I started a thread last week on this, but deleted it. This week, I’ve got to leave it up. As each year passes, I’m more impressed that Coughlin & Eli won *two* titles in their tenure here. It’s so hard to do, as we just watched the Packers lose at home. We watched the Saints lose last week at home.
Just an incredible accomplishment.
The REAL problem was that Gilbride and Coughlin's offense required 5 and 7 step drops, and time for the receivers to get downfield. By 2013, Manning couldn't even get get to three steps before being smothered. Guys were getting there so fast he was getting tackled mid-playaction.
Gilbrides offense required an offensive line capable of the QB getting to the top of his dropback. Was never fixed. Still not quite fixed. But that's where it went downhill.
If you believe Gilbride, he went to management in 2009 asking for help there.
There seems to be two schools of thought with Giant fans:
1. Look at all the success they’ve had - 5 Super Bowl appearances since 1986 and the only team in the NFL to win a championship in four consecutive decades.
2. Disappointment in the lack of consistent winning. The Giants have only won 12 games twice since 2000 and have never won more than 12 games in the regular season since 2000.
You can’t say either without referencing the other. So, if the Giants are criticized for lack of dominant regular seasons, it’s only fair to reference the Super Bowl success as well. Both are facts and fair to point out.
The Giants are a unique case as a franchise with regards to the above.
It is not. And frankly the comps of Jones to Eli are bullshit and insulting to Eli.
Eli ain't walking through that door.
2- Eli Manning, Russell Wilson
1- Rex Grossman, Kurt Warner, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Colin Kaepernick, Cam Newton, Matt Ryan, Nick Foles, Jared Goff, Jimmy Garoppolo, Tom Brady
I think we look at Brees to Rivers, Favre to Rodgers, and even Peyton to Luck and think with a little foresight it is easy.
There was a LONG gap between Simms/Parcells and Coughlin/Eli.
They are golden eras for a reason.
What I take from the 2 championships is Accorsi/Reese/Gettleman:
- Got the head coach hire right on the 1st try
- Cut ties with the veteran QB immediately and took a big risk to get their guy
- Had a near perfect batting average with their big dollar free agents for several years
- Added 2-3 bona fide starters or contributors in several consecutive drafts
- Endured many injuries and big egos along the way
In essence, it was hard and they had to get most of it right every year. None of this “the rebuild really started 2 years later” shit.
29 years straight of HOF QB play and counting! If that doesn’t hammer it home, nothing will.
1. Look at all the success they’ve had - 5 Super Bowl appearances since 1986 and the only team in the NFL to win a championship in four consecutive decades.
From '84 to '91, the Giants were great. It was their Camelot period. Those SBs were expected. And I feel to this day they likely should have had three.
The most recent two? Nothing great about those teams. They were good teams who caught lightening in the bottle and rode the magic carpet. Don't get me wrong. You certainly take them, but the Camelot era wins, albeit I was very young, were the dividend of a well built organization able to consistently compete against other great organizations at the time (9ers, Washington, Raiders, Denver).
That's what I long for...
It SO hard-unless you're Brady obviously, Haha-to win it all. That's why I love those '07 & '11 teams so much. You gotta catch breaks & capitalize on them.
Aside from the Pats & Steelers, no one else in the current NFL has dealt with moving off a 2x SB QB. The Pats did it with Brady (or maybe he left them) & the Steelers are sticking with Ben who looks to be shot. The Saints stuck with Brees despite him not being able to throw the ball down the field, and I’m sure if he wanted to play next year, he’d be the starter next year.
The point is, it’s not easy. Add in all the fan backlash in 2017 and it makes it even harder.
I do think it is very fair to criticize the moves made surrounding Eli, even in 2018. I also think he was always a lousy fit for the west coast offense.
Eli is behind us now, and the franchise needs to start winning this year.
Don't give these guys a pass. The league is designed to prop up bad teams, and it's designed to promote scoring. They still suck and can't score.
This isn't bad luck.
