Coughlin & Eli winning 2 titles is an enormous feat-

Even the great all-timers continuously fall short..So much has to go your way..

also why what Tom Brady has done is just unbelievable...

It shows how truly hard it is to win the championship. It also shows how special of a player Brady is. I think barring injury, Mahomes gets there as well.

Well said.

In comment 15132922 GiantNatty said:

Quote:

also why what Tom Brady has done is just unbelievable...

Brady is the goat and it isn’t close. What he’s done is amazing.

combination for championship success. We weren't the flashiest, but without question had that championship recipe.

Rodgers
Favre
Brees
Warner
Wilson

play down how good a coach TC was.

In comment 15132938 lax counsel said:

Quote:

It shows how truly hard it is to win the championship. It also shows how special of a player Brady is. I think barring injury, Mahomes gets there as well.

Not with his 50 million cap hit

Brady always took less money to win.
Mahomes salary will hurt the future

It’s a good reminder.

that's intentional grounding.

In comment 15132955 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 15132922 GiantNatty said: Quote: also why what Tom Brady has done is just unbelievable... Brady is the goat and it isn’t close. What he’s done is amazing.

No doubt he’s the goat but he went to a rather stacked offensive team. That offense prior to this year didn’t have problems scoring with Jameis and Fitzmagic leading even with all the ints they each threw.

When all those dudes are going from thread to thread saying what some of our guys will or won’t ever do, or this guy needs to be cut or that guy needs to be fired.... Remember a faction just like that wanted both Eli and Coughlin run out of town in some form or fashion nearly every season they were here.

All of it meant/means nothing. Their book is written and now that the dust is settled you see what’s what. No, Eli never won the MVP or threw for 40 plus TD’s and single digit int’s. He was never the first pick in anybody’s fantasy draft. But he has 2 rings and a lot of guys people might have preferred over him don’t.

In comment 15133162 Britt in VA said:

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When all those dudes are going from thread to thread saying what some of our guys will or won’t ever do, or this guy needs to be cut or that guy needs to be fired.... Remember a faction just like that wanted both Eli and Coughlin run out of town in some form or fashion nearly every season they were here. All of it meant/means nothing. Their book is written and now that the dust is settled you see what’s what. No, Eli never won the MVP or threw for 40 plus TD’s and single digit int’s. He was never the first pick in anybody’s fantasy draft. But he has 2 rings and a lot of guys people might have preferred over him don’t.

What happened with Eli and Coughlin has zero to do with what's happening now. Unfortunately you're not the only guy the doesn't understand that...that problem extends up into ownership.

You ever gonna have the balls to name the people you're calling out?

But this condemnation-type post every week makes you look ridiculous.

Just saying,

by Fatman a week or two ago that was a good reminder. You weren’t one of them. You paranoid or something?

Also, I understand perfectly that those Giants aren’t comparable to this team. What you keep failing to understand is I’m not comparing the teams, I’m comparing the blowhard know it all’s that went from thread to thread and thought they knew better than everybody else and loved to tell you all about it.

In comment 15133191 LBH15 said:

Quote:

But this condemnation-type post every week makes you look ridiculous. Just saying,

Nah. It’s January 24th and I’m enjoying watching the playoffs today. Nothing wrong with appreciating the two titles.

The guy calling out Giant fans further down the thread.

Anybody that’s been on this site long enough knows everything I just said is accurate.

but you just are acting weird and holding grudges against factions of old fans you disagree with?

It’s like your on a ledge somewhere.

.

it's a good idea for Britt to be calling anyone out about anything after the last few years.

For thinking Manning could still play?

For thinking that the roster has stunk since 2012and Manning and Coughlin bore the brunt of the blame for it?

What exactly?

Yeah, the things I wanted to happen didn’t. But I won’t apologize for rooting for them to happen.

And by the way, let’s not get it twisted. I called a lot of what actually happened. It didn’t work out, but it wasn’t anything outlandish.

The book hasn’t been written yet, no matter how many times anybody says it has.

believing Manning still had a lot left. It was remarkably clear that he didn't.

The roster stunk. We’re still working our way out of that.

In comment 15133292 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

The book hasn’t been written yet, no matter how many times anybody says it has.

Sure, the book hasn't been written, but if anyone looks at the roster objectively it's a bottom 10 (and I would argue bottom 5) roster in the sport. It has very few if any at all premium players at premium positions.

The current regime has failed miserably rebuilding this roster. You can't still lack talent in nearly every critical area of a team after 3 years of top 10 picks and cap space.

Giants are no closer to contending than they were the day Gettleman was hired.

I said he could still play. He could still make every throw. That he could be a placeholder while the team was built around him to make the transition that much better for the next guy. That he was capable of playing out his contract and even being extended a year if they were waiting for the right QB. He was capable of all that.

Interestingly enough, had the Giants done that they may have ended up with BBI’s beloved Herbert right in their lap while Eli rode off into the sunset, but I digress.

If you think it is bottom 5 then you also must be elated about the job Judge did.

In comment 15133300 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

The roster stunk. We’re still working our way out of that.

Both were true. Eli was finished, and the roster was terrible.

And the roster is still terrible. They weren't in cap hell, they had top picks for 3 straight years, and the roster is still terrible.

They're no closer to working their way out of it than they were 3 years ago.

Name 5 rosters you would unequivocally say are in worse shape than the Giants right now. How many years does DG get to blame what happened previously?

The teams that take longer than 3 years to rebuild are the organizations that fucking suck. It doesn't take longer than that if you have a front office with a clue.

In comment 15133316 Sean said:

Quote:

If you think it is bottom 5 then you also must be elated about the job Judge did.

Joe Judge did a very good job, but he's not going to make this roster a contender. They need much better players. They need to stop letting a total clown like DG make decisions.

DG should have been shit canned last off-season, he should have been this off-season.

John Mara is a total fool for believing this team is on the right path. It's still on a path to no where.

In comment 15133067 Earl the goat said:

Quote:

In comment 15132938 lax counsel said: Quote: It shows how truly hard it is to win the championship. It also shows how special of a player Brady is. I think barring injury, Mahomes gets there as well. Not with his 50 million cap hit Brady always took less money to win. Mahomes salary will hurt the future

he didn't "always" take less, but he sometimes did.

In comment 15133312 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

I said he could still play. He could still make every throw. That he could be a placeholder while the team was built around him to make the transition that much better for the next guy. That he was capable of playing out his contract and even being extended a year if they were waiting for the right QB. He was capable of all that. Interestingly enough, had the Giants done that they may have ended up with BBI’s beloved Herbert right in their lap while Eli rode off into the sunset, but I digress.

And again, that was a path not taken. And my guess is you weren’t looking for a placeholder...you were looking for the guy that played in 2011. But he was gone already.

Don’t jump off that couch.

I watched the Eli & Coughlin hate for years from the year they got here til the year they left. I wonder if there is a correlation between being extra extroverted and quite dense and posting on message boards. I don’t post often but you guys are unbelievable with your criticism. I guess it’s the culture now - I’ll reference Willy Womka with Gene Wilder....
Here we go again...
“I want it now.... I want the whole world....”
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 15133378 LBH15 said:

Quote:

In comment 15133312 Britt in VA said: Quote: I said he could still play. He could still make every throw. That he could be a placeholder while the team was built around him to make the transition that much better for the next guy. That he was capable of playing out his contract and even being extended a year if they were waiting for the right QB. He was capable of all that. Interestingly enough, had the Giants done that they may have ended up with BBI’s beloved Herbert right in their lap while Eli rode off into the sunset, but I digress. And again, that was a path not taken. And my guess is you weren’t looking for a placeholder...you were looking for the guy that played in 2011. But he was gone already. Don’t jump off that couch.

Is it hard to keep track of whether you’re logged in as Googs or LBH15? I think it would be a pain in the butt.

In comment 15133312 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

I said he could still play. He could still make every throw. That he could be a placeholder while the team was built around him to make the transition that much better for the next guy. That he was capable of playing out his contract and even being extended a year if they were waiting for the right QB. He was capable of all that. Interestingly enough, had the Giants done that they may have ended up with BBI’s beloved Herbert right in their lap while Eli rode off into the sunset, but I digress.

You said he could still play. You were wrong. You said he could make every throw. You were wrong. You said it was the "revenge tour". You were wrong.

McAdoo was right about 2 things. Eli being finished and Patrick Mahomes.

2016 Eli played some shit football, the defense stood on their heads and McAdoo did a good job getting that team to the playoffs. 2017 Eli was terrible. 2018 Eli was terrible.

The organization failed Eli after 2012, but by 2017 he was pretty close to finished, and it was very obvious in 2018 that he was finished.

What does make every throw even mean anyways? In shorts and a t shirt he can throw a 20 yard out? I'm sure he can still do that today. Doesn't mean he wasnt finished. When the bullets were flying he could not consistently make the throws necessary to be a good QB in the NFL.

Eli was not capable of all of that. You watched Eli in 2018 and somehow believed he wasn't finished. You were dead wrong, and you're still wrong.

McAdoo gets a lot of shit around here, but he was right about Eli being finished when he was.

In comment 15133378 LBH15 said:

Quote:

In comment 15133312 Britt in VA said: Quote: I said he could still play. He could still make every throw. That he could be a placeholder while the team was built around him to make the transition that much better for the next guy. That he was capable of playing out his contract and even being extended a year if they were waiting for the right QB. He was capable of all that. Interestingly enough, had the Giants done that they may have ended up with BBI’s beloved Herbert right in their lap while Eli rode off into the sunset, but I digress. And again, that was a path not taken. And my guess is you weren’t looking for a placeholder...you were looking for the guy that played in 2011. But he was gone already. Don’t jump off that couch.

My take is well documented, and it’s exactly as I outlined above. That the team could build around Manning and have it be better for the next guy. You can call it placeholder or whatever you want, but that’s what it was.

by cries of “they think Eli can play til he’s 50” by guys like you doesn’t mean I said that.

In comment 15133387 BubbaMojo said:

Quote:

In comment 15133378 LBH15 said: Quote: In comment 15133312 Britt in VA said: Quote: I said he could still play. He could still make every throw. That he could be a placeholder while the team was built around him to make the transition that much better for the next guy. That he was capable of playing out his contract and even being extended a year if they were waiting for the right QB. He was capable of all that. Interestingly enough, had the Giants done that they may have ended up with BBI’s beloved Herbert right in their lap while Eli rode off into the sunset, but I digress. And again, that was a path not taken. And my guess is you weren’t looking for a placeholder...you were looking for the guy that played in 2011. But he was gone already. Don’t jump off that couch. Is it hard to keep track of whether you’re logged in as Googs or LBH15? I think it would be a pain in the butt.

Ask crick

admit it and say that Eli was finished in 2018, but even DG has said they were wrong thinking that group potentially had another run left in them.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with stating that Eli was done at the end of 2017. He started to show some signs in 2016, calling it shit football a post before was too harsh but he was definitely a problem at times offensively that year.

The problem with the Giants is you can easily make the argument that the Giants are in no better shape going forward than they were the day DG was hired and even being able to have that debate after 3 years of top 6 picks and a lot of cap space is inexcusable.

All of the Giants eggs are in Daniel Jones basket. If he doesn't take a big step forward in 2021 it's back to square one. And he certainly didnt do anything this year to give anyone confidence that he will have a breakout 3rd season.

I didn't hate the Jones pick and I'll never hate drafting a QB if you dont already have one as long as you truly believe in the guy then go for it. But I'd be lying if I said I had confidence in him being the answer at this point. He doesn't look like he has the ability to elevate those around him, and yes I do realize he's not playing with great weapons, but his GM has done nothing to get him top weapons at receiver.

DG has invested a lot of draft capital in the offense and so far it's been a miserable failure.

In comment 15133402 LBH15 said:

Quote:

In comment 15133387 BubbaMojo said: Quote: In comment 15133378 LBH15 said: Quote: In comment 15133312 Britt in VA said: Quote: I said he could still play. He could still make every throw. That he could be a placeholder while the team was built around him to make the transition that much better for the next guy. That he was capable of playing out his contract and even being extended a year if they were waiting for the right QB. He was capable of all that. Interestingly enough, had the Giants done that they may have ended up with BBI’s beloved Herbert right in their lap while Eli rode off into the sunset, but I digress. And again, that was a path not taken. And my guess is you weren’t looking for a placeholder...you were looking for the guy that played in 2011. But he was gone already. Don’t jump off that couch. Is it hard to keep track of whether you’re logged in as Googs or LBH15? I think it would be a pain in the butt. Ask crick

You have three handles? That must be exhausting.

