guy he’s been for the past 3-4 years.
over the years. I think some fans here overrate him a bit. Especially his pocket presence the past few seasons. He still had an absolute cannon for an arm and always has but IMO he’s just not that great right now.
over the years. I think some fans here overrate him a bit. Especially his pocket presence the past few seasons. He still had an absolute cannon for an arm and always has but IMO he’s just not that great right now.
i don't feel like going through every year but there are more than a few years where he is top-10 (or higher) in many key stats.
he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
Yeah....right now? no shit. Jones has played 2 NFL seasons dude.
The division is weak, and we've got a good head coach and defense. So why not take an opportunity to improve at the most important position? Are we trying to improve or not?
he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
This is what Im talking about....you dont post any substance! It is absolutely disputable based on age, athletic ability, they both have very similar numbers in roughly the same number of games played the last two years, one is 23 the other is 32, one cost more than 20 million, the other costs under 10 million...
Ypu havent brpught up a salient argument yet. Maybe stick to soccer boards?
he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
Yeah....right now? no shit. Jones has played 2 NFL seasons dude.
The division is weak, and we've got a good head coach and defense. So why not take an opportunity to improve at the most important position? Are we trying to improve or not?
Pay attention, your solution involves weakening the defense considerably by letting Williams (forget even considering DT) walk and then whrn teams run all over us and QBs have all the time in the world they need to find a guy, I guess the 32 year old Stafford starts launching missiles to our tiny and slow receivers because we are stuck paying 20 mill per for a corpse.
he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
This is what Im talking about....you dont post any substance! It is absolutely disputable based on age, athletic ability, they both have very similar numbers in roughly the same number of games played the last two years, one is 23 the other is 32, one cost more than 20 million, the other costs under 10 million...
Ypu havent brpught up a salient argument yet. Maybe stick to soccer boards?
There's honestly nothing similar about their stats in any category. There are some areas where Jones is better, primarily as a runner (where he's much better), and some where Jones is worse (pretty much every passing stat, where Jones is significantly worse). They're not similar in any way.
So that leaves me curious as to what exactly qualifies as a salient argument in your opinion? It sure isn't the ridiculous assertion you just tried to pass off as fact.
I mentioned his third season. It was a great year. But, that was basically it. He doesn’t have great stats throughout the majority of his career. Which is what a lot of BBI people think means to be a franchise QB.
He’s gone 4K+ every year he’s been healthy. He’s got an outside shot to hit 50K/300TDs next year — which is like a club of a dozen QBs all time.
Lots to knock on him, but the stats are pretty good.
I agree Stafford is/has been a good QB. But the talk around BBI lately is that you have to be 35-40 TD QB to be considered a good franchise QB.
I don’t agree with that as I’ve said you can be in the 28-33 range and be a franchise QB. I think Stafford was a good franchise QB. He just never truly lived up to the hype. He was good though. Also have to consider the Lions are just a truly historically bad franchise. Tough spot for him.
he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
This is what Im talking about....you dont post any substance! It is absolutely disputable based on age, athletic ability, they both have very similar numbers in roughly the same number of games played the last two years, one is 23 the other is 32, one cost more than 20 million, the other costs under 10 million...
Ypu havent brpught up a salient argument yet. Maybe stick to soccer boards?
There's honestly nothing similar about their stats in any category. There are some areas where Jones is better, primarily as a runner (where he's much better), and some where Jones is worse (pretty much every passing stat, where Jones is significantly worse). They're not similar in any way.
So that leaves me curious as to what exactly qualifies as a salient argument in your opinion? It sure isn't the ridiculous assertion you just tried to pass off as fact.
Great form by you. And yes I am ready for that. So rough calculations are that Stafford brings 600 more passing yards 10 more passing TDs with a much better supporting cast. Jones brings 500 more rushing yards and 3 TD. So I think its fair to mark the discrepancy at +100 total yards and +7 TDs for Stafford, a 10 year vet, vs Jones who had 22 INTs in his first 27 games compared to Stafford with 21...in 13 games to start his career.
My whole point its that you and others are jumping the gun on Jones....big time. He has made plays. His teammates have let him down, a lot in big time situations. But the idea of trading for a 32 year old Matt Stafford when you have a similar QB on your roster already.
My only gripe with Jones has been the fumbling. He has seemed to improve on that. He is guaranteed 2 more years. He is not Manziel, Kizer, Rosen, Mirer, Haskins, et al bad.
Btw, your post is what I call a salient argument. Im just saying, aside from the fumbles, Jones was right there with Stafford as a 2nd year guy playing behind a brand new line, an uncertain set of receivers and comparing him to an 11 year vet, I would not want him to replace Jones.
I clearly pointed out to you how similar that their stats were in those two years. Just one was in the league for a decade, and the other one has had 2 years with 2 different coaches.
I posted that because in many ways I agree with Terps' view on Jones. I am not as strident in that opinion, but I'm tired of having any opinion I post dismissed as being a "negative nelly" or just trying to be a dick.m It is not any kind of outlier opinion to doubt Jones is a franchise QB. Anywhere outside a Giants fan discussion it is actually a pretty widely held opinion.
It would be nice if anyone expressing an opinion on this board could be in some camp other than "Terps" or "ryanmkeane." There is a shit ton of space on that spectrum between those two extremes.
I think there are more than a few not in those camps. To me, any camp saying that Jones is what he is at this point whether good or bad with certainty stand in the way of honest conversation. I have no problem with fans having doubt about Jones, there is good reason from a fan pov to have doubt. Jones also showed in his rookie year why it isn't unreasonable to have hope.
Fans saying that Jones will never get better, or will always have the same fundamental issues seem to hold their opinion high enough to speak in absolutes. That also cuts both ways, if fans on here are talking down to fans that doubt and or speaking with authority that Jones is a franchise qb and anyone that can't see it are full of it just as the other side I spoke about above. Are they deliberately full of it, or just not know any better?
This is a decent point crick....but I almost want to challenge you to find a majority of football threads where nobody makes a gratuitous and ambiguous Jones crack. Its almost like people who get to drunk at a karaoke, know they cant sing and then put on a Queen song.
Stafford is a breaking-down player whose best days are well behind him.
How in the world is that the type of guy we should pursue?
If it weren't for a few very vocal nitwits who detest Jones with every fiber of their being, the notion of trying to obtain stafford would be cause for laughing someone right out of the room.
Stafford is a breaking-down player whose best days are well behind him.
How in the world is that the type of guy we should pursue?
If it weren't for a few very vocal nitwits who detest Jones with every fiber of their being, the notion of trying to obtain stafford would be cause for laughing someone right out of the room.
Stafford makes sense for someone like the Colts or 49ers. I actually like Stafford a lot and think he can still be good, but the Giants are not an above-average QB away from contending.
I posted that because in many ways I agree with Terps' view on Jones. I am not as strident in that opinion, but I'm tired of having any opinion I post dismissed as being a "negative nelly" or just trying to be a dick.m It is not any kind of outlier opinion to doubt Jones is a franchise QB. Anywhere outside a Giants fan discussion it is actually a pretty widely held opinion.
It would be nice if anyone expressing an opinion on this board could be in some camp other than "Terps" or "ryanmkeane." There is a shit ton of space on that spectrum between those two extremes.
I think there are more than a few not in those camps. To me, any camp saying that Jones is what he is at this point whether good or bad with certainty stand in the way of honest conversation. I have no problem with fans having doubt about Jones, there is good reason from a fan pov to have doubt. Jones also showed in his rookie year why it isn't unreasonable to have hope.
Fans saying that Jones will never get better, or will always have the same fundamental issues seem to hold their opinion high enough to speak in absolutes. That also cuts both ways, if fans on here are talking down to fans that doubt and or speaking with authority that Jones is a franchise qb and anyone that can't see it are full of it just as the other side I spoke about above. Are they deliberately full of it, or just not know any better?
This is a decent point crick....but I almost want to challenge you to find a majority of football threads where nobody makes a gratuitous and ambiguous Jones crack. Its almost like people who get to drunk at a karaoke, know they cant sing and then put on a Queen song.
Hi Chopper. I see your point. Even though I was attempting to be balanced about both sides of the aisle, I understand that the ailes themselves are probably not balanced. My intention is to communicate that there are two sides to help soften the communication.
is the classic "10 very good throws in a row and then 2 bone headed pocket plays" whether it is taking a bad sack or throwing a horrible pick, he seems to have a knack for that. I think he's a bit overrated because of his late game heroics, but it was his mistakes that put the team in that spot in the first place
is the classic "10 very good throws in a row and then 2 bone headed pocket plays" whether it is taking a bad sack or throwing a horrible pick, he seems to have a knack for that. I think he's a bit overrated because of his late game heroics, but it was his mistakes that put the team in that spot in the first place
There were long stretches of Eli's career where you could use literally the exact same description for him.
That Stafford is a right time/right place spark of magic away from his legacy being completely different. In terms of true QB talent, Stafford has been top-5 since he entered the league. Talent isn't everything, or else Jeff George would be in the conversation for GOAT, but Stafford is being extremely underrated here.
His career has been sabotaged by a dysfunctional organization. Anyone who wants to use his shortcomings as a comparison to Jones should realize that doing so basically implies that our organization is on par with the Lions.
Stafford has played 12 seasons...well i guess 11 full seasons. Could he go to a team like the Colts or 49ers and they make a SB run? Sure, he could. But...IMO he's not worth giving up a 1st round pick for *at the current time*...he's on the back 9, and getting closer to 18.
Stafford has played 12 seasons...well i guess 11 full seasons. Could he go to a team like the Colts or 49ers and they make a SB run? Sure, he could. But...IMO he's not worth giving up a 1st round pick for *at the current time*...he's on the back 9, and getting closer to 18.
I don't think I'd part with a first rounder either, especially a top ten-ish one.
However, I would seriously consider a second. Sure, Stafford is 32, but 32 in today's game and rules is like being 28. And his salary isn't that punitive, particularly in '22.
So with him, it's a simple question - would Stafford make the Giants better for a second? I don't know how the answer isn't yes.
I'm not saying this is what I would do (I'd be deeper into the Watson sweepstakes), but it's an intriguing idea. Because right now, the NFCE is right there for the taking with the right parts.
Stafford has played 12 seasons...well i guess 11 full seasons. Could he go to a team like the Colts or 49ers and they make a SB run? Sure, he could. But...IMO he's not worth giving up a 1st round pick for *at the current time*...he's on the back 9, and getting closer to 18.
I don't think I'd part with a first rounder either, especially a top ten-ish one.
However, I would seriously consider a second. Sure, Stafford is 32, but 32 in today's game and rules is like being 28. And his salary isn't that punitive, particularly in '22.
So with him, it's a simple question - would Stafford make the Giants better for a second? I don't know how the answer isn't yes.
I'm not saying this is what I would do (I'd be deeper into the Watson sweepstakes), but it's an intriguing idea. Because right now, the NFCE is right there for the taking with the right parts.
Is that really a big prize? People here talked about how how silly it would be to call ourselves NFC champs this year because it was a function of general suckitude. HOw would that be different next year, as opposed to actually trying to build something sustainable (which Detroit already decided couldn't be done with an aging QB)?.
Stafford has played 12 seasons...well i guess 11 full seasons. Could he go to a team like the Colts or 49ers and they make a SB run? Sure, he could. But...IMO he's not worth giving up a 1st round pick for *at the current time*...he's on the back 9, and getting closer to 18.
I don't think I'd part with a first rounder either, especially a top ten-ish one.
However, I would seriously consider a second. Sure, Stafford is 32, but 32 in today's game and rules is like being 28. And his salary isn't that punitive, particularly in '22.
So with him, it's a simple question - would Stafford make the Giants better for a second? I don't know how the answer isn't yes.
I'm not saying this is what I would do (I'd be deeper into the Watson sweepstakes), but it's an intriguing idea. Because right now, the NFCE is right there for the taking with the right parts.
Is that really a big prize? People here talked about how how silly it would be to call ourselves NFC champs this year because it was a function of general suckitude. HOw would that be different next year, as opposed to actually trying to build something sustainable (which Detroit already decided couldn't be done with an aging QB)?.
Building around a quarterback that needs as much help as Jones does isn't sustainable.
apparently Stafford needs as much or more help than Jones.
He has one of the top WR's with him for several years and was able to manage zero playoff wins.
Meanwhile, the Giants likely don't have a top 25 WR on the field and the pitchfork monkeys act like Jones is one of the worst QB's to ever take the field.
Is that really a big prize? People here talked about how how silly it would be to call ourselves NFC champs this year because it was a function of general suckitude. HOw would that be different next year, as opposed to actually trying to build something sustainable (which Detroit already decided couldn't be done with an aging QB)?.
The goal every year should be to win the division. So I'm looking ahead now.
I'm pretty sure I know who Stafford is - a near pro bowl level player who played for a horrible organization and demonstrated he could be a force multiplier.
And I still don't know what we have in Jones. At best, he's probably a game manager that will require a lot of investments to try to optimize his abilities.
So I could see adding Stafford a very good solution for 3-4 years. That's a long time in the NFL.
with one of the top WR's by his side, the force multiplier had his team score in the top 10 of points 2 times. He was a force multiplier to zero playoff wins.
And the season the defense gave up the 3rd amount of points and the 2nd amount of years, the force multiplier led the offense to the 22nd most points!!
Is the definition of "force multiplier" the bullshit connotation when you can't tangibly point to actual impact a player has??
Is that really a big prize? People here talked about how how silly it would be to call ourselves NFC champs this year because it was a function of general suckitude. HOw would that be different next year, as opposed to actually trying to build something sustainable (which Detroit already decided couldn't be done with an aging QB)?.
The goal every year should be to win the division. So I'm looking ahead now.
I'm pretty sure I know who Stafford is - a near pro bowl level player who played for a horrible organization and demonstrated he could be a force multiplier.
And I still don't know what we have in Jones. At best, he's probably a game manager that will require a lot of investments to try to optimize his abilities.
So I could see adding Stafford a very good solution for 3-4 years. That's a long time in the NFL.
I'm usually right there with you bw...but I think you're wrong on this one.
