Watching Kelce do a number on the Bills made me think of the Giants drafting Pitts. Kelce looks like an oversized WR with good speed and good hands. He’s not in there to block but do what I imagine Reese thought Engram would do. Now, it helps that he has Mahomes throwing to him and Tyreek Hill and other world class type WRs running routes but Kelce always looks open, often wide open which Engram rarely seems to be. From what I’ve read about Pitts, he sounds like Kelce maybe a little bigger and a little faster. Now, a better version of Kelce, if that is what Pitts is, would probably not last until the 11th pick and I would not give up picks to move up. But, if he is there, .....?
My other thought on Pitts is this. The Giants need help at several positions in no special order including WRs, TE, OL, Edge, and 2nd CB. They could also use help at ILB and RB but these are lesser needs. It’s been said by draft types that the draft is very strong in WRs, DBs and OL and weak at Edge and TE. I don’t know much about the edge rushers only that none seem to be outstanding prospects. Pitts does seem to be. They have a better chance of filling the draft strong positions later in the draft so why not grab the outstanding prospect at a position of need. BPA=Need?
Kelce himself was a 3rd rounder. His senior year at cincy:
Games rec yards avg td
13 45 722 16.0 8
first round TE's have been dart throws. i'd rather get a higher floor player in a different position thats maybe easier to evaluate.
He needs to block well enough though or show that he can turn into a good enough blocker that isn’t a liability
Sorta like kelce, don’t think he is a beast blocker, but good enough I suspect.
But if the Giants decide he can be an adequate blocker, then yes, he would be a big weapon in the passing game, especially in the Red Zone, where we have no ideal target. And I agree that this year, quality WRs will be available on Day 2, so no need to force one.
WR = 16M
TE = 9M
Waller was 238 pounds at the combine. Pitts is around 240 or so. Waller is def the faster player though
On the other hand, maybe (just maybe) if we had a "Hill", maybe EE could be more of a weapon, more productive. So I believe that the Giants will go WR in the first.
What do you mean a player gives away the play construcitoin? I'm assuming you mean when he's in the game you know we are passing the ball.
One - that's not true, he's not a good blocker, but he is better than Engram already and we run the ball with him in there. He's at least competent enough not to blow up plays like Engram does with his blocking
Two - even if this were the case, it doesn't really matter. It's impossible to substitute properly when he's in the game and then you run plays off of that. Whoever is drafting him is going to be able run a ton of very successful audibles.
On the other hand, maybe (just maybe) if we had a "Hill", maybe EE could be more of a weapon, more productive. So I believe that the Giants will go WR in the first.
I call bullshit on this. First of all, in actual fact, Kelce was this productive before they drafted Hill. So, the reality is that even in this case you're wrong. But, I think the principle is wrong too. Bw has mentioned this and I agree, great TEs are much rarer than great WR. Kelce is much harder to find or replace than Hill.
Knowing what you know now, would you draft Kelce in the 1st round?
Shepard is a slot, not sure what we have with Slayton...if he can be the 3rd option....then they must get the guy....
Must get a press man corner.....
And whatever is needed for OL....I only see 2 sure things at LT and C....
Don't reach for an offensive player IF a far better defensive player drops.
Don't reach for an offensive player IF a far better defensive player drops.
+1
BPA no matter what. Talent wins period.
And I worry about tall, lanky guys going over the middle. A big target for the D, not just for the QB.
Seems like RB where it may be smarter to spend a few picks on day 3 over a few years rather than one early pick.
Then again, we could also just go after Gerald Everett in FA...
Brevin Jordan
Pat Freiermuth
Hunter Long
Jeremy Ruckert
I always thought Ebron was overrated. He was fast in a straight-line but did not have nearly the same fluidness as Pitts does. Pitts can line up on corners and get separation. Ebron also had drop issues in college. Pitts doesn't drop anything. And Pitts has the length and vertical advantage over Ebron as well- he consistently wins jump balls vs 2 defenders.
Quote:
... who the Lions picked at No. 10 overall. Freakish measurables (Ebron ran a 4.50 at 252lbs), but basically a jumbo sized WR with only average blocking skills. But maybe Pitts is a better than that. I’m still hung up on scouting Trey Lance ... the riskiest and rawest possible pick, but I think we need a jolt of we’re ever gonna compete with the big boys.
I always thought Ebron was overrated. He was fast in a straight-line but did not have nearly the same fluidness as Pitts does. Pitts can line up on corners and get separation. Ebron also had drop issues in college. Pitts doesn't drop anything. And Pitts has the length and vertical advantage over Ebron as well- he consistently wins jump balls vs 2 defenders.