The best thing this front office can do is forget those titles happened. Time to flip the calendar already.

In comment 15133395 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 15133378 LBH15 said: Quote: In comment 15133312 Britt in VA said: Quote: I said he could still play. He could still make every throw. That he could be a placeholder while the team was built around him to make the transition that much better for the next guy. That he was capable of playing out his contract and even being extended a year if they were waiting for the right QB. He was capable of all that. Interestingly enough, had the Giants done that they may have ended up with BBI’s beloved Herbert right in their lap while Eli rode off into the sunset, but I digress. And again, that was a path not taken. And my guess is you weren’t looking for a placeholder...you were looking for the guy that played in 2011. But he was gone already. Don’t jump off that couch. My take is well docvumented, and it’s exactly as I outlined above. That the team could build around Manning and have it be better for the next guy. You can call it placeholder or whatever you want, but that’s what it was.

So DG shouldn’t have taken Daniel Jones?

Where are you going with all this?

In comment 15133405 MookGiants said:

Quote:

admit it and say that Eli was finished in 2018, but even DG has said they were wrong thinking that group potentially had another run left in them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with stating that Eli was done at the end of 2017. He started to show some signs in 2016, calling it shit football a post before was too harsh but he was definitely a problem at times offensively that year.

Manning was sacked 47 times in 2018, including 31 times in the first 8 games as he dealt with a line that turned over all five positions in that time period.

Despite this, he threw for 4200 yards with a 66% completion rate, 21 TD’s to 11 Int’s, and a 92.4 passer rating.

The really concerning part honestly is the corpse of Manning looked a good step or two above what Jones put out there in 2020.

.

In comment 15133424 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 15133405 MookGiants said: Quote: admit it and say that Eli was finished in 2018, but even DG has said they were wrong thinking that group potentially had another run left in them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with stating that Eli was done at the end of 2017. He started to show some signs in 2016, calling it shit football a post before was too harsh but he was definitely a problem at times offensively that year. Manning was sacked 47 times in 2018, including 31 times in the first 8 games as he dealt with a line that turned over all five positions in that time period. Despite this, he threw for 4200 yards with a 66% completion rate, 21 TD’s to 11 Int’s, and a 92.4 passer rating.

And the team won 5 games because he couldn’t carry that sorry ass roster anymore.

Mook is right. Eli showed plenty of decline in 2016. A cold hard but correct decision would have ended it after that season. A hard but easy decision would have done it after 2017. Anything past that was denial. And keeping him on paying his contract and drafting Daniel Jones in 2019 was incompetence.

In comment 15133435 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

.

What gang?

In comment 15133424 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 15133405 MookGiants said: Quote: admit it and say that Eli was finished in 2018, but even DG has said they were wrong thinking that group potentially had another run left in them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with stating that Eli was done at the end of 2017. He started to show some signs in 2016, calling it shit football a post before was too harsh but he was definitely a problem at times offensively that year. Manning was sacked 47 times in 2018, including 31 times in the first 8 games as he dealt with a line that turned over all five positions in that time period. Despite this, he threw for 4200 yards with a 66% completion rate, 21 TD’s to 11 Int’s, and a 92.4 passer rating.

Boy you're going to die on that hill aren't you?

let Eli go after 2016. He showed signs of decline but he absolutely deserved the 2017 season. After the 2017 he probably should have been released or traded but whatever. Bringing him back for the 2019 season at his cap number made no sense on any level. He had a giant fork sticking out of his back and a huge cap number. Another brilliant decision by DG and John Mara.

The Giants were at least 1 if not 2 years late moving on from Eli, they will be at least 1 if not 2 years late moving on from DG.

But hey, this team is on the right path according to JM so all is well.

The problem with the fan base being delusional at times is that John Mara is also delusional.

DG should never have gotten the job 3 years ago and he should not be employed by the Giants still. Joe Judge has a giant anchor around his neck in DG and he better hope DG's ineptitude doesn't cost him his job in a couple years too.

Sitting on couches.

Will always be thankful for those two championships. A lot of fans go their whole lives never experiencing a single one. I am grateful to the ownership, front office and all of the players and coaches of those two amazing runs.

from franchise QBs. I mean I remember when the Dolphins wanted to move on from marino who looked to be in even worse shape than Eli in his last year. It just led to a revolving door of QBs for 20 years and counting now and never winning anything basically.

Coughlin was already a good coach. He took J'ville to the AFC championship twice--an xpansion team.

Eli still could have played out his contract and they should have got herbert. but then do that to eli. The rosters have sucked since 2012.

Mcadoo pfff. Mcadoo wouldn't know what to with mahomes even if he got him. Andy Reid's play calling and his roster has a lot to do with Mahomes.

Mcadoo predictable high school playcalling and no motion offense.

Why bother , the "I want the world" poster got it right. Yea sure and Lamar Jackson is good QB pfff. he is Rg3 part 2 and will end up just like him.

Only post to start shit, nothing of substance.

.

Mara got sentimental with Eli & we definitely should have moved on before, but what's done is done. Gotta move forward.

He definitely could have had a much better back end of his career. As he got older he needed a little more support. Unfortunately the Giants continued to weaken which magnified a diminishing Eli.

Agreed, Sean.

I look at 2008 and 2010 as years we were contenders and didn't win it all. But the Saints/Packers/Peyton Colts have around ten 'missed' years. And they only got one a piece.

And I didn't think that 07 team was going to be a SB contender going into that year.

This is also why Eli has to be a HOF'er IMO. He was the best QB in the most important part of the season twice. He was the MVP in the most important game of the season twice. It's a remarkable feat - especially compared to his peers who were better players each year.

the Maras, DG, and Jints Central!!!

When you consider all that, it makes the parting of the Red Sea look pretty minor.

In comment 15133642 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

Mara got sentimental with Eli & we definitely should have moved on before, but what's done is done. Gotta move forward.

Selfishly, I don’t mind. Imagine Eli in his induction ceremony talking about the two years he played with Jacksonville? I know it shouldn’t matter, but I like how he only played for the Giants.

So maybe the Giants go 7-9 instead of 4-12 / 5-11 if they move on sooner, but glad he wore no other uniform.

great coaching, clutch QB play, and a little bit of luck is the formula for winning SBs.

In comment 15133414 Go Terps said:

Quote:

The best thing this front office can do is forget those titles happened. Time to flip the calendar already.

2019 and 2020 was a nostalgia tour?

Going 7-9 with Teddy Bridgewater in 2018 would have been SO much better than going 5-11 with Eli.

In comment 15133725 BelieveJJ said:

Quote:

the Maras, DG, and Jints Central!!! When you consider all that, it makes the parting of the Red Sea look pretty minor.

So, Mara gets no credit for retaining Coughlin after 2006 and 2010? BBI was ugly back in January of 2007 when Coughlin was retained, the majority here wanted him gone so Charlie Weiss could “fix” Eli. There was a portion here who wanted Coughlin gone after 2010 as well.

That was a time where patience paid off very well for John Mara and he 100% deserves credit for that.

In comment 15133474 LBH15 said:

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Sitting on couches.

Going to log in as Googs or LBH15 today? Maybe do an every other day thing?

If they infused that mercenary Defensive talent in 2016 and kept TC on, might have won three. The offense was rebuilt nafter 2013, just couldn't get any defense.

Worst move ever was forcing TC out and promoting his suboridate. He rode a team he didn't build and the free agent d improvements to 11 wins and a circus lead up to a wild card round loss before presiding over the destruction of the team.

History has proven this move, and subsequent moves after, drove the franchise into the ground. Should have given Coughlin 2016.

Eli, bringing him back in 2019 was dumb. But, end of 2018 was the last time the team looked like it had any type of consistent offense. Eli could probably still produce on a good squad. Look how the Saints carried a one armed Brees to the divisional round. If the Titans or Rams had a 2018 type Eli this year, they may have won it all.

Amazing to win two titles.

In comment 15133787 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

In comment 15133414 Go Terps said: Quote: The best thing this front office can do is forget those titles happened. Time to flip the calendar already. 2019 and 2020 was a nostalgia tour?

Absolutely. Sticking with Eli, and drafting what they view as an Eli clone...they are so insulated in their views they could be posters on BBI. You can bet your house Mara is thinking about Eli in 2007 when thinking about what to do with Jones now.

The best thing for the organization and for Eli would have been for him to leave in 2014 or so. He wouldn't have had such a disastrous second half of his career, and the Giants could have stopped trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

The best thing they can do now is populate the organization with people that don't give a shit about Eli. What we had with him is not relevant to today. Eli may as well be YA Tittle.

Were unbelievable and unique. It is possible to believe that the Giants held on to both too long AND the talent replenishment was not up to par (not to mention bad luck in career limiting or ending injuries to high draft picks such as Phillips, Smith, Nicks, Thomas and Wilson really set the team back).

In comment 15134095 rocco8112 said:

Quote:

If they infused that mercenary Defensive talent in 2016 and kept TC on, might have won three. The offense was rebuilt nafter 2013, just couldn't get any defense. Worst move ever was forcing TC out and promoting his suboridate. He rode a team he didn't build and the free agent d improvements to 11 wins and a circus lead up to a wild card round loss before presiding over the destruction of the team. History has proven this move, and subsequent moves after, drove the franchise into the ground. Should have given Coughlin 2016. Eli, bringing him back in 2019 was dumb. But, end of 2018 was the last time the team looked like it had any type of consistent offense. Eli could probably still produce on a good squad. Look how the Saints carried a one armed Brees to the divisional round. If the Titans or Rams had a 2018 type Eli this year, they may have won it all. Amazing to win two titles.

Eli's 2018 season wasn't even in the ballpark of Tannehill's 2020 season. Tannehill had 33 touchdowns to 7 interceptions this year. He wasn't holding them back. Their defense being atrocious was what held them back.

...the defense was atrocious like it looked like college football bad tackling. You couple that with swiss cheese oline and is it any wonder Eli looked didn't have good stats. I watched a 43 year old brady yesterday play on a team that made correct roster moves to help him win games; something the giants should have done with eli.

Are we still holding fantasies that the Mara's will do what the Ravens did and build a team around a lamar jackson type? It's not because it isn't the giants way -- they won't because it is dumb. When all the hype and all the bs is done and lamar ends up hurt or they finally realize you can't win anything in the playoffs with that kind of qb play ; you'll see the ravens yet again get another qb and start all over again after the years long set back.

In comment 15133791 ryanmkeane said:

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Going 7-9 with Teddy Bridgewater in 2018 would have been SO much better than going 5-11 with Eli.

The ironic thing is. People said Bridgewater would come cheap. Well ask the Panthers what they think about that now. They are basically stuck with him this season with his $23M next season.

He signed a 3 year $63M contract with $33M in guaranteed money.

The guy had a heart of lion..he always rose to the occasion....and most of us felt a 3rd Super Bowl was destined..

Now, he never was shifty...and I feel defenses adjusted to the offense friendly NFL rules....and to counter....teams needed more mobile QBs to succeed....or great OL. The Giants had neither.

we barely made the playoff during TC and Eli's other years
and both runs we had lousy season records that barely got us in the playoffs

4 straight years and Coughlin went 8 consecutive seasons without being below .500

That was pretty damn consistent

Quote:

McAdoo was right about 2 things. Eli being finished and Patrick Mahomes.

McAdoo as idiot savant. Check. Mahomes wasn't exactly a state secret so him being "right about Mahomes" was not some exercise in prescience.

McAdoo was fired and will never be a HC in the NFL again. This is the guy you have hitched your wagon to. Good luck.

This is all water under the bridge. There were several ways to play this out, and the team chose the way they chose. You all see the results.

maintain that several years from now, we'll have this narrative on the board that McAdoo not only wanted Mahomes, but resigned in anger after his wishes weren't heeded.

It is one of the most overblown things posted on BBI

In comment 15134588 giantfan2000 said:

Quote:

we barely made the playoff during TC and Eli's other years and both runs we had lousy season records that barely got us in the playoffs

I think we were 9-7 and 10-6. 9-7 teams are often in the playoffs and 10-6 is not "lousy" by NFL standards.

