Bonds and Clements dogged by PEDs, Schilling dogged mostly by politics but also being borderline in some minds - all three next year is their last eligible year I believe.
SportsCenter
@SportsCenter
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30s
No players on the 2021 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot reached the necessary 75 percent for induction.
Quote:
...The leading vote-getter was controversial pitcher Curt Schilling, who was named on 71.1 percent of the ballots, 16 votes shy of the minimum needed for selection. Schilling was followed by all-time home run leader Barry Bonds' (61.8 percent) and 354-game winner Roger Clemens (61.6) in the voting....
how arguably the greatest defensive outfielder in baseball history, and thus one of the greatest defensive players in history-- who ALSO hit 434 HRs doesn't make the Hall of Fame.
RE: Honestly it's a joke without Schilling as well
character matters? It's a baseball hall of Fame, not a hall for very nice people who were always great at baseball. If that's part of the selection process, the selection process is a joke. Ty Cobb, from all accounts, wasn't a saint, but he's in.
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
character matters? It's a baseball hall of Fame, not a hall for very nice people who were always great at baseball. If that's part of the selection process, the selection process is a joke. Ty Cobb, from all accounts, wasn't a saint, but he's in.
Wrong.
Quote:
Each Hall of Fame candidate must have been retired for at least five seasons and have played at least ten seasons in major league baseball. Inductees are selected by careful examination of their qualifications, including their playing record, character and integrity.
Bonds is one of the biggest pricks I can recall, but wasn't he a HOFer even before he started juicing? He put monster #s in Pittsburgh & SF before he apparently got jealous of the coverage McGwire & Sosa got & decided to start juicing. It is funny if you look at a picture of Bonds as a Pirate & then compare it to Bonds circa 2001, 2002.
Embarrassing or not, he ain't getting next year as well. Character matters.
Why should character matter and why do writers get to decide what character is good and what character is bad? I guarantee you could dig up a whole bunch of shit on these holier than thou sports writers if you wanted. The Hall of Fame is about BASEBALL. Incredibly flawed people shouldn’t be allowed to castigate others based on personal beliefs when it comes to a shrine that recognizes baseball excellence. This isn’t the Nobel Peace Prize we are debating here
Bonds is one of the biggest pricks I can recall, but wasn't he a HOFer even before he started juicing? He put monster #s in Pittsburgh & SF before he apparently got jealous of the coverage McGwire & Sosa got & decided to start juicing. It is funny if you look at a picture of Bonds as a Pirate & then compare it to Bonds circa 2001, 2002.
yes.. and Clemens was a HoFer before he juiced. Both guys need to be in. ARod as well.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
Embarrassing or not, he ain't getting next year as well. Character matters.
Why should character matter and why do writers get to decide what character is good and what character is bad? I guarantee you could dig up a whole bunch of shit on these holier than thou sports writers if you wanted. The Hall of Fame is about BASEBALL. Incredibly flawed people shouldn’t be allowed to castigate others based on personal beliefs when it comes to a shrine that recognizes baseball excellence. This isn’t the Nobel Peace Prize we are debating here
Agreed. Lots of sanctimonious attitudes at work here...
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
I like him as a pitcher. I wanted the Yankees to get him before he went to Zona. I don't like his public persona, but I'd vote him in, probably. But he can't carry Clemens' jock strap. Clemens belongs alongside Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland, Bob Feller, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove. Schilling is not in that class. Not ever.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Classifying some of Curt’s statements as “politics” is a stretch.
Amazing that his “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required” endorsement may have rubbed some journalists the wrong way when it came time to fill out those ballots. Oh well. Hopefully Eli Manning takes a different approach.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
I like him as a pitcher. I wanted the Yankees to get him before he went to Zona. I don't like his public persona, but I'd vote him in, probably. But he can't carry Clemens' jock strap. Clemens belongs alongside Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland, Bob Feller, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove. Schilling is not in that class. Not ever.
I'm not putting CS in the class of pitchers you listed. They are the elite.
But Schilling was a very, very good regular season pitcher and was 11-2 in the post-season. And he was 3-0 in elimination games with an era below 1.50.
I don't even know if I'm in the minority anymore on this
but I 100% believe Bonds and Clemens both belong in the HoF, no questions asked. If anything, Bonds proved why a bunch of other guys like Ortiz, McGwire, etc. don't belong in. He was a sure fire HoF and potentially the best player ever before he started using. By just about all accounts, he started using because he was jealous of McGwire and Sosa getting all the attention. So, what does he do? Goes out and smashes records.
Him on steroids set himself apart from the rest of the league in a ridiculous fashion not approached since Babe Ruth started hitting full time. Sure, he may have hit less HRs and/or played a year or two less. But, before he used PEDs he was on a career pace of over 600 HRs, to go along with multiple MVPs before use, gold gloves, etc.
Clemens is similar, but not on the same level. He had multiple Cy Youngs and an MVP (didn't deserve that one).
The one guy who I think should not be in is A-Rod. The reason why is there are some reports that have him using as early as HS. Most have him starting no later than his start in Texas. So, most of his career had been tainted by PED use, making it impossible to judge his greatness.
But, in contrast, a guy like Ortiz doesn't even sniff 500 HRs without using. McGwire was a prolific HR hitter out of the gate. But, he likely would have played about 5 years less without using. That is where his using had the biggest impact. Sosa also was nowhere near the power hitter he was once he started using.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Sure is easy to tell you’ live in LA. Preachy, judgemental , sanctimonious fraud that has no problems calling out others for lacking character while being complete disgraces to society while they think nobody is watching. You’ve been hanging out in Hollywood too much, Stan. Scum of the earth.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Sure is easy to tell you’ live in LA. Preachy, judgemental , sanctimonious fraud that has no problems calling out others for lacking character while being complete disgraces to society while they think nobody is watching. You’ve been hanging out in Hollywood too much, Stan. Scum of the earth.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Sure is easy to tell you’ live in LA. Preachy, judgemental , sanctimonious fraud that has no problems calling out others for lacking character while being complete disgraces to society while they think nobody is watching. You’ve been hanging out in Hollywood too much, Stan. Scum of the earth.
I think you could disagree with this gentleman without dissing Los Angeles and making it personal. LA is a great American city. Of course I like New York ( ;) ) more but LA is fantastic, and it has amazing weather. I don't know why you have to go out of your way to bash a whole city.
I always thought he was on the bubble. But, I can see both arguments. On one hand he barely won 200 games and at less than 60%. On the other hand, he has overly impressive post season stats and his WAR are at a very high level. For a comparison, I wonder how you stack up a pitcher against a hitter. I think of a guy like Reggie (who I loved). He got in for his post season play more than anything. Sure, he still needed over 500 HRs, but it is the post season that made him a sure thing. As a pitcher, what win total would Schilling have had to hit to get the same kind of consideration. I think the answer is more than 216.
By contrast, Andy Pettitte has 40 more wins and a higher win percentage, a very good post season performer and is still considered a just miss by most.
Bottom line, I would have no problem with Schilling getting in (even though I can't stand him), but I'm not enraged that he isn't either.
OJ is in the football HOF. Who decides character? That’s so ridiculous. Ty Cobb is in the baseball HOF. Schilling is in because his political opinions conflict with the vast majority of journalists, and it’s bullshit.
The odd part is that the HOF itself is enforcing the rule
Check out this interview with the then President of the HOF who went into great detail on the focus on character and his defense of those already in. In essence, his argument is that you have to use the view of society at the time of the election.
It’s really gonna piss me off if Ortiz gets in and the other roiders don’t.
Ortiz is the barometer. IF he gets in, and it is highly likely, then not voting in Bonds, Clemens, and A-Rod is an absolute joke, as was making Piazza wait. Ortiz really wasn't half the player of any of those guys. Plus, I never understood the fascination with him by the media. He is not a big, lovable teddy bear. He is a jerk and he's been a better case for PEDs than most of the other guys being villified.
OJ is in the football HOF. Who decides character? That’s so ridiculous. Ty Cobb is in the baseball HOF. Schilling is in because his political opinions conflict with the vast majority of journalists, and it’s bullshit.
First, the NFL, or more accurately pro football, has it's own criteria. Second, even looking at that to compare, OJ was in long before he was suspected of murder. When he went into the HoF, he was a wildly popular figure that transcended sport.
Re. Ortiz...I was up in Portsmouth, NH a couple of summers back with some cousins/friends & somehow we got to talking steroids in baseball. It's amazing the lengths Sox fans-which pretty much all of them are-will go to defend Ortiz against PED allegations. And I agree...if he gets in, a total joke.
