if everyone is making the argument that Stafford is a franchise QB, why hasn’t he “elevated his teammates” and won some playoff games? Why doesn’t he have amazing stats? These are things you are asking Jones to do right? In year 3 right?
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
Stafford has all the stats, that’s a weird thing to bring up.
Stafford had a top 30 all time season as a QB in his 3rd season and won 10 games. If Jones goes 5K and 41/16 next year — literally every poster on this site will be praising him.
We've talked before about the importance of timing along with resource allocation. Stafford's got two years left on his deal - good amount of time for them to figure out the future at the position while still remaining competitive now.
If we're equating dollars to wins, it's a better use of $20M than it would be to pay Williams, and certainly better than paying a free agent WR.
We would have won 8+ games with Stafford this season.
I’m not defending Jones here, he wasn’t very good to say the least. But this team has 8+ wins if Engram could hold on to the damn ball. He was directly respond for 2-3 losses because of his untimely mishaps
You may be right. But the reason Engram's crucial plays hurt so much is that the offense couldn't generate points in large part due to poor quarterback play. With competent quarterbacking a couple drops are less likely to be game changers.
Have to improve at QB. Be it through Jones getting better or some other route. You can't survive by hoping to hold the opposition under 20 points.
I’m not disagreeing with you but I think you’re underselling just how backbreaking some of Engrams miscues were. It’s hard to score points when your primary target consistently drops the ball and kills drives or better yet, plays tip drill and gives it right to the defender.
I also hold Garrett more responsible than I do Jones. Not that Jones is blameless but Garrett’s offense is freaking archaic. No pre snap motion, route trees that provide zero chance for YAC, not enough explosive opportunities downfield, etc. I know many disagree, but Garrett completely failed at setting this offense up for success. I sure hope he does a shit ton of self scouting and makes some major adjustments. But I’m not hopeful...
He would be a more than competent placeholder whole we look for the long term answer. The cost isn't exorbitant - were talking about spending the same on a 3-4 DE, and possibly also a WR. Way more bang for the buck with Stafford.
I'd rather see whether Jones is the guy for one more year than settle for a "competent placeholder" in Stafford who is almost finished as an NFL QB. 2 years isn't enough to fully determine whether a QB is the answer or not. That 3rd year is the dealbreaker, and we are obligated to give Jones at least that. I'm in the camp where we should let Jones go or draft a QB after 2021 if he isn't the guy.
As for the mediocrity that is Matt Stafford. Stafford has won 9 or more games only 4 times as an NFL QB in 12 seasons and for most of that time he's had a lot more to throw to in Detroit (Megatron, etc). than he would have had this season. Stafford with Sterling Shepard as a #1 receiver would also be pretty helpless, and with no mobility he would have been a sitting duck behind our OL. Megatron is the reason for most of Stafford's stats in the first part of his career. Since Calvin Johnson retired, Stafford hasn't won more than 9 games in a season
unless you think he’s just going to be injury plagued which is a fair opinion to have. But when he’s on that field he’s still a borderline top 10 QB and we’d be a better team with him.
I’d support the move, especially if we swing Jones for a decent pick to offset some of Staffords cost.
unless you think he’s just going to be injury plagued which is a fair opinion to have. But when he’s on that field he’s still a borderline top 10 QB and we’d be a better team with him.
I’d support the move, especially if we swing Jones for a decent pick to offset some of Staffords cost.
Detroit is letting him go because they won't be competitive until Stafford is too old or physically beat up to be their QB answer. Stafford fits in a place like IND or SF where their championship window is now and they need a QB to put around a talented team. Even Washington is a better fit because they have a top pass rush and need a placeholder QB for a year or two. The Giants aren't in that win now position and the best answer at QB is just play it out with Jones one more year and see what he shows us.
maybe for Stafford that’s the ideal fit but we are a playoff team with him, and if our defense adds a pass rusher, I’d argue we’d be a pretty dangerous team at that. Then add on Barkley and it ends up being a pretty nice place to walk into, not to mention I think he’d be perfect for NY.
He would be a more than competent placeholder whole we look for the long term answer. The cost isn't exorbitant - were talking about spending the same on a 3-4 DE, and possibly also a WR. Way more bang for the buck with Stafford.
Plus the trade cost. And I would rather evaluate Jones while continuing to build the team surrounding.
Weird, you advocate jettisoning high priced QBs who have won Super Bowls in favor of low priced rookies who can make plays with their feet but have not played a snap of NFL football....until there is a 32 year old QB coming off injury who carries a 20+ mill per year number and we owe QB 1 his vontract anyways. This plan, comes with the cost of losing our most disruptive D Lineman and limits our flexibility in FA to pay for a questionmark.
Its gotten to the point you now contradict yourself with your negative rhetoric. You make NO sense. People stick up for you but you dont even make sense any more. You post a few sets of numbers, and then when someone like ryanmkeane did here, posts numbers that kind of beat yours up, you reboot and start the same shit again.
I just cant figure it out....I cant believe someone would be so narcisstic, but this whole schtick sounds so contrived and lame.
maybe for Stafford that’s the ideal fit but we are a playoff team with him, and if our defense adds a pass rusher, I’d argue we’d be a pretty dangerous team at that. Then add on Barkley and it ends up being a pretty nice place to walk into, not to mention I think he’d be perfect for NY.