In comment 15134597 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

maintain that several years from now, we'll have this narrative on the board that McAdoo not only wanted Mahomes, but resigned in anger after his wishes weren't heeded. It is one of the most overblown things posted on BBI

What I can't believe is that nobody can put together that the switch from Tom Coughlin's attack deep offense that Manning had run his whole career to McAdoo's run the same personnel and formation 94% of the time, and only throw short passes regardless of down and distance had more affect on Manning's performance than any sort of physical decline did.

I mean, in 2015, Manning threw 4500 yards, and 35 TD's to only 14 INT's.

The Giants offense in 2015 was the 6th scoring offense in the league.

THEN, in 2016, Manning still threw for 4000 yards, and 26 TD's to only 16 INT's.

The Giants offense in 2016 was the [b]26th scoring offense in the NFL with the EXACT same personnel.

BUT NO! It wasn't McAdoo the offensive guru's fault. It was Eli Manning's physical decline at 34 years old.

People still say here that Ben McAdoo is responsible for resurrecting Eli in 2014 and 2015. Unbelievable. That's where the Eli was washed up narrative started.

Washed up coming off a 4500 yard, 35 TD season at 34 years old. How old is Matt Stafford right now, since so many BBIers want him?

In comment 15134633 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 15134597 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: maintain that several years from now, we'll have this narrative on the board that McAdoo not only wanted Mahomes, but resigned in anger after his wishes weren't heeded. It is one of the most overblown things posted on BBI What I can't believe is that nobody can put together that the switch from Tom Coughlin's attack deep offense that Manning had run his whole career to McAdoo's run the same personnel and formation 94% of the time, and only throw short passes regardless of down and distance had more affect on Manning's performance than any sort of physical decline did. I mean, in 2015, Manning threw 4500 yards, and 35 TD's to only 14 INT's. The Giants offense in 2015 was the 6th scoring offense in the league. THEN, in 2016, Manning still threw for 4000 yards, and 26 TD's to only 16 INT's. The Giants offense in 2016 was the [b]26th scoring offense in the NFL with the EXACT same personnel. BUT NO! It wasn't McAdoo the offensive guru's fault. It was Eli Manning's physical decline at 34 years old. People still say here that Ben McAdoo is responsible for resurrecting Eli in 2014 and 2015. Unbelievable. That's where the Eli was washed up narrative started. Washed up coming off a 4500 yard, 35 TD season at 34 years old. How old is Matt Stafford right now, since so many BBIers want him?

Very good points Britt

Shows you how much people disliked Manning and Coughlin and were ready to discredit them in any way possible.

While we're at comparing the Coughlin 2015 team to the McAdoo 2016 team....

Wanna guess what the defensive ranks were for those two?

2015: 30th in the NFL
2016: 2nd in the NFL

Ha, yeah, let's give McAdoo credit.

where they were tied or led with two minutes to go. There were many games that year where the opposing offense took the field, and scored a walkoff FG or TD to end it after the offense either tied it or took the lead.

They finished 6-10.

bullshit and that's why the defense went from 30th to 2nd and the offense went from 6th to 26th.

McAdoo was a loser. He was Ray Handley level bad.

I can't believe people still give that guy credit.

and made a number of in-game decisions that blew up, and made him look like he was in rapid decline. It was one of those teams that just couldn't make a play when it really needed it.

They used that to usher him out, put their next guy in his spot, and Reese got to keep his job and go on a UFA spending spree for 2016. Despite McAdoo's failure as head coach, he was indeed correct about Mahomes (he was banging the table to trade up for him, and Reese was trying), and that Eli was declining and no longer able to stand in the face of a pass rush, make some of the longer vertical passes, etc. It was what it was, and it wasn't a figment of the imagination.

They still have most of the same decision makers in place, and they brought back DG who's been a mixed bag. This offseason is a crucial one for DG's tenure as GM, and for the next few seasons for NYG as they're invested in Jones, Barkley, etc. It's also why many will be prepared to move on from Jones more quickly, rather than invest bigger cap dollars and time in him.

if I were in charge, Coughlin would've remained after 2015 and I would've been looking for Eli's successor after the 2017 debacle, if I had not sooner. There were plenty of signs at the time to not punt the decision any longer, but DG et al ignored them in 2018.

GMs have to keep one on the present and one eye on the future, and NYG has struggled with it for years. Even while winning the last two titles, they failed to keep the pipeline flowing with talent.

That is all reasonable to me. There were several posters that constant and loud pointing to Manning and Coughlin as the problems while ignoring how the roster had fallen off significantly in major areas (DL,OL,secondary). I feel like like any fans defending Manning weren't denying that he was in decline. We felt his decline was down the list of reasons why did giants couldn't win games.

winning two SBs is an incredible accomplishment. Their collective tenures were very successful but both titles stick out as outliers in a sense compared to the rest of it. Even in this age where you don't need to be a great football team to win it all, it's an awesome and rare achievement. 2011 Giants led by a trio of absolutely clutch and white hot players in Eli, Cruz, and JPP does not happen often.

Calling Gettleman a mixed bag is kind. Three years in they're 15-33 with a roster that has holes all over it, and nothing special in the cupboard with regards to draft picks or cap space.

The team is probably closer to a full tear down than it is a legitimate title contention.

Post on my part

There's often multiple contributing factors, and you could easily make a case that Reese and the pipeline failures were bigger culprits than Eli's decline. I think it's clear they did Eli no favors from 2012 until the end, even when they bet on him in 2018.

In other words, don't listen to dummies.

I sadly don't disagree. For 2021, I'm hoping they put something special together to show signs the talent is ramping up, in addition to a coaching staff that is clearly able to prepare a roster to play greater than the sum of its parts.

understood in game management of the clock. In 2015 he was getting his ass handed to him on a regular basis, the team was mediocre, and the margin of winning and losing in NFL is razor thin so it was extremely highlighted.

Eli’s feet were done in 2018. I get why they thought they could bring him back though. 2017 the offensive line was so bad it was impossible to asses properly.

Look at Rivers, he retired for same reason. Can’t play QB when your feet are in cement. He had arguably the best OL in football, a stable of backs, and legit number 1 WR. They were going no where in playoffs with him at helm with how slow his feet are. Any pressure that gets him off his spot will result in a negative play. Bens are getting there too and wouldn’t be surprised if he looks toast next year.

In comment 15134718 JonC said:

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There's often multiple contributing factors, and you could easily make a case that Reese and the pipeline failures were bigger culprits than Eli's decline. I think it's clear they did Eli no favors from 2012 until the end, even when they bet on him in 2018. In other words, don't listen to dummies.

👍

Thanks. I hope you are a well.

but he had to make decisions knowing that he could not let his own defense back on the field because they could not stop anybody, and that was true. He had to play if perfectly, and he couldn't.

I don't care to argue anything past that point in time. I can see why people don't like Gettleman or any Giants choice post McAdoo.

But too much is made about Eli's decline and Coughlin's fastball, and they turned into monster narratives here that seem to grow and be accepted as fact every year.

Coughlin never understood in-game clock management? I'm not sure I agree with that.

don't listen to football dummies. Spare yourself.

I don't think TC was ever great at clock management. I think his weaknesses became more glaring in 2015.

It's also difficult to keep a coach who has missed the playoffs four years in a row.

In comment 15133474 LBH15 said:

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Sitting on couches.

Says a blowhard know-it-all sitting on a couch.

In comment 15134753 BrettNYG10 said:

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I don't think TC was ever great at clock management. I think his weaknesses became more glaring in 2015. It's also difficult to keep a coach who has missed the playoffs four years in a row.

He also took more risks on offense in 2015, probably in response to trying to keep the defense off the field.

In comment 15134743 crick n NC said:

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Coughlin never understood in-game clock management? I'm not sure I agree with that.

It really wasn’t a strength of his. These younger coaches understand it much better than the older coaches did and we see that play out today. People have attributed it to the Madden effect, which I actually buy into.

In comment 15134773 Zeke's Alibi said:

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In comment 15134743 crick n NC said: Quote: Coughlin never understood in-game clock management? I'm not sure I agree with that. It really wasn’t a strength of his. These younger coaches understand it much better than the older coaches did and we see that play out today. People have attributed it to the Madden effect, which I actually buy into.

I don't recall it being a detriment to the team which would be more along the lines of "never understood" versus not a strength.

In comment 15134762 JonC said:

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In comment 15134753 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: I don't think TC was ever great at clock management. I think his weaknesses became more glaring in 2015. It's also difficult to keep a coach who has missed the playoffs four years in a row. He also took more risks on offense in 2015, probably in response to trying to keep the defense off the field.

Exactly. That's more in line with reality than the senile old coot narrative that took hold.

In comment 15134597 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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maintain that several years from now, we'll have this narrative on the board that McAdoo not only wanted Mahomes, but resigned in anger after his wishes weren't heeded. It is one of the most overblown things posted on BBI

Exactly. I think one of the most overlooked aspects of McAdoo’s tenure was the influence of TC on his scheme. Recall the first 2 games of McAdoo at OC, 14 puts v the mighty Lions and Cardinals, with just over 200 yds per game. BBI was ready to burn the Giants offices down. TC forced McAdoo to use more motion, more bunched WR formations, and the offense took off.

Left to his own devices, McAdoo went back to his old formula - no motion, no bunched sets, playing everything to get Odell open on a slant The only reason the offense was even remotely successful was the brilliance of Odell. Eli isn’t blameless, but he had a fantastic yeas in 2014 & 2015 averaged over 4400 yds, 33 TD’s and 63% completion %.

Did Eli just fall off a cliff in 2016, or was McAdoo exposed as a terrible play designer and caller? While it’s fair to think that Eli may have been declining, I’m going with door B.

is that the NFL has changed significantly over the last decade, and the Giants have been (and are still) slow to catch up. The list of culpable figures all leads up to John Mara.

In comment 15134688 JonC said:

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Despite McAdoo's failure as head coach, he was indeed correct about Mahomes (he was banging the table to trade up for him, and Reese was trying), and that Eli was declining and no longer able to stand in the face of a pass rush, make some of the longer vertical passes, etc. It was what it was, and it wasn't a figment of the imagination.

Is the bold accurate? McAdoo was that emphatic and Reese was trying to to get Mahomes?

Because the deal KC got with Buffalo was easily something we could have packaged.

KC moved up from the 27th pick. We were at the 23rd spot. So we technically had more value.

In comment 15134795 Go Terps said:

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is that the NFL has changed significantly over the last decade, and the Giants have been (and are still) slow to catch up. The list of culpable figures all leads up to John Mara.

I agree with this but don't feel the need to assign blame.

The Giants up until 2015 had a very stable arrangement in place going on a decade and not far removed from two championships. You can't blame them any more than say the Pittsburgh Steelers who were sticking with what was working.

It is time to adapt, I agree. However, you can't just change the way you've done business overnight.

In comment 15134762 JonC said:

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In comment 15134753 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: I don't think TC was ever great at clock management. I think his weaknesses became more glaring in 2015. It's also difficult to keep a coach who has missed the playoffs four years in a row. He also took more risks on offense in 2015, probably in response to trying to keep the defense off the field.

Good point. I view that 15 season through a bit of a different lens now than I did at the time.

I loved TC, I think Giant fans underrated him for the most part.

I thought it was time for him to go after the Beckham game in Carolina. TC wasn't quite the disciplinarian he portrayed himself as, but that sequence wasn't acceptable. And then he claimed he wasn't aware? Really bothered me.

I also didn't really understand the logic of firing him and hiring a subordinate. McAdoo got way too much credit for 'fixing' Eli in 14/15 when Eli just had an atrocious year in '13 due to poor OL, slow adjustments, etc.

We're well past overnight, and I'm still not convinced they're even trying to adapt. Building around a running back, drafting an Eli clone, running Garrett's offense...

I'm interested in assigning blame. We deserve better than Mara telling us each season how the arrow is pointing up, when it isn't.

is over rated. I think he recognized that he had to take more chances with the team he had.

Eli could have definitely been a solid starter IF he had a above average OL and running game. His mind was still intact and that is the most important of the traits.

I think it all goes back to keeping the OL for too long that really was a big part of the 2005-2012 run. It fell apart after 2012 but there were plenty of warning signs. I think this was TC's biggest mistake he made in his coaching career. Too much loyalty.

In comment 15134803 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15134688 JonC said: Quote: Despite McAdoo's failure as head coach, he was indeed correct about Mahomes (he was banging the table to trade up for him, and Reese was trying), and that Eli was declining and no longer able to stand in the face of a pass rush, make some of the longer vertical passes, etc. It was what it was, and it wasn't a figment of the imagination. Is the bold accurate? McAdoo was that emphatic and Reese was trying to to get Mahomes? Because the deal KC got with Buffalo was easily something we could have packaged. KC moved up from the 27th pick. We were at the 23rd spot. So we technically had more value.