Don't give these guys a pass. The league is designed to prop up bad teams, and it's designed to promote scoring. They still suck and can't score.
This isn't bad luck.
I’m giving Judge a chance here. If you’ve listened to GM Shuffle the last few episodes, you’ve heard Lombardi reference this:
There are two kinds of franchise thinking - 1. The organization makes the head coach (he mentioned this when talking about the Eagles & Packers, not ideal). 2. The head coach makes the organization (we say this with Parcells & Coughlin and now hopefully Judge).
The head coach is the most important aspect of an organization.
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In comment 15134987 cosmicj said:
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retirement after the 2013 season. At the time, I thought the argument for this change was reasonable, but the more time passes, the more it looks like the first move of an incompetent ownership group: unable to process information objectively, playing favorites, and unable to solve problems.
Cosmic - Can't recall the road leading up to Gilbride's departure. Was it that the OL was turning into a disaster hindering Eli & Offense so Coughlin gave up Gilbride as the sacrificial lamb? Can't remember.
QUote from John Mara's end of season presser: "Why did it take so long to realize Jernigan could play?"
Spoiler, he couldn't. It was then that you knew that Reese had Mara's ear over the Coaching staff, IMO.
You know Britt. You have been blaming Reese for years. Its been pointed out with direct quotes the Coughlin agreed with every decision. Direct quote from Mara himself.
It also been pointed out that all draft picks were made by committee. So what is it? When you talk about the glory years, you ever rarely me tin Reese except that he ruined the 2nd half of Eli's career..
It was an organizational failure. All hands on deck. Why do continually push this obvious false narrative?
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In comment 15134829 Go Terps said:
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We're well past overnight, and I'm still not convinced they're even trying to adapt. Building around a running back, drafting an Eli clone, running Garrett's offense...
I'm interested in assigning blame. We deserve better than Mara telling us each season how the arrow is pointing up, when it isn't.
I'm not sure what is negative about wanting another Eli.
There's a lot that's negative about it:
1. Overdrafting Jones, who if we're being honest was more of a 3rd/4th round prospect
2. Once we drafted Jones, we didn't do him any favors in how we used him. The truth is though he might look and act like Eli, he doesn't play like Eli at all. What do we know about Jones?
Pros: Tough, big, good straight line speed, accurate on prescribed throws
Cons: No pocket presence, poor ball security, doesn't see the field well before or after the snap
That doesn't sound anything like Eli. If you want a comp for Jones, it's closer to Cam Newton...you don't want him sitting in the pocket, but he can do things for you with his legs and his arm if you make the read easy for him.
But we want another Eli. So what do we do? We hire Jason Garrett, whose offense made more sense in 2005, to be the offensive coordinator. So instead of playing to Jones's strengths, we're now showcasing his weaknesses. Instead of running him, getting him outside the pocket, and cutting the field down for him we are asking him to operate from the pocket and read the field like he's Eli.
3.A QB like Eli might be a dying/extinct breed. Is there a pure pocket passer in the Eli/Rivers/Brady mold succeeding in the NFL under the age of 30? I don't think there is. College football isn't producing pocket passers, and it's not producing offensive linemen capable of protecting pocket passers. You don't have to be Lamar Jackson to play QB in the NFL, but the ability to at least extend plays with your legs is now an essential trait. The immobile pocket passer is, at least for now, waving goodbye as the Brady generation leaves the league.
Clinging to the last few years of Eli, then trying to replace him with a clone, then trying to cram that square shaped clone into the round hole left by Eli...all are mistakes that have played an enormous role in the Giants sitting where they are.
We don't want another Eli. The Giants need to stop looking into their own past and start looking elsewhere at trends around the league to inform their decisions.
Over-drafting a player because you want a player from the past would be foolish. But, you and I don't agree with the value of Jones, there really isn't a need to go into that.
I also don't agree with your view on Garrett's offense or why he was hired here.