Wins aside, I think he's clearly a superior pitcher to Pettitte - significantly better ERA, WHIP, K's. It's not that close. I think he compares will with recent guys like Moose and Glavine, and the post-season performances are really big.
That said, I can't get worked up about it that he hasn't gotten in, and probably won't (at least on the writers' ballot). The stuff he's said goes way beyond being political to being offensive and mocking victimized people. That shouldn't keep him out of the HOF, but if he gets punished for being a mean spirited ahole, so be it.
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
Ortiz was considered one of the most well liked players in the league and does a ton for his communities (in the DR and locally) so I guess his character gets him in according to Stan! Oh and A-Rod is a known douche so he's out according to Stan. 🤣🤣🤣.
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
No shit. Point is there are people in sports HOF that have done far shittier things before entering the HOF, and far shittier things after. It’s a sports HOF, not heaven
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
I like him as a pitcher. I wanted the Yankees to get him before he went to Zona. I don't like his public persona, but I'd vote him in, probably. But he can't carry Clemens' jock strap. Clemens belongs alongside Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland, Bob Feller, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove. Schilling is not in that class. Not ever.
I'm not putting CS in the class of pitchers you listed. They are the elite.
But Schilling was a very, very good regular season pitcher and was 11-2 in the post-season. And he was 3-0 in elimination games with an era below 1.50.
That sounds more like the argument that got Jack Morris into the HOF- probably the worst decision among modern SP.
Shilling had a relatively short period of sustained brilliance, about 8 years between the age of 29 and 37. He had some ok to good seasons outside of that, but that the bulk of his HOF case was made in those 8 years.
HOF voters have shied away from short periods of excellence- see Don Mattingly for example. That is why Shillings case is weaker. Yes, in that 8 year period, he was as good as anyone in the game- but it really was 8 years of excellence, not 15 or 20.
That’s why even when we ignore the character clause, his case is not as strong as first appears.
Compare Shilling’s period of excellence with teammate Randy Johnson. Johnson also had a rough start to his career, but put up about 12 years of excellence with several other ok to good seasons. Roger Clemens is also a contemporary and put up many more years of excellence.
Look at Andy Pettitte as well. People forget that Pettitte won 19 post season games- he also won more games than Shilling- but didn’t have the big K totals. He didn’t get in.
Looking at Schilling on performance alone is not a clear cut case. The fact that Clemens is in the same class makes it harder to make that case.
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
A jury did not find him innocent. A jury found him not guilty. A civil jury also found him liable by a preponderance of the evidence, and $33.5 million in damages were awarded
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
The problem is, Schilling is just as right as he is wrong. Sanctimonious is a perfect word for these scumbags. Oooo, you voted for and supported X. But I the intelligent sensitive(lying sack of shit reporter) voted and support Y, so I won't vote you in.
They should have their cards taken away. If they want to keep Clemens and Bonds out for "cheating" through rampant steroids use, that is one thing. Keeping someone out because you disagree politically is absolutely wrong and should be met with immediate and vociferous rebuke..
My opinion is they should all be in. Vast numbers of players were using, they just happened to be the standouts because of their stature.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
The problem is, Schilling is just as right as he is wrong. Sanctimonious is a perfect word for these scumbags. Oooo, you voted for and supported X. But I the intelligent sensitive(lying sack of shit reporter) voted and support Y, so I won't vote you in.
They should have their cards taken away. If they want to keep Clemens and Bonds out for "cheating" through rampant steroids use, that is one thing. Keeping someone out because you disagree politically is absolutely wrong and should be met with immediate and vociferous rebuke..
My opinion is they should all be in. Vast numbers of players were using, they just happened to be the standouts because of their stature.
What cheating have Bonds and Clemens been caught in? Prevailing wisdom is they both used. But, neither failed a drug test.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: OJ got into the HOF in the '80s.
Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
So in this country you're guilty if a jury finds you innocent.
Got it!
No jury found him innocent. Not guilty does not equate to innocence. It just means the jury didn’t find you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt
Correct. This gets way off topic, but that is something often misunderstood and misused, similar to free speech. This is one where we basically all are very confident he did it. But the police and prosecution bungled this case so badly, the correct verdict was actually rendered. They didn't prove it.
Wins aside, I think he's clearly a superior pitcher to Pettitte - significantly better ERA, WHIP, K's. It's not that close. I think he compares will with recent guys like Moose and Glavine, and the post-season performances are really big.
That said, I can't get worked up about it that he hasn't gotten in, and probably won't (at least on the writers' ballot). The stuff he's said goes way beyond being political to being offensive and mocking victimized people. That shouldn't keep him out of the HOF, but if he gets punished for being a mean spirited ahole, so be it.
I don't disagree with you. Mussina was the next guy I would have used, but went with Pettitte as another guy not in.
Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
So in this country you're guilty if a jury finds you innocent.
Got it!
You are laughably stupid. Shriner's should have a fundraiser to fix you like they do for the disabled kids. Utterly worthless when you post any thought at all.
Which used to be a fun listen with Don and Mike making fun of each other, really made a mistake of bringing on Peter Rosenberg. The show is an annoying caricature of its prior self. Rosenberg politicized Schilling not getting voted in for his political beliefs (Schilling is an outspoken conservative and was a Trump supporter). Basically Rosenberg said, "maybe if you didnt feel this way about a certain president and defended the Capitol protest, you would get voted in" Not trying to make it political, but a media voice claiming your career achievements can be made possible by adopting certain beliefs is a horrendpus look no matter where you stand. Him and his stupid, relentless wrestling plugs, horribly loudness about hip hop and the fact that most hip hop figures hate him, he is a mistake for that show.
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Put some more ketchup on that sock Kurt! ;>)
You felt the same about Harry Carson I assume... Carson Tells Hall, Thanks but No Thanks - ( New Window )
I love Harry, but yes I feel EXACTLY the same about anyone who sends a letter to the HOF that essentially states, "I no longer wish to be considered for the HOF because I didn't get in". I think it's a foolish, emotional reaction that's best shared on Twitter or in the YouTube comments section.
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Put some more ketchup on that sock Kurt! ;>)
You felt the same about Harry Carson I assume... Carson Tells Hall, Thanks but No Thanks - ( New Window )
I love Harry, but yes I feel EXACTLY the same about anyone who sends a letter to the HOF that essentially states, "I no longer wish to be considered for the HOF because I didn't get in". I think it's a foolish, emotional reaction that's best shared on Twitter or in the YouTube comments section.
I too, echo this. The Hall is an honor, not metric achieved.
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
Couldn’t agree more. Since when does schilling have to get in so soon? He’s a borderline HOFer. He can wait. Clemens and bonds completely dominated the sport before the steroid shit even surfaced. Roger Clemens? Barry Bonds? No one was better. They should have been in years ago. Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
how arguably the greatest defensive outfielder in baseball history, and thus one of the greatest defensive players in history-- who ALSO hit 434 HRs doesn't make the Hall of Fame.
I still don’t understand how Andruw Jones doesn’t get more support for the HOF. Yeah, his career ended pretty quickly into his 30s but as Paul states he was almost without peer as an OF, in addition to 434 HRs.
how arguably the greatest defensive outfielder in baseball history, and thus one of the greatest defensive players in history-- who ALSO hit 434 HRs doesn't make the Hall of Fame.
I still don’t understand how Andruw Jones doesn’t get more support for the HOF. Yeah, his career ended pretty quickly into his 30s but as Paul states he was almost without peer as an OF, in addition to 434 HRs.
As a Mets fan, I agree 100%. Andruw Jones is a 100% a HOFer. That many HR from a Gold Glove CF is pretty rare
That sounds more like the argument that got Jack Morris into the HOF- probably the worst decision among modern SP.
Shilling had a relatively short period of sustained brilliance, about 8 years between the age of 29 and 37. He had some ok to good seasons outside of that, but that the bulk of his HOF case was made in those 8 years.
HOF voters have shied away from short periods of excellence- see Don Mattingly for example. That is why Shillings case is weaker. Yes, in that 8 year period, he was as good as anyone in the game- but it really was 8 years of excellence, not 15 or 20.
That’s why even when we ignore the character clause, his case is not as strong as first appears.
Compare Shilling’s period of excellence with teammate Randy Johnson. Johnson also had a rough start to his career, but put up about 12 years of excellence with several other ok to good seasons. Roger Clemens is also a contemporary and put up many more years of excellence.
Look at Andy Pettitte as well. People forget that Pettitte won 19 post season games- he also won more games than Shilling- but didn’t have the big K totals. He didn’t get in.