Yep. I was told at the time Mahomes was the preferred target, they were trying to trade up to be in position to get him, but they weren't going to move a pile of assets to pull it off and were content to sit tight. Was also told one of the next preferred targets was Engram. I shared this back then, was as surprised as the next fan when hearing of the conviction on Mahomes.

In comment 15134837 JonC said:

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In comment 15134803 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 15134688 JonC said: Quote: Despite McAdoo's failure as head coach, he was indeed correct about Mahomes (he was banging the table to trade up for him, and Reese was trying), and that Eli was declining and no longer able to stand in the face of a pass rush, make some of the longer vertical passes, etc. It was what it was, and it wasn't a figment of the imagination. Is the bold accurate? McAdoo was that emphatic and Reese was trying to to get Mahomes? Because the deal KC got with Buffalo was easily something we could have packaged. KC moved up from the 27th pick. We were at the 23rd spot. So we technically had more value. Yep. I was told at the time Mahomes was the preferred target, they were trying to trade up to be in position to get him, but they weren't going to move a pile of assets to pull it off and were content to sit tight. Was also told one of the next preferred targets was Engram. I shared this back then, was as surprised as the next fan when hearing of the conviction on Mahomes.

Thanks, Jon.

The Chiefs gave up the 27th pick (2017 draft), a third in the 2017 draft and the Chiefs first in the 2018 draft (which I think was the 22nd pick).

In hindsight, that's a steal, but a very fair deal, too, at the time.

Geesh, what might have been - because I think our 2018 pick would have been more attractive to the Bills.

In comment 15134829 Go Terps said:

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We're well past overnight, and I'm still not convinced they're even trying to adapt. Building around a running back, drafting an Eli clone, running Garrett's offense... I'm interested in assigning blame. We deserve better than Mara telling us each season how the arrow is pointing up, when it isn't.

I'm not sure what is negative about wanting another Eli.

because I felt it was time to start grooming a QB, but beyond a big arm and a gunslinger mentality that was fun to watch, I didn't see Mahomes NFL HoFer.

he's taking another victory lap over Lamar Jackson who proved exactly what everyone was expecting...

1. That type of Qb doesn't win playoff games.
2. That type of Qb get hurt often as he had to leave the Bills game hurt.

How is a short passing mobile QB an Eli clone? Eli became a short passing QB but that was because of McAdoo. He was really a deep passing , pocket qb.

Meanwhile a 43 year old Brady is playing in the SB yet again.

In comment 15134852 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15134837 JonC said: Quote: In comment 15134803 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 15134688 JonC said: Quote: Despite McAdoo's failure as head coach, he was indeed correct about Mahomes (he was banging the table to trade up for him, and Reese was trying), and that Eli was declining and no longer able to stand in the face of a pass rush, make some of the longer vertical passes, etc. It was what it was, and it wasn't a figment of the imagination. Is the bold accurate? McAdoo was that emphatic and Reese was trying to to get Mahomes? Because the deal KC got with Buffalo was easily something we could have packaged. KC moved up from the 27th pick. We were at the 23rd spot. So we technically had more value. Yep. I was told at the time Mahomes was the preferred target, they were trying to trade up to be in position to get him, but they weren't going to move a pile of assets to pull it off and were content to sit tight. Was also told one of the next preferred targets was Engram. I shared this back then, was as surprised as the next fan when hearing of the conviction on Mahomes. Thanks, Jon. The Chiefs gave up the 27th pick (2017 draft), a third in the 2017 draft and the Chiefs first in the 2018 draft (which I think was the 22nd pick). In hindsight, that's a steal, but a very fair deal, too, at the time. Geesh, what might have been - because I think our 2018 pick would have been more attractive to the Bills.

If the Giants were trying to trade up to get their future qb, that puts a hole in the theory that Mara didn't allow the Giants to move on or prepare to move on from Manning

In comment 15134859 JonC said:

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because I felt it was time to start grooming a QB, but beyond a big arm and a gunslinger mentality that was fun to watch, I didn't see Mahomes NFL HoFer.

I would never be so bold to say any prospect looks Canton bound.

But Mahomes was unbelievable his last year at TTech. I couldn't believe some of the throws he made, especially rolling left. It was Brett Favre with more athleticism jumping off the screen. And I get very dubious of Big 12 QBs because of the poor defense...

I remember Gruden had Mahomes on his ESPN show where he interviewed and worked with QB prospects before the draft. Watching Gruden break down the film of Mahomes was pure art work. Gruden has seen everything and even he was blown away...

I think by 2017 McAdoo was probably ready to move on from Eli. But, without a proper replacement player or even a plan to trigger it (Geno and Webb were not legit options) he panicked and forced Geno in there, it failed, the fans revolted and Mara took our side. The next mistake was they doubled down on Eli in 2018 and still had no QB on the roster to start the process. Then, it sure seems to me they were a bit desperate (as were fans) to secure Jones in 2019 ...

Except his own, I guess.

In comment 15134867 crick n NC said:

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Thanks, Jon. The Chiefs gave up the 27th pick (2017 draft), a third in the 2017 draft and the Chiefs first in the 2018 draft (which I think was the 22nd pick). In hindsight, that's a steal, but a very fair deal, too, at the time. Geesh, what might have been - because I think our 2018 pick would have been more attractive to the Bills. If the Giants were trying to trade up to get their future qb, that puts a hole in the theory that Mara didn't allow the Giants to move on or prepare to move on from Manning

Maybe so heading into 2017. Or perhaps Mara put the kibosh on the deal because he thought it was too much...? Really don't have a read on that.

But after 2017 and Geno Gate occurred, I am convinced that Mara got a second wind with Eli and went all in looking for magic carpet ride #3.

In comment 15134877 JonC said:

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I think by 2017 McAdoo was probably ready to move on from Eli. But, without a proper replacement player or even a plan to trigger it (Geno and Webb were not legit options) he panicked and forced Geno in there, it failed, the fans revolted and Mara took our side. The next mistake was they doubled down on Eli in 2018 and still had no QB on the roster to start the process. Then, it sure seems to me they were a bit desperate (as were fans) to secure Jones in 2019 ...

It's interesting, because as a big Manning supporter as you would find, I understood the Giants needed to have options going forward for his replacement. A proper plan to replace a team legend isn't typically meant with a revolt. The revolt happened because it seemed like a desperate attempt to shift blame from McAdoo and Reese to Manning like you outlined above. The revolt wasn't an issue, it was the horribly forced plan by all involved. Acquiring a young qb with franchise potential is smart business move that will not be met with criticism by reasonable people, the year who criticize can simply be tuned out (football dummies).

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Then, it sure seems to me they were a bit desperate (as were fans) to secure Jones in 2019 ...

Once the Giants passed on QB in 2018, they should have waited until 2020. The 2019 draft should have been used to build up the infrastructure of the roster. That would have allowed 2020 to be a full clean slate with a new QB (Herbert most likely).

In comment 15134902 Sean said:

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Quote: Then, it sure seems to me they were a bit desperate (as were fans) to secure Jones in 2019 ... Once the Giants passed on QB in 2018, they should have waited until 2020. The 2019 draft should have been used to build up the infrastructure of the roster. That would have allowed 2020 to be a full clean slate with a new QB (Herbert most likely).

That was my plan, including a belief we'd be picking top 5 again. I get why they fell for Jones and that they felt they couldn't wait another year for QB. But, it all feels reactionary and poorly planned. More like they took what the draft and circumstances gave them at QB. No like.

that's the DG way.

In comment 15134857 crick n NC said:

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In comment 15134829 Go Terps said: Quote: We're well past overnight, and I'm still not convinced they're even trying to adapt. Building around a running back, drafting an Eli clone, running Garrett's offense... I'm interested in assigning blame. We deserve better than Mara telling us each season how the arrow is pointing up, when it isn't. I'm not sure what is negative about wanting another Eli.

There's a lot that's negative about it:

1. Overdrafting Jones, who if we're being honest was more of a 3rd/4th round prospect

2. Once we drafted Jones, we didn't do him any favors in how we used him. The truth is though he might look and act like Eli, he doesn't play like Eli at all. What do we know about Jones?

Pros: Tough, big, good straight line speed, accurate on prescribed throws
Cons: No pocket presence, poor ball security, doesn't see the field well before or after the snap

That doesn't sound anything like Eli. If you want a comp for Jones, it's closer to Cam Newton...you don't want him sitting in the pocket, but he can do things for you with his legs and his arm if you make the read easy for him.

But we want another Eli. So what do we do? We hire Jason Garrett, whose offense made more sense in 2005, to be the offensive coordinator. So instead of playing to Jones's strengths, we're now showcasing his weaknesses. Instead of running him, getting him outside the pocket, and cutting the field down for him we are asking him to operate from the pocket and read the field like he's Eli.

3.A QB like Eli might be a dying/extinct breed. Is there a pure pocket passer in the Eli/Rivers/Brady mold succeeding in the NFL under the age of 30? I don't think there is. College football isn't producing pocket passers, and it's not producing offensive linemen capable of protecting pocket passers. You don't have to be Lamar Jackson to play QB in the NFL, but the ability to at least extend plays with your legs is now an essential trait. The immobile pocket passer is, at least for now, waving goodbye as the Brady generation leaves the league.

Clinging to the last few years of Eli, then trying to replace him with a clone, then trying to cram that square shaped clone into the round hole left by Eli...all are mistakes that have played an enormous role in the Giants sitting where they are.

We don't want another Eli. The Giants need to stop looking into their own past and start looking elsewhere at trends around the league to inform their decisions.

In comment 15134877 JonC said:

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I think by 2017 McAdoo was probably ready to move on from Eli. But, without a proper replacement player or even a plan to trigger it (Geno and Webb were not legit options) he panicked and forced Geno in there, it failed, the fans revolted and Mara took our side. The next mistake was they doubled down on Eli in 2018 and still had no QB on the roster to start the process. Then, it sure seems to me they were a bit desperate (as were fans) to secure Jones in 2019 ...

He predated Pedersen. If you are going to sideline management's most expensive asset, you had better have something way better in mind. McAdoo didn't because he's an idiot and got canned. Pedersen did the same thing and suffered the same fate. This is common sense. If you don't believe, go to work tomorrow and try it.

In comment 15134659 Britt in VA said:

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Shows you how much people disliked Manning and Coughlin and were ready to discredit them in any way possible. While we're at comparing the Coughlin 2015 team to the McAdoo 2016 team.... Wanna guess what the defensive ranks were for those two? 2015: 30th in the NFL 2016: 2nd in the NFL Ha, yeah, let's give McAdoo credit.

One must wonder what would have happened had the two heirs kept the entire coaching staff together and spent the 100 million on defensive players that they spent to prop up Otis as HC. Would they have still gotten buried in GB by McCarthy and Rodgers?

The Giants have a mobile QB ; the can run the RPO; he has no arm that could be considered NFL arm talent.

Eli was like the opposite of those. I guess they had the same coach and both shrig their shoulders after a throw?

In comment 15134938 HomerJones45 said:

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In comment 15134659 Britt in VA said: Quote: Shows you how much people disliked Manning and Coughlin and were ready to discredit them in any way possible. While we're at comparing the Coughlin 2015 team to the McAdoo 2016 team.... Wanna guess what the defensive ranks were for those two? 2015: 30th in the NFL 2016: 2nd in the NFL Ha, yeah, let's give McAdoo credit. One must wonder what would have happened had the two heirs kept the entire coaching staff together and spent the 100 million on defensive players that they spent to prop up Otis as HC. Would they have still gotten buried in GB by McCarthy and Rodgers?

We know the answer to that, don’t we Gene?

Actually the case can be made against the mobile QB. This whole mahomes Mcaddoo thing is just a solid case of recency bias. Out of the last 10 SBs only 2 have been won by mobile QBs. Only 2. It just so happens that the most recent one was won by a mobile QB.

It brings out the old criticism of mobile QBs....the strategy is not as effective in the post season. Of the 2 -- one is Mahomes who for all we know is just the recipient of excellent coaching as well as unique athletics and the other Russ Wilson. Despite plenty of chances he has come nowhere near the success of pocket passing Brady with several wins and appearances in the SB.

Think of all the disappointments in the post season by mobile QBs...L Jackson, Josh allen, Tannehill, A Rodgers.