Lastly Jones is a developing qb who I think deserves a decent opportunity to thrive. We hear the roster sucks, we hear the scheme sucks, wouldn't be surrounded by that hurt a Qb's chance to develop?
Yeah I like him a lot. But I think he's saddled with albatrosses in Mara, Gettleman, Garrett, and Jones. I've been hoping they would get out of the way and let Judge run the show. I'm not optimistic that's happening.
This is why its crazy talk to think there is blame because the Giants should have won 3..
At some point, the committee you mentioned soured and were no longer seeing eye to eye. I think it was 2013 and said why.
Coughlin was fired. So then Reese was tasked with fixing the roster “Jerry knows this is on him (John Mara at Coughlin’s retirement conference). Reese still failed.
I loved Reese as a GM. I loved it all the way up until it started to fracture and the blame shifting began.
Naah, they can do better than that.
Look for another NY Giant Super Bowl win 3 years after Gettleman retires. That should be sooner than 2029.
At some point, the committee you mentioned soured and were no longer seeing eye to eye. I think it was 2013 and said why.
Coughlin was fired. So then Reese was tasked with fixing the roster “Jerry knows this is on him (John Mara at Coughlin’s retirement conference). Reese still failed.
I loved Reese as a GM. I loved it all the way up until it started to fracture and the blame shifting began.
So basically you took Reese's quotes personal? Wow, I see why people still don't like Tiki.
And who was shifting blame?. Reese was getting blamed for years when the organization was as a whole was making decisions. I think it was also mention that Chris Mara was inserted into the operation decisions..
So. Now I understand your reasoning. I don't agree at all, but ok..
Jones doesn't deserve anything. The only thing keeping him on the field is where he was drafted. Since then, he hasn't earned the right to be the starter unquestioned. If he were a UDFA, would he be starting in 2021? Nope. We'd be looking at drafting a quarterback.
It's on Jones to kick the door down and earn the job. But that's not how the Giants operate, and we see the results.
Jones doesn't deserve anything. The only thing keeping him on the field is where he was drafted. Since then, he hasn't earned the right to be the starter unquestioned. If he were a UDFA, would he be starting in 2021? Nope. We'd be looking at drafting a quarterback.
It's on Jones to kick the door down and earn the job. But that's not how the Giants operate, and we see the results.
Terps, perhaps my term, "deserves" was inaccurate. I would like to rephrase, and say, it may be wise to see Jones under better circumstances. If he plays better, but not want the team wants necessarily for the future, his value can increase. Or perhaps his growth combined with better circumstances shows that he would be a guy to build the offense around.
I don't have any issue with your doubts about Jones, doubts about Jones are fair to a certain extent. You and I are farthest apart I think on how we view surrounding circumstances and how they may impact the qb position.
Here's a realistic scenario - Jones throws 25 TDs and 14 INT with 7.1 YPA, the Giants score 21 points/game, and they finish the season 7-9/8-8. That's an improvement over what happened in 2020, but it's still well below what is needed to compete with the likes of KC, Buffalo, Green Bay, Baltimore, etc.
What is likely to happen? I'd expect to hear the same story we get from Mara/Gettleman each year - "We improved", "The arrow is pointing up", etc. And we'll all be getting into the same arguments here that we've been in each of the past 3 years.
Jones is going to improve next year. He HAS to, because it's impossible to do worse than he did in 2020. He isn't going to throw 11 TDs again. But just because he improves doesn't mean he is good enough, or will be good enough, to QB this team to title contention.
Jones can improve and still be terrible in 2021. 2020 was that bad. Will Mara/Gettleman make that distinction?
Wil YOU make that distinction?
Over-drafting a player because you want a player from the past would be foolish. But, you and I don't agree with the value of Jones, there really isn't a need to go into that.
I also don't agree with your view on Garrett's offense or why he was hired here.
Lastly Jones is a developing qb who I think deserves a decent opportunity to thrive. We hear the roster sucks, we hear the scheme sucks, wouldn't be surrounded by that hurt a Qb's chance to develop?