Looking at Schilling on performance alone is not a clear cut case. The fact that Clemens is in the same class makes it harder to make that case.
Pettitte can't touch Schilling in the post-season. Schilling was 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA. And when there was an elimination game, he was 5-0 with a 1.34 ERA.
You do realize Schilling is one of four pitchers in history with 300K+ strikeouts in three seasons?
He has 216 wins with an ERA of 3.46, mostly in the steroid era. And a .50 ERA better than Jack Morris. Who can't touch Schilling either.
Schilling led the league twice in wins with 22 and 21. And finished second on year with 23. In led the league in complete games four times. In led the league in strikeouts two times. He finished 2nd in the Cy Young three times. He won 15 or more eight times.
He's a multi World Series winner to boot...
He's better than Mike Musina, who recently got in.
based on his numbers. And character should not be a criteria - way too subjective. But read Schilling's comments today. Wholly apart from whatever his political beliefs are, the man appears to be a world-class asshole.
for the reasons stated. Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, many others - without getting into it, these were not choirboys. And then there's "greenies" - roids were not the first drug of choice in MLB. But Bonds and Clemens were already HOF quality before the roids era began.
Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Bonds and Clemens were certainly HOF quality before the roid era,
but that doesn't mean they belong in. What if they got caught throwing games, do they still belong in because they were HOF quality before that misdeed? Voters aren't voting against them because they think they wouldn't have been good enough without roids. They are doing so because they believe that such a misdeed is itself disqualifying (just as throwing games would be). Whether they SHOULD be keeping them out on that basis is a debatable point.
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
Couldn’t agree more. Since when does schilling have to get in so soon? He’s a borderline HOFer. He can wait. Clemens and bonds completely dominated the sport before the steroid shit even surfaced. Roger Clemens? Barry Bonds? No one was better. They should have been in years ago. Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
Schilling (like Bonds and Clemens) only have one more year of ballot eligibility. What is this "so soon" stuff?
I agree Bonds and Clemens both should be in, they're among the greatest to ever play the game. They have not been voted in to this point because of PEDs. IOW, they cheated. To argue to the voters who vote against them saying "they were HOFers before they cheated" is a specious argument. Neither has ever come clean about their usage.
I don't agree with the voters, but if (and it's a big if) the voters are consistent and don't vote for Ortiz, Arod, Manny, Sosa, McGwire, etc. then at least I feel like there is some tangible principle (I think the PED no voters are sanctimonious assholes, but it's at least a reason).
Schilling is completely different.
if you think his numbers qualify him, he's basically being kept out for being an asshole and/or having different political views than the voters. Completely different than Bonds and Clemens. If Schilling kept his mouth shut (like Mussina) he would have probably been voted in before Mussina - and that is bullshit IMO. the HOF voters should not be the arbiters of character in this manner.
for being assholes. Schilling isn’t the first or the last. How else does one explain all zero of Albert Belle’s MVP Awards?
Fair, but annual award votes are player vs player, so even though a voter may be biased against an asshole player (like Belle) the voter can rationalize it to get themselves to believe another player had a better year.
The HOF is not player vs player per se (unless the voter uses all 10 ballot votes).
I this case for Schilling it's simply I'm not voting for him because I don't like him. And I think that's bullshit.
And for the record, I don't care if Schilling ever gets in, I just hate the sanctimonious holier than thou asshole voters.
Maybe he'll be like Jim Rice, another player I read the voters didn't like, who got in I believe on his final ballot appearance. But I think next year the ballot gets crowded so it's a longshot.
The greatest football player ever IMO, but let’s face it. He’s kind of a piece of shit.
The Baseball Hall of Fame includes character as a factor, the Pro Football Hall of Fame doesn't. It's as simple as that. If OJ had been a baseball player I highly doubt he would be in.
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
Couldn’t agree more. Since when does schilling have to get in so soon? He’s a borderline HOFer. He can wait. Clemens and bonds completely dominated the sport before the steroid shit even surfaced. Roger Clemens? Barry Bonds? No one was better. They should have been in years ago. Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
Schilling (like Bonds and Clemens) only have one more year of ballot eligibility. What is this "so soon" stuff?
I agree Bonds and Clemens both should be in, they're among the greatest to ever play the game. They have not been voted in to this point because of PEDs. IOW, they cheated. To argue to the voters who vote against them saying "they were HOFers before they cheated" is a specious argument. Neither has ever come clean about their usage.
I don't agree with the voters, but if (and it's a big if) the voters are consistent and don't vote for Ortiz, Arod, Manny, Sosa, McGwire, etc. then at least I feel like there is some tangible principle (I think the PED no voters are sanctimonious assholes, but it's at least a reason).
Schilling is completely different.
if you think his numbers qualify him, he's basically being kept out for being an asshole and/or having different political views than the voters. Completely different than Bonds and Clemens. If Schilling kept his mouth shut (like Mussina) he would have probably been voted in before Mussina - and that is bullshit IMO. the HOF voters should not be the arbiters of character in this manner.
I wouldn't agree with it, but you are right that if they are consistent, at least that is something. But, we all know Ortiz is getting in, which is where this becomes ridiculous. With Bonds and Clemens, they never failed a test. Ortiz did.
As for the argument that they were HoF before they used, I can understand where you are coming from. I say it only to distinguish them from players who were borderline or worse and them saw careers take off unnaturally for enough years to put them over the top.
But, like you say, if the voters will be consistent and not vote for anyone suspected of use, then that is one thing. But, where do you draw the line? Is everyone from that era under suspiscion? I have long said the only player who would shock me to learn they were using is Rivera. Everyone else wouldn't faze me. With no failed tests for Bonds and Clemens, though, how are they viewed worse than some who actually failed tests?
Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
I don't think he was better. Mussina has 53 more wins (in 2 less years), higher winning percentage, higher WAR, multiple Gold Gloves,
Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
I don't think he was better. Mussina has 53 more wins (in 2 less years), higher winning percentage, higher WAR, multiple Gold Gloves,
The greatest football player ever IMO, but let’s face it. He’s kind of a piece of shit.
The Baseball Hall of Fame includes character as a factor, the Pro Football Hall of Fame doesn't. It's as simple as that. If OJ had been a baseball player I highly doubt he would be in.
I understand that. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with it. And doesn’t mean I agree that having different political opinions from journalists is poor character either
Anyone who doubts that we are now at a point where people are being censored or cancelled based on their political affiliations is living under a rock.
a baseball HOF without Bonds and Clemens is a total joke.
They both damaged the reputation of the game. Sucks, but they used performance enhancing drugs which is cheating. The sad part is that both had HOF talent without the enhancers.
RE: Honestly it's a joke without Schilling as well
a baseball HOF without Bonds and Clemens is a total joke.
They both damaged the reputation of the game. Sucks, but they used performance enhancing drugs which is cheating. The sad part is that both had HOF talent without the enhancers.
The problem with going down that rabbit hole is the selective outrage at who cheated.
There are many HoF'ers who used enhancements and steroids. The difference is that some of them are "good guys" or they admitted fault.
Another puzzling part about Papi. He's not been contrite because he's never admitted to cheating.
a baseball HOF without Bonds and Clemens is a total joke.
They both damaged the reputation of the game. Sucks, but they used performance enhancing drugs which is cheating. The sad part is that both had HOF talent without the enhancers.
The problem with going down that rabbit hole is the selective outrage at who cheated.
There are many HoF'ers who used enhancements and steroids. The difference is that some of them are "good guys" or they admitted fault.
Another puzzling part about Papi. He's not been contrite because he's never admitted to cheating.
These points are exactly true. Either nobody is in, or every one is in. And who one voted for is never to be considered because that crap works both ways.
for comparison, Jeter was at 71.3 and was 1 vote short of unanimous. Rivera was unanimous at 56.3
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
a baseball HOF without Bonds and Clemens is a total joke.
They both damaged the reputation of the game. Sucks, but they used performance enhancing drugs which is cheating. The sad part is that both had HOF talent without the enhancers.
The problem with going down that rabbit hole is the selective outrage at who cheated.
There are many HoF'ers who used enhancements and steroids. The difference is that some of them are "good guys" or they admitted fault.
Another puzzling part about Papi. He's not been contrite because he's never admitted to cheating.
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Well, those guys are poor comparisons because they (rightly in my opinion) weren't considered HOF worthy by the writers. Schilling belongs in, but it's not because the veterans committee made mistakes on some inferior players.
massive segregationist and piece of shit. Oh, the irony.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
How many years has schilling been on the ballot? 7?
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Well, those guys are poor comparisons because they (rightly in my opinion) weren't considered HOF worthy by the writers. Schilling belongs in, but it's not because the veterans committee made mistakes on some inferior players.