In comment 15134914 Go Terps said:

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There's a lot that's negative about it: 1. Overdrafting Jones, who if we're being honest was more of a 3rd/4th round prospect 2. Once we drafted Jones, we didn't do him any favors in how we used him. The truth is though he might look and act like Eli, he doesn't play like Eli at all. What do we know about Jones? Pros: Tough, big, good straight line speed, accurate on prescribed throws Cons: No pocket presence, poor ball security, doesn't see the field well before or after the snap That doesn't sound anything like Eli. If you want a comp for Jones, it's closer to Cam Newton...you don't want him sitting in the pocket, but he can do things for you with his legs and his arm if you make the read easy for him. But we want another Eli. So what do we do? We hire Jason Garrett, whose offense made more sense in 2005, to be the offensive coordinator. So instead of playing to Jones's strengths, we're now showcasing his weaknesses. Instead of running him, getting him outside the pocket, and cutting the field down for him we are asking him to operate from the pocket and read the field like he's Eli. 3.A QB like Eli might be a dying/extinct breed. Is there a pure pocket passer in the Eli/Rivers/Brady mold succeeding in the NFL under the age of 30? I don't think there is. College football isn't producing pocket passers, and it's not producing offensive linemen capable of protecting pocket passers. You don't have to be Lamar Jackson to play QB in the NFL, but the ability to at least extend plays with your legs is now an essential trait. The immobile pocket passer is, at least for now, waving goodbye as the Brady generation leaves the league. Clinging to the last few years of Eli, then trying to replace him with a clone, then trying to cram that square shaped clone into the round hole left by Eli...all are mistakes that have played an enormous role in the Giants sitting where they are. We don't want another Eli. The Giants need to stop looking into their own past and start looking elsewhere at trends around the league to inform their decisions.

A really good post. I might quibble with DJ being a 3rd or 4th rounder, if NYG hadn't taken him, I think he would have gone higher than that, but there is a good chance he would have made it to round 2. Everything else is spot on.

The point about Eli and getting over him - and I think this is very important - is that it's pervading the thinking of people in the organization and the fans.

Daniel Jones. Tall clean-cut QB with a Cutcliffe relationship who attended a southern college. Like Eli. Check.

Daniel Jones had a poor sophomore season? So did Eli and that obviously turned out well, so Jones will be fine. [My comment: Eli did not have a poor sophomore season.]

It clouds perception and front office actions and directly led to the over drafting of Jones. (Who I see as a late 1st rd prospect, like Rex Grossman.)

In comment 15134784 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 15134762 JonC said: Quote: In comment 15134753 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: I don't think TC was ever great at clock management. I think his weaknesses became more glaring in 2015. It's also difficult to keep a coach who has missed the playoffs four years in a row. He also took more risks on offense in 2015, probably in response to trying to keep the defense off the field. Exactly. That's more in line with reality than the senile old coot narrative that took hold.

Let's be honest. Coughlin coached well for some pretty good teams and had a nice consistent run there for a bit, but not sure he should ever be labeled with actually ever having a "fastball". He had his flaws too, particularly as Brett noted above with clock management.

And the statement he had to take some risks in 2015 because of the leaky defense is spot on. Unfortunately for him it seemed like every risk he took went against him making it seem the game had passed him by. In some instances it probably was.

He got the boot because the team went into a fairly steady decline for 4 straight years after that Super Bowl. Plenty of blame could have been tossed around as to why but Coughlin was the one who had to take it on the chin. Not sure it really was that big of a deal as it was getting close to being that time anyway with him. It just wound up badly for us because McAdoo wasn't obviously head coaching material.

Maybe McAdoo should have been given the head scouting job with this keen eye he had for future HOF QBs...

.

retirement after the 2013 season. At the time, I thought the argument for this change was reasonable, but the more time passes, the more it looks like the first move of an incompetent ownership group: unable to process information objectively, playing favorites, and unable to solve problems.

In comment 15134987 cosmicj said:

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retirement after the 2013 season. At the time, I thought the argument for this change was reasonable, but the more time passes, the more it looks like the first move of an incompetent ownership group: unable to process information objectively, playing favorites, and unable to solve problems.

Cosmic - Can't recall the road leading up to Gilbride's departure. Was it that the OL was turning into a disaster hindering Eli & Offense so Coughlin gave up Gilbride as the sacrificial lamb? Can't remember.

I'm sure it had to do with the fall of the Giants from contention in 2013. Scapegoating. Gilbride was one of the best OCs the franchise has ever had and he wanted to keep coaching.

the KG decision factors.

In comment 15134994 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In comment 15134987 cosmicj said: Quote: retirement after the 2013 season. At the time, I thought the argument for this change was reasonable, but the more time passes, the more it looks like the first move of an incompetent ownership group: unable to process information objectively, playing favorites, and unable to solve problems. Cosmic - Can't recall the road leading up to Gilbride's departure. Was it that the OL was turning into a disaster hindering Eli & Offense so Coughlin gave up Gilbride as the sacrificial lamb? Can't remember.

QUote from John Mara's end of season presser: "Why did it take so long to realize Jernigan could play?"

Spoiler, he couldn't. It was then that you knew that Reese had Mara's ear over the Coaching staff, IMO.

Coughlin's days were over. He just didn't have that discipline any more and players were underachieving.

I can remember Eli working one of his late 4th Qtr go ahead drives in games to go up late in the game; only for the opposing teams to come marching right back down the field; I still remember Eli watching it from the sidelines and mouthing "this is bullshit". McAdoo did work on the 4 minute drill which led them to win some close games but I suspect it is more of his 100 million dollar defense more than anything.

He basically, at that point in time, said it was a coaching problem and there were talented players on the roster.

Gilbride "retired" 3 days later.

Good take above on Jones.

In comment 15135017 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

QUote from John Mara's end of season presser: "Why did it take so long to realize Jernigan could play?" Spoiler, he couldn't. It was then that you knew that Reese had Mara's ear over the Coaching staff, IMO.

Ha. That was indeed an uncalled for comment by Mara. And clearly showed he was getting unnerved with the losing and talent on field disappearing.

In comment 15135020 Britt in VA said:

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He basically, at that point in time, said it was a coaching problem and there were talented players on the roster. Gilbride "retired" 3 days later.

I think the argument was that KG's passing scheme was too complicated for young players to learn. While there is some truth to that, the fact that they neglected an OL that was running on fumes in 2011 was an indictment of the entire organization.

The offensive line first showed signs of cracking in 2008 in Cleveland - that was a warning sign of what was to come at the hands of Broderick Bunkley and Mike Patterson in the playoff game.

If Eli is going to be your QB and Gilbride is going to be the OC you need to be strong on the offensive line. And they never were again. The 2011 title by an OK team that got hot papered that over.

Concurrently the league was changing around the Giants and they failed to adapt. They are still failing to adapt. Eli's shadow looms enormous over the whole organization.

In comment 15135034 Section331 said:

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In comment 15135020 Britt in VA said: Quote: He basically, at that point in time, said it was a coaching problem and there were talented players on the roster. Gilbride "retired" 3 days later. I think the argument was that KG's passing scheme was too complicated for young players to learn. While there is some truth to that, the fact that they neglected an OL that was running on fumes in 2011 was an indictment of the entire organization.

Yes. Running of fumes in 2011, and now after a decade of adding/subtracting a ton of guys from the OL we still wonder if it will be stabilized.

In comment 15134976 cosmicj said:

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The point about Eli and getting over him - and I think this is very important - is that it's pervading the thinking of people in the organization and the fans. Daniel Jones. Tall clean-cut QB with a Cutcliffe relationship who attended a southern college. Like Eli. Check. Daniel Jones had a poor sophomore season? So did Eli and that obviously turned out well, so Jones will be fine. [My comment: Eli did not have a poor sophomore season.] It clouds perception and front office actions and directly led to the over drafting of Jones. (Who I see as a late 1st rd prospect, like Rex Grossman.)

Has there ever been a time where it's been this easy to predict what this organization is going to do?

-- Reese gets fired. It takes all of a NY minute to figure it's going to be Gettleman once Accorsi is brought in to "consult".
-- Gettleman, who was here when Accorsi selected Eli, says he believes Eli can still playing winning football.
-- Shurmur is hired. The OC who just resuscitated Keenum in Minnesota. Like predicting the sun will rise in the east, he's on-board with Eli.
-- 2018 draft. Eli needs a big toy. Gettleman is firmly entrenched in the "Giants "Way" and old school football. Of course the pick has to be Barkley...right? Lay-up.
-- Eli is finally considered flat-lined. So it's time to find a QB. Who a number of key connections to the Mannings? Why it's Daniel Jones, QB, Duke. And with the 6th pick int he 2019 draft, Jints Central selects "Aw-shucks", part two.

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Like predicting the sun will rise in the east, he's on-board with Eli.

too complicated? Yet Nicks (drafted 2009) and Cruz (2010) mastered it enough to lead a Super Bowl in 2011 both performing at a Pro Bowl level.

No room for pocket passer? Certainly the ability to shift in the pocket is important but you do not have to have a running QB. Mahomes is more shifty in the pocket than runner imo.

The fact remains. The Giants drafted very poorly for many years and had some bad injuries to stars. TC and Eli's demise were caused by the lack of overall talent and physical presence on the lines.

Get smarter players then.

That offense, when humming along, was nearly unstoppable.

In comment 15135147 Britt in VA said:

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Get smarter players then. That offense, when humming along, was nearly unstoppable.

I wasn't making an indictment of KG at all, he was one of the best offensive minds this org has ever had, but his (and TC's) scheme was very complex, with adjustments on the fly depending on what the defense was doing. QB and WR's had to be on the same page.

And yes, Reese didn't draft the kind of guys who could take to it, after Nicks and Cruz. Those 2 were workaholics, something Jernigan and Reuben Randle were rarely accused of.

though.

The REAL problem was that Gilbride and Coughlin's offense required 5 and 7 step drops, and time for the receivers to get downfield. By 2013, Manning couldn't even get get to three steps before being smothered. Guys were getting there so fast he was getting tackled mid-playaction.

Gilbrides offense required an offensive line capable of the QB getting to the top of his dropback. Was never fixed. Still not quite fixed. But that's where it went downhill.

If you believe Gilbride, he went to management in 2009 asking for help there.

but I know the Giants, and Manning, were near the bottom (if not rock bottom) of that list pretty regularly post 2012.

Was to highlight the accomplishments of the Coughlin/Manning era. The end result being two Super Bowl titles is incredible as we see how difficult it is having watched the Packers, Saints & Seahawks fall short year after year.

There seems to be two schools of thought with Giant fans:

1. Look at all the success they’ve had - 5 Super Bowl appearances since 1986 and the only team in the NFL to win a championship in four consecutive decades.

2. Disappointment in the lack of consistent winning. The Giants have only won 12 games twice since 2000 and have never won more than 12 games in the regular season since 2000.

You can’t say either without referencing the other. So, if the Giants are criticized for lack of dominant regular seasons, it’s only fair to reference the Super Bowl success as well. Both are facts and fair to point out.

The Giants are a unique case as a franchise with regards to the above.

All fair points. Given those points I think Mara should be asking, "Is hoping for a quarterback with Epcot-sized balls like Eli a sustainable model?"

It is not. And frankly the comps of Jones to Eli are bullshit and insulting to Eli.

Eli ain't walking through that door.

Especially after 15 years.

I think we look at Brees to Rivers, Favre to Rodgers, and even Peyton to Luck and think with a little foresight it is easy.

There was a LONG gap between Simms/Parcells and Coughlin/Eli.

They are golden eras for a reason.

.

The Giants could win a Super Bowl in 2029 and keep that decade streak going. I’m not excited by that factoid.

What I take from the 2 championships is Accorsi/Reese/Gettleman:

- Got the head coach hire right on the 1st try
- Cut ties with the veteran QB immediately and took a big risk to get their guy
- Had a near perfect batting average with their big dollar free agents for several years
- Added 2-3 bona fide starters or contributors in several consecutive drafts
- Endured many injuries and big egos along the way

In essence, it was hard and they had to get most of it right every year. None of this “the rebuild really started 2 years later” shit.

I think people underestimate-myself included-how F'ing hard it is to win a Super Bowl. Imagine being a Packers fan since '92...you've had two HOF QBs and have the same # of titles as Eli.

with whatever came between. Literally, I’d make that deal right now.