I couldn't think of a worse QB to bring in where you trying to break a franchise that has grown accustom to losing.
I'd rather forge ahead with DJ or make a move to get a QB in this draft that looks like they might have the goods.
And, as you know, I'm not a huge DJ supporter.
Stafford just seems like a step backward for a team that is young and seemingly (hopefully) getting better.
so comparing Jones to Stafford is being laughed at, but comparing Stafford to Peyton Manning is fine??
Force multiplier my ass.
I'm comparing franchises and circumstances. Manning played for a HoF GM and Stafford has played for Martin Mayhew and Bob Quinn.
Wouldn't the better comparison be not the QB's but the team around them? We are less than Detroit and Stafford had no success for Detroit. Trading for Stafford changes the window because of his advanced age while also burning resources that could be used to better the surrounding team. And, I still say that nobody, including you and GT really know what Jones is yet.
I think I know what Jones isn't - an elite talent capable of carrying a team. So now the gamble is if Jones can be a high end game manager with the right infrastructure to produce points and wins. I'm very unsure of that part right now.
I hear you on Stafford concerns. It's not my lead solution in this exercise. But I am bewildered how quite a few don't see the talented player he is compared Jones. Is it even close?
I think I know what Jones isn't - an elite talent capable of carrying a team. So now the gamble is if Jones can be a high end game manager with the right infrastructure to produce points and wins. I'm very unsure of that part right now.
I hear you on Stafford concerns. It's not my lead solution in this exercise. But I am bewildered how quite a few don't see the talented player he is compared Jones. Is it even close?
Still waiting on my force multiplier equation, please.
my mind is not made up on DJ, and I welcome the possibility that he will take a very big jump in Year 3 and beyond.
that said, it is interesting that this off season includes a more than a few high profile, productive QBs looking for new homes (Watson, Stafford, Rodgers, Wentz, etc)... and I will only say that IF the Giants coaching staff felt this team would be better served with one of these guys at the helm, I hope our old fashioned way of doing business wouldn't stand in the way of making a move to one of these guys that Judge et al want to lead the team.
I think I know what Jones isn't - an elite talent capable of carrying a team. So now the gamble is if Jones can be a high end game manager with the right infrastructure to produce points and wins. I'm very unsure of that part right now.
I hear you on Stafford concerns. It's not my lead solution in this exercise. But I am bewildered how quite a few don't see the talented player he is compared Jones. Is it even close?
Get us some weapons on outside and Jones speed will be a massive weapon. Teams won't be able to double or play 2 high because you need to dedicate a spy. If you don't Jones will torch you on ground. It's really underrated part of his game and he should be coached to use it and recognize it. Having a QB as fast as he is is devastating when you get the defense to turn their back, which will happen often the way the line run blocks now and having Saquon back. Teams will absolutely need to play a lot of man against us and we need some players that can take advantage of it.
we are having discussion about Matthew Stafford, a guy who wasn't good as a rookie and then played 3 games in his second season....and went on to have a really solid career.....and saying that he is way better than Jones right now. No. shit. Jones has played 2 seasons.
It's called context. These conversations need it, badly.
I believe the more important part of this discussion is whether Stafford would be an upgrade for the Giants now and in the immediate future (3-4 years), rather than comparing their careers.
I offer no strong opinion about that - in fact I am on the fence b/c I still hold out hope for DJ... but it is not a ridiculous premise to say that the Giants would better off for the next 3-4 years with Stafford as QB over DJ...
though I put more stock in Judge's opinion on that than I do BBI... : )
I believe the more important part of this discussion is whether Stafford would be an upgrade for the Giants now and in the immediate future (3-4 years), rather than comparing their careers.
I offer no strong opinion about that - in fact I am on the fence b/c I still hold out hope for DJ... but it is not a ridiculous premise to say that the Giants would better off for the next 3-4 years with Stafford as QB over DJ...
though I put more stock in Judge's opinion on that than I do BBI... : )
Would hope DJ shows himself in year 3 as well.
Probably more likely that Stafford would be an upgrade, but as ryan suggests if the Lions did an upgrade at the beginning of Stafford's early career then he never turns into the one of the better QBs in the league in the end. Right?
This is all pie-in-sky thinking though as Judge and Giants are fully behind Jones for year 3.
I think I know what Jones isn't - an elite talent capable of carrying a team. So now the gamble is if Jones can be a high end game manager with the right infrastructure to produce points and wins. I'm very unsure of that part right now.
I hear you on Stafford concerns. It's not my lead solution in this exercise. But I am bewildered how quite a few don't see the talented player he is compared Jones. Is it even close?
Get us some weapons on outside and Jones speed will be a massive weapon. Teams won't be able to double or play 2 high because you need to dedicate a spy. If you don't Jones will torch you on ground. It's really underrated part of his game and he should be coached to use it and recognize it. Having a QB as fast as he is is devastating when you get the defense to turn their back, which will happen often the way the line run blocks now and having Saquon back. Teams will absolutely need to play a lot of man against us and we need some players that can take advantage of it.
Massive weapon? That a big proclamation.
Jones mobility is really a one-way - straight line speed with pretty good turn of foot getting to the edge. Which is a plus to a degree. But he isn't a shifty, elusive, quick QB player like any of the usual suspects. And he's a big target to get hit. So there is a a high risk variable for a guy who has shown some pattern of getting injured.
I like some designed runs, but I need to see so much more from the pocket (and elsewhere) before I can even entertain "massive weapon" territory.
I think I know what Jones isn't - an elite talent capable of carrying a team. So now the gamble is if Jones can be a high end game manager with the right infrastructure to produce points and wins. I'm very unsure of that part right now.
I hear you on Stafford concerns. It's not my lead solution in this exercise. But I am bewildered how quite a few don't see the talented player he is compared Jones. Is it even close?
Get us some weapons on outside and Jones speed will be a massive weapon. Teams won't be able to double or play 2 high because you need to dedicate a spy. If you don't Jones will torch you on ground. It's really underrated part of his game and he should be coached to use it and recognize it. Having a QB as fast as he is is devastating when you get the defense to turn their back, which will happen often the way the line run blocks now and having Saquon back. Teams will absolutely need to play a lot of man against us and we need some players that can take advantage of it.
Massive weapon? That a big proclamation.
Jones mobility is really a one-way - straight line speed with pretty good turn of foot getting to the edge. Which is a plus to a degree. But he isn't a shifty, elusive, quick QB player like any of the usual suspects. And he's a big target to get hit. So there is a a high risk variable for a guy who has shown some pattern of getting injured.
I like some designed runs, but I need to see so much more from the pocket (and elsewhere) before I can even entertain "massive weapon" territory.
Mahomes is a massive weapon.
Would you call Jones' running ability a force multiplier?
I think I know what Jones isn't - an elite talent capable of carrying a team. So now the gamble is if Jones can be a high end game manager with the right infrastructure to produce points and wins. I'm very unsure of that part right now.
I hear you on Stafford concerns. It's not my lead solution in this exercise. But I am bewildered how quite a few don't see the talented player he is compared Jones. Is it even close?
Still waiting on my force multiplier equation, please.
Sure. More points produced by the QB = more winning opportunities.
I think I know what Jones isn't - an elite talent capable of carrying a team. So now the gamble is if Jones can be a high end game manager with the right infrastructure to produce points and wins. I'm very unsure of that part right now.
I hear you on Stafford concerns. It's not my lead solution in this exercise. But I am bewildered how quite a few don't see the talented player he is compared Jones. Is it even close?
Get us some weapons on outside and Jones speed will be a massive weapon. Teams won't be able to double or play 2 high because you need to dedicate a spy. If you don't Jones will torch you on ground. It's really underrated part of his game and he should be coached to use it and recognize it. Having a QB as fast as he is is devastating when you get the defense to turn their back, which will happen often the way the line run blocks now and having Saquon back. Teams will absolutely need to play a lot of man against us and we need some players that can take advantage of it.
Massive weapon? That a big proclamation.
Jones mobility is really a one-way - straight line speed with pretty good turn of foot getting to the edge. Which is a plus to a degree. But he isn't a shifty, elusive, quick QB player like any of the usual suspects. And he's a big target to get hit. So there is a a high risk variable for a guy who has shown some pattern of getting injured.
I like some designed runs, but I need to see so much more from the pocket (and elsewhere) before I can even entertain "massive weapon" territory.
Mahomes is a massive weapon.
Massive? Devastating? I feel like I heard these same exact arguments when Barkley was drafted. This isn't Madden.
Jones is a nice runner. It definitely helps. But he's not Lamar, elusive, or even Mahomes, able to sling it on the run. Stop projecting what you think he'll be one day, and start looking at what he is.
Since Stafford has been there, the Lions have ranked 20th or lower in points scored 6 times.
But of course, we're regaled about his stat line being fantastic.....
I decided to revisit this now that I have time. Stafford has been the starter since 2011, and missed half of 2019 with an injury, so let's throw that year out. In essence, therefore, Stafford has been the FT starter for 9 years.
So FMiC focuses on the down years. However, the offense under Stafford did finish 4th, 7th, 13th, and 17th. So basically in half of his years as the starter, the Lions finished in the top half of the league in PPG, and twice in the top ten.
In the one year where they finished 20th, they still went 11-5 despite Megatron missing four games with an ankle injury.
And in the year where they finished 7th, in 2017, Megatron was retired and the receiving corp was Golden Tate and Marvin Jones.
Since Stafford has been there, the Lions have ranked 20th or lower in points scored 6 times.
But of course, we're regaled about his stat line being fantastic.....
I decided to revisit this now that I have time. Stafford has been the starter since 2011, and missed half of 2019 with an injury, so let's throw that year out. In essence, therefore, Stafford has been the FT starter for 9 years.
So FMiC focuses on the down years. However, the offense under Stafford did finish 4th, 7th, 13th, and 17th. So basically in half of his years as the starter, the Lions finished in the top half of the league in PPG, and twice in the top ten.
In the one year where they finished 20th, they still went 11-5 despite Megatron missing four games with an ankle injury.
And in the year where they finished 7th, in 2017, Megatron was retired and the receiving corp was Golden Tate and Marvin Jones.
Context is always interesting...
No offense. But 17 isn't the top half.
You could also frame that as: two top 10 offenses, two middle of the pack, and then four bottom half offenses. That wasn't a good stat for your point.
That means in more than half of his seasons, he had a bottom half offense (5/9). Although, two times, he had top ten offenses (2/9). Again though, not a great illustration of your point.
pointed out the two top 10 offenses above. And also what the offense did in a year where the defense was very good:
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with one of the top WR's by his side, the force multiplier had his team score in the top 10 of points 2 times. He was a force multiplier to zero playoff wins.
And the season the defense gave up the 3rd amount of points and the 2nd amount of years, the force multiplier led the offense to the 22nd most points!!
Since Stafford has been there, the Lions have ranked 20th or lower in points scored 6 times.
But of course, we're regaled about his stat line being fantastic.....
I decided to revisit this now that I have time. Stafford has been the starter since 2011, and missed half of 2019 with an injury, so let's throw that year out. In essence, therefore, Stafford has been the FT starter for 9 years.
So FMiC focuses on the down years. However, the offense under Stafford did finish 4th, 7th, 13th, and 17th. So basically in half of his years as the starter, the Lions finished in the top half of the league in PPG, and twice in the top ten.
In the one year where they finished 20th, they still went 11-5 despite Megatron missing four games with an ankle injury.
And in the year where they finished 7th, in 2017, Megatron was retired and the receiving corp was Golden Tate and Marvin Jones.
Context is always interesting...
Bw, it seems context is irrelevant with the Giants. Since Jones was the 6th pick he must overcome, and not be limited by circumstances. It seems when fans list reasonable factors as to why Jones has struggled the "6th overall pick" card gets played.
That means in more than half of his seasons, he had a bottom half offense (5/9). Although, two times, he had top ten offenses (2/9). Again though, not a great illustration of your point.
I said "in basically half of his years"...So rounding is implied. But fine. You are technically correct.
The underlying point still stands. Detroit did have years when their offensive production was good t- very good with Stafford in the saddle.
That means in more than half of his seasons, he had a bottom half offense (5/9). Although, two times, he had top ten offenses (2/9). Again though, not a great illustration of your point.
I said "in basically half of his years"...So rounding is implied. But fine. You are technically correct.
The underlying point still stands. Detroit did have years when their offensive production was good t- very good with Stafford in the saddle.
Wait a minute. Is that really the "underlying point"??
Isn't the point with Jones that he was the 6th pick and he has to elevate the team around him and be a "force multiplier"?? Stafford was the #1 overall pick!!
But hey, he had years where the offense was good to very good with him there.
I think some you need to call each other and have wild monkey sex. You are acting like young boys that do not know how to talk to girls yet, so you needle each other every chance you get. It looks like dislike, but you really want to kiss them.
Go for it.
I think some you need to call each other and have wild monkey sex. You are acting like young boys that do not know how to talk to girls yet, so you needle each other every chance you get. It looks like dislike, but you really want to kiss them.
Go for it.
Wow. This post is pretty weird. With that said, when this goes down, what do you suppose the Porn Hub title will be?
I think some you need to call each other and have wild monkey sex. You are acting like young boys that do not know how to talk to girls yet, so you needle each other every chance you get. It looks like dislike, but you really want to kiss them.
Go for it.
I don't even remember commenting on this thread and this is the first thing I see LOL
That means in more than half of his seasons, he had a bottom half offense (5/9). Although, two times, he had top ten offenses (2/9). Again though, not a great illustration of your point.
I said "in basically half of his years"...So rounding is implied. But fine. You are technically correct.
The underlying point still stands. Detroit did have years when their offensive production was good t- very good with Stafford in the saddle.
Underlying point? Top half 3 out of 9 years is now "basically half"? Weird.
Funny, but it really isn't if you watch the guy throw. He's very good at ball placement. MAybe even great. What Jones needs to work on is protecting the ball and decision making/reading the defense.
Too bad he was only allowed 20 games to master his craft. Maybe the next QB will be great right away. If not, cut him too.