I understand that. They are still in the HOF. I picked those two because they are well known, and shows that Schilling's WAR is the equivalent of two HOFers combined, no matter how they got in. Schilling is a no doubt HOFer.
is a joke and I do hate the double standard with which he's considered, but the "F-Bomb" I have no issue with.
Yes, it was on live TV, uncensored, and with kids watching, but maybe it's a Boston thing why I don't hate he said it (and I hate all Boston sports teams except the Celtics), but I had family run that marathon, many watching my cousin finish directly in the spot that was bombed (luckily for us he finished well before the bomb). So it's personal for me.
Anyway, Ortiz spoke from the heart before they took the field for the first home game after Patriots Day, uncensored, and said "...this is our fucking city. Nobody is going to dictate our freedom. We will not be intimidated"
and it was the only time I liked him.
So, hate Ortiz all you want, hate the double standard, don't hate the F-bomb or that he wasn't chastised for using it, it was the perfect words at the right time.
IMO.
and he shouldn't be in the HOF, definitely not before Arod, Clemens, Bonds, etc.
RE: the character clause was put in by Kennesaw Mountain Landis
massive segregationist and piece of shit. Oh, the irony.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
Jeff Kent belongs
Isn't there precedent for unlikeable people in the HOF?
Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
I don't think he was better. Mussina has 53 more wins (in 2 less years), higher winning percentage, higher WAR, multiple Gold Gloves,
I don't put a lot of emphasis on wins. Schilling came into the league as a relief guy/set-up for his first 3-4 years, so that probably impacts his win total. The WARs are close. But Mussina is slightly better.
But Schilling had more Ks, better ERA, better WHiP, and was just one of the greatest pitchers ever in the playoffs. Mussina was okay, but not in that stratosphere. And it's not like Schilling has a small playoff sample. It's robust with some of the best outings ever. With awards to compliment it - World Series MVP.
If I need a big game to win, I'm not choosing Mussina. I think most fans of baseball are going Schilling.
I get all the steriod arguments, but IMO Clemens and Bonds
have to be in. Its a sham if they are not, even put them in with a footnote if you have to, but there are arguably two of the greatest of all time. Plus I do subscribe to the theory that a lot of players were doing it, so it was a generational baseball thing not a specific player thing.
Schilling I'm less enthused about.
RE: the character clause was put in by Kennesaw Mountain Landis
massive segregationist and piece of shit. Oh, the irony.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
All three of these players are hard evaluations because they had excellent primes, but huge dropoffs at some point in their 30s.
RE: RE: the character clause was put in by Kennesaw Mountain Landis
massive segregationist and piece of shit. Oh, the irony.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
Jeff Kent belongs
Ehh, I lean no on Kent. I think Chase Utley was significantly better and I already see the writing on the wall for Utley. And as far as infielders go, Scott Rolen far more deserving as well.
RE: Isn't there precedent for unlikeable people in the HOF?
1. Stats (like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries
2. Accolades (again like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries)
3. Rings
If you don't have one of the three, the other two better be overwhelming
Belle has stats and accolades, no rings, and his stats aren't better enough vs his contemporaries (Juan Gonzalez for example), so to overcome his unlikability he needs to be overwhelming.
Schilling is, Belle is not. IMO. If Belle got in I would say it's a travesty, but he falls short in my vote.
1. Stats (like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries
2. Accolades (again like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries)
3. Rings
If you don't have one of the three, the other two better be overwhelming
Belle has stats and accolades, no rings, and his stats aren't better enough vs his contemporaries (Juan Gonzalez for example), so to overcome his unlikability he needs to be overwhelming.
Schilling is, Belle is not. IMO. If Belle got in I would say it's a travesty, but he falls short in my vote.
pjcas - Outside his post season, nothing is that exemplary. 216 wins in 20 seasons is not special. Less than a 60% WP is not special. 0 Cy Youngs, 0 Gold Gloves. He was a very good, not great pitcher who had a couple of great seasons and had great post seasons.
based on his numbers. And character should not be a criteria - way too subjective. But read Schilling's comments today. Wholly apart from whatever his political beliefs are, the man appears to be a world-class asshole.
belongs in the HOF per the #'s then that's up to you.
I do.
My point was he should not be kept out because people don't like him.
to me he satisfies the three pillars I named:
He has the stats:
He led the league in wins multiple times
He led the league strikeouts multiple times, eclipsing 300 k's 3 different times (15th in career strikeouts)
He led the league in WHIP multiple times (he's had entire 200+ inning seasons where he allowed sub 1 WHIPs), etc.
He led the league in complete games 4 times (in the top 10 11 times)
He led the league in K/BB ratio 5 times (8th all time)
He is 65th all time in WAR (26th for pitchers) - that 65 is a list that includes pitchers and batters. 65th. Ahead of hall of famers like Jeter, Smoltz, Jim Palmer, Don Sutton, etc.
And wins is something as a Mets fan I have come around on being overrated for a pitcher evaluation. Jake deGrom won 2 CY Youngs without winning more than 11 games either time.
He has the accolades:
NLCS MVP
WS MVP
4 top 5 CY Young finishes, 3 2nd place finishes
6X all-star
He has the rings:
3 World Series rings (with two teams).
If that resume doesn't satisfy you, as long as you are consistent then fine, but don't keep him out because of his political view or lack of intelligence or because he's an asshole. That is my point.
belongs in the HOF per the #'s then that's up to you.
I do.
My point was he should not be kept out because people don't like him.
to me he satisfies the three pillars I named:
He has the stats:
He led the league in wins multiple times
He led the league strikeouts multiple times, eclipsing 300 k's 3 different times (15th in career strikeouts)
He led the league in WHIP multiple times (he's had entire 200+ inning seasons where he allowed sub 1 WHIPs), etc.
He led the league in complete games 4 times (in the top 10 11 times)
He led the league in K/BB ratio 5 times (8th all time)
He is 65th all time in WAR (26th for pitchers) - that 65 is a list that includes pitchers and batters. 65th. Ahead of hall of famers like Jeter, Smoltz, Jim Palmer, Don Sutton, etc.
And wins is something as a Mets fan I have come around on being overrated for a pitcher evaluation. Jake deGrom won 2 CY Youngs without winning more than 11 games either time.
He has the accolades:
NLCS MVP
WS MVP
4 top 5 CY Young finishes, 3 2nd place finishes
6X all-star
He has the rings:
3 World Series rings (with two teams).
If that resume doesn't satisfy you, as long as you are consistent then fine, but don't keep him out because of his political view or lack of intelligence or because he's an asshole. That is my point.
I completely respect that view. As I said yesterday, I could go either way on him getting in. I don't think his stats are a slam dunk, but they are close. I do agree that wins are not the end all to judging a pitcher, but it is a stat that many (most?) voters go to almost immediately. It is like HRs for hitters. They have a golden number in their minds, right or wrong.
I also agree that the only thing to keep him out should be that as a voter you just don't think his play warranted it. I think it is being oversimplified here as not getting in due to his political views. I don't buy that. He's not the first conservative to get into the HoF. However, he is a very controversial and outspoken figure who has said some extreme things. That is where I think he is getting hurt.
I 100% understand why baseball writers don't like Schilling. It's not "just" politics, it's the fact that he tweeted about and liked a shirt that promoted violence to media members. He's just a piece of trash.
That being said, he's easily a HOFer in my book. One of the best big game pitchers ever. The 1-2 duo of Johnson/Schilling is hands down the best duo I've seen in my years of watching baseball, and it's really not close. It's amazing the Yanks even had a chance to win that '01 World Series going up against those 2 monsters.
I'd take Schilling over Mussina, although maybe I'm underrating Moose's Baltimore years in a brutal roided out AL East.
for comparison, Jeter was at 71.3 and was 1 vote short of unanimous. Rivera was unanimous at 56.3
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Just because Schilling has a higher WAR than Jeter, doesn’t make him a better baseball player than Derek Jeter. Jeter was a no doubt first ballot Hall of Famer, Schilling is debatable. Great postseason pitcher, but his regular season numbers aren’t a slam dunk Hall of Famer.
for comparison, Jeter was at 71.3 and was 1 vote short of unanimous. Rivera was unanimous at 56.3
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Just because Schilling has a higher WAR than Jeter, doesn’t make him a better baseball player than Derek Jeter. Jeter was a no doubt first ballot Hall of Famer, Schilling is debatable. Great postseason pitcher, but his regular season numbers aren’t a slam dunk Hall of Famer.
because too much emphasis is placed on a pitcher's W-L record when the reality is that a pitcher only has so much control over the outcomes of games. The three things a pitcher can best control are strikeouts, walks, and home runs. And when it comes to that, Schilling was a great pitcher with some rather dominant seasons. Of course there are other things to look at as well. Was he in the Pedro/Randy/Clemens/Maddux tier? No, but he's right there with Mussina/Smoltz/Glavine
I can't stand the guy and am happy to see him get some bad karma after all of the awful things that he has said and done over the years, but when it comes to performance between the lines, he he was a fantastic pitcher whose name is one of the first mentioned when thinking about postseason performance.
hypocritical thing about the Hall is the attitude of some of the voters. There has been at least one Boston area voter who has said he will vote for Ortiz and will never vote for Bonds, Clemens or A-Rod.