Watching some clips I see some Plax in Pitts. Plax weighed 232lbs at the combine, so a bit lighter.
Pitts won't make it to 11, almost surely. The media pundits haven't caught on to this yet, but two real draft experts, scouts I have heard opining on various Giants' podcasts, have called this out. One said Pitts will be a top 5 pick, the other said he can't imagine Pitts lasts beyond 8 overall.
The Giants have a much better chance to land Waddle or Smith at 11 than Pitts or Ja'Mar Chase; they will both almost surely be gone.
Pitts should be a run to the podium guy if available... similar to Sewell or Parsons. He's one of the true blue chips in this draft.
Horrible take, he’s nothing like Ebron at all. He’s a lot more fluid, agile, can separate, has a huge catch radius, a red zone machine and last but not least he has some very good hands. Draft him at 11 if he’s there
Pitts will probably be a better player than Engram, but make a list of the top 10 best TEs in the game of the last 40 years...here I'll start:
Tony Gonzalez - 13th overall
Jason Witten - 3rd round 69th overall
Travis Kelce - 3rd round 63rd overall
Rob Gronkowski - 2nd round 42nd overall
Shannon Sharpe - 7th round 192nd overall
Antonio Gates - undrafted
Jimmy Graham - 3rd round 95th overall
Ben Coates - 5th round 124th overall
Ozzie Newsome - 1st round 23rd overall
Kellen Winslow Sr - 1st round 13th overall
I think that's a pretty decent list. None as high as 11, but I'll give you we're splitting hairs with Winslow and Gonzalez, but even then, neither of those teams did much winning with those standout players. Arguably, they would've won less without them, but now look at all the TEs drafted in the first round of the last 25 years:
Hayden Hurst
TJ Hockenson
Noah Fant
O.J. Howard
Evan Engram
David Njoku
Eric Ebron
Tyler Eifert
Jermaine Gresham (I think a lot like Pitts)
Brandon Pettigrew
Dustin Keller
Greg Olsen
Vernon Davis
Marcedes Lewis
Heath Miller
Kellen Winslow Jr
Ben Watson
Dallas Clark
Jeremy Shockey
Daniel Graham
Jerramy Stevens
Todd Heap
Bubba Franks
Anthony Becht
Tony Gonzalez
David LaFleur
Rickey Dudley
Tell me out of that list the number of teams that wish they took someone else with the pick? You might say Olsen and Miller, both of those guys taken at the very end of round 1 (31st and 30th). Gonzalez of course. Maybe Dallas Clark and Watson (a big 'maybe' on those two) and they were both taken late in the first.
Out of that group, here's your picks taken at 11 or earlier:
Hockenson (8th), Ebron (10th), Vernon Davis (6th), Kellen Winslow Jr (6th), Rickey Dudley (9th)
I'd venture to say the only arguable one that was worth that draft slot maybe was Vernon Davis, because he really was a weapon for San Francisco for a few years. But even that one is questionable. All those other teams would rather have taken multiple other players than the TE there.
I don't see the next Tony Gonzalez in Pitts. I just don't think you draft a TE that high in almost any case.
Jason Witten - 3rd round 69th overall
Travis Kelce - 3rd round 63rd overall
Rob Gronkowski - 2nd round 42nd overall
Shannon Sharpe - 7th round 192nd overall
Antonio Gates - undrafted
Jimmy Graham - 3rd round 95th overall
Ben Coates - 5th round 124th overall
Ozzie Newsome - 1st round 23rd overall
Kellen Winslow Sr - 1st round 13th overall
The most apt comparisons to Pitts coming out of college indeed are two guys drafted damn near 11: Kellen Winslow Sr. and Tony Gonzales! Both of whom justified their high draft status... I also heard Pitts compared to Vernon Davis by an NFL scout, but Pitts is more smooth and shifty, if less of a straight line athlete. Pitts runs much better routes than Davis...
As for Gronk being drafted at 42 overall - yeah, because he was coming off a full year of not playing at all following major spinal surgery!
A fully healthy Gronk without a HUGE medical red flag would have been a top ten pick.
Whatever, don't stress yourself, Pitts will be off the board before 11 rolls around. Despite what my mock draft simulations are telling me right now.