Pat McAfee is pretty convinced the Colts are the destination with
the Pats being the other contender. Personally I'd love to see either. His stats will take a big hit going to Pats, but he'll win. Hope he gets a superbowl, so this nonsense about him gets put to rest and the whole QB is the whole team notion. I thought when Peyton's corpse won the SB it would, but he still had the name recognition and past SB success so people overlooked he was one of the worst QBs in the league that year.
I think some you need to call each other and have wild monkey sex. You are acting like young boys that do not know how to talk to girls yet, so you needle each other every chance you get. It looks like dislike, but you really want to kiss them.
Go for it.
Wow. This post is pretty weird. With that said, when this goes down, what do you suppose the Porn Hub title will be?
Charlottes Web?
FatMan Goes to DC?
Asking for a friend.
Who has the best Tight end?
Maybe old married couples would be a better example. We have good discussions then the old baggage rears its ugly head and poof ad hominem nonsense ensues.
RE: Pat McAfee is pretty convinced the Colts are the destination with
the Pats being the other contender. Personally I'd love to see either. His stats will take a big hit going to Pats, but he'll win. Hope he gets a superbowl, so this nonsense about him gets put to rest and the whole QB is the whole team notion. I thought when Peyton's corpse won the SB it would, but he still had the name recognition and past SB success so people overlooked he was one of the worst QBs in the league that year.
Rodgers was just very good on McAfee's show (AR's weekly Tuesday appearance). Guy is a breath of fresh air with his candor, whether you agree or disagree with his opinions.
I would love to see Rodgers with Reich or BB. Indy seems much closer to really competing, however, than the Pats, who have a lot of leaks in their dam...
RE: RE: Pat McAfee is pretty convinced the Colts are the destination with
the Pats being the other contender. Personally I'd love to see either. His stats will take a big hit going to Pats, but he'll win. Hope he gets a superbowl, so this nonsense about him gets put to rest and the whole QB is the whole team notion. I thought when Peyton's corpse won the SB it would, but he still had the name recognition and past SB success so people overlooked he was one of the worst QBs in the league that year.
Rodgers was just very good on McAfee's show (AR's weekly Tuesday appearance). Guy is a breath of fresh air with his candor, whether you agree or disagree with his opinions.
I would love to see Rodgers with Reich or BB. Indy seems much closer to really competing, however, than the Pats, who have a lot of leaks in their dam...
I thought I was the only one that watched that. Great show and a unique insight into the NFL. I always thought Rodgers got an unfair shake as far as what the media portrays him to be. Those interviews confirmed it for me. He's clearly a very introspective guy and, at this point, has mastered the line between candor and trying not to cross lines.
Today was very interesting to get a peak behind the curtain on how he feels about the Love pick. Obviously your franchise isn't commiting to him long term and he knows any offseason now he could have played his last game in a Packers uniform without knowing it. I mean he sounded like he wouldn't be shocked if they traded him this offseason.
I try to listen to PM's show when I can. I have never watched the stream. But he's pretty entertaining and has a lot of insight about the goings-on with the NFL. Mac and Rodgers have a very good rapport.
And I like Rodgers disdain for many in the conventional media.
He was very insightful today how he used video from 2010 to improve his mechanics and fix this subtle hitch he noticed...
Link - ( New Window )
Not sure if I see mutual fit for the Pats.
Wonder if they’ll let Stafford pick where he goes.
Curious of the Broncos make a run at him.
Good thoughts. He still has a lot of football left. Not ready to be a backup.
Lions won’t trade him in-division. So cross off the Bears.
Is going to be really confusing for you to go back and forth from LBH15 and Googs. Looking forward to it!
Not necessarily. And I say that only because everyone knew Patricia was a dead man waking. He and no GM shouldn't have made the call on a potential franchise QB. It was better in theory to let the new regime make that call. Who was available when they picked last year? If Herbert was (I think he was) then that is where practice and theory don't match up. They shouldn't have passed on him if they did.
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And Stafford is from Tampa so if Brady wins it all and retires maybe the Bucs are bidders. A bit of a stretch there.
Is going to be really confusing for you to go back and forth from LBH15 and Googs. Looking forward to it!
Not following you moojo.
Okudah was a can't miss CB prospect though.
Still, I'd love for Stafford to go somewhere and compete. He has earned it.
That would be an interesting landing spot as well for Stafford.
I’d give up our 1st in a second for him
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In comment 15131867 Jimmy Googs said:
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And Stafford is from Tampa so if Brady wins it all and retires maybe the Bucs are bidders. A bit of a stretch there.
Is going to be really confusing for you to go back and forth from LBH15 and Googs. Looking forward to it!
Not following you moojo.
Suuure thing. Just remember to double check who you are logged on as first. Don’t want to get tripped up. This board was becoming stale with redundant talk; this new development might make it interesting for a bit! LBH15 = Jimmy Googs.
You don’t want him. He’s not going to win us a SB.
Okudah was a can't miss CB prospect though.
Still, I'd love for Stafford to go somewhere and compete. He has earned it.
That is what didn't make sense last year. Patricia shouldn't have been retained last year. They gave it another shot but I wasn't sure what they were shooting for. They had a hard on for Caserio and waited for him. That was probably the main reason they passed on the QBs. I wasn't high on Tua last year especially with his injury history so I can't kill them for that but Herbert just seemed like a much better pro prospect. I remember watching him during the draft process and feeling like Oregon held him back with having him always out of the shotgun. He looked really good taking drops. He was very intriguing. And the only reason he dropped was because he had a down year. That will hurt.
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In comment 15131877 BubbaMojo said:
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In comment 15131867 Jimmy Googs said:
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And Stafford is from Tampa so if Brady wins it all and retires maybe the Bucs are bidders. A bit of a stretch there.
Is going to be really confusing for you to go back and forth from LBH15 and Googs. Looking forward to it!
Not following you moojo.
Suuure thing. Just remember to double check who you are logged on as first. Don’t want to get tripped up. This board was becoming stale with redundant talk; this new development might make it interesting for a bit! LBH15 = Jimmy Googs.
You seem tripped up yourself.
as a backup abso fucking lutely
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In comment 15131889 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15131877 BubbaMojo said:
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In comment 15131867 Jimmy Googs said:
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And Stafford is from Tampa so if Brady wins it all and retires maybe the Bucs are bidders. A bit of a stretch there.
Is going to be really confusing for you to go back and forth from LBH15 and Googs. Looking forward to it!
Not following you moojo.
Suuure thing. Just remember to double check who you are logged on as first. Don’t want to get tripped up. This board was becoming stale with redundant talk; this new development might make it interesting for a bit! LBH15 = Jimmy Googs.
You seem tripped up yourself.
lol, ok ok. Not going to waste my Saturday evening calling you out. Nobody is buying it, though. Have a good weekend.
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To get him here. Wonder what he’d cost
as a backup abso fucking lutely
A backup to who? Are we bringing in a 2nd QB too?
Stafford is a helluva QB, but he's getting up there in age.
I wonder if Dan would be kind to his old boss and push for a trade to NO if Payton is interested?
They are in deep cap hell. Don't see it.
Belichick is a very patient man. And he has a lot of problems to solve on offense beyond just QB.
I read all the time how putrid our WRs are (I don't think they are that bad, actually) but have you seen the Pats WRs? Meyers and Byrd are their "top two". Both undrafted players...
I would go Stafford in a minute.
I doubt that very much.
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never become a great QB, but he can most likely become at least as successful as Stafford. Hard pass on Stafford
I doubt that very much.
Color me surprised by your take
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never become a great QB, but he can most likely become at least as successful as Stafford. Hard pass on Stafford
I doubt that very much.
That is a bold statement indeed.
Stafford is a victim of playing for a horrible franchise. But he's immensely talented. From a throwing standpoint, Jones isn't in the same universe as Stafford.
Watson.
I wouldn't be surprised but there is a lot of work to be done.
Let me know when Jones throws for 5k yards and 40 tds.
Do you ever get tired of your own bullshit?
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never become a great QB, but he can most likely become at least as successful as Stafford. Hard pass on Stafford
Let me know when Jones throws for 5k yards and 40 tds.
** in one year **
I don’t see it. If Tua develops and Jets get Watson, they might be staring down the barrel of multiple double digit loss seasons for next few years.
Their OL has really detiorated again. Their D also isn’t good and very little coming out of the draft the last few years. McCourty, Chung are old. Hightower and Gilmore are on the decline. No real weapons at WR or TE anymore. James White is a FA. QB is just one of their question marks. They are very much entering a 3-4 year rebuild.
I would think right now, even without him, the WFT and a healthy Dallas are the top 2 favorites to win the division in 2021. Stafford probably puts them over the top
Haha. You might be right.
Well, he got royally screwed in their 2014 playoff game against Dallas. And he played very well in that game.
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And I know lions are a dumpster fire but has stafford ever won a big game in his whole career?
Well, he got royally screwed in their 2014 playoff game against Dallas. And he played very well in that game.
He played well enough to win for sure but his other two playoff games were less than stellar.
Such a BS comment. Why most don’t take you serious around here. And if you cut idiotic stuff like this out, you might need considered one of the better thinkers/posters around here, imo.
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To get him here. Wonder what he’d cost
as a backup abso fucking lutely
Stafford as the backup to Jones?
That would be the definition of scholarship.
Stafford has his share of shortcomings, but he laps Jones twice on physical talent as a QB.
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Jones's scholarship runs through 2021 at least.
Do you ever get tired of your own bullshit?
Is it an incorrect statement?
Stafford is significantly more talented than Jones and would represent an upgrade at the most important position on the field, yet we all know the Giants won't even put in a call. And the reason they won't? Jones's scholarship status.
Some of that was the talent he had around him and the coaching but its still there.
And of course BBI's resident "We Trust Judge in everything but QB's b/c we don't like ours" contingent is going to beat this subject to death.
Some of that was the talent he had around him and the coaching but its still there.
And of course BBI's resident "We Trust Judge in everything but QB's b/c we don't like ours" contingent is going to beat this subject to death.
Somehow he has closed the deal enough to lead the league in game-winning drives repeatedly during his career.
But we all know how much you love to just repeat players' college reputation throughout their NFL career.
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In comment 15131951 Go Terps said:
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Jones's scholarship runs through 2021 at least.
Do you ever get tired of your own bullshit?
Is it an incorrect statement?
Stafford is significantly more talented than Jones and would represent an upgrade at the most important position on the field, yet we all know the Giants won't even put in a call. And the reason they won't? Jones's scholarship status.
Or - Jones is almost a decade younger. Pointless to build around a 32-33 year old QB. Giants should look into Watson, though.
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has been the inability to close the deal, going back to his Georgia days.
Some of that was the talent he had around him and the coaching but its still there.
And of course BBI's resident "We Trust Judge in everything but QB's b/c we don't like ours" contingent is going to beat this subject to death.
Somehow he has closed the deal enough to lead the league in game-winning drives repeatedly during his career.
But we all know how much you love to just repeat players' college reputation throughout their NFL career.
Ultimately, unless one just likes to argue stats, the only stat that matters for a QB is winning games that count. Stafford has never taken the Lions past the Wild card round. I don't see him taking this Giants team every that far.
Really hope WFT doesn’t get one of these guys.
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
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They just haven't accepted it yet.
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
I hope I'm wrong too. I'm rooting for him... Jones being great is by far the best scenario for the Giants. But wanting it doesn't mean anything, and buying our heads in the sand and pretending doesn't make us better fans. It just makes us dumb.
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In comment 15131966 terz22 said:
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And I know lions are a dumpster fire but has stafford ever won a big game in his whole career?
Well, he got royally screwed in their 2014 playoff game against Dallas. And he played very well in that game.
He played well enough to win for sure but his other two playoff games were less than stellar.
In his first playoff game in 2012 against the Saints, Stafford threw for 380 yards, 8.8 YPA, 3 TDs, and 2 INTs, and a rushing TD. His QBR was 87.5 in that game, which is great.
They lost 45-28. There was no "D" in Detroit that day...
This would be a better use of money than paying Leonard Williams, and a better use of money than paying a free agent wide receiver.
Trade for Stafford, promote Kitchens to offensive coordinator, win NFC East in 2021.
Annnnnnd hes off folks!
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.
Annnnnnd hes off folks!
It's a pipe dream. Can't interrupt the scholarship.
This would be a better use of money than paying Leonard Williams, and a better use of money than paying a free agent wide receiver.
Trade for Stafford, promote Kitchens to offensive coordinator, win NFC East in 2021.
Sweet Lord, do you watch any Lions games? The fans here in Detroit have hated his contract extension the minute he signed it. He’s not a winner. They basically had no choice but to sign him given their mid first round draft position that year and needs in other areas. He’s now 33 with multiple injuries the past few years. I’m not saying Jones is going to be the guy, but it sure as shit isn’t going to be Stafford. Sign LW, get a stud receiver and give Jones his third season to see what he can do with actual weapons at his disposal.
Remember, Stafford had one of the best receivers in NFL history at his disposal in Calvin Johnson and still didn’t win anything.
This would be a better use of money than paying Leonard Williams, and a better use of money than paying a free agent wide receiver.
Trade for Stafford, promote Kitchens to offensive coordinator, win NFC East in 2021.
Sooooo, you advocate trading assets for a 32 year old QB when we are only past year 2 of pur current QB and letting our very best defensive player leave in FA at the age of 27?
That is definition of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Then, next year when our run defense and pass rush falters, you will surely blame it on some other theory because you have an agenda that you are hell bent on.
I would have loved to have played sports with you and listened to you bitch, piss and moan every time you got knocked down.
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In comment 15131958 Go Terps said:
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.
Annnnnnd hes off folks!
It's a pipe dream. Can't interrupt the scholarship.
Is that your new phrase du jour ypu are adopting? Lol, if Jones turns it around next year, I hope you have the balls...nope, not gonna go too far, the sense of pride to just fade into obscurity.
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In comment 15132042 chopperhatch said:
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In comment 15131958 Go Terps said:
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.
Annnnnnd hes off folks!
It's a pipe dream. Can't interrupt the scholarship.