Proud of his hypocrisy enough to state it publically
hypocritical thing about the Hall is the attitude of some of the voters. There has been at least one Boston area voter who has said he will vote for Ortiz and will never vote for Bonds, Clemens or A-Rod.
Proud of his hypocrisy enough to state it publically
Sean McAdam (Boston sportswriter) said he wouldn't vote for Piazza (because of bacne) but planned to vote for Ortiz and he said that proudly and publicly in a twitter response to me.
Tony Massarotti (Boston sports radio/newspaper personality) responded to me on twitter he wasn't voting for Piazza because he didn't think his numbers warranted inclusion, not because of PED's (LOL) but planned to vote for Ortis first time he was eligible.
Being recognized by other people typically requires not being a huckster, sham, asshole. And it definitely doesn’t help when you thumbs up the idea of murdering the people who do the honoring.
Schilling isn’t be marginalized for his politics, he’s being left off the guest list because he’s an insane asshole.
did he lift anything other than a spoon, knife, and fork?
Because it never looked like a Pillsbury Doughboy of the Dominican Republic EVER lifted a weight...
He certainly did something to transform from his alter-ego David Arias into a HOF candidate. The Twins, who were about as good as any franchise in MLB in identifying talent in the early '00s, let him go, and it wasn't especially shocking at the time - he was a pretty good but nothing special platoon bat.
And then he landed in a Boston clubhouse that had a number of guys who were conveniently skipped over in the Mitchell Report and goes on to have a HOF career while his body balloons in a way that typically happens more in Stamford at WWE HQ. Could be that he discovered clam chowder and the delicious pasta on the north end, or it could be that he got a little extra help along the way.
The only people who willfully ignore the very strong likelihood of Ortiz being a juicer are Sox fans and NESN talking heads, and even they, in their heart of hearts, know that his fairy tale story is mostly inflated.
did he lift anything other than a spoon, knife, and fork?
Because it never looked like a Pillsbury Doughboy of the Dominican Republic EVER lifted a weight...
He certainly did something to transform from his alter-ego David Arias into a HOF candidate. The Twins, who were about as good as any franchise in MLB in identifying talent in the early '00s, let him go, and it wasn't especially shocking at the time - he was a pretty good but nothing special platoon bat.
And then he landed in a Boston clubhouse that had a number of guys who were conveniently skipped over in the Mitchell Report and goes on to have a HOF career while his body balloons in a way that typically happens more in Stamford at WWE HQ. Could be that he discovered clam chowder and the delicious pasta on the north end, or it could be that he got a little extra help along the way.
The only people who willfully ignore the very strong likelihood of Ortiz being a juicer are Sox fans and NESN talking heads, and even they, in their heart of hearts, know that his fairy tale story is mostly inflated.
Ummm...he actually failed a test also. And ESPN and the rest of the national media also seem to ignore that he failed and almost certainly used for many years.
Schilling, Bonds, then Clemens top 3.
Bonds and Clements dogged by PEDs, Schilling dogged mostly by politics but also being borderline in some minds - all three next year is their last eligible year I believe.
SportsCenter
@SportsCenter
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No players on the 2021 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot reached the necessary 75 percent for induction.
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Scott Rolen looks like he'll probably get in in a few years.
Agreed
Correct
Embarrassing or not, he ain't getting next year as well. Character matters.
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that Schilling is being put through this.
Embarrassing or not, he ain't getting next year as well. Character matters.
I agree he likely won't get in.
He doesn't have a character problem. His problem is his political viewpoint doesn't match up.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
You're beyond stupid.
Wrong.
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Quote:
that Schilling is being put through this.
Embarrassing or not, he ain't getting next year as well. Character matters.
Why should character matter and why do writers get to decide what character is good and what character is bad? I guarantee you could dig up a whole bunch of shit on these holier than thou sports writers if you wanted. The Hall of Fame is about BASEBALL. Incredibly flawed people shouldn’t be allowed to castigate others based on personal beliefs when it comes to a shrine that recognizes baseball excellence. This isn’t the Nobel Peace Prize we are debating here
yes.. and Clemens was a HoFer before he juiced. Both guys need to be in. ARod as well.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
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In comment 15135218 bw in dc said:
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that Schilling is being put through this.
Embarrassing or not, he ain't getting next year as well. Character matters.
Why should character matter and why do writers get to decide what character is good and what character is bad? I guarantee you could dig up a whole bunch of shit on these holier than thou sports writers if you wanted. The Hall of Fame is about BASEBALL. Incredibly flawed people shouldn’t be allowed to castigate others based on personal beliefs when it comes to a shrine that recognizes baseball excellence. This isn’t the Nobel Peace Prize we are debating here
Agreed. Lots of sanctimonious attitudes at work here...
Schilling was a big game pitcher no doubt.
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is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
I like him as a pitcher. I wanted the Yankees to get him before he went to Zona. I don't like his public persona, but I'd vote him in, probably. But he can't carry Clemens' jock strap. Clemens belongs alongside Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland, Bob Feller, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove. Schilling is not in that class. Not ever.
This 'character' component is so F'ing lame.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
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Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
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Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Well that seals it, he's getting in.
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In comment 15135242 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Well that seals it, he's getting in.
Wanna bet?
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
I like him as a pitcher. I wanted the Yankees to get him before he went to Zona. I don't like his public persona, but I'd vote him in, probably. But he can't carry Clemens' jock strap. Clemens belongs alongside Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland, Bob Feller, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove. Schilling is not in that class. Not ever.
I'm not putting CS in the class of pitchers you listed. They are the elite.
But Schilling was a very, very good regular season pitcher and was 11-2 in the post-season. And he was 3-0 in elimination games with an era below 1.50.
Him on steroids set himself apart from the rest of the league in a ridiculous fashion not approached since Babe Ruth started hitting full time. Sure, he may have hit less HRs and/or played a year or two less. But, before he used PEDs he was on a career pace of over 600 HRs, to go along with multiple MVPs before use, gold gloves, etc.
Clemens is similar, but not on the same level. He had multiple Cy Youngs and an MVP (didn't deserve that one).
The one guy who I think should not be in is A-Rod. The reason why is there are some reports that have him using as early as HS. Most have him starting no later than his start in Texas. So, most of his career had been tainted by PED use, making it impossible to judge his greatness.
But, in contrast, a guy like Ortiz doesn't even sniff 500 HRs without using. McGwire was a prolific HR hitter out of the gate. But, he likely would have played about 5 years less without using. That is where his using had the biggest impact. Sosa also was nowhere near the power hitter he was once he started using.
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Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Sure is easy to tell you’ live in LA. Preachy, judgemental , sanctimonious fraud that has no problems calling out others for lacking character while being complete disgraces to society while they think nobody is watching. You’ve been hanging out in Hollywood too much, Stan. Scum of the earth.
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In comment 15135242 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Sure is easy to tell you’ live in LA. Preachy, judgemental , sanctimonious fraud that has no problems calling out others for lacking character while being complete disgraces to society while they think nobody is watching. You’ve been hanging out in Hollywood too much, Stan. Scum of the earth.
Pot, meet kettle
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In comment 15135242 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Sure is easy to tell you’ live in LA. Preachy, judgemental , sanctimonious fraud that has no problems calling out others for lacking character while being complete disgraces to society while they think nobody is watching. You’ve been hanging out in Hollywood too much, Stan. Scum of the earth.
I think you could disagree with this gentleman without dissing Los Angeles and making it personal. LA is a great American city. Of course I like New York ( ;) ) more but LA is fantastic, and it has amazing weather. I don't know why you have to go out of your way to bash a whole city.
By contrast, Andy Pettitte has 40 more wins and a higher win percentage, a very good post season performer and is still considered a just miss by most.
Bottom line, I would have no problem with Schilling getting in (even though I can't stand him), but I'm not enraged that he isn't either.