In comment 15135229 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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I think people underestimate-myself included-how F'ing hard it is to win a Super Bowl. Imagine being a Packers fan since '92...you've had two HOF QBs and have the same # of titles as Eli.

29 years straight of HOF QB play and counting! If that doesn’t hammer it home, nothing will.

In comment 15135169 Sean said:

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1. Look at all the success they’ve had - 5 Super Bowl appearances since 1986 and the only team in the NFL to win a championship in four consecutive decades.

From '84 to '91, the Giants were great. It was their Camelot period. Those SBs were expected. And I feel to this day they likely should have had three.

The most recent two? Nothing great about those teams. They were good teams who caught lightening in the bottle and rode the magic carpet. Don't get me wrong. You certainly take them, but the Camelot era wins, albeit I was very young, were the dividend of a well built organization able to consistently compete against other great organizations at the time (9ers, Washington, Raiders, Denver).

That's what I long for...

It's amazing. And it makes TB12 going for 7 Super Bowls even more UFB...

It SO hard-unless you're Brady obviously, Haha-to win it all. That's why I love those '07 & '11 teams so much. You gotta catch breaks & capitalize on them.

Another factor for me is the human element of keeping Eli. It was said above, but releasing Eli after 2018 to go 7-9 with Teddy Bridgewater is not appealing to me. I like the fact that Eli played his entire career as a Giant.

Aside from the Pats & Steelers, no one else in the current NFL has dealt with moving off a 2x SB QB. The Pats did it with Brady (or maybe he left them) & the Steelers are sticking with Ben who looks to be shot. The Saints stuck with Brees despite him not being able to throw the ball down the field, and I’m sure if he wanted to play next year, he’d be the starter next year.

The point is, it’s not easy. Add in all the fan backlash in 2017 and it makes it even harder.

I do think it is very fair to criticize the moves made surrounding Eli, even in 2018. I also think he was always a lousy fit for the west coast offense.

Eli is behind us now, and the franchise needs to start winning this year.

They're incompetent and archaic. They're going on a decade of it.

Don't give these guys a pass. The league is designed to prop up bad teams, and it's designed to promote scoring. They still suck and can't score.

This isn't bad luck.

Sean, I'm with you on Eli. I'm glad he never played for say the Bears or Jags or whatever. He's my favorite Giants ever-probably Tuck a close second-& it means something to me he played his entire career in Jersey so I really can't get on Mara for being sentimental about Eli because I am too.

Aren't you high on JJ? I thought you were. I agree that we really need to turn things around STAT. That's why I would have let Gettleman go, but that ain't my call.

In comment 15135261 Go Terps said:

Quote:

They're incompetent and archaic. They're going on a decade of it. Don't give these guys a pass. The league is designed to prop up bad teams, and it's designed to promote scoring. They still suck and can't score. This isn't bad luck.

I’m giving Judge a chance here. If you’ve listened to GM Shuffle the last few episodes, you’ve heard Lombardi reference this:

There are two kinds of franchise thinking - 1. The organization makes the head coach (he mentioned this when talking about the Eagles & Packers, not ideal). 2. The head coach makes the organization (we say this with Parcells & Coughlin and now hopefully Judge).

The head coach is the most important aspect of an organization.

In comment 15135017 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 15134994 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: In comment 15134987 cosmicj said: Quote: retirement after the 2013 season. At the time, I thought the argument for this change was reasonable, but the more time passes, the more it looks like the first move of an incompetent ownership group: unable to process information objectively, playing favorites, and unable to solve problems. Cosmic - Can't recall the road leading up to Gilbride's departure. Was it that the OL was turning into a disaster hindering Eli & Offense so Coughlin gave up Gilbride as the sacrificial lamb? Can't remember. QUote from John Mara's end of season presser: "Why did it take so long to realize Jernigan could play?" Spoiler, he couldn't. It was then that you knew that Reese had Mara's ear over the Coaching staff, IMO.

You know Britt. You have been blaming Reese for years. Its been pointed out with direct quotes the Coughlin agreed with every decision. Direct quote from Mara himself.

It also been pointed out that all draft picks were made by committee. So what is it? When you talk about the glory years, you ever rarely me tin Reese except that he ruined the 2nd half of Eli's career..

It was an organizational failure. All hands on deck. Why do continually push this obvious false narrative?

In comment 15134914 Go Terps said:

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In comment 15134857 crick n NC said: Quote: In comment 15134829 Go Terps said: Quote: We're well past overnight, and I'm still not convinced they're even trying to adapt. Building around a running back, drafting an Eli clone, running Garrett's offense... I'm interested in assigning blame. We deserve better than Mara telling us each season how the arrow is pointing up, when it isn't. I'm not sure what is negative about wanting another Eli. There's a lot that's negative about it: 1. Overdrafting Jones, who if we're being honest was more of a 3rd/4th round prospect 2. Once we drafted Jones, we didn't do him any favors in how we used him. The truth is though he might look and act like Eli, he doesn't play like Eli at all. What do we know about Jones? Pros: Tough, big, good straight line speed, accurate on prescribed throws Cons: No pocket presence, poor ball security, doesn't see the field well before or after the snap That doesn't sound anything like Eli. If you want a comp for Jones, it's closer to Cam Newton...you don't want him sitting in the pocket, but he can do things for you with his legs and his arm if you make the read easy for him. But we want another Eli. So what do we do? We hire Jason Garrett, whose offense made more sense in 2005, to be the offensive coordinator. So instead of playing to Jones's strengths, we're now showcasing his weaknesses. Instead of running him, getting him outside the pocket, and cutting the field down for him we are asking him to operate from the pocket and read the field like he's Eli. 3.A QB like Eli might be a dying/extinct breed. Is there a pure pocket passer in the Eli/Rivers/Brady mold succeeding in the NFL under the age of 30? I don't think there is. College football isn't producing pocket passers, and it's not producing offensive linemen capable of protecting pocket passers. You don't have to be Lamar Jackson to play QB in the NFL, but the ability to at least extend plays with your legs is now an essential trait. The immobile pocket passer is, at least for now, waving goodbye as the Brady generation leaves the league. Clinging to the last few years of Eli, then trying to replace him with a clone, then trying to cram that square shaped clone into the round hole left by Eli...all are mistakes that have played an enormous role in the Giants sitting where they are. We don't want another Eli. The Giants need to stop looking into their own past and start looking elsewhere at trends around the league to inform their decisions.

Over-drafting a player because you want a player from the past would be foolish. But, you and I don't agree with the value of Jones, there really isn't a need to go into that.

I also don't agree with your view on Garrett's offense or why he was hired here.

Lastly Jones is a developing qb who I think deserves a decent opportunity to thrive. We hear the roster sucks, we hear the scheme sucks, wouldn't be surrounded by that hurt a Qb's chance to develop?

In comment 15135264 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

Aren't you high on JJ? I thought you were. I agree that we really need to turn things around STAT. That's why I would have let Gettleman go, but that ain't my call.

Yeah I like him a lot. But I think he's saddled with albatrosses in Mara, Gettleman, Garrett, and Jones. I've been hoping they would get out of the way and let Judge run the show. I'm not optimistic that's happening.

In comment 15135229 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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I think people underestimate-myself included-how F'ing hard it is to win a Super Bowl. Imagine being a Packers fan since '92...you've had two HOF QBs and have the same # of titles as Eli.

This is why its crazy talk to think there is blame because the Giants should have won 3..

I was the first person to say In Reese We Trust every draft. Until guys like Gilbride started to get pushed out, and the blame started to shift towards Manning and Coughlin despit the fact that the roster deficiencies became more and more obvious. Then Reese started talking about the QB being “skittish”, and terms like “basketball on grass” which indicated that the roster was fine, and it was the QB that couldn’t play. That rubbed me the wrong way. Then Coughlin was fired and Reese stayed on.

At some point, the committee you mentioned soured and were no longer seeing eye to eye. I think it was 2013 and said why.

Coughlin was fired. So then Reese was tasked with fixing the roster “Jerry knows this is on him (John Mara at Coughlin’s retirement conference). Reese still failed.

I loved Reese as a GM. I loved it all the way up until it started to fracture and the blame shifting began.

In comment 15135230 Britt in VA said:

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with whatever came between. Literally, I’d make that deal right now.

Naah, they can do better than that.

Look for another NY Giant Super Bowl win 3 years after Gettleman retires. That should be sooner than 2029.

In comment 15135292 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

I was the first person to say In Reese We Trust every draft. Until guys like Gilbride started to get pushed out, and the blame started to shift towards Manning and Coughlin despit the fact that the roster deficiencies became more and more obvious. Then Reese started talking about the QB being “skittish”, and terms like “basketball on grass” which indicated that the roster was fine, and it was the QB that couldn’t play. That rubbed me the wrong way. Then Coughlin was fired and Reese stayed on. At some point, the committee you mentioned soured and were no longer seeing eye to eye. I think it was 2013 and said why. Coughlin was fired. So then Reese was tasked with fixing the roster “Jerry knows this is on him (John Mara at Coughlin’s retirement conference). Reese still failed. I loved Reese as a GM. I loved it all the way up until it started to fracture and the blame shifting began.

So basically you took Reese's quotes personal? Wow, I see why people still don't like Tiki.

And who was shifting blame?. Reese was getting blamed for years when the organization was as a whole was making decisions. I think it was also mention that Chris Mara was inserted into the operation decisions..

So. Now I understand your reasoning. I don't agree at all, but ok..

I think you’d be hard pressed to find any quotes in reverse, meaning Manning or Coughlin complaining about the roster publicly.

I think Jones, like any player, only deserves what he's earned. He's as much of a burden on the offense as anyone else. Like I've said before, the layers of suck on offense are multiple and layered.

Jones doesn't deserve anything. The only thing keeping him on the field is where he was drafted. Since then, he hasn't earned the right to be the starter unquestioned. If he were a UDFA, would he be starting in 2021? Nope. We'd be looking at drafting a quarterback.

It's on Jones to kick the door down and earn the job. But that's not how the Giants operate, and we see the results.

It felt to me that he was throwing others under the bus.

.

In comment 15135304 Go Terps said:

Quote:

I think Jones, like any player, only deserves what he's earned. He's as much of a burden on the offense as anyone else. Like I've said before, the layers of suck on offense are multiple and layered. Jones doesn't deserve anything. The only thing keeping him on the field is where he was drafted. Since then, he hasn't earned the right to be the starter unquestioned. If he were a UDFA, would he be starting in 2021? Nope. We'd be looking at drafting a quarterback. It's on Jones to kick the door down and earn the job. But that's not how the Giants operate, and we see the results.

Terps, perhaps my term, "deserves" was inaccurate. I would like to rephrase, and say, it may be wise to see Jones under better circumstances. If he plays better, but not want the team wants necessarily for the future, his value can increase. Or perhaps his growth combined with better circumstances shows that he would be a guy to build the offense around.

I don't have any issue with your doubts about Jones, doubts about Jones are fair to a certain extent. You and I are farthest apart I think on how we view surrounding circumstances and how they may impact the qb position.

Given what we've heard from Mara and Gettleman in the past, any performance that results in Jones's value increasing is just going to encourage the Giants to keep him long term.

Here's a realistic scenario - Jones throws 25 TDs and 14 INT with 7.1 YPA, the Giants score 21 points/game, and they finish the season 7-9/8-8. That's an improvement over what happened in 2020, but it's still well below what is needed to compete with the likes of KC, Buffalo, Green Bay, Baltimore, etc.

What is likely to happen? I'd expect to hear the same story we get from Mara/Gettleman each year - "We improved", "The arrow is pointing up", etc. And we'll all be getting into the same arguments here that we've been in each of the past 3 years.

Jones is going to improve next year. He HAS to, because it's impossible to do worse than he did in 2020. He isn't going to throw 11 TDs again. But just because he improves doesn't mean he is good enough, or will be good enough, to QB this team to title contention.

Jones can improve and still be terrible in 2021. 2020 was that bad. Will Mara/Gettleman make that distinction?

could also improve to where he's a better than average starter next year with the arrow pointing up for future seasons.

Wil YOU make that distinction?

In comment 15135276 crick n NC said:

Quote:

Over-drafting a player because you want a player from the past would be foolish. But, you and I don't agree with the value of Jones, there really isn't a need to go into that. I also don't agree with your view on Garrett's offense or why he was hired here. Lastly Jones is a developing qb who I think deserves a decent opportunity to thrive. We hear the roster sucks, we hear the scheme sucks, wouldn't be surrounded by that hurt a Qb's chance to develop?