This is what baffles me about the status quo defenders. DG and Garrett are doing great jobs, but Jones is stuck with a shitty roster and a poor scheme.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Over-drafting a player because you want a player from the past would be foolish. But, you and I don't agree with the value of Jones, there really isn't a need to go into that.
I also don't agree with your view on Garrett's offense or why he was hired here.
Lastly Jones is a developing qb who I think deserves a decent opportunity to thrive. We hear the roster sucks, we hear the scheme sucks, wouldn't be surrounded by that hurt a Qb's chance to develop?
This is what baffles me about the status quo defenders. DG and Garrett are doing great jobs, but Jones is stuck with a shitty roster and a poor scheme.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You won't see that reconciled by anyone here. I've asked the question myself.
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Over-drafting a player because you want a player from the past would be foolish. But, you and I don't agree with the value of Jones, there really isn't a need to go into that.
I also don't agree with your view on Garrett's offense or why he was hired here.
Lastly Jones is a developing qb who I think deserves a decent opportunity to thrive. We hear the roster sucks, we hear the scheme sucks, wouldn't be surrounded by that hurt a Qb's chance to develop?
This is what baffles me about the status quo defenders. DG and Garrett are doing great jobs, but Jones is stuck with a shitty roster and a poor scheme.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Am I a status quo defender?
We certainly can't have our arguments both ways unless we want to disqualify our views as honest.
I think DJ will eventually be fine to lead us towards another SB run..But I don’t KNOW, as I’m not as observant as those who KNOW..
Here's a realistic scenario - Jones throws 25 TDs and 14 INT with 7.1 YPA, the Giants score 21 points/game, and they finish the season 7-9/8-8. That's an improvement over what happened in 2020, but it's still well below what is needed to compete with the likes of KC, Buffalo, Green Bay, Baltimore, etc.
What is likely to happen? I'd expect to hear the same story we get from Mara/Gettleman each year - "We improved", "The arrow is pointing up", etc. And we'll all be getting into the same arguments here that we've been in each of the past 3 years.
Jones is going to improve next year. He HAS to, because it's impossible to do worse than he did in 2020. He isn't going to throw 11 TDs again. But just because he improves doesn't mean he is good enough, or will be good enough, to QB this team to title contention.
Jones can improve and still be terrible in 2021. 2020 was that bad. Will Mara/Gettleman make that distinction?
I think next year is going to give us close to a pretty definitive answer on whether the 'DG core' can win a championship. I don't think it can, but next year will have Jones in year three, Barkley back, his OL won't be full of rookies, etc.
I think next year has to be a 9+ win season for DG to keep his job again.
Fair enough, but you did say you liked Garrett while acknowledging that the scheme sucked. My point stands.
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What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason.
Fair enough, but you did say you liked Garrett while acknowledging that the scheme sucked. My point stands.
I didn't say the scheme sucked. I don't consider myself qualified to make that statement.
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What I see are fans who have different views on whether results are in within reason.
Fair enough, but you did say you liked Garrett while acknowledging that the scheme sucked. My point stands.
We’ll see of course, but I believe if SB is pretty much back to himself and the receiving corps is fortified/improved, Garrett will be less hamstrung..I think he had to play to his overall talent which from a fan’s POV, could/can be quite frustrating i’m sure
THIS IS THE HEART OF THE MATTER. Right here.
There are 53 players on an active roster. I don't know the exact number, but I believe less than 5 are left from the Jerry Reese era. Tomlinson, Sheppard, Engram, and...? That it?
Not only did they have to replace starters, they had to replace backups. And third stringers. Essentially, they have churned the entire 53 man roster in three years and churned it again when it wasn't working.
I have to admit, I didn't realize it was THAT bad in 2018. YOU CAN BLAME GETTLEMAN FOR NOT REALIZING IT EITHER! OKAY! I CONCEDE THAT POINT! Now, that said, 8 games into the season, they realized it and churned the whole thing and started the rebuild.