Is that your new phrase du jour ypu are adopting? Lol, if Jones turns it around next year, I hope you have the balls...nope, not gonna go too far, the sense of pride to just fade into obscurity.
You've been loudly wrong on a lot of things as I recall, and you're still here.
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In comment 15132044 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15132042 chopperhatch said:
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In comment 15131958 Go Terps said:
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.
Annnnnnd hes off folks!
It's a pipe dream. Can't interrupt the scholarship.
Is that your new phrase du jour ypu are adopting? Lol, if Jones turns it around next year, I hope you have the balls...nope, not gonna go too far, the sense of pride to just fade into obscurity.
You've been loudly wrong on a lot of things as I recall, and you're still here.
Ummmmmmm, like what? Lol. I was wrong about the Giants extending Beckham, but Im pretty sure the entire sports world was wrong about that. Except you. That was your claim to fame.
I said I liked Jones, and still do but have been very critical of his play this year. I also didnt think the Giants would take him, but unlike you, I realize it takes more than two years for a QB to develop when he is surrounded by what Jones is.
Other than that, what you got?
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In comment 15132048 chopperhatch said:
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In comment 15132044 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15132042 chopperhatch said:
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In comment 15131958 Go Terps said:
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.
Annnnnnd hes off folks!
It's a pipe dream. Can't interrupt the scholarship.
Is that your new phrase du jour ypu are adopting? Lol, if Jones turns it around next year, I hope you have the balls...nope, not gonna go too far, the sense of pride to just fade into obscurity.
You've been loudly wrong on a lot of things as I recall, and you're still here.
Ummmmmmm, like what? Lol. I was wrong about the Giants extending Beckham, but Im pretty sure the entire sports world was wrong about that. Except you. That was your claim to fame.
I said I liked Jones, and still do but have been very critical of his play this year. I also didnt think the Giants would take him, but unlike you, I realize it takes more than two years for a QB to develop when he is surrounded by what Jones is.
Other than that, what you got?
Well said. I think Jones must have pissed in Terps Cheerios or something. The last QB we had who won us 2 Super Bowls looked pretty crappy his first few years and he had an excellent defense, Tiki Barber, Shockey, an excellent like, and Burress starting in year 2. People are way too impatient with QB’s nowadays.
However, Jones is not THAT bad, has been surrounded by shit on offense and has played with guts. Fact is, we have to pay him 2 more years at least. If he sucks at that point, you crumple it up and try again. But the miserable, Samba wearing gemius who probably sucked at every sport he had ever played because he bitched so much has chosen to double down on the negativity and suggest trading draft/player capital to a team for a 32 y/o QB who hasnt sniffed postseason success despute playing with an all time great WR.
You truly cant make this up. Terps lives to be miserable and thinks thats a good niche spot for himself. Fact is, he is just a pompous dick who got scared away by that meatball Joey in VA.
Agreed. Them or the Colts. Both teams are missing only QBs.
I think Pitt scraps the whole thing amd starts over if Haskins doesnt work out. I think the Pats are in the same boat. Thing is they have young pieces that could have value.
As a Giant fan, would you want to take a flier on N'Keal Harry? He prob wouldnt cost too much.
Trading for him for the Giants is a little more dicey because he’s owed a lot of money and they have Jones, and he’s a lot older than Jones, but make no mistake-he’s significantly better. Unless a different style offense unlocks the “5 TDs vs Washington in 2019” Daniel Jones for every game of course.
Bringing him on for nothing means we can't do anything else to improve the team. Sheesh.
Jones hasn't got a quarter of Stafford's natural talent and the fact that you don't see that shows you haven't got a clue about what you are looking at.
Terps, with his knowledge, could’ve been a really good poster for the board. But he really is nothing but insufferable. I see his name on a thread and my eyes roll. Going around snuffing out threads is a perfect description of what his role is on the board. Unfortunate.
WFT picked 2nd, still would have taken Thomas in that scenario.
well maybe not - but they would have gotten a QB - and wash would have traded with LA -- when we would have gotten CHase : )
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never become a great QB, but he can most likely become at least as successful as Stafford. Hard pass on Stafford
Jones hasn't got a quarter of Stafford's natural talent and the fact that you don't see that shows you haven't got a clue about what you are looking at.
Stafford in his prime, maybe, but Stafford now is even more brittle than Jones. Not to mention that despite his natural talent and having people like Calvin Johnson around him he has won nothing.
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In comment 15131927 Bill in UT said:
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never become a great QB, but he can most likely become at least as successful as Stafford. Hard pass on Stafford
Jones hasn't got a quarter of Stafford's natural talent and the fact that you don't see that shows you haven't got a clue about what you are looking at.
Stafford in his prime, maybe, but Stafford now is even more brittle than Jones. Not to mention that despite his natural talent and having people like Calvin Johnson around him he has won nothing.
I'm not saying the Giants should be in on Stafford - I don't think it is their time for a move like that (unlike with the younger Watson). But Stafford is still immensely gifted and Jones will never have his physical traits.
However, Jones is not THAT bad, has been surrounded by shit on offense and has played with guts. Fact is, we have to pay him 2 more years at least. If he sucks at that point, you crumple it up and try again. But the miserable, Samba wearing gemius who probably sucked at every sport he had ever played because he bitched so much has chosen to double down on the negativity and suggest trading draft/player capital to a team for a 32 y/o QB who hasnt sniffed postseason success despute playing with an all time great WR.
You truly cant make this up. Terps lives to be miserable and thinks thats a good niche spot for himself. Fact is, he is just a pompous dick who got scared away by that meatball Joey in VA.
What a stupid set of posts. People who think the Giants should move on from Jones aren’t a “cult” following a leader. They are people who hold a similar opinion. Why are you so upset that some people hold an opinion different that yours?
And the “I wish I could have played sports against you to watch you whine when you got knocked down?” How insecure are you?
Opinions on the Giants QB shouldn’t scare you, chopper. It will all be ok. Just breathe a little, buddy.
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whomever trades for Stafford is on the hook for $20M in 2021 and $23M in 2022.
This would be a better use of money than paying Leonard Williams, and a better use of money than paying a free agent wide receiver.
Trade for Stafford, promote Kitchens to offensive coordinator, win NFC East in 2021.
Sweet Lord, do you watch any Lions games? The fans here in Detroit have hated his contract extension the minute he signed it. He’s not a winner. They basically had no choice but to sign him given their mid first round draft position that year and needs in other areas. He’s now 33 with multiple injuries the past few years. I’m not saying Jones is going to be the guy, but it sure as shit isn’t going to be Stafford. Sign LW, get a stud receiver and give Jones his third season to see what he can do with actual weapons at his disposal.
Remember, Stafford had one of the best receivers in NFL history at his disposal in Calvin Johnson and still didn’t win anything.
^This. Trading Jones and a second round pick for Stafford is ludicrous.
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Probably a 2 and extra high conditional pick for 2022 or player.
I’d give up our 1st in a second for him
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In comment 15132038 Go Terps said:
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whomever trades for Stafford is on the hook for $20M in 2021 and $23M in 2022.
This would be a better use of money than paying Leonard Williams, and a better use of money than paying a free agent wide receiver.
Trade for Stafford, promote Kitchens to offensive coordinator, win NFC East in 2021.
Sweet Lord, do you watch any Lions games? The fans here in Detroit have hated his contract extension the minute he signed it. He’s not a winner. They basically had no choice but to sign him given their mid first round draft position that year and needs in other areas. He’s now 33 with multiple injuries the past few years. I’m not saying Jones is going to be the guy, but it sure as shit isn’t going to be Stafford. Sign LW, get a stud receiver and give Jones his third season to see what he can do with actual weapons at his disposal.
Remember, Stafford had one of the best receivers in NFL history at his disposal in Calvin Johnson and still didn’t win anything.
^This. Trading Jones and a second round pick for Stafford is ludicrous.
Oh.. well if I could have Stafford for Jones and a second round pick, well I'd consider that. Jones is garbage.
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that emerged when we took Jones over Josh Allen. Everybody in that following needed a band leader (think the parent who went after Joe Clark in Lean On Me...thats Terps) to supplement all of the nepotism and good ol boy rhetoric that became the new narrative to resuscitate the same argument from the 70s. That is they spout off enough negative shit, and the Giants are terrible for another 10 years, they get equity or something in the football fan universe.
However, Jones is not THAT bad, has been surrounded by shit on offense and has played with guts. Fact is, we have to pay him 2 more years at least. If he sucks at that point, you crumple it up and try again. But the miserable, Samba wearing gemius who probably sucked at every sport he had ever played because he bitched so much has chosen to double down on the negativity and suggest trading draft/player capital to a team for a 32 y/o QB who hasnt sniffed postseason success despute playing with an all time great WR.
You truly cant make this up. Terps lives to be miserable and thinks thats a good niche spot for himself. Fact is, he is just a pompous dick who got scared away by that meatball Joey in VA.
What a stupid set of posts. People who think the Giants should move on from Jones aren’t a “cult” following a leader. They are people who hold a similar opinion. Why are you so upset that some people hold an opinion different that yours?
And the “I wish I could have played sports against you to watch you whine when you got knocked down?” How insecure are you?
Opinions on the Giants QB shouldn’t scare you, chopper. It will all be ok. Just breathe a little, buddy.
Ahhh ok Dr. mike.
It has nothing to do with having a differing opinion and more to do with certain posters going out of their way to bring up Jones' lack of success this season. They say the exact same thing and he does it more than anybody else and people rarely offer any substance to their argument. As in referring to specifics about his game that is not improving. I was very outspoken earlier in the year when he was fumbling a lot still. He started to improve upon it and I moved on. But now, there will be a thread about the line and some asshole with no ability to detach themselves from the mob will comment with "Nick Gates can play Dermonti Dawson and Jones will suck ass." Nothing to do with the topic and its always the same guys.
The comment about sports only had to do with how much I loved to watch guys who bitch and moan on the field /court get knocked around and eventually unravel.
The reality is we invested the #6 overall pick in this guy and he has flashed enough to warrant evaluating him in year 3. Not trying to make excuses for him, but he had virtually no weapons once Barkley went down and he was learning his second new offense on his first two years. This being a bizarre offseason certainly didn’t help with that.
Signing a 33 year old QB who has been hurt multiple times the last few seasons is not going to help our team. It’s not like Stafford is a guy who has had tons of success. And he’s had some talented players in his teams over the years.
The reality is we invested the #6 overall pick in this guy and he has flashed enough to warrant evaluating him in year 3. Not trying to make excuses for him, but he had virtually no weapons once Barkley went down and he was learning his second new offense on his first two years. This being a bizarre offseason certainly didn’t help with that.
Signing a 33 year old QB who has been hurt multiple times the last few seasons is not going to help our team. It’s not like Stafford is a guy who has had tons of success. And he’s had some talented players in his teams over the years.
Sorry, I meant to say trading for, not signing Stafford. You would potentially be giving up a first round pick to get him. And you have to pay him 20+ million a year. With the cap decreasing this year that means you are probably losing LW, Tomlinson, no FA receivers, and you lose your first round pick. For a 33 year old QB who is immobile and will have no weapons to throw to. If we lost those 2 defensive lineman there’s no way we would take WR in round 2 or 3.
Exactly, I mean look at Rivers as an example. That’s terrific the Colts got to the playoffs, but where are they now at QB? They won enough games to put them completely out of contention for any of the top QB’s in the draft. Unless they want to give up some crazy haul of picks. Trading for or signing old injured QB’s is not a recipe for success in most cases.
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that's the reason why he and Detroit are parting ways. He's taken such a beating throughout his career that he's at least 5 years worse off physically than he should be. If we got Stafford it would be a 1-2 year stopgap at best. We still wouldn't get close to a Super Bowl and we wouldn't be closer to getting a franchise QB than just letting Jones play out another year, maybe two and seeing him fail. Anybody advocating us picking up Stafford and actually thinking he'd bring us a Super Bowl is out of their minds
Exactly, I mean look at Rivers as an example. That’s terrific the Colts got to the playoffs, but where are they now at QB? They won enough games to put them completely out of contention for any of the top QB’s in the draft. Unless they want to give up some crazy haul of picks. Trading for or signing old injured QB’s is not a recipe for success in most cases.
Yup, Stafford only makes sense for a team like San Francisco or Indianapolis who have to win now and could see their window for winning shut in a year or two. Stafford isn't good enough to get the Giants to a Super Bowl as currently constructed. The other thing with Stafford is he gets injured a lot so you need to spend money on a backup QB who can play. The Giants aren't doing that so they'd turn Jones into a backup which isn't the point of trying to develop him into a franchise QB. The best case scenario of Stafford with the Giants is maybe one playoff win in two seasons of relative health before he completely falls off a cliff physically.
This is exactly right. Not to mention his salary restricting us from keeping valuable assets and adding pieces to plug holes of which we still have plenty.
It would be nice if anyone expressing an opinion on this board could be in some camp other than "Terps" or "ryanmkeane." There is a shit ton of space on that spectrum between those two extremes.
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that's the reason why he and Detroit are parting ways. He's taken such a beating throughout his career that he's at least 5 years worse off physically than he should be. If we got Stafford it would be a 1-2 year stopgap at best. We still wouldn't get close to a Super Bowl and we wouldn't be closer to getting a franchise QB than just letting Jones play out another year, maybe two and seeing him fail. Anybody advocating us picking up Stafford and actually thinking he'd bring us a Super Bowl is out of their minds
This is exactly right. Not to mention his salary restricting us from keeping valuable assets and adding pieces to plug holes of which we still have plenty.
Well I checked the stats and they don't necessarily say Stafford is cooked. Maybe, but quite possibly he can still play at a high level.
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In comment 15132005 Go Terps said:
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They just haven't accepted it yet.
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
I hope I'm wrong too. I'm rooting for him... Jones being great is by far the best scenario for the Giants. But wanting it doesn't mean anything, and buying our heads in the sand and pretending doesn't make us better fans. It just makes us dumb.