This is what baffles me about the status quo defenders. DG and Garrett are doing great jobs, but Jones is stuck with a shitty roster and a poor scheme.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In comment 15135692 Section331 said:

Quote:

In comment 15135276 crick n NC said: Quote: Over-drafting a player because you want a player from the past would be foolish. But, you and I don't agree with the value of Jones, there really isn't a need to go into that. I also don't agree with your view on Garrett's offense or why he was hired here. Lastly Jones is a developing qb who I think deserves a decent opportunity to thrive. We hear the roster sucks, we hear the scheme sucks, wouldn't be surrounded by that hurt a Qb's chance to develop? This is what baffles me about the status quo defenders. DG and Garrett are doing great jobs, but Jones is stuck with a shitty roster and a poor scheme. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You won't see that reconciled by anyone here. I've asked the question myself.

In comment 15135692 Section331 said:

Quote:

In comment 15135276 crick n NC said: Quote: Over-drafting a player because you want a player from the past would be foolish. But, you and I don't agree with the value of Jones, there really isn't a need to go into that. I also don't agree with your view on Garrett's offense or why he was hired here. Lastly Jones is a developing qb who I think deserves a decent opportunity to thrive. We hear the roster sucks, we hear the scheme sucks, wouldn't be surrounded by that hurt a Qb's chance to develop? This is what baffles me about the status quo defenders. DG and Garrett are doing great jobs, but Jones is stuck with a shitty roster and a poor scheme. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Am I a status quo defender?

We certainly can't have our arguments both ways unless we want to disqualify our views as honest.

that it wouldn’t have made a difference in Jones’ AND THE TEAM’S play with two good wheels. They KNOW what more qualified evaluators REALLY think of Jones after the COACH-SPEAK. They KNOW after 25 or so games that they’ve seen enough TO KNOW..

I think DJ will eventually be fine to lead us towards another SB run..But I don’t KNOW, as I’m not as observant as those who KNOW..

In comment 15135484 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Given what we've heard from Mara and Gettleman in the past, any performance that results in Jones's value increasing is just going to encourage the Giants to keep him long term. Here's a realistic scenario - Jones throws 25 TDs and 14 INT with 7.1 YPA, the Giants score 21 points/game, and they finish the season 7-9/8-8. That's an improvement over what happened in 2020, but it's still well below what is needed to compete with the likes of KC, Buffalo, Green Bay, Baltimore, etc. What is likely to happen? I'd expect to hear the same story we get from Mara/Gettleman each year - "We improved", "The arrow is pointing up", etc. And we'll all be getting into the same arguments here that we've been in each of the past 3 years. Jones is going to improve next year. He HAS to, because it's impossible to do worse than he did in 2020. He isn't going to throw 11 TDs again. But just because he improves doesn't mean he is good enough, or will be good enough, to QB this team to title contention. Jones can improve and still be terrible in 2021. 2020 was that bad. Will Mara/Gettleman make that distinction?

I think next year is going to give us close to a pretty definitive answer on whether the 'DG core' can win a championship. I don't think it can, but next year will have Jones in year three, Barkley back, his OL won't be full of rookies, etc.

I think next year has to be a 9+ win season for DG to keep his job again.

What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason.

In comment 15135723 crick n NC said:

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What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason.

Fair enough, but you did say you liked Garrett while acknowledging that the scheme sucked. My point stands.

In comment 15135740 Section331 said:

Quote:

In comment 15135723 crick n NC said: Quote: What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason. Fair enough, but you did say you liked Garrett while acknowledging that the scheme sucked. My point stands.

I didn't say the scheme sucked. I don't consider myself qualified to make that statement.

In comment 15135740 Section331 said:

Quote:

In comment 15135723 crick n NC said: Quote: What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason. Fair enough, but you did say you liked Garrett while acknowledging that the scheme sucked. My point stands.

We’ll see of course, but I believe if SB is pretty much back to himself and the receiving corps is fortified/improved, Garrett will be less hamstrung..I think he had to play to his overall talent which from a fan’s POV, could/can be quite frustrating i’m sure

In comment 15135723 crick n NC said:

Quote:

What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason.

THIS IS THE HEART OF THE MATTER. Right here.

There are 53 players on an active roster. I don't know the exact number, but I believe less than 5 are left from the Jerry Reese era. Tomlinson, Sheppard, Engram, and...? That it?

Not only did they have to replace starters, they had to replace backups. And third stringers. Essentially, they have churned the entire 53 man roster in three years and churned it again when it wasn't working.

I have to admit, I didn't realize it was THAT bad in 2018. YOU CAN BLAME GETTLEMAN FOR NOT REALIZING IT EITHER! OKAY! I CONCEDE THAT POINT! Now, that said, 8 games into the season, they realized it and churned the whole thing and started the rebuild.

There was also a defensive philosophy change in there to go from a base 4-3 to a 3-4. That requires even more personnel change.

How many players can, and should, a team require per offseason? There is a finite amount of resources. You can only plug so many holes/deficiencies in per single offseason.

We have started the process of building from the inside out. With the exception of Tomlinson, the entire offensive and defensive lines needed to be replaced.

It's cliche, but Rome wasn't built in a day. The defense took a major step forward and we saw some results this year. If the offense can take a similar step forward next year to match the defense, we will finally be in a decent place going forward.

Yes, teams are built to go from worst to first in the NFL. That is the age of parity. But what faced Mara and Gettleman in 2018 was nearly equal to starting an expansion team. They had to build an entire roster. It was, and is, a big job. AGAIN, I concede they failed to recognize the scope. I understand people's frustration with that. But that is where we are now.

we've added anchors at all three levels of the defense.

Drafted Dexter Lawrence
Traded a 3rd and 5th for Leonard Williams.
Signed a tackling machine at LB in Blake Martinez
Signed an All Pro CB in Bradburry.
Traded for Peppers who played like an All Pro this season
Signed Logan Ryan, great veteran player and leader
Drafted Xavier McKinney

That's acquiring a lot of talent in two offseasons, regardless of what happened with other signings/draft picks! Can we acknowledge that?

It hasn't come together yet but you can see it forming and beginning to gel, both on paper and on the field.

Offense next. We need a WR and TE desperately. If we can see it, they can.

This is not plug and play.

between draft picks and free agency. It takes time.

Other organizations were in similar (or worse) situations in 2018, and are faring much better than the Giants are.

They've done terribly.

Also, success and failure in the NFL isn't a neat curve. The Giants are as likely to go 3-13 next year as 9-7.

but then you don't give him any credit when he does.

I want a guy that can see his mistakes and move on from them, not a guy who stubbornly sticks with it and wait for something else to fix it.

And no, Daniel Jones is not an example of that. Yet.

Quote:

It's cliche, but Rome wasn't built in a day. The defense took a major step forward and we saw some results this year. If the offense can take a similar step forward next year to match the defense, we will finally be in a decent place going forward.

2013: Offense is broken, let’s fix it by bringing in McAdoo and drafting Beckham. Defense then suffers.

2015: The defense stinks, let’s spend $100m on that side of the ball. Offense then suffers.

2016: The defense is great, now we just need to focus on the offense.

2017: Defense takes a step back, the entire team falls off.

Sound familiar? The Giants have been overly focused on one side of the ball for almost a decade. Why should we believe the defense will perform at the same level next year. Just bring in the best players.

In comment 15135796 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Other organizations were in similar (or worse) situations in 2018, and are faring much better than the Giants are. They've done terribly. Also, success and failure in the NFL isn't a neat curve. The Giants are as likely to go 3-13 next year as 9-7.

Who are we talking about? Cleveland? Arizona?

This is going to be a fundamental disagreement here, but I'm still going to say it.

Those franchises are historically inept franchises. They have poor seasons like that ALL THE TIME, beyond their players. Those teams/rosters often had HOF players and just still stunk for whatever reason. Joe Thomas, LT, the most important position on the team arguably, HOF LT. Loser career. Larry Fitzgerald. They had decent rosters in a lot of cases. Those franchises are the teams that the NFL actually created parity for in the first place, and some still struggle to beat their way out of a paper bag. So they hit once in a while. But they always return back to their line. Time will tell if Arizona and Cleveland remain consistent winners.

So I will argue that despite the record, the New York Giants did not start at the same place as those other teams.

You will disagree with that, and will point to the record as being the same. But that's where I'm coming from so we'll just agree to disagree on that.

In comment 15135798 Sean said:

Quote:

Quote: It's cliche, but Rome wasn't built in a day. The defense took a major step forward and we saw some results this year. If the offense can take a similar step forward next year to match the defense, we will finally be in a decent place going forward. 2013: Offense is broken, let’s fix it by bringing in McAdoo and drafting Beckham. Defense then suffers. 2015: The defense stinks, let’s spend $100m on that side of the ball. Offense then suffers. 2016: The defense is great, now we just need to focus on the offense. 2017: Defense takes a step back, the entire team falls off. Sound familiar? The Giants have been overly focused on one side of the ball for almost a decade. Why should we believe the defense will perform at the same level next year. Just bring in the best players.

The trenches, Sean. The core of the team. That was the failure in all of those seasons you mentioned. Only in the past three years have we seen a true commitment to rebuilding those and building from the inside out.

of having a franchise QB with consistency and stability.

It is a hard transition. A lot of things that had been in place for ten years or more fell apart or had to be blown up.

Teams like Cleveland and Arizona go through that process every other year.

You sound like you're trying to convince yourself.

.

In comment 15135723 crick n NC said:

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What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason.

So is 15-33 "within reason"?

I believe the NFL is about scoring points and passing the ball. With Garrett and Jones leading the charge there I think this is probably a 6 win team again in 2021. That's what I believe.

In comment 15135839 Go Terps said:

Quote:

I believe the NFL is about scoring points and passing the ball. With Garrett and Jones leading the charge there I think this is probably a 6 win team again in 2021. That's what I believe.

But there are teams that do that well that don't translate to much other than empty stats. Didn't Aaron Rodgers just show us that yet again? You can throw for a million yards and a million TD's and no INT's and it only gets you but so far when it's all said and done and the smoke settles.

Let's look at Justin Herbert for a second because he has been a hot topic here this offseason. Why do people have such confidence that Justin Herbert turning the Chargers around? He scored a lot of points. He passed the ball a lot. 31 TD's to 10 INT's. Awesome. Looks like the real deal. Great player. Agree. Where did it get the Chargers? 7-9? Why are the Chargers going to turn it around NOW? They bungled Drew Brees. They couldn't get it done with Phil Rivers... They just fired yet another coach. They've been through how many GM's in the past 10 years? BUT THIS TIME, this time is going to be different? Why? Why is Justin Herbert any different than the guys of the past 20 years for the Chargers?

The game is a lot more complicated than just getting QB that can throw and score a lot of points.

What???

at the end of the day. Whatever you want to call it.

For whatever reason, his arm and scoring a lot of points can't get them over the hump.

Is that more clear?

In comment 15135692 Section331 said:

Quote:

In comment 15135276 crick n NC said: Quote: Over-drafting a player because you want a player from the past would be foolish. But, you and I don't agree with the value of Jones, there really isn't a need to go into that. I also don't agree with your view on Garrett's offense or why he was hired here. Lastly Jones is a developing qb who I think deserves a decent opportunity to thrive. We hear the roster sucks, we hear the scheme sucks, wouldn't be surrounded by that hurt a Qb's chance to develop? This is what baffles me about the status quo defenders. DG and Garrett are doing great jobs, but Jones is stuck with a shitty roster and a poor scheme. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Outside of a few nutjobs, doubt there are really that many people stating Gettleman is doing a great job. While there is a wide range of thought on his performance, Gettleman defenders will tread carefully when supporting him for obvious reasons.

Some will stay at a pretty high level like suggesting not all GMs bat a thousand, or state the draft is a crapshoot for everybody, or just blame how Reese left the roster a shambles.

Others will get into more details and try to pivot the discussion on bad/questionable moves. Some examples include suggesting the Solder deal had to happen to fix the OL, as if he was the only available Tackle on the face of the earth; or that DG didn't have anybody to trade down with regarding the #2 overall pick; or that Mara forced him to stick with Eli cascading to a series of related issues. This group usually attempts to move the playing field to a reset when Daniel Jones started playing or maybe even just 2020 where they can point to some favorable offseasonmoves and find some safe-haven to defend.