We're at best a 1st round wild card exit with Stafford and most likely still miss the playoffs as he did with Detroit all these years. This roster still needs a lot of help and it makes no sense to get the veteran QB when you're not currently set up to win it. The best move for now and later is give Jones one more year and either cast your lot with Jones if he drastically improves or move on and draft another QB if he doesn't play well in year 3.
That 3rd year is the dealbreaker, and we are obligated to give Jones at least that.
I don't understand this mentality. To whom are the Giants obligated?
The Giants can't try to improve at QB until after Jones's 3rd year? Where is that written?
Then you draft another QB if you think that way. You don't pick up a veteran QB to waste his and our time going 8-8, maybe 9-7 with a 1st round wild card exit if everything breaks right
but I would upgrade at QB now if it was a legit option. I see too much risk with Stafford based on what it would likely take to get him, so that leaves getting in on the Watson sweepstakes or draft a QB that falls at 11. Or hey, maybe Aaron Rodgers wants out!?
I don’t see any of them as being realistic options, however.
but I would upgrade at QB now if it was a legit option. I see too much risk with Stafford based on what it would likely take to get him, so that leaves getting in on the Watson sweepstakes or draft a QB that falls at 11. Or hey, maybe Aaron Rodgers wants out!?
I don’t see any of them as being realistic options, however.
Drafting a QB at 11 or getting in the Watson sweepstakes make far more sense than picking up a QB in Stafford who is a physically beat up guy in his 30s and who at most will get you from bad to mediocre. I can support moving on from Jones by either drafting a QB if there's one we really like or getting Watson because both of those opportunities can net us a franchise QB for the long term. I can't support denying Jones the opportunity of a year 3 with Stafford though.
but I would upgrade at QB now if it was a legit option. I see too much risk with Stafford based on what it would likely take to get him, so that leaves getting in on the Watson sweepstakes or draft a QB that falls at 11. Or hey, maybe Aaron Rodgers wants out!?
I don’t see any of them as being realistic options, however.
Drafting a QB at 11 or getting in the Watson sweepstakes make far more sense than picking up a QB in Stafford who is a physically beat up guy in his 30s and who at most will get you from bad to mediocre. I can support moving on from Jones by either drafting a QB if there's one we really like or getting Watson because both of those opportunities can net us a franchise QB for the long term. I can't support denying Jones the opportunity of a year 3 with Stafford though.
"Yea but at least we'll win more games than with Jones."
-Go Terps/bw in DC/Producer/LBH15 (now back to JimmyGoogs)/allstarjim et al
I mentioned his third season. It was a great year. But, that was basically it. He doesn’t have great stats throughout the majority of his career. Which is what a lot of BBI people think means to be a franchise QB.
Me personally, I think Stafford peaked early on and then became a gun slinger type and never really became good enough to overcome his mistakes and bad teams he was on. That’s not his fault, it’s just what he was. He was a very solid QB who had 1 awesome peak but then ultimately never really did much. Everyone will be expecting him to be some amazing QB on another team, he’ll be the same guy he’s been for the past 3-4 years.
over the years. I think some fans here overrate him a bit. Especially his pocket presence the past few seasons. He still had an absolute cannon for an arm and always has but IMO he’s just not that great right now.
over the years. I think some fans here overrate him a bit. Especially his pocket presence the past few seasons. He still had an absolute cannon for an arm and always has but IMO he’s just not that great right now.
i don't feel like going through every year but there are more than a few years where he is top-10 (or higher) in many key stats.
he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
Yeah....right now? no shit. Jones has played 2 NFL seasons dude.
The division is weak, and we've got a good head coach and defense. So why not take an opportunity to improve at the most important position? Are we trying to improve or not?
he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
This is what Im talking about....you dont post any substance! It is absolutely disputable based on age, athletic ability, they both have very similar numbers in roughly the same number of games played the last two years, one is 23 the other is 32, one cost more than 20 million, the other costs under 10 million...
Ypu havent brpught up a salient argument yet. Maybe stick to soccer boards?
he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
Yeah....right now? no shit. Jones has played 2 NFL seasons dude.
The division is weak, and we've got a good head coach and defense. So why not take an opportunity to improve at the most important position? Are we trying to improve or not?
Pay attention, your solution involves weakening the defense considerably by letting Williams (forget even considering DT) walk and then whrn teams run all over us and QBs have all the time in the world they need to find a guy, I guess the 32 year old Stafford starts launching missiles to our tiny and slow receivers because we are stuck paying 20 mill per for a corpse.
he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
This is what Im talking about....you dont post any substance! It is absolutely disputable based on age, athletic ability, they both have very similar numbers in roughly the same number of games played the last two years, one is 23 the other is 32, one cost more than 20 million, the other costs under 10 million...
Ypu havent brpught up a salient argument yet. Maybe stick to soccer boards?
There's honestly nothing similar about their stats in any category. There are some areas where Jones is better, primarily as a runner (where he's much better), and some where Jones is worse (pretty much every passing stat, where Jones is significantly worse). They're not similar in any way.
So that leaves me curious as to what exactly qualifies as a salient argument in your opinion? It sure isn't the ridiculous assertion you just tried to pass off as fact.
