I started a thread last week on this, but deleted it. This week, I’ve got to leave it up. As each year passes, I’m more impressed that Coughlin & Eli won *two* titles in their tenure here. It’s so hard to do, as we just watched the Packers lose at home. We watched the Saints lose last week at home.
Just an incredible accomplishment.
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I don't think TC was ever great at clock management. I think his weaknesses became more glaring in 2015.
It's also difficult to keep a coach who has missed the playoffs four years in a row.
He also took more risks on offense in 2015, probably in response to trying to keep the defense off the field.
Exactly. That's more in line with reality than the senile old coot narrative that took hold.
It is one of the most overblown things posted on BBI
Exactly. I think one of the most overlooked aspects of McAdoo’s tenure was the influence of TC on his scheme. Recall the first 2 games of McAdoo at OC, 14 puts v the mighty Lions and Cardinals, with just over 200 yds per game. BBI was ready to burn the Giants offices down. TC forced McAdoo to use more motion, more bunched WR formations, and the offense took off.
Left to his own devices, McAdoo went back to his old formula - no motion, no bunched sets, playing everything to get Odell open on a slant The only reason the offense was even remotely successful was the brilliance of Odell. Eli isn’t blameless, but he had a fantastic yeas in 2014 & 2015 averaged over 4400 yds, 33 TD’s and 63% completion %.
Did Eli just fall off a cliff in 2016, or was McAdoo exposed as a terrible play designer and caller? While it’s fair to think that Eli may have been declining, I’m going with door B.
Is the bold accurate? McAdoo was that emphatic and Reese was trying to to get Mahomes?
Because the deal KC got with Buffalo was easily something we could have packaged.
KC moved up from the 27th pick. We were at the 23rd spot. So we technically had more value.
I agree with this but don't feel the need to assign blame.
The Giants up until 2015 had a very stable arrangement in place going on a decade and not far removed from two championships. You can't blame them any more than say the Pittsburgh Steelers who were sticking with what was working.
It is time to adapt, I agree. However, you can't just change the way you've done business overnight.
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I don't think TC was ever great at clock management. I think his weaknesses became more glaring in 2015.
It's also difficult to keep a coach who has missed the playoffs four years in a row.
He also took more risks on offense in 2015, probably in response to trying to keep the defense off the field.
Good point. I view that 15 season through a bit of a different lens now than I did at the time.
I loved TC, I think Giant fans underrated him for the most part.
I thought it was time for him to go after the Beckham game in Carolina. TC wasn't quite the disciplinarian he portrayed himself as, but that sequence wasn't acceptable. And then he claimed he wasn't aware? Really bothered me.
I also didn't really understand the logic of firing him and hiring a subordinate. McAdoo got way too much credit for 'fixing' Eli in 14/15 when Eli just had an atrocious year in '13 due to poor OL, slow adjustments, etc.
I'm interested in assigning blame. We deserve better than Mara telling us each season how the arrow is pointing up, when it isn't.
Eli could have definitely been a solid starter IF he had a above average OL and running game. His mind was still intact and that is the most important of the traits.
I think it all goes back to keeping the OL for too long that really was a big part of the 2005-2012 run. It fell apart after 2012 but there were plenty of warning signs. I think this was TC's biggest mistake he made in his coaching career. Too much loyalty.
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Despite McAdoo's failure as head coach, he was indeed correct about Mahomes (he was banging the table to trade up for him, and Reese was trying), and that Eli was declining and no longer able to stand in the face of a pass rush, make some of the longer vertical passes, etc. It was what it was, and it wasn't a figment of the imagination.
Is the bold accurate? McAdoo was that emphatic and Reese was trying to to get Mahomes?
Because the deal KC got with Buffalo was easily something we could have packaged.
KC moved up from the 27th pick. We were at the 23rd spot. So we technically had more value.
Yep. I was told at the time Mahomes was the preferred target, they were trying to trade up to be in position to get him, but they weren't going to move a pile of assets to pull it off and were content to sit tight. Was also told one of the next preferred targets was Engram. I shared this back then, was as surprised as the next fan when hearing of the conviction on Mahomes.