Jones being great is the scenario we have to pursue for one more year, maybe two if he improves a lot next year and becomes very good. The scenario we can't pursue is giving up a lot of cap space for an over the hill QB in Stafford who you know can't get better and won't make us that much better than 8-8 or 9-7 in a stopgap year or two
Where is garrapolo going? I’m honestly asking because I have no idea. I’d take him over stafford in a heartbeat. I don’t have Stafford but don’t love go anymore either. I want to find the guy here who likes Stafford right now but wanted Eli dumped prior to 2019. I’ll bet there’s a high number. Eli from 14-16 was pretty good. Probably even better than Stafford or at least a bit more consistent. Not sure how Stafford is so much better. I’d be ok with him, but have a hard time vaulting him to savior status. Maybe in SF if they are healthy, sure, Stafford could help. Why is he better than garrapolo?
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In comment 15132010 rasbutant said:
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In comment 15132005 Go Terps said:
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They just haven't accepted it yet.
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
I hope I'm wrong too. I'm rooting for him... Jones being great is by far the best scenario for the Giants. But wanting it doesn't mean anything, and buying our heads in the sand and pretending doesn't make us better fans. It just makes us dumb.
Jones being great is the scenario we have to pursue for one more year, maybe two if he improves a lot next year and becomes very good. The scenario we can't pursue is giving up a lot of cap space for an over the hill QB in Stafford who you know can't get better and won't make us that much better than 8-8 or 9-7 in a stopgap year or two
Cap space and at least one high draft pick. We’re not a good enough team to be throwing away first and second round picks for mediocre QB’s.
To me it comes down to this season. If he doesn’t improve its time to move on.
no stats do not lie all the time. Taken as a whole stats tell you who the best QBs are and who the bad QBs are. The stats say Rodgers, Mahomes, Wilson are always among the best. They say for 2020 Stafford was somewhere between 10 and 15. And they say Jones was bottom 5. You are just saying stats lie all the time bc they are telling you now that Jones is terrible, and you don't like that conclusion.
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In comment 15132291 dpinzow said:
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that's the reason why he and Detroit are parting ways. He's taken such a beating throughout his career that he's at least 5 years worse off physically than he should be. If we got Stafford it would be a 1-2 year stopgap at best. We still wouldn't get close to a Super Bowl and we wouldn't be closer to getting a franchise QB than just letting Jones play out another year, maybe two and seeing him fail. Anybody advocating us picking up Stafford and actually thinking he'd bring us a Super Bowl is out of their minds
This is exactly right. Not to mention his salary restricting us from keeping valuable assets and adding pieces to plug holes of which we still have plenty.
Well I checked the stats and they don't necessarily say Stafford is cooked. Maybe, but quite possibly he can still play at a high level.
Detroit is letting Stafford go because he is close to finished. They are in a rebuild and he won't be good enough to win them games in 2 years when they hope to have a competitive team again. We are also most likely 2 years away from hopefully being good and Stafford will be a very old 35 at that time due to his injury history. If you've ever seen Detroit games, Stafford gets injured constantly so you have to build a dominant OL or have a backup QB almost as good as Stafford if you want to remain competitive over the very short period he is viable...
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In comment 15132010 rasbutant said:
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In comment 15132005 Go Terps said:
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They just haven't accepted it yet.
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
I hope I'm wrong too. I'm rooting for him... Jones being great is by far the best scenario for the Giants. But wanting it doesn't mean anything, and buying our heads in the sand and pretending doesn't make us better fans. It just makes us dumb.
Jones being great is the scenario we have to pursue for one more year, maybe two if he improves a lot next year and becomes very good. The scenario we can't pursue is giving up a lot of cap space for an over the hill QB in Stafford who you know can't get better and won't make us that much better than 8-8 or 9-7 in a stopgap year or two
You would waste two more years waiting for Jones to play well? That is insane, and if the Giants follow your lead I will stop watching until they come to their senses are run themselves like a modern organization. He has done nothing to show he is capable of being a championship QB. They should consider drafting a QB in the first round of there is one available who they like.. Or better yet try to trade for Watson.
It would be nice if anyone expressing an opinion on this board could be in some camp other than "Terps" or "ryanmkeane." There is a shit ton of space on that spectrum between those two extremes.
I think there are more than a few not in those camps. To me, any camp saying that Jones is what he is at this point whether good or bad with certainty stand in the way of honest conversation. I have no problem with fans having doubt about Jones, there is good reason from a fan pov to have doubt. Jones also showed in his rookie year why it isn't unreasonable to have hope.
Fans saying that Jones will never get better, or will always have the same fundamental issues seem to hold their opinion high enough to speak in absolutes. That also cuts both ways, if fans on here are talking down to fans that doubt and or speaking with authority that Jones is a franchise qb and anyone that can't see it are full of it just as the other side I spoke about above. Are they deliberately full of it, or just not know any better?
To me it comes down to this season. If he doesn’t improve its time to move on.
I think it's more likely (80%) that Jones doesn't become a franchise QB but the 20% chance he does is better than the virtually 0% chance you have of playoff success with Stafford on this team
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In comment 15132012 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15132010 rasbutant said:
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In comment 15132005 Go Terps said:
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They just haven't accepted it yet.
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
I hope I'm wrong too. I'm rooting for him... Jones being great is by far the best scenario for the Giants. But wanting it doesn't mean anything, and buying our heads in the sand and pretending doesn't make us better fans. It just makes us dumb.
Jones being great is the scenario we have to pursue for one more year, maybe two if he improves a lot next year and becomes very good. The scenario we can't pursue is giving up a lot of cap space for an over the hill QB in Stafford who you know can't get better and won't make us that much better than 8-8 or 9-7 in a stopgap year or two
You would waste two more years waiting for Jones to play well? That is insane, and if the Giants follow your lead I will stop watching until they come to their senses are run themselves like a modern organization. He has done nothing to show he is capable of being a championship QB. They should consider drafting a QB in the first round of there is one available who they like.. Or better yet try to trade for Watson.
It takes QB’s more than 2 years to know how good they are in many many cases. From a salary cap perspective you almost have to see how he does. Any trade for a guy like Watson would cost us a ton of cash and draft picks. We’re not one player away from being a good team. If you want to be 8-8 or 9-7 forever go ahead and make a trade for Watson or Stafford. They won’t have any receivers to throw to other than Shepard and our defense will be weakened substantially by losing guys like LW and Tomlinson.
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Detroit has multiple WR who can start for us and a great TE in Hockenson. Not to mention lack of defense caused a lot of inflation from garbage time.
no stats do not lie all the time. Taken as a whole stats tell you who the best QBs are and who the bad QBs are. The stats say Rodgers, Mahomes, Wilson are always among the best. They say for 2020 Stafford was somewhere between 10 and 15. And they say Jones was bottom 5. You are just saying stats lie all the time bc they are telling you now that Jones is terrible, and you don't like that conclusion.
That is not why I say stats lie. As Watson’s contract is less prohibitive than I thought it was, I would absolutely be in favor of him at the right price. If you had Detroit’s weapons I think Jones ends up 2020 with comparable stats. The difference is Jones still has potential whereas Stafford is on the downside of his career thanks to injuries. For a Day 3 pick I don’t have an issue with Stafford. Anything further no sale.
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In comment 15132012 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15132010 rasbutant said:
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In comment 15132005 Go Terps said:
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They just haven't accepted it yet.
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
I hope I'm wrong too. I'm rooting for him... Jones being great is by far the best scenario for the Giants. But wanting it doesn't mean anything, and buying our heads in the sand and pretending doesn't make us better fans. It just makes us dumb.
Jones being great is the scenario we have to pursue for one more year, maybe two if he improves a lot next year and becomes very good. The scenario we can't pursue is giving up a lot of cap space for an over the hill QB in Stafford who you know can't get better and won't make us that much better than 8-8 or 9-7 in a stopgap year or two
You would waste two more years waiting for Jones to play well? That is insane, and if the Giants follow your lead I will stop watching until they come to their senses are run themselves like a modern organization. He has done nothing to show he is capable of being a championship QB. They should consider drafting a QB in the first round of there is one available who they like.. Or better yet try to trade for Watson.
We don't have the assets to trade for Watson. I agree that he's the guy to pursue but I don't think the Giants can offer what the Jets have (the #2 pick, another 1st round pick and Darnold).
You also misunderstood what I said. I said "maybe two years" if Jones elevates his play to an above average level. If he doesn't then we cut bait after next season and draft another QB. I think there's a 20% chance Jones becomes the guy, but that's better than the 0% chance Stafford has of winning us anything as a veteran stopgap
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In comment 15132326 dpinzow said:
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In comment 15132012 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15132010 rasbutant said:
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In comment 15132005 Go Terps said:
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They just haven't accepted it yet.
What's a better team in 2021? The Giants with Jones and Garrett as the OC? Or Stafford and Kitchens as the OC?
Everyone is talking about how they want to acquire wife receiver talent - that isn't going to make the offense much better. It may elevate the 31st offense to the 24th, but it will still be bad.
Trade for Stafford (offer Detroit Jones and a second rounder...that might do it) and make Kitchens the OC, and that will improve the offense more than any FA or draft picks could.
We don't have a quarterback. It's just a matter of whether we accept that now or next year.
I hope you are wrong. But I can understand the viewpoint. Jones has proven nothing to this point. But I am rooting for him and I want him to succeed. His demeanor and attitude just the way he carries himself he will make a great face of the franchise. However he has to be good enough to win.
We’d be lucky to have Stafford at QB. Just really really hoping he doesn’t go to the WFT.
I hope I'm wrong too. I'm rooting for him... Jones being great is by far the best scenario for the Giants. But wanting it doesn't mean anything, and buying our heads in the sand and pretending doesn't make us better fans. It just makes us dumb.
Jones being great is the scenario we have to pursue for one more year, maybe two if he improves a lot next year and becomes very good. The scenario we can't pursue is giving up a lot of cap space for an over the hill QB in Stafford who you know can't get better and won't make us that much better than 8-8 or 9-7 in a stopgap year or two
You would waste two more years waiting for Jones to play well? That is insane, and if the Giants follow your lead I will stop watching until they come to their senses are run themselves like a modern organization. He has done nothing to show he is capable of being a championship QB. They should consider drafting a QB in the first round of there is one available who they like.. Or better yet try to trade for Watson.
We don't have the assets to trade for Watson. I agree that he's the guy to pursue but I don't think the Giants can offer what the Jets have (the #2 pick, another 1st round pick and Darnold).
You also misunderstood what I said. I said "maybe two years" if Jones elevates his play to an above average level. If he doesn't then we cut bait after next season and draft another QB. I think there's a 20% chance Jones becomes the guy, but that's better than the 0% chance Stafford has of winning us anything as a veteran stopgap
I don't favor adding Stafford to this team if the cost is going to be high. But if it's Jones and a 2nd round pick as some have suggested (which I know it is not bc I don't think Detroit wants Jones) I would do that. Stafford has super talent. Jones doesn't.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
Daniel Jones will not ever be as good as Matthew Stafford, whether you accept it or not.
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the negative shit about Jones. Everyone seems to love Matthew Stafford - but for all you stats guys who somehow love Stafford- let’s take a look at his career as a whole. He went 13 TD and 20 picks as a rookie, was then hurt for basically the entire season in his second year, had a great year 3, and then after that, he’s averaged basically 26-27 TD and around 15 picks every season since. His best year aside from year 3 was 32 and 13 in 2015 which was his *7th* year in the league.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
Daniel Jones will not ever be as good as Matthew Stafford, whether you accept it or not.
I don’t agree. Jones has something that Stafford does not, mobility. In today’s NFL it is much more important for a QB to have some level of mobility. Look at today’s games. The only immobile guy is Brady of the four teams. Rodgers doesn’t run around as much as he used to, but he can if needed.
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the negative shit about Jones. Everyone seems to love Matthew Stafford - but for all you stats guys who somehow love Stafford- let’s take a look at his career as a whole. He went 13 TD and 20 picks as a rookie, was then hurt for basically the entire season in his second year, had a great year 3, and then after that, he’s averaged basically 26-27 TD and around 15 picks every season since. His best year aside from year 3 was 32 and 13 in 2015 which was his *7th* year in the league.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
Daniel Jones will not ever be as good as Matthew Stafford, whether you accept it or not.
Whether you accept it or not? Great take looking for an obvious fight.
Have my doubts on Jones but to suggest he is incapable of reaching Stafford-level heights goes too far.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
This is not to mention the Giants lacking weapons above a tier 2 receiver and a line that started to come together midway through his second season.
How people can sincerely assess Jones as being a poor QB given what cards he has been dealt is astonishing to me. I have really gone off on Terps but he is fairly on point when it comes to football. I think he gets stuck in a rut and sounds like a broken record when he decides to get on one, but he knows the game.
But aside from the fumbling, he has one very good seadon and one sub par season. He has shown incredible dual threat ability, hes very tough and his teammates like him. He def has work to do, but to say he sucks is just people who want to still be mad we didnt take Josh Allen (either). Its the same thing as when people remain pissed off at Barkley even tho when healthy he is probably the biggest game breaker in the NFL
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In comment 15132370 ryanmkeane said:
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the negative shit about Jones. Everyone seems to love Matthew Stafford - but for all you stats guys who somehow love Stafford- let’s take a look at his career as a whole. He went 13 TD and 20 picks as a rookie, was then hurt for basically the entire season in his second year, had a great year 3, and then after that, he’s averaged basically 26-27 TD and around 15 picks every season since. His best year aside from year 3 was 32 and 13 in 2015 which was his *7th* year in the league.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
Daniel Jones will not ever be as good as Matthew Stafford, whether you accept it or not.
Whether you accept it or not? Great take looking for an obvious fight.
Have my doubts on Jones but to suggest he is incapable of reaching Stafford-level heights goes too far.
FUCK Producer. All he produces are garbage thoughts.
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
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the negative shit about Jones. Everyone seems to love Matthew Stafford - but for all you stats guys who somehow love Stafford- let’s take a look at his career as a whole. He went 13 TD and 20 picks as a rookie, was then hurt for basically the entire season in his second year, had a great year 3, and then after that, he’s averaged basically 26-27 TD and around 15 picks every season since. His best year aside from year 3 was 32 and 13 in 2015 which was his *7th* year in the league.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
This is not to mention the Giants lacking weapons above a tier 2 receiver and a line that started to come together midway through his second season.