I mentioned his third season. It was a great year. But, that was basically it. He doesn’t have great stats throughout the majority of his career. Which is what a lot of BBI people think means to be a franchise QB.
He’s gone 4K+ every year he’s been healthy. He’s got an outside shot to hit 50K/300TDs next year — which is like a club of a dozen QBs all time.
Lots to knock on him, but the stats are pretty good.
I agree Stafford is/has been a good QB. But the talk around BBI lately is that you have to be 35-40 TD QB to be considered a good franchise QB.
I don’t agree with that as I’ve said you can be in the 28-33 range and be a franchise QB. I think Stafford was a good franchise QB. He just never truly lived up to the hype. He was good though. Also have to consider the Lions are just a truly historically bad franchise. Tough spot for him.
he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
This is what Im talking about....you dont post any substance! It is absolutely disputable based on age, athletic ability, they both have very similar numbers in roughly the same number of games played the last two years, one is 23 the other is 32, one cost more than 20 million, the other costs under 10 million...
Ypu havent brpught up a salient argument yet. Maybe stick to soccer boards?
There's honestly nothing similar about their stats in any category. There are some areas where Jones is better, primarily as a runner (where he's much better), and some where Jones is worse (pretty much every passing stat, where Jones is significantly worse). They're not similar in any way.
So that leaves me curious as to what exactly qualifies as a salient argument in your opinion? It sure isn't the ridiculous assertion you just tried to pass off as fact.
Great form by you. And yes I am ready for that. So rough calculations are that Stafford brings 600 more passing yards 10 more passing TDs with a much better supporting cast. Jones brings 500 more rushing yards and 3 TD. So I think its fair to mark the discrepancy at +100 total yards and +7 TDs for Stafford, a 10 year vet, vs Jones who had 22 INTs in his first 27 games compared to Stafford with 21...in 13 games to start his career.
My whole point its that you and others are jumping the gun on Jones....big time. He has made plays. His teammates have let him down, a lot in big time situations. But the idea of trading for a 32 year old Matt Stafford when you have a similar QB on your roster already.
My only gripe with Jones has been the fumbling. He has seemed to improve on that. He is guaranteed 2 more years. He is not Manziel, Kizer, Rosen, Mirer, Haskins, et al bad.
Btw, your post is what I call a salient argument. Im just saying, aside from the fumbles, Jones was right there with Stafford as a 2nd year guy playing behind a brand new line, an uncertain set of receivers and comparing him to an 11 year vet, I would not want him to replace Jones.
I clearly pointed out to you how similar that their stats were in those two years. Just one was in the league for a decade, and the other one has had 2 years with 2 different coaches.
I posted that because in many ways I agree with Terps' view on Jones. I am not as strident in that opinion, but I'm tired of having any opinion I post dismissed as being a "negative nelly" or just trying to be a dick.m It is not any kind of outlier opinion to doubt Jones is a franchise QB. Anywhere outside a Giants fan discussion it is actually a pretty widely held opinion.
It would be nice if anyone expressing an opinion on this board could be in some camp other than "Terps" or "ryanmkeane." There is a shit ton of space on that spectrum between those two extremes.
I think there are more than a few not in those camps. To me, any camp saying that Jones is what he is at this point whether good or bad with certainty stand in the way of honest conversation. I have no problem with fans having doubt about Jones, there is good reason from a fan pov to have doubt. Jones also showed in his rookie year why it isn't unreasonable to have hope.
Fans saying that Jones will never get better, or will always have the same fundamental issues seem to hold their opinion high enough to speak in absolutes. That also cuts both ways, if fans on here are talking down to fans that doubt and or speaking with authority that Jones is a franchise qb and anyone that can't see it are full of it just as the other side I spoke about above. Are they deliberately full of it, or just not know any better?
This is a decent point crick....but I almost want to challenge you to find a majority of football threads where nobody makes a gratuitous and ambiguous Jones crack. Its almost like people who get to drunk at a karaoke, know they cant sing and then put on a Queen song.
Stafford is a breaking-down player whose best days are well behind him.
How in the world is that the type of guy we should pursue?
If it weren't for a few very vocal nitwits who detest Jones with every fiber of their being, the notion of trying to obtain stafford would be cause for laughing someone right out of the room.
Stafford is a breaking-down player whose best days are well behind him.
How in the world is that the type of guy we should pursue?
If it weren't for a few very vocal nitwits who detest Jones with every fiber of their being, the notion of trying to obtain stafford would be cause for laughing someone right out of the room.
Stafford makes sense for someone like the Colts or 49ers. I actually like Stafford a lot and think he can still be good, but the Giants are not an above-average QB away from contending.
I posted that because in many ways I agree with Terps' view on Jones. I am not as strident in that opinion, but I'm tired of having any opinion I post dismissed as being a "negative nelly" or just trying to be a dick.m It is not any kind of outlier opinion to doubt Jones is a franchise QB. Anywhere outside a Giants fan discussion it is actually a pretty widely held opinion.
It would be nice if anyone expressing an opinion on this board could be in some camp other than "Terps" or "ryanmkeane." There is a shit ton of space on that spectrum between those two extremes.