Why character clause is enforced - ( New Window )
Brace yourself, because there's no if about it.
That said, I can't get worked up about it that he hasn't gotten in, and probably won't (at least on the writers' ballot). The stuff he's said goes way beyond being political to being offensive and mocking victimized people. That shouldn't keep him out of the HOF, but if he gets punished for being a mean spirited ahole, so be it.
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
Character matters 😂😂😂😂
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
Didn't Carson do something familiar with NFL?
No shit. Point is there are people in sports HOF that have done far shittier things before entering the HOF, and far shittier things after. It’s a sports HOF, not heaven
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I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
I like him as a pitcher. I wanted the Yankees to get him before he went to Zona. I don't like his public persona, but I'd vote him in, probably. But he can't carry Clemens' jock strap. Clemens belongs alongside Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland, Bob Feller, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove. Schilling is not in that class. Not ever.
I'm not putting CS in the class of pitchers you listed. They are the elite.
But Schilling was a very, very good regular season pitcher and was 11-2 in the post-season. And he was 3-0 in elimination games with an era below 1.50.
That sounds more like the argument that got Jack Morris into the HOF- probably the worst decision among modern SP.
Shilling had a relatively short period of sustained brilliance, about 8 years between the age of 29 and 37. He had some ok to good seasons outside of that, but that the bulk of his HOF case was made in those 8 years.
HOF voters have shied away from short periods of excellence- see Don Mattingly for example. That is why Shillings case is weaker. Yes, in that 8 year period, he was as good as anyone in the game- but it really was 8 years of excellence, not 15 or 20.
That’s why even when we ignore the character clause, his case is not as strong as first appears.
Compare Shilling’s period of excellence with teammate Randy Johnson. Johnson also had a rough start to his career, but put up about 12 years of excellence with several other ok to good seasons. Roger Clemens is also a contemporary and put up many more years of excellence.
Look at Andy Pettitte as well. People forget that Pettitte won 19 post season games- he also won more games than Shilling- but didn’t have the big K totals. He didn’t get in.
Looking at Schilling on performance alone is not a clear cut case. The fact that Clemens is in the same class makes it harder to make that case.
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
HAHAHA! Typical response. What a jerk.
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Put some more ketchup on that sock Kurt! ;>)
Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
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Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
So in this country you're guilty if a jury finds you innocent.
Got it!
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He killed Nicole & Ron in '94.
Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
A jury did not find him innocent. A jury found him not guilty. A civil jury also found him liable by a preponderance of the evidence, and $33.5 million in damages were awarded
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In comment 15135312 Stan in LA said:
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Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
So in this country you're guilty if a jury finds you innocent.
Got it!
No jury found him innocent. Not guilty does not equate to innocence. It just means the jury didn’t find you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt
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@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Put some more ketchup on that sock Kurt! ;>)
You felt the same about Harry Carson I assume...
Carson Tells Hall, Thanks but No Thanks - ( New Window )
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Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
The problem is, Schilling is just as right as he is wrong. Sanctimonious is a perfect word for these scumbags. Oooo, you voted for and supported X. But I the intelligent sensitive(lying sack of shit reporter) voted and support Y, so I won't vote you in.
They should have their cards taken away. If they want to keep Clemens and Bonds out for "cheating" through rampant steroids use, that is one thing. Keeping someone out because you disagree politically is absolutely wrong and should be met with immediate and vociferous rebuke..
My opinion is they should all be in. Vast numbers of players were using, they just happened to be the standouts because of their stature.
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In comment 15135242 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
The problem is, Schilling is just as right as he is wrong. Sanctimonious is a perfect word for these scumbags. Oooo, you voted for and supported X. But I the intelligent sensitive(lying sack of shit reporter) voted and support Y, so I won't vote you in.
They should have their cards taken away. If they want to keep Clemens and Bonds out for "cheating" through rampant steroids use, that is one thing. Keeping someone out because you disagree politically is absolutely wrong and should be met with immediate and vociferous rebuke..
My opinion is they should all be in. Vast numbers of players were using, they just happened to be the standouts because of their stature.
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In comment 15135313 Mad Mike said:
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In comment 15135312 Stan in LA said:
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Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
So in this country you're guilty if a jury finds you innocent.
Got it!
No jury found him innocent. Not guilty does not equate to innocence. It just means the jury didn’t find you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt
Got it!
The Double-Down!
It's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see if it works out.
That said, I can't get worked up about it that he hasn't gotten in, and probably won't (at least on the writers' ballot). The stuff he's said goes way beyond being political to being offensive and mocking victimized people. That shouldn't keep him out of the HOF, but if he gets punished for being a mean spirited ahole, so be it.
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In comment 15135312 Stan in LA said:
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Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
So in this country you're guilty if a jury finds you innocent.
Got it!
You are laughably stupid. Shriner's should have a fundraiser to fix you like they do for the disabled kids. Utterly worthless when you post any thought at all.
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In comment 15135287 Ira said:
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@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Put some more ketchup on that sock Kurt! ;>)
You felt the same about Harry Carson I assume... Carson Tells Hall, Thanks but No Thanks - ( New Window )
I love Harry, but yes I feel EXACTLY the same about anyone who sends a letter to the HOF that essentially states, "I no longer wish to be considered for the HOF because I didn't get in". I think it's a foolish, emotional reaction that's best shared on Twitter or in the YouTube comments section.
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In comment 15135310 Jim in Tampa said:
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In comment 15135287 Ira said:
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@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Put some more ketchup on that sock Kurt! ;>)
You felt the same about Harry Carson I assume... Carson Tells Hall, Thanks but No Thanks - ( New Window )
I love Harry, but yes I feel EXACTLY the same about anyone who sends a letter to the HOF that essentially states, "I no longer wish to be considered for the HOF because I didn't get in". I think it's a foolish, emotional reaction that's best shared on Twitter or in the YouTube comments section.
I too, echo this. The Hall is an honor, not metric achieved.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
Couldn’t agree more. Since when does schilling have to get in so soon? He’s a borderline HOFer. He can wait. Clemens and bonds completely dominated the sport before the steroid shit even surfaced. Roger Clemens? Barry Bonds? No one was better. They should have been in years ago. Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
I still don’t understand how Andruw Jones doesn’t get more support for the HOF. Yeah, his career ended pretty quickly into his 30s but as Paul states he was almost without peer as an OF, in addition to 434 HRs.
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how arguably the greatest defensive outfielder in baseball history, and thus one of the greatest defensive players in history-- who ALSO hit 434 HRs doesn't make the Hall of Fame.
I still don’t understand how Andruw Jones doesn’t get more support for the HOF. Yeah, his career ended pretty quickly into his 30s but as Paul states he was almost without peer as an OF, in addition to 434 HRs.
As a Mets fan, I agree 100%. Andruw Jones is a 100% a HOFer. That many HR from a Gold Glove CF is pretty rare
As are 99 % of Stan's posts
That sounds more like the argument that got Jack Morris into the HOF- probably the worst decision among modern SP.
Shilling had a relatively short period of sustained brilliance, about 8 years between the age of 29 and 37. He had some ok to good seasons outside of that, but that the bulk of his HOF case was made in those 8 years.
HOF voters have shied away from short periods of excellence- see Don Mattingly for example. That is why Shillings case is weaker. Yes, in that 8 year period, he was as good as anyone in the game- but it really was 8 years of excellence, not 15 or 20.
That’s why even when we ignore the character clause, his case is not as strong as first appears.
Compare Shilling’s period of excellence with teammate Randy Johnson. Johnson also had a rough start to his career, but put up about 12 years of excellence with several other ok to good seasons. Roger Clemens is also a contemporary and put up many more years of excellence.
Look at Andy Pettitte as well. People forget that Pettitte won 19 post season games- he also won more games than Shilling- but didn’t have the big K totals. He didn’t get in.
Looking at Schilling on performance alone is not a clear cut case. The fact that Clemens is in the same class makes it harder to make that case.
Pettitte can't touch Schilling in the post-season. Schilling was 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA. And when there was an elimination game, he was 5-0 with a 1.34 ERA.
You do realize Schilling is one of four pitchers in history with 300K+ strikeouts in three seasons?
He has 216 wins with an ERA of 3.46, mostly in the steroid era. And a .50 ERA better than Jack Morris. Who can't touch Schilling either.
Schilling led the league twice in wins with 22 and 21. And finished second on year with 23. In led the league in complete games four times. In led the league in strikeouts two times. He finished 2nd in the Cy Young three times. He won 15 or more eight times.
He's a multi World Series winner to boot...
He's better than Mike Musina, who recently got in.
It's embarrassing...