There was also a defensive philosophy change in there to go from a base 4-3 to a 3-4. That requires even more personnel change.
How many players can, and should, a team require per offseason? There is a finite amount of resources. You can only plug so many holes/deficiencies in per single offseason.
We have started the process of building from the inside out. With the exception of Tomlinson, the entire offensive and defensive lines needed to be replaced.
It's cliche, but Rome wasn't built in a day. The defense took a major step forward and we saw some results this year. If the offense can take a similar step forward next year to match the defense, we will finally be in a decent place going forward.
Yes, teams are built to go from worst to first in the NFL. That is the age of parity. But what faced Mara and Gettleman in 2018 was nearly equal to starting an expansion team. They had to build an entire roster. It was, and is, a big job. AGAIN, I concede they failed to recognize the scope. I understand people's frustration with that. But that is where we are now.
Drafted Dexter Lawrence
Traded a 3rd and 5th for Leonard Williams.
Signed a tackling machine at LB in Blake Martinez
Signed an All Pro CB in Bradburry.
Traded for Peppers who played like an All Pro this season
Signed Logan Ryan, great veteran player and leader
Drafted Xavier McKinney
That's acquiring a lot of talent in two offseasons, regardless of what happened with other signings/draft picks! Can we acknowledge that?
Offense next. We need a WR and TE desperately. If we can see it, they can.
This is not plug and play.
They've done terribly.
Also, success and failure in the NFL isn't a neat curve. The Giants are as likely to go 3-13 next year as 9-7.
I want a guy that can see his mistakes and move on from them, not a guy who stubbornly sticks with it and wait for something else to fix it.
And no, Daniel Jones is not an example of that. Yet.
2013: Offense is broken, let’s fix it by bringing in McAdoo and drafting Beckham. Defense then suffers.
2015: The defense stinks, let’s spend $100m on that side of the ball. Offense then suffers.
2016: The defense is great, now we just need to focus on the offense.
2017: Defense takes a step back, the entire team falls off.
Sound familiar? The Giants have been overly focused on one side of the ball for almost a decade. Why should we believe the defense will perform at the same level next year. Just bring in the best players.
They've done terribly.
Also, success and failure in the NFL isn't a neat curve. The Giants are as likely to go 3-13 next year as 9-7.
Who are we talking about? Cleveland? Arizona?
This is going to be a fundamental disagreement here, but I'm still going to say it.
Those franchises are historically inept franchises. They have poor seasons like that ALL THE TIME, beyond their players. Those teams/rosters often had HOF players and just still stunk for whatever reason. Joe Thomas, LT, the most important position on the team arguably, HOF LT. Loser career. Larry Fitzgerald. They had decent rosters in a lot of cases. Those franchises are the teams that the NFL actually created parity for in the first place, and some still struggle to beat their way out of a paper bag. So they hit once in a while. But they always return back to their line. Time will tell if Arizona and Cleveland remain consistent winners.
So I will argue that despite the record, the New York Giants did not start at the same place as those other teams.
You will disagree with that, and will point to the record as being the same. But that's where I'm coming from so we'll just agree to disagree on that.
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It's cliche, but Rome wasn't built in a day. The defense took a major step forward and we saw some results this year. If the offense can take a similar step forward next year to match the defense, we will finally be in a decent place going forward.
2013: Offense is broken, let’s fix it by bringing in McAdoo and drafting Beckham. Defense then suffers.
2015: The defense stinks, let’s spend $100m on that side of the ball. Offense then suffers.
2016: The defense is great, now we just need to focus on the offense.
2017: Defense takes a step back, the entire team falls off.
Sound familiar? The Giants have been overly focused on one side of the ball for almost a decade. Why should we believe the defense will perform at the same level next year. Just bring in the best players.
The trenches, Sean. The core of the team. That was the failure in all of those seasons you mentioned. Only in the past three years have we seen a true commitment to rebuilding those and building from the inside out.