I think there are more than a few not in those camps. To me, any camp saying that Jones is what he is at this point whether good or bad with certainty stand in the way of honest conversation. I have no problem with fans having doubt about Jones, there is good reason from a fan pov to have doubt. Jones also showed in his rookie year why it isn't unreasonable to have hope.
Fans saying that Jones will never get better, or will always have the same fundamental issues seem to hold their opinion high enough to speak in absolutes. That also cuts both ways, if fans on here are talking down to fans that doubt and or speaking with authority that Jones is a franchise qb and anyone that can't see it are full of it just as the other side I spoke about above. Are they deliberately full of it, or just not know any better?
This is a decent point crick....but I almost want to challenge you to find a majority of football threads where nobody makes a gratuitous and ambiguous Jones crack. Its almost like people who get to drunk at a karaoke, know they cant sing and then put on a Queen song.
Hi Chopper. I see your point. Even though I was attempting to be balanced about both sides of the aisle, I understand that the ailes themselves are probably not balanced. My intention is to communicate that there are two sides to help soften the communication.
is the classic "10 very good throws in a row and then 2 bone headed pocket plays" whether it is taking a bad sack or throwing a horrible pick, he seems to have a knack for that. I think he's a bit overrated because of his late game heroics, but it was his mistakes that put the team in that spot in the first place
is the classic "10 very good throws in a row and then 2 bone headed pocket plays" whether it is taking a bad sack or throwing a horrible pick, he seems to have a knack for that. I think he's a bit overrated because of his late game heroics, but it was his mistakes that put the team in that spot in the first place
There were long stretches of Eli's career where you could use literally the exact same description for him.
That Stafford is a right time/right place spark of magic away from his legacy being completely different. In terms of true QB talent, Stafford has been top-5 since he entered the league. Talent isn't everything, or else Jeff George would be in the conversation for GOAT, but Stafford is being extremely underrated here.
His career has been sabotaged by a dysfunctional organization. Anyone who wants to use his shortcomings as a comparison to Jones should realize that doing so basically implies that our organization is on par with the Lions.
Stafford has played 12 seasons...well i guess 11 full seasons. Could he go to a team like the Colts or 49ers and they make a SB run? Sure, he could. But...IMO he's not worth giving up a 1st round pick for *at the current time*...he's on the back 9, and getting closer to 18.
Stafford has played 12 seasons...well i guess 11 full seasons. Could he go to a team like the Colts or 49ers and they make a SB run? Sure, he could. But...IMO he's not worth giving up a 1st round pick for *at the current time*...he's on the back 9, and getting closer to 18.
I don't think I'd part with a first rounder either, especially a top ten-ish one.
However, I would seriously consider a second. Sure, Stafford is 32, but 32 in today's game and rules is like being 28. And his salary isn't that punitive, particularly in '22.
So with him, it's a simple question - would Stafford make the Giants better for a second? I don't know how the answer isn't yes.
I'm not saying this is what I would do (I'd be deeper into the Watson sweepstakes), but it's an intriguing idea. Because right now, the NFCE is right there for the taking with the right parts.
Stafford has played 12 seasons...well i guess 11 full seasons. Could he go to a team like the Colts or 49ers and they make a SB run? Sure, he could. But...IMO he's not worth giving up a 1st round pick for *at the current time*...he's on the back 9, and getting closer to 18.
I don't think I'd part with a first rounder either, especially a top ten-ish one.
However, I would seriously consider a second. Sure, Stafford is 32, but 32 in today's game and rules is like being 28. And his salary isn't that punitive, particularly in '22.
So with him, it's a simple question - would Stafford make the Giants better for a second? I don't know how the answer isn't yes.
I'm not saying this is what I would do (I'd be deeper into the Watson sweepstakes), but it's an intriguing idea. Because right now, the NFCE is right there for the taking with the right parts.
Is that really a big prize? People here talked about how how silly it would be to call ourselves NFC champs this year because it was a function of general suckitude. HOw would that be different next year, as opposed to actually trying to build something sustainable (which Detroit already decided couldn't be done with an aging QB)?.
Stafford has played 12 seasons...well i guess 11 full seasons. Could he go to a team like the Colts or 49ers and they make a SB run? Sure, he could. But...IMO he's not worth giving up a 1st round pick for *at the current time*...he's on the back 9, and getting closer to 18.
I don't think I'd part with a first rounder either, especially a top ten-ish one.
However, I would seriously consider a second. Sure, Stafford is 32, but 32 in today's game and rules is like being 28. And his salary isn't that punitive, particularly in '22.
So with him, it's a simple question - would Stafford make the Giants better for a second? I don't know how the answer isn't yes.
I'm not saying this is what I would do (I'd be deeper into the Watson sweepstakes), but it's an intriguing idea. Because right now, the NFCE is right there for the taking with the right parts.
Is that really a big prize? People here talked about how how silly it would be to call ourselves NFC champs this year because it was a function of general suckitude. HOw would that be different next year, as opposed to actually trying to build something sustainable (which Detroit already decided couldn't be done with an aging QB)?.
Building around a quarterback that needs as much help as Jones does isn't sustainable.
apparently Stafford needs as much or more help than Jones.
He has one of the top WR's with him for several years and was able to manage zero playoff wins.