Pitts will probably be a better player than Engram, but make a list of the top 10 best TEs in the game of the last 40 years...here I'll start:
Tony Gonzalez - 13th overall
Jason Witten - 3rd round 69th overall
Travis Kelce - 3rd round 63rd overall
Rob Gronkowski - 2nd round 42nd overall
Shannon Sharpe - 7th round 192nd overall
Antonio Gates - undrafted
Jimmy Graham - 3rd round 95th overall
Ben Coates - 5th round 124th overall
Ozzie Newsome - 1st round 23rd overall
Kellen Winslow Sr - 1st round 13th overall
I think that's a pretty decent list. None as high as 11, but I'll give you we're splitting hairs with Winslow and Gonzalez, but even then, neither of those teams did much winning with those standout players. Arguably, they would've won less without them, but now look at all the TEs drafted in the first round of the last 25 years:
Hayden Hurst
TJ Hockenson
Noah Fant
O.J. Howard
Evan Engram
David Njoku
Eric Ebron
Tyler Eifert
Jermaine Gresham (I think a lot like Pitts)
Brandon Pettigrew
Dustin Keller
Greg Olsen
Vernon Davis
Marcedes Lewis
Heath Miller
Kellen Winslow Jr
Ben Watson
Dallas Clark
Jeremy Shockey
Daniel Graham
Jerramy Stevens
Todd Heap
Bubba Franks
Anthony Becht
Tony Gonzalez
David LaFleur
Rickey Dudley
Tell me out of that list the number of teams that wish they took someone else with the pick? You might say Olsen and Miller, both of those guys taken at the very end of round 1 (31st and 30th). Gonzalez of course. Maybe Dallas Clark and Watson (a big 'maybe' on those two) and they were both taken late in the first.
Out of that group, here's your picks taken at 11 or earlier:
Hockenson (8th), Ebron (10th), Vernon Davis (6th), Kellen Winslow Jr (6th), Rickey Dudley (9th)
I'd venture to say the only arguable one that was worth that draft slot maybe was Vernon Davis, because he really was a weapon for San Francisco for a few years. But even that one is questionable. All those other teams would rather have taken multiple other players than the TE there.
I don't see the next Tony Gonzalez in Pitts. I just don't think you draft a TE that high in almost any case.
You said 40 years right? I would take Bavaro over Winslow Jr. any day.
Not so much a lesser need, but one that is easily filled from a shopping list long batch of quality UFAs this year, including our own Wayne Gallman.
He looks more talented than any big receiver I’ve seen in recent memory, including Mike Evans from Mississippi State, who went 7 overall and has had a very successful NFL career.
Funny, I was just looking that up the other day. A third rounder, yes, but also the very first pick in that round -- #63 overall in the 2013 Draft.
Over him. Power and feet. Height and length only issue playing tackle.
Over him. Power and feet. Height and length only issue playing tackle.
I agree. OL is a big need as well, but Pitts is an awesome player. I wouldn’t call a top receiving target a “toy” when the state of our receiving corps is where it is right now.
I know it's an exaggeration, but there are a lot of creative offensive play callers out there who really help their team out then when you add in studs like Hill and Kelce you get unstoppable offenses.
Right now the Giants don't have either
Quote:
Don’t discount a guy like slater. I’m very very high on him at 11. I’m telling you hes going to be a stud. All pro guard written all
Over him. Power and feet. Height and length only issue playing tackle.
I agree. OL is a big need as well, but Pitts is an awesome player. I wouldn’t call a top receiving target a “toy” when the state of our receiving corps is where it is right now.
He’s a toy. He isn’t a dominant blocker. If he was an all around beast. Then I agree he’s not a toy. When you question the guys blocking I don’t want him at 11. What good is a receiving target when we still can’t block at all. The interior of our line is not very good. Hernandez is a question mark to be retained. Zeitler has just this year left. Lemieux looked like hot garbage in pass pro but he’s young. We need a guard desperately. I draft slater plug him immediately at left guard next to Thomas and now you have a mauling left side of the line who can pass block.
Very rarely is taking a TE in rd good value...there's plenty of value later in the draft at that position.
Prefer a WR or a CB, at 11, they will have access to a high level player. Surtain vs Waddle vs Pitts? Pitts is last on that list for me.
I also think Engram is here one more year and I'm fine with that as he will be the 4th or 5th option on offense.
I don't think TE is happening this year, too many needs at WR, Edge, corner.
Pitts may end up being a great player, but if you have guys like Surtain, Parsons or Slater on the board, I don't see how you pass on them for a TE. There are other ways to get reliable receiving playmakers. Top shelf OL or defensive players are harder to come by.
It's been a long while since a rookie TE came in and made a big impact from the jump.
Take the best player available of the WR, ER, CB pool.
