I started a thread last week on this, but deleted it. This week, I’ve got to leave it up. As each year passes, I’m more impressed that Coughlin & Eli won *two* titles in their tenure here. It’s so hard to do, as we just watched the Packers lose at home. We watched the Saints lose last week at home.
Just an incredible accomplishment.
Fair enough, but you did say you liked Garrett while acknowledging that the scheme sucked. My point stands.
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What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason.
Fair enough, but you did say you liked Garrett while acknowledging that the scheme sucked. My point stands.
I didn't say the scheme sucked. I don't consider myself qualified to make that statement.
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What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason.
Fair enough, but you did say you liked Garrett while acknowledging that the scheme sucked. My point stands.
We’ll see of course, but I believe if SB is pretty much back to himself and the receiving corps is fortified/improved, Garrett will be less hamstrung..I think he had to play to his overall talent which from a fan’s POV, could/can be quite frustrating i’m sure
THIS IS THE HEART OF THE MATTER. Right here.
There are 53 players on an active roster. I don't know the exact number, but I believe less than 5 are left from the Jerry Reese era. Tomlinson, Sheppard, Engram, and...? That it?
Not only did they have to replace starters, they had to replace backups. And third stringers. Essentially, they have churned the entire 53 man roster in three years and churned it again when it wasn't working.
I have to admit, I didn't realize it was THAT bad in 2018. YOU CAN BLAME GETTLEMAN FOR NOT REALIZING IT EITHER! OKAY! I CONCEDE THAT POINT! Now, that said, 8 games into the season, they realized it and churned the whole thing and started the rebuild.
There was also a defensive philosophy change in there to go from a base 4-3 to a 3-4. That requires even more personnel change.
How many players can, and should, a team require per offseason? There is a finite amount of resources. You can only plug so many holes/deficiencies in per single offseason.
We have started the process of building from the inside out. With the exception of Tomlinson, the entire offensive and defensive lines needed to be replaced.
It's cliche, but Rome wasn't built in a day. The defense took a major step forward and we saw some results this year. If the offense can take a similar step forward next year to match the defense, we will finally be in a decent place going forward.
Yes, teams are built to go from worst to first in the NFL. That is the age of parity. But what faced Mara and Gettleman in 2018 was nearly equal to starting an expansion team. They had to build an entire roster. It was, and is, a big job. AGAIN, I concede they failed to recognize the scope. I understand people's frustration with that. But that is where we are now.
Drafted Dexter Lawrence
Traded a 3rd and 5th for Leonard Williams.
Signed a tackling machine at LB in Blake Martinez
Signed an All Pro CB in Bradburry.
Traded for Peppers who played like an All Pro this season
Signed Logan Ryan, great veteran player and leader
Drafted Xavier McKinney
That's acquiring a lot of talent in two offseasons, regardless of what happened with other signings/draft picks! Can we acknowledge that?
Offense next. We need a WR and TE desperately. If we can see it, they can.
This is not plug and play.
They've done terribly.
Also, success and failure in the NFL isn't a neat curve. The Giants are as likely to go 3-13 next year as 9-7.
I want a guy that can see his mistakes and move on from them, not a guy who stubbornly sticks with it and wait for something else to fix it.
And no, Daniel Jones is not an example of that. Yet.
2013: Offense is broken, let’s fix it by bringing in McAdoo and drafting Beckham. Defense then suffers.
2015: The defense stinks, let’s spend $100m on that side of the ball. Offense then suffers.
2016: The defense is great, now we just need to focus on the offense.
2017: Defense takes a step back, the entire team falls off.
Sound familiar? The Giants have been overly focused on one side of the ball for almost a decade. Why should we believe the defense will perform at the same level next year. Just bring in the best players.
They've done terribly.
Also, success and failure in the NFL isn't a neat curve. The Giants are as likely to go 3-13 next year as 9-7.
Who are we talking about? Cleveland? Arizona?
This is going to be a fundamental disagreement here, but I'm still going to say it.
Those franchises are historically inept franchises. They have poor seasons like that ALL THE TIME, beyond their players. Those teams/rosters often had HOF players and just still stunk for whatever reason. Joe Thomas, LT, the most important position on the team arguably, HOF LT. Loser career. Larry Fitzgerald. They had decent rosters in a lot of cases. Those franchises are the teams that the NFL actually created parity for in the first place, and some still struggle to beat their way out of a paper bag. So they hit once in a while. But they always return back to their line. Time will tell if Arizona and Cleveland remain consistent winners.
So I will argue that despite the record, the New York Giants did not start at the same place as those other teams.