Meanwhile, the Giants likely don't have a top 25 WR on the field and the pitchfork monkeys act like Jones is one of the worst QB's to ever take the field.
Is that really a big prize? People here talked about how how silly it would be to call ourselves NFC champs this year because it was a function of general suckitude. HOw would that be different next year, as opposed to actually trying to build something sustainable (which Detroit already decided couldn't be done with an aging QB)?.
The goal every year should be to win the division. So I'm looking ahead now.
I'm pretty sure I know who Stafford is - a near pro bowl level player who played for a horrible organization and demonstrated he could be a force multiplier.
And I still don't know what we have in Jones. At best, he's probably a game manager that will require a lot of investments to try to optimize his abilities.
So I could see adding Stafford a very good solution for 3-4 years. That's a long time in the NFL.
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In comment 15132968 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15132905 christian said:
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In comment 15132649 ryanmkeane said:
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if everyone is making the argument that Stafford is a franchise QB, why hasn’t he “elevated his teammates” and won some playoff games? Why doesn’t he have amazing stats? These are things you are asking Jones to do right? In year 3 right?
You guys cannot make different arguments at the same time. Stick to one.
Stafford has all the stats, that’s a weird thing to bring up.
Stafford had a top 30 all time season as a QB in his 3rd season and won 10 games. If Jones goes 5K and 41/16 next year — literally every poster on this site will be praising him.
We've talked before about the importance of timing along with resource allocation. Stafford's got two years left on his deal - good amount of time for them to figure out the future at the position while still remaining competitive now.
If we're equating dollars to wins, it's a better use of $20M than it would be to pay Williams, and certainly better than paying a free agent WR.
We would have won 8+ games with Stafford this season.
I’m not defending Jones here, he wasn’t very good to say the least. But this team has 8+ wins if Engram could hold on to the damn ball. He was directly respond for 2-3 losses because of his untimely mishaps
You may be right. But the reason Engram's crucial plays hurt so much is that the offense couldn't generate points in large part due to poor quarterback play. With competent quarterbacking a couple drops are less likely to be game changers.
Have to improve at QB. Be it through Jones getting better or some other route. You can't survive by hoping to hold the opposition under 20 points.
I’m not disagreeing with you but I think you’re underselling just how backbreaking some of Engrams miscues were. It’s hard to score points when your primary target consistently drops the ball and kills drives or better yet, plays tip drill and gives it right to the defender.
I also hold Garrett more responsible than I do Jones. Not that Jones is blameless but Garrett’s offense is freaking archaic. No pre snap motion, route trees that provide zero chance for YAC, not enough explosive opportunities downfield, etc. I know many disagree, but Garrett completely failed at setting this offense up for success. I sure hope he does a shit ton of self scouting and makes some major adjustments. But I’m not hopeful...
I'd rather see whether Jones is the guy for one more year than settle for a "competent placeholder" in Stafford who is almost finished as an NFL QB. 2 years isn't enough to fully determine whether a QB is the answer or not. That 3rd year is the dealbreaker, and we are obligated to give Jones at least that. I'm in the camp where we should let Jones go or draft a QB after 2021 if he isn't the guy.
As for the mediocrity that is Matt Stafford. Stafford has won 9 or more games only 4 times as an NFL QB in 12 seasons and for most of that time he's had a lot more to throw to in Detroit (Megatron, etc). than he would have had this season. Stafford with Sterling Shepard as a #1 receiver would also be pretty helpless, and with no mobility he would have been a sitting duck behind our OL. Megatron is the reason for most of Stafford's stats in the first part of his career. Since Calvin Johnson retired, Stafford hasn't won more than 9 games in a season
I’d support the move, especially if we swing Jones for a decent pick to offset some of Staffords cost.
I’d support the move, especially if we swing Jones for a decent pick to offset some of Staffords cost.
Detroit is letting him go because they won't be competitive until Stafford is too old or physically beat up to be their QB answer. Stafford fits in a place like IND or SF where their championship window is now and they need a QB to put around a talented team. Even Washington is a better fit because they have a top pass rush and need a placeholder QB for a year or two. The Giants aren't in that win now position and the best answer at QB is just play it out with Jones one more year and see what he shows us.
I don't understand this mentality. To whom are the Giants obligated?
The Giants can't try to improve at QB until after Jones's 3rd year? Where is that written?
Plus the trade cost. And I would rather evaluate Jones while continuing to build the team surrounding.
Weird, you advocate jettisoning high priced QBs who have won Super Bowls in favor of low priced rookies who can make plays with their feet but have not played a snap of NFL football....until there is a 32 year old QB coming off injury who carries a 20+ mill per year number and we owe QB 1 his vontract anyways. This plan, comes with the cost of losing our most disruptive D Lineman and limits our flexibility in FA to pay for a questionmark.
Its gotten to the point you now contradict yourself with your negative rhetoric. You make NO sense. People stick up for you but you dont even make sense any more. You post a few sets of numbers, and then when someone like ryanmkeane did here, posts numbers that kind of beat yours up, you reboot and start the same shit again.
I just cant figure it out....I cant believe someone would be so narcisstic, but this whole schtick sounds so contrived and lame.