And then there is another smaller group that just goes all-in with the defense. They usually lead by attacking the poster first with anything and everything. Then they gradually slow down a bit and flip the conversation to make you suggest what would have been the "better" move or direction to take on something so they can attack your thinking and redirect the whole conversation to discrediting your opinion versus DG. At some point, this group ends their defense with a profanity-laced summary of the argument, throw in a few exaggerations for effect, and exit stage left.

In comment 15135868 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In comment 15135692 Section331 said: Quote: In comment 15135276 crick n NC said: Quote: Over-drafting a player because you want a player from the past would be foolish. But, you and I don't agree with the value of Jones, there really isn't a need to go into that. I also don't agree with your view on Garrett's offense or why he was hired here. Lastly Jones is a developing qb who I think deserves a decent opportunity to thrive. We hear the roster sucks, we hear the scheme sucks, wouldn't be surrounded by that hurt a Qb's chance to develop? This is what baffles me about the status quo defenders. DG and Garrett are doing great jobs, but Jones is stuck with a shitty roster and a poor scheme. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Outside of a few nutjobs, doubt there are really that many people stating Gettleman is doing a great job. While there is a wide range of thought on his performance, Gettleman defenders will tread carefully when supporting him for obvious reasons. Some will stay at a pretty high level like suggesting not all GMs bat a thousand, or state the draft is a crapshoot for everybody, or just blame how Reese left the roster a shambles. Others will get into more details and try to pivot the discussion on bad/questionable moves. Some examples include suggesting the Solder deal had to happen to fix the OL, as if he was the only available Tackle on the face of the earth; or that DG didn't have anybody to trade down with regarding the #2 overall pick; or that Mara forced him to stick with Eli cascading to a series of related issues. This group usually attempts to move the playing field to a reset when Daniel Jones started playing or maybe even just 2020 where they can point to some favorable offseasonmoves and find some safe-haven to defend. And then there is another smaller group that just goes all-in with the defense. They usually lead by attacking the poster first with anything and everything. Then they gradually slow down a bit and flip the conversation to make you suggest what would have been the "better" move or direction to take on something so they can attack your thinking and redirect the whole conversation to discrediting your opinion versus DG. At some point, this group ends their defense with a profanity-laced summary of the argument, throw in a few exaggerations for effect, and exit stage left.

Now do the Gettleman Hater's M.O.

I'd love to hear it. Same terms as above.

In comment 15135857 Britt in VA said:

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at the end of the day. Whatever you want to call it. For whatever reason, his arm and scoring a lot of points can't get them over the hump. Is that more clear?

Rodgers has been in the NFCC each of the last two years. If that's empty, then what is the Giants' 11-21 record over that span? Hyper-empty?

How can you rationalize that what the Giants are doing is working, but what Green Bay is doing with Aaron Rodgers is not?

of choosing a couple teams on the upswing each season to hold up as models, is that, just like declaring with certainty what a player is going to be like after two years, those up and coming teams often crash and burn back to the basement.

Remember how we heard the Jaguars were building their team well? Young squad with a tough D that is well positioned for years of success. One win this year.

Cleveland and Arizona seem to be the flavor of the month frequently. Heck, we were regaled this season about how Arizona is doing things the right way. How did they do in the playoffs? Oh, that's right. Same with the Raiders. They beat the Chiefs and the board explodes in optimism.

Here's the thing I don't get - some of the same people trumpeting those teams for doing things right, lament that the Giants making the playoffs this season would be a travesty.

There's not a lot of consistency in argumentation. I would bet that the Giants will get another SB win before the Raiders, Cards or Browns.

- 15-33 overall record
- 6-10 in the worst division of NFL history
- Picked at top of the draft three years running and yet there are holes all over the roster

Is there more?

In comment 15135887 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

- 15-33 overall record - 6-10 in the worst division of NFL history - Picked at top of the draft three years running and yet there are holes all over the roster Is there more?

So it's that simple huh? They (you) come at it so logically and even keeled, no biases whatsoever. Just stone cold facts and reality. Level playing field. Got it.

the division was not the worst in NFL history although it was poor. Not sure what that has to do with being 6-10 though.

The NFC South the season the Panthers went 7-9 only had 22 total wins. Heck, WFT didn't go 6-10. They matched Seattle and Carolina at 7-9.

In comment 15135892 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 15135887 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: - 15-33 overall record - 6-10 in the worst division of NFL history - Picked at top of the draft three years running and yet there are holes all over the roster Is there more? So it's that simple huh? They (you) come at it so logically and even keeled, no biases whatsoever. Just stone cold facts and reality. Level playing field. Got it.

Simple answer usually works best :-)

Seriously though, I will let you draft the opposition's stance. I am going to lunch.

In comment 15135887 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

- 15-33 overall record - 6-10 in the worst division of NFL history - Picked at top of the draft three years running and yet there are holes all over the roster Is there more?

Isn't it time to log out and begin posting as LBH15? Gotta keep the schtick going.

In comment 15135895 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

the division was not the worst in NFL history although it was poor. Not sure what that has to do with being 6-10 though. The NFC South the season the Panthers went 7-9 only had 22 total wins. Heck, WFT didn't go 6-10. They matched Seattle and Carolina at 7-9.

Yeah, I didn't really know though figured it was close.

And at least the Giants went 4-2 as well and were an Engram-catch away from being 5-1. Ah, yes...there is always a silver lining!

In comment 15135908 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In comment 15135895 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: the division was not the worst in NFL history although it was poor. Not sure what that has to do with being 6-10 though. The NFC South the season the Panthers went 7-9 only had 22 total wins. Heck, WFT didn't go 6-10. They matched Seattle and Carolina at 7-9. Yeah, I didn't really know though figured it was close. And at least the Giants went 4-2 as well and were an Engram-catch away from being 5-1. Ah, yes...there is always a silver lining!

Dupetastic.

In comment 15135887 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

- 15-33 overall record - 6-10 in the worst division of NFL history - Picked at top of the draft three years running and yet there are holes all over the roster Is there more?

That's irrelevant around here. Those are just numbers. Silly numbers.

What matters is the people in charge are trying very hard and they are nice, quality people. And they supposedly know more about football than any of us. So it's best as fans we exercise patience - because that's what Mara asked for again at the State of Jints Central a few weeks ago - and "trust" that they will get this right.

I have a feeling if these same people where your money managers they would have been telling you to hold onto Enron in 2001 and trust Ken Lay...

In comment 15135837 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15135723 crick n NC said: Quote: What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason. So is 15-33 "within reason"?

Bw, you search for context when it suits your view, then leave out context when it does not. It is part of how you have chosen to represent yourself here.

Let's be honest here. It was never a evaluation of what the team was or where it was at. Why people are seemingly trying to defend the GM here is cringeworthy.

They were not moving away from Eli until his contract was over. Period. Any moves made during Eli time here was to keep trying to win a trophy. So, while i didn't like any of the moves that were made, let not act like Gettleman walked in and had no idea what was going on.

In comment 15135957 GManinDC said:

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Let's be honest here. It was never a evaluation of what the team was or where it was at. Why people are seemingly trying to defend the GM here is cringeworthy. They were not moving away from Eli until his contract was over. Period. Any moves made during Eli time here was to keep trying to win a trophy. So, while i didn't like any of the moves that were made, let not act like Gettleman walked in and had no idea what was going on.

Who is defending Gettleman here? Some of us that don't form an opinion as fast as others aren't necessarily defending a philosophy of an individual.

In comment 15135962 crick n NC said:

Quote:

In comment 15135957 GManinDC said: Quote: Let's be honest here. It was never a evaluation of what the team was or where it was at. Why people are seemingly trying to defend the GM here is cringeworthy. They were not moving away from Eli until his contract was over. Period. Any moves made during Eli time here was to keep trying to win a trophy. So, while i didn't like any of the moves that were made, let not act like Gettleman walked in and had no idea what was going on. Who is defending Gettleman here? Some of us that don't form an opinion as fast as others aren't necessarily defending a philosophy of an individual.

I said seemingly by implying the moves that was made this year. It's like the first 2 years didn't count

upon arrival. I put it in all caps for emphasis.

Then I proceeded to talk about all the moves since, not just this years, but included last year’s as well.

Also added that an entire 53 man roster can’t be built or turned over in one season due to finite resources, but came to the conclusion that the sum of the parts does indicate that talent has been acquired.

so I think calling me a defender is inaccurate.

However, I can acknowledge that talent has been acquired, and that I can see a roster being built. Not patchwork, but from the inside out.

In comment 15135980 Britt in VA said:

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so I think calling me a defender is inaccurate. However, I can acknowledge that talent has been acquired, and that I can see a roster being built. Not patchwork, but from the inside out.

It is very accurate, own it. Nothing wrong with it. You don't have to apologize for defending him.

I would be happy with being called a Gettleman critic, which is similar to calling you a defender, because I am. I bristle when the criticism is labeled hate. 15-33 is reasonable to criticize.

I would argue the circumstances explain the 2nd half of the 2020 season but seeing hope in those results is reasonable too. It just is. Next year again. At some point, the excuses, have to end though.

In comment 15135980 Britt in VA said:

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so I think calling me a defender is inaccurate. However, I can acknowledge that talent has been acquired, and that I can see a roster being built. Not patchwork, but from the inside out.

I agree with this.

They see a hole and try to fill it, not realizing that previously filled holes can open again.

The roster is very thin, and there isn't much in the way of draft picks and cap space to do anything drastic. And that's without factoring in the real possibility that the QB and the offensive coordinator are poor.

I expect the defense to be worse than it was in 2020, as defense tends to regress to the mean from year to year. I think the offense is going to have to be much, much better in 2021 just to get to 8-8.

Those were wrong. I concede. They misjudged the whole thing in 2018. I concede.

However, I haven't seen a lot of signings like that since. I see a young squad being built. A mix of drafted talent, a few savvy traded for talent, and a couple of nice free agent signings.

Who have they signed that they shouldn't have post 2018?

but i never called anyone a defender. And for the record, it was no mis-judgement in my opinion and in 8 games they did not turn it around. They kept adding more obsolete players and kept the coach.

And your praise the team for adding resources, can you point out the resources that were purged. There's quite a few players that were purged that that didn't need be. Especially on the defensive side..

There is no solid core. The secondary is set. The DL could be gone in one off-season. No Wr's or TE. Zero offensive skill positions threats..

Before we start calling this season an arrow pointing forward, let's see what the off-season brings. I don't think the roster is going to look the same as people are thinking..

In comment 15135952 crick n NC said:

Quote:

In comment 15135837 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 15135723 crick n NC said: Quote: What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason. So is 15-33 "within reason"? Bw, you search for context when it suits your view, then leave out context when it does not. It is part of how you have chosen to represent yourself here.

Well, the floor is yours to add context to a legitimate question. Not looking to make you uncomfortable, just curious what your thinking is to make your statement.

of move by the Giants. Patchwork in the setting of an NFL football roster is a player only needed for the short-term to patch an issue or problem until a better, more permanent solution is planned for.

Solder was the highest paid offensive lineman in history, at least at the time. And that deal was entered into almost three years ago and the NY Giants are still facing cap consequences for it that could even bleed into 2022.

CB Yiadom is a patchwork move, not Nate Solder.

The Giants could be contending for a Super Bowl next season if DG did an excellent job from day one. Maybe even if he did an excellent job starting in 2019. IMO, he did neither.

I would be shocked and thrilled if this is a 10+ win team next year and Jones is a top 10-12 QB. I don't see it happening. Do Dave Gettleman 'supporters/defenders' (Whatever you want to call them) see it?

In comment 15136068 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15135952 crick n NC said: Quote: In comment 15135837 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 15135723 crick n NC said: Quote: What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason. So is 15-33 "within reason"? Bw, you search for context when it suits your view, then leave out context when it does not. It is part of how you have chosen to represent yourself here. Well, the floor is yours to add context to a legitimate question. Not looking to make you uncomfortable, just curious what your thinking is to make your statement.

Britt did an excellent job above detailing the context.

In comment 15135230 Britt in VA said:

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with whatever came between. Literally, I’d make that deal right now.

I respect that take, but in reality we both know building a championship team is usually a step process and doesn't come out of nowhere.

So "whatever comes between" will likely require an upward trajectory and the end of these double digit loss seasons.

I think that's all anyone wants. Strong evidence this team is close. In 2005 it was pretty clear the team was getting close, in 1984 it was pretty clear the team was getting close.

If the Giants win 9 or 10 games next year, led by Jones, I guarantee you Terps and I will be high fiving.