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In comment 15134688 JonC said:
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Despite McAdoo's failure as head coach, he was indeed correct about Mahomes (he was banging the table to trade up for him, and Reese was trying), and that Eli was declining and no longer able to stand in the face of a pass rush, make some of the longer vertical passes, etc. It was what it was, and it wasn't a figment of the imagination.
Is the bold accurate? McAdoo was that emphatic and Reese was trying to to get Mahomes?
Because the deal KC got with Buffalo was easily something we could have packaged.
KC moved up from the 27th pick. We were at the 23rd spot. So we technically had more value.
Yep. I was told at the time Mahomes was the preferred target, they were trying to trade up to be in position to get him, but they weren't going to move a pile of assets to pull it off and were content to sit tight. Was also told one of the next preferred targets was Engram. I shared this back then, was as surprised as the next fan when hearing of the conviction on Mahomes.
Thanks, Jon.
The Chiefs gave up the 27th pick (2017 draft), a third in the 2017 draft and the Chiefs first in the 2018 draft (which I think was the 22nd pick).
In hindsight, that's a steal, but a very fair deal, too, at the time.
Geesh, what might have been - because I think our 2018 pick would have been more attractive to the Bills.
I'm interested in assigning blame. We deserve better than Mara telling us each season how the arrow is pointing up, when it isn't.
I'm not sure what is negative about wanting another Eli.
1. That type of Qb doesn't win playoff games.
2. That type of Qb get hurt often as he had to leave the Bills game hurt.
How is a short passing mobile QB an Eli clone? Eli became a short passing QB but that was because of McAdoo. He was really a deep passing , pocket qb.
Meanwhile a 43 year old Brady is playing in the SB yet again.
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In comment 15134803 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15134688 JonC said:
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Despite McAdoo's failure as head coach, he was indeed correct about Mahomes (he was banging the table to trade up for him, and Reese was trying), and that Eli was declining and no longer able to stand in the face of a pass rush, make some of the longer vertical passes, etc. It was what it was, and it wasn't a figment of the imagination.
Is the bold accurate? McAdoo was that emphatic and Reese was trying to to get Mahomes?
Because the deal KC got with Buffalo was easily something we could have packaged.
KC moved up from the 27th pick. We were at the 23rd spot. So we technically had more value.
Yep. I was told at the time Mahomes was the preferred target, they were trying to trade up to be in position to get him, but they weren't going to move a pile of assets to pull it off and were content to sit tight. Was also told one of the next preferred targets was Engram. I shared this back then, was as surprised as the next fan when hearing of the conviction on Mahomes.
Thanks, Jon.
The Chiefs gave up the 27th pick (2017 draft), a third in the 2017 draft and the Chiefs first in the 2018 draft (which I think was the 22nd pick).
In hindsight, that's a steal, but a very fair deal, too, at the time.
Geesh, what might have been - because I think our 2018 pick would have been more attractive to the Bills.
If the Giants were trying to trade up to get their future qb, that puts a hole in the theory that Mara didn't allow the Giants to move on or prepare to move on from Manning
I would never be so bold to say any prospect looks Canton bound.
But Mahomes was unbelievable his last year at TTech. I couldn't believe some of the throws he made, especially rolling left. It was Brett Favre with more athleticism jumping off the screen. And I get very dubious of Big 12 QBs because of the poor defense...
I remember Gruden had Mahomes on his ESPN show where he interviewed and worked with QB prospects before the draft. Watching Gruden break down the film of Mahomes was pure art work. Gruden has seen everything and even he was blown away...
Thanks, Jon.
The Chiefs gave up the 27th pick (2017 draft), a third in the 2017 draft and the Chiefs first in the 2018 draft (which I think was the 22nd pick).
In hindsight, that's a steal, but a very fair deal, too, at the time.
Geesh, what might have been - because I think our 2018 pick would have been more attractive to the Bills.
If the Giants were trying to trade up to get their future qb, that puts a hole in the theory that Mara didn't allow the Giants to move on or prepare to move on from Manning
Maybe so heading into 2017. Or perhaps Mara put the kibosh on the deal because he thought it was too much...? Really don't have a read on that.
But after 2017 and Geno Gate occurred, I am convinced that Mara got a second wind with Eli and went all in looking for magic carpet ride #3.