You will disagree with that, and will point to the record as being the same. But that's where I'm coming from so we'll just agree to disagree on that.
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It's cliche, but Rome wasn't built in a day. The defense took a major step forward and we saw some results this year. If the offense can take a similar step forward next year to match the defense, we will finally be in a decent place going forward.
2013: Offense is broken, let’s fix it by bringing in McAdoo and drafting Beckham. Defense then suffers.
2015: The defense stinks, let’s spend $100m on that side of the ball. Offense then suffers.
2016: The defense is great, now we just need to focus on the offense.
2017: Defense takes a step back, the entire team falls off.
Sound familiar? The Giants have been overly focused on one side of the ball for almost a decade. Why should we believe the defense will perform at the same level next year. Just bring in the best players.
The trenches, Sean. The core of the team. That was the failure in all of those seasons you mentioned. Only in the past three years have we seen a true commitment to rebuilding those and building from the inside out.
It is a hard transition. A lot of things that had been in place for ten years or more fell apart or had to be blown up.
Teams like Cleveland and Arizona go through that process every other year.
So is 15-33 "within reason"?
But there are teams that do that well that don't translate to much other than empty stats. Didn't Aaron Rodgers just show us that yet again? You can throw for a million yards and a million TD's and no INT's and it only gets you but so far when it's all said and done and the smoke settles.
Let's look at Justin Herbert for a second because he has been a hot topic here this offseason. Why do people have such confidence that Justin Herbert turning the Chargers around? He scored a lot of points. He passed the ball a lot. 31 TD's to 10 INT's. Awesome. Looks like the real deal. Great player. Agree. Where did it get the Chargers? 7-9? Why are the Chargers going to turn it around NOW? They bungled Drew Brees. They couldn't get it done with Phil Rivers... They just fired yet another coach. They've been through how many GM's in the past 10 years? BUT THIS TIME, this time is going to be different? Why? Why is Justin Herbert any different than the guys of the past 20 years for the Chargers?
The game is a lot more complicated than just getting QB that can throw and score a lot of points.
For whatever reason, his arm and scoring a lot of points can't get them over the hump.
Is that more clear?
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Over-drafting a player because you want a player from the past would be foolish. But, you and I don't agree with the value of Jones, there really isn't a need to go into that.
I also don't agree with your view on Garrett's offense or why he was hired here.
Lastly Jones is a developing qb who I think deserves a decent opportunity to thrive. We hear the roster sucks, we hear the scheme sucks, wouldn't be surrounded by that hurt a Qb's chance to develop?
This is what baffles me about the status quo defenders. DG and Garrett are doing great jobs, but Jones is stuck with a shitty roster and a poor scheme.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Outside of a few nutjobs, doubt there are really that many people stating Gettleman is doing a great job. While there is a wide range of thought on his performance, Gettleman defenders will tread carefully when supporting him for obvious reasons.
Some will stay at a pretty high level like suggesting not all GMs bat a thousand, or state the draft is a crapshoot for everybody, or just blame how Reese left the roster a shambles.
Others will get into more details and try to pivot the discussion on bad/questionable moves. Some examples include suggesting the Solder deal had to happen to fix the OL, as if he was the only available Tackle on the face of the earth; or that DG didn't have anybody to trade down with regarding the #2 overall pick; or that Mara forced him to stick with Eli cascading to a series of related issues. This group usually attempts to move the playing field to a reset when Daniel Jones started playing or maybe even just 2020 where they can point to some favorable offseasonmoves and find some safe-haven to defend.
And then there is another smaller group that just goes all-in with the defense. They usually lead by attacking the poster first with anything and everything. Then they gradually slow down a bit and flip the conversation to make you suggest what would have been the "better" move or direction to take on something so they can attack your thinking and redirect the whole conversation to discrediting your opinion versus DG. At some point, this group ends their defense with a profanity-laced summary of the argument, throw in a few exaggerations for effect, and exit stage left.
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In comment 15135276 crick n NC said:
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Over-drafting a player because you want a player from the past would be foolish. But, you and I don't agree with the value of Jones, there really isn't a need to go into that.
I also don't agree with your view on Garrett's offense or why he was hired here.
Lastly Jones is a developing qb who I think deserves a decent opportunity to thrive. We hear the roster sucks, we hear the scheme sucks, wouldn't be surrounded by that hurt a Qb's chance to develop?
This is what baffles me about the status quo defenders. DG and Garrett are doing great jobs, but Jones is stuck with a shitty roster and a poor scheme.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Outside of a few nutjobs, doubt there are really that many people stating Gettleman is doing a great job. While there is a wide range of thought on his performance, Gettleman defenders will tread carefully when supporting him for obvious reasons.