Testing Results
40-Yard Dash
4.70
Worst: 5.18Best TE-H: Tommy Tremble 4.63
20-Yard Shuttle
4.45
Worst: 4.76Best TE-H: David Priebe 4.20
Vertical Jump
31.3
Worst: 23.6Best TE-H: Charles Robinson 39.6
Power Throw
41.0
Worst: 32.0Best TE-H: Cameron Jurgens 43.0
espn - ( New Window )
You said 40 years right? I would take Bavaro over Winslow Jr. any day.
So would I, that top 10 included Winslow SR, not Jr. Winslow Sr is a HOF'er.
Quote:
Tony Gonzalez - 13th overall
Jason Witten - 3rd round 69th overall
Travis Kelce - 3rd round 63rd overall
Rob Gronkowski - 2nd round 42nd overall
Shannon Sharpe - 7th round 192nd overall
Antonio Gates - undrafted
Jimmy Graham - 3rd round 95th overall
Ben Coates - 5th round 124th overall
Ozzie Newsome - 1st round 23rd overall
Kellen Winslow Sr - 1st round 13th overall
The most apt comparisons to Pitts coming out of college indeed are two guys drafted damn near 11: Kellen Winslow Sr. and Tony Gonzales! Both of whom justified their high draft status... I also heard Pitts compared to Vernon Davis by an NFL scout, but Pitts is more smooth and shifty, if less of a straight line athlete. Pitts runs much better routes than Davis...
As for Gronk being drafted at 42 overall - yeah, because he was coming off a full year of not playing at all following major spinal surgery!
A fully healthy Gronk without a HUGE medical red flag would have been a top ten pick.
Whatever, don't stress yourself, Pitts will be off the board before 11 rolls around. Despite what my mock draft simulations are telling me right now.
This is the same hype I read about Ebron. I'm sure the Raiders felt the same way about Rickey Dudley, too. I'm sure the Bengals felt that way about Gresham.
What you need to consider is the hit rate on all these first rounders. It's not that there aren't good players out of that list of first rounders, because there are, but even among them there are plenty of positional counterparts around the league that are just as good drafted later. And the biggest success stories in that list are guys drafted at the end of round 1, not near the top.
Top of the 1st round is where you get your premium position players: QB, ER, DT, OT, CB, and WR. And if you deviate from that, which is fine, you better get someone who is not just good, but special. I don't think Pitts is special. Just a big target for the defense to hit in the middle of the field, like the earlier poster suggested. And Gonzalez and Winslow were great players, but there teams didn't win a lot, because the difference between a first round TE and a 4th round TE when it comes to wins and losses is scant.
Testing Results
40-Yard Dash
4.70
Worst: 5.18Best TE-H: Tommy Tremble 4.63
20-Yard Shuttle
4.45
Worst: 4.76Best TE-H: David Priebe 4.20
Vertical Jump
31.3
Worst: 23.6Best TE-H: Charles Robinson 39.6
Power Throw
41.0
Worst: 32.0Best TE-H: Cameron Jurgens 43.0
espn - ( New Window )
That was 3 years ago. I’m curious what his vertical is today. That and 3 come are going to be the most relevant to his game. On the field he had no problem going above everyone else to catch the ball. I’d like to see that In mid 30s. He’s already 6 6 with a longer wingspan for his frame. Shit if he were to jump 40 he’d be a lock for top 5.
Testing Results
40-Yard Dash
4.70
Worst: 5.18Best TE-H: Tommy Tremble 4.63
20-Yard Shuttle
4.45
Worst: 4.76Best TE-H: David Priebe 4.20
Vertical Jump
31.3
Worst: 23.6Best TE-H: Charles Robinson 39.6
Power Throw
41.0
Worst: 32.0Best TE-H: Cameron Jurgens 43.0
espn - ( New Window )
Tommy Tremble should definitely be a target. He wasnt used as much in ND's passing game because when they passed they were looking towards the receivers and Mayer primarily. The guy loves to block tho and he is very athletic.
P.S. Still would rather draft a Dynamic Edge.
Premium positions. Positions of need. The value should be there at both positions.
I dont see Pitts.
As for EDGE, I'm not sure the pick will be there at 11, and I'm not sure the new regime values a top flight ER the way that the previous regime did. Judge and Graham seem to be taking the Patriots approach to pass rush.
I think they will value CB more.
Unless Judge and Gettleman get fired before the draft the giants have a zero percent chance of taking a QB.
I know when and where Bavaro was drafted.
Where does he say the TEs had to be first round picks? His opening statement says "Top TEs in the last 40 years". Then the list he presents has 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th round picks.