It's interesting, because as a big Manning supporter as you would find, I understood the Giants needed to have options going forward for his replacement. A proper plan to replace a team legend isn't typically meant with a revolt. The revolt happened because it seemed like a desperate attempt to shift blame from McAdoo and Reese to Manning like you outlined above. The revolt wasn't an issue, it was the horribly forced plan by all involved. Acquiring a young qb with franchise potential is smart business move that will not be met with criticism by reasonable people, the year who criticize can simply be tuned out (football dummies).
Once the Giants passed on QB in 2018, they should have waited until 2020. The 2019 draft should have been used to build up the infrastructure of the roster. That would have allowed 2020 to be a full clean slate with a new QB (Herbert most likely).
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Then, it sure seems to me they were a bit desperate (as were fans) to secure Jones in 2019 ...
Once the Giants passed on QB in 2018, they should have waited until 2020. The 2019 draft should have been used to build up the infrastructure of the roster. That would have allowed 2020 to be a full clean slate with a new QB (Herbert most likely).
That was my plan, including a belief we'd be picking top 5 again. I get why they fell for Jones and that they felt they couldn't wait another year for QB. But, it all feels reactionary and poorly planned. More like they took what the draft and circumstances gave them at QB. No like.
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We're well past overnight, and I'm still not convinced they're even trying to adapt. Building around a running back, drafting an Eli clone, running Garrett's offense...
I'm interested in assigning blame. We deserve better than Mara telling us each season how the arrow is pointing up, when it isn't.
I'm not sure what is negative about wanting another Eli.
There's a lot that's negative about it:
1. Overdrafting Jones, who if we're being honest was more of a 3rd/4th round prospect
2. Once we drafted Jones, we didn't do him any favors in how we used him. The truth is though he might look and act like Eli, he doesn't play like Eli at all. What do we know about Jones?
Pros: Tough, big, good straight line speed, accurate on prescribed throws
Cons: No pocket presence, poor ball security, doesn't see the field well before or after the snap
That doesn't sound anything like Eli. If you want a comp for Jones, it's closer to Cam Newton...you don't want him sitting in the pocket, but he can do things for you with his legs and his arm if you make the read easy for him.
But we want another Eli. So what do we do? We hire Jason Garrett, whose offense made more sense in 2005, to be the offensive coordinator. So instead of playing to Jones's strengths, we're now showcasing his weaknesses. Instead of running him, getting him outside the pocket, and cutting the field down for him we are asking him to operate from the pocket and read the field like he's Eli.
3.A QB like Eli might be a dying/extinct breed. Is there a pure pocket passer in the Eli/Rivers/Brady mold succeeding in the NFL under the age of 30? I don't think there is. College football isn't producing pocket passers, and it's not producing offensive linemen capable of protecting pocket passers. You don't have to be Lamar Jackson to play QB in the NFL, but the ability to at least extend plays with your legs is now an essential trait. The immobile pocket passer is, at least for now, waving goodbye as the Brady generation leaves the league.
Clinging to the last few years of Eli, then trying to replace him with a clone, then trying to cram that square shaped clone into the round hole left by Eli...all are mistakes that have played an enormous role in the Giants sitting where they are.
We don't want another Eli. The Giants need to stop looking into their own past and start looking elsewhere at trends around the league to inform their decisions.
While we're at comparing the Coughlin 2015 team to the McAdoo 2016 team....
Wanna guess what the defensive ranks were for those two?
2015: 30th in the NFL
2016: 2nd in the NFL
Ha, yeah, let's give McAdoo credit.
Eli was like the opposite of those. I guess they had the same coach and both shrig their shoulders after a throw?
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Shows you how much people disliked Manning and Coughlin and were ready to discredit them in any way possible.
While we're at comparing the Coughlin 2015 team to the McAdoo 2016 team....
Wanna guess what the defensive ranks were for those two?
2015: 30th in the NFL
2016: 2nd in the NFL
Ha, yeah, let's give McAdoo credit.
One must wonder what would have happened had the two heirs kept the entire coaching staff together and spent the 100 million on defensive players that they spent to prop up Otis as HC. Would they have still gotten buried in GB by McCarthy and Rodgers?
We know the answer to that, don’t we Gene?