How people can sincerely assess Jones as being a poor QB given what cards he has been dealt is astonishing to me. I have really gone off on Terps but he is fairly on point when it comes to football. I think he gets stuck in a rut and sounds like a broken record when he decides to get on one, but he knows the game.
But aside from the fumbling, he has one very good seadon and one sub par season. He has shown incredible dual threat ability, hes very tough and his teammates like him. He def has work to do, but to say he sucks is just people who want to still be mad we didnt take Josh Allen (either). Its the same thing as when people remain pissed off at Barkley even tho when healthy he is probably the biggest game breaker in the NFL
Totally agree. We weren’t the only team to pass on Allen. But all I keep reading on here now is how many posters thought he was terrific and they wanted him back in that draft. All I remember was the Rosen fan club. I don’t remember many calling for Josh Allen to be drafted at 2.
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In comment 15132374 Producer said:
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In comment 15132370 ryanmkeane said:
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the negative shit about Jones. Everyone seems to love Matthew Stafford - but for all you stats guys who somehow love Stafford- let’s take a look at his career as a whole. He went 13 TD and 20 picks as a rookie, was then hurt for basically the entire season in his second year, had a great year 3, and then after that, he’s averaged basically 26-27 TD and around 15 picks every season since. His best year aside from year 3 was 32 and 13 in 2015 which was his *7th* year in the league.
So, sorry guys but I’m not buying this notion that Daniel Jones can’t become as good or better than Matthew Stafford. And it’s funny how everything thinks stats are the perfect measure for a franchise QB, but Stafford really hasn’t been all that impressive throughout his career when it comes to that. He’s been a pretty good to very good QB for them. But there’s a reason they are moving on.
Daniel Jones will not ever be as good as Matthew Stafford, whether you accept it or not.
Whether you accept it or not? Great take looking for an obvious fight.
Have my doubts on Jones but to suggest he is incapable of reaching Stafford-level heights goes too far.
FUCK Producer. All he produces are garbage thoughts.
I think it's Go Terps' dupe
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
Stafford has all the stats, that’s a weird thing to bring up.
Stafford had a top 30 all time season as a QB in his 3rd season and won 10 games. If Jones goes 5K and 41/16 next year — literally every poster on this site will be praising him.
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if everyone is making the argument that Stafford is a franchise QB, why hasn’t he “elevated his teammates” and won some playoff games? Why doesn’t he have amazing stats? These are things you are asking Jones to do right? In year 3 right?
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
Stafford has all the stats, that’s a weird thing to bring up.
Stafford had a top 30 all time season as a QB in his 3rd season and won 10 games. If Jones goes 5K and 41/16 next year — literally every poster on this site will be praising him.
We've talked before about the importance of timing along with resource allocation. Stafford's got two years left on his deal - good amount of time for them to figure out the future at the position while still remaining competitive now.
If we're equating dollars to wins, it's a better use of $20M than it would be to pay Williams, and certainly better than paying a free agent WR.
We would have won 8+ games with Stafford this season.
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In comment 15132649 ryanmkeane said:
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if everyone is making the argument that Stafford is a franchise QB, why hasn’t he “elevated his teammates” and won some playoff games? Why doesn’t he have amazing stats? These are things you are asking Jones to do right? In year 3 right?
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
Stafford has all the stats, that’s a weird thing to bring up.
Stafford had a top 30 all time season as a QB in his 3rd season and won 10 games. If Jones goes 5K and 41/16 next year — literally every poster on this site will be praising him.
We've talked before about the importance of timing along with resource allocation. Stafford's got two years left on his deal - good amount of time for them to figure out the future at the position while still remaining competitive now.
If we're equating dollars to wins, it's a better use of $20M than it would be to pay Williams, and certainly better than paying a free agent WR.
We would have won 8+ games with Stafford this season.
I’m not defending Jones here, he wasn’t very good to say the least. But this team has 8+ wins if Engram could hold on to the damn ball. He was directly respond for 2-3 losses because of his untimely mishaps
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In comment 15132905 christian said:
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In comment 15132649 ryanmkeane said:
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if everyone is making the argument that Stafford is a franchise QB, why hasn’t he “elevated his teammates” and won some playoff games? Why doesn’t he have amazing stats? These are things you are asking Jones to do right? In year 3 right?
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
Stafford has all the stats, that’s a weird thing to bring up.
Stafford had a top 30 all time season as a QB in his 3rd season and won 10 games. If Jones goes 5K and 41/16 next year — literally every poster on this site will be praising him.
We've talked before about the importance of timing along with resource allocation. Stafford's got two years left on his deal - good amount of time for them to figure out the future at the position while still remaining competitive now.
If we're equating dollars to wins, it's a better use of $20M than it would be to pay Williams, and certainly better than paying a free agent WR.
We would have won 8+ games with Stafford this season.
I’m not defending Jones here, he wasn’t very good to say the least. But this team has 8+ wins if Engram could hold on to the damn ball. He was directly respond for 2-3 losses because of his untimely mishaps
You may be right. But the reason Engram's crucial plays hurt so much is that the offense couldn't generate points in large part due to poor quarterback play. With competent quarterbacking a couple drops are less likely to be game changers.
Have to improve at QB. Be it through Jones getting better or some other route. You can't survive by hoping to hold the opposition under 20 points.
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In comment 15132649 ryanmkeane said:
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if everyone is making the argument that Stafford is a franchise QB, why hasn’t he “elevated his teammates” and won some playoff games? Why doesn’t he have amazing stats? These are things you are asking Jones to do right? In year 3 right?
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
Stafford has all the stats, that’s a weird thing to bring up.
Stafford had a top 30 all time season as a QB in his 3rd season and won 10 games. If Jones goes 5K and 41/16 next year — literally every poster on this site will be praising him.
We've talked before about the importance of timing along with resource allocation. Stafford's got two years left on his deal - good amount of time for them to figure out the future at the position while still remaining competitive now.
If we're equating dollars to wins, it's a better use of $20M than it would be to pay Williams, and certainly better than paying a free agent WR.
We would have won 8+ games with Stafford this season.
We would have won at most 8 games with Stafford this year. Maybe he pulls out another game or two to win a weak division. But as a long term answer, he isn't it either
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In comment 15132968 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15132905 christian said:
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In comment 15132649 ryanmkeane said:
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if everyone is making the argument that Stafford is a franchise QB, why hasn’t he “elevated his teammates” and won some playoff games? Why doesn’t he have amazing stats? These are things you are asking Jones to do right? In year 3 right?
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
Stafford has all the stats, that’s a weird thing to bring up.
Stafford had a top 30 all time season as a QB in his 3rd season and won 10 games. If Jones goes 5K and 41/16 next year — literally every poster on this site will be praising him.
We've talked before about the importance of timing along with resource allocation. Stafford's got two years left on his deal - good amount of time for them to figure out the future at the position while still remaining competitive now.
If we're equating dollars to wins, it's a better use of $20M than it would be to pay Williams, and certainly better than paying a free agent WR.
We would have won 8+ games with Stafford this season.
I’m not defending Jones here, he wasn’t very good to say the least. But this team has 8+ wins if Engram could hold on to the damn ball. He was directly respond for 2-3 losses because of his untimely mishaps
You may be right. But the reason Engram's crucial plays hurt so much is that the offense couldn't generate points in large part due to poor quarterback play. With competent quarterbacking a couple drops are less likely to be game changers.
Have to improve at QB. Be it through Jones getting better or some other route. You can't survive by hoping to hold the opposition under 20 points.
I’m not disagreeing with you but I think you’re underselling just how backbreaking some of Engrams miscues were. It’s hard to score points when your primary target consistently drops the ball and kills drives or better yet, plays tip drill and gives it right to the defender.
I also hold Garrett more responsible than I do Jones. Not that Jones is blameless but Garrett’s offense is freaking archaic. No pre snap motion, route trees that provide zero chance for YAC, not enough explosive opportunities downfield, etc. I know many disagree, but Garrett completely failed at setting this offense up for success. I sure hope he does a shit ton of self scouting and makes some major adjustments. But I’m not hopeful...
I'd rather see whether Jones is the guy for one more year than settle for a "competent placeholder" in Stafford who is almost finished as an NFL QB. 2 years isn't enough to fully determine whether a QB is the answer or not. That 3rd year is the dealbreaker, and we are obligated to give Jones at least that. I'm in the camp where we should let Jones go or draft a QB after 2021 if he isn't the guy.
As for the mediocrity that is Matt Stafford. Stafford has won 9 or more games only 4 times as an NFL QB in 12 seasons and for most of that time he's had a lot more to throw to in Detroit (Megatron, etc). than he would have had this season. Stafford with Sterling Shepard as a #1 receiver would also be pretty helpless, and with no mobility he would have been a sitting duck behind our OL. Megatron is the reason for most of Stafford's stats in the first part of his career. Since Calvin Johnson retired, Stafford hasn't won more than 9 games in a season
I’d support the move, especially if we swing Jones for a decent pick to offset some of Staffords cost.
I’d support the move, especially if we swing Jones for a decent pick to offset some of Staffords cost.
Detroit is letting him go because they won't be competitive until Stafford is too old or physically beat up to be their QB answer. Stafford fits in a place like IND or SF where their championship window is now and they need a QB to put around a talented team. Even Washington is a better fit because they have a top pass rush and need a placeholder QB for a year or two. The Giants aren't in that win now position and the best answer at QB is just play it out with Jones one more year and see what he shows us.
I don't understand this mentality. To whom are the Giants obligated?
The Giants can't try to improve at QB until after Jones's 3rd year? Where is that written?
Plus the trade cost. And I would rather evaluate Jones while continuing to build the team surrounding.
Weird, you advocate jettisoning high priced QBs who have won Super Bowls in favor of low priced rookies who can make plays with their feet but have not played a snap of NFL football....until there is a 32 year old QB coming off injury who carries a 20+ mill per year number and we owe QB 1 his vontract anyways. This plan, comes with the cost of losing our most disruptive D Lineman and limits our flexibility in FA to pay for a questionmark.
Its gotten to the point you now contradict yourself with your negative rhetoric. You make NO sense. People stick up for you but you dont even make sense any more. You post a few sets of numbers, and then when someone like ryanmkeane did here, posts numbers that kind of beat yours up, you reboot and start the same shit again.
I just cant figure it out....I cant believe someone would be so narcisstic, but this whole schtick sounds so contrived and lame.
We're at best a 1st round wild card exit with Stafford and most likely still miss the playoffs as he did with Detroit all these years. This roster still needs a lot of help and it makes no sense to get the veteran QB when you're not currently set up to win it. The best move for now and later is give Jones one more year and either cast your lot with Jones if he drastically improves or move on and draft another QB if he doesn't play well in year 3.
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That 3rd year is the dealbreaker, and we are obligated to give Jones at least that.
I don't understand this mentality. To whom are the Giants obligated?
The Giants can't try to improve at QB until after Jones's 3rd year? Where is that written?
Then you draft another QB if you think that way. You don't pick up a veteran QB to waste his and our time going 8-8, maybe 9-7 with a 1st round wild card exit if everything breaks right
I don’t see any of them as being realistic options, however.
I don’t see any of them as being realistic options, however.
Drafting a QB at 11 or getting in the Watson sweepstakes make far more sense than picking up a QB in Stafford who is a physically beat up guy in his 30s and who at most will get you from bad to mediocre. I can support moving on from Jones by either drafting a QB if there's one we really like or getting Watson because both of those opportunities can net us a franchise QB for the long term. I can't support denying Jones the opportunity of a year 3 with Stafford though.
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but I would upgrade at QB now if it was a legit option. I see too much risk with Stafford based on what it would likely take to get him, so that leaves getting in on the Watson sweepstakes or draft a QB that falls at 11. Or hey, maybe Aaron Rodgers wants out!?
I don’t see any of them as being realistic options, however.
Drafting a QB at 11 or getting in the Watson sweepstakes make far more sense than picking up a QB in Stafford who is a physically beat up guy in his 30s and who at most will get you from bad to mediocre. I can support moving on from Jones by either drafting a QB if there's one we really like or getting Watson because both of those opportunities can net us a franchise QB for the long term. I can't support denying Jones the opportunity of a year 3 with Stafford though.
"Yea but at least we'll win more games than with Jones."
-Go Terps/bw in DC/Producer/LBH15 (now back to JimmyGoogs)/allstarjim et al
Me personally, I think Stafford peaked early on and then became a gun slinger type and never really became good enough to overcome his mistakes and bad teams he was on. That’s not his fault, it’s just what he was. He was a very solid QB who had 1 awesome peak but then ultimately never really did much. Everyone will be expecting him to be some amazing QB on another team, he’ll be the same guy he’s been for the past 3-4 years.
i don't feel like going through every year but there are more than a few years where he is top-10 (or higher) in many key stats.
I'd honestly rather give Jones another year and continue to build the rest of the team.
Stafford will be 33 with some injury concerns........
Yeah....right now? no shit. Jones has played 2 NFL seasons dude.
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he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
Yeah....right now? no shit. Jones has played 2 NFL seasons dude.
The division is weak, and we've got a good head coach and defense. So why not take an opportunity to improve at the most important position? Are we trying to improve or not?
This is what Im talking about....you dont post any substance! It is absolutely disputable based on age, athletic ability, they both have very similar numbers in roughly the same number of games played the last two years, one is 23 the other is 32, one cost more than 20 million, the other costs under 10 million...
Ypu havent brpught up a salient argument yet. Maybe stick to soccer boards?
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In comment 15133295 Go Terps said:
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he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
Yeah....right now? no shit. Jones has played 2 NFL seasons dude.
The division is weak, and we've got a good head coach and defense. So why not take an opportunity to improve at the most important position? Are we trying to improve or not?
Pay attention, your solution involves weakening the defense considerably by letting Williams (forget even considering DT) walk and then whrn teams run all over us and QBs have all the time in the world they need to find a guy, I guess the 32 year old Stafford starts launching missiles to our tiny and slow receivers because we are stuck paying 20 mill per for a corpse.