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
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is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
Couldn’t agree more. Since when does schilling have to get in so soon? He’s a borderline HOFer. He can wait. Clemens and bonds completely dominated the sport before the steroid shit even surfaced. Roger Clemens? Barry Bonds? No one was better. They should have been in years ago. Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
Schilling (like Bonds and Clemens) only have one more year of ballot eligibility. What is this "so soon" stuff?
I agree Bonds and Clemens both should be in, they're among the greatest to ever play the game. They have not been voted in to this point because of PEDs. IOW, they cheated. To argue to the voters who vote against them saying "they were HOFers before they cheated" is a specious argument. Neither has ever come clean about their usage.
I don't agree with the voters, but if (and it's a big if) the voters are consistent and don't vote for Ortiz, Arod, Manny, Sosa, McGwire, etc. then at least I feel like there is some tangible principle (I think the PED no voters are sanctimonious assholes, but it's at least a reason).
Schilling is completely different.
if you think his numbers qualify him, he's basically being kept out for being an asshole and/or having different political views than the voters. Completely different than Bonds and Clemens. If Schilling kept his mouth shut (like Mussina) he would have probably been voted in before Mussina - and that is bullshit IMO. the HOF voters should not be the arbiters of character in this manner.
Fair, but annual award votes are player vs player, so even though a voter may be biased against an asshole player (like Belle) the voter can rationalize it to get themselves to believe another player had a better year.
The HOF is not player vs player per se (unless the voter uses all 10 ballot votes).
I this case for Schilling it's simply I'm not voting for him because I don't like him. And I think that's bullshit.
And for the record, I don't care if Schilling ever gets in, I just hate the sanctimonious holier than thou asshole voters.
Maybe he'll be like Jim Rice, another player I read the voters didn't like, who got in I believe on his final ballot appearance. But I think next year the ballot gets crowded so it's a longshot.
The Baseball Hall of Fame includes character as a factor, the Pro Football Hall of Fame doesn't. It's as simple as that. If OJ had been a baseball player I highly doubt he would be in.
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In comment 15135233 Producer said:
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is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
Couldn’t agree more. Since when does schilling have to get in so soon? He’s a borderline HOFer. He can wait. Clemens and bonds completely dominated the sport before the steroid shit even surfaced. Roger Clemens? Barry Bonds? No one was better. They should have been in years ago. Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
Schilling (like Bonds and Clemens) only have one more year of ballot eligibility. What is this "so soon" stuff?
I agree Bonds and Clemens both should be in, they're among the greatest to ever play the game. They have not been voted in to this point because of PEDs. IOW, they cheated. To argue to the voters who vote against them saying "they were HOFers before they cheated" is a specious argument. Neither has ever come clean about their usage.
I don't agree with the voters, but if (and it's a big if) the voters are consistent and don't vote for Ortiz, Arod, Manny, Sosa, McGwire, etc. then at least I feel like there is some tangible principle (I think the PED no voters are sanctimonious assholes, but it's at least a reason).
Schilling is completely different.
if you think his numbers qualify him, he's basically being kept out for being an asshole and/or having different political views than the voters. Completely different than Bonds and Clemens. If Schilling kept his mouth shut (like Mussina) he would have probably been voted in before Mussina - and that is bullshit IMO. the HOF voters should not be the arbiters of character in this manner.
As for the argument that they were HoF before they used, I can understand where you are coming from. I say it only to distinguish them from players who were borderline or worse and them saw careers take off unnaturally for enough years to put them over the top.
But, like you say, if the voters will be consistent and not vote for anyone suspected of use, then that is one thing. But, where do you draw the line? Is everyone from that era under suspiscion? I have long said the only player who would shock me to learn they were using is Rivera. Everyone else wouldn't faze me. With no failed tests for Bonds and Clemens, though, how are they viewed worse than some who actually failed tests?
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Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
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In comment 15135357 djm said:
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Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
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In comment 15135426 Mad Mike said:
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In comment 15135357 djm said:
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Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
I don't think he was better. Mussina has 53 more wins (in 2 less years), higher winning percentage, higher WAR, multiple Gold Gloves,
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The greatest football player ever IMO, but let’s face it. He’s kind of a piece of shit.
The Baseball Hall of Fame includes character as a factor, the Pro Football Hall of Fame doesn't. It's as simple as that. If OJ had been a baseball player I highly doubt he would be in.
I understand that. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with it. And doesn’t mean I agree that having different political opinions from journalists is poor character either
Anyone who doubts that we are now at a point where people are being censored or cancelled based on their political affiliations is living under a rock.
BINGO. If that fat fuck gets in they have let them all in.
If he does get in, what name he will use on plaque? Arias or Ortiz? Or Arias-Ortiz?
Because he's warm and cuddly?? Such a false, curated image.
Because he's warm and cuddly?? Such a false, curated image.
Yes, so true. Bullies reporters, screams out f-bombs to 40k people including children to "encourage Boston". Total asshole.
and he's so bad in the field he thought a 1B mitt was a fruit basket
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a baseball HOF without Bonds and Clemens is a total joke.
They both damaged the reputation of the game. Sucks, but they used performance enhancing drugs which is cheating. The sad part is that both had HOF talent without the enhancers.
The problem with going down that rabbit hole is the selective outrage at who cheated.
There are many HoF'ers who used enhancements and steroids. The difference is that some of them are "good guys" or they admitted fault.
Another puzzling part about Papi. He's not been contrite because he's never admitted to cheating.
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In comment 15135204 Producer said:
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a baseball HOF without Bonds and Clemens is a total joke.
They both damaged the reputation of the game. Sucks, but they used performance enhancing drugs which is cheating. The sad part is that both had HOF talent without the enhancers.
The problem with going down that rabbit hole is the selective outrage at who cheated.
There are many HoF'ers who used enhancements and steroids. The difference is that some of them are "good guys" or they admitted fault.
Another puzzling part about Papi. He's not been contrite because he's never admitted to cheating.
These points are exactly true. Either nobody is in, or every one is in. And who one voted for is never to be considered because that crap works both ways.
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
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In comment 15135204 Producer said:
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a baseball HOF without Bonds and Clemens is a total joke.
They both damaged the reputation of the game. Sucks, but they used performance enhancing drugs which is cheating. The sad part is that both had HOF talent without the enhancers.
The problem with going down that rabbit hole is the selective outrage at who cheated.
There are many HoF'ers who used enhancements and steroids. The difference is that some of them are "good guys" or they admitted fault.
Another puzzling part about Papi. He's not been contrite because he's never admitted to cheating.
Well, those guys are poor comparisons because they (rightly in my opinion) weren't considered HOF worthy by the writers. Schilling belongs in, but it's not because the veterans committee made mistakes on some inferior players.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
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In comment 15135313 Mad Mike said:
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In comment 15135312 Stan in LA said:
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Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
So in this country you're guilty if a jury finds you innocent.
Got it!
No jury found him innocent. Not guilty does not equate to innocence. It just means the jury didn’t find you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt
This was his ninth. He, Bonds and Clemens all have one more.
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Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Well, those guys are poor comparisons because they (rightly in my opinion) weren't considered HOF worthy by the writers. Schilling belongs in, but it's not because the veterans committee made mistakes on some inferior players.
I understand that. They are still in the HOF. I picked those two because they are well known, and shows that Schilling's WAR is the equivalent of two HOFers combined, no matter how they got in. Schilling is a no doubt HOFer.
Yes, it was on live TV, uncensored, and with kids watching, but maybe it's a Boston thing why I don't hate he said it (and I hate all Boston sports teams except the Celtics), but I had family run that marathon, many watching my cousin finish directly in the spot that was bombed (luckily for us he finished well before the bomb). So it's personal for me.
Anyway, Ortiz spoke from the heart before they took the field for the first home game after Patriots Day, uncensored, and said "...this is our fucking city. Nobody is going to dictate our freedom. We will not be intimidated"
and it was the only time I liked him.
So, hate Ortiz all you want, hate the double standard, don't hate the F-bomb or that he wasn't chastised for using it, it was the perfect words at the right time.
IMO.
and he shouldn't be in the HOF, definitely not before Arod, Clemens, Bonds, etc.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
Jeff Kent belongs
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In comment 15135426 Mad Mike said:
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In comment 15135357 djm said:
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Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
I don't think he was better. Mussina has 53 more wins (in 2 less years), higher winning percentage, higher WAR, multiple Gold Gloves,
I don't put a lot of emphasis on wins. Schilling came into the league as a relief guy/set-up for his first 3-4 years, so that probably impacts his win total. The WARs are close. But Mussina is slightly better.