It brings out the old criticism of mobile QBs....the strategy is not as effective in the post season. Of the 2 -- one is Mahomes who for all we know is just the recipient of excellent coaching as well as unique athletics and the other Russ Wilson. Despite plenty of chances he has come nowhere near the success of pocket passing Brady with several wins and appearances in the SB.
Think of all the disappointments in the post season by mobile QBs...L Jackson, Josh allen, Tannehill, A Rodgers.
There's a lot that's negative about it:
1. Overdrafting Jones, who if we're being honest was more of a 3rd/4th round prospect
2. Once we drafted Jones, we didn't do him any favors in how we used him. The truth is though he might look and act like Eli, he doesn't play like Eli at all. What do we know about Jones?
Pros: Tough, big, good straight line speed, accurate on prescribed throws
Cons: No pocket presence, poor ball security, doesn't see the field well before or after the snap
That doesn't sound anything like Eli. If you want a comp for Jones, it's closer to Cam Newton...you don't want him sitting in the pocket, but he can do things for you with his legs and his arm if you make the read easy for him.
But we want another Eli. So what do we do? We hire Jason Garrett, whose offense made more sense in 2005, to be the offensive coordinator. So instead of playing to Jones's strengths, we're now showcasing his weaknesses. Instead of running him, getting him outside the pocket, and cutting the field down for him we are asking him to operate from the pocket and read the field like he's Eli.
3.A QB like Eli might be a dying/extinct breed. Is there a pure pocket passer in the Eli/Rivers/Brady mold succeeding in the NFL under the age of 30? I don't think there is. College football isn't producing pocket passers, and it's not producing offensive linemen capable of protecting pocket passers. You don't have to be Lamar Jackson to play QB in the NFL, but the ability to at least extend plays with your legs is now an essential trait. The immobile pocket passer is, at least for now, waving goodbye as the Brady generation leaves the league.
Clinging to the last few years of Eli, then trying to replace him with a clone, then trying to cram that square shaped clone into the round hole left by Eli...all are mistakes that have played an enormous role in the Giants sitting where they are.
We don't want another Eli. The Giants need to stop looking into their own past and start looking elsewhere at trends around the league to inform their decisions.
A really good post. I might quibble with DJ being a 3rd or 4th rounder, if NYG hadn't taken him, I think he would have gone higher than that, but there is a good chance he would have made it to round 2. Everything else is spot on.
Daniel Jones. Tall clean-cut QB with a Cutcliffe relationship who attended a southern college. Like Eli. Check.
Daniel Jones had a poor sophomore season? So did Eli and that obviously turned out well, so Jones will be fine. [My comment: Eli did not have a poor sophomore season.]
It clouds perception and front office actions and directly led to the over drafting of Jones. (Who I see as a late 1st rd prospect, like Rex Grossman.)
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In comment 15134753 BrettNYG10 said:
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I don't think TC was ever great at clock management. I think his weaknesses became more glaring in 2015.
It's also difficult to keep a coach who has missed the playoffs four years in a row.
He also took more risks on offense in 2015, probably in response to trying to keep the defense off the field.
Exactly. That's more in line with reality than the senile old coot narrative that took hold.
Let's be honest. Coughlin coached well for some pretty good teams and had a nice consistent run there for a bit, but not sure he should ever be labeled with actually ever having a "fastball". He had his flaws too, particularly as Brett noted above with clock management.
And the statement he had to take some risks in 2015 because of the leaky defense is spot on. Unfortunately for him it seemed like every risk he took went against him making it seem the game had passed him by. In some instances it probably was.
He got the boot because the team went into a fairly steady decline for 4 straight years after that Super Bowl. Plenty of blame could have been tossed around as to why but Coughlin was the one who had to take it on the chin. Not sure it really was that big of a deal as it was getting close to being that time anyway with him. It just wound up badly for us because McAdoo wasn't obviously head coaching material.
Maybe McAdoo should have been given the head scouting job with this keen eye he had for future HOF QBs...
Cosmic - Can't recall the road leading up to Gilbride's departure. Was it that the OL was turning into a disaster hindering Eli & Offense so Coughlin gave up Gilbride as the sacrificial lamb? Can't remember.
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retirement after the 2013 season. At the time, I thought the argument for this change was reasonable, but the more time passes, the more it looks like the first move of an incompetent ownership group: unable to process information objectively, playing favorites, and unable to solve problems.