Just the worst.
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he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
This is what Im talking about....you dont post any substance! It is absolutely disputable based on age, athletic ability, they both have very similar numbers in roughly the same number of games played the last two years, one is 23 the other is 32, one cost more than 20 million, the other costs under 10 million...
Ypu havent brpught up a salient argument yet. Maybe stick to soccer boards?
This is what qualifies as "very similar numbers"?
Stafford:
6583 yards passing / 45 passing TDs / 15 INTs / 8.04 yds/att / 178 yards rushing / 0 rushing TDs / 7 fumbles / 5 game-winning drives
Jones:
5970 yards passing / 35 passing TDs / 22 INTs / 6.58 yds/att / 702 yards rushing / 3 rushing TDs / 29 fumbles / 2 game-winning drives
There's honestly nothing similar about their stats in any category. There are some areas where Jones is better, primarily as a runner (where he's much better), and some where Jones is worse (pretty much every passing stat, where Jones is significantly worse). They're not similar in any way.
So that leaves me curious as to what exactly qualifies as a salient argument in your opinion? It sure isn't the ridiculous assertion you just tried to pass off as fact.
He’s gone 4K+ every year he’s been healthy. He’s got an outside shot to hit 50K/300TDs next year — which is like a club of a dozen QBs all time.
Lots to knock on him, but the stats are pretty good.
I don’t agree with that as I’ve said you can be in the 28-33 range and be a franchise QB. I think Stafford was a good franchise QB. He just never truly lived up to the hype. He was good though. Also have to consider the Lions are just a truly historically bad franchise. Tough spot for him.
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In comment 15133295 Go Terps said:
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he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
This is what Im talking about....you dont post any substance! It is absolutely disputable based on age, athletic ability, they both have very similar numbers in roughly the same number of games played the last two years, one is 23 the other is 32, one cost more than 20 million, the other costs under 10 million...
Ypu havent brpught up a salient argument yet. Maybe stick to soccer boards?
This is what qualifies as "very similar numbers"?
Stafford:
6583 yards passing / 45 passing TDs / 15 INTs / 8.04 yds/att / 178 yards rushing / 0 rushing TDs / 7 fumbles / 5 game-winning drives
Jones:
5970 yards passing / 35 passing TDs / 22 INTs / 6.58 yds/att / 702 yards rushing / 3 rushing TDs / 29 fumbles / 2 game-winning drives
There's honestly nothing similar about their stats in any category. There are some areas where Jones is better, primarily as a runner (where he's much better), and some where Jones is worse (pretty much every passing stat, where Jones is significantly worse). They're not similar in any way.
So that leaves me curious as to what exactly qualifies as a salient argument in your opinion? It sure isn't the ridiculous assertion you just tried to pass off as fact.
Great form by you. And yes I am ready for that. So rough calculations are that Stafford brings 600 more passing yards 10 more passing TDs with a much better supporting cast. Jones brings 500 more rushing yards and 3 TD. So I think its fair to mark the discrepancy at +100 total yards and +7 TDs for Stafford, a 10 year vet, vs Jones who had 22 INTs in his first 27 games compared to Stafford with 21...in 13 games to start his career.
My whole point its that you and others are jumping the gun on Jones....big time. He has made plays. His teammates have let him down, a lot in big time situations. But the idea of trading for a 32 year old Matt Stafford when you have a similar QB on your roster already.
My only gripe with Jones has been the fumbling. He has seemed to improve on that. He is guaranteed 2 more years. He is not Manziel, Kizer, Rosen, Mirer, Haskins, et al bad.
Btw, your post is what I call a salient argument. Im just saying, aside from the fumbles, Jones was right there with Stafford as a 2nd year guy playing behind a brand new line, an uncertain set of receivers and comparing him to an 11 year vet, I would not want him to replace Jones.
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I posted that because in many ways I agree with Terps' view on Jones. I am not as strident in that opinion, but I'm tired of having any opinion I post dismissed as being a "negative nelly" or just trying to be a dick.m It is not any kind of outlier opinion to doubt Jones is a franchise QB. Anywhere outside a Giants fan discussion it is actually a pretty widely held opinion.
It would be nice if anyone expressing an opinion on this board could be in some camp other than "Terps" or "ryanmkeane." There is a shit ton of space on that spectrum between those two extremes.
I think there are more than a few not in those camps. To me, any camp saying that Jones is what he is at this point whether good or bad with certainty stand in the way of honest conversation. I have no problem with fans having doubt about Jones, there is good reason from a fan pov to have doubt. Jones also showed in his rookie year why it isn't unreasonable to have hope.
Fans saying that Jones will never get better, or will always have the same fundamental issues seem to hold their opinion high enough to speak in absolutes. That also cuts both ways, if fans on here are talking down to fans that doubt and or speaking with authority that Jones is a franchise qb and anyone that can't see it are full of it just as the other side I spoke about above. Are they deliberately full of it, or just not know any better?
This is a decent point crick....but I almost want to challenge you to find a majority of football threads where nobody makes a gratuitous and ambiguous Jones crack. Its almost like people who get to drunk at a karaoke, know they cant sing and then put on a Queen song.
He did it at Georgia and he did in Detroit.
He's 74-90-1 in 12 seasons as an NFL QB. He has 3 playoff appearances in those seasons - all of them loses.
He's a talented loser.
He did it at Georgia and he did in Detroit.
He's 74-90-1 in 12 seasons as an NFL QB. He has 3 playoff appearances in those seasons - all of them loses.
He's a talented loser.
I kinda feel the same way.
How in the world is that the type of guy we should pursue?
If it weren't for a few very vocal nitwits who detest Jones with every fiber of their being, the notion of trying to obtain stafford would be cause for laughing someone right out of the room.
How in the world is that the type of guy we should pursue?
If it weren't for a few very vocal nitwits who detest Jones with every fiber of their being, the notion of trying to obtain stafford would be cause for laughing someone right out of the room.
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Matt Stafford is a classic under-achiever.
He did it at Georgia and he did in Detroit.
He's 74-90-1 in 12 seasons as an NFL QB. He has 3 playoff appearances in those seasons - all of them loses.
He's a talented loser.
I kinda feel the same way.
As do I
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In comment 15132316 Mike from Ohio said:
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I posted that because in many ways I agree with Terps' view on Jones. I am not as strident in that opinion, but I'm tired of having any opinion I post dismissed as being a "negative nelly" or just trying to be a dick.m It is not any kind of outlier opinion to doubt Jones is a franchise QB. Anywhere outside a Giants fan discussion it is actually a pretty widely held opinion.
It would be nice if anyone expressing an opinion on this board could be in some camp other than "Terps" or "ryanmkeane." There is a shit ton of space on that spectrum between those two extremes.
I think there are more than a few not in those camps. To me, any camp saying that Jones is what he is at this point whether good or bad with certainty stand in the way of honest conversation. I have no problem with fans having doubt about Jones, there is good reason from a fan pov to have doubt. Jones also showed in his rookie year why it isn't unreasonable to have hope.
Fans saying that Jones will never get better, or will always have the same fundamental issues seem to hold their opinion high enough to speak in absolutes. That also cuts both ways, if fans on here are talking down to fans that doubt and or speaking with authority that Jones is a franchise qb and anyone that can't see it are full of it just as the other side I spoke about above. Are they deliberately full of it, or just not know any better?
This is a decent point crick....but I almost want to challenge you to find a majority of football threads where nobody makes a gratuitous and ambiguous Jones crack. Its almost like people who get to drunk at a karaoke, know they cant sing and then put on a Queen song.
Hi Chopper. I see your point. Even though I was attempting to be balanced about both sides of the aisle, I understand that the ailes themselves are probably not balanced. My intention is to communicate that there are two sides to help soften the communication.
He's also probably a 95 in Madden.
There were long stretches of Eli's career where you could use literally the exact same description for him.
That Stafford is a right time/right place spark of magic away from his legacy being completely different. In terms of true QB talent, Stafford has been top-5 since he entered the league. Talent isn't everything, or else Jeff George would be in the conversation for GOAT, but Stafford is being extremely underrated here.
His career has been sabotaged by a dysfunctional organization. Anyone who wants to use his shortcomings as a comparison to Jones should realize that doing so basically implies that our organization is on par with the Lions.
I don't think I'd part with a first rounder either, especially a top ten-ish one.
However, I would seriously consider a second. Sure, Stafford is 32, but 32 in today's game and rules is like being 28. And his salary isn't that punitive, particularly in '22.
So with him, it's a simple question - would Stafford make the Giants better for a second? I don't know how the answer isn't yes.
I'm not saying this is what I would do (I'd be deeper into the Watson sweepstakes), but it's an intriguing idea. Because right now, the NFCE is right there for the taking with the right parts.
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Stafford has played 12 seasons...well i guess 11 full seasons. Could he go to a team like the Colts or 49ers and they make a SB run? Sure, he could. But...IMO he's not worth giving up a 1st round pick for *at the current time*...he's on the back 9, and getting closer to 18.
I don't think I'd part with a first rounder either, especially a top ten-ish one.
However, I would seriously consider a second. Sure, Stafford is 32, but 32 in today's game and rules is like being 28. And his salary isn't that punitive, particularly in '22.
So with him, it's a simple question - would Stafford make the Giants better for a second? I don't know how the answer isn't yes.
I'm not saying this is what I would do (I'd be deeper into the Watson sweepstakes), but it's an intriguing idea. Because right now, the NFCE is right there for the taking with the right parts.
Is that really a big prize? People here talked about how how silly it would be to call ourselves NFC champs this year because it was a function of general suckitude. HOw would that be different next year, as opposed to actually trying to build something sustainable (which Detroit already decided couldn't be done with an aging QB)?.
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In comment 15133961 ryanmkeane said:
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Stafford has played 12 seasons...well i guess 11 full seasons. Could he go to a team like the Colts or 49ers and they make a SB run? Sure, he could. But...IMO he's not worth giving up a 1st round pick for *at the current time*...he's on the back 9, and getting closer to 18.
I don't think I'd part with a first rounder either, especially a top ten-ish one.
However, I would seriously consider a second. Sure, Stafford is 32, but 32 in today's game and rules is like being 28. And his salary isn't that punitive, particularly in '22.
So with him, it's a simple question - would Stafford make the Giants better for a second? I don't know how the answer isn't yes.
I'm not saying this is what I would do (I'd be deeper into the Watson sweepstakes), but it's an intriguing idea. Because right now, the NFCE is right there for the taking with the right parts.
Is that really a big prize? People here talked about how how silly it would be to call ourselves NFC champs this year because it was a function of general suckitude. HOw would that be different next year, as opposed to actually trying to build something sustainable (which Detroit already decided couldn't be done with an aging QB)?.
Building around a quarterback that needs as much help as Jones does isn't sustainable.
He has one of the top WR's with him for several years and was able to manage zero playoff wins.
Meanwhile, the Giants likely don't have a top 25 WR on the field and the pitchfork monkeys act like Jones is one of the worst QB's to ever take the field.
But of course, we're regaled about his stat line being fantastic.....
Is that really a big prize? People here talked about how how silly it would be to call ourselves NFC champs this year because it was a function of general suckitude. HOw would that be different next year, as opposed to actually trying to build something sustainable (which Detroit already decided couldn't be done with an aging QB)?.
The goal every year should be to win the division. So I'm looking ahead now.
I'm pretty sure I know who Stafford is - a near pro bowl level player who played for a horrible organization and demonstrated he could be a force multiplier.
And I still don't know what we have in Jones. At best, he's probably a game manager that will require a lot of investments to try to optimize his abilities.
So I could see adding Stafford a very good solution for 3-4 years. That's a long time in the NFL.
Exactly what does a force multiplier do?
with one of the top WR's by his side, the force multiplier had his team score in the top 10 of points 2 times. He was a force multiplier to zero playoff wins.
And the season the defense gave up the 3rd amount of points and the 2nd amount of years, the force multiplier led the offense to the 22nd most points!!
Is the definition of "force multiplier" the bullshit connotation when you can't tangibly point to actual impact a player has??
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Is that really a big prize? People here talked about how how silly it would be to call ourselves NFC champs this year because it was a function of general suckitude. HOw would that be different next year, as opposed to actually trying to build something sustainable (which Detroit already decided couldn't be done with an aging QB)?.
The goal every year should be to win the division. So I'm looking ahead now.
I'm pretty sure I know who Stafford is - a near pro bowl level player who played for a horrible organization and demonstrated he could be a force multiplier.
And I still don't know what we have in Jones. At best, he's probably a game manager that will require a lot of investments to try to optimize his abilities.
So I could see adding Stafford a very good solution for 3-4 years. That's a long time in the NFL.
I'm usually right there with you bw...but I think you're wrong on this one.
I couldn't think of a worse QB to bring in where you trying to break a franchise that has grown accustom to losing.
I'd rather forge ahead with DJ or make a move to get a QB in this draft that looks like they might have the goods.
And, as you know, I'm not a huge DJ supporter.
Stafford just seems like a step backward for a team that is young and seemingly (hopefully) getting better.
He has one of the top WR's with him for several years and was able to manage zero playoff wins.
Stafford is 0-3 in the playoffs.
Peyton Manning was 0-3 in his first three playoff appearances. Did you see the offensive talent he had?
One player has been playing in NFL Hell in Detroit. And the other was playing for Bill Polian in Indy.
You don't lead the league in GW drives 3X in your career without some serious ability.
Force multiplier my ass.
Force multiplier my ass.
But what if the force = 0?
Force multiplier my ass.
I'm comparing franchises and circumstances. Manning played for a HoF GM and Stafford has played for Martin Mayhew and Bob Quinn.
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so comparing Jones to Stafford is being laughed at, but comparing Stafford to Peyton Manning is fine??
Force multiplier my ass.
But what if the force = 0?
Can I have the equation for force multipier?
FM = x/mc*rc/BS? Something like that?
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so comparing Jones to Stafford is being laughed at, but comparing Stafford to Peyton Manning is fine??
Force multiplier my ass.