Some will stay at a pretty high level like suggesting not all GMs bat a thousand, or state the draft is a crapshoot for everybody, or just blame how Reese left the roster a shambles.
Others will get into more details and try to pivot the discussion on bad/questionable moves. Some examples include suggesting the Solder deal had to happen to fix the OL, as if he was the only available Tackle on the face of the earth; or that DG didn't have anybody to trade down with regarding the #2 overall pick; or that Mara forced him to stick with Eli cascading to a series of related issues. This group usually attempts to move the playing field to a reset when Daniel Jones started playing or maybe even just 2020 where they can point to some favorable offseasonmoves and find some safe-haven to defend.
And then there is another smaller group that just goes all-in with the defense. They usually lead by attacking the poster first with anything and everything. Then they gradually slow down a bit and flip the conversation to make you suggest what would have been the "better" move or direction to take on something so they can attack your thinking and redirect the whole conversation to discrediting your opinion versus DG. At some point, this group ends their defense with a profanity-laced summary of the argument, throw in a few exaggerations for effect, and exit stage left.
Now do the Gettleman Hater's M.O.
I'd love to hear it. Same terms as above.
For whatever reason, his arm and scoring a lot of points can't get them over the hump.
Is that more clear?
Rodgers has been in the NFCC each of the last two years. If that's empty, then what is the Giants' 11-21 record over that span? Hyper-empty?
How can you rationalize that what the Giants are doing is working, but what Green Bay is doing with Aaron Rodgers is not?
Remember how we heard the Jaguars were building their team well? Young squad with a tough D that is well positioned for years of success. One win this year.
Cleveland and Arizona seem to be the flavor of the month frequently. Heck, we were regaled this season about how Arizona is doing things the right way. How did they do in the playoffs? Oh, that's right. Same with the Raiders. They beat the Chiefs and the board explodes in optimism.
Here's the thing I don't get - some of the same people trumpeting those teams for doing things right, lament that the Giants making the playoffs this season would be a travesty.
There's not a lot of consistency in argumentation. I would bet that the Giants will get another SB win before the Raiders, Cards or Browns.
- 6-10 in the worst division of NFL history
- Picked at top of the draft three years running and yet there are holes all over the roster
Is there more?
- 6-10 in the worst division of NFL history
- Picked at top of the draft three years running and yet there are holes all over the roster
Is there more?
So it's that simple huh? They (you) come at it so logically and even keeled, no biases whatsoever. Just stone cold facts and reality. Level playing field. Got it.
The NFC South the season the Panthers went 7-9 only had 22 total wins. Heck, WFT didn't go 6-10. They matched Seattle and Carolina at 7-9.
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- 15-33 overall record
- 6-10 in the worst division of NFL history
- Picked at top of the draft three years running and yet there are holes all over the roster
Is there more?
So it's that simple huh? They (you) come at it so logically and even keeled, no biases whatsoever. Just stone cold facts and reality. Level playing field. Got it.
Simple answer usually works best :-)
Seriously though, I will let you draft the opposition's stance. I am going to lunch.
- 6-10 in the worst division of NFL history
- Picked at top of the draft three years running and yet there are holes all over the roster
Is there more?
Isn't it time to log out and begin posting as LBH15? Gotta keep the schtick going.
The NFC South the season the Panthers went 7-9 only had 22 total wins. Heck, WFT didn't go 6-10. They matched Seattle and Carolina at 7-9.
Yeah, I didn't really know though figured it was close.
And at least the Giants went 4-2 as well and were an Engram-catch away from being 5-1. Ah, yes...there is always a silver lining!
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the division was not the worst in NFL history although it was poor. Not sure what that has to do with being 6-10 though.
The NFC South the season the Panthers went 7-9 only had 22 total wins. Heck, WFT didn't go 6-10. They matched Seattle and Carolina at 7-9.
Yeah, I didn't really know though figured it was close.
And at least the Giants went 4-2 as well and were an Engram-catch away from being 5-1. Ah, yes...there is always a silver lining!
Dupetastic.
- 6-10 in the worst division of NFL history
- Picked at top of the draft three years running and yet there are holes all over the roster
Is there more?
That's irrelevant around here. Those are just numbers. Silly numbers.
What matters is the people in charge are trying very hard and they are nice, quality people. And they supposedly know more about football than any of us. So it's best as fans we exercise patience - because that's what Mara asked for again at the State of Jints Central a few weeks ago - and "trust" that they will get this right.
I have a feeling if these same people where your money managers they would have been telling you to hold onto Enron in 2001 and trust Ken Lay...
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What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason.