Cosmic - Can't recall the road leading up to Gilbride's departure. Was it that the OL was turning into a disaster hindering Eli & Offense so Coughlin gave up Gilbride as the sacrificial lamb? Can't remember.
QUote from John Mara's end of season presser: "Why did it take so long to realize Jernigan could play?"
Spoiler, he couldn't. It was then that you knew that Reese had Mara's ear over the Coaching staff, IMO.
I can remember Eli working one of his late 4th Qtr go ahead drives in games to go up late in the game; only for the opposing teams to come marching right back down the field; I still remember Eli watching it from the sidelines and mouthing "this is bullshit". McAdoo did work on the 4 minute drill which led them to win some close games but I suspect it is more of his 100 million dollar defense more than anything.
Gilbride "retired" 3 days later.
QUote from John Mara's end of season presser: "Why did it take so long to realize Jernigan could play?"
Spoiler, he couldn't. It was then that you knew that Reese had Mara's ear over the Coaching staff, IMO.
Ha. That was indeed an uncalled for comment by Mara. And clearly showed he was getting unnerved with the losing and talent on field disappearing.
Gilbride "retired" 3 days later.
I think the argument was that KG's passing scheme was too complicated for young players to learn. While there is some truth to that, the fact that they neglected an OL that was running on fumes in 2011 was an indictment of the entire organization.
If Eli is going to be your QB and Gilbride is going to be the OC you need to be strong on the offensive line. And they never were again. The 2011 title by an OK team that got hot papered that over.
Concurrently the league was changing around the Giants and they failed to adapt. They are still failing to adapt. Eli's shadow looms enormous over the whole organization.
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He basically, at that point in time, said it was a coaching problem and there were talented players on the roster.
Gilbride "retired" 3 days later.
I think the argument was that KG's passing scheme was too complicated for young players to learn. While there is some truth to that, the fact that they neglected an OL that was running on fumes in 2011 was an indictment of the entire organization.
Yes. Running of fumes in 2011, and now after a decade of adding/subtracting a ton of guys from the OL we still wonder if it will be stabilized.
Daniel Jones. Tall clean-cut QB with a Cutcliffe relationship who attended a southern college. Like Eli. Check.
Daniel Jones had a poor sophomore season? So did Eli and that obviously turned out well, so Jones will be fine. [My comment: Eli did not have a poor sophomore season.]
It clouds perception and front office actions and directly led to the over drafting of Jones. (Who I see as a late 1st rd prospect, like Rex Grossman.)
Has there ever been a time where it's been this easy to predict what this organization is going to do?
-- Reese gets fired. It takes all of a NY minute to figure it's going to be Gettleman once Accorsi is brought in to "consult".
-- Gettleman, who was here when Accorsi selected Eli, says he believes Eli can still playing winning football.
-- Shurmur is hired. The OC who just resuscitated Keenum in Minnesota. Like predicting the sun will rise in the east, he's on-board with Eli.
-- 2018 draft. Eli needs a big toy. Gettleman is firmly entrenched in the "Giants "Way" and old school football. Of course the pick has to be Barkley...right? Lay-up.
-- Eli is finally considered flat-lined. So it's time to find a QB. Who a number of key connections to the Mannings? Why it's Daniel Jones, QB, Duke. And with the 6th pick int he 2019 draft, Jints Central selects "Aw-shucks", part two.
No room for pocket passer? Certainly the ability to shift in the pocket is important but you do not have to have a running QB. Mahomes is more shifty in the pocket than runner imo.
The fact remains. The Giants drafted very poorly for many years and had some bad injuries to stars. TC and Eli's demise were caused by the lack of overall talent and physical presence on the lines.
That offense, when humming along, was nearly unstoppable.
That offense, when humming along, was nearly unstoppable.
I wasn't making an indictment of KG at all, he was one of the best offensive minds this org has ever had, but his (and TC's) scheme was very complex, with adjustments on the fly depending on what the defense was doing. QB and WR's had to be on the same page.
And yes, Reese didn't draft the kind of guys who could take to it, after Nicks and Cruz. Those 2 were workaholics, something Jernigan and Reuben Randle were rarely accused of.