I'm comparing franchises and circumstances. Manning played for a HoF GM and Stafford has played for Martin Mayhew and Bob Quinn.
Wouldn't the better comparison be not the QB's but the team around them? We are less than Detroit and Stafford had no success for Detroit. Trading for Stafford changes the window because of his advanced age while also burning resources that could be used to better the surrounding team. And, I still say that nobody, including you and GT really know what Jones is yet.
I hear you on Stafford concerns. It's not my lead solution in this exercise. But I am bewildered how quite a few don't see the talented player he is compared Jones. Is it even close?
I hear you on Stafford concerns. It's not my lead solution in this exercise. But I am bewildered how quite a few don't see the talented player he is compared Jones. Is it even close?
Still waiting on my force multiplier equation, please.
that said, it is interesting that this off season includes a more than a few high profile, productive QBs looking for new homes (Watson, Stafford, Rodgers, Wentz, etc)... and I will only say that IF the Giants coaching staff felt this team would be better served with one of these guys at the helm, I hope our old fashioned way of doing business wouldn't stand in the way of making a move to one of these guys that Judge et al want to lead the team.
I hear you on Stafford concerns. It's not my lead solution in this exercise. But I am bewildered how quite a few don't see the talented player he is compared Jones. Is it even close?
Get us some weapons on outside and Jones speed will be a massive weapon. Teams won't be able to double or play 2 high because you need to dedicate a spy. If you don't Jones will torch you on ground. It's really underrated part of his game and he should be coached to use it and recognize it. Having a QB as fast as he is is devastating when you get the defense to turn their back, which will happen often the way the line run blocks now and having Saquon back. Teams will absolutely need to play a lot of man against us and we need some players that can take advantage of it.
It's called context. These conversations need it, badly.
I offer no strong opinion about that - in fact I am on the fence b/c I still hold out hope for DJ... but it is not a ridiculous premise to say that the Giants would better off for the next 3-4 years with Stafford as QB over DJ...
though I put more stock in Judge's opinion on that than I do BBI... : )
I offer no strong opinion about that - in fact I am on the fence b/c I still hold out hope for DJ... but it is not a ridiculous premise to say that the Giants would better off for the next 3-4 years with Stafford as QB over DJ...
though I put more stock in Judge's opinion on that than I do BBI... : )
Would hope DJ shows himself in year 3 as well.
Probably more likely that Stafford would be an upgrade, but as ryan suggests if the Lions did an upgrade at the beginning of Stafford's early career then he never turns into the one of the better QBs in the league in the end. Right?
This is all pie-in-sky thinking though as Judge and Giants are fully behind Jones for year 3.
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I think I know what Jones isn't - an elite talent capable of carrying a team. So now the gamble is if Jones can be a high end game manager with the right infrastructure to produce points and wins. I'm very unsure of that part right now.
I hear you on Stafford concerns. It's not my lead solution in this exercise. But I am bewildered how quite a few don't see the talented player he is compared Jones. Is it even close?
Get us some weapons on outside and Jones speed will be a massive weapon. Teams won't be able to double or play 2 high because you need to dedicate a spy. If you don't Jones will torch you on ground. It's really underrated part of his game and he should be coached to use it and recognize it. Having a QB as fast as he is is devastating when you get the defense to turn their back, which will happen often the way the line run blocks now and having Saquon back. Teams will absolutely need to play a lot of man against us and we need some players that can take advantage of it.
Massive weapon? That a big proclamation.
Jones mobility is really a one-way - straight line speed with pretty good turn of foot getting to the edge. Which is a plus to a degree. But he isn't a shifty, elusive, quick QB player like any of the usual suspects. And he's a big target to get hit. So there is a a high risk variable for a guy who has shown some pattern of getting injured.
I like some designed runs, but I need to see so much more from the pocket (and elsewhere) before I can even entertain "massive weapon" territory.
Mahomes is a massive weapon.
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In comment 15134129 bw in dc said:
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I think I know what Jones isn't - an elite talent capable of carrying a team. So now the gamble is if Jones can be a high end game manager with the right infrastructure to produce points and wins. I'm very unsure of that part right now.
I hear you on Stafford concerns. It's not my lead solution in this exercise. But I am bewildered how quite a few don't see the talented player he is compared Jones. Is it even close?
Get us some weapons on outside and Jones speed will be a massive weapon. Teams won't be able to double or play 2 high because you need to dedicate a spy. If you don't Jones will torch you on ground. It's really underrated part of his game and he should be coached to use it and recognize it. Having a QB as fast as he is is devastating when you get the defense to turn their back, which will happen often the way the line run blocks now and having Saquon back. Teams will absolutely need to play a lot of man against us and we need some players that can take advantage of it.
Massive weapon? That a big proclamation.
Jones mobility is really a one-way - straight line speed with pretty good turn of foot getting to the edge. Which is a plus to a degree. But he isn't a shifty, elusive, quick QB player like any of the usual suspects. And he's a big target to get hit. So there is a a high risk variable for a guy who has shown some pattern of getting injured.
I like some designed runs, but I need to see so much more from the pocket (and elsewhere) before I can even entertain "massive weapon" territory.
Mahomes is a massive weapon.
Would you call Jones' running ability a force multiplier?
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I think I know what Jones isn't - an elite talent capable of carrying a team. So now the gamble is if Jones can be a high end game manager with the right infrastructure to produce points and wins. I'm very unsure of that part right now.
I hear you on Stafford concerns. It's not my lead solution in this exercise. But I am bewildered how quite a few don't see the talented player he is compared Jones. Is it even close?
Still waiting on my force multiplier equation, please.
Sure. More points produced by the QB = more winning opportunities.
Wow, that was really creative. Touche.
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In comment 15134129 bw in dc said:
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I think I know what Jones isn't - an elite talent capable of carrying a team. So now the gamble is if Jones can be a high end game manager with the right infrastructure to produce points and wins. I'm very unsure of that part right now.
I hear you on Stafford concerns. It's not my lead solution in this exercise. But I am bewildered how quite a few don't see the talented player he is compared Jones. Is it even close?
Get us some weapons on outside and Jones speed will be a massive weapon. Teams won't be able to double or play 2 high because you need to dedicate a spy. If you don't Jones will torch you on ground. It's really underrated part of his game and he should be coached to use it and recognize it. Having a QB as fast as he is is devastating when you get the defense to turn their back, which will happen often the way the line run blocks now and having Saquon back. Teams will absolutely need to play a lot of man against us and we need some players that can take advantage of it.
Massive weapon? That a big proclamation.
Jones mobility is really a one-way - straight line speed with pretty good turn of foot getting to the edge. Which is a plus to a degree. But he isn't a shifty, elusive, quick QB player like any of the usual suspects. And he's a big target to get hit. So there is a a high risk variable for a guy who has shown some pattern of getting injured.
I like some designed runs, but I need to see so much more from the pocket (and elsewhere) before I can even entertain "massive weapon" territory.
Mahomes is a massive weapon.
Massive? Devastating? I feel like I heard these same exact arguments when Barkley was drafted. This isn't Madden.
Jones is a nice runner. It definitely helps. But he's not Lamar, elusive, or even Mahomes, able to sling it on the run. Stop projecting what you think he'll be one day, and start looking at what he is.
But of course, we're regaled about his stat line being fantastic.....
I decided to revisit this now that I have time. Stafford has been the starter since 2011, and missed half of 2019 with an injury, so let's throw that year out. In essence, therefore, Stafford has been the FT starter for 9 years.
So FMiC focuses on the down years. However, the offense under Stafford did finish 4th, 7th, 13th, and 17th. So basically in half of his years as the starter, the Lions finished in the top half of the league in PPG, and twice in the top ten.
In the one year where they finished 20th, they still went 11-5 despite Megatron missing four games with an ankle injury.
And in the year where they finished 7th, in 2017, Megatron was retired and the receiving corp was Golden Tate and Marvin Jones.
Context is always interesting...
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Since Stafford has been there, the Lions have ranked 20th or lower in points scored 6 times.
But of course, we're regaled about his stat line being fantastic.....
I decided to revisit this now that I have time. Stafford has been the starter since 2011, and missed half of 2019 with an injury, so let's throw that year out. In essence, therefore, Stafford has been the FT starter for 9 years.
So FMiC focuses on the down years. However, the offense under Stafford did finish 4th, 7th, 13th, and 17th. So basically in half of his years as the starter, the Lions finished in the top half of the league in PPG, and twice in the top ten.
In the one year where they finished 20th, they still went 11-5 despite Megatron missing four games with an ankle injury.
And in the year where they finished 7th, in 2017, Megatron was retired and the receiving corp was Golden Tate and Marvin Jones.
Context is always interesting...
You could also frame that as: two top 10 offenses, two middle of the pack, and then four bottom half offenses. That wasn't a good stat for your point.
That means in more than half of his seasons, he had a bottom half offense (5/9). Although, two times, he had top ten offenses (2/9). Again though, not a great illustration of your point.
And the season the defense gave up the 3rd amount of points and the 2nd amount of years, the force multiplier led the offense to the 22nd most points!!
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Since Stafford has been there, the Lions have ranked 20th or lower in points scored 6 times.
But of course, we're regaled about his stat line being fantastic.....
I decided to revisit this now that I have time. Stafford has been the starter since 2011, and missed half of 2019 with an injury, so let's throw that year out. In essence, therefore, Stafford has been the FT starter for 9 years.
So FMiC focuses on the down years. However, the offense under Stafford did finish 4th, 7th, 13th, and 17th. So basically in half of his years as the starter, the Lions finished in the top half of the league in PPG, and twice in the top ten.
In the one year where they finished 20th, they still went 11-5 despite Megatron missing four games with an ankle injury.
And in the year where they finished 7th, in 2017, Megatron was retired and the receiving corp was Golden Tate and Marvin Jones.
Context is always interesting...
Bw, it seems context is irrelevant with the Giants. Since Jones was the 6th pick he must overcome, and not be limited by circumstances. It seems when fans list reasonable factors as to why Jones has struggled the "6th overall pick" card gets played.
That means in more than half of his seasons, he had a bottom half offense (5/9). Although, two times, he had top ten offenses (2/9). Again though, not a great illustration of your point.
I said "in basically half of his years"...So rounding is implied. But fine. You are technically correct.
The underlying point still stands. Detroit did have years when their offensive production was good t- very good with Stafford in the saddle.
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4 isn't half of 9.
That means in more than half of his seasons, he had a bottom half offense (5/9). Although, two times, he had top ten offenses (2/9). Again though, not a great illustration of your point.
I said "in basically half of his years"...So rounding is implied. But fine. You are technically correct.
The underlying point still stands. Detroit did have years when their offensive production was good t- very good with Stafford in the saddle.
Wait a minute. Is that really the "underlying point"??
Isn't the point with Jones that he was the 6th pick and he has to elevate the team around him and be a "force multiplier"?? Stafford was the #1 overall pick!!
But hey, he had years where the offense was good to very good with him there.
I wish you guys would at least be consistent.
Go for it.
Go for it.
Wow. This post is pretty weird. With that said, when this goes down, what do you suppose the Porn Hub title will be?
Charlottes Web?
FatMan Goes to DC?
Asking for a friend.
Go for it.
I don't even remember commenting on this thread and this is the first thing I see LOL
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4 isn't half of 9.
That means in more than half of his seasons, he had a bottom half offense (5/9). Although, two times, he had top ten offenses (2/9). Again though, not a great illustration of your point.
I said "in basically half of his years"...So rounding is implied. But fine. You are technically correct.
The underlying point still stands. Detroit did have years when their offensive production was good t- very good with Stafford in the saddle.
Underlying point? Top half 3 out of 9 years is now "basically half"? Weird.
Funny, but it really isn't if you watch the guy throw. He's very good at ball placement. MAybe even great. What Jones needs to work on is protecting the ball and decision making/reading the defense.
Too bad he was only allowed 20 games to master his craft. Maybe the next QB will be great right away. If not, cut him too.
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I think some you need to call each other and have wild monkey sex. You are acting like young boys that do not know how to talk to girls yet, so you needle each other every chance you get. It looks like dislike, but you really want to kiss them.
Go for it.
Wow. This post is pretty weird. With that said, when this goes down, what do you suppose the Porn Hub title will be?
Charlottes Web?
FatMan Goes to DC?
Asking for a friend.
Maybe old married couples would be a better example. We have good discussions then the old baggage rears its ugly head and poof ad hominem nonsense ensues.
Rodgers was just very good on McAfee's show (AR's weekly Tuesday appearance). Guy is a breath of fresh air with his candor, whether you agree or disagree with his opinions.
I would love to see Rodgers with Reich or BB. Indy seems much closer to really competing, however, than the Pats, who have a lot of leaks in their dam...
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the Pats being the other contender. Personally I'd love to see either. His stats will take a big hit going to Pats, but he'll win. Hope he gets a superbowl, so this nonsense about him gets put to rest and the whole QB is the whole team notion. I thought when Peyton's corpse won the SB it would, but he still had the name recognition and past SB success so people overlooked he was one of the worst QBs in the league that year.
Rodgers was just very good on McAfee's show (AR's weekly Tuesday appearance). Guy is a breath of fresh air with his candor, whether you agree or disagree with his opinions.
I would love to see Rodgers with Reich or BB. Indy seems much closer to really competing, however, than the Pats, who have a lot of leaks in their dam...
I thought I was the only one that watched that. Great show and a unique insight into the NFL. I always thought Rodgers got an unfair shake as far as what the media portrays him to be. Those interviews confirmed it for me. He's clearly a very introspective guy and, at this point, has mastered the line between candor and trying not to cross lines.
Today was very interesting to get a peak behind the curtain on how he feels about the Love pick. Obviously your franchise isn't commiting to him long term and he knows any offseason now he could have played his last game in a Packers uniform without knowing it. I mean he sounded like he wouldn't be shocked if they traded him this offseason.
And I like Rodgers disdain for many in the conventional media.
He was very insightful today how he used video from 2010 to improve his mechanics and fix this subtle hitch he noticed...
"We can't afford to pay an aging QB 20 million dollars. It will eat up our cap and we won't be able to get any talent. It will hamstring our cap..."