But Schilling had more Ks, better ERA, better WHiP, and was just one of the greatest pitchers ever in the playoffs. Mussina was okay, but not in that stratosphere. And it's not like Schilling has a small playoff sample. It's robust with some of the best outings ever. With awards to compliment it - World Series MVP.
If I need a big game to win, I'm not choosing Mussina. I think most fans of baseball are going Schilling.
Schilling I'm less enthused about.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
All three of these players are hard evaluations because they had excellent primes, but huge dropoffs at some point in their 30s.
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massive segregationist and piece of shit. Oh, the irony.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
Jeff Kent belongs
Ehh, I lean no on Kent. I think Chase Utley was significantly better and I already see the writing on the wall for Utley. And as far as infielders go, Scott Rolen far more deserving as well.
to me for the HOF you need three things:
1. Stats (like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries
2. Accolades (again like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries)
3. Rings
If you don't have one of the three, the other two better be overwhelming
Belle has stats and accolades, no rings, and his stats aren't better enough vs his contemporaries (Juan Gonzalez for example), so to overcome his unlikability he needs to be overwhelming.
Schilling is, Belle is not. IMO. If Belle got in I would say it's a travesty, but he falls short in my vote.
Jose Canseco
@JoseCanseco
·
21h
Curt Schilling would be a disgrace to the Hall of Fame
The HOF is for great. Just my opinion.
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Albert Belle didn't get it.
to me for the HOF you need three things:
1. Stats (like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries
2. Accolades (again like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries)
3. Rings
If you don't have one of the three, the other two better be overwhelming
Belle has stats and accolades, no rings, and his stats aren't better enough vs his contemporaries (Juan Gonzalez for example), so to overcome his unlikability he needs to be overwhelming.
Schilling is, Belle is not. IMO. If Belle got in I would say it's a travesty, but he falls short in my vote.
Lots of world class assholes in the Hall of Fame.
I do.
My point was he should not be kept out because people don't like him.
to me he satisfies the three pillars I named:
He has the stats:
He led the league in wins multiple times
He led the league strikeouts multiple times, eclipsing 300 k's 3 different times (15th in career strikeouts)
He led the league in WHIP multiple times (he's had entire 200+ inning seasons where he allowed sub 1 WHIPs), etc.
He led the league in complete games 4 times (in the top 10 11 times)
He led the league in K/BB ratio 5 times (8th all time)
He is 65th all time in WAR (26th for pitchers) - that 65 is a list that includes pitchers and batters. 65th. Ahead of hall of famers like Jeter, Smoltz, Jim Palmer, Don Sutton, etc.
And wins is something as a Mets fan I have come around on being overrated for a pitcher evaluation. Jake deGrom won 2 CY Youngs without winning more than 11 games either time.
He has the accolades:
NLCS MVP
WS MVP
4 top 5 CY Young finishes, 3 2nd place finishes
6X all-star
He has the rings:
3 World Series rings (with two teams).
If that resume doesn't satisfy you, as long as you are consistent then fine, but don't keep him out because of his political view or lack of intelligence or because he's an asshole. That is my point.
I do.
My point was he should not be kept out because people don't like him.
to me he satisfies the three pillars I named:
He has the stats:
He led the league in wins multiple times
He led the league strikeouts multiple times, eclipsing 300 k's 3 different times (15th in career strikeouts)
He led the league in WHIP multiple times (he's had entire 200+ inning seasons where he allowed sub 1 WHIPs), etc.
He led the league in complete games 4 times (in the top 10 11 times)
He led the league in K/BB ratio 5 times (8th all time)
He is 65th all time in WAR (26th for pitchers) - that 65 is a list that includes pitchers and batters. 65th. Ahead of hall of famers like Jeter, Smoltz, Jim Palmer, Don Sutton, etc.
And wins is something as a Mets fan I have come around on being overrated for a pitcher evaluation. Jake deGrom won 2 CY Youngs without winning more than 11 games either time.
He has the accolades:
NLCS MVP
WS MVP
4 top 5 CY Young finishes, 3 2nd place finishes
6X all-star
He has the rings:
3 World Series rings (with two teams).
If that resume doesn't satisfy you, as long as you are consistent then fine, but don't keep him out because of his political view or lack of intelligence or because he's an asshole. That is my point.
I also agree that the only thing to keep him out should be that as a voter you just don't think his play warranted it. I think it is being oversimplified here as not getting in due to his political views. I don't buy that. He's not the first conservative to get into the HoF. However, he is a very controversial and outspoken figure who has said some extreme things. That is where I think he is getting hurt.
That being said, he's easily a HOFer in my book. One of the best big game pitchers ever. The 1-2 duo of Johnson/Schilling is hands down the best duo I've seen in my years of watching baseball, and it's really not close. It's amazing the Yanks even had a chance to win that '01 World Series going up against those 2 monsters.
I'd take Schilling over Mussina, although maybe I'm underrating Moose's Baltimore years in a brutal roided out AL East.
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Just because Schilling has a higher WAR than Jeter, doesn’t make him a better baseball player than Derek Jeter. Jeter was a no doubt first ballot Hall of Famer, Schilling is debatable. Great postseason pitcher, but his regular season numbers aren’t a slam dunk Hall of Famer.
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for comparison, Jeter was at 71.3 and was 1 vote short of unanimous. Rivera was unanimous at 56.3
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Just because Schilling has a higher WAR than Jeter, doesn’t make him a better baseball player than Derek Jeter. Jeter was a no doubt first ballot Hall of Famer, Schilling is debatable. Great postseason pitcher, but his regular season numbers aren’t a slam dunk Hall of Famer.
Didn't say he was a better baseball player.
I can't stand the guy and am happy to see him get some bad karma after all of the awful things that he has said and done over the years, but when it comes to performance between the lines, he he was a fantastic pitcher whose name is one of the first mentioned when thinking about postseason performance.
Proud of his hypocrisy enough to state it publically
Proud of his hypocrisy enough to state it publically
Sean McAdam (Boston sportswriter) said he wouldn't vote for Piazza (because of bacne) but planned to vote for Ortiz and he said that proudly and publicly in a twitter response to me.
Tony Massarotti (Boston sports radio/newspaper personality) responded to me on twitter he wasn't voting for Piazza because he didn't think his numbers warranted inclusion, not because of PED's (LOL) but planned to vote for Ortis first time he was eligible.
So they will keep a guy who never tested positive out of the HoF because of suspicion, but not the other guy!!
Reasonable.
I'll bet he's one of those Sawx media assholes who has seriously discussed Varitek as a Hall of Famer because of his "leadership".
Because it never looked like a Pillsbury Doughboy of the Dominican Republic EVER lifted a weight...
Schilling isn’t be marginalized for his politics, he’s being left off the guest list because he’s an insane asshole.
Because it never looked like a Pillsbury Doughboy of the Dominican Republic EVER lifted a weight...
He certainly did something to transform from his alter-ego David Arias into a HOF candidate. The Twins, who were about as good as any franchise in MLB in identifying talent in the early '00s, let him go, and it wasn't especially shocking at the time - he was a pretty good but nothing special platoon bat.
And then he landed in a Boston clubhouse that had a number of guys who were conveniently skipped over in the Mitchell Report and goes on to have a HOF career while his body balloons in a way that typically happens more in Stamford at WWE HQ. Could be that he discovered clam chowder and the delicious pasta on the north end, or it could be that he got a little extra help along the way.
The only people who willfully ignore the very strong likelihood of Ortiz being a juicer are Sox fans and NESN talking heads, and even they, in their heart of hearts, know that his fairy tale story is mostly inflated.
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did he lift anything other than a spoon, knife, and fork?
Because it never looked like a Pillsbury Doughboy of the Dominican Republic EVER lifted a weight...
He certainly did something to transform from his alter-ego David Arias into a HOF candidate. The Twins, who were about as good as any franchise in MLB in identifying talent in the early '00s, let him go, and it wasn't especially shocking at the time - he was a pretty good but nothing special platoon bat.
And then he landed in a Boston clubhouse that had a number of guys who were conveniently skipped over in the Mitchell Report and goes on to have a HOF career while his body balloons in a way that typically happens more in Stamford at WWE HQ. Could be that he discovered clam chowder and the delicious pasta on the north end, or it could be that he got a little extra help along the way.
The only people who willfully ignore the very strong likelihood of Ortiz being a juicer are Sox fans and NESN talking heads, and even they, in their heart of hearts, know that his fairy tale story is mostly inflated.
So they will keep a guy who never tested positive out of the HoF because of suspicion, but not the other guy!!
Reasonable.