So is 15-33 "within reason"?
Bw, you search for context when it suits your view, then leave out context when it does not. It is part of how you have chosen to represent yourself here.
They were not moving away from Eli until his contract was over. Period. Any moves made during Eli time here was to keep trying to win a trophy. So, while i didn't like any of the moves that were made, let not act like Gettleman walked in and had no idea what was going on.
They were not moving away from Eli until his contract was over. Period. Any moves made during Eli time here was to keep trying to win a trophy. So, while i didn't like any of the moves that were made, let not act like Gettleman walked in and had no idea what was going on.
Who is defending Gettleman here? Some of us that don't form an opinion as fast as others aren't necessarily defending a philosophy of an individual.
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Let's be honest here. It was never a evaluation of what the team was or where it was at. Why people are seemingly trying to defend the GM here is cringeworthy.
They were not moving away from Eli until his contract was over. Period. Any moves made during Eli time here was to keep trying to win a trophy. So, while i didn't like any of the moves that were made, let not act like Gettleman walked in and had no idea what was going on.
Who is defending Gettleman here? Some of us that don't form an opinion as fast as others aren't necessarily defending a philosophy of an individual.
I said seemingly by implying the moves that was made this year. It's like the first 2 years didn't count
Then I proceeded to talk about all the moves since, not just this years, but included last year’s as well.
Also added that an entire 53 man roster can’t be built or turned over in one season due to finite resources, but came to the conclusion that the sum of the parts does indicate that talent has been acquired.
However, I can acknowledge that talent has been acquired, and that I can see a roster being built. Not patchwork, but from the inside out.
However, I can acknowledge that talent has been acquired, and that I can see a roster being built. Not patchwork, but from the inside out.
I would be happy with being called a Gettleman critic, which is similar to calling you a defender, because I am. I bristle when the criticism is labeled hate. 15-33 is reasonable to criticize.
I would argue the circumstances explain the 2nd half of the 2020 season but seeing hope in those results is reasonable too. It just is. Next year again. At some point, the excuses, have to end though.
However, I can acknowledge that talent has been acquired, and that I can see a roster being built. Not patchwork, but from the inside out.
I agree with this.
The roster is very thin, and there isn't much in the way of draft picks and cap space to do anything drastic. And that's without factoring in the real possibility that the QB and the offensive coordinator are poor.
I expect the defense to be worse than it was in 2020, as defense tends to regress to the mean from year to year. I think the offense is going to have to be much, much better in 2021 just to get to 8-8.
However, I haven't seen a lot of signings like that since. I see a young squad being built. A mix of drafted talent, a few savvy traded for talent, and a couple of nice free agent signings.
And your praise the team for adding resources, can you point out the resources that were purged. There's quite a few players that were purged that that didn't need be. Especially on the defensive side..
There is no solid core. The secondary is set. The DL could be gone in one off-season. No Wr's or TE. Zero offensive skill positions threats..
Before we start calling this season an arrow pointing forward, let's see what the off-season brings. I don't think the roster is going to look the same as people are thinking..
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In comment 15135723 crick n NC said:
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What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason.
So is 15-33 "within reason"?
Bw, you search for context when it suits your view, then leave out context when it does not. It is part of how you have chosen to represent yourself here.
Well, the floor is yours to add context to a legitimate question. Not looking to make you uncomfortable, just curious what your thinking is to make your statement.
Solder was the highest paid offensive lineman in history, at least at the time. And that deal was entered into almost three years ago and the NY Giants are still facing cap consequences for it that could even bleed into 2022.
CB Yiadom is a patchwork move, not Nate Solder.
I would be shocked and thrilled if this is a 10+ win team next year and Jones is a top 10-12 QB. I don't see it happening. Do Dave Gettleman 'supporters/defenders' (Whatever you want to call them) see it?
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In comment 15135837 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15135723 crick n NC said:
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What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason.
So is 15-33 "within reason"?
Bw, you search for context when it suits your view, then leave out context when it does not. It is part of how you have chosen to represent yourself here.
Well, the floor is yours to add context to a legitimate question. Not looking to make you uncomfortable, just curious what your thinking is to make your statement.
Britt did an excellent job above detailing the context.
I respect that take, but in reality we both know building a championship team is usually a step process and doesn't come out of nowhere.
So "whatever comes between" will likely require an upward trajectory and the end of these double digit loss seasons.
I think that's all anyone wants. Strong evidence this team is close. In 2005 it was pretty clear the team was getting close, in 1984 it was pretty clear the team was getting close.
If the Giants win 9 or 10 games next year, led by Jones, I guarantee you Terps and I will be high fiving.