We're at best a 1st round wild card exit with Stafford and most likely still miss the playoffs as he did with Detroit all these years. This roster still needs a lot of help and it makes no sense to get the veteran QB when you're not currently set up to win it. The best move for now and later is give Jones one more year and either cast your lot with Jones if he drastically improves or move on and draft another QB if he doesn't play well in year 3.
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That 3rd year is the dealbreaker, and we are obligated to give Jones at least that.
I don't understand this mentality. To whom are the Giants obligated?
The Giants can't try to improve at QB until after Jones's 3rd year? Where is that written?
Then you draft another QB if you think that way. You don't pick up a veteran QB to waste his and our time going 8-8, maybe 9-7 with a 1st round wild card exit if everything breaks right
I don’t see any of them as being realistic options, however.
I don’t see any of them as being realistic options, however.
Drafting a QB at 11 or getting in the Watson sweepstakes make far more sense than picking up a QB in Stafford who is a physically beat up guy in his 30s and who at most will get you from bad to mediocre. I can support moving on from Jones by either drafting a QB if there's one we really like or getting Watson because both of those opportunities can net us a franchise QB for the long term. I can't support denying Jones the opportunity of a year 3 with Stafford though.
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but I would upgrade at QB now if it was a legit option. I see too much risk with Stafford based on what it would likely take to get him, so that leaves getting in on the Watson sweepstakes or draft a QB that falls at 11. Or hey, maybe Aaron Rodgers wants out!?
I don’t see any of them as being realistic options, however.
Drafting a QB at 11 or getting in the Watson sweepstakes make far more sense than picking up a QB in Stafford who is a physically beat up guy in his 30s and who at most will get you from bad to mediocre. I can support moving on from Jones by either drafting a QB if there's one we really like or getting Watson because both of those opportunities can net us a franchise QB for the long term. I can't support denying Jones the opportunity of a year 3 with Stafford though.
"Yea but at least we'll win more games than with Jones."
-Go Terps/bw in DC/Producer/LBH15 (now back to JimmyGoogs)/allstarjim et al
Me personally, I think Stafford peaked early on and then became a gun slinger type and never really became good enough to overcome his mistakes and bad teams he was on. That’s not his fault, it’s just what he was. He was a very solid QB who had 1 awesome peak but then ultimately never really did much. Everyone will be expecting him to be some amazing QB on another team, he’ll be the same guy he’s been for the past 3-4 years.
i don't feel like going through every year but there are more than a few years where he is top-10 (or higher) in many key stats.
I'd honestly rather give Jones another year and continue to build the rest of the team.
Stafford will be 33 with some injury concerns........
Yeah....right now? no shit. Jones has played 2 NFL seasons dude.
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he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
Yeah....right now? no shit. Jones has played 2 NFL seasons dude.
The division is weak, and we've got a good head coach and defense. So why not take an opportunity to improve at the most important position? Are we trying to improve or not?
This is what Im talking about....you dont post any substance! It is absolutely disputable based on age, athletic ability, they both have very similar numbers in roughly the same number of games played the last two years, one is 23 the other is 32, one cost more than 20 million, the other costs under 10 million...
Ypu havent brpught up a salient argument yet. Maybe stick to soccer boards?
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In comment 15133295 Go Terps said:
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he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
Yeah....right now? no shit. Jones has played 2 NFL seasons dude.
The division is weak, and we've got a good head coach and defense. So why not take an opportunity to improve at the most important position? Are we trying to improve or not?
Pay attention, your solution involves weakening the defense considerably by letting Williams (forget even considering DT) walk and then whrn teams run all over us and QBs have all the time in the world they need to find a guy, I guess the 32 year old Stafford starts launching missiles to our tiny and slow receivers because we are stuck paying 20 mill per for a corpse.
Just the worst.
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he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
This is what Im talking about....you dont post any substance! It is absolutely disputable based on age, athletic ability, they both have very similar numbers in roughly the same number of games played the last two years, one is 23 the other is 32, one cost more than 20 million, the other costs under 10 million...
Ypu havent brpught up a salient argument yet. Maybe stick to soccer boards?
This is what qualifies as "very similar numbers"?
Stafford:
6583 yards passing / 45 passing TDs / 15 INTs / 8.04 yds/att / 178 yards rushing / 0 rushing TDs / 7 fumbles / 5 game-winning drives
Jones:
5970 yards passing / 35 passing TDs / 22 INTs / 6.58 yds/att / 702 yards rushing / 3 rushing TDs / 29 fumbles / 2 game-winning drives
There's honestly nothing similar about their stats in any category. There are some areas where Jones is better, primarily as a runner (where he's much better), and some where Jones is worse (pretty much every passing stat, where Jones is significantly worse). They're not similar in any way.
So that leaves me curious as to what exactly qualifies as a salient argument in your opinion? It sure isn't the ridiculous assertion you just tried to pass off as fact.
He’s gone 4K+ every year he’s been healthy. He’s got an outside shot to hit 50K/300TDs next year — which is like a club of a dozen QBs all time.
Lots to knock on him, but the stats are pretty good.
I don’t agree with that as I’ve said you can be in the 28-33 range and be a franchise QB. I think Stafford was a good franchise QB. He just never truly lived up to the hype. He was good though. Also have to consider the Lions are just a truly historically bad franchise. Tough spot for him.