What you need to consider is the hit rate on all these first rounders. It's not that there aren't good players out of that list of first rounders, because there are, but even among them there are plenty of positional counterparts around the league that are just as good drafted later>
First re Eric Ebron, when you look at his college stats on the face of them he and Pitts seem comparable for sure. High volume (for TEs) pass catchers that had terrific YPC for their positions - heck, they had very good YPC for WRs.
But its too bad other college stats from Ebron's time aren't readily available, like targets and catch rate, where Pitts is on another planet from Ebron, because Ebron doesn't have great hands.
Catching the ball, including catching the ball vs highly contested situations, is where Pitts really distinguishes himself as a true unicorn. That trait shows up in two stat categories, in both TDs scored and catch %.
Of course Pitts is two inches taller than Ebron, and we'll see some other physical traits emerge as the process continues, like arm length and hand size, but what matters is simple - he catches contested balls in small areas at a ridiculous level of proficiency.
Ebron is closer to Engram than he is to Pitts, and not just alphabetically.
The second flaw I see in your analysis is the historical data re high TE picks. All that goes out the damn window when one is evaluating an individual player, IMO.
And the Giants have erred plenty in that type of thinking IMO. As in, why they didn't select Aaron Donald over OBJ, likely because Donald was "too small" by the metrics the Giants traditionally value for DTs.
It's a flaw not to look at each player as a unique individual, first and foremost.
Anyway, thanks for the debate.
I was actually surprised at Plax's vertical. If Pitts can put up mid 30s I'm rushing to podium personally. I said this last month, but I felt like by the time the draft rolls around he's in the top 5 argument. That or he falls because of the history of tight ends there, and teams look back and wonder what the hell they were thinking. He isn't your typical tight end.
I'm not sure he lasts to us for the very simple I have to think NFL teams see what a subsitution nightware he is and how flexable he makes you on offense. With the new sub rules this is HIGHLY valuable.
Quote:
... who the Lions picked at No. 10 overall. Freakish measurables (Ebron ran a 4.50 at 252lbs), but basically a jumbo sized WR with only average blocking skills. But maybe Pitts is a better than that. I’m still hung up on scouting Trey Lance ... the riskiest and rawest possible pick, but I think we need a jolt of we’re ever gonna compete with the big boys.
Unless Judge and Gettleman get fired before the draft the giants have a zero percent chance of taking a QB.
I’m doing my best to not be one of those annoying posters who drone on about the same thing, over and over ... but man, I hope someone outside of the traditional Mara old school umbrella at least scouts Lance with an open mind. I’ll try to zip it for a few minutes now lol.
Premium positions. Positions of need. The value should be there at both positions.
I dont see Pitts.
As for EDGE, I'm not sure the pick will be there at 11, and I'm not sure the new regime values a top flight ER the way that the previous regime did. Judge and Graham seem to be taking the Patriots approach to pass rush.
I think they will value CB more.
Like a RB at number 2 overall? Stranger things have happened...
GTFO!!!
This football team NEEDS IMPACT PLAYERS.
KYLE PITTS, MICAH PARSONS, JAMAR CHASE, JAYLON WADDLE, DEVONTA SMITH, maybe that Rousseau kid.
Hell Penei Sewell!!!
Not "this position, that position."
Impact players. At least on defense, I have faith our coaches will figure out how to use him.
Maybe even on offense, once a semblance of OL competency is acheived...
Over him. Power and feet. Height and length only issue playing tackle.
Agreed RE: Slater but you gotta make sure he's not a Justin Pugh first. I haven't seen a snap from him. But that's what his scouting report is reading like. (Not athletic enough for T and not powerful enough to be a + Guard.)
p.s.--I loved Mark Bavaro, but the Niners won more games with Brent Jones than the Giants won with Bavaro.
p.s.--I loved Mark Bavaro, but the Niners won more games with Brent Jones than the Giants won with Bavaro.
Good point, Milton. I trust Judge with this one.
p.s.--I loved Mark Bavaro, but the Niners won more games with Brent Jones than the Giants won with Bavaro.
That's very well said. Even if I hate Brent Jones more than Fletch hated Tommy Lasorda.
Have seen a few write-ups and comments lately on him suggesting his blocking skills and techniques improved a good bit in 2020. Not certain if that is accurate, but if the Giants feel the same when they do their evaluations then Pitts' name should be BOLDED in that top tier and call his name out loud and clear on April 29th when they are on the clock.
Mis-match Chess piece - ( New Window )
Mis-match Chess piece - ( New Window )
Great find.