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In comment 15133295 Go Terps said:
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he absolutely is an upgrade over Jones. That is indisputable.
This is what Im talking about....you dont post any substance! It is absolutely disputable based on age, athletic ability, they both have very similar numbers in roughly the same number of games played the last two years, one is 23 the other is 32, one cost more than 20 million, the other costs under 10 million...
Ypu havent brpught up a salient argument yet. Maybe stick to soccer boards?
This is what qualifies as "very similar numbers"?
Stafford:
6583 yards passing / 45 passing TDs / 15 INTs / 8.04 yds/att / 178 yards rushing / 0 rushing TDs / 7 fumbles / 5 game-winning drives
Jones:
5970 yards passing / 35 passing TDs / 22 INTs / 6.58 yds/att / 702 yards rushing / 3 rushing TDs / 29 fumbles / 2 game-winning drives
There's honestly nothing similar about their stats in any category. There are some areas where Jones is better, primarily as a runner (where he's much better), and some where Jones is worse (pretty much every passing stat, where Jones is significantly worse). They're not similar in any way.
So that leaves me curious as to what exactly qualifies as a salient argument in your opinion? It sure isn't the ridiculous assertion you just tried to pass off as fact.
Great form by you. And yes I am ready for that. So rough calculations are that Stafford brings 600 more passing yards 10 more passing TDs with a much better supporting cast. Jones brings 500 more rushing yards and 3 TD. So I think its fair to mark the discrepancy at +100 total yards and +7 TDs for Stafford, a 10 year vet, vs Jones who had 22 INTs in his first 27 games compared to Stafford with 21...in 13 games to start his career.
My whole point its that you and others are jumping the gun on Jones....big time. He has made plays. His teammates have let him down, a lot in big time situations. But the idea of trading for a 32 year old Matt Stafford when you have a similar QB on your roster already.
My only gripe with Jones has been the fumbling. He has seemed to improve on that. He is guaranteed 2 more years. He is not Manziel, Kizer, Rosen, Mirer, Haskins, et al bad.
Btw, your post is what I call a salient argument. Im just saying, aside from the fumbles, Jones was right there with Stafford as a 2nd year guy playing behind a brand new line, an uncertain set of receivers and comparing him to an 11 year vet, I would not want him to replace Jones.
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I posted that because in many ways I agree with Terps' view on Jones. I am not as strident in that opinion, but I'm tired of having any opinion I post dismissed as being a "negative nelly" or just trying to be a dick.m It is not any kind of outlier opinion to doubt Jones is a franchise QB. Anywhere outside a Giants fan discussion it is actually a pretty widely held opinion.
It would be nice if anyone expressing an opinion on this board could be in some camp other than "Terps" or "ryanmkeane." There is a shit ton of space on that spectrum between those two extremes.
I think there are more than a few not in those camps. To me, any camp saying that Jones is what he is at this point whether good or bad with certainty stand in the way of honest conversation. I have no problem with fans having doubt about Jones, there is good reason from a fan pov to have doubt. Jones also showed in his rookie year why it isn't unreasonable to have hope.
Fans saying that Jones will never get better, or will always have the same fundamental issues seem to hold their opinion high enough to speak in absolutes. That also cuts both ways, if fans on here are talking down to fans that doubt and or speaking with authority that Jones is a franchise qb and anyone that can't see it are full of it just as the other side I spoke about above. Are they deliberately full of it, or just not know any better?
This is a decent point crick....but I almost want to challenge you to find a majority of football threads where nobody makes a gratuitous and ambiguous Jones crack. Its almost like people who get to drunk at a karaoke, know they cant sing and then put on a Queen song.
He did it at Georgia and he did in Detroit.
He's 74-90-1 in 12 seasons as an NFL QB. He has 3 playoff appearances in those seasons - all of them loses.
He's a talented loser.
He did it at Georgia and he did in Detroit.
He's 74-90-1 in 12 seasons as an NFL QB. He has 3 playoff appearances in those seasons - all of them loses.
He's a talented loser.
I kinda feel the same way.
How in the world is that the type of guy we should pursue?
If it weren't for a few very vocal nitwits who detest Jones with every fiber of their being, the notion of trying to obtain stafford would be cause for laughing someone right out of the room.
How in the world is that the type of guy we should pursue?
If it weren't for a few very vocal nitwits who detest Jones with every fiber of their being, the notion of trying to obtain stafford would be cause for laughing someone right out of the room.
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Matt Stafford is a classic under-achiever.
He did it at Georgia and he did in Detroit.
He's 74-90-1 in 12 seasons as an NFL QB. He has 3 playoff appearances in those seasons - all of them loses.
He's a talented loser.
I kinda feel the same way.
As do I
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In comment 15132316 Mike from Ohio said:
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I posted that because in many ways I agree with Terps' view on Jones. I am not as strident in that opinion, but I'm tired of having any opinion I post dismissed as being a "negative nelly" or just trying to be a dick.m It is not any kind of outlier opinion to doubt Jones is a franchise QB. Anywhere outside a Giants fan discussion it is actually a pretty widely held opinion.
It would be nice if anyone expressing an opinion on this board could be in some camp other than "Terps" or "ryanmkeane." There is a shit ton of space on that spectrum between those two extremes.
I think there are more than a few not in those camps. To me, any camp saying that Jones is what he is at this point whether good or bad with certainty stand in the way of honest conversation. I have no problem with fans having doubt about Jones, there is good reason from a fan pov to have doubt. Jones also showed in his rookie year why it isn't unreasonable to have hope.
Fans saying that Jones will never get better, or will always have the same fundamental issues seem to hold their opinion high enough to speak in absolutes. That also cuts both ways, if fans on here are talking down to fans that doubt and or speaking with authority that Jones is a franchise qb and anyone that can't see it are full of it just as the other side I spoke about above. Are they deliberately full of it, or just not know any better?
This is a decent point crick....but I almost want to challenge you to find a majority of football threads where nobody makes a gratuitous and ambiguous Jones crack. Its almost like people who get to drunk at a karaoke, know they cant sing and then put on a Queen song.
Hi Chopper. I see your point. Even though I was attempting to be balanced about both sides of the aisle, I understand that the ailes themselves are probably not balanced. My intention is to communicate that there are two sides to help soften the communication.
He's also probably a 95 in Madden.
There were long stretches of Eli's career where you could use literally the exact same description for him.
That Stafford is a right time/right place spark of magic away from his legacy being completely different. In terms of true QB talent, Stafford has been top-5 since he entered the league. Talent isn't everything, or else Jeff George would be in the conversation for GOAT, but Stafford is being extremely underrated here.
His career has been sabotaged by a dysfunctional organization. Anyone who wants to use his shortcomings as a comparison to Jones should realize that doing so basically implies that our organization is on par with the Lions.
I don't think I'd part with a first rounder either, especially a top ten-ish one.
However, I would seriously consider a second. Sure, Stafford is 32, but 32 in today's game and rules is like being 28. And his salary isn't that punitive, particularly in '22.
So with him, it's a simple question - would Stafford make the Giants better for a second? I don't know how the answer isn't yes.
I'm not saying this is what I would do (I'd be deeper into the Watson sweepstakes), but it's an intriguing idea. Because right now, the NFCE is right there for the taking with the right parts.
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Stafford has played 12 seasons...well i guess 11 full seasons. Could he go to a team like the Colts or 49ers and they make a SB run? Sure, he could. But...IMO he's not worth giving up a 1st round pick for *at the current time*...he's on the back 9, and getting closer to 18.
I don't think I'd part with a first rounder either, especially a top ten-ish one.
However, I would seriously consider a second. Sure, Stafford is 32, but 32 in today's game and rules is like being 28. And his salary isn't that punitive, particularly in '22.
So with him, it's a simple question - would Stafford make the Giants better for a second? I don't know how the answer isn't yes.
I'm not saying this is what I would do (I'd be deeper into the Watson sweepstakes), but it's an intriguing idea. Because right now, the NFCE is right there for the taking with the right parts.
Is that really a big prize? People here talked about how how silly it would be to call ourselves NFC champs this year because it was a function of general suckitude. HOw would that be different next year, as opposed to actually trying to build something sustainable (which Detroit already decided couldn't be done with an aging QB)?.
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In comment 15133961 ryanmkeane said:
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Stafford has played 12 seasons...well i guess 11 full seasons. Could he go to a team like the Colts or 49ers and they make a SB run? Sure, he could. But...IMO he's not worth giving up a 1st round pick for *at the current time*...he's on the back 9, and getting closer to 18.
I don't think I'd part with a first rounder either, especially a top ten-ish one.
However, I would seriously consider a second. Sure, Stafford is 32, but 32 in today's game and rules is like being 28. And his salary isn't that punitive, particularly in '22.
So with him, it's a simple question - would Stafford make the Giants better for a second? I don't know how the answer isn't yes.
I'm not saying this is what I would do (I'd be deeper into the Watson sweepstakes), but it's an intriguing idea. Because right now, the NFCE is right there for the taking with the right parts.
Is that really a big prize? People here talked about how how silly it would be to call ourselves NFC champs this year because it was a function of general suckitude. HOw would that be different next year, as opposed to actually trying to build something sustainable (which Detroit already decided couldn't be done with an aging QB)?.
Building around a quarterback that needs as much help as Jones does isn't sustainable.
He has one of the top WR's with him for several years and was able to manage zero playoff wins.
Meanwhile, the Giants likely don't have a top 25 WR on the field and the pitchfork monkeys act like Jones is one of the worst QB's to ever take the field.
But of course, we're regaled about his stat line being fantastic.....
Is that really a big prize? People here talked about how how silly it would be to call ourselves NFC champs this year because it was a function of general suckitude. HOw would that be different next year, as opposed to actually trying to build something sustainable (which Detroit already decided couldn't be done with an aging QB)?.
The goal every year should be to win the division. So I'm looking ahead now.
I'm pretty sure I know who Stafford is - a near pro bowl level player who played for a horrible organization and demonstrated he could be a force multiplier.
And I still don't know what we have in Jones. At best, he's probably a game manager that will require a lot of investments to try to optimize his abilities.
So I could see adding Stafford a very good solution for 3-4 years. That's a long time in the NFL.